prosecute you. if you make a false claim, we will prosecute you. >> 0 e so, kasie, a little bit of preview of what we're going to hear from sarah sanders when she does, in fact, come to the podium. but bougttom line, i think she' going to get pressed on why 9 president doesn't do what lindsey graham says he can do which is end the policy now. the president says he hates the fact kids are getting separated from their parents, kasie. >> if he hates it so much, he could, as lindsey graham said, just pickup the phone. kristen welker at the white house for us. thank you very much. that brings this hour to a close for me. thank you for watching as always. "deadline white house" with my friend nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. donald trump may finally be reaping what he has sowed by reducing every debate to black and white. good versus evil. today he finds himself on the wrong side of history, and at odds with former first lady laura bush, former first lady michelle obama, a united and

energized democratic party and a few republicans in this country who are still in possession of their spines and their souls. the trump administration today doubling down on its policy of forcibly separating children from their parents at the border. former first lady laura bush in an extraordinarily rare rebuke of a policy and a sitting president, accurately describes the trump policy as, quote, warehousing children in converted box stores and writes, quote, i live in a border state. i appreciate the need to enforce and protect our international boundaries, but this zero tolerance policy is cruel. it is immoral and it breaks my heart. she adds, these images are eerily reminiscent of the japanese internment camps in world war ii, now one of the most shameful episodes in u.s. history. hayden goes further. comparing the scenes at the boarder to nazi camps.

this is birkenau, then germany, now poland. no one can believe civilized behavior is guaranteed. in response the trump administration deflecting blame, but owning the hardline policy. >> immigration is the fault and all of the problems that we're having, because we cannot get them to sign legislation. we cannot get them even to the negotiating table. and i say it's very strongly the democrats' fault. you see about child separation, you see what's going on there. but just remember, a country without borders is not a country at all. we need borders. we need security. we need safety. they could be murderers and thieves and so much else. so, we want a safe country and it starts with the borders. and that's the way it is. >> or they could be infants torn from their mother's arms.

we'll hear how the press secretary answers questions on this any moment. but first to get us started nbc's jacob soboroff is outside the border patrol central processing center in texas where he's been doing remarkable reporting on this story from the beginning. white house reporter from the washington post ashley parker joins us and here at the table msnbc political analyst michael steel, former chairman of the rnc, eli stokols, white house reporter for the washington times. we started with laura bush, let me start with you, michael steele. as a sitting first lady, laura bush rarely engaged in policy or politics. and at the depths of george w. bush's least popular hours as president, her public approval remained i think in the high 90s. so she has influence and she uses her voice very rarely. what did you think when you saw her comment? >> i thought it was a very powerful rebuke and i thought it was a profound moment in terms of national republican voice

that, given all the folks who have titles and positions in washington and around the country, hers as a former first lady stood out the loudest and strongest and quite honestly the brave est to push back what is a reprehensible policy. and it spoke in a way that reminded us of how strong she was as a first lady, going back to those dark days you were talking about in the bush term when the numbers weren't there. but also why she had so much respect because she would oftentimes in critical moments bring that mother, that sense of woman, a parent, and someone who has a soul to a particular situation as she did with her comments today. >> ashley parker, i think the other way to describe it is she spoke to america's humanity. and i remember after 9/11 she was the first figure who went out. she went on television the next morning and talked to parents about how to talk to their children about not being afraid.

hers was the first voice that we presented to the country the morning after 9/11. i wonder if there is a single person you've come in contact with in the white house who has any discomfort with what's happening at the border. >> yes, they do, or some of them do. and if you sort of watch everyone in this white house, even their public comments quite carefully, you see they are trying to not break with the president who has a very tough on immigration line, but also trying to reflect their own kind of personal view because, as laura bush articulated so well, it's not just an issue of politics or policy, but one of moral conscience. and so you do have some people going out there, even publicly and kind of saying, you know, you even saw the first lady, for instance, saying that families should not be separated from their children. parents should not be separated from their children. you saw kellyanne conway, counselor to the president, trying to hedge a little bit and

saying that, you know, no one really thinks this is a good idea. of course that's not purely true. there are some people in the administration who also conversely but privately say this is a good idea. this is the rule of law. this is working as a deterrent. so, it is mixed, but this is an incredibly difficult issue for them on a level of, again, politics, policy and humanity. and it's something they are all grappling with how to handle it. >> jacob soboroff, you've moved from the facility to the border. tell us the story of the human toll. obviously the most important part of this story. >> look, what i saw yesterday, nicolle, and that's what stuck with me, is the inside of this processing center at the mcallen border patrol station. this is the epicenter of where this is all going down. the conversation that's happening back in washington so often is disconnected from the reality and the facts on the ground. and the ground in this instance is mcallen, texas. this is the place with the most

border patrol apprehensions. it happens there at the bridge behind me almost every single day. by the virtue of the traffic that comes through here, that means the most child separations are now happening here. and we're looking at some of those pictures on the screen of the blankets and cage fences. the conversation that there are no cages, there are cages. i saw them with my own eyes. they look like dog kennels. there is no other way to describe them. there are children alone in them and increasing number of children alone in them as a result of the trump administration policy to separate children from their parents. it's not only putting the children in h.h.s. facilities alone, it's putting stress on staff at the centers. that's what border patrol agents are telling me. there were four social care workers in one center where we're looking at the cages on the screen. four social care workers left alone with children without their parents. it is a building crisis in slow motion real time. >> jacob, can you debunk a few things swirming around on social

media and other places? people are asking where are the girls and where are the youngest children. >> we can't tell you for sure w because of department of health and human services which administers the shelters let us into two. one in el cajon, california, and one in brownsville one hour away from here where i was late last week. the one in brownsville was only boys between the ages of 10 years old and 17 years old. the one in el cajon was also young boys for the most part. at least that's what nbc news saw when we went in there. so, health and human services, which by all accounts offers pretty good service to these children and pretty respectable facilities, just hasn't been as transparent as we would like them to be. granted they are dealing with an influx of people, 11,000 kids plus are in their care right now and that number is only going up. but the world wants to know where are the toddlers that this program is separating? where are the young girls that this program is separating?

we have not seen them -- i've seen the boys with my own eyes but i haven't seen the girls and i haven't seen the toddlers and nobody has let me get in to see that yet. >> something else i've seen in the coverages is they are not permitted to touch these children. is that true? >> it is true. this is all very complicated because these kids are effectively incarcerated and the rules, even if they're in a shelter by name, are bound by, you know, certain strict policies. and one of them is designed to protect children from sexual assault when they're incarcerated. and so that policy was never designed to be administered in a scenario where children are separated from their parents as a matter of systematic policy of presidential administration. when you have little kids ripped away from their parents and their care givers can't give them a hug or pick them up or even change their diaper if that's something they need, because of a policy designed for something completely different, you get into this situation like the one we're in right now which again, by all accounts, including medical professionals,

it will create extreme trauma that lasts for a lifetime in these things. it was a sickening thing for me as a father of a 2 1/2 year old to see these kids and know some may sit there 24 hours before they're picked up and their parents are gone to go to health and human services. >> jacob, stay up with us and jump in if we get -- if we stray from any of the facts. i think we should stay on the facts. they're appalling enough and we hope sarah huckabee sanders will have answers. we appreciate your fact checking that. let me read a little more of laura bush's piece. america prides itself being a moral nation, sending humanitarian to places with disasters or famine or war. we pride ourselves people should be seen for the content of their character not the comer of their skin. we pride ourselves on acceptance. if we are that country it is our obligation to reunite these detained dhil children with their parents and stop

separating them in the first place. that is the opposite of what is happening. what jacob described is the incarceration of children and they're diapers aren't getting changed because they're being treated lielk criminals they can't touch. >> they talk about this in clinical terms, a matter of law and order, we're enforcing the law, the laws have been on the books a long time. they don't want to he cfocus on children. there is something to notice. this is not a president obviously who has been moved or really seemed to care about carrying the mantle of moral leadership that has defined this presidency up numerator the 45th president. it hasn't been moved by claims, we're america, we need to lead and set an example for the rest of the world. but he is a president who maybe more than any of his predecessors is a media anything, a television president. this presidency has been compared to a television show and if anything is capable of moving them to relent, you already see the president changing his story first it was the democrats' fault, he also said today we're doing this because we don't want the influx

of migrants we've seen in europe. he's starting to change his story. and if anything will i think move this president and this administration, or perhaps republicans in congress to come up with a solution, is the fact all of this is now being broadcast wall to wall on television. people are seeing the images. it's harder to ignore the fact that we're talking about really young kids here. and i think, you know, even some of the statements that were sent out today, ben sass, republican senator from nebraska. he included that still image of that little girl next to the car in tears. so did john kasich in his statement. republicans who are opposed to this policy appreciate the power of images to change the narrative to effect change and this president, for all the things we say and know about him, he definitely is susceptible to what he knows is the prevalent media narrative on television and reactive to that oftentimes. >> but, doug, he's not reactive to the facts and the fact is this is not the law. this was a policy announced by jeff sessions. >> right. >> a few weeks ago to start separating children. this is not the law.

>> no. >> the laws -- go ahead, jacob. >> yeah, nicolle. not only that, but the basis for this policy, which is denying as even a policy, he's just not correct. he tweeted out today, we don't want the violence spilling over into the united states. i'm paraphrased. we don't want the violence happening south of the border spilling over into the united states and terrorizing us like it is on the south side of the border. there is no doubt mexico is extremely violent, the most violent here ever. if he took the time to read the reports from his own drug enforcement agency, the dea, he would know they've said year after year, spill over violence is not a considerable problem that happens in the united states. so, to use that as justification for incarcerating little children, separating them from their parents, is just simply not based in fact. it's something that he made up and he put on his twitter account today. >> i think part of that is his effort to try to desensitize the public, in particular his supporters to these images that we are seeing more and more so

on tv. and that's -- you know, he does a very good job when he needs to, he does it against the media when the media is coming after him. he makes them into fake news. he goes after the mueller investigation. you know, all of these people who could be a threat to donald trump, he tries to demonize. that's why he talks about these kids in this way. it's almost like in an inhumane way, they're animals. >> he's making it so the public can't distinguish between the children and the ms-13 gang. there being blood stained killing fields on long island. >> his voters are skeptical about the russia investigation. they're skeptical about the media, but they are not stupid and they still have eyes and they still have families and they still have kids. this feels to me like the kind of story that might make them choose between what is apparent to their own eyes and what's coming out of the president's

twitter feed. >> i think that's a great point. we'll have to see, but in talking, for instance, one lens to view this through is in talking to democrats before we saw this crisis. democrats would say that immigration was, for instance, a tricky issue for them, especially in some of these house districts. there were constituents who did like what the president was doing, say on ms-13, his rhetoric on sanctuary cities, when you vote for trump, someone who introduced the muslim ban on campaign, you're getting someone who uses tough, harsh offensive language on immigration and people liked it. and talking to them since this crisis, it seems this may be the one blanket issue on immigration where it just goes too far. and those images and these stories, they cut across party lines and even some of the president's loyal supporters are coming out and saying, this isn't right. and so, again, we don't know still exactly how this will play out. and if the president will change his tune, but i think you are

right in that this may be one of these rare galvanizing issues where president trump can no longer defy political gravity. >> i want your thought on that. i want to give you two more things to respond to, though. "the new york times" reporting for george w. bush and barack obama the idea of crying children torn from their parents arms is too inhumane to embrace this political policy. more evidence this is not the law. this is a trump choice. let's talk about that, but i also want to show you kiersten nielsen. this is secretary of homeland security i guess rapidly responding to laura bush. let's watch. >> for many in the press, in congress and advocacy groups over the last few weeks, that we at d.h.s. are intentionally doing things that are unhumanitarian, that are cruel, immoral and disgraceful. we are doing none of those things. it is important to note that these minors are very well taken care of. don't believe the press.

>> i'm sorry, how about believing -- >> believe you? >> how about our own eyes. laura bush or secretary nielsen, i'm going with laura bush. ouvriere government should not be in the business of warehousing children in conslerted box stores or making plans to place them in tent cities in a desert. >> okay. so, don't believe the press reports. as our colleague jacob has been out there and reported, i believe last week, gave us the narrative of being informed by the officials there to smile at the children so that way you can show them they're not animals. okay. if they're not -- >> they don't feel like animals in cages. >> thank you. so, if that's what the press is being told when they're coming in to take a look at these facilities, to smile at the children so they don't feel like they're animals in cages, what does that tell you about the situation these kids are in? that the people who are overseeing this would think that those kids get the impression that they're animals in cages. >> jacob, you want to try to

answer that? >> on top of all of that, it doesn't matter as one official said to me, it doesn't matter if you put these children in a five star hotel in a caribbean island. after they're separated from their parents which is what this policy is all about, they're going to have trauma that lasts a lifetime. you could have them in disneyland every single day. you could do whatever you wanted was their favorite thing in the world. but being ripped from your parents when you're a minor is not something that you will ever forget. >> that's exactly right. jacob, let me follow on that with a quote in the washington post. from a pediatrician making a similar point to the one you're making who says, inside a room dedicated to toddlers was a little girl not older than two screaming and pounding her fist on a matt. what woman tried to give her toys and books to calm her down but even that shelter worker seemed frustrated. as much as she wanted to console the little girl she couldn't touch, hold or pick her up and let her know everything would be all right. that was the rule. they're not allowed to touch the children.

your broader point is even if they changed the rule, what these children want is their mothers and fathers. >> at the end of the day -- by the way, this system has been in place during the obama administration as well. it was put into place as part of a court ruling. this is not the first time people have been unhappy with this system. the system itself should be reformed. i heard from a former obama administration official that told me, it's fair game to criticize h.h.s. and the way they care for the children and the situation they put themselves in. but it's immigration policy that puts them into the shelters. and donald trump today has put the most extreme piece of immigration policy that we've probably seen when it comes to young children. possibly ever in place, that's forced them into these shelters and exacerbated every problem that has ever existed in these shelters before today. like i said, not just during his administration. >> so, eli, i've asked this question after charlottesville, who quits? i've asked this question at other points in the

administration. who resigns? do you think anybody quits over this policy? do you think there is a parent who can't fathom what their policy is doing to these children? do you think there is any mother or father of a child who says, i can't be a part of this and walks out the door? >> there may be, but so far we've asked that question before as you point out, after charlottesville especially. and we haven't seen anybody quit in protest. >> why not? >> i wouldn't hold your breath. i think people decide they're going to work for donald trump and they're working in the white house -- >> how about ivanka trump? wasn't her whole brand -- puke -- children and girls and women? >> it was. >> what happened to that? >> this is where we are. it's 18 months in. nobody is going to persuade this president, nudge this president to a different policy. donald trump is going to do what donald trump wants to do. he's in a much more unilateral mode 18 months into his presidency. a lot of advisors have left, haven't been replaced, most of them citing burn out, not in protest. the white house, the staff has

gotten smaller, communications staff is smaller. the president is operating almost in a vakument. yes, he still gets advice from other people outside the white house. he still has staff and counselors there. but he is impossible to control. you know when he tweets in all caps, change the law, when he's talking to change, as jacob talked about, there does need to be change to immigration law in this country. democrats, republicans some of them, have tried to do that for years. there are a couple bills moving this week. but the pron -- what we see is a president instituting a policy of incredible cruelty as a piece of leverage to try to move that debate along. and i don't know if that's going to do it. again, hanging overall this you have an election coming up in november. i've spoken to republicans in congress. would like to see this resolved now as opposed to continuing to play out in the media as we get closer to november. but there's just not much of a climate for agreement. just as the far-right of the republican party has shutdown immigration compromise bills going back to the obama administration, it seems unlikely that they're suddenly going to give in and be moved

because of this. >> all right. we're going to sneak in a break. we're going to watch how white house press core tries to keep this administration's feet to the flames in the briefing. that's on the other side of the break. i want sta thank jacob soboroff who has done some of the most important reporting during the trump administration. ashley parker, you, too, thank you for spending time with us. both of you come back if anything dramatic happens in this hour. you never know. we'll be right back. inds? or plan for tomorrow? at kpmg, we believe success requires both. with our broad range of services and industry expertise, kpmg can help you anticipate tomorrow and deliver today. kpmg.

how do you justify this policy? >> it's zero tolerance. i don't think you have to justify it. it's a crime to come across illegally and children get separated. i hate to say it that's the law

and he's enforcing the law. >> ay-ay-ay. nearly 200 minors a day are being detained in the united states. many fleeing unsafe homes. many of them ripped from their parents. and steve bannon who says he speaks for the president's base says there's nothing to justify. joining our conversation now, heidi, national political reporter for nbc news. heidi, what are you picking up from your sources about the ripple effects? we made a list and it took us 1 1/2 seconds of the republicans who have spoken up. susan collins, ben sass, lindsey graham, orrin hatch, sort of, and speaker ryan. >> and lindsey graham was just again at the stakeout in the senate reemphasizing that at any time the president can stop this by picking up the phone. i'm also monitoring how this frankly is playing out on fox news and watching some of the anchors there repeatedly correct lawmakers who are coming on and calling this the law. i'm picking up actually a subtle hint of panic by some of these

members because you are starting to get more, what we call in the world of journalism, color coming out of these holding pens. nicolle, you just saw coming across the web a pro publica audio. i'm sure you're going to play it at some point, but it is heart wrenching. it has little children and you can tell any mother, any person can tell the sound of a baby wailing. some of them crying so hard that they're gasping for breath, being separated from their parents. so, we are starting to get more details and color coming out of these holding areas. and there is no republican who wants to stand behind this policy. and that is why you're seeing the president distort this and say that this is the democrats forcing him to do this. let me break that down for you. the president is trying to put this off on the democrats because he is using this as leverage as a negotiating tool. i take you back to earlier this year, last year when the

president canceled daca in order to use that program as leverage in order to get his wall. that didn't work. the courts intervened and so we saw in april of this year the administration now enact a new policy of criminalizing asylum seekers which by then necessitates them being separated from their children. >> michael steele, i feel stupid for how often i ask this question, but what's wrong with the republicans? >> they've just been -- they've been trump-etized. >> they're traumatized? >> the reality of it is they think from a base standpoint, i want to go back to, i don't think this is as much concern for a lot of the hard core trump base out there. they like this. they think this is something -- i mean, they don't like the fact that these folks are coming here. they think that they're -- >> but these are not legal -- these -- >> that's why the president has characterized it the way he has. he has taken the concept of

asylum, which is one form of legal response by the united states, and merged it into a criminal action coming over the border illegally, which is a different response by the federal government. he's made them both the same. so there's no difference in this administration's point of view between someone who is running away from persecution, seeking asylum, bringing their children to a safer space, than someone who gets up this morning, says, i'm going to go steal a job in the united states and going to cross the border illegally. >> even those people commit fewer crimes than people born here. i guess the other thing is this was a plan hiding in plain sight. they said they wanted to do this and now they're doing it. >> they're doing t. >> so, any walkback would be remarkable. this was their plan all along. let's watch. >> our department of homeland security personnel going to separate the children from their moms and dad's? >> yes, i am considering in order to deter more movement

along this terribly dangerous network. i am considering exactly that. >> if you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> what do you say to people who worry about the impact of separating parents and children? >> don't break the law. i mean, that's why they're separated because they're breaking the law. >> eli? >> i mean, no apologies, right? that is them saying, look, that is our policy and here's why. we think it's a deterrent. the fact it is unnecessarily cruel to these children -- >> but these are not -- >> consequence to the people you just heard there. >> they are -- most of these folks aren't smuggling in children in a way where like these children are at risk from their parents. to your point, they're either coming in for asylum or they're just together. and what's really amazing to me is trump just acts as though he's powerless to do anything

about this, right? this is the one thing he can't, you know, in his mind he can't do. and he's blaming the democrats -- >> he can only do it if the democrats help him do it. >> as if the house doesn't have enough republicans in the house to do -- if they needed to do anything legislatively, they don't. >> they don't. >> that's right. i guess i want to talk about weakness and smallness. for a guy so obsessed with the size of everything, this is just such an extraordinary display of political impotence, political powerlessness, of small man, small hands, small everything. why is he so into it? >> because it's power for him. >> over whom? 2-year-olds? >> over the whole system. i mean, as eli noted, that circle within the house has become a circle within a circle within a circle. i mean, the smaller that crowd around him becomes, the more power the president is able to exercise because the lines are sort of breaking up and to control the outcome -- you have

the chief of staff saying i'm considering this. you would think there would be some kind of check inside the system that goes, wait a minute, i don't know if this is going to play well on tv every night. >> not only play well. i don't know how this is going to go well. i mean, i don't know if we're going to trauma ties a generation of children who came to the country seeking asylum. i don't know if he's ever been to the statue of liberty. i'm guessing he doesn't know what it says. is there no one around him who can say this is the most unamerican politically powerless petty, small, impotent thing a president of this country could ever do? >> well, let's tell them what lady liberty says. she says bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses. in both she is called mother of exiles. and that is why this issue, i have to beg to differ a little with michael. i think republicans are very nervous in terms of how this is going to play out because we the media are going to keep pushing for disclosure and we're going to keep pushing to get inside those facilities and more and more of those tapes are going to

come forward. and that's why you have the -- such a unique coalition. you have the american academy of pediatrics, the head of that saying this is basically tantamount to child abuse. you have the religious community uniting, catholic bishops, the methodist church, southern baptist convention all condemning this. and frankly, a lot of republican women with laura bush leading the way on this. i think are being made to feel very uncomfortable. and so, new york city political -- no, politically it's not going to play out well. d.h.s. is estimating we could get up to 20,000 by august being held like this. it is not going to be pretty once these facilities reach capacity and overcapacity given the conditions that they're already living in, sleeping on cement block floors that they are calling the ice box. >> kristen welker joins us now from the briefing room where sarah huckabee sanders' daily briefing has been pushed back

again. are you getting any explanation, kristen, for the delay? >> finally we are, nicolle. we are told there's going to be yet another delay. it's now going to start at 5:00 in about a half hour from now. the reason for that, because d.h.s. secretary kiersten nielsen is going to come to the podium, will be joining sarah sanders to briefer us about the crisis that is frankly engulfing this administration. the fact you've had this briefing delayed multiple times today underscores the fact the white house is trying to deal with mounting calls for the president to end this zero tolerance policy now. and they're struggling with their messaging so secretary nielsen is going to be taking the lead and answering our questions. i would anticipate questions about the border crisis will dominate this briefing, certainly that is what is on our minds today. i wouldn't be surprised if my colleagues were armed with a number of questions as well for the homeland security secretary who has been defending this, who

said there is no policy of separating parents and children at the border. the bottom line, though, nicolle as you've been reporting, as we've been reporting here on msnbc, this is happening because the attorney general jeff sessions announced a new zero tolerance policy several months ago that has ultimately led to and prompted the separations of these families at the border, nicolle. >> kristen, secretary nielsen's regime there has been fraught. there have been reports of her being scrutinized by this president, yelled at by this president in meetings. there's widespread reporting that she's viewed suspiciously for her work for george w. bush, the 43rd president, and yet she is the tip of the spear in defending and advocating a policy that separates children from their mothers, children as young as infants and toddlers. talk about secretary nielsen as a figure in this conversation, in this debate and at this hour in the trump administration. is her job safe or is she trying to sure up her job security with

had? >> i think that's certainly a good question. she was someone who was really heralded by the chief of staff john kelly who very much wanted to see her in that position, replacing him when he did become the chief of staff. it's our understanding that president trump had his eye on a number of different people before he ultimately did agree to appoint secretary nielsen. skp and i think there has been some tension behind the scenes for all the reasons you cite, nicolle. there is no doubt this is a significant test for the homeland security secretary. i think that is part of why you're seeing the messaging that we are seeing from her. she has been very defensive, effectively saying, look, if you don't want this to happen, don't break the laws, don't cross the border illegally. that has been her messaging. she's dug in on that. i anticipate we'll hear some version of that when she comes to the podium. but, nicolle, there is no doubt img this is a critical test for her, for this administration. >> it's one i would hope to fail.

i want to watch and watch you ask her questions. thanks for spending time with us. after the break, another example of the most bomb bass tick cable news host calling the shots in donald trump's ongoing war on justice. i brought you something. okay. whaa! am i dead? not yet kid. aahh! if i don't make it back, remember you're the one that made me come here. i'll be alright. [ roar ] rated pg-13. today, there are more sensors on our planet than people. we're putting ai into everything, and everything into the cloud. it's all so... smart. but how do you work with it? ask this farmer. he's using satellite data to help increase crop yields. that's smart for the food we eat. at this port, supply chains are becoming more transparent with blockchain.

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(music stops) (splash) (thud) (bell ringing, applause) remember, stork and these guys are not fbi agents. they're the equivalent of three and four-star generals. this is the leadership of the federal bureau of investigation. >> comey and his fbi kabal fixed a case. hillary not indicted for her crimes, yet an effort to frame donald trump for no crime. >> their hatred of trump, they weaponize the fbi against donald trump. >> obstructionist democrats like pelosi, schumer and schiff stare into the cameras and turn truth on its head. they're not real democrats. they're demon rats. that's what i said, demon rats. >> i'm not saying bob mueller is not a good guy. he's a combat marine.

i kind of admire him. but the underpinnings of his investigation, we have to go back and see how it started. >> we're going to get to the news in one second. demon rat? i can never get her name, what's that? pie row, pirro, jeannine pirro. and who are demon rats? >> clearly a figment of her active imagination. >> is she on every night? >> every night. this is what it comes down to. this is the new space we find ourselves in where you don't, you don't argue over the policy, you don't argue over the principle. you categorize and blame people and name call them and try to shame them. and, you know, we'll see how the american people respond to all of this. because at the end of the day, folks, it's on you. this is your watch. >> if you're innocent why do you need people like those two to smear a combat veteran like bob mueller? >> that's just driving ratings

and dollars over at fox. this is feeding their particular beast that they have created so they've got to keep feeding this beast which is why i go back to the point -- and don't mean to disagree with my friend heidi. establishment response is one thing. you're beginning to feel a little of the pressure. but rank and file republicans who are part of that 42% -- 85% of whom, right, are republicans supporting the president -- they don't mind any of this. they're locked and loaded on this stuff. they love the way they are being fed this and that's the dangerous part for the party. >> let me let heidi respond. >> it's not just about ratings. it's actually pretty strategic. there was just a poll out today showing there has been a ten-point drop in the percentage of americans who think that the mueller investigation is fair. so, they're doing it because it's working and it has a strategic end.

in the end, who will be the jury when mueller issues his findings? congress. congress will be the jury and what we've seen out of this congress is that they are scared of their own shadow. >> yep. >> and they will not act if the poll -- polls don't tell them to. so, if at the end of the investigation, you know, mueller has the smoking gun equivalent of a watergate tapes, this congress may not act because the republicans don't come to donald trump and tell him like the republicans did during watergate told nixon, it's time to go because they have this, this far-right media echo chamber that is shaping public opinion which will tell these members of congress whether to take action or not. >> let me bring into the conversation barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney now msnbc contributor. i want to read you what the president tweeted this morning. so, he's tweeting about the investigation, tweeted, comey gave strzok, the fbi agent in question and attacked by those

two that we just showed in those clips, his marching orders. mueller is comey's best friend. witch hunt. the fact check there is that bob mueller was the person who fired the agent in question or removed him from the mueller probe upon learning about some of the political views expressed in his personal texts. so, talk to me about the broader war on the justice department aided and abetted and in my view directed by fox news, and the president's role in it. >> clearly the president is trying to do what we see defendants do frequently, which is to try to attack the investigators, put them on trial, to undermine confidence in any outcome they can have because if there's bad news that comes out of it, well, we can't trust them anyway. i think that robert mueller is someone who ignores all of this noise, who keeps his head down and continues to make progression progress in his investigation and tunes all this out. it is an unusual investigation. as you say, at the end of the day will be members of congress and not an impartial jury.

so, some of that that goes on may influence the outcome at the end of the day. but i think if you're robert mueller and his crew, all you can do is to try to pursue the facts and the law, put together a sound case and hope that at the earned of the day that will carry the day. >> barbara, we're so glad to have you today. i want to see if i can get your response to some testimony on capitol hill from the d.o.j., i.g. and christopher wray, the current fbi director. let's watch and talk about it on the other side. >> do you have any reason to believe that this investigation has been discredited? >> senator, as i said to you last month and as i said before, i do not believe special counsel mueller is on a witch hunt. >> what did special counsel mueller do when he learned about these statements by mr. strzok? >> we informed him on july 27 of last year, of our first findings of these texts. we subsequently gained more, but my understanding is within a week or two of that date, he had been removed from the

investigation. >> barbara mcquade, sounds like a pretty aggressive and speedy response, another example of bob mueller doing the right thing. >> yeah, and i think that the i.g. report that came out last week really had no impact whatsoever on robert mueller's investigation. the one commonality is that peter strzok was involved in both the clinton investigation and then for a while in the russia investigation. and so i'm sure there are critics who will try to use that to suggest the entire investigation, therefore, is tainted in some way. that really does presiden't hav in reality when you think about all the different processes involved in a case. review by a grand jury before indictment can be returned. review by prosecutors of agent's work. i just don't think one rogue agent can take down a sitting president with all of the checks and balances that are in place. and his removal now a year or so ago, and so i think that it's a p.r. spin, but once we have all

of the protections in place to review a case like this, i think that peter strzok's role, whatever it was in this case, will be marginalized. >> so, eli, we spend so much time talking about the 40% and talking about the spineless republicans protecting the president pr impeachment. what about the 60%? we talk about it like all is lost. i'm so sick of the base will never leave, they're brain washed by judge judy or whatever her name is. but what about the 60% and when things aren't going well? it's more like 60, 65% of americans who are deeply skeptical of the president, more skeptical all the time, and bob mueller, he's not a participant in the daily news cycle. i accept and believe heidi's poll numbers, but bob mueller doesn't play these games. he's simply going to wrap up an investigation and he may present something so compelling that the 60% all tell a friend and it's more like 70% of the country who thinks that the president may be in deep do-do. >> the 60% or whatever it is you're talking about are not

proportionately represented because of gerrymandering. republicans control congress. that may change after november. but what you have when you step back, what we're talking about here is propaganda, whether it's jeannine pirro on fox news, whether it's the president wrongly interpreting, overinterpreting the report. see, strzok proved all the fbi is biased. see, comey acted the wrong way, he clearly -- they're trying to paint everything with that brush. it's obviously false. but propaganda is never reality based -- >> it's not believed by a majority of americans. >> it is believed by enough. it's believed by enough. i think part of the thing propaganda does is disspirited and numbs a lot of other people so maybe they don't vote in the election. they get sick and depressing the turnout and participation among a lot of those people. correct, the gaslighting, you get so disoriented they don't show up to vote. >> i don't think they're disoriented. they're paying close attention. >> i think democrats are going

to show up to vote. >> 60% isn't all democrats. republicans win elections by winning over independents in 5 or 6 states where you and i spent a hell of a lot of time. >> yes, indeed. >> i don't buy it, you smear mueller on twitter and all is lost. i don't think this has started. >> trump is dealing with his own reality, right. he has his own reality which is driven by the lies that he tells the american people about the i.g. report exonerating him -- >> himself, about his weight. he lies to himself. >> it's about 3,000, politifact has 3,000 lies in 500 days. unbelievable. you have steve bannon going on this week saying that he's never lied. it's just -- it's unbelievable. you could start with the first day of the administration where he said the crowd size was more than obama's inauguration, right? >> exactly.

>> here's the thing. what happens is we as the public, we have to be better about this, we get exhausted from all of the nonsense and the lies. >> i don't get exhausted. we treat people like they're stupid. my first assignment here was to go out and to go out and embed with the trump voters 100 days after the election, ones who had voted for obama twice. they were really looking for change. i don't think they're blind, and i don't think they're dumb. i think they're growing impatient with the russia investigation, but i don't think this is all preordained and i don't think it's over yet. >> i would also point out we don't know what's going to happen now that the immigration crisis is playing out on tv. but his approval ticked up today to 45%, almost the high of his presidency, that of course coming after the summit in north korea. i don't disagree voters are paying attention, most more plugged than past administrations. i think the reason they are responding to a criminal investigation with a political response is because of just -- >> they're in trouble. they're in trouble.

>> i have to cut this off. we have some breaking news. the audiotape from inside the u.s. customs and border protection facility we were told about in which children can be heard wailing. we're getting our first listen to that. we'll play it for you on the other side. i think it's why we've been doing this...forever. my dad has roots in the mountains of northern mexico. home to the strongest runners in the universe. my dad's ancestors were african bantu. i bet they told the most amazing stories. with twice the detail of other tests... ...ancestrydna can show dad where he's from- and strengthen the bonds you share. it's only $69. give it to dad for father's day. let's take a look at some numbers: it's only $69. 4 out of 5 people who have a stroke, their first symptom... is a stroke. 80 percent of all strokes and heart disease? preventable. and 149 dollars is all it takes to get screened and help take control of your health. we're life line screening... and if you're over 50... call this number, to schedule an appointment...

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breaking news this hour. nbc news has obtained audio first put out by propublica from inside a customs border and protection facility.

it was given us to a civil rights attorney who said she received it from a client who recorded it, and that client is remaining anonymous for fear of retaliation. we should note the audio recording has not been authenticated by nbc news, but this is what the white house is going to have to answer for at the top of the hour. [ crying ] >> so those are the sounds of the policy. we now have the pictures. we now have the sounds. no parent is going to be numb for long. >> i hope not. and i thought, you know, republicans were pro-life. and this is all about -- this whole situation is about these kids having a life and all the damage that is being done to them by being separated and pulled from their parents is

going to live with them for a long time. and so if you're a true conservative, you're a trump republican, this just can't stand. >> more than pro-life. it's -- >> let me get personal because somebody got real personal with you. matt shlab. you've heard the senior adviser in the white house commenting on visible forces, bringing the president around to all the important events for pro-life causes. i mention them because they're former colleagues. we used to fight inside the same trench. now we're on opposite sides of the trump question. they've been vitriolic. oi wo i wonder if you see hypocrisy in people who are so loud and force, in the hypocrisy. >> absolute hypocrisy. even beyond the question of the life issue is this is the party that was pro family. and we never said in our articulation of that pro-family

value that, well, we're only talking about american families or we're only talking about white families. we're only talking about trump families. we talked about families. that's why globally through the office of the presidency, the reach suz to look around the world and see where despots and bad actors were working against the interest of families, and we had a voice in that fight. we don't have that authority nor that voice any longer. >> and i guess the reason i'm naming names is because these were people who worked in other administrations. >> because they've been silenced. >> they've attacked people who thought trump hasn't come down on the right side of the despot question or the humanity question. secretary nielsen is going to take the podium in 2 1/2 minutes. she knows better. what are they doing? >> it's good to have the favor of the king. that's the most important value at this moment in time. it's not about principles,

ideals, or values. it's that when they go into that building, the president says i like what you said on tv today. that's the only thing that matters. >> thank you for that video. we tracked it down based on your tip. what do you think when you hear it? i guess we couldn't hear on the audio was a border patrol agent reportedly saying it's an orchestra we have in here. i don't know if he was making fun of it, but obviously aware of the crying and the wailing and children don't cry and wail unless there's something wrong. >> i just think this is the tip of the iceberg. if this policy continues. like i said before, dhs is estimating we could have up to 20,000 children in these facilities. at some point our persistence will pay off in the form of more access, and there will be more stories coming out. i don't know how this ends well because at the end of this is a calculation that this is actually going to work, nicole,

that this policy is actually going to deter these families from coming here. but jeh johnson was just out on the media, former dhs secretary the other day, saying here's the fundamental miscalculation that's being made is that these people, what they're fleeing is actually worse than this. it's worse than how we are treating them. and i think that's why we as the media, when we do get a hold of these people, we need to not only ask them their stories about how they've been treated by us but what it is they're fleeing because often they have horrific stories. their family members have been killed. there's a lot of women coming with babies and young children. their husbands may have been killed. they may have been raped. and these are the stories that are eventually going to come out. >> these are the new american stories. in the time of the trump presidency. my thanks to michael, eli, doug, barbara, and heidi. that does it for our our. i'm nicole wallace.

"mtp daily" starts right now with katy tur in for chuck. i've watched one hour. isle watch another. >> lucky you. secretary nielsen is coming up. mariana atencio has been doing an incredible job of talking to families and talking to mothers and children and translating in real time. >> amazing. >> their stories and what they're running from. i said this at 2:00. isle say it again to you right now. nobody puts their kid on a boat unless the water is safer than the land. >> gave me chills, my friend. >> nicole wallace, thanks so much. if it's monday, the trump administration is about to speak about their controversial immigration policy that's separating families at the border.