take the daca hostages you can jamb in a solution. if you take 2600 kids away from their parents that produces the solution. that has not worked. and i don't see it working this week. >> fair enough. and i'm not even sure how the two different chambers of congress get together at all on this. still unclear there's 218 votes in the house let alone any path forward in the senate. so, this is going to put this right back at the president's feet. but that bripgz this hour to a close for us. chris hayes, thank you so much for sticking around with me this hour. i really appreciate it. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. amid a full-scale public relations crisis over its policy of forcibly separating children from their parents, donald trump today reversed course, signing a new executive order ending that policy in just the last hour. >> we are signing an executive order. i consider to be a very important executive order. it's about keeping families

together while at the same time being sure that we have a very powerful, very strong border and border security will be equal if not greater than previously. so we're going to have strong, very strong borders, but we're going to keep the families together. i didn't like the sight or the feeling of families being separated. it's a problem that's gone on for many years as you know, through many administrations, and we're working very hard on immigration. it's been -- it's left out in the cold. ivanka feels very strongly, my wife feels very strongly about it. i feel very strongly about it. i think anybody with a heart would feel very strongly about it. we don't like to see families separated. at the same time, we don't want people coming into our country illegally. this takes care of the problem. >> trump halting a policy that he defended as recently as this morning. and that aides confirm he still believes in.

only after a congressional revolt on capitol hill that included dozens of republicans, threats of boycotts from companies that do business with the federal government, and withering criticism from trump voices in the media. the announcement came 14 1/2 hours after the associated press broke the news that the trump administration has set up at least three tender age shelters where it can lock up babies and other young children. doctors and lawyers who visited those shellsters said the children were hysterical crying and acting out. many of them are under the age of 5 and some are so young they have not yet learned to talk. locked up, sounds a lot like jail for babies. let that sink in. "the new york times" report being, kwoelt, while mr. trump's actions appear to stop short of calls for an end to the zero-tolerance policy, it would be a remarkable retreat for the president who has steadfastly refused to a poll on almost any other context and it would be a testament to the political power of the images of the immigrant

children to move public opinion. people close to the president said he remains convinced his immigration policies are appropriate and necessary, but mr. trump is said to be increasingly frustrated by the criticism he's getting and aware he is boxed in by the legal argument his administration has made. speaking of boxes, here's the one trump put himself in over the last couple of days. >> wait, wait, you can't do it to an executive order. >> we have to get the democrats to go ahead and work with us. i say it's very strongly the democrats' fault all we need is good legislation and we can have it taken care of. we can do this very quickly if the democrats come to the table. >> here to take us through the day's extraordinary developments, nbc's jacob soboroff is in mcallen texas. also msnbc news chief white house correspondent hallie jackson joins us. former u.s. attorney joyce vance is here. with us at the table john

heilman, and selena maximum well, director of programming for sirius xm. hallie jackson, i'm struck by some of the words the president used. he talked about not liking to see the images of the families. the striking of syria came after he saw the images of children gassed. multiple news organizations reported the pdb includes a lot of charts and graphs. we know this president processes information visually, but we also know he's incredibly focused on negative press. what was the tipping point for the president in this complete about face? >> and it is a reversal, na k nicolle, let's not call it anything else despite his insistence he will continue this zero-tolerance policy which triggered the high rate in the first place. we had an intersection here, visuals and negative coverage. this was the a pelicapex of bot those things. not negative because the media was trying to make it negative. the president's closest allies on capitol hill, people who have

stood up for him time and time and kitime again as i've watche this administration came out and said, this iwrong, the white house needs to change it. the president was hearing those voices. he was seeing those pictures, hearing that audio and he was hearing i think importantly, nicolle, from both ivaa trump and melania trump. you reference the situation in syria. remember who was also a voice then that the president talked about, his daughter, his seenni advisor, ivanka trump at the time the kids being gassed talked about how disturbing she found the images. ivanka trump didn't actually say that publicly. she did not come out and take a stand publicly in opposition to this policy until after the president signed that executive order. unlike melania trump the first lady who did. here's the bottom line. the political pressure built so much, it became so intense along with the pressure of the president's family he signed this. don't forget what happens three hours from now. the president goes to minnesotas, he's going to be standing in front of a crowd cheering him on every step of

the way. i imagine the this during the campaign is going to talk at length about the executive order he signed. he will cast it as he was being as he did today, being compassionate and helping these families because he didn't like the sights and feelings to use his words of this, and he's going to say he didn't back down. as he said today, is the prediction based on our reporting. again, this is a policy the president himself put in place. five days ago you played that clip very quickly, but it's worth highlighting, he said an executive action could not fix this. i was just up inside the west wing and i asked one official, what changed? did you get new legal advice? did you get new legal guidance? what happened? there was no solid answer on that. we're going to report out, but it is worth noting how quickly this happened. >> jacob soboroff, you've been doing some of the most extraordinary reporting anywhere and asking the questions we finally got one of the answers to last night, where are the girls, where are the babies. last night just before 10:00 p.m., just before rachel

maddow's hour ended we got our answer. the babies are in three tender age shelters for babies. can you talk about the ground truth where you are? >> well, here's the thing, nicolle. we know where some of the babies are. they're -- the only three tender age, which is a strange term but it's the only -- those are the only three shelters of tender age babies, infants, toddlers that we know about. they certainly aren't the only ones and we know there are a hundred shelters run by h.h.s. across the entire country across 17 states. we've been hearing reports today as chris hayes was just mentioning in the previous hour, all the way up to new york state where young children might be located. so, there are 2,500 kids dispersed throughout the united states of america not just here in south texas, including the same kind of toddlers that i saw in that detention facility here in mcallen. we don't know where they are. not only do we not know where they are. we don't know if they will ever be reunited with their parents

again because according to a former i.c.e. official who talked to julia ainsley, they could become essentially immigrant orphans. those parents could be deported and not have the resources to come back and find those children. so, the sickening images and feelings that many of us felt over the course of the last week or so haven't gone away. we should remember that when we watch the signing ceremony today. >> jacob, let me put up the video. we have some of that video that you're referencing. this is from new york one, video of children being brought to new york. this is after midnight last night. here are some of the girls and some of the children. >> there you go, exactly. >> let me ask you about this sort of sense from the president that he "fixed" this. there are still thousands of children as you just said who may never be reunited with their parents. what is the process now, even if the practice stops, there are still thousands of children separated from their parents who are on their way to deportation. what is the process? what are people supposed to do?

i was thinking -- we can't always keep track of people we release from gitmo and they're terrorists. >> there is no process. this has never been done before. there wasn't an official process when this zero tolerance policy was even in place. all there was was a piece of paper call the 1-800 number press 1 for english, 2 for spanish. whatever the case may be. there is certainly no process for going back in time and finding those kids that are inside those shelters. i was just thinking about what happens to the kids today that have been separated from their parents already and they're sitting in the dee tngs center here in mcallen or one of the detention centers across the country and they're caught in this limbo between when the executive order was signed and the policy stops and they're still in detention. how do you reunite with those children, where do they go? >> cal perry, let me bring you up on that question and pickup the thread and answer this. these are people in the case of

the asylum seekers committed no crime at all. they came to a country that used to be a beacon for freedom, they used to accept people coming to this country seeking asylum. the fact that they're being treated in this manner, their children were ripped from their arms and now they stand a pretty serious risk of never being reunited with their very young children in some instances, where do we go from here? >> and the kids are alone. we've seen two buses that have come in just in the past hour packed with kids. and here's the other thing. the other thing i just can't shake is that everyone is lying. i mean, the president is lying. the heads of the agencies are lying. i've been lied to by the border officers here. we've been pushed around all day. we were told, our crew was told saturday night, there's nothing happening here. there's no tents here. there's at least 18 tents. there's at least 400 kids in this wired compound behind me. there is not a plan really on how to feed them, how to get them water, how to give them ice. i saw a party ice truck arrive

last night. so, the process is not in place as jacob was saying. the process is just not there to handle the influx of what we've seen because of the policy that's been put in place. this tent city would not exist if the policy hadn't changed on behalf of the president. what happens now, we talked about this a little bit earlier in the day. it's quite possible that some of these kids, whether or not they're reunited with their parents, are going to end up on air force bases across the south of this country. those are incredibly inhospitable places. those are the last places we want to take someone who has just come to this country and say welcome to america, welcome to fort bliss. >> cal, you mentioned people that have lied. let me show you some of those people. let's talk about that on the other side. >> i would cite you to the apostle paul and his clear and wise command in romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because god has ordained the government for his purposes. >> i can say that it is very biblical to enforce the law.

that is actually repeated a number of times throughout the bible. but the separation of illegal alien families is the product of the same legal loopholes that democrats refuse to close and these laws are the same that have been on the books for over a decade. and the president is simply enforcing them. >> congress and the courts created this problem and congress alone can fix it. this administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border. >> so, cal, let's fact check that together. the separation of illegal alien families is a loop hole democrats refuse to close. not true from sarah sanders. secretary nielsen, congress and the courts created this system, congress alone can fix it. not true. secretary nielsen, this administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border. yes, it did. so, can you talk about how all these individuals were thrown under the bus in some ways by the president going out and

doing exactly what they have insisted for days they couldn't do? >> and many, many more, right? a minimum age of 4 years old to be separated from your family and then we see pictures of toddlers. it's theater and the concern is really, i think for many people -- i'm sure for yourself included -- it seems to me the president just wants to move past the theater. take syria, for example. those airstrikes really did prop up bashar al-assad. they really did make him the most powerful force in syria. and they proved that as long as the russians are there, the americans can only do so much. it feels like this executive order -- and again, i will wait to see what it really is -- feels like the president is trying to push past the drama that is us on television saying that this is unacceptable. i said this to you in an e-mail. you know, i come from covering these things overseas where governments lie to me all the time. and i just have to say, you know, being here and being an assistant to jacob, it's crazy. it's crazy, nicolle. >> joyce, you've been making

calls all day about the process families might go through to be reunited. what have you learned and do you have any information to pass along for our viewers? >> so, i think it will be a difficult process. i.c.e. will have to come up with some mechanism for reuniting families, for bringing children who have now been put throughout the united states, finding their parents, many of them now in foreign countries with language difficulties together. and to put it kindly, i.c.e. is going to have to build that airplane while they're flying it. these will be difficult pictures to put back together much like what happened in europe at the end of world war ii where displaced people were all over with no clear plan in place to put them together again. i don't think we're much better off than that. and the problem is attorney general sessions wandered into this policy without thinking in advance and without preparing i.c.e. and d.o.j. agencies for how they would reunify the children with their families. it's almost as though no thought was given to that in advance.

>> joyce, i'm just gob smacked to hear you talk about post-world war ii. you had laura bush talking about the japanese internment camps former cia director mike hayden talking about concentration camps. i'm going ask you something i've asked guests all week. are we still the same country that we were before this crisis? >> you know, i think we all have to believe that in our hearts, our people are good and we will reclaim the sort of vision that we've always had in this country. but we are flirting perilously with authoritarianism and anti-immigration policies. we saw this during world war ii, or at least those of us who are old enough to remember would remember in world war ii when there was japanese internment across this country. that's not something that we're proud of and that we want to see again. and so we'll have to, i think, reforge those beliefs and those values and reaffirm our commitment to them because we have wandered into dangerous territory here.

>> heilman? >> i have found the last week or so and particularly the last 48 hours or so, some of the most disheartening and appalling period of my entire adult life covering politics and watching what's been happening in this country. what happened today is really an easy story. the president bowed to political pressure. we have not seen him do that often. we have seen many politicians do it. the president usually tries to push his way through. it was undeniably intense and he folded. it's great. it should be heartening to some people that it is possible for this president to be pressured to stop from doing vile things. at the same time, he is going to and is already trying to have it both ways. we have seen him for days say, you can't solve this with an executive order, and then sit there today on television and say, hey, i have an executive order. he has pitched him self as the villain in a way that he likes

for days. yesterday when he used the phrase infestation, it called to mind -- it was basically saying immigrants, people who come to this country are vermin. that's what he's saying. it's the language of white nationalist, splinter hard right crazy town parties. and we have haven't heard it in our politics in a long time. we've heard it in our politics in history, but not in a while. he's going to go -- he's going to use that language between now and november because he thinks it works with the part of his group, of his base. he's also going to try to be a hero and say what he said today. oh, compassion, the word compassion. i like how he talked about the word compression. can't actually express compassion. it has something to do with the word compassion. it is our job in the press and also the job of democrats to not let the president have it both ways on this issue and to make sure that he can't be both. you can't just do this thing and then stand up and say, oh, hey, i'm now the hero, i have compassion. huh-uh, you can't go around talking about people like

they're vermin, you can't inflict this kind of pofl si on americans and not pay a political price. we have a great chance to inflict one on him and his party in november. meaning the democrat party. i'm not part of the democratic party, but people who object to this policy, which i think is a lot of people beyond the democratic party have a chance to make the president and his party pay a price and they should. the press needs to hold him accountable and not let him slide away from this the next course of days and let this happen. >> i've never seen you like this before. you give me a lump in my throat a little bit. i want to ask you a serious question. do you think the president actually felt something when he saw those pictures? do you think he just got caught being horrific? >> i don't know. i can't be inside the man's head. on the basis of the way he's been talking about this issue with such zeal and such pride up until a few hours ago, it does not strike me that -- nothing in the way he talked about it -- again, he talked about compassion. not expressing it, not showing it, not demonstrating it, but just kind of using the word.

and even objectifying in some sense the word. compassion, that's what he said. it did not feel super heart felt to me and i'll say one other thing which i think is important. you know, we in the press tend to be like little kids on the socc soccer field. we chase the ball whichever way it's running. we have a country that is that has amnesia about these things. people say we678 to stay foc ha focused on the reunification on these families. there are people kids have been drugged, people alleging sexual abuse in these centers. we have to stay on those stories, and not just let him get away with it and act like it didn't happen, but to stay on this story because the consequence of this story going forward for sthoothese children whether these allegations are true or not are significant. we cannot lapse into our normal patterns of amnesia and soccer ballism that we often do. >> so, john makes a good point, but i want your thoughts on the same question.

i just don't accept that he saw the images and didn't like them because the images were available yesterday. jacob soboroff has been at the border for days. the images have been everywhere for a long time. i think he didn't like the bad press as hallie jackson reported out for nbc news. i don't accept on any level he was bothered by any of this. i think it was a policy he ran on. that steve bannon was speaking for him on sunday on the sunday shows with jonathan carl where he said this is the law. i don't buy for a second that he changed his mind, that he was moved by anything he saw. i think he knew he was screwed politically and that for once, even some of his safe spaces on fox news and other places, were not going to be there for him. he got caught being horrific. >> he made a political calculation, not a moral one. and i think that, you know, this is the culmination of my greatest fears. we had so many brain storms during the campaign where we would, you know, posit out what the worst case scenarios could be. certainly internment camps of

undocumented people were among the brain stormed ideas. i never in a million years would imagine we would have babies in cages. that is beyond the pale. he made a political calculation because there are republicans in swing districts, how are they going to go out and campaign and defend babies incarcerated? that's the reality we're living in. it's the combination of both white nationalist racism making the policy and complete and total incompetence to be able to at least try to track family members because how is a six-month old baby going to tell a border official that this is my mother when they can't speak? it's completely ridiculous. >> all right. jacob soboroff, kyle perry and halle berry. on "dateline" sunday, dividing line all about the crisis on the border. i will be watching. when we come back, filling the leadership vacuum, some not has to do t. the swift est protest to the hard line immigration policies coming from american businesses. also ahead, the president's

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some of the loudest and perhaps some of the most effective protests against the president's child separation policy came from the business community. american airlines is one of four carriers announcing today that they are asking the federal government not to use its flights to transport migrant children separated from their families. just in last few minutes, delta adding its name to the list you're looking at. in a statement, american airlines saying, quote, we have no desire to be associated with

separating families or worse to profit from it. we have every expectation the government will comply with our request and we thank them for doing so. "the new york times" reports today on an open letter posted to microsoft's internal message board tuesday with more than 100 employees protesting the company's work with immigration and customs enforcement or i.c.e.. the letter reads in part, quote, we believe that microsoft must take an ethical stand and put children and families above profits. the letter pointed to a $19.4 million contract that microsoft has with ice. and some of the biggest names in hollywood are lashing out at fox over its association with fox news and that channel's defense of the president's policies. the co-creator of modern family which is produced by 20th century fox saying he's disgusted to work at a company that has anything whatsoever to do with fox news. joining us at the table jeremy peters "the new york times" political reporter and sam stein, politics editor for the daily beast. the base doesn't care, the base doesn't care, but donald trump

cares a whole lot about what he views as sort of his former circle, business leaders in this country think. and i remember distinctly after charlottesville, it was the parting ways of business leaders that offended him more than any of the rebukes from civil rights leaders or anyone in the press or anyone in congress. >> there were resignations from -- >> all his forums and committees. >> i think he does respond to that. i think just more cosmically, he doesn't like bad stories. and this was about as bad a story as we could get, as bad a story that has accompanied his presidency really. so, it was just the deluge of media attention. i think the only thing that probably prevented it from happening sooner, the president changing his mind, i mean, is that we didn't have images. we had some images. we had government sanctioned-approved images but we didn't have the same types -- the unfiltered independent film and video of what was really going on in these centers.

i can't help but wonder if that was intentional on the part of the government agencies that wanted to keep this in place because this president is highly image responsive. and seeing that probably would have accelerated this process. >> are you really wondering? really wondering? >> just pick up on the conversation we had, i think he just got caught doing exactly what he wanted to do. i think your theory is exactly the point. if we hadn't seen those images, if we hadn't heard the audio of childr children wailing, if the a.p. hadn't reported there were three basically prisons for locking up infants and toddlers, i don't think he would have changed -- he didn't blink because he had some sort of wave of morality. he blinked for the reasons you just said. he didn't like losing control of the narrative. >> it's a bad story, bad publicity. he doesn't like bad publicity. at his core, he's a guy who is image conscious, right? and he knows when he's getting hammered. this is about as bad as we've ever seen him get hammered.

>> to be clear, we still have not seen anything like the real images of what is going on in these facilities because in most cases cameras have -- independent cameras have not beenllowed in. when you hear as jacob soboroff heard yesterday, we'll show you a picture from 2016 and we might get you pictures from a current date, like 48 hourtz, you have to be an idiot to not think there is a cover up of -- the press should be allowed into those facilities. senators are being barred from going into these facilities. it happened to merkley earlier. this is a group of people who realize that if the truth were shown, the palomino i can tours were shown of what's really going on in these centers, we would be -- the country in a widespread way would be horrified and there is no other explanation for it. why would you not let a camera in if it was all going to be fine? why would you offer a picture from 2016 if the pictures of the current day are not mortifying? there is no other explanation. >> why isn't there a call on

capitol hill to investigate the humanitarian crisis at the border? >> this gets to your lead-in, which is why are corporate boycotts so significant. they reflect the inability of politicians to actually do anything to counteract what's happening. the ineffectual neness of congr is on full display. what they're decide sergio garcia should we tuck this into a larger immigration bill that certainly won't pass or should we do one thing we know the president can do on his own administratively and that just underscores how little is being done on the hill. so, to answer the question, why are we not hearing calls for an investigation? because congress is paralyzed by all this. >> are they paralyzed or are they -- i mean, paralysis suggests they're frozen in place and can't move. is it they can't or that they won't? >> i don't know. that's a really good question. i think part of it is they won't. there is an immense amount of fear -- >> why not? hasn't he revealed himself enough now? >> we've seen smatterring of

these polls. there is one group that appreciates the policy of separation and it's republicans. it's not minor appreciation. it's a modest appreciation -- >> people who voted for trump in the primary, two-thirds support the policy. >> if you're a sitting republican and you're staring at this issue in the face and you are cowardly, and you don't want to risk your political hyde, you don't put your neck out there and say we should cross the president. what you're seeing is -- >> you should hold a baby -- that's cool, i'm hearing you both. but if you're going to do that, if you're going to leave your soul back at the soul center where they handed them out years ago when the republicans still had them, you should go to a center and hold a baby. >> yeah. ahold a crying baby. that should be the price you pay for your silence. >> a last, no one is forcing them to make that -- we don't see any of the cabinet secretaries, secretary nielsen among them going down to these detention facilities. we see trump going somewhere today, but it's to a political fund-raiser in minnesota, not near the border as he's dealing

with this crisis. they don't want to be associated physically with this crisis. they want to deal with it at an arms length and they don't want to deal with it effectively at all. >> let us speak briefly about secretary nielsen who has in her white house appearance a couple days ago who said she had no idea where the babies were. >> the girls and the babies >> she had no idea. now we know they're at these three centers. is it really possible the secretary of d.h.s. did not know about those three facilities when she spoke to the press 48 hours ago? is that possible? doesn't seem that possible to me. again, another thing -- another thing that we need to not forget and another person in public life who needs to be held to account because i'm certain she was lying to the press when she said she had no idea. >> yeah. >> we now know these facilities exist and what they're filled with which is the babies. >> babies that are locked up according to the a.p. joyce i hear you trying to jump in. >> well, i think it's important to remember how we got here, nicolle. we didn't get here as the president said earlier today, because of the 60-year-long crisis. we got here because the attorney

general changed the policy direction to prosecutors, removing discretion and ordering them to charge every single misdemeanor case of unlawful entry into the united states. and it was the arrest of those parents who unlawfully entered for the first time, many of them in an effort to seek asylum, that led the criminal justice system to put their parents into custody, leaving the children to then fall into what i think you're appropriately characterizing as baby prisons. so, for the white house to so distance itself and try to claim that this is a long-term problem is wrong. everything that they've told us about this has been a staged series of lies. and i think that we are rightfully entitled now to question whether they can be trusted to end this process and reunify these children with their families, or whether we need a bipartisan process of the hill with outside independent people who will over see this process, ensure it is appropriately resourced and concluded. >> all right.

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mounbatt this is cruelty as policy. this is an obscenity. the government and the president of the united states that we both love advocating a system by which young children are torn from their mothers. you have agreed with me, history will judge us, sean. history will judge us. we make take a stand on something. >> geraldo, we cannot condone this. >> when did we become the party of child abuse? he fau >> fault line of the bromance. not a safe haven for trump's immigration policy. steve schmidt taking to twitter this morning to announce he's

leaving the republican party writing, 29 years and nine months ago i registered to vote and became a member of the republican party which was founded in 1854 to oppose slavery and stand for the dignity of human life. today i renounce my membership in the republican party. it is fully the party of trump. >> right. >> like ronald reagan said, the democratic party left me a long time ago. i think the republican party left people like steve schmidt and nicolle wallace a long time ago. it almost raises the question -- a great question, good thing i'm writing a book about this -- what is the republican party right now? it is the trump party. it is nothing but fealty -- >> going to be a short book. >> it is about fealty to the individual, not the policy. i went through and looked the other day at instances in which the republican electorate has reversed itself, and these are things like basic questions, like what is your opinion of vladimir putin, positive or

negative? number of republicans whose positive opinion of vladimir putin has tripled since donald trump became president. on questions like whether or not morality and public life is important. overwhelming number of republicans no longer say that's the case. >> selena? >> i want to say there is a connection between the rhetoric of the past and what's happening right now. it's just more explicit. donald trump normalized racism during the campaign and so he said openly racist things without using dog whistles. when we talked about border security that was i dog whistle to certain constituents in the republican base that did not want brown people crossing the border, did not want the browning of the united states and of the american population. and so i think it's important that we make that connection because it's not that this republican party is overall different than what we saw in the past. it is more racist and explicit. >> let me push back gently. i take your point and i don't disagree with it. i think one distinction is one

of the people pushing back used to be republican presidents. i mean you had bush 41. you had george w. bush. i went to the border with george w. bush multiple times. he pushed back against his own party. >> right. >> then press secretary tony snow who had come from fox news, the late great tony snow would go on fox and defend george w. bush's belief in comprehensive immigration reform. so, the difference is those elements, i agree with you, we're always in the republican party a hsien loong tilong, lon democratic party, too. you saw the people at the top pushing back -- >> reagan signed the greatest immigration amnesty in history, your boss, the first time ever i met him in texas at a governor's race going to a hispanic soccer game in a district -- he wasn't getting any votes. speaking spanish to 9-year-old hispanic kids playing soccer. >> right. >> there were a lot of problems with your boss, with your former boss. >> of course.

>> on this issue he was governor of texas. his attitude was i'm going to lose all these votes for dan richards. i'm going to campaign for him. when i win i want to be governor of the hispanic part of the state, too. it was a different party in that respect. >> part of what is contributing to this, the reason we played the geraldo clip, the echo chambers allow donald trump to go out and create an entire eco system which creates a positive feedback loop. he doesn't have to venture outside his comfort zone. when he does he reverses course. i remember during the bush years your boss got pilloried by fox. i remember marco rubio went on talk radio and got hammered for this stuff but he did it anyway. trump doesn't venture outside his echo chamber. he doesn't talk to people outside the fox news conservative online bubble. that is what's sort of enforcing some of these tendencies. >> he does. but he disregards what they say. >> he does not.

he does only friendly interviews. the last time he did an adversarial tv interview, adversarial -- >> he did the singapore thing with news outlets. he talks to a wider range of people than we know. the people reporters he talks to off the record, it's not like he's only calling up fox news. it's more he doesn't care -- >> to sam's point no one in the public sees him anywhere other than in a friendly media setting. >> look, the reality is that stephen miller who was the architect of this policy as much as anyone who donald trump listens to more than anyone on this topic goes to "the new york times" and says, on this issue he thinks it's a 90/10 issue for republicans. he defines it are you open for borders or border security. he's in "the new york times" two days ago saying this is a 90/10 issue for republicans. that speaks to the bubble. the political peril for the president going down this path which he learned a little today there is political peril here. because stephen miller is out of

his mind if he thinks this policy is a policy that 90% of americans -- i would say it's not a policy 90% of republicans support. we saw last week. >> it is not only a question of outputs, but a question of input. do we know any immigration advocate that sat down with this team -- >> stephen miller >> look at the cabinet meeting he had today. it was almost zlexclusively whi men. >> and restrictionist white men john kelly and stephen mi. >> if you have that as the only people as a sounding board, you'll produce policies that end up just like this. i don't think president bush was like that. president obama prided himself on not being like that. i think we've gotten to a place where it's not just tribalism. we've created these eco systems we refuse to branch out of. >> joyce, let me bring you in on this. usually this conversation is around the frame for the disregard of the rule of law. we'll get to that later in the show. let me ask you to speak to the per ills of living inside your bubble. just in the frame of civility,

frame of humanity. those are the two things we as a country lost over the last ten days. >> you know, yesterday i joined more than 80 of my former u.s. attorney colleagues, a bipartisan group, in signing a letter asking the attorney general to rescind this policy. and something that was interesting that i felt like we regained in that process was the humanity that has always brought us together in past administrations where policy could be different and we could have arguments about that policy. but the respect for the rule of law in these fundamental beliefs that there were people who were entitled to their rights as human beings and the actions of your boss obviously whose policies i didn't always agree with, but who on border issues respected the fundamental integrity of human beings, their rights as individuals, we've lost that in many ways. processes like the one i was involved in over the weekend with my bipartisan colleagues remind us how important it is to

understand the american principles that we're giving up on when we have these kind of haphazard border policies. >> after the break, it turns out donald trump can multi task. while many were focused on the tragedy at the border, the president managed to keep up his smear campaign against the d.o.j. and the fbi. we'll bring you the latest. hey blue. you don't really believe it. and then you see one for the first time. it's a miracle. [ roar ] you see that? holy! rated pg-13. do not mistake serenity for weakness. do not misjudge quiet tranquility for the power of 335 turbo-charged horses.

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news for bob mueller's probe, kangaroo court. >> do you foresee any circumstances under which you would allow thesident to talk to mueller and his team? i have to ask the question. this is my job. >> so far, you know, i still have all my senses and i'm a heck of a lawyer. and i get drummed out of the profession if i did. you don't put your client in a kangaroo court. i certainly won't sit down with him with these questions still lingering about whether these people are a kangaroo court and a firing squad. who in his right mind would put his client in front of people like that? >> people like that, joyce vance, bob mueller served as fbi director under democratic and republican president. firing squad and a kangaroo court? this feels new and this feels like a moment that should not go noted as anything less than a disgrace. >> i think that's absolutely right. the american people have come to know bob mueller over the last months. this is a career public servant.

he served in the military. he served in the justice department. always somebody willing to sacrifice fame and fortunate in order to go back and serve justice. i can't really imagine anyone from really imagine from my 25-plus years in the justice department who had a more sterling reputation for integrity. and rudy giuliani of all people who served in certain administrations a long time mueller he knows this. it is another lie coming were the administration. the goal is to run a pr campaign so that the american people will not believe mueller's report or criminal convictions he obtains in prison. and it's shameful. >> and i guess my point is, the trump era will end. i guess rudy giuliani has enough money that -- >> what makes you say that? >> well at most he will be president for seven more years. and the trump era will end and rudy giuliani will have called bob mueller someone who ran a kangaroo court.

>> history probablient won't be very kind to this moment in rudy giuliani's career. to be honest and not to be too cynical about it what he is doing has proven effective. >> effective of what, though? no one knows what bob mueller has got. >> if the goal is a pr campaign, if you look at any public data -- >> back up. why do we all accept the premise that a pr campaign is sufficient? >> it could all be undone by the actual findings which are trump everything. >> no pun intended. >> yeah. if the goal is to tarnish mueller he is doing an effective job. one thing we found in a survey we did was the opinion of mueller is low, and in particular with fox news audiences. part of it is because rudy giuliani goes on there and trashes it. >> the president does, too.

calls them corrupt and liars and fakers. here's the thing. it doesn't mart what the results of the investigation are -- >> how do you know that? what you don't know what they are? >> because it doesn't matter. >> dead hookers in the hudson? i don't accept that. i'm sorry, i don't accept that at this table. we do not know. the mueller probe is voiceless. they can't defend the rule of law, can't defend the investigation. but the fact is bob mueller fired the client who tweeted about making sure donald trump couldn't win. >> they are using incidents that predate the mueller probe. to voice -- i think it's wrong to make assumptions that -- who is to say that a pr campaign is going to get him out of whatever mueller comes up with. >> the audience that rudy giuliani is speaking to. >> 2 million people? >> i would be surprised -- i'm saying it is a subset of people for whom the facts just do not

matter. >> the ultimate report might trump all. but think about this, there was a meeting at trump tower with top trump campaign officials and russian agents where they were promising dirt on hillary clinton. that is my many standards an act of collusion. >> right. >> and yet a huge -- a huge subset of the population believes there has been no collusion. >> right. >> listen, i don't think -- ultimately, that is superficial but i think to a agree it is notable. because if the country can't wrap its head around the fact that an act of collusion did happen i am worried they might not accept anything that the mueller investigation produces. >> i want to also take some time to answer this question for me. i think they know that the president is in a lot of trouble and i think this is a prebuttle. i think the known unknown is what mueller has them on. >> i agree. i hate trying to be the person in the middle of trying to figure out what the synthetic point of view is.

with you i think the follow is true. we didn't know what mueller is going to come up. mueller knows thing none of us know. we don't n.o.w. know how devastating the report is going to be. they know what the president has done. they are in for a fight. has a judicial component and a political component. the part that's political they are playing like a political campaign. >> right. >> there is a set of findings that will en -- >> that's -- >> there is a set of findings that could be so irrefutable it will end the presidency no what the campaign is. it's more on the line, up for public dispute. -- if there is a fight let's be out there in a place where mueller's conclusions are bad but not devastating, negative but not conclusive how do we win

that fight in the court of public opinion and can we get 47, even 38, 39, if we can come in with a hard core 40 behind us and then try to fight for enough just to hold on to power, that might be a winning strategy. but i agree with you, we shouldn't assume that mueller's not going to come in with a slam dunk case where everyone is going to go okay, sorry, all of this has mott meant anything. >> let me give joyce the last word here. i have been talking with former justice department officials who say don't confuse vicelessness with powerlessness that bob mueller holdsall all of the cards and the fact that's running a leak-free, a silent investigation that's investigating potential crimes committed during the 2016 election and during the trump presidency means that the silence is what is triggering this lunacy. not any leak that they have anything on the president and not that a pr campaign is sufficient defense from whatever is coming. >> i think you are exactly

right. this is a lot like watching a trial in show motion where all of the evidence comes out to the jury without any effort to argue it. they just hear the facts. so we are not hearing all of the facts. but we do see the tip of the iceberg. and we've started to here what i'll call the defendant's closing argument. this is giuliani and trump going out and saying we have no conclusion. what we haven't heard yet is the prosecution's closing at of the you saw this so many times in a trial. the jury heard the evidence and the defendant's version but when the prosecution tied it all together. mueller's report to congress will be that closing at and i think the american people will sit up and take notice. >> i'm with you, joyce. always. we have to sneak in our very last break. we'll be right back. i was just excited for it to be over.

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tell televise holliman during the break sometime soon that does it for our hour. i'll nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now. >> thank you nicole. am i supposed to keep track of how many days in a row you are wearing black. >> this is my baby jail dress. >> okay. don't know where to go with that. >> good luck. >> okay. if it's wednesday, under pressure. president trump actually reverses course. tonight an executive order to end family separation at the border. why this still won't zero out the president's zero tolerance policy. >> we are keeping a very