poopity scoop. >> poopity scoop is how we end all of our interviews. >> there's a lot more poopity in that interview because in our "beat" podcast, we have an extra, the entire interview with dave chappelle. go to the purple podcast icon on your cell phone, go to the search bar and type in melber and you'll have the entire podcast of the rate us if you like the podcast. "hardball" starts now. trump to republicans, don't even bother. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews here in new york. the white house today struggled to get its message straight on immigration both at the border and on capitol hill. the president, of course, reversed course earlier in the

week signing that executive order ending his administration's policy on separating migrant children from their parents. but it's still unclear how those children will be handled going forward. meanwhile, in washington, the president back pedaled on a commitment to house republicans that he would support their immigration legislation. this morning trump tweeting out republicans should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators and congressmen and women in november. dems are just playing games, have no intention of doing anything to solve this decades-old problem. we can pass great legislation after the red wave. just two days ago the president promised house republicans he would support them 100% and vowed he would not leave them in the wilderness, but the president's tweet risked stalling what little momentum that republican legislation had. it is also a dramatic reversal for an administration that spent days demanding action from congress. >> congress and the courts created this problem and

congress alone can fix it. >> the president isn't trying to kick the can down the road, he's actually trying to work with congress. >> we're going to be signing an executive order. we are also going to counting on congress. >> we look forward to, you know, congress playing a big role in this. a lot of things need to be done can only be done by congress. >> we're also wanting to go through congress. we will be going through congress. >> and amid the political back and forth, the fate of roughly 2,300 children lost in a confusing labyrinth of bureaucracy remains unknown. on thursday the pentagon announced military bases were being prepared to shelter as many as 20,000 migrant children. "time" magazine reported the navy is preparing plans to construct, quote, temporary and austere detention camps. politically this is adding up to be one of the toughest weeks of trump's presidency. today he tried to reclaim the narrative, sharing the stage with families who lost loved

ones to crimes committed by people in the country illegally. >> you hear this side. these are the families the media ignores. they don't talk about them. very unfair. >> for more i'm joined by i yamiche alcindor, bret stephens, raul reyes. yamiche, let me start with you. the politics of immigration and the messages the president is sending. he had two bills in the house republicans were working on. one a hard-line bill, one that's designed to get a little more moderate support. the president was supposed to go there and rally support for the moderate bill. instead he ends up putting out that message that says just don't do anything, we need more votes. then supposedly after that he called and tried to backtrack a little bit. at the end of the week, is there any push from the white house for any specific legislation on immigration? >> well, i talked to a white

house source only a few minutes ago and that person told me that the president still supports either one of the bills that the house is considering. that person said if they pass the hard-line bill or compromise bill, the president will sign it. the problem is that the president doesn't believe that the bill can pass the senate. they are complaining that republicans have such a slim majority in the senate, they don't feel like they can get that bill through, which means it can't get to the president's desk. the president then because he's so frustrated, he's now tweeting out this is a waste of time. he's trying to make it a midterm issue. i'm told that the president, if the president wants these bills next week fail, that he wants a bill specifically on the flores settlement which is the court case that strictly limits how immigrant families and children in particular are housed. >> yeah, so brett, one of the issues here is the republican party itself, the republicans in the house, cannot seem to get on the same page on this. you've got this hard-line measure and this compromise measure. from what i can tell the difference between them, in the

compromise measure they have the wall, family detention and they have the path to citizenship for the dreamerers. the hard-line measure doesn't have citizenship for the dreamers and does have reductions in legal immigration numbers. can you see a way -- >> the compromise measure is terrible because it takes the caus the wrong direction. we need more immigration if we're going to fund entitlements and continue to have a vibrant, diverse effective workforce, if we're not going to have japanese-style stagnation. >> what's the market for that message in the republican party? >> you know, as a matter of fact, i think at least until a few years ago back when i actually affiliated with republicans, there were a lot of republicans who understood the basic free market case, leaving aside the case for decency, the case for american values, the free market case for having a strong pro-immigration policy. you'll still find there are many republicans in states that

depend on immigration and do not want these kind of -- this kind of hard-line position that has overtaken fox news and the other organs of conservative nativism and extremism. so what you now have is a republican party sort of riven on its own ideology and own incompetence unable to arrive at what ought to be the proper conservative free market position. >> did it feel to you like the base of the republican party, the voters, who folks who picked trump in these primaries, is it even plausible they're going to land where you're talking about on this? >> look, i think there is -- i don't want to say silent majority, but there is perhaps a great many middle of the road conservatives who understand even if they want a more sort of legalized system, a more regular system, that immigration is fundamentally good for this country. my mother was a displaced person, a refugee to this country. my father came from mexico. that represents millions of people who understand -- who

understand that. but they don't really have a voice in today's republican or conservative establishment because the moment you try to make the case for immigration, you've got some jerk yelling amnesty and open borders and globalist. >> the president's tweet by the way also exacerbated challenges faced by republicans on the hill. let's take a look at the dramatically different reactions to what he had to say. >> the president is saying let's have a red wave, get more people elected to congress who want to vote yes on a solution. >> the longer this issue festers, i think it will have the reverse effect. rather than creating a red wave, it may be part of what creates a blue wave. >> meanwhile on the house floor democrat ted lieu played an audio recording of crying migrant children to bring attention to the children still separated from their parents. let's watch. >> the gentleman will suspend. >> for what reason, madam speaker? >> the gentleman is in breach of quorum.

>> cite the rule, madam speaker. >> rule 17 of the house. >> there's no rule says that i can't play sounds. >> the gentleman will suspend. >> why are you trying to prevent the american people from listening to what it sounds like in a detention facility. >> it prohibits the use of that device >> why do you not let the american people hear what they are saying? >> raul, looking at the politics of this on capitol hill right now, what you see ted lieu talking about right there, the politics of family separation, every poll i've seen are toxic for republicans. you can't -- you find a split in the republican party and go outside the republican party and find everybody else is looking at this largely and saying we want no part of this. >> right. >> so on that front, it seems clear where the politics fall. i'm wondering when you get beyond that question and say, okay, what do you now do with migrant families caught going across the border without

documentation, the republican compromise approach would call for -- what they're trying to put in this law -- >> whatever calling their compromise. >> we'll put it that way. do you see grounds for compromise when they say, okay, keep families together in detention while the adults wait processing and while the adults await trial. keep the family together, but they're in detention. is that something -- is there going to be any buy-in on that from democrats? >> i do not think so because democrats and many independents would regard that kind of approach as giving into a hostage situation where the president is using these young people in the migrant camps, these families, as bargaining chips to achieve what he wants. one thing that's very problematic talking about this situation is we have a certain segment of the electorate, majority of republicans, who have bought into the completely false notion that we have a so-called illegal immigration crisis, which we do not. the president himself mentioned it, something like a 17-year low. illegal apprehensions and

entries have been at a steady decline since the years of 2008, 2009. all of the metrics show this is actually the best time for immigration reform but the president has pushed this false narrative and now we are at a place -- this week is so unusual because the president for once on illegal immigration is very much on the defensive. and when you want to talk about policy and solutions, it's very hard to compete against pictures, audio tapes and these very disturbing images that are out there and we'll only see more now that more media is down at the border. >> i agree with what your reaction is. but this struck me this week, some of the polling. the question here, as we said, when you poll the family separation, extremely unpopular. but when you poll the underlying policy, the trump administration has forced this zero tolerance policy, when you ask this in the poll the idea arresting and

jailing and holding them, you get support for that. then the second question here in this same poll, you've got the families crossing illegally. what do you do? and that idea of family detention, you hold -- this is true among democrats and republicans. that has plurality support. i imagine as this gets litigated in politics, these numbers will change and maybe the democratic position changes. when i looked at that, it surprised me and made me wonder maybe the politics of this, i think they're very clear on family separation. i'm not sure they're as clear when you move away from that. >> because there's been a poverty of alternatives. there is an issue of families coming over, sometimes at great risk to children, and people think, well, there is a law and they're breaking it and you have to do something about it. but where is the politician out there, first of all, saying why don't we just open the doors much wider instead of building walls? why are these people coming here just trying to build better lives for themselves and contribute to their communities

here in the united states as well as back home? how are they in any sense a threat to us? and why aren't we working cooperatively with mexico and our partners in south america. george w. bush was doing that 10, 12 years ago to come up with solutions because we are not going to solve this problem longer term unless we are helping to turn latin america into an area of prosperity, not defendant contusi destitution. so given the poverty of choices, they're choosing what they're choosing. >> i think just in the last ten days, i think all sorts of people in the public have received this crash course in immigration law. what is the flores settlement, what is asylum, what legal rights to undocumented people have? that is only going to intensify as we go forward. we haven't heard a lot of talk about solutions which do exist, such as investing in central america, because right now people are still processing all of this.

but the more coverage that goes on, people will realize, when we talk about detention, that is jail. i think maybe if we have polls that say when they start getting -- wearibearing down an saying do you support putting mothers and babies in jail indefinitely, perhaps overturning a law that mandates that they receive recreation and that they are allowed to be in licensed shelters, when you start getting down into the details, i think the polling will start to change. the great weakness for the republicans, especially right now at a time of record unemployment, where's the policy argument to support this other than being against amnesty and saying that they broke the law, which asylum seekers are not, where is the policy that they can back this up with? they don't have it and that's their weakness, why they keep shifting explanations. >> can i talk a little bit about the reporting that i did today? >> yes, please. >> i just want to jump in and just say there's also a poll from the quinnipiac university released on monday that showed

55% of republicans actually supported separating families. you think, okay, maybe they were asking the question differently. i went down to duluth, minnesota, where the president had a rally and there were multiple people who told me these families deserve to be separated. these kids are being taught a lesson to break u.s. laws and they need to be taught the lesson that they can't come here and they're not welcome here. there are people who of course also think that the president's narrative that there are families that are permanently, quote unquote, separated because of crimes that illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants have done to those families, killing people, even though that's a false claim in terms of the number of people that are killed by undocumented immigrants being very low, there are a lot of americans who agree with the president's stance, the original stance of actually putting these kids in detention camps. i think that there's a large group of people who really believe the president's narrative and love the fact that he was talking about separating them as a deterrent. >> yeah, no, i think that's fascinating. i looked at it just from the standpoint of, you know, hey,

yeah, a majority of republicans support it but we're in this era where every question is 90% republicans over here, 90% of democrats over here. here's one only 55% of republicans but that's worth keeping in mind that you did have a significant chunk of republicans saying, yeah, they're with the president on that even though the overall number was very slanted. yamiche, thank you. appreciate the time from all of you. coming up, a closer look at donald trump's cozy relationship with "the national enquirer." trump and his team were working as shadow editors of sorts, signing off on stories before they went to printing, even pitching damaging articles about rivals. plus the president went on a tweetstorm handing out a flurry of endorsements in the upcoming midterms, but tonight trump's message is getting stepped on. a blistering op-ed. a leading conservative says vote against the gop this november. and melania trump has dominated headlines this week but today a different first lady is speaking out. we'll hear from michelle obama

later in the show. finally the "hardball" roundtable will tell us three things we might not know. this is "hardball," where the action is. to help hand everyone a better world. that's why we, at the coca-cola company, make shore breaks with actual coconuts. tea, organically. treats for celebrations. water with added minerals for taste. dear future us, that's why we're striving to do good. and help our communities get the education they deserve. we're doing this today... ...so you can do even more. the coca-cola company

so what do you call a roseanne show with no roseanne? abc is going to call it "the connors." abc now says that a spin-off will premiere this fall. tom arnold is teaming up with michael cohen to, quote, take down trump. more on that straight ahead. you're watching "hardball." ♪ hello. the new united explorer card hooks me up. getting more for getting away. rewarded! going new places and tasting new flavors. rewarded! traveling lighter. rewarded! (haha) getting settled. rewarded! learn more at theexplorercard.com

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welcome back to "hardball." new reporting on the michael cohen investigation has uncovered more about the strange relationship between donald trump and the sensationalist tabloid "the national enquirer." "the washington post" revealing that, quote, during the presidential campaign, "national enquirer" executives sent

digital copies of the tabloid's articles and cover images related to donald trump and his political opponents to trump's attorney michael cohen in advance of publication. american media, the parent company, has denied the practice. trump is known to be close with the company's ceo, david pecker. the tabloid frequently attacked trump's opponents often with unverified or specious headlines, many of them aimed at hillary clinton. trump suggested stories to pecker on a regular basis and was particularly interested in stories about clinton's health. however, it is probably best remembered for printing unsubstantiated stories about ted cruz, including allegations of marital infidelity and the baseless claim that cruz's father worked with lee harvey oswald in the kennedy assassination. trump spread those stories to bash his rival while claiming he had nothing to do with the tabloid behind the allegations. let's watch. >> i had nothing to do with it. the campaign had absolutely nothing to do with it. he's got a problem with "the

national enquirer." i have no control over "the national enquirer." >> on the cover of "the national enquirer" there was a picture of him and crazy lee harvey oswald having breakfast. now, ted never denied that it was his father. >> what was he doing with lee harvey oswald shortly before the death, before the shooting? it's horrible. but there was a picture on the front page of "the national enquirer" which does have credibility. >> it's up to people to believe it or not to believe it. i'm not writing it myself. i'm not going out and doing the research. i mean if that was "the new york times," they would have gotten pulitzer prizes for their reporting. >> i'm joined by the author of that report, sara ellison, from "the washington post" and john podhoretz. sara, let me start with you to fill in some of the blanks. i think we gave you the basics there, but take us through this relationship between the trump campaign and "the enquirer."

what did that look like behind the scenes and did it look like for the world to see? >> we've known for a long time that donald trump and david pecker, the ceo of american media are friendly and friends and communicated a lot over the years. that's fine, people are allowed to have those kinds of friendships. the other thing we know is "the national enquirer" gave a lot of positive coverage to donald trump and a lot of negative coverage to his opponents. why did that happen? how did that develop? that was one of the things we were interested in figuring out. in my reporting, what i found when i was talking to people was that there were actual stories that were sent prior to publication over to michael cohen with the express purpose of making sure that they were okay with him. >> does this -- is this -- because we heard so much here. in new york donald trump and gossip columnists. is this a similar thing where trump the celebrity, trump the apprentice star has a relationship with the celebrity

tabloid and that just folds into the campaign? is that what happened here? >> i think that's one way to think about it, right? it's totally acceptable for a celebrity or a reality star or someone who is a new york real estate developer to make lots of calls to gossip columnists and want to be a source for lots of information. the rules change a little bit when you are a candidate. you still can talk to as many publications as you want. you can suggest stories. you can -- i mean there's nothing about that that's problematic. the issue becomes one, and this is sort of what the investigators are looking at, is, is "the national enquirer" an extension -- is it part of a campaign apparatus? is there a level of control that this politician or his campaign might have over this publication? >> john, talk about the impact, if there is any, i'm curious what you make of it because use the ted cruz one as an example. "the national enquirer" puts it out there and donald trump is able to get up on tv or at rallies and say, hey, did you

see this? i've read this. people are talking about this story. it's out there. he can say, hey, "the national enquirer" is credible. it gave him an excuse to talk about this in public. do you think things like that ended up having an impact on the election? >> they might have had a minimal impact on the primaries. i don't know what impact they had on the election. the idea that "the national enquirer" is beholden to the rules of proper journalistic conduct is a little preposterous. it is a publication that has for 50 years done nothing but violate every journalistic rule in the playbook, so the notion that it did not hold itself to a proper standard of -- you know, of mainstream conduct is something that i think everybody understood during 2016 who was paying attention. i think more interestingly is what the relationship between trump and "the enquirer" shows

in larger picture about how he got elected. trump began his political life in this modern frame around 2010, 2011, at the tutelage of his conciliary roger stone who introduced him to alex bell and he was deep into the world wrestling federation, into talk radio all over the country. and what we might call -- and "the enquirer." a media that was almost entirely invisible to the mainstream media types like us. by the time he began running for office in 2015, he had built up a very large following among people who have gone totally ignored in the electoral process. and i think jumpstarted his way

into the lead in the republican primaries precisely because he had been so carefully cultiva cultivating that world and that audience that we paid no attention to. >> i think that's a fascinating point, because the average "national enquirer" cover story does not make its way onto msnbc, cnn, "new york times" and yet every day of the week millions of americans at the checkout line in the supermarket are at least seeing the cover, maybe picking it up, maybe buying it, who knows. there is an exposure there you might not see through the coverage and it leads to another question too, which is you look at donald trump and just his history in new york. the stuff that's been reported, the stuff that he's bragged about in some cases. this is a guy who would be rich fodder for a tabloid like "the national enquirer" and yet in 2016, that's not necessarily how the coverage read. >> no, indeed not. i mean in terms of the small tragedy that "the national enquirer" is passing up a very rich topic, they certainly are

doing that with the trump family and donald trump. he would be the perfect sort of person to be covering. i do think the notion that this is a part of the world that msnbc doesn't pay any attention to, "the washington post" doesn't pay attention to, it can pass unnoticed yet it's everywhere in parts of the country where people are developing their impressions. and they say i don't know, hillary clinton, it just seems like her health isn't that good. or ben carson, i've heard he isn't that good a surgeon. where did you hear that? i don't know. we sort of scoff at "the national enquirer" but i do think it's a way of putting something into the ether. >> i know just from the checkout line at the grocery store, you'll see these headlines about a celebrity you haven't thought about in 20 years and the health they say is failing or something. you do remember it. maybe i wonder if something is going on there. sara ellison, john podhoretz,

thank you for taking a few minutes. up next, survivors of the parkland school shooting are turning their grief into activism. chris matthew sat down and talked with one of them about their lead-ups to the 2018 elections. this is "hardball," where the action is. d an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ] -not today, ron. -when will it end? [ ding ]

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mobilized the gun control movement. with school out, the movement is still going strong with the teenagers currently on a road to change tour to get, quote, young people educated, registered and motivated to vote. that's their mission, they say. in his new book "never again, a new generation draws the line" student leader david hogg writes we've always been taught that as americans there is no problem that is out of our reach. anything except for our problem with gun violence, like it's an act of god or a natural disaster, something beyond our control that we are helpless to do anything about. what happened on valentine's day 2018 was neither natural nor an act of god. what happened that day was m manmade, which means as human beings, we have the capacity to do something about it. our generation has the obligation to do something about it. those are david hogg's words there. earlier this week, chris matthew sat down and spoke with him. >> i'm joined by the author, parkland high school graduate, david hogg. david, thank you for joining us. tell us about your goals for the months ahead. >> our main goals for the months

ahead, first off is just getting morally just leaders elected, not just democrats or republicans, but people that actually empathize with students and realize that the people being lost every day are people. they're people just like you and me. they're people just like the people that we care about and they're people that are lost. it's important for people to empathize with those children and adults. that's part of the reason why my sister and i wrote this book is to show people what's going on in this country and how we can't allow these things to continue to happen. even if these aren't affected you yet, don't let them. get out and vote. vote for morally just leaders that are willing to vote for universal background checks, unlike our speaker of the house that won't even bring it to the floor and work together so we can solve this problem as americans. >> in your book, you talk about universal background checks, which you just said. you also said banning high-capacity magazines ammunition and of course assault

weapons, banning those. how about the senators from your state. how about rick scott, who's running for -- he's the governor. and what about marco rubio. where are they on these issues that you talk about in the book? >> marco rubio pretty much refuses to talk to me. that's part of the reason why i'm wearing this price tag which says $1.05. the reasoning behind that is that's the amount of money marco rubio has taken from the nra divided by every student in our state. many lawmakers have been willing to sit down and talk with us, such as senator jeff flake and murkowski. they have actually been willing to listen, up like my senator, marco rubio, in florida. but bill nelson has been able to sit down with us multiple times and asked how he can help. that's the best thing people can do, simply ask how you can help. >> what are you going to tell your voters, and you're a voter, you're 18, voters in florida in the weeks and months ahead before november? >> i'm going to tell them, look, it doesn't matter if they're a democrat or republican, just do their research into who their

special interests are. ask yourself do you want those special interests to be governing you? at the end of the day, it's the corporate special interests that get them elected that are and that's what allows these things to continue. what happened at our school on february 14th happened. if we had politicians that were actually willing to take action after columbine and the nra didn't block things like universal background checks, these things wouldn't continue to happen. understand, this is not anything against nra members. we know that they teach some safety lessons and advocate for safety, but there's also a different part of the organization that advocates actively against universal background checks. not because they don't support them but when they have in the past, they have lost members to things like the gun owners of america. >> let me ask you about the title of your book "never again." those who remember history remember that never again is a historic cry that we never have a holocaust again, happened in europe in the 1940s where 6 million jews were killed and others were killed. is that too strong a title, do

you think? obviously not in your case you think it is. why is your call just as vivid? >> we -- since the beginning of this, when we made the hash tag, we worked through that and we talked about it. i bring this up a lot, i talk about this in the book specifically, how we don't use that term lightly. we don't want these things to happen ever again either and that's the hash tag that we used in the beginning of it and that's part of the trademark of this movement. >> strong language, strong message. good luck to you, sir. david hogg, voter, author, graduate of parkland high school and advocate for gun control and gun safety. the book is "never again, a new generation draws the line." still ahead, ever the optimist, president trump now says congress should stop wasting their time on immigration until more republicans are elected in november. so what are the chances that will actually happen given that yet another leading conservative now out there warning americans, saying they should vote against republicans in november?

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if you want to create a humane, lawful system of immigration, then you need to retire the democrats and elect republicans to finally secure our borders. in the senate, we need, unfortunately, 60 votes. we have 51 votes. we need democrats. they will do anything to obstruct, anything to make it as uncomfortable as possible because they think it's good politics. i actually think it's bad politics. we will see very soon. >> welcome back to "hardball." president trump appears to have given up on congress passing an immigration bill tweeting this morning that republicans, he says, should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators and congressmen and women in november. he then tweeted out endorsements

for republican candidates henry mcmaster, martha roby and ron de santis down in florida. late today conservative columnist george will wrote a stunning column when you consider his history in "the washington post" entitled "vote against the gop this november." referring to congressional republicans as trump's poodles. he says in today's gop which is the president's plaything, he is the mainstream. so to vote against the party's cowering congressional caucuses is to affirm the nation's honor while quarantining him. a democratic-controlled congress would be a basket of deplorables but there would be enough republicans to gum up the senate's machinery, keeping the institution as peripheral as it has been under their control and asphyxiating mischief from a democratic house. with me is zerlina maxwell and

nick confessore. stunning given george will's history. he's been anti-trump but i'm curious, his conservative credentials from reagan, i remember, through newt gingrich days, mr. conservative as columnists go, does that critique of the republican party calling the republican congressmen and women poodles of president trump, you were a republican member of congress, does it resonate with you at all? >> well, mr. will's peevishness under the era of trump is well known so this doesn't surprise me. he's extremely frustrated with the fact that washington is mired in battles. he feels that -- and indeed, president trump has signed -- is on pace to sign more executive orders, potentially, than any president in recent history and that is a symptom, if you will, of the fact that congress has

not been able to pass legislation. >> he's talking about something bigger there. he's talking about the subservient to trump what he sees -- >> steve, i'm really -- i'm not seeing that. having been in the house republican conference, i know many of the republicans who are in the house now, many of them are very independently minded and almost all of them are seeking to represent their districts effectively. there are many, many districts across the country who wholeheartedly support president trump's agenda. an these members -- obviously there are representatives from swing districts, many whose residents do not support the president's agenda. but to propose that we vote democrats and democrats being the party of government would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire basically. >> let me ask zerli na.

there was a school of thought in 2016 that there was a type of republican, a type of george will-like republican that would have that revulsion at donald trump and that would cause some erosion in the suburbs, in places like the suburbs of philadelphia. >> right. >> the famous line from chuck schumer a couple of weeks before the election, for every vote we lose in rural pennsylvania that trump wins over, we're going to get two in the suburbs. i think he was thinking of george will republicans. they didn't really cross over in those numbers in 2016. do you think it's any different in 2018? >> i think that he's making a different argument than we were making. we were saying that donald trump and what he's proposing is so repulsing to common decency that you would vote f a democrat. just to quote joy reid, one of the things she says is that the argument that republican over there is a bad person is not a winning argument if you're a democrat running for office. and so you have to offer something and also provide policy details so that people can support that.

george will is making a different argument. he's saying that this particular president and this particular republican party are morally bankrupt in this moment. we're talking about babies in cages as if it's just another political conversation, just another political debate. it is not. and i think that george will is, just like steve schmidt earlier this week, said that we have to take a stand in this moment as americans, as decent humans, and draw a line and say we are rejecting this essentially white nationalist policy that is putting brown families and their children in detention camps. >> i want to get nick into this. we've got two very different sort of versions here of where the republican party is right now. do you think anything about this week has changed the way any voter looks at the republican party? >> i think absolutely. look, i think george will is singular and there aren't that many george will voters out there. he's one person and he's george

will. but for as long as i've seen anything happening in politics, he has been the epitome of a conservatism of ideas. trump represents a conservatism of blood and soil. there are certain people who are going to look for something different attitude naly but i think trump has the better of this argument. i think most of the party is more like him. it is more a politics of revenge and not of ideas. it's against elites and against people that voters feel have been looking down on them for years and years. and that is what powers that coalition. i'm not sure what's happening on the border is going to change that much, but there are people in the suburbs and elsewhere who look at what's happening and think it's beyond our country to have it that way. >> nan, just -- i'm curious, we showed the numbers earlier. there's a divide in the republican party on -- >> sure. >> we had this question of family separation. it was pretty unpopular overall but which of those camps were you in watching that this week? >> clearly we don't want to see

children separated from families. we also know that the policy of separating children from accompanying adults is not unique to this administration. >> that's not true. jeh johnson was on this network yesterday talking about -- we were putting people in detention but not separating families an putting them in cages. jacob soboroff has also said that repeatedly on these network. he saw it with his own eyes. >> let's -- okay -- i think we should say in 2014 and in the past in the obama administration there was no policy that led to the required separation of families. that's a new thing. there were detention facilities -- >> with unaccompanied people certainly. >> i think there's a legitimate, you know, grounds for debate and

conversation around that. we should say the specific policy here of family separation was the trump folks. hey, it grows out of being zero tolerance, which a lot of other people say is unacceptable under any circumstances. that is a new thing at this moment. the roundtable staying with us. that's a long way of be trying to get to the commercial break but the roundtable is staying with us. more with them. up next, former first lady michelle obama is speaking out about her time in the white house. why she says her family didn't have the luxury to make mistakes. you're watching "hardball." ♪ ♪ ♪ raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ♪ ♪ bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens ♪ ♪ brown paper packages tied up with strings ♪ ♪ these are a few of my favorite things ♪ ♪ ♪

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there was possibly another hint today that michael cohen may be willing to flip on the president. yesterday actor tom arnold tweeted a photograph of himself with cohen, which arnold says was from a meeting they had about a new tv show. cohen then retweeted that photo. and then in the interview with nbc news, arnold recounted his conversation with cohen like this. quote, i say to michael, guess what? we're taking trump down together. he's so tired, he's like okay, and his wife is like okay. blank trump. arnold later clarified that he does not speak for cohen. however, here is what he said about cohen on msnbc when asked if he will flip. >> donald trump does not care about him, he does not care about his family. it's over. michael cohen is going to take care of his family and his country first. that's all you need to know. think about that. >> that's what tom arnold had to say. you can judge for yourself if you want to take that with a grain of salt. we'll be right back.

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we also knew we didn't have the luxury to make mistakes. when you are the first -- i mean i lived my life as the first, the only one at the table, and barack and i knew very early that we would be measured by a different yardstick. making mistakes was not an option for us. not that we didn't make mistakes, but we had to be good. no, we had to be outstanding at everything we did. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was former first lady michelle obama today on the responsibility she says she felt being part of the first black family in the white house. back with our roundtable now. interesting the pressure she's describing there. >> i think every black american can relate to what she's talking about. i was the first and only in many instances in my education and also professional life, and so i think she's correct to say that as the first black family in the white house, they did have to be

perfect. she couldn't say everything that probably she wanted to say or wear things that had messages on them. i think that, you know, the idea that melania trump and michelle obama are graded on the same level, i think that yesterday proves that that's not true. you know, melania trump wore a message on her jacket and it's not really about the jabaccount gentlema -- jacket, don't wear one with a message on it. i think michelle obama is speaking the truth right there. >> in some ways too, melania trump is a first lady like we've never seen before. until yesterday you hadn't heard much from her either. >> she is not in the traditional first lady role. in some ways it's the president's daughter whattin habits that role. she's chosen not to play the traditional role. i think it's great. the whole notion that the wife or the spouse of the president has to be a public helpmate is

very outdated. i think if she wants to stay indoors and do her thing, she should. >> i remember -- >> i agree. i agree. >> i remember in 2004 howard dean was running in '04 and his wife wasn't even campaigning for a long time. he said, hey, she's got her own life, she's a doctor up there in vermont. there was so much pressure she had to come on the campaign trail. >> i have to respect what michelle obama says about her experience because it was her experience. i do feel that mrs. trump is being judged often by a very harsh standard. the jacket message notwithstanding. the president obviously tweeted about it, said what she's saying is she doesn't care what the media say about her. and there have been some pretty harsh and hostile things said about melania trump who i think i agree with you, nick, i think she is a gracious person who is doing her best in a very difficult fish bowl. >> roundtable staying with us. up next, these three will tell me something i don't know. you're watching "hardball."

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we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. nick, tell me something i don't know. >> we all know washington is full of men who talk too much, but it turns out that we also talk to each other too much. according to a new study, when male journalists are responding to somebody on twitter, they are almost always responding to a different male reporter. with that, i will stop talking. >> does that ring true? >> yes. i see this with my own eyes. obviously you need data to back up your points but i think we can all do a better job in engaging women and their journalism and the things that they write and their ideas.

>> interesting. twitter, the whole etiquette is beyond -- retweet, comment on people, the whole thing scares the heck out of me. chris matthews back here on monday night. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> like it or not, these aren't our kids. >> the chaos and the cruelty continue. >> it's a prison-like internment site. >> tonight as the president sinks his own immigration bill, new confusion about reuniting the families donald trump ripped apart, and the trump official with zero experience responsible for caring for separated children. >> it's a whole big con job. >> and is michael cohen about to flip on mr. trump? >> i'll do anything to protect mr. trump. >> why comedian tom arnold says it may have already happened. >> donald trump does not care about