♪ add-on advantage. discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. only when you book with expedia. ♪ ♪ welcome to "kasie d.c." i'm kasie hunt. we are live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight, critical mass. thought our politics were explosive before? try replacing the swing vote on the supreme court. we'll talk about the wild conjecture and what's actually about to happen. at the same time, democrats take stock after a top member of leadership is upset in new york. rising stars ben jealous and jason candor join me live to talk about what their party should do next. and later i travel to utah

to talk with mitt romney on the campaign trail. he's set to become the republican senator in the age of trump. plus, do not congratulate. russia stuns spain at the world cup. but first the interviews, the lobbying effort and even the ads are underway to replace justice anthony kennedy on the supreme court. the president is back home after spending the weekend at bedminster conferring with white house counsel don mcgahn. a handful of names are floating around from the president's list of 25. democrats are pushing to postpone the confirmation until after the midterms. >> my colleagues on both sides of the aisle know that this vote could be one of the key votes of their entire career. if they vote for somebody who is going to change precedent, it could be a career-ending move. >> you don't need a degree in applied physics to understand the forces that democrats are up against. so for the white house, it's striking the right balance. convince republicans to hang

together and change the court for decades to come. >> i think it's going to go very quickly. i think we're going to have a lot of support. i think we're going to have support from democrats. frankly, i think -- if it's the right person. i'm going to pick the right person. i'm going to pick somebody that's outstanding and everybody on that list is outstanding. a lot of people think it's going to be a very -- it's probably going to be vicious because the other side, all they can do is obstruct and resist, you know the whole thing is resist. >> i'd like to welcome in my outstanding panel, two of the best reporters in the country on the supreme court legal affairs from npr, anyone a totenberg and justice correspondent pete williams. in new york former federal prosecutor georgetown university prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst paul butler. pete and anyonnina, i'd like tot the conversation off with you. as we were going on the air, i thought i should step back and let the two of you tell our viewers what is about to unfold. pete, just to start out, the context of this, everybody has

cast this retirement as one that is unlike any other, at least in the last generation. do you think that is a fair characterization? >> the last 50 years or so, ever since the nixon administration and earl warren stepped off the court and warren berger took his place. i'd say every time i hear a reporter say the trump nominee could change the supreme court, i think what's this could stuff? of course it's going to change the supreme court because anthony kennedy really, after sandra day o'connor stepped down in 2006, he has been the key vote. really, for most of the cases we pay attention to, you can't win without anthony kennedy. if he votes with the liberals, you get a liberal outcome. if he votes with the conservatives, you get a conservative outcome. that vote is about to be replace bid a conservative. the conservatives will have a solid majority and that's going to make a huge difference. >> nina, let's step back a minute.

for those of us who have not watched the court as long as you've had the privilege to, there is some sense of question as to how somebody like anthony kennedy got on the court in the first place. these debates are so polarized now. >> he got on the court actually because president reagan nominated robert bork who was a hard core conservative to the core, and bank of new york was soundly defeated. he then put up another nominee who had to withdraw because it turned out that he had been smoking marijuana. >> you can do that nowadays. >> you can do that nowadays. at the time, though, the reagan administration wouldn't hire anybody in the justice department who had admitted to smoking marijuana and they never asked him that question apparently when he went to work at the reagan justice department. so, he went by the wayside, but stayed a distinguished federal judge. that left -- they really -- they needed to pick somebody and it

was, you know, it was time. and justice kennedy got the nod and he was a pretty conservative guy. and they looked at all of his writings and they were concerned about his -- some footnote that he wrote about respect for privacy, but they decided to overlook it and there were people in the administration later who didn't like the fact that they had overlooked it. i mean, they thought that was a bad thing. >> and just -- i would add two things to that. number one, remember that justice kennedy we talk about today is not the one that came onto the court back in 1988. secondly, you had this sort of more moderate push. once bank of new york gork got next nominee was conservative. >> the democrats controlled the senate. >> it's not like you go from

conservative to more moderate. they're all pretty mainstream conservative. even if something happened to this nominee, whoever it's going to be, it's not like the next one up would be very different. >> to rain on the parade a little -- >> i'm sorry, paul, go ahead. >> i want to rain on the parade regarding justice kennedy swing. he did swing, but mainly to the right, and so he wrote the majority opinion in citizens united, that case that said corporations are like people. he also voted for bush in bush versus gore. so on certain issues like lgbt issues, he got it in the way most conservatives don't. but in other kinds of civil rights issues not so much. >> and the voting rights act, of course. >> voting rights act, exactly. pete, quickly, you have a short list of -- based on your reporting of that kind of list, the 25 that the president had compiled. and to this point about conservative to conservative, one thing that's been raised in my reporting is the idea if they were to select a woman -- the

woman on this list, amy conan barrett of indiana -- is that something where you have a sense that on questions of precedent, questions of roe v. wade she could have an easier time getting through the senate or be somebody who could make them feel better about the issues? >> not necessarily. she had said roe was erroneously decided is the term she used. to be fair, ruth bader ginsburg said the same thing. it came to the court too fast and the court shouldn't have decided it. but nonetheless, remember she just got on the court of appeals by president trump, so she's been there for about a year. she's already survived the senate confirmation. she was a law professor at notre dame. now she's a federal judge. i heard the president say or someone say the president was going to talk to perhaps two women, and for the life of me i'm not sure who the second woman is. >> i'm not either. let me say something about the list of the president's. the list as much as a political

document, the people who compiled it didn't think it was a political document, the folks at the society and heritage foundation. they don't think they're mainstream conservatives. they think they're movement conservatives. those 25 folks are movement conservatives. they're people who have been waiting a long time to look at vast quantities of the law, very, very differently. and the president -- the first list was 12, i think. president was so thrilled that it reassured the evangelicals, got such great press in the conservative press about it, he said let's do it again. and that -- then they added a couple more people. but that's the list. and the list is not what we used to call a mainstream conservative. it may be some day mainstream, but today, even on this court i would say the people on this list would be on the far-right of the court. >> paul, can i get you to weigh in? it's a good point. this is something that was compiled as president trump was trying to demonstrate his bona

fides in the primary. >> it doesn't matter that the president won't ask how they feel about roe v. wade or lgbt rights. he already knows. president trump said something unusually sage and learned on friday. he said, apart from war, this is the most important decision a president makes, and maybe that's why he's outsourced this process to this far-right federalist society. again, i think he thinks that the gorsuch nomination was one of the highlights of his presidency, so he wants to do it all over again. again, you can't overstate how conservative gorsuch is. he's more conservative than scalia who he replaced. he's about level with justice clarence thomas, one of the most conservative people ever to sit on the supreme court. >> yeah, i actually want to -- forgive me for my control room loop here. i want to read part of this piece -- part of your piece. you say that after 30 years on the court, he believes that once rights are recognized they will

not be taken away. that includes the right to abortion that he helped to preserve and rights for gay people he helped to establish, the right to marry and be treated equally. time will tell, but every indication is president trump in a little over a week is someone who does not think those rights are fully protected by the constitution. i think we have the sound. >> one of the concepts that really means a lot in america is you don't overturn precedent unless there is a good reason. and i would tell my pro-life friends, you can be pro life and conservative, but you can also believe in story decisis. roe v. wade has been affirmed many years. i hope the justice that sits on the court, all of them, would listen to the arguments on both sides before they decide it. the story decisis is a well known concept in our law. >> nina, for people who are watching this unfold and who are worried, for whatever reason, but let's take people who are

worried because they believe that they want roe v. wade upheld, what's the real likelihood that this is going to be a major confrontation down the line? are there cases wanting their way through the system now? >> what i always said was it's not going to be overturned as long as kennedy is there. kennedy is gone. i think the odds are not bad that it might be overturned. and what if there is yet another -- i mean, we have two other members of the court, steve briar, 77, ruth ginsburg is 85. i think there are two ways to go here. you can expect that it will be whittled away so that you can have a lot -- make abortion pretty -- just about inaccessible in the 20 or so states that have tried to do that. >> sometimes it already is. >> or it will be overturned outright. i don't foresee another one of

these coalitions coming together that says, look, this has been the law for 50, 40 some odd years and we're going to respect it. that's what story decisis is, respecting precedent. to us, the people who want to overturn it, is like racial segregation. they want to overturn it because it was wrong in their view. >> pete williams, what's your reporting on this and how realistic is it that there are cases that will wind their way through that would ultimately lead to an overturning of roe v. wade? >> there is no shortage of cases in the states that have tried repeat lid to overturn roe. the more recent trend with ken dip on the court has been to say, well, that's a lost cause. so the action has been in the states to, as nina say, restrict access. instructive example. texas passed a law that said a clinic that provides abortion services has to be built to the same standards as an ambulatory care center and the doctors who

perform the abortions have to have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital. no hospital would give them admitting privileges. it was a sort of, in essence, a ban on abortion. the supreme court shot that down with justice kennedy voting with the liberals. so, without him there it's more likely, as nina said, these restrictions on abortion, age, consent, time of pregnancy when it's available, types of services, restrictions on medication abortions, they're much more likely to be upheld even if roe survives. >> very interesting. much more to come when "kasie d.c." continues. rod rosenstein faces down congress as the mueller probe quietly presses on. plus, demonstrations break out across the country as the immigration debate stalls yet again. and later i'm joined by former communications director anthony scaramucci amid rumors of new white house shake ups. as we go to break, we dug deep into our vaults for a news reel on how we got to this moment for the supreme court. when republicans blocked even a hearing for merit garland.

>> the sproupreme court, the highest court in all the land, where are the justices now? in their black robes and the -- yes, their appointments last for life. and when one dies or retires, we go helter-skelter, crazier than a soup sandwich. and today our seat sits open on the high court's bench. here's president barack obama pleading to accept his nominee. >> i ask that they confirm merritt garland to the supreme court. >> merritt garland, mr. moderate. democrats say he's an ideal choice, but not so fast. the grand old party has their game faces on and are ready to play hardball. >> it is clear president obama has made his nomination to politicize it for purposes of the election. >> that's right, leadership marks precedent vowing not to

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mr. rosenstein, why are you keeping information from congress? >> sir, i'm not keeping any information from congress. >> the house of representatives is going to say otherwise. >> your use of this technique -- >> mr. rosenstein, did you threaten staffers on the house intelligence committee? media reports indicate you did.

>> media reports are mistaken. >> sometimes, but this is what they said. having the nation's number one law enforcement officer threaten to subpoena your cause in e-mails is down right chilling. did you threaten to subpoena their cause in e-mail s? >> no, sir, and there is no way to subpoena phone calls. >> i'm just saying. who are we supposed to believe, staff members who we've worked with, who never misled us, or you guys who we've caught hiding information from us who tell a witness not to answer our questions? who are we supposed to believe? >> thank you for making it clear it's not personal, mr. jordan. >> i'm saying the department of justice -- >> i'm telling the truth and i'm under oath. >> those are just some of the heated exchanges we saw on thursday as fbi director christopher wray and deputy attorney general rod rosenstein faced off with members of the house judiciary committee. the house also passed a resolution in the middle of that hearing seeking to compel documents from the justice department regarding the russia investigation. joining our conversation former u.s. attorney and msnbc

contributor joyce vance. joyce, i'll start with you on what we just saw. and i know you were paying attention to it over the course of the week. it was really, i thought, a remarkable display for them to so publicly attack rosenstein. >> it was incredible. this was the deputy attorney general, the number two guy in the justice department, testifying under oath and being accused of lying by a member of congress. while that deputy attorney general is in the middle of supervising the turnover to congress of an unprecedented level of documentation in an ongoing investigation. >> and the president has -- he did an interview with maria bartiromo of facts and talked about why he -- or how his involvement is coming to be. we'll take a look the about it, and paul butler i'll ask you about t. >> are you going to ask them to get those documents over to congress? >> i may get involved. i've been told by so many people don't get involved.

it's not good. and they'll get the documents and it's getting and they're getting them, and they're great people. i didn't like the scene the other day where everybody was screaming at each other. i don't like that because it's bad for the country. if russia is, in fact, looking to sow discord or chaos, they have to be saying this is the greatest thing we've ever done. >> paul butler, what is your take on the president's words? that was in many ways -- i'm not sure i heard him acknowledge the russian's goal was to sow discord. >> i know rod rosenstein, we started at the justice department as prosecutors. he's normally the textbook example of non-emotive. i've never seen him as angry at the congressional hearing. add to the mix of the reporting that he feels exploited or used by president trump when he wrote that memo, when trump got him to write that memo justifying the firing of james comey, i'm sure

trump would love to fire rosenstein right now, but republicans on the hill said that's a line that he shouldn't cross. and so it's rosenstein who gets to make the decisions about what documents are shared with the congress. and again, i think he's going to toe the line and the president has to basically, you know, follow the will of the career public servant which is exactly what he should do. >> pete williams, you have covered the fbi for many years and i feel like i watch you on television all the time and you say, we have no comment because this is an ongoing criminal investigation. it seems unprecedented to me the number of documents of an ongoing criminal investigation that the fbi is turning over to congress. >> well, it is. and i think to some extent, the former fbi director shares some of the reasons that this is happening. but let's step back and see what's happening. we do have two separate branches of government. when a criminal investigation is going on, it's traditionally been the view of the justice department, no matter whether

republican or democrat in the white house, that you don't turn over to congress your investigative materials. you just don't do that. and these members know that. and i think they're trying to get it for two reasons. one is to undercut the credibility of mueller's investigation. but secondly, to try to sort of set-up rod rosenstein for failure. to get him to say no so that they can cite him for contempt or something. but i do think that james comey bears some of the responsibility for why this is happening because after the clinton e-mail investigation, he gave huge amounts of information to congress. now, granted, the investigation was over, at least they thought it was at that point. but he gave them the fbi interviews, the so-called 302s that joyce and nina know all about, the raw interview -- >> what time frame was this? >> this was shortly after his testimony. >> okay. >> after his july news conference. i think he thought that it would -- members of congress would read this and say, oh, i get it, i see why james comey did what he did. what he did was create 535 g-men

that thought they can now get access to these documents. >> as somebody who covers congress every day, that image i find mildly terrifying. >> it should be grossly terrifying. >> g-men, oh, boy. so, trey gowdy has been somebody who has gone back and forth on this, he drew a lot of attention when he defended mueller's investigation. but he had some pretty tough words in this hearing. take a look. >> russia attacked this country. they should be the target, but russia isn't being hurt by this investigation right now. we are. this country is being hurt by it. we are being divided. we've seen the bias. we've seen the bias. we need to see the evidence. if you have evidence of wrongdoing by any member of the trump campaign, present it to the dam grand jury. if you have evidence that this president acted inappropriately, present it to the american people. whatever you got, finish it the

hell up. because this country is being torn apart. >> so, nina, he raises this point in here we need to see the evidence, if you have any evidence of wrongdoing by the trump campaign. it raises the question whether there ultimately will be a potential supreme court case around what comes out of the mueller investigation. and there's also been part of the conversation around the justice if they select somebody, should they have to recuse themselves. >> there very well could be just on the question of whether or not the president agrees to testify. if he says, no, i'm not going -- to have his deposition taken. if he says no, i'm not going to be interviewed by mueller and then they subpoena him, then -- and then trump lawyers challenge the subpoena, it will go to the supreme court and it will matter what that justice who is sitting where justice kennedy was, what he thinks. at least one of the potential nominees has written that he thinks that the president should be excused from civil suits and

from this kind of -- from special prosecutors entirely. >> that's brett kavanagh. >> that's brett kavanagh. i don't know whether he thought that was something that congress should do or that the court should do frankly, but to be fair, this is a -- you know, the position that the president has taken from time to time is -- and this is only a slight exaggeration because he said, i could go out and shoot somebody in the middle of 5th avenue and nobody -- my base wouldn't care. and he apparently thinks, from everything he said, that he ought to control the justice department and he would not be subject to prosecution. now, that's -- that's a stretch for me and mr. gowdy, with all deference to mr. gowdy, the reason they haven't finished their investigation is this involves a foreign nation and intelligence and not just was somebody taking money from the

cookie jar. >> joyce vance -- >> it's pretty complicate and had it takes a little bit of time. it does take time. >> a little bit or a long time. joyce vance, the last word on gowdy and i what we saw here. >> gowdy's questioning of rosenstein is interesting because we know the mueller investigation has already produ produced indictments. the one of the campaign managers is sitting in prison awaiting trial. as representative gowdy well knows, it is entirely possible mueller has taken more to the grand jury. there are sealed indictments that haven't yet been made public and mueller has, in fact, already taken the evidence that gowdy is complaining doesn't exist, to a grand jury. one suspects that this russian troll farm indictment that's already public will have an american component, perhaps involving stone or other close advisors of the president in the coming weeks. >> it's going to be a long hot summer in washington starting this weekend. we're all in 90 degree heat.

nina, paul, joyce, paul butler, thank you to you. the ink is dry on the executive order and protests break out across the country as the country's immigration policy remains unresolved. we're back after this. still a chance here. it's willingham, edge of the box, willingham shoots... goooooooaaaaaaaallllllll! that...was...magic. willingham tucks it in and puts the championship to bed. sweet dreams, nighty night. as long as soccer players celebrate with a slide, you can count on geico saving folks money. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. pressure, what pressure? the players on the...

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welcome back to "kasie d.c." in just eight days, president trump will announce his pick to replace retiring justice anthony kennedy on the supreme court. right now the president says he is considering about five people to fill that vacant slot, including two women. joining me now, former white house communications director anthony scaramucci. mr. scaramucci, it is good to see you. i have to ask you first about this tmz, i think, caught up with you and asked you about who the president is going to pick for the supreme court. can you again tell us who you think he's going to choose? and also how do you know? >> well, that's my guess. i mean, that would be my vaguest sports guess. it's only because of the closeness of the family, the fact that mary trump barry is on the third circuit with him.

he's a great judge, a very down to earth guy. but then when i said that, i didn't realize that there were going to be two women on the list of finalists. and so that probably alters my view a little bit. i mean, it could be possible that the president will pick one of those two women. so i'm a little less confident than i was when i did the tmz interview. >> you think there is anyway in the world he deviates from this list of 25? there was some speculation about senator mike lee, or do you think we're definitely going to get somebody on this list he publpu published? >> i can only go by what we discussed during the campaign and what led up to gorsuch. i think he's going to stick to the list. he likes that list. i also feel he made a campaign promise he was going to pick people off the list. he then said after justice gorsuch got on the court he was going to add people to the list, which he did. so i think it would be

uncharacteristic of him if he goes off the list. having said that, the people that they are talking about, should there be another retirement, i could see him adding other people to the list, like the ones that have been talked about. >> i want to talk to you, too, a little about trade and tariffs. this, of course, something your business background, you have weighed in and people have noticed. here's what the had to say about it in his fox interview, and we'll talk about it. >> would it be better to actually have our allies together to go against china instead of pushing back on our allies? >> excuse me. the european union is possibly as bad as china, just smaller, okay. it's terrible what they did to us. european union, take a look at the car situation. they send their mercedes in. we can't send our cars in. look what they do to our formers. they don't want our farm products. in all fairness, they have their farmers so they want to protect their farmers. but we don't protect ours and they protect theirs. >> you tweeted critically of the

president apartmen president's policy on that position saying he needs to, quote, change tactics now. what doesn't the president get about this, in your view? >> this is the thing. when people say i'm tweeting critically, i'm just really offering a bird's eye advice objectively. it's like the same thing with the child separation act. i said that that's a ridiculous policy. it has to be reversed. i think what sometimes happens is you're sitting in an echo chamber, kasie, and everybody wants to reaffirm each other's biases. >> you called on the president to change tactics now. >> i did. and the called on the president to reverse the child separation policy as well. but the reason i want to change tactics now is i spent a lot of time analyzing the situation and looking at flow of funds data, not only in europe, but here in the united states as well as china. and one of the things the president has done an amazing job of is he's boosted consumer confidence and the tax cut has

led to a stimulation of the economy. not just our economy, but the global economy. what you're watching is the rhetoric and the tension and the escalation of the trade rhetoric is causing a loss of confidence that is very, very bad for market psychology. and so i'm just sending up a warning flare to my friend and saying, listen, one way to change tactics here, the europeans and the united states, roughly a billion people, 46% of the world's gdp, both have issues with china. the president could say, listen why don't we address the imbalances that we both have with china first and then we can workout concession was each other. the only thing i disagree with the president on, i say this with great respect. i want him to win in the worst possible way and i'm loyal to him. >> you have said that. >> you have to understand the history of what happened with us and europe. go back to the marshall plan, go back to the '47-'48 gad

agreement. you'll see why these are imbalanced. we were -- i'm sorry? >> the canadians today, i understand the point you're making about europe. >> okay. >> to expand that broadly to canada, the canadians slapped counter tariffs on us, on america today. do you think that the president is damaging the country in creating a trade war with our closest ally across our border? >> i would say not yet, no. i don't think any real damage has happened yet -- >> -- reverse course? >> the market is telling you that. it doesn't matter what you think or i think, kasie. the market is telling you that. if you look at flow of funds data and you look at the last six months of market activity, the stock market was up roughly 2.5% for the first six months. that's the worst half of a year since 2010 when we've had a very -- great period of robust growth and low monetary policy.

so, the market is getting in a defensive position and girding itself. and what i don't like about what's going on is the president set the tempo for american ceos, business leaders large and small. america is open for business, let's invest in the country. let's repatriate capital back from overseas. the trade rhetoric is slowing people down and he's a very, very smart guy. he's an entrepreneur. he adapted on the child separation policy. i figure he can adapt here quickly where we can leave the economy growing and still address the trade issue. i think he's right on the trade issue, but i think he's wrong to go at both sides as aggressively as he's going. now, a lot of people will be criticizing me for saying that. that's fine. i think it is very, very important that we have smart people sitting in the room and offering different advice, which may or may not be inside the consensus. >> speaking of people sitting inside the room, there's been a lot of chatter. this comes up from time to time, but there seems to be some more

concrete details around chief of staff, john kelly potentially leaving. there's rumors, i would say, about sarah huckabee sanders and her tenure in the administration. we're running out of time, but quickly i want to know what you take first of all on the leaks out of the administration, what you make of those. second of all, has anybody been in touch with you about making a return run? >> no, thank god, no one has been in touch with me. but quickly, sarah's great. if general kelly is leaving, i wish him well. and the president will pick somebody hopefully that really likes him so he can start building a team around him, of people that really like the president as opposed to this establishment nonsense. the president has an agenda -- >> do you think the president has been effective? >> well, listen, you know, i have spoken about it before so i don't want to be the guy that's like beating the tommy-tom drum. do you think he's effective? >> that's a yes or no question. >> kasie, do you think he's been effective? i'll leave you this one last

thought. he wasn't capable of bringing one person into the white house. he didn't recruit one person. usually leadership, people want to work for you or work under you. they come running through the door to come work for you. so, listen, him and i don't like each other. it's totally fine. i don't want to make it personal, but just analyze it and be objective about it. and by the way, he only gave me 11 days as a communications director. three or four more days, i would have fired several of those people that are still leaking on the president right now. >> anthony scaramucci, thank you very much. happy holiday to you. >> happy 4th, kasie, happy 4th. >> coming up, a growing number of democrats call to abolishites as the immigration reaches a tipping point. you're watching "kasie d.c." oh, you brought butch. yeah! (butch growls at man) he's looking at me right now, isn't he? yup. (butch barks at man) butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. (laughs)

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over the weekend, demonstrators filled the streets in cities across the country to protest the trump administration's zero-tolerance immigration policy. meanwhile, the department of homeland security released a scathing internal review which found that i.c.e. failed to adequately monitor hundreds of detention facilities here in the u.s. for years. just last week, i spoke with senator kamala harris about calls to abolish i.c.e. more and more democrats are in favor of getting rid of the agency. >> i think there's no question that we've got to critically reexamine i.c.e. and its role and the way that it is being administered and the work it is doing and we need to probably

think about starting from scratch. >> i think it's too aggressive and over the top and i think it's lost its course. so we should replace it with something sensible, something practical. they still have to be a law enforcement agency but one that is a little more humane. >> we should froe text families that need our help and that is not what i.c.e. is doing today. start over, reimagine it, and build something that actually works. >> we can replace it with a humane agency that is directed toward safe passage rather than criminalization. >> we need to rebuild our immigration system from top to bottom, starting by replacing i.c.e. with something that reflects our morality and our -- >> joining me now on set, political reporter for axios, alexa mccanaan. chief correspondent for cnbc, john harwood. and contributor raul reyes.

raul, i want to start with you. these abolish i.c.e. cries really that are sweeping through the 2020 democratic establishment, what's your take on how that unrolls going forward? is it akin to republicans who have said abolish the irs, kind of knowing that ultimately taxes were never going to stop being collected? or is it something that speaks to a potential reality down the road? >> no, my take on this is that this growing movement which is increasingly as the clips show becoming mainstream, it reflects like such profound disenchantment with the role of this agency. some people see the calls to abolish i.c.e. as really a flat out call to end the agency. others see it -- other progressives see it as more of a starting point for a broader discussion about the role of the agency. here are the facts. it is a fact that i.c.e. has unleashed tremendous harm among latino and immigrant

communities. i.c.e. also sweeps up hundreds of u.s. citizens who cannot prove with papers on them that they are indeed citizens. so, this is an agency that has done a lot of damage and that, i think on the progressive side of the party, the swiftness of this movement going mainstream reflects that. so, to me it's more than just, you know, calls to abolish the irs. what i'm hearing a lot of is the push back on the right saying without i.c.e. we'll have open borders and there will be no immigration enforcement. whereas that is a misrepresentation of the issue because i.c.e. does not handle our borders. that's the role of the border patrol, customs and border protection, so we can have a strong border and we can have a new agency handling interior enforcement. interior enforcement is the job of i.c.e. >> john harwood, the kind of politics around this and the discrepancy between some of the younger alexandra or tcortez.

i'm taking to hillary clinton that you don't insist on a policy that isn't going to become law, and bernie sanders making it idealism saying we have to do all these things. it seems to me that the young -- the energy in the party is with, you know, the idealism. >> it is, but this is one area where i think the fact that you don't have a singular leader of the democratic party right now is an advantage. presidential nominees and presidents define their parties. and so when you have members of congress, there are a whole lot of them. i doubt that nancy pelosi and chuck schumer are going to make abolishing i.c.e. a core democratic issue in this campaign, and so the fact that a few people are calling for this and rallying progressives around that, i don't think it has the same kind of potential that the president's talking about, to cast the entire party as the

radical left. i just don't see that happening. >> alexis, let's not forget there is from what we can tell 2000 or so children who are separated from their families, and this really does seem to be -- abolish i.c.e. had been something activists had been using as a hashtag and focused on, but it really exploded into the mainstream after those child separation tz. >> right, because they think this is an issue that moves the democratic base in a way we haven't seen in a while. abolish i.c.e. is a perfect antithesis trump supporters chant to this day even though he's not running for reelection. among this revved uprising grassroots activist base in the democratic party. if they think they can use them, saying democrats are calling for open borders, i think it will be hard for them to make the argument that you can have strong borders and abolish i.c.e. a senior democratic source said

no one means this in a literal sense. the source said they mean it, to abolish i.c.e. is symbolic. the cultural argument of what is going on, whether it's children being separated or the president calling for deportations. it might not lead to the actual abolition of i.c.e. >> not necessarily practical. >> right. >> there was a memo that went out from the congressional hispanic caucus that essentially made the argument that hey, it might be better for everybody if he we cooled it down and instead focused on our actual immigration laws and not the enforcers, so to speak. what did you make of that memo? >> when i saw -- i did see the story about the memo. to me it sort of reflects that the caucus has maybe not wrapped their collective mind around how to deal with this issue, which has come up so quickly. but i would say that my sense is that this movement, it's real. it's not a sort of a theoretical call like abolish i.c.e. just in the sense of pushing back on trump. and when many people are calling

to abolish i.c.e., they're not saying to do away with any interior immigration enforcement. they are saying the agency as we know it should either be reformed, the duties should be given to gnaw entity, or there should be some type of radical restructuring of the agency. it doesn't seem that anyone is saying we shouldn't do immigration enforcement which is to a certain extent necessary in this country. >> raul reyes, thank you very much for your perspective on this. >> thank you. >> i really appreciate it. just ahead, the supreme court, mid terms and a shocking fall from leadership. it's an interesting time to be a democrat. in my next hour, i'm joined by two high profile candidates, ben jealous and jason kander, who is running for mayor of kansas city. we're back after this. starting with features designed to make it easy for your driver to find you. taking the stress out of pickups. and we're putting safety at the heart of everything we do. with a single tap, we're giving you new ways to let loved ones know you're on your way.

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welcome back. less than a month after president trump's historic summit with kim jong-un, u.s. intelligence officials have confirmed to nbc news that north korea is increasing fuel production for nuclear weapons at multiple secret sites across the country. one official put it bluntly, quote, there is absolutely unequivocal evidence that they are trying to deceive the united states. jen harward, the president just, let's see, june 13th said, quote, there is no longer a nuclear threat from north korea, end quote. >> that's ridiculous, and he -- we're now discovering and it's being made plain that it was ridiculous. and the real question is this

going -- is this revelation going to prove destabilizing to this whole situation. the president went there, was operating, it appeared under the illusion that they were going to denuclearize. then when north korea said out loud, no, we're not. then he canceled the summit, then he rescheduled it. they took pictures. they put out a piece of paper that really didn't say anything at all. >> then we canceled our military exercises with south korea. >> we canceled our military exercises. he came home and said everybody, sleep safer because they're going to totally denuclearize, and they've already begun. that's not true. if in fact the president now connects to reality and sees that that's not happening, is he then going to blow up at chairman kim. >> no pun intended. >> and are we going to have a hostility? who knows. >> okay. john, alexi, stay with me because just ahead, michael steele and chef any ciroc are

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this morning the president is preparing to change the course of history. >> president trump will announce his supreme court nominee a week from tomorrow. >> the stakes for democrats could not be higher. >> this decision will shape the court for years to come. >> this vote could be one of the key votes of their entire

career. >> i would like the senate to delay. >> i think that's a ridiculous argument. >> the most important thing here is a record showing fairness. >> you want someone that's going to uphold precedent. >> conservative, not crazy, solid. >> we're willing to pick somebody who is outstanding. >> the president is looking for someone who will overturn roe roe versus wade. >> i don't think at the end of the day it's about roe v wade. >> are you going to ask your nominees beforehand how they might vote on roe versus wade? >> that's a big one, and probably not. they're all saying don't do that. >> he doesn't need to ask that question because those nominees on his list have already been screened. >> it's probably going to be vicious because the other side, all they can do is obstruct and resist. you know the whole thing is resist. >> welcome to our second hour of "kasie dc." i like to welcome in my panel. former rnc chairman michael steele. cnbc editor at large john

harwood. the president of emily's list, stephanie schriock, and alexi mccammond. thank you all for being here tonight. i want to start by looking at 51 republicans in arizona. with john mccain at home battling brain cancer, the fate of the supreme court nominee rests in the hands of about a half dozen critical senators. on the democratic side, heidi heitkamp, and joe manchin up for reelection and they voted for neil gorsuch. they also all paid visits to the white house this week. i caught up with senator manchin on capitol hill ahead of his meeting with the president. >> do you think voters in west virginia want to see you vote for president trump's nominee? >> you know, i think they want me to do my job. i would hope so, kasie. my job is to make sure the person with the best qualifications gets that position. >> so, john harwood, let me start with you on just the incredible pressure that susan collins and lisa murkowski are

going to be under under this dynamic. clearly the white house is aware of that as they kind of go through their list. and from my reporting, republicans on the hill are pushing the president, would like the president to pick a woman to get them on board. >> i suspect they will be on board. i think the signals that susan collins sent today saying, well, i wouldn't want somebody who made it a litmus test, but gorsuch is not necessarily anti-roe v wade. the point in the clip you played is correct. all the ones on the list are going to go after roe v wade either directly or by a thousand cuts. and so i think if susan collins, who has signaled that she is likely to go along does, i think that makes it more likely that murkowski does, and jeff flake already said he is not going to stand in the way. he's had concerns about terror policy. i think we're going to have a pitched battle, but i think we know the outcome, stephanie schriock, what do you want to

see from democratic senators as they try to fight against this nominee? >> i mean, this is just another example of elections matter. and when you're sitting with 49 democrats or independented who caucus with the democrats, it puts you in a little bit of a pickle. that being said, the energy on the ground by women and women voters is extraordinary. it just keeps building every single week in every state. i believe those women are going to go in and talk to their senator, including senator collins and senator murkowski and across this country, and i expect that the pressure is going to be very, very big. and i expect the democratic senators to do their job. they've got to hold -- they've got to hold the line here because it has been clear that the list that donald trump is going to use -- and he has also made it clear that he is looking for justices that are going to dismantle roe v wade. we know the list. they've all been vetted. they are already ready to

dismantle our access to reproductive health care, and that's got to be stopped. >> what do you say to heidi heitkamp when she says hey, i'm risking my seat with this? >> i think these senators are going to look at this very closely and also listen to their constituents. and so i think it's really important for the constituents to step up and be heard. we also have to put pressure on these republicans. it's not just the democrats here. we need a republican vote here, and i think that's where the pressure really needs to be. >> phil rucker over at "the washington post" wrote trump has told investigators he is a looking for three overarching attributes. first, trump insists on an extraordinarily well qualified nominee with a superlative resume. the president is especially drawn to contenders with name brand degrees such as from ivy league universities like harvard or yale. he also wants to see a portfolio of solid academic writing, those this adviser acknowledged that trump does not care to read it. he simply wants to know that it

exists. michael steele? go! welcome back to "kasie dc." it's good too see you again. >> it's so good to be back in the neighborhood. it doesn't get any more precious than that. do you write well? yes, i do sir. have you read some of my work? no, but i'm sure you're good at it. here is the thing. i think that this is going to be a lot less drama than folks believe in the end. and i'll tell you one reason why is i think we're going to get gorsuch 2.0. i think the president is going to nominate someone for this seat that is not going to stir, because he ultimately, his political strategy is to get beyond movement so he -- the big name, the big drop will come when the next retiree happens. i think with this one you're going see gorsuch 2.0 which is why the two senators murkowski and collins on the republican side will be in play. and democratic senators who are on the bubble a little bit won't

have to worry. they can cast that vote, and their seats will be okay back in their neighborhoods. and then the bigger fight, though, comes in the next round when there is another retirement, because that is when you have the real shift in the court that's going -- >> i don't know, alexi mccammond, i think they're going to be under incredible pressure on this one. i don't think democratic voters are going to let this go. >> that is the interesting thing that we have to watch. these red state democratic senators are in the worst position possible. they either vote for this nominee and depress the democratic base in their states, and they're already incredible vulnerable seats, or they vote against this nominee and rev up republicans in their states who are looking to vote to replace them. given that they voted for gorsuch, if michael is right and it's sort of gorsuch 2.0, they are let off easily, but it come downs to them considering what values do they have, is it their senate seat that is more important or the supreme court. >> stephanie schriock, i think you disagree with michael steele? >> oh, i absolutely do.

>> surprise! >> i think justice kennedy, though i can disagree with a lot of his decisions from citizen united from other things. but when it comes to roe v wade, he actually was the deciding vote. this is a decision on what's going to happen with reproductive. and keep in mind that seven out of ten, seven out of ten americans believe that we should not touch roe v wade. and the federal society and the president -- >> roe v wade is going to be touched directly in this round. tell me the case that is going to do that. what case is going through the federal system right now that will overturn roe versus wade tomorrow? that case is not in play at the moment. but here is the -- >> as soon as justice gets into place, there is going to be two, five, ten legislatures that are going to pass a law immediately. >> and those cases will work their way through the system, all right? and this why i said what i said. because i believe the chief justice will be the new kennedy on this court. until -- >> that's an interesting take. >> until that next replacement come, then you've got a strong

6-4 conservative majority, and it doesn't matter if you have someone like a justice kennedy at that point. >> do you buy that? the justice roberts could be the next anthony kennedy? >> boy, i would not -- i don't want to count my access to reproductive health care on whether or not jean-roberts is going to make the right decision. that makes me very, very nervous. >> it's possible. we've already seen it on the health care issue, on the health care case. >> yeah. >> we've seen it on several other cases. you know, i get why the left is playing the abortion card. i really do. and i know it's serious. but i think the real push will come on the back end of this appointment, not on the front end of it. >> but i'm really bothered by the fact that you called it the abortion card. when this announcement came down, we had -- at emily's list, i had young staff in tears worrying about whether or not they were going to get access to birth control. this is such a personal fear for

young women across this country because we're not just talking about access to abortion. i do believe we're ultimately talking about access to birth control. women are terrified. >> where are you getting that from? >> look, the right, to stephanie's point, abortion, anti-abortion rights groups. >> yes. >> are casting this vacancy in the same sort of -- with the same scope. >> yes. >> as advocates on the left. >> and that's exactly right, which is why i think both sides are playing those cards with respect. and not trying to diminish the importance, but that political card with respect to their respective bases. a lot more than they probably should should. because i don't think, i really think you're going get a gorsuch nominee here, and i think the chief justice is going to play that moderating role. the game changes on the next appointment, not one. >> the one thing we should recognize is outlawing abortion is not politically sustainable in the country. >> that's right. >> it is possible that you could get a court decision against it.

that would spur a tremendous political backlash. obviously you've got blue states that would make their own rules. but it is not -- this is -- another example of how the republican base is out of step with 21st century america. you can not sustain the position that they seek. >> president trump was asked about roe versus wade in an interview with fox news that aired this morning. take a look. >> are you going to ask your nominees beforehand how they might vote on roe versus wade? >> well, that's a big one, and probably not. they're all saying don't do that. you don't do that. you shouldn't do that. but i'm putting conservative people on, and i'm very proud of neil gorsuch. he has been outstanding. his opinions are, you know, so well written, so brilliant. and i'm going to try and do something like that, but i don't think i'm going to be so specific. >> and here are some of the things that then candidate trump had to say about abortion rights during the 2016 campaign.

>> do you want two see the court overturn roe versus wade? >> well, if we put another two or perhaps justices on, that's really what's going to be -- that will happen. and that will happen automatically in my opinion, because i am putting pro-life justices on the court. >> which what should the law be on abortion? >> i have been pro-life. >> i know your principle. that's a good value. but what should be the law? >> they've set the law, and frankly, the judges -- i mean you're, going to have a very big election coming up for that reason, because you have judges where it's a real tipping point. >> do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is there has to be some form of punishment? >> for woman? >> yeah, there has to be some form. >> stephanie schriock? >> i think he made it very clear as a candidate that he wants to criminalize abortion and punish women. and he's obviously going to be looking at justice nominees that fit that mind-set. and he doesn't have to ask because he has been given lists that have already been vetted

who are going to do exactly that. and that's the danger here. >> the campaign at the time did say he was talking about doctors. but to clarify that. alexi mccammond, from your kind of reporting on we've been talking a lot about the last week about young women kind of the new energetic face of the democratic party. do you see this, this focus on roe versus wade as an animating issue for them, or is this something they haven't fought be touched? >> the one thing i fought fascinating is democratic candidates have not been talking about abortion rights. they haven't been talking about reproductive rights. we hear about health care in the economy. abortion rights and reproductive rights fall under both theds categories. it's the year of the woman. it is the year of me too when women have this renewed sense of autonomy over their own bodies after they felt they lost it in the past. thing is absolutely something that will animate the democratic base, at least to the extent they start care mortgage about

senate races. >> democrats need something to animate young voters. >> that's for sure. just ahead, my sit-down with mitt romney as he tries to thread the needle, support his party while standing up to the president. plus we talk to two democratic candidates in the field right now about the national party's message and direction as they prepare to confront the trump base in just a few months. ben jealous and jason kander join me live, up next. than our name suggests. we're an organic tea company. a premium juice company. a coconut water company. we've got drinks for long days. for birthdays. for turning over new leaves. and we make them for every moment in every corner of the country. we are the coca-cola company, and we're proud to offer so much more.

[ drum roll ] ...emily lapier from ames, iowa. this is emily's third nomination and first win. um...so, just...wow! um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. and of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts -- no, i have to say it -- for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. safe driving!

as president trump

consolidates power in his own party, democrats are watching their base shift to the left in an escalating grassroots rebellion. senate minority whip dick durbin says he can't recall a similar movement since he was elected to congress in 1982. then came the shocking win of alexandria ocasio cortez in new york, the 28-year-old self-described democrat socialist who ousted joe crowley. at the same time the party voted this week to scale back the role of super delegates, which was an issue that came up once or twice they heard about once or twice during the 2016 primary, which need to do with the extraordinary number of super delegates. super delegates. super delegates. super delegates. super delegates. >> super delegates. >> all of that, plus the added uncertainty surrounding the supreme court has left some with a feeling of deep disquiet. where do they go from here, and what is the right message from

democrats running from maryland to missouri as the mid terms approach? i want to welcome to talk about all this ben jealous, democratic nominee for governor of maryland and former president of the naacp. and jason kander, former missouri secretary of state and candidate for mayor of kansas city. gentlemen, thank you both for being here, and i really appreciate your willingness to participate in this sort of unusual conversation, because i do feel like we have some cross-representation with the two of you as to what this party is facing. you both running for executive office, not for the legislature. but i want to put one question that has been in the national conversation to both of you to kind of try to get a sense of how your answers may be different, and that is this question of whether or not we should abolish i.c.e. mr. kander, i'll start with you. do you think we should abolish i.c.e.? >> you know, look, i'm pretty focused on issues here in kansas city specifically, but i'll what i'll tell you is my personal perspective on this is that it has certainly advanced to place where it was not supposed to be

when it was created. at a very minimum, i agree with the people who have said this cannot be president trump's personal law enforcement personal army. that's not what this is supposed to be. and what it ends up creating is a situation where it's not able to accomplish any of the goals that it was put forth for in the very first place. >> do you think i.c.e. is a force for good in kansas city, the city you want to governor? >> well, look, what i think is make sure here in kansas city we continue the progress we made and it touches every single part of the city. inherent in your question is whether or not that means we have to protect everybody here in our city, and absolutely we do. >> ben jealous, i'd like to hear your take on this. do you believe that we should abolish i.c.e. in this country? >> no. what i do think is we need to get rid of trump. well need to get back to a real conversation that reflects the values of our country for how we welcome people who are coming to our shores, who are coming to our country.

my own family descends from folks who came here on my father's side all the way through ellis island, starting out in salem in 1624. and what we know is each wave of immigrants has made us stronger. this president has been fixated in turning i.c.e. into a railroad abusive force, pushing it way beyond what its actual mission is, at the same time building a wall and actually tearing children from the arms of their parents and putting them in cages. and so i get why folks are calling for i.c.e. to be abolished. i mean, i understand their emotion, but we do need an immigration service, absolutely. we just need one that actually serves the people of this country that reflects our values and not those of donald trump. >> mr. jealous, what do you think about -- what did you read into the win of alexandria ocasio-cortez earlier this week when she took down a long-time leader of the party, nancy pelosi?

you have been somebody who has been in the most entrenched of democratic circles in your time in politics. does the party need new leadership? >> she didn't take down nancy pelosi. she took down crowley in new york. >> sure, right. but just as a major rebuke to nancy pelosi. >> i don't know a whole lot about south bronx politics. what i do know is she has a lot of energy and she speaks to the concerns of people in this time. we as a party have to run towards the people. we've got put real solutions on the table. here in my state we're focused on making sure that no student comes out of college in debt. we've got to get back to our universities being as affordable as they were for the boomers. we're focused on ensuring we fully fund our schools. we're ensuring finally that everybody has health care. and so those sorts of basic

issues are deeply felt. frankly, voters of all kinds. have i folks who voted for donald trump who are coming back to the democratic party to support me because they're small business people whose small businesses have been choked under this governor because health care costs keep surging, and he has no plan to deal with it. i put a plan on the table for state-based medicare for all. they've researched it and they believe this is the only real shot we have to take on the pharmaceutical company, to cut the cost of health care to finally get our health care costs under control. >> jason kander, can i ask you, from your perch and your view in missouri, what would you say to national democrats about what is the best way? how can they best help you, a democratic running for a municipal office that democrats have sort of neglected over the past ten years or so, how can they help you and other democrats in a similar position? and how could they hurt you? >> well, i actually think here

in kansas city, this is a nonpartisan municipal race. it's certainly no secret that i'm a democrat. but i think really, what we have to focus on actually is making sure that we are, you know, we have passion when we campaign, and that means just being authentic, being real, telling people what you stand for. it doesn't matter what office you're running for that regard. it's what i've always done. when i ran for the state legislature, my first race in kansas city, i knocked on 20,000 doors myself, and people knew i was talking to them from my heart. same thing any campaign i've ever been involved with and that will the same thing here as i'm running for mayor of kansas city. what i tell my fellow democrats all the time is you got to tell people why you believe what you believe and you got to make sure that they know that you believe it because you care about them. and that's just what you got to do across the board, no matter. what that's what democrats need to do and that's what i'm going to do in my race here in kansas city. that's what i've always done. >> michael steele, as you're

listening toe these two gentlemen, what do you think is the -- it is possible for democrats kind of thread the needle and win in places like maryland, like missouri, like the bronx on one snej or does that message that one in the bronx risk seats across the rest of the country? >> i think to both these candidates' point that they're going run the race that's in their backyard. they can't run a national race in kansas city. ben can't run a race in maryland. because the local constituency wants to know what are you going to do for me now. >> yeah, but the national party could hurt them, and the media is incredibly and more and more. voters are getting national information. >> voters are getting national information, but at the end of the day, it's always local. look at what happened in virginia where the democrats upset a long-term incumbent republican. how did she do it as a transgendered candidate running in virginia? she won by saying i'm going to fix the roads.

it wasn't about lgbtq issues broadly speaking. it wasn't about health care on the national scale. it was about fixing the damn roads. so at the end of the day, it becomes a very local issue for each of these candidates in kansas city they want to know okay, what are you going to do to make this a great city that we think it is. and in maryland it's going to be the same question. >> stephanie schriock, what do you think? >> i think you're exactly right. and that's exactly what we're seeing. on emily's list we have truly a historic number of women running for office across this country. they are doing very well in their primaries thus far and are positioned to do well in the general election. why? because they are just rolling up their sleeves. they're getting on the ground. they're talking to voters. they're listening on what folks need, whether it's health care. danica roem talking about traffic. i was just in southern florida, and of course they're talking about gun violence protection that we're seeing in so many parts of the country. it's really understanding what

the voters are looking for in their areas, and then being authentic and listening. and that's why thiam these home with are fresh face faissts, a lot of them have never ron for anything before, and they are bringing these new perspectives and passion about change. and that's where i think we've got a great opportunity as democrats. so many times we keep talking about the leader of the party. the truth is the leaders, the leaders with an s of the party are coming up fast, and they are on the ground right now winning elections, and they're going to change this entire country. >> very quickly, mr. jealous and mr. kander, to you, i'm curious. let's start with you, mr. jealous. president trump, you said that we need to get rid of him. what do you say to voters who support him in your state? >> i have folks who voted for him who are now supporting me. and they support me because they want to get health care costs under control. they support me because they know that i actually spend my days in the half decade since i

left the association, i've been investing in small businesses, including several here in the state and i know how to grow our economy. they support me because they want to make sure that their kids go to schools that are finally fully funded, that we keep the broken promise down here on the casino money which we were promised that the tax revenues from that would increase funding. and we actually keep that promise. these are real kitchen table issues. i think you'll find i just won 22 out of 24 counties in an eight-way race. i think you'll find that we will do very well this fall. >> very quickly, jason kander, also on the president, do you agree with mr. jealous? do you want to get rid of president trump? >> well, i didn't vote for him. so i don't think that's a big surprise. >> no. >> look, i'm running for mayor of kansas city because i want to make sure that everybody in my town, my family came to in the 1880s that i love has the opportunity to find success for their family and move across town without having to leave.

>> would you like to see democrats in washington impeach the president? >> i'd like to see us focus right now on winning in 2018. we've got claire mccaskill running here in missouri. it's incredibly panther important to kansas city that she is rec rest elected because she does right by our town. that's where my focus is going to be. we've got an opportunity to defeat right to work on the ballot here in august. so before we get to this campaign that's june of 2019 for me, april and june, i'm going to make sure we're doing the best things for kansas city in the 2018 elections as well. >> i appreciate your redirectional skills, sir, and also your time very much. ben jealous, jason kander, thanks very much. alexi mccammond to you thank you as well. when we continue, i travel to utah to talk with mitt romney. >> one-on-one conversation with him is up next. sometimes, bipolar i disorder

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mitt romney's political comeback is in full swing. the 2012 republican presidential nominee won a landslide victory in utah's gop senate primary on tuesday. i caught up with romney in the wake of his win this week, and i started out by asking him why at a time when so many republicans seem to be leaving washington, he wants to go. >> well, i think these are times

that call for people of sober judgment. i hope i fit that qualification, and i think it's a critical time. i think we're going into a turns internationally of significance, and i think domestically, our economy is going to get turned on its head by virtual of artificial intelligence and automation. and i think you need to have people in washington who understand how the economy works, and i think i'm one of those. >> you mentioned a foreign policy in the world. in 2012, you called russia our greatest geopolitical foe. >> this is to russia. this is without question or number one geopolitical foe. >> do you still think that's the case, do and you feel a little vindicated? >> well, there is no question they've acted like a geopolitical foe. they've backed some of the world's worst actors. they've invaded neighboring nations, and of course they've interfered with democracies and electoral processes not only in the u.s., but around the world. but they're not alone there are other geopolitical adversaries. that doesn't mean we're going to be in a conflict with them or other major nations like china, but china is also becoming a bit

of a geopolitical competitor, if you will, if that's a better word if that they're pushing against our interests in various parts of the world, and you have these authoritarian regimes who want to denigrate democracy and the nature of our republic and substitute a form of authoritarianism. >> do you have any advice for president trump when he meets with vladimir putin? his national security adviser is in russia right now planning that meeting? >> i don't know that that he should be meeting with vladimir putin. i think we as a nation and our leaders have to recognize that their interest is to weaken democracies like our own. and as if you will, the leader of the free world that. >> want to see us in particular be weakened. so pushing back against them and holding a strong hand always makes sense. >> do you think putin is an enemy of the united states? >> well, i think he sees us as a competitor and an adversary, if you will in a geopolitical sense. we're not going to go to war with russia, hopefully never. and likewise with other major

nations. but his interests are very different than our interests. and his interest is to greater and greater dominant role to oppress people and nations around his nation, former soviet states, and that is not something which is acceptable to people who value freedom. >> do you think the russia investigation is a hoax? >> no. i think it's totally appropriate evaluation by our government. russia's clearly trying to become involved in the electoral process here and distort that process. well need to find out how and where, punish the people who have potentially been involved in that kind of disruption, and i'd like to see the mueller investigation completed, take it to its conclusion. i doubt you're going to see something which implicates the president. i think that's very unlikely based on kind of the sounds that have been heard so far. but i do think we need to understand where russia has been trying to play and to make sure they can't do so in the future. >> on the domestic are front, the house is set to vote this

week on immigration bill. congress has tried over and over and over again to try to pass immigration legislation. it's been decades. do you think this has become the third rail for republicans, immigration? >> well, i think it's become a great source of economic success for the democrats. they talk about bringing in place a new immigration policy -- >> success for the democrats? >> political success for the democrats. i think immigration they use to stimulate their base, to get people to turn out and to support them at the ballot box. but then they don't do anything about it. i mean, there was a time, use may recall when president obama had a super majority both the house and the senate. he could have passed immigration reform like he said he was going to in his first year he promised, but he didn't. >> it was true of george w. bush too. he wanted to do comprehensive immigration reform. >> he put his bill forward. he worked on his bill, put it forward, fought 40, got turned down. you can respect for someone who fights for something even it gets turned down. president obama had both chamber, super majority, didn't

do anything. now i happen to believe that there is good will in both parties and that if we have some real leadership, and hopefully that comes from the white house to say, hey, look, let's get this part of it done, that we're going to be able to see something happen. if not, i'm going to keep fighting for it as one of those that really cares about this issue. it's just nuts for what even all these years. >> you support for dreamers? >> i believe dreamers ought to be able to get in line like everybody else, no special pathway. and i agree with what the president said earlier in the year, which is the dreamers ought to be given legal status until they work out what they want to do with regards to citizenship. >> you mention good will. you say there is goodwill in both parties. the country has been embroiled in this debate over civility and whether or not it's even possible in the climate that we're living in currently. do you think civility is dead? >> i don't think it's dead. i think it's just not being practiced in many corners of washington, d.c. i mean, you see in most state houses people get along.

republicans and democrats, whether it's a republican governor or a democrat governor, people tend to get along. but in washington it's become extraordinarily divisive, and particularly what's covered in the news. obviously, someone lights their hair on fire, that's what makes the news. but there are a -- thinking week it was children being separated from the border. >> of course, that's something that's not just relating to civility. that's just humanity. >> but it's what sparked many of the altercations, sarah sanders being kicked out of a restaurant, it, is it i think over our history when people felt there has been a departure from what they consider to be moral conduct, they're going to stand up and make their position very, very clear. >> so you think that's okay? >> well, i think it's fine to express your viewpoint and heim i'm not going to tell people what to do and not do, but i would far prefer people going to public places, if you will, parks across interest the white house or the mall across from the nation's capitol and gathering together and protesting in that way. the message is heard loud and

clear. but harassing people, i don't think that's very effective, and frankly as someone who hopes to go to washington, i hope it doesn't catch on. >> final question, i know we have to wrap it up. you said recently that you voted for your wife. >> ann romney. >> highly qualified, capable person. >> for president in 2016. will you vote for president trump in 2020? you said you think it's he is going to get reelected. >> it's too early to say. yeah, i did say i think he'll get re-elected. that's not an endorsement. i also think gavin newsom will get re-elected in california. it's not something i want to see. i think it will happen. >> do you want to run against him? >> it's not a question of want. there will be female who decide i presume to get in a republican primary. i think republican support, what is it now, 90% approval suggests he will be able to become the nominee relatively easily. and i think the democrats are going to go further left. they're likely to nominate someone further from the mainstream of american thought and in a setting like that i

think the president gets re-elected. >> but you're not willing to say you'll vote for him? >> i'm not willing to say who i'll support at this stage. that's a little early for that, but the time will come. >> michael steele, you almost assume mitt romney is going to say that, but it's kind of remarkable that a nominee for senate would say two years out from a presidential i'm not going to support my party's presidential nominee. >> a little bit. just a little bit. i thought that was a very interesting interview for two words, and he said it at the beginning. sober judgment. and i think that's what you're going to see when he comes to washington. he's going to be the new anchor for a lot of republicans who feel frustrated by the senate and house leadership who have not been that voice, just sort of put the guard recalails. in i think he can and he actually wants, to but if he does, i think it will make those next two years very interesting with respect to that question, that last question you asked. >> we'll see if he is willing to take the heat day in and day out. >> that's right.

>> he hasn't changed. >> i enjoyed campaign, i enjoyed seeing him. but no comment on that. coming up, candidates' multibillion tariffs have kicked in. we'll hear from trump supporters who are getting hit the hardest. you're watching "kasie dc." feet. ...grew up the youngest of three kids... ...raised a good sport... ...and became a second-generation firefighter. but i couldn't bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. so i talked to my doctor, and he prescribed lyrica. nerve damage from diabetes cause diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is fda approved to treat this pain from moderate to even severe diabetic nerve pain. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions, suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worse depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. common side effects: dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs, and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery

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you'll know what you're invested in and how it's performing. so you can spend more time floating about on your inflatable swan. [ding] tariff can be a trade tool, but in my opinion, there are trade tool of last resort. >> they know that he means business. so i think this will be a time of change. >> you have confidence in the president, despite the tariffs? >> have i confidence that these other countries are going to want to come back to the table and renegotiate these. >> do you want him to end those tariffs on steel and aluminum? >> i want him to fix it where it's better, you know. i understand why he is doing it, but he's just going to have to stop and think when he is making america better, he is kind of hurting some of it too. >> you still have faith in the president?

>> absolutely. >> why? >> i believe he knows what he's doing. i believe he can turn everything around for us. >> welcome back to "kasie dc" that was nbc's vaughn hillyard talking to trump supporters across the country who work in different industries that have been directly affected by tariff policy. today marks the first day the candidate's multibillion tariffs go into response in response to president trump's tariffs on canadian steel and aluminum. $12.6 billion including ketchup, whiskey, maple syrup, mattresses, toilet paper, lawnmowers and playing cards. geez. john harwood, it seems as though at least from a lot of the people vaughn hillyard talked to people are willing to believe this is the right course, even when they're being hit at home? >> some people will be willing to do that. but the proof of the policy is going to come in the effect on the economy. and pretty much all economists across the board, including in the white house think this is

know nothing economics. and we had a report today that the president has called for and talked about legislation to blow up the wto, the world trade organization. free trade in general, world trade organization have been things that have been benefitted the american economy, and the idea of pursuing a tariff policy not only against china, which has committed some significant infractions, they need to change some of the things that they've done, but against u.s. allies under the idea that oh, well, they're all the same and europe's just as bad as china. >> yeah. >> these are things that are not not borne out in reality. >> they are smaller, john. >> they are smaller, that's true. but this is not -- this is not an economic policy that's connected to economic reality. >> well, as interested as i am in continuing this conversation on economic policy, the rest of us here are sitting in the break talking about this breaking news from the world of pro basketball. lebron james taking his talents to tinseltown. that's a nice little read the

control room read out to me. lebron has agreed to a four-you'll deal with the los angeles lakers worth, get, this $154 million. that's according to his agency klutch sports. they announced the news on twitter. the three-time nba champion and four-time league mvp has appeared in eight straight mvp finals. he makes the lakers an instant contender for the next season's nba crown. anyone who wants it? >> we're all -- >> i'm very happy. >> watch the lakers again. >> very happy for my man brendan ingram, a duke guy like me who will now get to play alongside lebron. so will lonzo ball. i think it's interesting he chose to leave the eastern conference which has been easier to win for a long time and go into the same conference with the houston rockets and the san antonio spurs and the golden state warriors. that's a bold move. >> that's how you prove your greatness. >> he is likely going to be wearing michael jordan's number

and kobe bryant's jersey. >> yeah. >> it's weird. >> it's interesting. >> lebron can wear whatever number he wants. >> that's true. >> look at every team he touches. shoots off. i think this is an extraordinary get for the lakers. it's going to be wild. >> this is the second time he left the cavs. >> right? my heartbreaks a little bit for cleveland. >> he brought them a championship, okay. he took them to the finals three times. the rest of the time around him wasn't that good. he is the best player on the planet, and he is the most -- all of us have watched athletic phenomes come and go. this is the most fully realized talent i've ever seen in any sport. everything that he was said to be when he was 15 years old, he's become that and more. it's amazing. >> he is like the sabrina williams of basketball. i had to get a women's shout out there. sorry. >> did you say sabrina? >> serena.

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before we go, we want to talk about what all our pan panelists are watching in the week ahead. >> this is when the senators and representatives are headed home for the week, and i'd imagine we're going to see a lot of activity on the ground. you saw nearly 700 marches and protests yesterday across the country. i think those folks are just going to keep ongoing to the office -- the members' offices and saying, we need change. >> you know, i was taken aback, trying to find this statement they just put out, actually, the department of homeland security responded to the protests. the dhs press secretary says only congress ensures our border is secured and families are protected, and to the protesters, says, we thank them for their interest. let's remind everybody, there's still, we think, 2,000 kids separated from families. john harwood, what are you watching? >> i'm hoping the country, which

has been stressed, has a nice chill 242nd birthday, and i'm especially hoping that for the capital gazette in annapolis, nice, slow news week. i have a high school classmate, pat ferguson, a reporter at the capital gazette, doing heroic work to get that paper out after that tragedy. everyone needs the slow time. >> for sure. subscribe to the local paper, everyone. they do honest work. >> they do, they do. i'm going to be looking at how the tracks are going to be laid for this announcement next week by the president for his supreme court justice. there's a lot of internal pressure growing from various communities of interest, for women, there's several arguing for him to put a black woman in play, and so we'll see how the politics of that selection plays out. >> a very good point. i, for my closing thought, give this shoutout to bridget and her

dog, scout, who are watching us this evening. hi, scout, bridget, love him, so cute. that's all for us tonight. we're back here tomorrow night at 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern, and "dateline, in-depth report on the border crisis," and then at 10:00, a special report, how to fix an election, and up next, premier of the "story of cool," for now, good night from washington. this is an m srsnbc special series. ♪ cool. elusive. essential. iconic. >> cool is -- >> knowledgeable. authoritati authoritative, confidence. >> a confidence a person has in himself. original. >> just