mike allen, stand by. we'll see you in just a second on "morning joe." and also reading axios am in just a little bit. sign up by going to signkeep up.axios.com. "morning joe" starts right now. well, goodern morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 5th. did you have a nice fourth of july? >> i did. >> we have cady kay and david ignatius and co-founder of axios mike allen. >> we have to start, though. i understand fourth of july for some people, very long weekend. but cady, football is back,

football is coming home. >> kind of nerve racking, right am. >> you know when you're watching a horror movie and you have to keep leaving the room because you can't take the tension? >> that was you. >> that was me. >> i have video. >> horrible, horrible videotape of me screaming at the tv. >> so loud. >> i rarely do that. maybe the last few minutes. like an alabama football game or something like that when it's the national championship, but jack and i were at the screen. but you knew, for people who don't know, england, it's what england does. they lose in penalty kicks. >> it's what we do. >> when i knew it was going to pebb penalty kicks, i knew it was over. i figured this out, a reason why the curse was finally broken with this penalty kick here. >> oh, lord. >> wait a second. no, of course, that's liverpool's own jordan henderson.

i'm not sure why you guys started with that. we're building the drama. >> we're getting up -- >> exactly. >> colombia answers with their own miss and, there we go. >> there you go. that's the one. left hand. >> dire. to the left. of course, the only reason this happened -- >> it's still making me stress. >> i'm sweating roight now. roger bennett became a u.s. citizen like right before this and the albatro-- >> it was one of those amazing games. i was sitting and watching with a bunch of brits and all assumed that we were going to lose. that's what british fans think

we're quogoing to cause. if i have a heart attack, tell them it's being an england supporter. >> i had to get small children away from joe. just a frightening time watching him watch. >> the 91st minute -- >> i'll be texting you saturday morning, joe. >> david ignatius, i hope you had a really exciting fourth of july hunched over riding as you said -- >> with your family dotingly watching. >> also playing a lot of tennis. so, i don't want to just do work and i got to watch our poor baseball team just sink deeper and deeper towards the bottom. this was supposed to be the great team, the washington nats this year, they sure are the opposite. >> david ignatius talking about the boston red sox coming to town and sweeping washington in three. i have to say, when i saw that on the schedule a couple weeks

ago, i was concerned. nothing to be concerned about. they really are. this is a great team that right now is just sinking fast. >> on paper, people, including "sports illustrated" picked the nats to be in a world series. they have been in a slide that is catastrophic. our great baseball columnist just get to the playoff level. they have to play .600 baseball the rest of the season. that doesn't happen very often. even for the red sox and yankees. >> especially, their best players just not producing right now. we shall see. as the kids say, a reason they play 162 games. why don't we, now that the sport round up is up, finished. a couple incredible games tomorrow. world cup games tomorrow. uruguay and france. i'm fine as long as it's not england losing in penalty kicks. let's get to the news. president trump is expected to

announce his supreme court nominee on monday. and has so far spoken with seven potential candidates. according to the associated press, vice president mike pence has also met with some of those contenders. a person familiar with the search process tells the ap the meetings took place in recent days, but that person will not say what candidates pence met with. two appeals court judges are seen as leading candidates. bret kavanaugh and amy coney barrett a former justice to scalia. counter the president's eventual nominee using similar tactics. political strategists are raising millions of dollars to target lisa murkowski and susan collins and both buck their own party's attempts to appeal.

rand paul has told colleagues he may not vote for kavanagh if he's nominated. a person particular with paul's conversations said kavanagh's role during the bush administration on cases involving executive privilege and the disclosure of documents to congress. >> rand paul always says that and then he votes for what donald trump wants him to vote for him. just full stop, rand paul will vote for trump's nominee, whoever it is. >> meanwhile, senator susan collins who has said she won't support any supreme court pick who demonstrates hostility towards roe v. wade said she talked to white house council about some of the potential nominees. >> i've done a lot of work on the list and i have told the white house counsel individuals that to me appear to meet the

criteria of accepting that roe v. wade has settled law and to have extraordinarily good background. >> mike allen, nobody on those, nobody that donald trump selects is going to say that roe v. wade settled. >> that's why we had these two favorites that we just saw there. the inside line is that amy barrett will be better for the base, but a tougher confirmation fight. but that's the calculus aides are making. but people are involved and for the president it is going to be all about the personal connection. who he feels comfortable with in the moment. >> are you saying he's going to pick the man? >> oh, no, i totally don't think that. >> you disagree? >> i don't know. >> you look -- only reason i say that is katty kay, if you look

and see through the first year, 90% of donald trump selections for u.s. attorneys and judges were white men. >> the issue here is that amy c represents the base and brett kavanaugh is much more harvard, yale. that is not the type of person, nominated by george bush. that's not necessarily the type of person in the past that donald trump had an instant rapport with. if this comes down to how he feels about the person in the room, it wouldn't totally be, you're right, he has a thing about appointing white guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if he goes with someone who feels more in line with the base on this one. >> mike allen, what about the timing of the pick? it seems to keep getting pushed up.

thursday, friday. everybody said he might be selecting and coming to a conclusion today, but i've heard your reporting suggesting that he may wait or his aides want him to wait until his aides are back in town. >> aides wouldn't be surprised if he jumps the gun on his own announcement if he does it today or tomorrow. as they said, when the president has made his pick and he's ready to go, he wants to go. trying to convince him. so much more logic and you have senators back in town and you can have senators there for the rollout and you'll get more attention. in the end, they hope that their clinching argument is the same argument that you will remember they used to keep him from moving the singapore summit up one day and that is you'll get more coverage if you do it that way, sir. an argument that frequently works with him but they told me they can never be sure.

a man and a woman in the uk have been critically poisoned using the same military nerve agent that poisoned a former russian spy and his daughter. the couple were found unconscious in their home on saturday in the town of amesbury where the march poisons of s sergei skripal and his daughter occurred. several countries blame russia. moscow has denied any involvement in this case. joining us now live from salsbury, england, kelly copia. what is the latest? >> at this point, they're in an emergency meeting and two people, british citizens are in critical condition. police confirm they have been exposed to that deadly nerve

agent, the same nerve agent that poisoned the former russian spy sergei sripal and his daughter back in march. the woman became sick first, collapsing of seizures around 10:30 and she was taken to the hospital and several hours later her partner also became ill. a friend said he was in a zombie-like state, sweating profuse lly and he was brought and the test confirmed they were exposed to that poison. so the big questions are how and when and where. police have cordoned off five different locations and a church, a park, a couple residences and a trash can, but they're really scratching their heads with this one. no obvious reason why these two people would specifically be

targeted, although they're saying they're not ruling that out. more likely an accidental poisoning, mika, which would mean there is potentially novichok in this city. >> katty kay, first of all, any reason -- she said there was no concern that there was a connection or a reason why this second group of people, two people were poisoned. but talk to us about the salsbury incident and the concern about russia there. >> the salsbury incident was earlier this year. someone who had been living in the uk and his daughter were visiting him and the two went for a walk in the park and were poisoned and spent weeks in hospital and now at a hospital but, of course, being guarded full time. the russians said this was the

brits who poisoned them. and the brits pointed to novichok, they pinpointed it to one factory outside of moscow where this nerve agent could have been made. a lot of questions at the time about whether salsbury is now safe for other people. it was back in march that the original poisoning took place. it has been weeks without any incident and took a big effort to decontaminate the city and now we get these two people with no relationship to russia in their background, no relationship to intelligence services, happened to have been shopping in salsbury the day before, fell sick the next day and, of course, the question seems to be, did they ined inadvertently come across this terrible nerve agent and have

terrible consequences? >> the earlier attack points directly to russia and putin's government, no doubt about that. is this just collateral damage from the earlier russia attack? second thing is, can you explain just how extraordinary it is that putin's government would attack, attack former russian citizens on british soil? >> joe, first, we don't know yet how this deadly agent came to be in a place where it was exposed to the two additional british subjects. that's going to be the subject of the investigation. but if it seems possible, this was a case of sloppy procedures by people who set out to assassinate a former russian agent who flipped and became an

agent for british intelligence, mr. skripal, that will infuriate the british. it will reanimate what was really a very bitter european protest to its allies, starting with the united states. you must help us deal with this lawless activity and it's really interesting and important that it comes before president trump is scheduled to meet july 16 with russian president vladimir putin. if the british, traditionally, are saying you must join us in protesting this. that will put an additional issue on trump's plate. it's interesting to note that the russians were seen as violating a cardinal rule of intelligence in this operation. to go into another country and use these deadly agents. i mean, these are the scariest things in anybody's arsenal to

eliminate somebody in retaliation and it's a big deal and it's going to come land on the white house's agenda before they head off to the helsinki summit. >> it's also a case where art imitates life and actually predicts life, much like many of your novels. >> it's hard to be a spy novelist in a world where real life is so crazy. you can't do it. >> so many yof your novels give us insight and expand on what really happens. i think back in this case to that moment in homeland this past season even before this attack took place where one of putin's young agents that was launching attacks on u.s. soil and the old kgb said, you just

don't do this. there are rules and we play by those rules and you're breaking those rules. that certainly is the attitude, not only of the british, but also of straight thinking u.s. intel operatives and say, look at putin's russia attacking british citizens on british soil and now, like you said, because of the sloppiness of it, two other british citizens possibly. >> joe, let it be noted another of those rules is be careful about mounting broad, covert actions against your adversaries political system. yes, we challenged communism in the soviet union. yes, we've beened av ed a vedbe

over the line. this is not standard behavior. the russians cross adeline, mueller is trying to get to the bottom of it. but there, as in other instances, putin has pushed the envelope and done things that other russian leaders have not. >> all right. congressman jim jordan has denied claims that he ignored decades' old allegations of sexual abuse made by members of the ohio state university wrestling team against their team doctor. jordan told politico on tuesday, it's not true. i was never told of any kind of abuse. if i did, i would have done something about it. if there were people who were abused, that's terrible. we want justice to happen. three former wrestles told nbc news that it was common knowledge that the team's doctor regularly showered with students

and touched them during appointments. one wrestler said he talked to jordan directly about the abuse. ohio state university announced in april it was investigating the claims. the republican house freedom caucus was the assistant wrestling coach at the university from 1986 to 1994. jordan has repeatedly said he knew nothing about the allegations until the former students went public this year. >> mike allen, you look at all the comments from former wrestlers, former, close friends and associates of jim jordan. they said that his locker was right next to the doctor's. he had said if the doctor had tried anything on him he would take care of him. it seems that everybody that was around jim jordan at the time knew, he had to know all of this was going on.

in fact, he said some things suggesting he did know it was going on. >> you talk about being on the wrong side of history. again and again, these incidents that were put aside are now coming back. we've seen people losing jobs that they have been offered because of their past involvement with some of these scandals. and what we see is that so many young athletes over the years clearly were victimized in this way and only now are some of them getting some kind of justice or vindication. >> mike, before you go, tell us about axios' report this morning on trump's blind spot. >> just one? >> i mean, narrow it. we'll narrow it down to the one you're reporting on. >> we talked to bush 43 alumni when house democrats won their election and they're saying that this white house has no idea

what is about to come if democrats get the house. you suddenly have democrats with subpoena power who can call you up to testify constantly and get in your e-mail and get in your budgets and get in to your schedules and the bush white house saw this coming, of course, 2006 was a lot of unh unhappiness about the iraq war. they knew the democrats would take the house and they formed what they called and and what was coming with democrats. joe and mika, i'm glad you're sitting down. you're going to be shocked by this. the trump white house doesn't have an osg, the trump white house is not preparing for what could come with house democrats. what one aide said to me, we can't even prepare for what is right in front of us, yet alone

prepare for something that might come in six months. >> you know, everybody that continues to talk to him says the same thing. they are just shocked by how isolated he is and how anybody that, well, anybody who delivers bad news is immediately pushed out. but nobody is able to deliver bad news, he lives in his own bubble. he lives in his own world and you do not speak truth to power with this president because he'll fire you or he'll push you aside, like his chief of staff. >> exactly. where i think there's some reporting that he thinks the president could pea hbe his ownf of staff. >> thank you, mike. still ahead on "morning joe," the "new york times" calls it a series of presidential tweets all apparently inspired by fox news were either

exaggerated, unsubstantiated or just plain false. it's hard to believe the misinformation campaign is actually getting worse. live to thailand where officials are trying to come up with a plan to rescue a boys' soccer team from a flooded cave. they're now face agnew threat. we'll have the latest on that. first, here's bill karins. >> we got soaked and then the fireworks in boston, new york, d.c. here we are today. this is the last day of our heat wave, which has now lasted about a week. 56 million people under heat advisories including memphis and cincinnati. so, today, a little bit cooler in new york. 87 degrees and a couple clouds there. but still very humid. everywhere from the rockies and the east coast. memphis and st. louis, you'll feel like 100 to 110 today. we'll cool you off in chicago with afternoon thunderstorms and

that could also mean airport delays. let's take you through our friday forecast. this is the big change. rain will sweep through and a period of heavy rain and thunderstorms from boston and new york and right down through d.c. most likely from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. it will probably rain an hour or two when they go through during that window. push down to the afternoon and evening hours. by the time we get to saturday, here is the reward. cooler canadian beautiful summer weather. chicago at 80 on saturday. d.c. at 80 degrees and new york city 78 and saw a fantastic weekend for the northern half of the country and still deal with the showers and thunderstorms down to the south. and then finally on sunday looking at nice weather. mid-atlantic looks perfect and down along the gulf coast you don't get the cool, canadian air. remain soggy with showers and storms from houston right along the gulf coast. all in all, i think we're ready for a break for the people

dealing with a heat wave. washington, d.c., you're one of those spots. today a hot, humid day. but thunderstorms cool you off tomorrow for what should be one of the best summer weekends you've seen yet. you're watching "morning joe" we'll be right back. i have to tell you something incredible. capital one has partnered with hotels.com to give venture cardholders 10 miles on every dollar they spend at thousands of hotels. all you have to do is pay with this... at hotels.com/venture. 10 miles per dollar? that is incredible. brrrrr. i have the chills. because you're so excited? because ice is cold. and because of all those miles. obviously. what's in your wallet? i'm not sure. what's in your wallet?

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says he is getting this cold shoulder and i'm not sure why he brought this up in the first place. he said he's taking an unprincipaled, unpopular stand on this issue and now is not getting invited, poor thing, to martha's vineyard. i'm not sure how this goes down in steel country. are they sitting there in lorraine, ohio, saying, oh, my god, we're so sorry that he has come into trouble because he opposed the mueller investigation? >> you know, it's very interesting, he claims, david ignatius it is a principaled stand and he has been donald trump's mouth piece in attacking robert mueller so much. this russian investigation that you're talking about where vladimir putin has crossed the line, all the intel chiefs have said that they are focused explicitly in undermining american democracy and he's upset because doing the bidding

of donald trump and by extension vladimir putin by attacking robert mueller iii, he's not allowed to come to the trendiest clam bakes without fielding a cold shoulder. >> but underneath there's something that is real and is happening across the country, which is that feelings on both sides of this are really getting intense. dershowitz's critics say you have enabled a president who is separating families and exceeding to the demands and the desires of russia, our principal adversary and of course we are going to shun you. we think those policies are wrong. dershowitz treats it as a stand on principal. it's hard to imagine the base getting too riled up about

dershowitz's bad treatment but we'll see. >> it's not like he has ever done it before. >> i was going to say, his defense is the worst defense in the world, which is, well, i also defended bill clinton after the monica lewinsky scandal. so, i also helped that administration pile on a young 22, 23-year-old woman. so, i've done this for both sides. basically saying i'm the court gesture. whenever somebody needs me to jump around and bounce around and distract from the facts, i'm here for him. it seems to be the absolute wrong defense. >> and, look, ever since the o.j. trial, alan dershowitz the master of making sure he gets headlines. he likes to be in the news and he likes television cameras in front of him and he likes to be close to power and this is what he is doing this time around. he would say there are issues

with which i publicly disagree with this president, and it's ridiculous that i'm being shunned even though i'm a registered democrat because i think the mueller investigation should not go ahead. but i think, you know, there is something about alan dershowitz that has become a media personality. he likes that and put himself in that position. >> as my grandmother would say, alan when you lay down with dogs, you get up with flees. he can't try to undermine robert mueller iii's investigation of vladimir putin trying to destroy our democracy. trying to undermine our democracy. and then be shocked that he's not allowed to go to the finest spots in martha's vineyard. >> one point, joe, there are no fleas on martha's vineyard. >> he's brought them there and they do not like it.

we are going to be later, i'm sure, some time today reaching out and maybe have on our ground investigator reporter. >> all right. we're going to move on now to the -- >> do you see the spot that nbc has given him? >> he's got the best location with borders on the island. >> it's unbelievable. >> okay. we're going to move on now to the frantic effort to rescue that team of 12 young soccer players trapped in a cave in thailand. a threat of monsoon rains expected to hit the area at the end of the week is forcing rescue teams to come up with alternative plans to free the boys and their soccer coach. nbc joins us live from thailand. janice, the boys have been trapped for 12 days, what is the longest they can be there?

>> this is a crucial 24 hours, mika, where rescue officials need to decide how and when they'll bring these boys out. they were trapped there since they went exploring and it became flooded by rain. between where they are and where they need to get to at the entrance and other parts that need skilled diving and these boys don't know how to swim. the officials need to look at their primary concern, if they don't make a move soon, they could be stuck in there for months. >> the boys and their soccer coach appear in good spirits. new video shows them smiling and laughing with thai navy doctors and a doctor treats their cuts and one by one they send messages to their families. i'm in good health, he says. another flashes a victory sign. the boys are also at risk.

heavy rains could push water levels higher inside the cave. that threat is forcing thai officials to consider an evacuation soon. the province's governor said if there is a risk, we will not move them out. drills for the moment the boys are brought to the surface and they're getting a crash course in diving and wearing full face masks. none of them can even swim. we spoke to a diver advising the rescue team. >> you're not confident they can do it? >> i think they can. i think it's possible. also very dangerous choice to make and it takes a little bit. >> a safer option may be drilling a hole so the boys can avoid a risky swim and trek.

some passageway is too narrow for scuba gear. water has reduced current which could cut off access for divers. families are anxious to be reunited. this mother saying i'm dieing to see him. i miss my son. >> they're still pumping water out of the caves, but at this point, mika, everyone is looking at the sky and rain forecast to hit by the weekend. >> nbc janis, thank you, we'll be following that story. karen joins us next with what she says is the democrats' latest gift to republicans. what could it be? "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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you know, we were talking about this alan dershowitz story and you go back and if you want to get specific, you go back and look at the jailing of paul manafort after manafort was

caught and alan can dershowitz should know. of all people, he should know. this is what happens the majority of the time to poor people. to those that can't afford, you know, 1,000 dollar attorney. they told me over the weekend that that was one of the most outrageous thing. dershowitz be protecting and doing the bidding of a guy who is probably going to seem to be, if not directly, indirectly, a russian agent. paul manafort an enabler of designs in eastern europe. the jailing of manafort after all that he did was obnoxious to the constitution. he shouldn't be shocked why

people are -- >> if you look over the course of his career he will do whatever he needs to do. >> the are lines and he just crossed the line. >> that appears to be desperate and needy. a columnist for "washington post" karen. >> clam bakes at martha's vineyard and nantucket. >> latest gifts to republicans, what would that be? we have so many for them. >> this whole call to abolish i.c.e. which we're hearing from the lips from so many democrats on the left and increasingly from people who think they're running for president in 2020. it's wrong on substance because when you talk about abolishing a federal agency you have to be

clear on how you will replace it and, also, this is a gift to donald trump. because it really takes the debate back away from children getting separated from their parents to border security. that is a debate he wins. >> it is. >> there are, obviously, some parallels with what happened. in 1994 we talked about this in 1994, democrats at times tried to connect republican overreaches and in '96 and 2006 and talk about how in a strange way it might help those in the hard-core districts and end up hurting the chances in the very districts that they have to win to hold on the majority. >> the immigration issue right now is, again, it's people have been riveted by these pictures

of crying children at the border. but once you get this on to the issue of, you know, hard-working public servants who are really trying to keep people safe, that is when you start to bring the swing voters back to, again, the question of border security. and that's why, again, these democratic calls for abolish i.c.e., this is something we normally see out of the republicans playbook is this idea that abolishing a government agency is sort of short hand for government overreaches or for policies that you don't like. that really is where the democrats should keep this debate. >> katty, so many opportunities. we said it all along for democrats to pick up things that donald trump said. put it in the final 30 second ads and in this case it gives

republicans their own attack against democrats for 30-second ad. >> yeah, it seems self-defeat g self-defeating. you have to explain where the pressure is coming on the democratic base for this kind of call on candidates who are running. i am imagining they are responding to something because, as you've pointed out, just doesn't seem to win them anything and certainly as they move into the general election period and you're trying to win over independent voters. >> i think they see this as a short hand. i.c.e., as we know, was created in 2003 after 9/11 and to be aimed at a terrorist threat and we've seen not just under president trump but under president obama, as well, deportatio deportations. the numbers have increased. that is really a policy question that is driven from the

executive branch. from the president. and to blame an agency for carrying out its mission as it is being instructed to by the chief executive is really, i think, a losing political argument. >> it makes about as much sense as karen does and if donald trump had ordered tsa to pull out all hispanic people from lines at airports for democrats to respond to that order by saying abolish the tsa, yes, they are doing things, but you wouldn't want to abolish the tsa. >> this is not to say that i.c.e. just like every other government agency could use some fresh thinking and rethinking of its mission, but to take that directly to abolish i.c.e. and, again, without saying what you would put in its place is something that gives the republicans, i think, and donald

trump, in particular, a real weapon because it reframes this whole debate. >> all right. >> karen, thank you so much. good to have you on. still ahead, president trump is scheduled to meet with vladimir putin later this month and their summit might include a one on one without any aides present in the room. >> dershowitz might be there. >> like i said. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ♪

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the alarm about the state of their democracy as the ruling party is pushing to oust justices of the polish supreme court. defying the government purge the chief justice vowed to continue her constitutionally mandated term which runs through 2020. a large crowd of anti-government protesters cheered the justice on followed by more demonstrations pledging to defend their democracy and

constitution. the ruling law and justice party which forced justices to resign unless it receives permission from the president it is seeking to make the court more accountable to people by bringing it under their control. a lot happening in poland. some parallels. >> we talked about it over the fourth of july weekend. david, dr. brzensky dedicated his life to freeing people in eastern europe to live in more open democratic transparent societies, how distressed he would be that the same country who so bravely stood up in 1980 in solidarity and throughout the 1980s and pope john ii being a moral beacon against soviet

tyranny, to see this happen in poland would be so distressing to him and so distressing to so many world war warriors right now, of all places the month definitely resistance for democracy is the one that seems to be falling off a cliff right now. >> as mika knows, her dad took such pride and pleasure in the new democratic poland that emerged after the fall of the berlin wall, it made an enormous difference to him. it was the remarks that were made at his memorial service sent by the polish president. i think as distressed as he would be by the move by the current polish government against the courts, the move towards authoritarianism, the freedom they won, he would be

proud of the chief justice who is fighting back and proud of the poles in the streets protesting this. i thought that was in some ways the most interesting part about this story. we've known that this polish government has contempt for the rule of law, moving right. but to see people in the streets saying no, that's not the country we want. i think that's what -- that's the headline here. poles are in the street saying no we want our freedoms. >> he would be thrilled, mika. he really would be thrilled by poles who are -- who never have a problem speaking of their mind and certainly didn't even again soviet tyranny, standing up this way. just encroachment upon their basic freedoms. >> poles are engaged. steeped in their history. yes they speak their mind especially polish women.

and, you know, i applaud that. i think that -- i also noticed you can speak to canadians when you go to canada they know more about our politics than sometimes we feel we do when we talk to people. so i always think back to my father's heritage and how engaged the people of poland are in their history, and their future. >> look that. it's inspiring. we'll talk more to katty kay at the top of the hour not just what's happening in poland but all across of central and eastern europe. because this is something that the people of central and eastern europe who lived under the tyranny of soviet russia for so long, need to push back on and maybe just like they followed the example of poland after solidarity, maybe this is a sign of things to come in other central and eastern european companies. coming up the "the washington post" bob costa joins us with the latest reporting on the president's contenders for

the supreme court. and senator ben cardin weighs in on the report that trump wants to meet with vladimir putin with no aides in the room. we'll also talk to republican congress man tom cole as the u.s. prepares to fire the first shot in a trade war with china. "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪ you shouldn't be rushed into booking a hotel. with expedia's add-on advantage, booking a flight unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip.

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song -- >> what? it's nice. >> according to alan dershowitz, mccarthyism is creeping across cape cod, out to provincetown. alan dershowitz talking about the vineyard giving him a cold shoulder. >> he done want to be lectured, people. >> no. because, listen, he's actually run resistance not only for republicans abusing power but also democrats as he writes. >> he's equally a stooge. >> for, of course constantly attacking robert mueller's investigation and defending people like paul manafort. he's being shunned.

i only wonder as we bring in walter isaacson and bob cafta to our conversation, walter, have you ever been shunned from clam bakes for running resistance for american citizens that are running resistance from vladimir putin's interest in central or eastern europe? well i think we have oyster boils down here in new orleans not clam bakes. one of the things do you see happening, and you talked about it in, you know poland and now in hungary, the czech republic is this rise of a sense of fascism. when i hear professor dershowitz talk about mccarthyism that's so insane. what's happening now is this push back on the rule of law by authoritarian leaders around the world, enabled, empowered and led by donald trump.

we were singing "america the beautiful" before the fireworks on the levee here and there's that wonderful line about self-control thy liberty and law. the notion that people whether it be in poland or in the white house are going push back on the rule of law and destroy or try to delegitimize our legal institutions. that's what we should worry about as we celebrate the birth of our country. >> katty kay, you can draw a straight lynn to what donald trump is saying here in the united states about the rule of law, questioning the authority of federal judges to review his orders, attacking an independent investigation looking into vladimir putin's undermining of american democracy, something that's been a stated goal since 2014. draw a straight line to what's happening in poland, hungary, austria, what's happening across

central and eastern europe. they are inspired by an american president who time and again has shown little respect for constitutional norms, or an independent judiciary. by the way, that's not an opinion. look at his own quotes. he does not understand. he does not respect. he does not -- he does not revere america's tradition of rule of law and it's something we're seeing poland imitate now. >> i remember the day james comey was fired, i was having a dinner with a group of female human rights activists and they were dismayed what happened. they came from countries in africa, latin america and asia and said we'll go back home now and things will be tougher for us too because our leaders will look at what's happening in the united states and feel that they can act with impunity. we've seen around the journld t

journalists being locked up on the premise they are occupying a position of fake news. we've never seen journalists locked up for fake news. daniel ortega in nicaragua. there's a big new study out showing for the first time since 1979 more countries in the world are back sliding on democracy than are advancing in democracy and the acceleration has been in the course of the past two years. so you're exactly right. what's happening here is having ripple effects around the world. it's pushing a rise of authoritarianism. in europe the pressure is on the eu how do you respond to what's happening in poland. do you clamp down on it or let this shift continue. >> how exciting it must be for republicans that are lackeys for donald trump. daniel ortega, that ronald reagan pushed back on, trying to stop this sort of influence, this sort of government in

central america. now their republican president that they revere, that they run resistance for is inspiring daniel ortega in nicaragua. you can't make it up. >> i just want to get in that the republican senators who are kowtowing to putin in russia, in moscow, what katty just talked about is playing into putin's hand and out of putin's playbook, the authoritarianism that breaks down the rule of law, calling regular journalism fake news and then propagate its own fake news by making up stories for propaganda. when i see a republican delegation there in moscow on the fourth of july saying we're taking pages -- talking to putin, i realize that this

administration has enabled them to take pages out of putin's playbook and to serve his purpose. that's even worse than enabling danny ortega. ronald reagan would be appalled. >> the engagement in this way within the republican party is staggering. >> david ignatius, it is staggering. we talked about dr. brzezinski, chased from his homeland in poland to canada and then the united states by hitler and kept out by the soviet menace, spending his entire life communism, fighting the spread of it across europe. ronald reagan. some of these republicans still in congress, and i can think of one in california in particular. i don't want to even mention his name because it's not worthy of mentioning his name. but when i knew him he was -- he was one of the greatest

proponents of reagan's anti-communism. and now you've got republicans kowtowing to vladimir putin and russia and all the things that ronald reagan fought against his entire life. >> joe, i'll tell you 30 second story on the eve of this meeting between trump and putin. i went to moscow in 1983 as a young correspondent, just after the famous reagan axis of evil speech. i remember meeting with a dicy dent. we had to take elaborate routes to disargues how we were going to meet him. he turned to me an american visitor how can it be in your country which is so rich and probably so corrupt, how it is that the president has risen and tells the truth about us? who says us by our true name the evil empire. how could this have happened. i always think of that when i think about the force of what an

american president says. for good, calling people out, telling the truth, naming authoritarianism or for bad. when you see trump and his embrace of putin and what he stands for, you see these republicans as walter said running off to moscow to say nice things, i think back to what that man told me. how can there be a president who has risen and tells the truth about us. that's what we need right now. >> walter, after the collapse of the soviet union you heard other stories like that. you know reagan speaking out about jewish die dissidents be treated badly in russia and how it went through the entire community not just the jewish community but through the entire anti-soviet community. under grand resistance. they were charged because an american president was actually having the courage to call out

russia for what they were. again, people in reagan's party right now what they are doing and what they have been doing over the past couple of years, trying to cover the tracks of vladimir putin and how he's been trying to influence our democracy since 2014. again, this is not fake news, you can look at it all of trump's intel chiefs, all four of them testified that that is exactly what is happening. >> walter? >> right. and what you saw with the delegation of republicans to moscow is unusual is that it was all one party. it used to be we spoke as a nation and so most delegations would be bipartisan, or at least try to be. but this is a wing of the republican party, unfortunately, it seems the majority of the party right now in the senate

embracing putinism and doing it as a party. like david ignatius, i spent a lot of time as a correspondent in russia in the 1980s. there's a wonderful book "children of the arbach" about the dissidents. it just wasn't about communism, it was about totalarianism. it was over and over again the individual right to freedom. that's what happened when you went to that part of moscow. you saw that welling up with america as the guiding star. now the united states government and republicans in the senate who went to moscow and donald trump is doing putin's bidding are not the guiding star, they are the ones following this authoritarian, anti-democratic time of policies that putin

that's been trying typical pose and successfully imposing all over europe and helping the american system with it in the past couple of years. >> you know, bob costa, you've seen up close, you have followed the conservative movement, the history of the conservative movement. it certainly is. we certainly do find ourselves at a strange, strange time in 2018 that a party that worshipped, that worshipped freedom under ronald reagan and not only in america but across the globe, and actually that continue to, the most conservative part of the republican party, what do they call themselves? the freedom caucus. that right now it's not just republicans in washington, you look at poland, vladimir putin is more popular with the rank-and-file republicans across the country than he ever has been. >> well, joe, the outcry of it in this discussion isn't evident

on capitol hill and based on my report over the past few months that has to do with the absence of senator mccain due to his health, senator graham was expected to maybe assume that role of the hawkish contrarian to president trump but he has not when it comes to foreign policy. so you don't see the traditional voices in the republican party establishment anywhere close to party and those that are like marco rubio of florida are not playing a major role in countering president trump. senator rubio is often defending president trump. it's the outside not the inside voices and that picture with the republican senators over in moscow really tells the whole story. >> bob, let's shift really quickly for a second here to the supreme court pick. we've had a lot of focus on senator murkowski from alaska and senator collins from maine. both of those senators may end up voting against donald trump's

nominee for the supreme court, but i'm really intrigued by what you're hearing, what others are saying about the three democrats that joe manchin, donnelly in indiana, heidi highcamp in north dakota, do you have any indication how they are leaning, how much pressure democrats are putting on them to stay united with the party? >> yes. it's not so much what they are thinking, it's about who the nominees could be and how it would play for these senators. rick kavanaugh the judge in the d.c. circuit he's been criticized by conservatives for not being conservative enough on certain dissents. because of that conservative criticisms some tell me it could be helpful in pulling senator collins or senator murkowski towards a yes vote. the other thing, the red state

democrats, could someone like judge kethledge or judge barrett coming from the midwest and have non-ivy league ideas. >> walter, what is your thoughts about this selection by donald trump and how significant it is in the history of the court? >> it's very significant because in the past 40 years on the court we've always had a swing vote. that was justice blackman was, sandra day o'connor and that's what justice anthony kennedy was. if you get a selection on the court that's not willing to be, a person is not willing to be open to both sides of the case, and just reliably ideological -- by the way we see the reliable ideological on both sides of the court. some are reliably on the left, some reliably on the right.

what makes the court work well, whether it was in any supreme court decision that swing vote, that person can listen. justice kennedy did that. justice o'connor did that so well. if that type of person is not nominated, somebody who is open to just hearing the arguments and following the law rather than following ideology, then the supreme court becomes like the rest of our society in washington now, just totally polarized on partisan lines instead of being a bulwa rx of democracy. so i hope he finds somebody in the role of ken die or o'connor or blackman or maybe chief justice roberts will have to move himself a bit, understanding as he does the historical significance of the supreme court and become more of

a swing vote. >> walter isaacson, professor of history at tulane, thank you very much. >> he has a very popular class. >> walter we're coming down and we're going to -- >> we're going to talk. >> no, we will listen to walter talk. >> no, you're going to talk and mr. meacham and i will find the restrooms for. >> i like it. all right. it's a date. what do you think? especially i think it will be a big reveal and end up being one of the two candidates that are whittled down. probably a woman. >> i actually -- the thing to look for is actually what walter talked about at the end that is chief justice roberts who swroetd the conservative block overwhelmingly the majority of the time. when he didn't, it was to uphold the affordable care act, obamacare. and he did that in part, i think most court observers said he did

that in part with anthony kennedy scolding him in the dissent. he did that in part because reports were that he's an institutionalist, he did not want the supreme court to undo, in their opinion, what had been done at the voting booth and actually scolded those that suggested they should. you don't like the affordable care act, you take care of it in the voting booth. basically telling voters you do your job we'll do ours. the question is what happens if they move too quickly on roe or marriage equality or on guns. what happens if they move too quickly on some issues that have established precedence. certainly with abortion, we've had an established precedent since 1973. does he step in, dissent and remain even though he by all indications he believes roe v. wade was an overstep?

does he take a more incremental approach? everybody that knows him has always suggested that. justice thomas would overturn it tomorrow. justice thomas would overturn a lot of opinions. every day is a new day at the court for clarence thomas. there are many justices that see their job on the supreme court that way. on the left and on the right. john roberts understands the importance of the institution. understands the importance of the credibility of the institution. and i'm not saying he's going to bolt to the center or to the left, that's not going to happen. but like wise don't expect him to just throw out -- >> right. >> -- a 40 year precedent, expect a more incremental approach. >> we'll the end block giving "the washington post" editorial board the last word on the discussion we were having at the start of this hour. their piece yesterday on the quote real meaning of america

first reads in part this. history makes it all the more difficult to understand why the president of a nation that long ago set itself against tyranny now praises and consworts so many unsavory national leaders in europe, asia and the middle east. some of them outright dictators. some imposing authoritarian schemes to the extent they can get away with it. some inflicting brutal oppression on their enemies and just about all of them profiting handsomely from their positions. last month, homage was paid to the head of the north korean government an unspeakable cruel regime that broke many promises to american presidents and may well break more. this month president trump will meet with russian president vladimir putin whose government and its minions have worked increasingly to undermand faith in democracy by spreading false information, meddling in foreign elections and sponsoring

invasions of neighboring countries and by some accounts, assassinations at home and abroad. perhaps something goodwill come of mr. trump's missions but history suggests that it takes a great deal more than one president's personality and line of power to advance world comity and good order. are american workers the human shields? we'll ask a leading republican congressman next on "morning joe". booking a flight at the last minute doesn't have to be expensive. just go to priceline. it's the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40%. just tap and go... for the best savings on flights, go to priceline.

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the trump administration is set to escalate its trade battles even as the effects are

beginning to be felt by americans. the administration is expected tomorrow to impose $34 billion worth of additional tariffs on chinese goods. beijing has vowed to take equal and immediate measures. china is taking action against companies. u.s. companies said china has increased random port and border inspections over the last month, even ordering perishable goods into quarantine and back to the u.s. in addition to stalling product approvals and slowing up worker visa and licensing applications. there's growing fear stateside that trump's proposals and trade strategies are hurting the very industries he has vowed to help. among them, quote, mr. trump's recent threats to impose tariffs on imports of european autos could trigger a trade war,

raising prices for all vehicles. joining us now republican congressman tom cole of oklahoma. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. moaningman a bel. congressman, a belated happy infuriate. >> winning trade wars is not easy. i do think the president is trying to reset the table. in some areas that's necessary to do. >> what areas. >> my district is the leading producer of tires in the world. a number of years ago chinese were dumping steel for tires. so we had retaliatory practices.

again, the size of the trade deficit that we have with china is not sustainable in the long term. privately they will tell you that themselves. a lot of countries around the world would tell the same thing. >> talk about taking a case to the wto and prevailing and getting retaliatory tariffs on the chinese. the president telling peopleempts the united states to lead the wto. would that be a mistake? >> i think so. i think the wto provides some stability. i would like it to act more quickly and i'm not sure if it's quite as fair as it ought to be but sort of beats dog eat dog international trading system in my view. >> what about china? i think you talk to most business people. they tell you over the past couple of decades china has not been a good actor on the world

stage economically, especially the theft of our intellectual property. what about the president's attacks on canada, the president's attacks on mexico, the attacks on germany, the attacks on our allies in the eu? there a line there? >> i would. again, for instance, nafta is 20 plus years old. it's time to sit down and renegotiate. some bearriers i'm concerned about. again, these are friends and allies, i think you treat them differently. but, again, i think just because somebody is your friend and ally politically and militarily done mean they don't try to take advantage economically. again that's just part of the way the world works. i don't mind having direct talks. but i see a big difference between the europeans, the mexicans and canadians than i do with the chinese. >> bob cost from "the washington

post" has a question. congressman, scott pruitt is from your state. is it time for him to resign. >> it's a decision for him and the president to make. they certainly raise a lot of questions and in this business you can't afford that. >> what specifically has raised questions to you? >> i just think the personal activities of looking like you're bending the rules to favor yourself personally. those things are troublesome. i think using staff for things that are clearly personal, you know, soliciting positions for a spouse. that seems to be beyond the pale. your opponents will take advantage of. there are things that are unseemly. >> i want to ask you about the president's separation policy that he backed off on but left

2,000 some children in sort of in the balance, not knowing their fate and not knowing if they will be reunited with their families. there's a lot of questions about what the status of those children are, a little bit of a problem being able to see them and understand the process. the press seems to be blocked out from that. what do you think of the policy first and then how it has been handled, understanding that tissue of immigration is deeply complicated and there are other bills that could be put forward to that could be constructive. but this policy specifically, what's your take on it? >> i think it's unsustainable, unjustifiably. you don't separate families. i think the president beat a lasty retreat because the reaction was so negative, bipartisan sense across the board. he was right to do that. i think we ought to be bending every effort to put these families back together. it's complicated. courts made it difficult to

actually hold somebody who has a child, and then frankly when you release them we've had problems with catch and release people not coming back. we're just going to have to work through. at the end of the day the country is never going to allow a policy like that to stand nor should it, in my view. but, again, as you point out i dealt with this, frank lir, because the subcommittee i chair funds health and human service. i dealt with it in the obama years, we're dealing it now. it's a vexing problem. the obama administration went to court on this and lost some cases in trying to deal with families that come because, frankly, in some cases, the families are using the children as an excuse to get here. could you have gone to any embassy in country of origin and sought asylum. you can do it at the port of authority. when you cross the border you start complicating the situation. you present the border patrol with an almost impossible

situation to deal with. >> david ignatius? >> congressman, i wanted to ask you, talking again about trade, whether there are voices in the republican party, voices in congress who are beginning to say to the white house, don't push this much farther. is there any kind of push back from, from republicans saying we still need to be the party of trade, don't, don't overdo this? >> i think there's been quite a bit of push back. sometimes it gets lost. almost immediately when the steel and aluminum tariffs were announced, kevin brady who is chairman of ways and means put together a letter of over 100 republican house members. i was one of them that raised concerns about this and pushed back pretty hard. i think that's continuing. obviously we've seen senator corker's efforts in the united states senate. look the republican party historically has been a free trade party at least since the second world war.

that idea is not going away. the president is trying to reset the table. we have some bad actors out there like the chinese and some friends who take advantage ever us because we've been lax in this area. we understand what he's trying to do but we don't want to get in a trade world. we think it's damaging and undo a lot of the good work the president is responsible for in terms of the tax cut and de deregulatory reform. >> as americans there's things we think about on fourth of july, what makes this country so special to us. i'm curious, what do you think when it's the fourth of july and you have a moment to reflect on your country? >> it's funny you should say that. i actually keep a journal. i was writing in the journal yesterday. i think i'm one of the luckiest people on the planet. you win the human lottery when born in america. i've been privileged and blessed to grow up in freedom.

other people paid a price. my dad was a korean veteran. my brother was in the vietnam. when you're in the united states of america you really have been blessed by, you know, the almighty, and you're in the freest most diverse, most dynamic country in the world. we've been the leader for 242 years. god will we will be for the next 242 years. i don't see how you cannot feel blessed and fortunate if you're an american. >> congressman tom cole thank you so much for being on this morning. >> thank you for waking up after a full day of parades and people don't understand when they see oklahoma city, oklahoma, that's like pensacola, florida, central time zone. you got up a little earl. thank you very much. coming up we'll talk to a proud american who was just as proud to see england win a world cup penalty shoot out. we'll explain that all next on "morning joe". should know first.

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well, joining us now nbc's sports soccer analyst, co-host of "men in blazers," roger

bennett. >> it will change your life. katty kay, are you still here? >> i am. >> you were talking about all the brits that were screaming and yelling. roger just became an american recently. >> i have to become american. >> this is what katty told me. they were quoting coleridge. instead of crossing, the albatross was hung about my neck. you were the albatross hung around england's neck and when you finally left -- >> it's a win-win. england gets to being a great at football. every national has an identity. americans like to win. england likes to lose at penalty kicks in major tournaments. >> liverpool's own. >> and when this gentleman missed, it felt like the beatles

broke up all over again. colombia missed the penalty which is shocking. then tiny, this tiny little man said we shall fight in the corners, we'll fight in the penalty box. with my wrist of steel i'll deny you. look at this. unbelievable little man changing the course of history. this for me up there up 1066, churchill's birth, 2018 enbland win at penalty kick. if i ever think everything will be all right -- >> katty kay, seriously, when it comes to the world cup, england's national identity has centered around losing a penalty kick. it's constant self-sabotage. we have this identity of a team that lose.

huge expectation. we're going to go to the world cup and the whole country holds its breath. for a moment we think we have glory and empire again. this team is different. they went in, much more low key manager. the manager said we'll going and have fun. we don't expect we'll win. downplay expectations. what do you think, roger? >> part of the story. >> changed the story. now having to deal with victory. we're so befuddled. >> a journalist in england, we're going to get married. they flip from doom to we'll win it in a heart beat. a lead striker, father was irish, grew up in portugal, the other creative force, born in jamaica. this team is a model of the opposite of brexit. it's a global england which is a

very proud statement to watch. >> i can tell you from a distance watching in '06 and being disappointed by england in '06, '10 and' 14, these guys i cheered for every saturday and sunday morning. i'm dead serious. when they get on the field, world cup and i'm talking about the legends. i'm dead serious. they seem like bloated 1970s rock stars. there was no hunger. really it sickened me to see how they disappeared on the field. >> macbeth in is field. >> hovering around. >> we have to credit -- >> it's far different now. >> all the children that are watching my kids watched it at summer camp. i got footage of them watching. i'm so proud they got to experience it live. the manager of this england team

an average player in 1996 he got the penalty that knocked them out in the semi-final. it still haunts notice this day. but he took his greatest trauma, failure, processed it and prepared his young charges with a lesson from his own failure. he took them to glory. there's a lesson. perseverance, tenacity, rebound. they make great human beings not just great athletes. >> it's beautiful. >> almost an american story. >> yeah. >> almost, katty kay. almost an american story. and i heard that he was so, talking about the albatross, so interested in getting the albatross from around the neck that when they trained they would have their goal keeper and they would tell the goal keeper which direction they were going.

he's going, owes going, tell the goal keeper -- they are going left. and that way the players had to a goal keeper knew which way they were going. >> there's a football story and a human one. he said do not be bound by history. these were his words. write your own story. every young person watching this show should take heed, write your own story. katty you said it's american. i thought about churchill and success is not final, failure is fatal, it's the courage to continue that counts. that's what we watched, trapped in a football story great life lesson. that's what was incredibly moving. they may lose in the next round. >> for americans who may not understand this, nations just stop in the summers of world cups and their spirits go up or down. it means so much to them. katty kay, though, you're

starting to see it mean a lot to americans. last night as mika and i pulled up to our home, there was a boy playing soccer across the street. we get out of the car and i guess they knew that we watched the world cup and i was an england fan because he screamed at the top of his lungs, football comes home. in westchester county. buried it in the net. >> roger bennett -- >> next time make it to the world cup. we love it when the u.s. plays too. >> i got to say rather quickly, they are telling me we got to go to the next segment. i'll say this, though, that you look on the field and you look at the captain. it's harry kaine. he's not a ronaldo. he's not flashy. he doesn't demand that the whole world looks at him. he gets the job done.

he looks like he was in dunkirk. the movie. >> watch the world cup on telemundo. >> so much better. >> french-youruguay. russia playing croatia. >> no collusion. >> i watched mexico in a bar in mexico city on monday morning. best place to be. >> quick prediction, uruguay-france? >> i believe in uruguay. >> do you really? for russia, never bet against them when playing in moscow. >> never do that. >> do that at your period ridiculous. up next abolish i.c.e. movement divides democrats on capitol hill. thank you, roger. we'll see where senator ben cardin stands on the issue when he joins us next. >> ask him his favorite part of

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joining us now, member of the foreign relations committee, democratic senator ben cardin of maryland. good to have you on board this morning, sir. >> senator, let's start with the president's supreme court pick. what are your thoughts, what is the correct response for democrats? >> first, it is good to be with you. clearly the president is looking at a list prepared by an extreme group that has an agenda that really wants to ratify the president's policies. i think what the american people need to be concerned about is that we're talking about changing the balance on the supreme court that will affect their rights. women's right of choice, worker rights, consumer rights. we need an independent supreme court that will protect your constitutional rights from the abuses of the president or congress or corporate america. and that is on the line with this nominee. >> david ignatius has a question

he. >> senator, if i'm reading the stories right, you are one of the democrats who is warning fellow democrats to be careful about calling for the abolition of i.c.e. i want to ask you whether you think this is a political mistake for the democrats in this season to be pushing this issue so hard. >> well, we need an agency that will deal with our border policies on migration and commerce. what we don't want is the policy that donald trump has announced, we don't want to separate families at the border. we want to allow people at the border to be able to seek asylum. so the policy in the way it is being implemented by i.c.e. is not sustainable. >> but you wouldn't seek to bottom li abolish the agency? >> we need an agency at the border, so i'm for an agency, but i'm against the policies that are being implemented by this administration and the way i.c.e. is doing it. >> bob costa.

>> senator, democrats are talking a lot about the way that the core can move to the right on different social issues, but what about on economic and corporate issues, will democrats have an argument against the eventual nominee on this front? >> absolutely. we're talking about changing the balance, giving corporate america more power over consumers, we're talking about the rights of workers being compromised, we're talking about a supreme court that will not follow precedent, the list that has been prepared for the presidents comes from a group with an agenda. it is more than just one issue. it is the whole direction of the court to follow what the president wants rather than what the american people need. >> senator, it depends of course on who the nominee is, but how do you rate your chances of blocking this nomination? >> understand the nominee will be selected by a list that was prepared by the president by an extreme group. you're right, we need to see who it is.

but we know the list and the list has already been vetted for a particular objective. we want to make sure that we use every opportunity so the american people know exactly what is at stake. we know that senator mcconnell has been hypocritical in the time issues. 11 months was not enough time for president obama's nominee to be considered before an election. leader mcconnell will try to get this done in just a few months. that is hypocriticahypocritical. we used every tool we have for the american people to know what is at stake. >> and i'll ask you the same question i asked congressman qom. what are your thoughts on fourth of july, what do you take greatest pride in as an american? >> i heard congressman cole. and i certainly agree with his assessment. our strengths are our values. the fact that we are the leading democratic nation in the world, that we welcome those who have

challenges, that are being oppressed. this country has stood as a beacon of hope for people all around the world. we are blessed to live here and we should recognize our freedoms and work to preserve them. >> senator, thank you very much for joining us. and bob costa, thank you as well. still ahead, we'll get a report from england after a couple was poisoned by the same russian nerve agent used against a former spy earlier this year. plus, the "washington post" ruth marcus is here with a new column on the president's supreme court contenders. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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good morning and welcome to morning g"morning joe." it is thursday, july 5. we hope earned had a nice fourth of july. did you? >> wonderful. >> and with us this morning we have washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay, columnist david ignatius, and co-founder of axios, mike allen. president trump is expected to announce his supreme court nominee monday and has so far spoken with seven potential candidates. vice president pence has also met with some of those contender. a person familiar with the search process tells the a.p. that the meetings took place in recent days, but that person would not say which candidates

pence met with. right now two appeals court judges are seen as leading advocates. brett kavanaugh, a veteran of george w. bush's white house, and amy coney barrett, a former law clerk to justice antonin scalia. liberal groups are hoping to counter using similar tactics from last year's health care fight. political strategists are raising millions in advertising and activism to target senators lisa murkowski and susan collins, both who buck their own party's attempts to repeal the affordable care act. according to the erkt associate press, rand paul has told colleagues he may not vote for kavanaugh if he is nominated. a person familiar says the senator cited kavanaugh's role during the bush administration on cases involving executive privilege and the disclosure of documents to congress. >> rand paul always says that and then votes for whatever

donald trump wants him to vote for. full stop, rand paul will vote for trump's nominee. whoever it is. >> meanwhile senator susan collins who has said she won't support any supreme court pick who demonstrates hostility toward roe v. wade says she has talked to white house counsel about some of the potential scotus nominees. >> i've done a lot of work on the list, and i have told the white house counsel individuals that to me appeared to meet the criteria of accepting that roe v. wade is settled law. and to have extraordinarily good backgrounds. >> mike allen, nobody that donald trump selects is going to say that roe v. wade is settled law, are they? >> well, that's right. and that is why we have these two favorites that we just saw

there. the inside line is that amy barrett would be better for the base, but a tougher confirmation fight. so that is the calculus aird de are making. but this won't is ysurprise you people tell us that for the president, it will be all when the personal connection, who he feels comfortable with in the moment. >> so you're saying he'll pick the white man. >> oh, no, i totally don't think that. >> you disagree? look, only reason i say that, katty kay, if you see through the first year, 90% of donald trump's selections for u.s. attorneys and federal judges were white men. >> yeah, i guess the issue here would be that amy barrett represents more of donald trump's base. brett kavanaugh is much more establishme establishment, yale, harvard. that is not necessarily the type

of person -- nominated by george bush. that is not necessarily the type of person in the past that donald trump has had an instant rapport with. so he may go with the base pick on this one. he may feel if it really comes down on to how he feels about the person in the room, it wouldn't totally -- you're right, he has a thing about appointing white guys, but it wouldn't totally surprise me if he goes for somebody who feels more in line with the base on this one and gets his excitement about the base going. >> and mike allen, what about the timing of the pick? it seems to keep getting pushed up. thursday, friday, everybody saying that he may be selecting -- coming to a conclusion today. but i've heard your reporting suggesting that he may wait or his aides want him to wait until everybody is back in town. >> they do for sure. and i just talked to the white house last night about this. aides wouldn't be surprised if he jumps the gun on his own announcement if he does it today

or tomorrow as they said when the president has made his pick, when he is ready to go, he wants to go. but they are trying to convince him -- there is so much more logic to doing it monday. you have senators back in town for the rollout. people are back from vacation, you will get more attention. so in the end, they hope that their clinching argument bob wie the same argument that you will remember they used to keep him from moving the singapore summit up one day. they said you will get more coverage if you do this way, sir. that is frequently works with him. a man and woman in the uk doctor been critically poisoned using the same novichok that poisoned a former russian spy and his daults. police say the couple were found unconscious in their home on saturday in amesbury about seven miles away from salisbury where the march poisoning of sergei

skripal and his daughter occurred. the british government and multiple other countries including the united states blame russia for the salisbury incident. moscow has denied any involvement in this case. joining us now from salisbury, kelly cobiella. what's the latest? >> reporter: good morning. at this point ministers are in an emergency meeting in london while here in salisbury two people, british citizens, are both in critical condition. police confirmed late last night that they had been exposed to that deadly nerve agent novichok, the same as you mentioned that poisoned the russian -- former russian spy and his daughter back in march. they fell ill on saturday. the woman in her 40s became sick first, collapsing in seizures about 10:00 in the morning. she was taken to the hospital. and several hours later, by 3:00

in the afternoon, her partner also back ill. a friend said he was in a zombie-like state, sweating profusely with pinprick pupils. they were both tested and again they confirmed that they were both exposed to this poison. so the big questions now are how and why and where. police have cordoned off five separate locations in salisbury and amesbury this morning, a church, a park, a couple residences and a trash can. but they are really scratching their heads with this one. there is no obvious reason why these two people would specifically be targeted, although they are saying they are not ruling that out. it is more likely an accidental poisoning which would mean that there is potentially more novich novichok, traces of it, still in this city. >> kelly cobiella, thank you very much. katty kay, first, is there any

reason -- she said there was no concern that there was a connection or a reason why this second group of people, two people, were poisoned. but talk to us about the salisbury incident and the concern about russia there. >> right. so the salisbury incident was earlier this year, this was somebody who had defected from russia effectively, helping british authorities, had been living in the uk. his daughter was visiting him, the two went for a walk in a park, were poisoned, spent weeks in hospital. and then now are actually out of hospital, but they are of course being guarded full-time. the russians said this was the brits who had poisoned them, the britt on oigs pointed to novichok which is made in a couple places in the former soviet union, they have actually pinpointed to one factory potentially outside of moscow where this nerve agent could have been made. it is incredibly lethal. of que

whether sales beisbury was safe other people. but it has been weeks without any incident. they took a big effort to decontaminate the city. and now we get these two people with no relationship to russia in their background, no relationship to intelligence services, happened to have been shopping in salisbury the day before, fell sick the next day and of course the question seems to be did they just inadvertently come across some traces of this nerve agent and it is having these terrible consequences. >> so david ignatius, obviously the earlier attack points directly to russia and putin's government. there is no doubt about that. is this just collateral damage from the earlier russian attack? and the second thing is, can you explain just how extraordinary

it is that putin's government would attack former russian citizens on british soil? >> first, we don't know yet how this deadly agent came to be in a place where it was exposed to these two additional british subjects. that will be the subject of the investigation. but if as seems possible this was a case of sloppy procedures by people who set out to assassinate a former russian agent who flipped and became an agent for british intelligence, mr. skripal, that will infuriate the british, it will reannimate what was a bitter european protest to it's allies starting with the united states, you must help us deal with this activity.

and it is really important that it comes before president trump is scheduled to meet july 16 with vladimir putin. if the british traditionally, our closest ally, are saying you must join us in protesting this, that will put an additional issue on trump's plate. it is interesting to note that the russian as were seen as violating a cardinal rule of intelligence in this operation to go into another country and use these deadly agents, and these are the scariest things in anybody's cold war arsenal, to eliminate somebody in retaliation for that person's perceived disloyalty. so it is a big deal and it will come -- land on the white house's agenda i think before they head off for the helsinki summit. still ahead, riot police haven't been deployed yet, but there is new reporting of political divisions on martha's vineyard courtesy of allen

dershowitz. >> have you seen the place that nbc puts him up? >> it is a good location, but he is very exposed. all right. that is next on "morning joe." but first, we go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning. i got to get on that list. so 58 million people are at risk of heat today. we will get rid of the heat wave in the ohio valley today and then tomorrow in the northeast finally. but still 58 million under the advisories. memphis area, you are under expressive heat warning, could feel like 108 in the shade this afternoon. so for today, hit and miss showers and storms continue along the gulf coast. houston had a wet fourth of july are. you did get the fireworks in late at night, but all the other festivities were canceled. we'll also see showers in denver, chicago could have thunderstorms. and one of the other stories is the heat from the east to the

west. boise 102, phoenix, 114 this afternoon. so now let's get into friday because the cold front cools you off for a beautiful friday in chicago, detroit, and then we'll have rain moving through the east. be prepared for about a two hour period of rain and thunderstorms. but that will knock the temperatures down. and that will give everyone in the mid-atlantic region through the northeast and ohio valley a great saturday. but we will see some showers and storms along the gulf coast. and finally sunday does show pretty nice weather from the west all the way through the northern of that of the country. just soggy still down along the gulf coast. so the week long heat wave just about a wrap in areas like chicago, detroit and tomorrow we'll get rid of it in d.c. and also new york. and speaking of washington, d.c., it will feel like a nice sticky 98 degrees this afternoon even with some of those clouds around. you're watching "morning joe."

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unfortunately the scourge is back. it is sweeping from bar harbor down to boca raton and all points in between for allen dershowitz. "boston globe." >> you can't even go to martha's vineyard. >> it says dershowitz is receiving the cold shoulder in the vineyard. what say you? >> well, professor dershowitz says he is not whining, he is reveling in the fact that he is getting this cold shoulder. he says he is taking an principled unpopular stand on this issue and now is not getting invited poor thing to martha's vineyard. i'm just not sure you how this

goes down in steel country. >> exactly. >> are they sitting there in lorain, ohio saying oh, my god, we're so sorry that mr. dershowitz has come into trouble because he has opposed the mueller investigation? >> a frosty summer for alan dershowitz. and he claims that it is a principled stand, and yet he has been donald trump's mouthpiece, donald trump's bull horn in attacking robert mueller. this russian investigation that you are talking about where vladimir putin has crossed the line, all the intel chiefs have said that they are focused explicitly in undermining american democracy. and he is upset because doing the bidding of donald trump and by extension vladimir putin by attacking robert mueller iii, he is not allowed to come to the trendyist clam bakes without feeling a cold shoulder. >> it does sound like the parody of liberal elite.

but underneath, there is something that is real and is happening across the country which is that feelings on both sides of there are really getting intense. dershowitz's critics say you have enabled a president who hats been separating families, who is exceeding to the demands and desires of russia, who is attacking our basic structure of law, our alliness as. worries we'll shun you. we think those policies are wrong. dershowitz treats it as a stand on principle. hard to imagine the base getting too riled up about dershowitz' bad treatment, but we'll see. >> and also -- >> it is not like he's ever done it before. >> i was going to say, his defense is the worst defense in the world which is, well, i also defended bill clinton after the monica lewinsky scandal.

so i also helped that administration pile on a young 22, 23-year-old woman. so i'm done it for both sides. so basically saying i'm the court jester. whenever somebody needs me to bounce around and distract from the fact, i'm here for them. it seems the absolute wrong defense. >> ever since the o.j. trial, alan dershowitz has been a master of making sure he gets headlines. he likes to be in the news. he likes television cameras in front of him. he likes to be close to power. and it looks to me like this is kind of what he is doing this time around. he would say there are issues with which i publicly disagree with this president, issues like the forced separation of families for example, and it is ridiculous that i am being shunned in a liberal enclave even though i'm a liberal democrat. but there is something about

dershowitz that is a media personali personality. he puts him in that position and he has to suffer the consequences too. >> and as my grandmother would say, alan, when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. so he can't try to undermine robert mueller's investigation of vladimir putin trying to destroy our democracy, trying to undermine our democracy and then be shocked. >> joe, one point. there are no fleas on martha's vineyard, please. >> exactly. he has brought them there and they didn't like it. i will tell you, we are going to be later i'm sure sometime today we'll be reaching out and maybe have fun with our on the ground investigative reporter steve rattner. >> he is entrenched. tough gig. coming up on "morning joe,"

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frantic effort to rescue the soccer players trapped in a cave, a threat of monsoon rains expected to hit the area at the end of the week is forcing rescue teams to come up with alternative plans to free the boys and their coach. janice, the boys have been trapped for 12 days. what is the latest, what is the longest they could be there? >> reporter: this is a crucial 124 ho 1 24 hours where officials have to decide how and when they will bring the boys and their coach out. it has been 12 days now. they have been trapped there since they went exploring in the cave system and it became flooded by rain. the water level is said to be down in many parts of the cave between where they are and where they need to get to, influence are other parts that need skilled diving. and these boys don't know how to swim. so the officials need to look at

their primary concern, which is if they don't make a move soon, they could be stuck in there for months. the boys and their soccer coach appear in good spirits. new video shows them smiling and laughing with thai navy divers. a doctor treats their cuts and one by one they send messages to their families. i'm in good health, he says. another flashes a victory sign. but the boys are also at risk. heavy rains could push water levels higher inside the cave. that threat is forcing thai officials to consider an evacuation soon. the province's governor says if there is a risk, we will not move them out. rescue workers are doing drills, preparing for the moment the boys are brought to the surface, while officials say they are getting a crash course in diving and wearing full face masks. none of them can everyo even sw.

we spoke to a diver about the mission. >> i think that they can do it. i think it is possible. i just think it is also very, very dangerous choice to make and just takes a little bit of panic for things to go wrong. >> reporter: he says a safer option may be drilling a hole a half mile down right to the cave so the boys can avoid a risky trek that is at least 2 1/2 miles to the cave's entrance. some passageways too narrow for scuba gear. round the clock pumping has reduced water levels, but more rain needs stronger currents that could cut off access for divers. families watching that new video of the boys are anxious to be reunited. this mother saying i'm dying to see him, i miss my son. they are still pumping water out, but at this point everyone is looking at the sky and there is rain forecast to hit by the

weekend. >> oh, boy. thank you so much. coming up on "morning joe," at best they are almost good enough, at worse tht, they are unknown. a new book explores the role of the vice president and the complicated reality of the could be commander in cheefr. that is ahead. are re e ♪

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injection site reactions may occur. tell your prescriber about all medicines you take and all your medical conditions. taking tzds with insulins, like tresiba®, may cause serious side effects like heart failure. your insulin dose shouldn't be changed without asking your prescriber. get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing, fast heartbeat, extreme drowsiness, swelling of your face, tongue or throat, dizziness, or confusion. ask your health care provider if you're tresiba® ready. covered by most insurance and medicare plans. ♪ tresiba® ready ♪

. are you ready to move? there let's do this thing. let's move. i love joe biden. i really do. and i want to thank him for his friendship, his counsel, for always giving to me straight. for not shooting anybody in the face. for the final time as president,

i am pleased to award our nation's highest civilian honor, the presidential medal of freedom. this also gives the internet one last chance to talk about our bromance. ♪ >> mike, would you like to say a few words? >> i know i speak on behalf of the entire cabinet and millions of americans when i say congratulations and thank you. thank you. you've spurred an optimism in this country that is setting records. but mostly, mr. president, i'll end where i began. i want to thank you, mr. president. i want to thank you. >> appreciate that. thank you very much. >> a glimpse there in to the relationships between the most recent presidents and vice

presidents. recently we sat down with kate anderson produbrower. in her new book, she explores the lives and roles of 13 modern vice presidents writing in part, quote, vice presidents have only two constitutional duties, to succeed the president if he is unable to serve for any reason and to kt a as president of the senate to cast tie breaking votes. no matter how integrated they are, vice presidents always play second fiddle, at least they are the politician who was almost good enough. at worst, they are a virtual unknown who embarrasses the president. >> we began our discussion with kate's observation that traditionally the role of vice president is marked by an odd mix of resentment. >> lbj said he felt like a raven hovering over jfk's shoulder all the time. he was waiting in the wings and vice presidents always are. i mean they are always in this

position of jockeying for their boss' job with the exception of dick cheney who didn't want it and i think that made him a more effective vice president in that first term. but john adams said i'm vice president, i am nothing, but i may be everything. and so they are crucial. and not that this is going to happen, but the 25th amendment is very important. someone like mike pence holds some cards here, that if he wanted to, which i don't think he does, he could do some damage. so they are the one person who can't be fired easily in the administration. >> yeah, they are always first in line also to succeed the president. and some have already talked about mike pence possibly doing that in 2020. but going back again to this relationship and lbj's and kennedy's, that was obviously fraught with problems. but again, going back to eisenhower and nixon, it seems to typify what you write about this strange admiration that

they have. nixon tried to gain ike o's approval up until the day he died. and when he heard of his death, reports were of course that nixon broke down and cried in the oval office was ike was the father who never really gave him that admiration back. >> i think he desperately wanted eisenhower's approval and he wanted his endorsement when he ran. and in 1960, you know, president eisenhower was famously asked can you name something your vice president has accomplished and he said i'll get back to you and never came up with anything, even though nixon did a lot for eisenhower. he was never given that respect. and i think part of that had to do with the fact that he was much younger. he didn't have a lot of money. he wasn't someone that eisenhower felt he had to ingratiate himself to. there was always a clear line of who is boss.

>> and there is a ton of new reporting in this book and among the most fascinating tidbits is that you interviewed mike pence's brother who told you that president trump reminds pence of his domineering father, the quote is in the white house pence is extraordinarily differential and never expresses a strong opinion when president trump is in the room. how did mike pence view his relationship with donald trump? because you also report that in some ways donald trump mocks his faith from time to time and asks visitors to the west wing did mike make you prayer before you came in. >> pence's father was more than domineering. when the children didn't stand up when an adult came in the room, he would beat them with a belt. so mike pence is used to dealing with somebody who is kind of tyrannical. and i think that he is used to staying quiet. he spends about three hours a day with the president. there is an intense feeling of gratitude, too, that mike pence has. he knows the only reason on

god's green earth that he is in the white house is because of donald trump. and i think there is a mutual fascination there. i talked to somebody who was there for this breakfast that the pences and trumps had and the trumps were taken aback that the pences were making breakfast and serving them and holding hands and that mike pence had $15,000 in his bank account. you know this, is something that to them is completely foreign. and so there is this mutual fascination. i wouldn't say respect. >> is part of the reason why -- i think it is fair to that i presidents and vice presidents by and large, you can look at al gore, bill clinton, even dick cheney and george bush, it is part of the reason why the choice to appoint someone, you are inherently going for someone who supplements you, who fills in voids that you have in your

political biography. so for jfk, getting someone from the south. for obama for instance, it was getting a seasoned foreign policy person. and they are just not simpatico with you. is that a big issue? >> i think that is true especially today. melania trump i was surprised she played a pivotal role in picking pence because she said we need someone who is clean, those were her words. >> like trump would rather appoint howard stern has his vp. >> yeah. exactly. like he had michael flynn on that list for a long time and his advisers were telling him get him off there. >> so why don't more presidential candidates go with someone they enjoy being around in wouldn't that bring out a good part of their personality? >> it is a good idea, but then they might not win. but i thought it was interesting that biden -- you bring up how different they are, but they are the only case at least in my reporting of a president and

vice president who grew closer over time and the whole bromance i was surprised wasn't super fr the very beginning. biden was kind of upset at first when he was told that he had to clear his replacement in the senate through president obama. >> the rare case where biden was on the record insulting obama before he was president. >> right. >> and i can't help but be fascinated with the relationship with karen pence and how she views donald trump and there seems to be somewhat of a tension between the pence family's strong religious views and then donald trump. so where do the loyalties lie at the end of the day and what has it been -- did your reporting give you any sense of what it has been like for mrs. pence to navigate that relationship? >> i was surprised how involved she is. they refer to it as the k factor. she will change his mind at the last minute on issues when he was governor, staffers told me that he would completely change

on an issue, it was always because he had talked to her. and so after the "access hollywood" take came out, trump called both pences to apologize and i'm told she was very upset about it. it's something they don't like to talk about because there is inherent hypocrisy to all of this, but they were willing to look beyond it. and i interviewed a radio host who was pence's boss at one point and he said he's never met a more directable talent in his life. >> that is a great term. there iscluding about the phone calls joe biden and mike pence have every month and joe biden's feeling about hillary clinton. but you have to read to find out. the book is "first in line." thanks for being here. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ins to chang, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall.

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we of course have been concerned all morning about mccarthyism creeping across cape cod from sandwich to province town. and of course john is known of course as the prince of martha's vineyard. have you been excluded from clam bakes of late? >> so sorry. >> i have never been to martha's

vineyard. and i'm 57 years old. so, yes, i've been excluded my entire life, joe. so i'm really -- and i keep kosher so i couldn't even eat the clams. >> that is horrible. >> it's mccarthyism to serve clams on martha's vineyard. that's what i say. can i just say, i think dershowitz phrased this badly and the mccarthyism thing is a ludicrous thing to say, but i find it totally plausible that in this unbelievably partisan atmosphere that his friendships are being tested and his social relationships are being impacted by his let's say favorable treatment of trump and how he -- that he shouldn't be impeached.

this is very much of a piece of the social social experiences of a lot of people who take views that contrast with, you know, the orthodoxy in the communities that they live in. and he is now experiencing it and he hasn't experienced it before. but a lot of us have in the course of our lives. and a lot of people are now. >> i was just going to say, there is a reason why people like you and i haven't been invited to martha's vineyard parties while the clintons and obamas ruled the roost there. why should alan dershowitz be so shocked that it is finally happening to him? i wonder how many conservatives have been sitting around the table of those parties over the past 20 or 30 years. i mean did they have steve scalise there when barack obama was holding court on martha's vineyard? did they have tom delay there? come on. these things happen. and by the way, it is not just

that he is against the impeaching of donald trump. the guy is running resistance for paul manafort every bit as much as he did for o.j. simpson. >> fair enough. and some of us would think that that appellate work on behalf of o.j. and others, you know, also could be the sort of thing that would lead someone to be shunned in certain sectors of polite society. >> right. >> but if dershowitz is having this experience, it is a little representative. it's very easy to make fun of it because it's like oh, you know, i'm not having fun on martha's vineyard anymore but, i mean, it is suggestive on how impossible it is now in this atmosphere to have -- to hold opinions that run counter to the orthodoxy of the world that you live in. >> but, again, though -- again,

i want to open this up to everybody else, but i'm speaking to you as a conservative because you and i would understand this pretty well as being outspoken conservatives. again, it may be a little more intense, but my god if i tried to walk on martha's vineyard in 1998 or 1999 during impeachment or 2000 during the recount, nobody would say, hey, there's joe scarborough, right wing congressman, let's invite him, you know, to our clambake. >> right, by the way, the other thing is, it's not necessarily so pleasant to be in the company of people who disagree with you so powerfully that it's hard to have civil concourse, you know, that's something that happened, for example, to my parents in the late 60s, early 70s, when they moved from left to right and their friendships were deeply compromised because they had two choices. one of which was to kind of stay

silent and smile and not sort of involve themselves in the most controversial conversations, or to fight back. either way, that's not a pleasant position to be in, either a swallow your words or to end up being, you know, having combat with people that you're just trying to have a nice dinner with. >> right. so -- no, no, i totally agree with you. by the way, you see, we have the editor of commentary magazine with us, also columnist of "the post." also joining us steve kornacki. fortune magazine senior editor at large leigh gallagher. and columnist and deputy page editor with the "washington post" ruth marcus. you know, ruth, it's not -- i will say it's a bit more intense. then it was let's say even during the clinton administration. because there you knew who --

you know, you knew the sides. now, i can tell you, and i'm not alone here, when i get together with family members, we have learned you do not talk politics. for the first time in our lives, we understand that if we are going to be a happy functioning family unit, we don't talk about donald trump. >> it can't be done. >> and people don't defend paul manafort at my dinner table and i don't attack paul manafort at my dinner table. we talk kids and grabbed kndkid that's. >> i think the intensity today is so much more than the intensity of ten years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago. we had intense fights then over -- we had enormous family disruption over at our family dinner table, extended family dinner table, over things like during the bush administration, the war in iraq.

i was a member of "the washington post" editorial board, which was supportive of the war. and i got a lot of incoming from family members. but this, this is different. this is an intensity level that really john talked about his parents in the '60s and '70s. this really has fractured a lot of friendships that survived some of those earlier moments. >> i will say one of those -- steve, one of mika's family's thanksgiving dinners ended up on the front lawn during the iraq war. i think we've seen really intense timed, like this. sure, there was squabbling, but that was a generation -- >> my brother was working in the bush administration. >> yes, one of her brothers was working in the -- >> while my father was writing op-eds critical -- so that's a little, that's intense, i don't think -- >> yes, that sounds like a volatile --

>> and it was dr. brzezinski after all. not one to sort of bite his tongue. >> i think to the extent it feels different now and it feels more intense and it feels like this sort of thing is happening more, i think one of the reasons is all of political discussion, all of the polarization right now, it's in everybody's face 24/7. you look at your phone. >> which is how donald trump wants it. >> it's the style, this is the twitter president. you check your phone when you get out of your car, off the subway, whatever it is, and you are confronted with five emotionally pleasing tweets or facebook posts from people you agree with that put the world in starkly moral terms that make you go, yes, this is the side i'm on. you're confronted with five that make you say no, these are the people i'm fighting against. you get that 24/7 throughout the day. whereas it used to be what, the nightly news, the morning newspaper, then talk to your co-workers during the day and maybe it would be other stuff you talk about. >> leigh, though, i do wonder,

and maybe this is just me, but trump tweets now, i don't even read tweets. i wait for the reaction to the tweets and it's the same old crowd, and so i remember something was tweeted a couple weeks -- or last week. it seems like five years ago. where donald trump just completely contradicted himself and, you know -- and then the next, he's like, i never said -- instead of like, you know, ripping ash cloth and -- the whole ash cloth -- >> sack cloth. >> sack cloth and ashes. i just laughed. i just laughed. i turned off my phone. >> it's -- we've moved -- i mean, we're really living in a post-fact world as we've all commented a lot. maybe towards a never fact world. things are just false. that's incredibly dangerous. i also think it's a strategy playing in with a debasement of the media, because it's all of the piece, right?

many reporters feel like they're not even -- people are not even believing they're actually reporting. so that has a real impact. the thing about harley last week, harley sales are down. harley davidson, 7%, because of their movings. the move was just announced last month. we're talking about sales in 2017. there's no way, it's just laughable. then he corrected himself with one typo. people pore over my tweets. he said, i've written many book, it was p-o-r-e. and i will say, it's front page news that dershowitz feels excluded there because we're still, even though these filter bubbles are what led to the election arguably, we're still in our bubbles. we're still not colliding and crossing boundaries and talking with each other. we're still living in our isolated worlds i think to a

large degree. >> ruth, you have a new column this morning on who you say would be the trump supreme court pick who would pose the biggest danger to abortion rights. who is that? >> that is amy coney barrett. she's been a judge on the federal appeals court based in chicago for eight months. so she has the shortest judicial track record and paper trail of any of the potential nominees. but she has a lot of -- i had a great time over the fourth of july reading law review articles, a little pathetic, that she wrote. here's what emerges from her law review articles. she is extremely personally opposed to abortion. it comes through in law review articles that she wrote about the duty of a catholic judge hearing death penalty cases. and she has, and this is very relevant to senator collins and the others, a very un -- not

unusual but very well-developed view about how much respect a judge, a justice who she says believes that a precedent that is wrongly decided, she says that justice's responsibility is to the constitution and not to uphold the precedent. so i think you put those two together and it's a flashing neon sign, let me at it, i'll overrule roe. >> do you agree with walter isa isaacson earlier said this may move john roberts not to be a liberal but more of an institutionalist, if the court tries to move too quickly? he's more of a step by step incrementalist, as we saw in the affordable care act? >> well, if trump's next pick is a hard-line conservative, there is this space in the court for someone to be the sort of leftward edge of the right. it seems over time those spaces

do get filled by justices almost by osmosis or simply by the process of how these things work, and roberts is the obvious person to be that person. i think in the barrett case, you have an interesting dynamic for trump. barrett is clearly going to be the most -- would be the most controversial of the nominees. and might like it. because that would stimulate the right, get people out to vote if she comes under really grievous attack in the fall. >> all right. ruth marcus, steve kornacki, leigh gallagher, thank you. such a great panel. we have to have you on tomorrow. which means i'm going to ask you to stay. chris jansing picks up the coverage. >> thanks so much, joe and mika. i'm chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle this time. unfriend. scrubs mentions of the president from his twitter account just days after publicly distancing himself from trump in a