markets don't like a tight labor market because it makes costs go up for businesses. the trade deals went into place, trade war in place. the dow closed higher. i'll see you at 10:00 eastern. thanks for watching. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts now. /s >> hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. in a rally speech better designed for a shrink's couch than a public setting donald trump aired grievance after grievance after grievance and made an obvious grab for the spotlight that for much of the day yesterday was owned by his disgraced epa administrator scott pruitt. pruitt resigning amid a sea of ethical scandals and withering criticism from across the ideological spectrum. trump, who one close friend and outside advisor once described as the sun king because he wants all the media's attention for himself, lashed out at the press, at john mccain, at george h.w. bush, the fbi, democrats

and the me too movement. >> democrats want anarchy. they really do. we call them the democrat party. you know why? the democratic party sounds too good. yes, she is a low-iq individual. i said it the other day. she's somewhere in the mid 60s. let's say i'm debating pocahontas, right? i'm going to get one of those kits. in the middle of the debate when she complains she's of indian heritage because her mother said she has high cheek bones, we will take that little kit and say, we have to do it gently because we're in the me, too generation so we have to be very gentle. and we will very gently take that kit and we will slowly toss it, hoping it doesn't hit her and injure her arm. i will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by trump, if you take the test and it shows

you're an indian. how about that, fbi agents, how about that guy? do you think he likes me? did we catch them in the act. it's a rigged deal, folks. it's a rigged deal. i used to say it, it's a rigged deal. it's a disgrace. 75% of those people are downright dishonest, downright dishonest. they're fake. they're fake. >> ay-ay-ay, where's am melania? trump saved a warm fuzzy for, you guessed it, vladimir putin. >> they're going, will president trump be prepared, you know, president putin is kgb. you know what? putin's fine. he's fine. we're all phi kappa. we're people. will i be prepared? totally prepared. i've been preparing for this stuff my whole life. they don't say that. they don't say that. [ cheers and applause ] >> we are all people. you get that? trump's warm words for his

authoritarian counterpart as white house aides confirm donald trump and vladimir putin will meet one on one with no one other than translators in the room. "the new york times" writing, quote, there's no telling what president trump who absohors lo briefing papers and defies the advice of his advisors will choose to say when he is alone with mr. putin, a prospect that puts aides inside and outside the government on edge. here to help us understand the ties that seem to bind donald trump and vladimir putin, some of our favorite reporters and friends. peter nicolas, white house reporter for the "wall street journal." kimberly atkins, chief whatter washington reporter for the boston harold. frank figliuzzi, and with us at the table jonathan lemire associated press white house reporter and evan mcmullen, former cia operative and former candidate for president as an independent. the rally, even his friends describe that version of donald trump as slightly pathetic, as

someone who is so desperate for attention, so desperate for the cheers and hoots and hollers from the crowd that he puts on a show that really isn't even remotely close to anything presidential. >> yeah, there is a show on comedy central where a guy makes an entire show of impersonating donald trump. that was like president trump impersonating himself. i've done dozens and dozens of these rallies. i was surprised by the me too moment, elizabeth warren, to make a joke about something that is obviously been a ground swell in the last year or so for a lot of people and has meant a lot of people come forward with their stories. also recall this is a president who himself has been accused of sexual assault repeatedly who we heard on the access hollywood tape brag about doing so, who just yesterday, the day of his rally, he made the hire official

of bill shine who previously was at fox news for covering up these exact kind of escapades of sexual harassment. last night that was perhaps the most stunning moment. there were several. >> i saw some polling today that even among women, republican women, his approval number is 20 points lower than his approval rating among republican men. he has 54% approval among men or republican men, 34% approval among women. that plays right into this opportunity to steal women from the independent and republican categories in the mid terms. that has to make people like paul ryan and mitch mcconnell to see that. >> of course, women, suburban women, that is not a hand the republican party wants to be dealt going into this fall's mid terms. you would think donald trump, he had success to a degree in 2016 with that, with republican women, that he would not want to loot any -- he can't afford to hemorrhage any of that support going into his reelection bid. that was the most dramatic

moment. we are just days after a newspaper was shot up in annapolis, maryland and a number of people died. and we took donald trump 24 hours to sort of express his sympathies to the -- personally express his sympathies to the victims and defend the rights of the free press. here we are days later back on his usual fake news attacks. >> kimberly atkins, our viewers can't see you nodding. let me let you weigh in on that. >> jonathan is spot on. we have the president who also is at a place, he's about to appoint his second supreme court justice in his first term. that's something that few presidents get to do. he's about to go to nato and represent the united states there. there are a lot of things for him to be talking about, but you can see he is at his most comfortable place at these rallies doing what he thinks that crowd wants, which is attacks on elizabeth warren which includes not only a joke about the me too movement, but also his favorite racial slur to

hurl at her, and just a lot of jenning up the crowd. it seems when he's in these rooms with these core supporters, they bring out the worst in each other. he resorts to that sort of talk and they shout lock her up. and that's what he likes to do. that's what he's going to focus on and we're going to see a whole lot more of that leading to the mid terms and certainly 2020. >> peter, let me quickly pass along something i heard from a trump ally this morning. he said for a president so publicly and privately obsessed with the size of things, crowds, hands, whatnot, he never misses an opportunity to showcase his smallness. >> well, you have to look at these rallies in some sense as a dramatic acting out of his tweets. >> performance art? i never heard that before, that's great. >> yeah, i think what we're seeing is a dramatic expression of tweets where he's unchained. these are spontaneous. and they keep the audience

riveted. they keep the news media riveted. he may make news at any minute and he often does. and i think that is really a measure for him, a criteria. to jonathan's point, how much calculation is going into when he's at these rallies, how much calculating he's doing about which constituency he's winning or losing as opposed to is the audience engaged are they entertained, is the media enthralled. those are the criteria he considers. >> frank figliuzzi, lest we get lost in the smallness of it all, he had praise for putin. a president who does not get briefed. people don't tell him the russia intelligence developments. we know he does rnn't like to h that. he doesn't read the pdb. it's fair to assume he doesn't read anything on russia unless he's reading braille. he's not hearing anything about

russia. what do you make of the fact that for all the lunacy he said we're all people? >> of all the things he said that we could focus on, that phrase, that comment about putin being kgb, but he's one of us, he's okay, we're all people, that is what i choose to focus on because that's the most disturbing. and i have to tell you, nicolle, an attempt to normalize a stone cold killer like vladimir putin who orders the murders and poisonings of those who he disagrees with is extremely troubling. and this president is about to sit across the table from this man alone and discuss national security matters. and so what troubles me the most here is that we're watching our president become unhinged, imploding in full view of the world, and now negotiating with killers, negotiating with heads of state who he perhaps should

not be sitting down and negotiating with, and that leads me to the conclusion, nicolle, that perhaps the greatest threat facing our national security today is an insider threat. it's the president himself who doesn't get it, doesn't understand what he's up against. >> do you agree with that, evan? >> i do agree with that. i might go further than frank has gone, although i think everything that frank said was correct. but, look, the president is a national security threat. i and frank, we're not the first ones to observe this. this person, this man, this president has a dangerous relationship with one of our primary foreign adversaries, an adversary that is attacking our country, specifically attacking our ability to choose, to select our own leaders. the president, when he does these things -- i would say the whole theme last night is not just a president who is coming unhinged. this is a president who is trying to desensitize us and normalize us to attacks on our

democracy, to attacks on the institutions that protect our liberty, whether it's the press, whether it's the fbi. he does these things not just because he's going crazy. he does these things because he wants to walk his people and the country down this road of -- this road away from liberal democracy or away from open free society. that's what he's doing. and so even when he attacks the me, too movement, that's part of it. we might say normal, normal political leaders would say don't go anywhere near is that because that's dangerous to you. that's not donald trump's approach. donald trump's approach is to attack it head on, trivialize it, and make it a nonissue. he's done that with russia, he's done that with the me too movement, heeds done that with the fbi, he'll do that more ask more again. we think he's being unhinged. we think it sounds crazy, but there is a reason he's doing it. and as you can hear from the applause in that room, it's somewhat effective. >> evan and frank make a good point. it is more than buffoonery. it is a national security risk.

you were telling me you're going to the summit, you're covering that for the a.p. it starts with a meeting that should be the layup, the meeting with nato, that is expected to be more fraught, whereas in the president's mind based on that performance, he views the rendezvous with vladimir putin as the layup. >> the timing of the president's trip to europe next week has unneu unnerved leaders in global cap tald -- capitals. these have been in place for decades. let's recall last year he went to nato. he walked into their faces and up braided them for the cost of the building and for not contributing enough -- >> and refusing to confirm our commitment. >> exactly light. and then let's flash back a few weeks ago at the g7, he up ended that with a series of tweets about justin trudeau.

he goes from nato where i think things will be very tense, to then the united kingdom where there is such expectation of protests there, the white house is largely keeping trump out of london. all of his meetings, almost alma of his meetings will be in the outskirts of town after a weekend of golf in scotland. he then goes to helsinki to meet with putin and recreate the play book he had with kim jong-un where it will start with that one on one meeting and so many european allies are concerned that he's going to have this sort of really tumultuous tense gathering with the leaders in brussels and by the end of it, end up in putin's embrace. and they're afraid of what he might be willing to giveaway without their permission. i >> i would argue he's already in putin's embrace. this is the most dangerous moment of trump's presidency in the aftermath of singapore and the meeting with kim jong-un.

let's watch the president last night on north korea. >> remember, they said, he's too tough! he's going to cause a war! it's too tough! now they say, he's too nice, he's too nice. he's too nice. i got along very well with chairman kim. i got along very well. that's a good thing that i got along well. we signed a wonderful paper saying they're going to denuclearize their whole thing. it's going to all happen. >> all right, frank figliuzzi, i want to put you on the spot. you were the deputy director of the fbi for counter intelligence. donald trump counters many of our intel jenls. if you have that job for another country and you saw that and you were prepping vladimir putin, what would you tell putin to do to make sure donald trump was duped and left the meeting, as jonathan said, in vladimir putin's embrace? >> so, i think it's more of same. i would continue the strategy here. don't -- >> it's working, right? >> exactly. so by that i mean that putin is

going to come into the meeting and say, look, there is a basic understanding here, spoken or unspoken, that you are enamored with me and it may be because you know we've compromised you, it may be for a host of reasons. but we're going to leverage that and we're going to get as much out of this meeting as we possibly can. and the fact that you're in the room alone with me means we are going to agree to things in the spur of the moment that your associates and aides would never allow you to agree with. so there is already a leg up for putin going into this meeting and i'm concerned that coming out of the meeting we will slowly but surely learn of some things that we've given away yet again. >> peter, let me ask you to weigh in on some of the sort of crushing fallout from the gop 4th of july trip to russia where republicans went, not with their democratic counterparts, not with any members of the american media, highly unprecedented for these holiday codels they're

called. they woke up to negative headlines. our friend trent watts tweeted, only a decade ago sought to dee mock ra ties the middle east, only two years after russia interfered in the u.s. election. has donald trump sort of high jacking the republican party started to bear fruit? we know it's complete, obvious from the meetings. is it starting to bear fruit in the preadvance trip, saying all the right things, the russian media comes out, and reads something totally different from what the members say, because there's no american media, there's no recording, no witness to what's actually happened, is this the prelude to the trump summit in helsinki? >> i think the president is looking for some kind of realignment where he's trying to convince the republican party and americans more broadly that russia and vladimir putin are not the boogie man. they are potentially allies and friends. you, canada, mexico, others are in some cases our worst enemies

because of trade practices. this could be a bridge too far for some republicans. polls show the rank and file are standing by the president. in this trip that the republican senators took, they are showing they are trying to get on board with this new trumpian policy, the trumpian approach to russia that i guess will be cemented in helsinki. the proof will be in the puddling ultimately, right? is russia going to continue menacing eastern europe? are they going to continue to interfere in our elections? and if there's no progress on those fronts, you wonder how long republican senators and republican voters nationally going to go along with this. >> frank, lett me give you the last word. trump appoint ease have testified under oath before congress it is absolutely russia's intention to continue to meddle in our elections. admiral rogers, head of the nsa, has testified to that. so have the directors of the fbi and the cia. >> just in the last few days, nicolle, we've heard president trump reverse himself once again

and say that he's not quite sure that the russians agectually di any meddling. he may want this meddling occur, he may need help in the midterms, he may need help if he runs for president again. he may be financially compromised and otherwise. we're going to see this continue and continue until someone stops him. >> you guys always keep me up at night with the things you say at 4:00. peter nicolas, thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, one of donald trump's pitbulls in congress facing new questions about what he knew about abuse allegations when he worked as a college wrestling coach. donald trump weighs in and once again defends a man accused of misconduct. also ahead, what one columnist today describes as donald trump getting caught with his tactical pants down. ew, in the wake of the pruitt resignation. and the kavanagh conundrum. how passing over kavanagh may look to those investigating whether donald trump has obstructed justice in the russia probe.

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these vicious claims about me of inappropriate conduct with women are totally and absolutely false. they're pure fiction and they're outright lies. >> he denies it. look, he denies it. i mean, if you look at what, what is really going on and you look at all the things that have happened over the last 48 hours, he totally denies it. he says it didn't happen and, you know, you have to listen to him also. you're talking about -- he said

40 years ago this did not happen. as you probably know, he says he's innocent and i think you have to remember that. he said very strongly yesterday that he's innocent. so you'll have to talk to him about that. >> donald trump has a dark history of sticking up for the accused. rob porter, roy moore, himself. it seems the president is always the first to point out, well, he says he's innocent. and ohio congressman jim jordan, fierce critic of the justice department and fbi and -- and a former assistant wrestling coach at ohio state university. they have accused him of turneding a blind eye to the team doctor in the mid '90s. telling politico, i never knew of any type of abuse. if i did i would have done something about it. and look, if there are people who are abused then that's terrible and we would want justice to happen. while the university

conducts its own investigation, president trump went ahead and jumped ahead of that process and weighed in aboard air force one yesterday saying of those accusing jordan of turning a blind eye, quote, i don't believe them at all. i believe him. jim jordan is one of the most outstanding people i've met since i've been in washington. i believe him 100%. no question in my mind, i believe jim jordan 100%. he's an outstanding man. the washington post summing it up this way. if past is prologue, trump is really opening himself up by coming to the defense of someone he badly wants to trust. that's especially the case when you're talking about a case involving sexual abuse. jonathan and evan are still here, frank and kim are still with us. let me ask you, jonathan lemire, how a white house who will privately acknowledge that the roy moore chapter wasn't good for them, who will privately acknowledge that they're all in a bit of a vice from a communications standpoint on the me too movement because of the

president being credibly accused by more than a dozen women, how the president gets on air force one and goes to bat for a guy who is still under vegts for his potential role in an abuse scandal? >> because the president doesn't listen to anyone around him. the white house staff wants nothing to do with this story. they don't need him -- >> this is now a white house story. it wasn't 24 hours ago. it now is. >> they didn't want him to go out and front of this. he did that on his own. they would much prefer to issue a statement. the statement is ongoing, we'll comment down the road. that's not how this president works. he leaps to the defense of his allies, people he has chosen to support or more importantly who support him. they will back him and therefore he thinks they must be good people. this couldn't have happened. and let's remember the one person who didn't get the benefit of the doubt, al franch en. trump was very quick to believe those allegations were credible and franken should go. but when they're republicans,

they have an r by their name or the president himself, they get the benefit of the doubt. >> since we started this conversation, there is a 5th accuser confirmed who says that jim jordan knew about it. frank figliuzzi, you said something on this show that stuck in my brain because i never heard you say it before. you called the questioning by house republicans a disgrace of deputy attorney general rod rosenstein on the day they did their damned est to annihilate the credibility of the justice department in their handling of the russia investigation. i wonder what you make of jim jordan not sort of pushing back on a theory that perhaps this was somehow politically motivated because of his aggressive and i agree with you, disgraceful questioning of the attorney general? >> so, look, organized crime family members take an oath, blood oath to protect each other at all cost. never give each other up and they'll go down together. essentially the congressman is part of that trump organized crime family.

the president is on dangerous ground when he's not listening to the facts. he doesn't care about the facts. he doesn't want to wait for the investigation to end. he's going to toss it in and toss his lot in with the congressman and immediately say, i believe him 100%. they're going to go down together. we need to wait and see what the facts are. but this kind of symbiotic relationship where i need you, you need me, we'll protect each other, we've got each other's back, we're part of the goodell old boy network, that's what we're seeing play out here. >> and the facts are as we are learning them, they do not look good for the congressman. and of course the rest of us will wait for the investigation to be complete. let me share with you, frank, some of the other reporting that we have at nbc, one of the wrestlers sean daily said he was groped half a dozen times by dr. richard strauss. the doctor for the wrestling team in the mid 90s. when jordan was the assistant wrestling coach. he was too embarrassed to report it to jordan at the time.

jordan took part in the conversations where strauss's abuse and other team members came up. it would be wildly out of the range of normal for an assistant coach not to be part of conversations about the conduct of a team doctor. i mean, you know, my broo they are -- brother and sisters play college sports. those are small traveling units not just hear things that affect the team, but everyone's personal lives. it seems as an investigator, these would be credible accounts. >> there is a growing body of evidence here, as you said, even one more today as we are speaking, with too many details, too many people, too many details. we've seen this eerily play out before just recently, usa gymnastics, penn state university, when you have this combination of facts, you have to get very, very concerned. and as you said, an assistant coach engaging in discussion with this, with multiple wrestlers saying that they all had talked about this in locker room settings with him, he's --

the team doctor is there doing this, they know about it, they're talking about it, nothing is done. he's going to have to come out and defend himself. the investigation has to be thorough. but the president has made a mistake here intact kelley siding with jordan too early. >> kim, let me put two pieces of information together and ask you to weigh in. the president yesterday, as jonathan said, disparaging, belittling the me too movement, standing by roy moore, him being a pedophile, girls 12 and 13 accusing him of sexual misconduct. the president accused. rob porter who was accused of spousal abuse by two former wives. where are we that men like bill cosby can be held to account for decades of their crimes, where jerry sandusky is ultimately taken down, where the gymnastics scandal is ultimately disinfected by transparency, but the president of the united

states, the most powerful man in this country, takes the back of a man who is a wrestling coach is accused of knowing of sexual misconduct? >> right. when he could say exactly what you just said a moment ago, he could easily say this is an investigation, let's let it play itself out and he could say nothing more. but instead he's doubling down in his support. you can't even say that this is purely a political calculation. this is clearly something that the president deeply believes, deeply has an affinity for other people who have been accused of things that they deny, despite as you said, reliable evidence, good believable evidence that something nefarious is going on. if it were a political calculation, he would have changed course after roy moore, right? he doubled down on roy moore and he lost. a normal person would say, even if they were willing to take that risk, would say, that was a bad idea, i'm not going to do it again. and he has done it again. he has done it again and again. >> and again and again. all right. when we come back, the pruitt effect. the latest fall out over the

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scott pruitt's resignation from the epa kicked off the second season of survivor as illustrated in this new york post cover. one of our favorites. pruitt held onto his position longer than other scandal ridden. both pruitt served an important function in this white house. i do hope we give him proper credit for that. it fell to him to embody the entire trump ethos. grab what you can, exploit your status. lift nepotism to an art form. never buy coach. all in one high ranking official. so how did pruitt last more than 500 days despite nearly weekly scandals? dana mel bank in the washington post writes this. quote, while the media and the democrats were getting all worked up about the mattress and

the lotion and the chick-fil-a and disneyland and the phone booth and the bullet proof seats and the rest of pruitt's penny anti corruption little attention was going to the emoluments which are of much greater value. ivanka trump's trademarks and jared kushner's investors in foreign governments pumping millions into trump properties. now pruitt is gone and trump is about to be caught with his tactical pants down. evan? >> well, i think there are tua expects of this that i'd like to point out. number one is that in pruitt you sort of see -- you sort of see a mini trump. so with trump, a lot of conservatives, not me of course, others made the decision we were going to trade certain policy objectives for -- we were going to excuse some corruption, potential alignment with russia and we were going to get what we wanted on the supreme court and elsewhere. in pruitt you see the same sort ever thi of thing. he promised to deliver and did deliver trade in the epa. he was a little corrupt,

republicans admit he may have done things that were not quite right. >> he's under 13 investigations. he may have committed crimes. >> that's right. but the point is that is the trade that the party is making -- >> i'm sorry, the republican party sucks but you can still find non-criminal republicans. >> absolutely you can. >> maybe. >> no, i think you can. but this is what's happening. the other thing is that i think trump kept pruitt around not only because he distracted the media and the democrats, but because, i come back to the topic of dee sensitization. you hear every week something new pruitt was doing. after awhile a certain portion of the population, especially among trump's base is going to start to say, you know what, again, going back to the trade, does it matter so much, as long as we get what we want, can't we just allow pruitt and trump and these others to get what they want? that's the trade. that's what's happening here. that's the path we're being led down. >> frank, jump in here on what we were commenting about jim

jordan. the president and his friends in congress are a mob family, then the president and his cabinet are a mob marriage. this is husband and wife. the president and his cabinet, there is a direct line between the trump family and the kushner family's sort of glaring lack of concern about ethics and gaining financially from their positions of power and the conduct of the cabinet. is it chicken and egg or is that what you see when you look at organized crime families and this kind of conduct? >> so, first, evan got it right on the nose, which is that we're seeing the embodiment of philosophy shared by the group, the end justifies the means. as long as we are pliaccomplish our targeted objectives our base wants done, we're going to plow through any ethics or integrity concerns anyone has. it's birds of a feather flock together, we'll protect each other, we cover each other. you get the job done and perform for me. i take care of you and we're

seeing that at its fullest in pruitt. and now i want to know the inside story here. who told pruitt and how that it was time to go? was it pruitt on his own volition? was it others? if someone actually dictated that he had to go, we need to know that story because we need to applaud and celebrate that rare occurrence that somebody said, enough, you need to go. >> jonathan, it's my understanding no one said enough. it was about bad p.r. >> it was death by a thousand cuts. it was no particular breaking point here. >> certainly not on the ethical front, on the p.r. front maybe. >> the president finally got tired of the headlines more than anything else. he just was -- he actually applauds the work he has done at the epa. >> he doesn't care about the ethical stuff. >> he thinks he's one of his most effective cabinet members. he was getting stuff done. he thought the charges were overblown, it was a media witch hunt much too much was being made of this. >> laura ingraham started attacking him. >> that did tip the scales. certainly his chief of staff had

been advocating for pruitt to be out. staff was. that played a role. eventually trump was there is too much with this guy. >> i want to read some of your piece. you did an amazing piece being in a trump cabinet. what has angered trump more than the substance of the scandals is the bad image they produce. according to white house officials and advisors. the president complained to confidant more of his cabinet members weren't good on tv. he fumd at the ethical question surrounding pruitt, zenke and hud head -- is ben carson still there? we haven't heard from him in a while. we'll look for that next week. he wad only seeing his cabinet on tv for scandals and not fulfilling campaign promises. give us the brackets. you have pompeo in the highly functional cabinet member. everyone else is in subsets. >> pompeo and mattis, mattis's influence is starting to wane.

he didn't want the space -- >> or john bolton. >> two keys to become an effective cabinet member our reporting finds. one to be able to manage him, to tilt him to the outcome you want without him getting upset with you, without him thinking you're lecturing him or looking down on him, something rex tillerson never mastered. obviously praising him repeatedly like steve mnuchin. >> being rich, that helps. he likes rich guys. >> and the other idea is being able to promote him, to be in that cabinet meeting that we see dear leader type meetings and sing his praises, but be on television and be an advocate. that hasn't been happening. he was upset when wilbur rots went on tv with the soup can. the prop was old and mundane. he's concerned about public imagery and concerned about selling the president's accomplishments. >> he's selling condos. after the break, donald trump's

kavanagh conundrum. if he passes up the front runner for supreme court, could he show his hand whether he's concerned about the obstruction of justice investigation into himself? we'll bring you new reporting and put the question to our panel. - i love my grandma. - anncr: as you grow older, your brain naturally begins to change which may cause trouble with recall. - learning from him is great... when i can keep up! - anncr: thankfully, prevagen helps your brain and improves memory. - dad's got all the answers. - anncr: prevagen is now the number-one-selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide.

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gentlemen, i have just received word! the louisiana purchase, is complete! instant purchase notifications from capital one . technology this helpful... could make history. what's in your wallet? as you know, there is now a vacancy on the supreme court. [ cheers and applause ] and if you tune in monday at 9:00, i think you're going to be extremely happy with the selection, right? and they're all great. they're all great. >> he is always plugging a time slot. good lord. all right. they're all great, but could one choice actually pose a greater threat to the president than the others? brand-new reporting in "the new york times" today lays bare donald trump's kavanagh conundrum. judge brett kavanagh widely reported to be the front runner once argued that a president could be impeached for lying. the reporting from today's "the new york times" details

kavanagh's role in the independent counsel investigation conducted by ken starr into president clinton. quote, he once argued that president bill clinton could be impeached for lying to his staff and misleading the public. a broad definition of obstruction of justice that would be damaging if applied to president trump in the russia investigation. but now trump passes over kavanagh, could the decision itself suggest that he's worried about what would happen if he were held to that standard? if he could be impeached for lying to his staff and misleading the public, the trump tower cover up suddenly looks more ominous to this president. the panel is back to help us understand the stake for the president and for the mueller investigation if trump picks after today's news and if he rejects kavanagh. frank, you and i have been talking since this supreme court vacancy. it feels like 11 weeks ago, but it was only a few days ago. since the seat opened up about the potential cases that could end up before the united states supreme court involving the mueller investigation, questions whether or not you can indict a president, questions about

obstruction of justice, questions whether you can subpoena a president. it seems like this was put out there perhaps to maybe give the president pause. but it seems like there is equal peril in passing him over and maybe showing your hands in terms of your degree of concern about the obstruction of justice investigation itself. >> so, this is going to be one of the biggest decisions the president ever makes, as any president ever makes. this is going to be personal for the president. what we're going to see happen here is he's going to pick the most personally expedient choice that he can, but there is a dilemma as you said because kavanagh, there's two separate conflicting issues here. one is he's come out with this research or these statements that seem to say, you can be impeached under these circumstances and so that seems to sway the president against selecting him. but in the same of vein kavanagh has previously come out with regard to impeachment -- yeah, with regard to criminal charges and said, no, we can't -- we shouldn't be filing criminal charges against a sitting

president. so you have impeachment and you have criminal charges. so if the president thinks he's going to be impeached, he likely won't go with kavanagh. if he thinks he's facing criminal charges as well, had he will go with kavanagh. you can't predict what a supreme court justice is going to do, but he must be tied up in knots on this right now. >> kimberly, your thoughts. >> it's the same from the beginning. if he did work for kenneth starr with that independent counsel investigation, was a double edge sword just for the reasons that frank pointed out. he was somebody obviously who believes in the ability of an independent counsel to do his or her job so that cuts against the president's constant messaging that the special counsel investigation that's going on into him is some -- is nefarious in some way. also don't forget that kavanagh is the chief author of the starr report, which is filled with all sorts of salacious sexual details about bill clinton which on the one hand trump may be happy to talk about, but on the

other hand it brings more attention to his own issues in that era -- in that area. so there are a lot of conflicting things that will come out in a confirmation hearing that the president may like a lot and other things he may not like at all. >> in usa reporting this afternoon? >> what's striking, the roll out of supreme court justice gorsuch was something this white house did really well. for white house staff that has faced a lot of dysfunction and tripped over its own feet mostly caused by the president himself, that is something they held close to the vest. they were able to do so in secret. >> to be fair, the president was involved in the process. it was run by the white house counsel's office. the president was read in at the end of the process. >> which perhaps prevent it had from leaking. that's something they were very happy with and there is internal there is pressure to do that again. they really want to get this choice right. >> and kavanagh is mcgahn's pick. >> they want this to go really well in this primetime setting monday night before he goes

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i've spoken of a thousand points of light, of all the community organizations that are spread like stars throughout the nation doing good. we will work hand in hand, encouraging, sometimes leading,

sometimes being led. >> you know all the things you see here, the thousand points of light. what the hell was that, by the way? what did that mean? i know one thing, make america great again we understand. putting america first, we understand. thousand points of light, i never quite got that one. what the hell is that? has anyone ever figured that out? and it was put out by a republican, wasn't it. >> i'm sorry, it's called decency and you wouldn't recognize it if it spoke russian. that was donald trump bashing the 41st president of the united states of america for his charity. >> that's right. it is not a surprise that donald trump doesn't understand what points of light might mean. light, of course, being a symbol of truth and of goodness. but that's exactly what he's attacking here. that's what trump is attacking. he's attacking goodness. why is he doing that? he's doing that because he doesn't want to be held accountable for his depravity.

he needs a situation, a world where he's rewarded for that. the other thing that i think is worth watching very closely is that the president in doing this is attacking a symbol of republican past. i would say one that republicans should be proud of, president bush. >> a democratic president awarded george h.w. bush the presidential medal of freedom so i think the 41st president at this point is held in high regard by people of both parties. >> president trump has attacked people held in high regard by the party before. he attacked mccain last night. he had done it before. he attacked mitt romney, the party's nominee, one time. to attack a former republican president that way is something different. and what i think we need to watch is what the reaction of his base is. now, if you watch that clip again, you'll notice that the crowd doesn't really give him the same applause that it normally does. but over time, i think that

trump will want to disassociate the party from its past leaders that it respected, even reagan. and he will do that to complete his taking control of the party. that will be a scary thing, but it's something to watch. he's not quite there yet but he's moving in that direction. >> and i think this is where he outfoxes fox. the 41st president was close for a period of years with roger ailes. now late and extremely polarizing and controversial head of fox news. but trump is grosser than even some of his closest allies on the far right and fringy right media. >> that's right. is there any reason to suspect they won't go with him? >> i don't know. i'd be surprised tonight if sean hannity defends the attacks on the 41st president's charity. >> sure. but i'd be actually surprised if he condemns them. he'll probably just let them go. it's a call to service, that's what the thousand points of light is. >> let us know where you stand, sean. tweet me, text me.

air another clip tonight. i love it when you do that. >> this president looked at it for two reasons. as you said to disassociating the republican's party from itself. george herbert walker bush did not support him in 2016. but also he sees it as branding. that to me is the base instinct. that's my slogan. any other slogan, not as good. >> any other charity or act of kindness not good. last word to you, kimberly atkins. >> i think jonathan is right. i think the biggest thing here is that the bushes did not support trump. trump remembers that. he remembers that lack of support. whereas you've seen historically bill clinton and george h.w. bush work together or barack obama sit with george w. bush. you won't see that sort of respect given from one president to another in this sense. >> i saw melania trump sit with all the former presidents and she looked really happy. we have to sneak in a break, don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. we have a short amount of time to get our patient

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about the colonial penn program. here to tell you if you're age 50 to 85 and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i just turned 80. what's my price? $9.95 a month for you, too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the number one most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions.

your acceptance is guaranteed, and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock, so your rate can never go up for any reason. and with this plan, you can pick your payment date, so you can time your premium due date to work with your budget. so call now for free information. and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner, and it's yours just for calling. so call now. by staying in rhythm. and to keep up this pace, i drink boost optimum. boost optimum with 5 in 1 advanced nutrition helps support muscle, energy, bone, normal immune function, and vision. boost optimum. be up for life. my thanks to frank figluzzi,

kimberly atkins, jonathan lemire. "mtp daily" starts right now. hi, chuck. >> hi, nicolle. happy friday. >> happy friday. >> if it's friday, what's the president's breaking point? tonight, under pressure. president trump backs down on his steadfast support of scott pruitt. so what's the key to get the president to cave on anything else? plus shine on. how former fox news exec bill shine is changing the white house. and reunification delay. why many families separated at the border may be spending even more time apart. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. good evening, i'm chuck todd here in washington.