we want everyone to work safely and come home safely. i live right here in auburn, i absolutely love this community. once i moved here i didn't want to live anywhere else. i love that people in this community are willing to come together to make a difference for other people's lives. together, we're building a better california. . >> thanks for staying with us. we are going to start this hour with the president's new game plan for the mueller investigation. nbc news learned that trump lawyer, rudy giuliani wants to see evidence linking the president to collugz or obstruction before a sit-down with investigators. mueller has agreed not to ask about michael cohen, in any potential interview with trump.

moments ago. trump tweeted this it public opinion has turned strongly against the rigged witch hunt. as this, as trump prepares to meet with valdimir putin. we have had news on russia, clear that president, although he is in thinking about this very investigation. >> it appears his outside legal team is running a four corners offense here, trying to run out the clock and stall whatever the motivation is, a switch to a more aggressive switch to the president's team of lawyers for the most part corporated, even as the president attacked it rudy giuliani, reported by "the new york times." is drawing a line in the sand.

mueller may need to meet certain conditions before the president would agree to an interview regarding the russia having. mr. mueller would have to demonstrate that president committed a crime, and that his testimony is essential to the investigation. the reason for that, the legal team is arguing that the legal team has all the information they have. they say it is already available to investigation. the president's lawyers are acthinking it could lead to a subpoena fight. it would seem that mueller doesn't want to risk bringing a subpoena against a sitting president as to what could be a criminal proceeding. as for the president voluntarily going for the interview is looking less and less likely,

richard. >> reporting in the giuliani discussion, about his former fixer, michael cohen, what did we learn? . giuliani said the special counsel agreed to avoid questions involving cohen. the cohen has been moved into the southern district of new york. it is looking into cohen's business dealings. we don't know exactly what the special council may or may not do. this is what rudy giuliani is saying about the special council motivation. he said his goal and motivation is to under cut the special council investigation, on the part of his client, the president. richard. >> at the white house, jeff bennett. now, to the former u.s. attorney, and former director

for counter intelligence with us. >> frank, what are you seeing? you heard the reporting, that jeff bennett gave us, from your sources, on this very topic, is this a shift? why now? >> it is a shift. giuliani and the defense team are trying to move the goal posts it is clear from the defense lawyers i have heard from, no really anybody under investigation wants to sit down with a prosecutor. a prosecutor is not there to help you. they are there, in those questions, they want to find out what you know to help their case. they want to find out if they can find out if there is perjury involved. this is a strong tactic, they are playing hardball. giuliani is playing hardball.

mueller is hardball. this could potentially go higher up to the supreme court. >> which is another conversation we willville later this hour. the democrats are making regarding this. joyce, when we look at this change and the wording coming out from rudy giuliani. >> i think it is important to remember, this information that comes from the mueller or special council's office. this is clearly rudy giuliani's spin. he put out this to perhaps distract fraother news stories, perhaps to put his own story out there. this is not bob mueller saying that he decided to issue a subpoena to the president.

in some ways, it is ridiculous for giuliani to put this out there. when you think about the substance, it is as throw a drug dealers' lawyer said, we will only agree to be interviewed, if you tell us what your evidence is, and if you are objective. we wouldn't let anybody else get away with this. the president is not above the law. his lawyers shouldn't be able to do this either. >> what do you take away from this? >> first, joyce is on the money here. giuliani has not said anything that has come out to be true. it is spin, for the court of public opinion. for people to understand legally what has been asked by the president is imagine playing poker against someone. it is your turn to place a bet. if you show me all your cards, i will make my wager that is what is going on here. trump wants to see all the cards. the criminal discovery process

doesn't start before the first interview happens. if this is accurate, we may be headed toward a subpoena. what i am fascinated by, both sides of this need this interview to happen in some way, mueller in terms of the court of public opinion needs it to happen more. trump is going to run around and say, i never had a chance to tell me story. they wouldn't let me tell my side of the story, we will hear that for months on end. at some point, mueller will pull the trigger and call his bluff. >> who do you think, franco, which side, who needs it more, the interview with the president? >> it is interesting to me, mueller is eager to speak with the president. president trump could he said that repeatedly to us in the press corps, obviously, his lawyers are telling him no, no, we don't want to put you in that

type of vulnerable situation. it would be tough for trump not to do it, how public he he is willing and wants to. >> joyce, moving on to the other piece of information that jeff bentet was reporting on, michael cohen, in that rudy giuliani has agreed not to interview or address that issue. we know that don't we? >> we think that that is where this is headed. it is obviously been spun off to southern district of new york. i would caution, this is rudy giuliani's version of the facts. his statements have not been reality. you don't know as a prosecutor what will come up during an

interview with a target or subject of an investigation. you need to have the flexibility to discuss anything that turns out to be relevant. we will have to see if this is really coming from special council. >> where are we in this investigation? >> we are at a critical point. the clock is running out in terms of the public tolerance of this congressional tolerance of this it mueller is mindful of that at some point soon, we are going to see a fish or cut bait approach from mueller regarding this interview. what we also have up against us is the mid term elecs, mueller is aware of that as well. we may see a piece meal approach, a part of the case and results are reported prior to the mid term, on the obstruction of justice charges, on the russian collugz, financial issues and compromise, may be handled after that at some point, we will see a demand for an interview take place.

>> appreciate your time. >> still ahead. north korea, how it affects reaching a nuclear deal. you're going... we're right there with you. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. don't live life without it. alright guys let's go! let's do this directions to the greek theater (beep) ♪can i get a connection? ♪can i get can i get a connection?♪ ♪can i get a connection?

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north korean officials slamming the u.s., accusing washington to put pressure on the country to give up nuclear weapons. calling the last 48 hours of

talks regrettable and troubling. >> we had many hours of complicated conversations, we made progress, some great deal of progress, still more work to be done. >> i am joined by the current affairs analyst. he participated in the six party talks with north korea. and kathy gillson, and frank. >> victor, have you seen this more than all of us sitting here, the language play. the pr debate, if you will, back and forth. how do you read through and summarize what we saw happening

in the read out between the united states and north korea. >> what we saw was the secretary trying to put lipstick on a pig. he has two days of what sounds like not very good discussions, where they tried to make progress on some of the issues laid out in the june 12th summit between trump and the north korean leader, they haven't made progress. there is not a progress of another meeting. more working meetings, the working level meetings have not produced anything. that is why there was a third meet thanksgiving week. mia returns, something else promised by the north koreans, there are more meetings scheduled probably next week at the working level. i know the hold up there is that north korean wants to paid for 200 sets of remain, that is what

they wanted in the past. the north koreans are playing from the same play book, 10 years ago. calling demands unreasonable, aggressive, signs of agreg. to think that we sent the american president to singapore, and the north koreans are coming back with the same play book from 10 years ago. not encouraging at all. >> was it the approach from the read out, what you are writing is that united states came in to singapore with a smaller play book? now as they try to decrease the ask, they are finding it is not sticking so much. is that the read-out or something else? >> i think that the explicit goal of the secretary's trip, was to hammer out detail to improve on this sort of vague

commitment that trump extracted during the summit. what is striking, the north koreans and the americans seem to be talking about in joint statements committed to denuclearation. what the north koreans mean, is not what trump means. >> two read outs, that we have seen. >> over previous admin strags, is complete, irreversible disarm disarmorment. despite denials from the state department. you have seen them not use that language, what they are talking about now, is fully verified disarmorment, sounds like a concussion, even though the state said they are not softening their demands.

>> the reason why it is not, the north koreans didn't like the use of those words. it reminded them of earlier times that victor was alluding to during negotiations. >> this goes beyond the that fact that we never had a meeting of the minds. that is clear. now, into a dangerous period, richard. what concerns me is the spin we will get coming out of the white house. it will arm the president publicly from a reputational standpoint, if it becomes clear that north koreans are enhancing their nuclear program, and never intended to denuclearize. we are not going to get the truth, there will be a political spin on this. everybody is okay, we are making progress, nothing to see here, move along. it is a dangerous thing when

talking about north korea. >> now, shoe on the other foot to kim jong-un before singapore and now today. >> i don't think that north koreans are feeling any pressure, i think they know the pressure is on the secretary, and trump agreed to suspend exercises, ufg. meanwhile, the north koreans are doing well. the south koreans are planning family reunions, sports delegations, the chinese are lifting bilateral sanctions, the pinch they were feeling in 2017 and 2018 is starting to dissipate. the north koreans feel they are in a good position. we need to go back to the chinese and tell them, put the

pressure back on. we can't give up alliance equities, we can't promise to start pulling troops from the peninsula as a way to entice the north koreans, that would be bad. >> kathy, what might be the scenario where kim jong-un returns to north korea, and gets feedback from the military infrastructure, therefore, he is tightening the screws now. >> i am with victor, i think that kim is in a good position. i think one of the defenses of trump in his preaches toward negotiating with kim jong-un. what strikes me is more likely as driving kim to the table is the fact that in his view, as he

stated publicly, he completed his nuclear program. he is operating from a position of strength. at no point, has there been any proof he dismantled his nuclear infrastructure. intelligence showing he is expanding, he granted gave the united states back three hostages, he has been repatrioted any remains, i think he is sitting pretty. >> potentially, kim jong-un. remember this leading up to the g-7, and the nato meeting, this story line was coming through. what might it mean as he sits in front of other nato leaders and after that meeting with vladimir putin? >> so, he is alienated our allies, he is in a position

where he needs allies to help out here. he is in a position where he should not have polarized our allies, it is reasons like this, in negotiating with north korea, showing a unified front, he needs friends in the world this. is an opportunity to come together and ask for help. he needs to listen to their counsel. whether or not he is capable of that remains to be seen. >> how much does the united states need nato in this process you have been through for so many years with north korea? what is the dependency willful there? >> it is important politically, it is a meeting of the nato leaders, strong statement from the group needing north korea to denuclearize. they are complying with the 10

un security council resolution says, it is a good platform, the president i am afraid is not going to use it in that fashion. >> thank you, have a good saturday. >> turning now to afghanistan, a u.s. soldier was killed, two others wounded in what the military is calling an insider attack. officials with the nato-lead coalition, the two wounded soldiers are stable and receiving medical care. the name of the deceased service member is not released pending the notification of the family. the show down for top picks for the show down for top picks for supreme court justice.

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as you know, there is now a vacancy on the supreme court. and if you turn in monday at 9:00, you will be extremely happy with the selection. >> okay, that means we are just a couple of days away, according toot president there. the president's planning to make a public announcement of his pick for the supreme court. the short list, believed to be

these four names. also on that list, amy coney barrett, and the runner up last year, when president trump chose. bring in the panel. >> a lot of focus there, so far, on cavanaugh, on both sides, what is your read out? >> well, i moon, all of these candidates are extremely conservative. the debate in conservative circles is how conservative this

person would be on the supreme court. it may not be about their ideology, it may be more about how aggressively they will rule from the bench. some conservatives are upset with chief justice roberts that voted to uphold obama care, a conservative vote on pretty much every issue. >> scanning through, at the time here, lawrence, what is the piece of information that you are watching of all four that we should take note of. since this is your beat? >> well, one thing about connie-barrett, she has been on the court for a while. she doesn't have a long record on the bench. whereas the three others are long-term appeal court judges, they have long judicial record that is people can look at. and you can see through studying their opinions, there is not much to tell between them. they are all solid conservatives

within that main stream -- not main stream, necessarily, the conservative view of what judges should be like. it comes down to, like i said, the personality of those judges, and what the president is looking for in them. >> tina, of the four, as democrats, in the senate, are gearing up, what is the argument they are going to make against any one of these four, most all of them conservative picks, if they were to be picked. >> all four of them are conservative picks, and definite ly not acceptable in regards to overturning or further restricting precedence on rose versus wade and what -- to go on

lawrence's point, i think there is concern, he is a washington gop-established guy. he came in and work wide both bushes on a lot of work that he could be in line with a david suitor, someone who was appointed by bush, the first bush, and ended up siding more with the liberal court. i think the social conservative favorites are going to be amy, definitely, she is younger, i hear some interest in kep lage as well. from the democratic perspective, none of these folks are acceptable by the standards of what we are looking for. >> as you look through the list, you are a watcher of this presidency. it has been said before, he will play one way, then, come the announcement surprise. he has done it before. this will be a prime time announcement.

so we are hearing. >> i am waiting for him to give someone a rose. >> who might be out of the box. do you think these are the four? >> i would have to say, it is. because of the way it has been handled by the white house chief counsel, who is leading this down the road. i think this may be the only time the president will be traditional. cavanaugh, the only thing interesting for cavanaugh for me is that if the president really wants to get 50 votes from the republican, all 50, john mccain will not be there, he is recovering from brain cancer, or not recovering, dealing with it. to get susan collins, he would have to go cavan aaugh.

>> does it mean that non-c non-cavanaugh pick. >> there is a picture of him fishing with justice, they are friends, and he has a fairly modest background, he would fit that mark. he doesn't have that inside washington background, that cavanaugh has. they may help him get through the center. >> build on this. i wanted to add to this. as we look at what some

democrats are doing, pushing for it on the russia investigation saying, look, you need to pick a non-from these groups, don't pick from these four, the russia investigation could reach the supreme court, you need someone who will be understanding, if you will of that process. >> absolutely. if democrats had their pick, it would be garland, the nominee from before the 2016 elections. all of the justices, to build on possible folks who could be justices, i think one of the things we should be looking at is someone who will sound like a strict constitutionalist. that is something that conservatives, supportive of trump, and who are interested in the supreme court, are going to be interested in.

one of the interesting things i remember reading that kepledge said in the last couple of years, he would not dismantle anything that he personally didn't like, he would look to uphold precedent, hinting that is where he would look. that is not something a strict constitutionalist that is lionnized in the judicious movement. >> i am interested in that heartland thematical. we have seen the president in the last week, where he was speaking. he has gone back to that. that very idea. >> well, i think more than anything, as we have spent days and hours, reading decisions and trying to figure out who he is going to go with. a lot of this he will stay on that list, will be on his gut, who he thinks will have his back when it comes to the president, he makes decisions on what is good for me. he is not looking toward a

legacy. he is looking, if the mueller investigation happens, if things go to the supreme court, who will most likely have my back? that is the final decision. look at everything. it will come down to who does the president think will be more on his side. >> that is interesting, throw it over to lawrence. do you think the president made his decision who is in the inner circle he is listening to on this decision? >> i think he has. mcgan had a strong say as he did with justice gorstitch. in his knees. and these justices, the nominees.

coming up. china retaliates with 34 billion in tar rives, why some u.s. farmers expected to be hit the hardest by a potential trade conflict. they are not back away from their support of president trump, nevertheless.

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i respect china, and i respect president, but they have been killing us. 507 billion in trade deficits. you want to do something about it, you get attacked. that is not nice. that is not free trade. >> president trump said trade wars are easy to win and a good thing. 56% of americans believe it will be bad for u.s. jobs. 73% believes it will be bad for products. friday morning, yesterday, beijing retaliate wide tariffs of his own. trump said he may escalate trade back and forth even more. allan smith.

>> the words, i will get to your reporting, the words are thrown around a lot, as you know, trade war. we are not in a trade war, not yet. >> we have tariffs and counter tariffs, there is a bit of war of words. they are going into effective. they are being inspected more heavily a boat trying to deliver goods, china trying to beat the deadline. this is real, it is right here. >> a small percentage of the economy. allan, trade war or not? >> it is a skirmish, it doesn't seem to be letting up soon. this is one area president trump has been the most consistent. before he was a candidate, he was railing against u.s. trade policies, he wanted to do something on this so badly. chin ark the european union, they will be retailiating, for every retaliation, trump will seemingly want to make a move

back in return. the counter moves haven't stopped yet. and these latest wave of tariffos china, some of the biggest maneuvering on trade yet that president and china have done. >> all said, the u.s. chamber of commerce doing a new analysis, and the head of the present coe saying the tariffs are taking a toll on american business, farmers and consumers. talk about farmers, specifically. there is a new piece on nbc news, ben wrote it vuspoken in three different states in the heartland to farmers across the land. this is affecting them. what are they telling you? >> they are telling me that this is kind of short term pain for long-term gain. they are hoping for a quick resolution to this trade war. they recognize there is going to be pain. one of them said to me, there

are some small family farms that will go out of business because of this. it is a thin margin business. they may have blown out for them. >> there is a bit of a shaking of the tree effect as they call it where the little guys get stripped out. we will see, consolidation, and hit the smaller guys more. people who have more capital, able to invest in technology and varieties, they will do better. >> allan, what do you make of his reporting, what he found out, they are still going to support president trump, despite it hurting their ability to go out and buy a gallon of milk. >> this is fascinating, if you look at the products targeted by china, in a similar tariffs by the european union. they wanted to go after the

voters, products made in the purple swing states. to make an impact on voters, these trade policies are not going to be good for you. if you read the report, they acknowledge the policies may have short term pain. they are willing to let it play out and see what comes of it. >> ben, what did you find to be most resinate in your mind in terms of the conversation you had with one of those farmers, the good folks of the heartland of america. >> i was struck by the idea that this pain for gain. they were willing to take this sort of bad medicine and they thought it would work out for them in the long run. >> one of the folks you spoke with. >> a great remark said by steven dietrich, outside plymouth, wisconsin. he said, a warning for trump. sometimes, people hit back after

you bloody their nose. there is a recognition that this trade war and the tactics, they are businessmen, they see trump as a businessman. he is not doing business the way they would. it may not be helping the situation. he may have blown a crucial bargaining trip, going to the ace in the hole tariffs, we skipped the negotiation, threw over the table in order to get people to come to it. people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. they have never done business at that level before. the idea that they believe in trump as an effective businessman is surprising to me. >> the bloody nose. when we look at it michigan, well as well pennsylvania, wisconsin, the three states that were clearly swing states in the last election. we are talking about 5% of the goods exported.

4.4% in pennsylvania, 3.8%. small percentages of the state experts, are we close to the bloodied nose yet? what is at stake for democrats and republicans. >> trump won the states by small margins, 3.8%. that is greater than the margin he was winning the states at. trump needs to make a deal on this. if bee are going to go back and forth with tariffs, consistently over the next few months, some of the voters and farmers may not stay with him in the long run. >> it is early. november. so, what are you hearing, democrats, when it comes to the house? or republicans, where they did before, maybe? any reflections on that? >> wasn't willing to say that they were going to wait and see. decision time is going to hit when it is harvest time. spring time.

they got their contracks sold for 2018. that is where they will have to re-evaluate. pit their pocket books against the president's policies. >> close to vest. we saw it in the last election as well. typical of many of the cities there, in the midwest. stick to my knitting. fascinating conversation on this topic. still ahead. trapped under ground, the rescue of a thailand soccer team. a live report, next. directions to the greek theater. (beep) ♪can i get a connection? ♪can i get can i get a connection?♪ ♪ohhh can i get a connection? ♪trying find the old me

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still no solution as of yet in thailand on how to get a youth soccer team and their coach out of a cave where they have been trapped for more than 15 days. it's all at a critical stage as oxygen, as they measure it in those caves, they're running low and heavy rains remain a persistent threat as well. the children are between the ages of 11 and 16 and rescuers would need to help the boys navigate the nearly three-mile trek to get out. you see it right there. it includes at least one section filled with water 16 feet deep and about 100 feet across. nbc's janis mackey frayer has been covering it for us. you're right on location for us

there. we talked about it last hour, very interesting here, the idea of using water displacement, basically pushing the water out so there's more air pockets so the kids can get out. it's an elon musk idea, right? >> it is. it looks like they're going to give this technology a try. effectively what they do, they put this canvas tunnel into the existing tunnel here and they full it with air. the idea is that the air would push the water out. there's compression, they have air locks and it could create a space where they could try to get the kids out or at the very least get supplies in. so it's one of the options that's being explored. there are not many other options here. they have been trying to drill to release more water to create a second overflow. millions of gallons of water have already been pumped out but the water levels are still quite high in the places where they need to have them lower. the idea is that if they can

just get the water level low enough where the kids would be able to just have their chins on the surface, then they would be able to for the most part keep their heads above water. it's this idea that the kids are going to have to dive through these very tight spaces, kids who can't swim, kids who have been practicing with these full face masks so that they'll be able to breathe, they'll be tethered to divers, but once they get into the water, the divers i've been talking to here, they just don't know how the kids are going to react. >> we're looking at the animation that was created by nbc news and you can see how long and far they have to go there, janis. how many hours is expected? four or five hours, and for what amount of time would they be subjected to be -- required to be underwater? >> for the experienced divers who have been going in, it takes six hours to get -- >> all under water? >> not all under water. there are sections of this trek, this nearly three-mile journey,

which are effectively walkable. it doesn't mean it's easy, but it is walkable. it's still slippery. they're scaling boulders, and there are still a lot of places where you can slip or get hurt. but there are -- and there are these other sections where they feel the boys could float. but there's still these tight twisting passageways that they haven't been able to drain to the point where they feel more comfortable, where they feel they have been able to reduce the risk. this is where they seem to be hung up on things. the issue of course, richard, and why they're looking at trying to expedite some sort of plan here is because the quality of air inside this cave system is deteriorating and it's to a point where they really don't want it to drop much lower. it used to be around 21% oxygen, which they thought was pretty good. this was when they thought that if they could maintain those levels, then the boys would be able to stay there for months until the rainy season is over.

it's now dropped to 15%. once you get down around 12%, they could be running into issues of hypoxia, so these are risks that they don't want to take. so they're making some very calculated decisions. >> 15 seconds, what about a small little sub that was also brought up by elon musk? >> he seems to be moving toward this tunnel technology. he described it as almost a bouncy castle. it seems that this is the one they're going to give a try. they have tried to look for other places in the area where they might be able to use his drilling technology, but it seems like this operation will take place underground. >> lots of great ideas. janis mackey frayer there in thailand live for us, thank you. i know it's late in the evening for you. that wraps it up for us right here. i'm richard lui here on msnbc. you can follow me on facebook, instagram and twitter. "all in with chris hayes" is next. stick around. . and just like that we felt a little less alone.

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brian's back? he doesn't get my room. he's only going to be here for like a week. like a month, tops. oh boy. wi-fi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. in many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40's. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> we want tough, strong, powerful borders, and we want no crime. >> the divider in chief strikes again. >> you saw that clown yesterday on the statue of liberty. >> donald trump's risky bet on racial grievance, and the new evidence it may not be working. >> when they go low, we go high. i went as high as i could. >> then, day one of the trade war. >> the war was lost on trade many years ago. >> why it hurts trump's voters, but not trump's support. >> the war was lost, but now we're going to win it.