lesson there for you. that is our broadcast for a friday night. brian will be back monday. thank you for being with us. good night for nbc headquarters in new york. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york and a rally speech better designed for a shrink's couch than a public setting donald trump aired grievance after grievance after grievance and made an obvious grab for the spotlight that for much of the day yesterday was owned by his disgraced epa administrator scott pruitt. pruitt resigning amid a sea of ethical scandals and withering criticism from across the ideological spectrum. trump, who one close friend and outside advisor once described as the sun king because he wants all the media's attention for himself, lashed out at the press, at john mccain, at george h.w. bush, the fbi, democrats and the me too movement. >> democrats want anarchy. they really do.

we call them the democrat party. you know why? the democratic party sounds too good. yes, she is a low i.q. individual. i said it the other day. maxine waters. she's somewhere in the mid '60s. let's say i'm debating pocahontas, right? i'm going to get one of those kits. in the middle of the debate when she proclaims that she's of indian heritage because her mother said she has high cheekbones, we will take that little kit and say, we have to do it gently because we're in the me too generation so we have to be very gentle. and we will very gently take that kit and we will slowly toss it, hoping it doesn't hit her and injure her arm. i will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an indian. how about that, fbi agents, how about that guy?

do you think he likes me? did we catch them in the act? it's a rigged deal, folks. it's a rigged deal. i used to say it, it's a rigged deal. it's a disgrace. 75% of those people are downright dishonest, downright dishonest. they're fake. they're fake. >> aye-yie-yie. where is melania? trump saved a warm fuzzy for, you guessed it, vladimir putin. >> they're going, will president trump be prepared, you know, president putin is kgb. and this and that. you know what? putin's fine. he's fine. we're all fine. we're people. will i be prepared? totally prepared. i've been preparing for this stuff my whole life. they don't say that. they don't say that. [ cheers and applause ] >> we are all people. you get that? trump's warm words for his authoritarian counterpart come as white house aides confirm

donald trump and vladimir putin will meet one on one with no one other than translators in the room. "the new york times" writing, quote, there's no telling what mr. trump, a president abhors long briefing papers and often disreregards or defies the advice of his advisors will choose to say when he is alone with mr. putin, a prospect that puts some of his aides and experienced diplomats inside and outside the government on edge. here to help us understand the ties that seem to bind donald trump and vladimir putin, some of our favorite reporters and friends. peter nicolas, white house reporter for the "wall street journal." kimberly atkins, chief washington reporter for "the boston herald." frank figliuzzi, and with us at the table jonathan lemire, associated press white house reporter and evan mcmullen, former cia operative and former candidate for president as an independent. the rally, even his friends describe that version of donald trump as slightly pathetic, as someone who is so desperate for attention, so desperate for the cheers and hoots and hollers

from the crowd that he puts on a show that really isn't even remotely close to anything presidential. >> yeah, there is a show on comedy central where a guy makes an entire show out of impersonating donald trump. it was almost like president trump was impersonating himself other than being himself. i've covered the campaign and since taking office dozens and dozens of these rallies. i was surprised by my ability to be surprised but i was surprised by the me too moment, elizabeth warren, to make a joke about something that has obviously been a groundswell in the last year or so for a lot of people and has meant a lot of people come forward with their stories. also recall this is a president who himself has been accused of sexual assault repeatedly who we heard on the "access hollywood" tape brag about doing so, who just yesterday, the day of his rally, he made the hire official of bill shine who previously was

at fox news being drummed out for covering up these exact kind of escapades of sexual harassment. last night that was perhaps the most stunning moment. but there were several. >> i saw some polling today that even among women, republican women, his approval number is 20 points lower than his approval rating among republican men. i think he has 54% approval either among men or republican men and 34% approval among women, so that plays right into this opportunity to steal women from the independent and republican categories in the midterms. that has to make people like paul ryan and mitch mcconnell to see that. >> of course, women, suburban women in particular, that is not a hand the republican party wants to be dealt going into this fall's midterms. you would think donald trump, he had success to a degree in 2016 with that, with republican women, that he would not want to lose any of -- he can't afford to hemorrhage any of that support going into his reelection bid. that was the most dramatic moment. but also let's recall, we are just days after a newspaper was shot up in annapolis, maryland, and a

number of people died. and we took donald trump 24 hours to sort of express his sympathies to the -- personally express his sympathies to the victims and defend the rights of the free press. here we are days later back on his usual fake news attacks. >> kimberly atkins, our viewers can't see but i can see you nodding. let me let you weigh in on that. >> no, i think that jonathan is spot-on. look, we have the president who also was at a place -- he's about to appoint his second supreme court justice in his first term. that's something that few presidents get to do. he's about to go to nato and represent the united states there. there are a lot of things for him to be talking about, but you can see he is at his most comfortable place at these rallies doing what he thinks that crowd wants, which is attacks on elizabeth warren which includes not only a joke about the me too movement, but also his favorite racial slur to hurl at her, and just a lot of ginning up the crowd. it seems when he's in these

rooms with these core supporters, they bring out the worst in each other. he resorts to that sort of talk and they shout, lock her up. but that's what he likes to do. that's what he's going to focus on and we're going to see a whole lot more of that leading to the midterms and certainly into 2020. >> peter, let me quickly pass along something i heard from a trump ally this morning. he said for a president so publicly and privately obsessed with the size of things, crowds, hands, whatnot, he never misses an opportunity to showcase his smallness. >> well, you have to look at these rallies in some sense as a dramatic acting out of his tweets. where the president is just -- >> >> like performance art? >> yeah, it is a sort of performance art. >> i never heard that before, that's great. >> yeah, i think what we're seeing is kind of a dramatic expression of tweets where he's unchained. these are spontaneous. and they keep the audience riveted. they keep the news media riveted. he may make news at any minute and he often does.

and i think that is really a measure for him, a criteria. to jonathan's point, i wonder how much calculation is going into when he's at these rallies, how much calculating he's doing about which constituency he's winning or losing as opposed to is the audience engaged, are they entertained, is the media enthralled? those are the criteria he considers. >> frank figliuzzi, lest we not get lost and the smallness of it all, he did single out vladimir putin for praise. a president who does not get briefed. people don't tell him the russia intelligence developments. we know he doesn't like to hear that. we've also learned he doesn't read the pdb so i think it's fair to asdum he doesn't listen to a briefing on russia or read anything on russia unless he's reading braille. he's not hearing anything about russia. what do you make of the fact that for all the lunacy he singled out vladimir putin for

praise and said we're all people? >> of all the things he said last night that were disturbing and that we could focus on, that phrase, that comment about putin being kgb, but he's one of us, he's okay, we're all people, that is what i choose to focus on because that's the most disturbing. and i have to tell you, nicolle, an attempt to normalize a stone cold killer like vladimir putin who orders the murders and poisonings of those who he disagrees with is extremely troubling. and this president is about to sit across the table from this man alone and discuss national security matters. and so what troubles me the most here is that we're watching our president become unhinged, imploding in full view of the world and now negotiating with killers, negotiating with heads of state who he perhaps should not be sitting down and negotiating with, and that leads me to the conclusion, nicolle,

that perhaps the greatest threat facing our national security today is an insider threat. it's the president himself who doesn't get it, doesn't understand what he's up against. >> do you agree with that, evan? >> i do agree with that. and i might even go further than frank has gone, although i think everything that frank said was correct. but, look, the president is a national security threat. i and frank, we're not the first ones to observe this. this person, this man, this president has a dangerous relationship with one of our primary foreign adversaries, an adversary that is attacking our country, specifically attacking our ability to choose, to select our own leaders. the president, when he does these things -- and i would say the whole theme last night is not just a president who is coming unhinged. this is a president who is trying to desensitize us and normalize us to attacks on our democracy, to attacks on the institutions that protect our liberty, whether it's the press,

whether it's the fbi. he does these things not just because he's going crazy. he does these things because he wants to walk his people and the country down this road of -- this road away from liberal democracy or away from open free society. that's what he's doing. and so even when he attacks the me too movement, that's part of it. we might say normal, normal political leaders might say don't go anywhere near that because that's dangerous to you. that's not donald trump's approach. donald trump's approach is to attack it head on, trivialize it, and make it a nonissue. he's done that with russia, he's done that with the me too movement. he's done that with the fbi, and he'll do that more and more again. we think he's being unhinged. we think it sounds crazy, but there is a reason he's doing it. and as you can hear from the applause in that room, it's somewhat effective. >> evan and frank make a good point. it is more than buffoonery. it is a national security risk. you were telling me you're going to the summit, you're covering that for the a.p. it starts with a meeting that

should be the layup, the meeting with nato, that is expected to be more fraught, whereas, in the president's mind based on that performance, he views the rendezvous with vladimir putin as the layup. >> the timing of the president's trip to europe next week has unnerved leaders in global capitals. that he starts with brussels. he starts with nato which, of course, yes, should be. these are traditional allies. these are allies that have been in place for decades, generations, but he -- let's recall last year he went to nato. he walked into their faces and in their new headquarters and upbraided them for the cost of the building and for not contributing enough -- >> and refusing to confirm our commitment. >> that's exactly right. and then let's flash back a few weeks ago at the g7, he upended that with a series of petulant tweets about justin trudeau. he withdrew his signature from the agreement at the end of the summit. he goes from nato where i think things will be very tense, to

then the united kingdom where there is such expectation of protests there, the white house is largely keeping trump out of london. all of his meetings, almost all of his meetings will be in the outskirts of town after a weekend of golf in scotland. he then goes to helsinki to meet with putin and recreate the playbook he had with kim jong-un where it will start with that one-on-one meeting and so many european allies are concerned that he's going to have this sort of really tumultuous tense gathering with the leaders in brussels and by the end of it, end up in putin's embrace. and they're afraid of what he might be willing to give away without their permission. >> i would argue he's already in putin's embrace. let me show you -- george will had a piece yesterday calling this moment, this sort of walk-up to held sick ki the most potentially dangerous moment of trump's presidency in the aftermath of singapore and the meeting with kim jong-un. let's watch the president last night on north korea. >> remember, they said, he's too tough!

he's going to cause a war! it's too tough! now they say, he's too nice, he's too nice. he's too nice. i got along very well with chairman kim. i got along very well. that's a good thing that i got along well. we signed a wonderful paper saying they're going to denuclearize their whole thing. it's going to all happen. >> all right, frank figliuzzi, i want to put you on the spot. you were the deputy director of the fbi for counterintelligence. donald trump counters many of our intelligence. if you had that job for another country and you saw that and you were prepping vladimir putin, what would you tell putin to do to make sure donald trump was duped and left the meeting, as jonathan said, in vladimir putin's embrace? >> so, i think it's more of the same. i would continue the strategy here. don't -- >> it's working, right? >> exactly. so by that i mean that putin is going to come into the meeting and say, look, there is a basic understanding here, spoken or

unspoken, that you are enamored with me and it may be because you know we've compromised you, it may be for a host of reasons. but we're going to leverage that and we're going to get as much out of this meeting as we possibly can. and the fact that you're in the room alone with me means we are going to agree to things in the spur of the moment that your associates and aides would never allow you to agree with. so there is already a leg up for putin going into this meeting and i'm concerned that coming out of the meeting we will slowly but surely learn of some things that we've given away yet again. >> peter, let me ask you to weigh in on some of the sort of crushing fallout from the gop fourth of july trip to russia where republicans went, not with their democratic counterparts, not with any members of the american media, highly unprecedented for these kind of holiday codels they're usually called but they woke up to negative headlines this morning and our friend trent watts tweeted,

cannot believe gop once the party that stood strong against de voests is now surrendering to putin and the kremlin. only two years after russia interfered in the u.s. election. has donald trump sort of high jacking the republican party started to bear fruit? we know it's complete, obvious from the meetings. is it starting to bear fruit that they're sort of there in the preadvance trip, saying all the right things, the russian media comes out, and reads something totally different from what the members say, because there's no american media, there's no recording, no witness to what's actually happened, is this the prelude to the trump summit in helsinki? >> i think the president is looking for some kind of realignment where he's trying to convince the republican party and americans more broadly that russia and vladimir putin are not the boogie man. they are potentially allies and friends. at the same time he's been saying that allies and friends, eu, canada, mexico and others are in some cases our worst enemies because of trade practices. this could be a bridge too far for some republicans.

polls show that rank and file republicans are standing by the president. in this trip that the republican senators took, they are showing they are trying to get on board with this new trumpian policy, this trumpian approach to russia that i guess will be cemented in helsinki. the proof will be in the puddle ultimately, right? is russia going to continue menacing eastern europe? are they going to continue to interfere in our elections? and if there's no progress on those fronts, you wonder how long republican senators and republican voters nationally going to go along with this. >> frank, let me give you the last word. we know that's russia's aim. rump appointees have testified under oath before congress it is absolutely russia's intention to continue to meddle in our elections. admiral rogers, head of the nsa, has testified to that. so have the directors of the fbi and the cia. >> just in the last few days, nicolle, we've heard president trump reverse himself once again and say that he's not quite sure that the russians actually did any meddling.

so we're left to understand that he may want this meddling to occur, he may need help in the midterms, he may need help if he runs for president again. and that's why he's keeping russia close to the vest. he may be financially compromised and otherwise. we're going to see this continue and continue until someone stops him. >> you guys always keep me up at night with the things you say at 4:00. peter nicolas, thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, one of donald trump's pitbulls in congress facing new questions about what he knew about abuse allegations when he worked as a college wrestling coach. donald trump weighs in and once again defends a man accused of misconduct. also ahead, what one columnist today describes as donald trump getting caught with his tactical pants down. ew, in the wake of the pruitt resignation. and the president's kavanagh conundrum. how passing over judge kavanagh may look to those investigating whether donald trump has obstructed justice in the russia probe.

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these vicious claims about me of inappropriate conduct with women are totally and absolutely false. they're pure fiction and they're outright lies. >> he denies it. look, he denies it. i mean, if you look at what, what is really going on and you look at all the things that have happened over the last 48 hours, he totally denies it. he says it didn't happen and, you know, you have to listen to him also. you're talking about -- he said 40 years ago this did not happen. as you probably know, he

says he's innocent and i think you have to remember that. he said very strongly yesterday that he's innocent. so you'll have to talk to him about that. >> donald trump has a dark history of sticking up for the accused. rob porter, roy moore, himself. it seems the president is always the first to point out, well, he says he's innocent. and for ohio congressman jim jordan, fierce critic of the justice department and fbi and -- and a former assistant wrestling coach at ohio state university. four have accused him of turning a blind eye to the team doctor in the mid '90s. jordan denies it telling politico, i never knew of any type of abuse. if i did i would have done something about it. and, look, if there are people who are abused then that's terrible and we would want justice to happen. while the university conducts its own investigation, president trump went ahead and jumped ahead of that process and

weighed in aboard air force one yesterday saying of those accusing jordan of turning a blind eye, quote, i don't believe them at all. i believe him. jim jordan is one of the most outstanding people i've met since i've been in washington. i believe him 100%. no question in my mind, i believe jim jordan 100%. he's an outstanding man. "the washington post" summing it up this way. if past is prologue, trump is really opening himself up by coming to the defense of someone he badly wants to trust. that's especially the case when you're talking about a case involving sexual abuse. jonathan and evan are still here, frank and kim are still with us. let me ask you, jonathan lemire, how a white house who will privately acknowledge that the roy moore chapter wasn't good for them, who will privately acknowledge that they're all in a bit of a vice from a communications standpoint on the me too movement because of the president being credibly accused by more than a dozen women, how the president gets on air force one and goes to bat for a guy

who is still under investigation for his potential role in an abuse scandal? >> because the president doesn't listen to anyone around him. the white house staff wants nothing to do with this story. they don't need him -- >> this is now a white house story. it wasn't 24 hours ago. it now is. >> he made it one. the people around him they didn't want him to go out and he chose to do that on his own. preld prefer to issue a statement on their own saying the investigation is ongoing. we'll comment down the road. that's not how this president works. he leaps to the defense of his allies, people he has chosen to support or more importantly who support him. and they will back him and therefore he thinks they must be good people. this couldn't have happened. and let's remember the one person who didn't get the benefit of the doubt, al franken. democrat. trump was very quick to believe those allegations were credible and franken should go. but when they're republicans, when they have an "r" by their name or when they're the president himself they get

the benefit of the doubt. >> since we started this conversation there is a fifth accuser confirmed who says that jim jordan knew about it. frank figliuzzi, you said something on this show that stuck in my brain because i never heard you say it before. you called the questioning by house republicans a disgrace of deputy attorney general rod rosenstein on the day they did their damnedest to annihilate the credibility of the justice department and the fbi in their handling of the russia investigation. i wonder what you make of jim jordan not sort of pushing back on a theory that perhaps this was somehow politically motivated because of his aggressive and, i agree with you, disgraceful questioning of the attorney general. >> so, look, organized crime family members take an oath, blood oath to protect each other at all costs. never give each other up and they'll go down together. essentially the congressman is part of that trump organized crime family. the president is on dangerous ground when he's not listening to the facts. he doesn't care about the facts.

he doesn't want to wait for the investigation to end. he's going to toss it in and toss his lot in with the congressman and immediately say, i believe him 100%. they're going to go down together. we need to wait and see what the facts are. but this kind of symbiotic relationship where i need you, you need me, we'll protect each other, we've got each other's back, we're part of the good old boy network, that's what we're seeing play out here. >> and the facts are as we are learning them, they do not look good for the congressman. and of course the rest of us will wait for the investigation to be complete. let me share with you, frank, some of the other reporting that we have at nbc, one of the wrestlers sean daily said he was groped half a dozen times by dr. richard strauss. that was the doctor for the wrestling team in the mid '90s. when jordan was the assistant wrestling coach. he was too embarrassed to report it to jordan at the time. he said jordan took part in the conversations where

strauss' abuse of many other team members came up. it would be wildly out of the range of normal for an assistant coach not to be part of conversations about the conduct of a team doctor. i mean, you know, my brother and sisters played college sports. those are small traveling units that usually hear not just things that affect the team but hear about everyone's personal lives. it seems as an investigator, these would be credible accounts. >> there is a growing body of evidence here, as you said, even one more today as we are speaking, with too many details, too many people, too many details. we've seen this eerily play out before just recently, usa gymnastics, penn state university, when you have this combination of facts, you have to get very, very concerned. and as you said, an assistant coach engaging in discussion with this with multiple wrestlers saying that they all had talked about this in locker room settings with him, he's -- the team doctor is there doing this, they know about it, they're talking about it, nothing is done.

he's going to have to come out and defend himself. the investigation has to be thorough. but the president has made a mistake here in tactically siding with jordan too early. >> kim, let me put two pieces of information together and ask you to weigh in. the president yesterday, as jonathan said, disparaging, belittling, mocking the me too movement, standing by roy moore, credibly accused of basically being a pedophile, girls as young as 12 and 13 accused him of sexual misconduct. the president accused by more than a dozen women. rob porter who was accused of spousal abuse by two former wives. where are we that men like bill cosby can be held to account for decades of their crimes, where jerry sandusky is ultimately taken down, where the gymnastics scandal is ultimately disinfected by transparency, but the president of the united states, the most powerful man in this country, takes the back of

a man who is a wrestling coach is now accused of knowing of sexual misconduct? >> right. when he could say exactly what you just said a moment ago, he could easily say this is an investigation, let's let it play itself out and he could say nothing more. but instead he's doubling down in his support. you can't even say that this is purely a political calculation. this is clearly something that the president deeply believes, deeply has an affinity for other people who have been accused of things that they deny, despite as you said, reliable evidence, good, believable evidence that something nefarious is going on. if it were a political calculation, he would have changed course after roy moore, right? he doubled down on roy moore and he lost. a normal person would say, even if they were willing to take that risk, would say, that was a bad idea, i'm not going to do it again. and he has done it again. he has done it again and again. >> and again and again. all right. when we come back, the pruitt effect. the latest fallout over the

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scott pruitt's resignation from the epa yesterday kicked off the second season of "survivor white house" as illustrated in this "new york post" cover. one of our favorites. pruitt held onto his position much longer than other scandal-ridden cabinet members. both pruitt served an important function in this white house. i do hope we give him proper credit for that. it fell to him to embody the entire trump ethos. grab what you can, exploit your insider status. lift nepotism to an art form. and never fly coach, all in one high ranking official. so how did pruitt last more than 500 days despite nearly weekly scandals? dana melbank in "the washington post" writes this, quote, while the media and the democrats were getting all worked up about the mattress and the lotion and the chick-fil-a and disneyland and

the phone booth and the bulletproof seats and the rest of pruitt's penny ante corruption little attention was going to the emoluments which are of much greater value. ivanka trump's trademarks and jared kushner's investors in foreign governments pumping millions into trump properties. now pruitt is gone and trump is about to be caught with his tactical pants down. evan? >> well, i think there are two aspects of this i'd like to point out. number one is that in pruitt you sort of see -- you sort of see a mini trump. so with trump, a lot of conservatives, not me of course, but others made the decision we were going to trade certain policy objectives for -- we were going to excuse some corruption, potential alignment with russia and we were going to get what we wanted on the supreme court and elsewhere. in pruitt you see the same sort of thing. he promised to deliver and did deliver policy changes from the epa and the trade was that, okay, he was a corrupt, they may, yes, the republicans may admit he may have done things that were not quite right. >> not quite right?

he's under 13 investigations. he may have committed crimes. >> that's right. but the point is that is the trade that the party is making -- >> i'm sorry, the republican party sucks but you can still find noncriminal republicans. >> absolutely you can. >> maybe. >> no, i think you can. but this is what's happening. the other thing is that i think trump kept pruitt around not only because he distracted the media and the democrats, but because, i come back to the topic of desensitization. you hear every week something new pruitt was doing. after awhile a certain portion of the population, especially among trump's base is going to start to say, you know what, again, going back to the trade, does it matter so much as long as we get what we want, can't we just allow pruitt and trump and these others to get what they want? that's the trade. that's what's happening here. that's the path we're being led down. >> frank, jump in here on what we were commenting about jim jordan. the president and his friends in congress are a mob family, then the president and his cabinet are a mob marriage.

i mean, this is husband and wife. the president and his cabinet, there is a direct line between the trump family and the kushner family's sort of glaring lack of concern about ethics and gaining financially from their positions of power and the conduct of the cabinet. is it chicken or an egg or is that what you see when you look at organized crime families and this kind of conduct? >> so, first, evan got it right on the nose, which is that we're seeing the embodiment of a philosophy shared by the group, which is that the end justifies the means. as long as we are accomplishing our targeted objectives getting done what our base wants done, we're going to plow through any ethics or integrity concerns anyone has. it's birds of a feather flock together, we'll protect each other, we cover each other. you get the job done and perform for me. i take care of you and we're seeing that at its fullest in pruitt. and now i want to know the inside story here.

who told pruitt and how that it was time to go? was it pruitt on his own volition? was it others? if someone actually dictated that he had to go, we need to know that story because we need to applaud and celebrate that rare occurrence that somebody said, enough, you need to go. >> jonathan, it's my understanding that no one said enough. it was about bad p.r. >> right. eventually it was a death by a thousand cuts. there was no particular breaking point here. in fact -- >> certainly not on the ethical front, on the p.r. front maybe. >> the president finally got tired of the headlines more than anything else. he just was -- he actually applauds the work he has done at the epa. he think -- >> he doesn't care about the ethical stuff. >> he thinks he's one of his most effective cabinet members. >> oh, my god. >> that he was getting stuff done. he also felt for awhile that the charges were overblown, that it was a media witch-hunt. much too much was being made of this. >> laura ingraham started attacking him. >> that did tip the scales. certainly his chief of staff had been advocating for pruitt to be out. a lot of the staff was. that played a role. eventually trump was there is

too much with this guy. >> i want to read some of your piece. you did an amazing piece being in a trump cabinet. what has angered trump more than the substance of the scandals is the bad images they produce. according to four white house officials and advisors. the president complained to confidant more of his cabinet members weren't good on tv. he fumed at the ethical question surrounding pruitt, zenke and hud head -- is ben carson still there? did he make it? we haven't heard from him in a while. we'll look for that next week. that he was only seeing his cab threat on tv for scandals and not fulfilling campaign promises. your piece goes into details. give us the brackets. you have pompeo in the highly functional cabinet member. everyone else falls into subsets. >> pompeo and mattis, we think the report something that mattis' influence is starting to wane. he didn't want the space -- >> or john bolton. >> two keys to become an effective cabinet member

for this president our reporting finds. one to be able to manage him, to tilt him to the outcome you want without him getting upset with you, without him thinking you're lecturing him or looking down on him, something rex tillerson never mastered. obviously praising him repeatedly like steve mnuchin. that's very helpful. >> being rich, that helps. >> that certainly is too. >> he likes rich guys. >> and the other idea is being able to promote him, to be in that cabinet meeting that we see dear leader type meetings and sing his praises, but be on television and be an effective advocate. thump has been up for too long in his mind, that hasn't been happening. he was upset when wilbur ross went on tv with the soup can. the prop was old and mundane. that didn't work. those are the things that he wants. he's concerned about public imagery and concerned about selling the president's accomplishments. >> he's selling condos. all right. after the break, donald trump's kavanagh conundrum. if the president passes up the front-runner for supreme court,

could he show his hand whether he's concerned about the obstruction of justice investigation into himself? we'll bring you new reporting and put the question to our panel. (vo) what if this didn't have to happen? i didn't see it. (vo) what if we could go back? what if our car... could stop itself? in iihs front-end crash prevention testing,

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and protect your privacy. because when this place does what it was built for, then we all get a little closer. as you know, there is now a vacancy on the supreme court. [ cheers and applause ] and if you tune in monday at 9:00, i think you're going to be extremely happy with the selection, right? and they're all great. they're all great. >> he is always plugging a time slot. good lord. all right. they're all great, but could one choice actually pose a greater threat to the president than the others? brand-new reporting in "the new york times" today lays bare donald trump's kavanagh conundrum. judge brett kavanagh widely reported to be the front runner once argued that a president could be impeached for lying. the reporting from today's "new york times" details kavanagh's role in the independent counsel investigation conducted by ken starr into president clinton. quote, he once argued that

president bill clinton could be impeached for lying to his staff and misleading the public. a broad definition of obstruction of justice that would be damaging if applied to president trump in the russia investigation. but now if trump passes over kavanagh, could the decision itself suggest that he's worried about what would happen if he were held to that standard? if he could be impeached for lying to his staff and misleading the public, the trump tower cover-up suddenly looks more ominous to this president. the panel is back to help us understand the stakes for the president and for the mueller investigation if trump picks after today's news and if he rejects kavanagh. frank, you and i have been talking since this supreme court vacancy. it feels like 11 weeks ago, but i think it was only a few days ago. since the seat opened up about the potential cases that could end up before the united states supreme court involving the mueller investigation, questions about whether or not you can indict a president, questions about obstruction of justice, questions whether you can subpoena a president. it seems like this was put out

there perhaps to maybe give the president pause. but it seems like there is equal peril in passing him over and maybe showing your hands in terms of your degree of concern about the obstruction of justice investigation itself. >> so, this is going to be one of the biggest decisions the president ever makes, as any president ever makes. this is going to be personal for the president. what we're going to see happen here is he's going to pick the most personally expedient choice that he can, but there is a dilemma as you said because kavanagh, there's two separate conflicting issues here. one is he's come out with this research or these statements that seem to say, you can be impeached under these circumstances and so that seems to sway the president against selecting him. but in the same vein kavanagh has previously come out with regard to impeachment -- yeah, with regard to criminal charges and said, no, we can't -- we shouldn't be filing criminal charges against a sitting president. so you have impeachment and you have criminal charges. so if the president thinks he's going to be impeached, he likely

won't go with kavanagh. if he thinks he's facing criminal charges as well, he will go with kavanagh. and the thing is, you can't predict what a supreme court justice is going to do, but he must be tied up in knots on this right now. >> kimberly, your thoughts. >> yeah, i think it's the same. i mean from the beginning, the fact that he did work for kenneth starr with that independent counsel investigation was a double edge sword just for the reasons that frank pointed out. he was somebody obviously who believes in the ability of an independent counsel to do his or her job so that cuts against the president's constant messaging that the special counsel investigation that's going on into him is some -- is nefarious in some way. also don't forget that kavanagh is the chief author of the starr report, which is filled with all sorts of salacious sexual details about bill clinton which on the one hand trump may be happy to talk about, but on the other hand it brings more attention to his own issues in that era -- in that area. so there are a lot of

conflicting things that will come out in a confirmation hearing that the president may like a lot and other things he may not like at all. >> in reporting this afternoon -- >> what's striking, the rollout of supreme court justice gorsuch was something this white house did really well. for white house staff that has faced a lot of dysfunction and tripped over its own feet mostly caused by the president himself, that was something they held close to the vest. they were able to do so in secret. we knew the final two -- >> to be fair, the president was involved in the process. it was run by the white house counsel's office. the president was read in at the end of the process. >> which perhaps prevented it from leaking. that's something they were very happy with and there is internal there is pressure to do that again. they really want to get this choice right. >> and kavanagh is mcgahn's pick. >> they know this is a big moment for the president and his legacy going forward and they want this to go really well in this primetime setting monday night before he goes off -- >> i'm rooting for the guy that thinks he can be impeached for lying.

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. i have spoken it a thousand points of light of all the community organizations are spread like stars throughout the nation doing good. we will work hand in hand encouraging, sometimes leading, sometimes being led. >> all the rhetoric we see with the thousand points of light.

what did that mean? does anyone know? i know one thing. make america great again we understand. putting america first, we understand. thousand points of light? i never quite got that one. what the hell is that? has anyone figured that out? it was put out by a republican. >> i'm sorry, it's called decency and you wouldn't recognize it if it spoke russian. that was the president of the united states bashing the president of the united states for charity. >> he doesn't understand what points of light, light meaning truth and goodness. that's what he is attacking. he is attacking goodness. why is he doing that? he doesn't want to be held accountable for his depravity. he needs a situation, a world and a country which is rewarded for that. the other thing that i think is worth watching very closely is

that the president in doing this is attacking a symbol of republican past. i would say, one the republicans should be proud of. >> the democratic president awarded him the medal of freedom. he is held in high regard by both parties. >> here attacked other republicans who used to be held in high regard before. he attacked mccain last night and mitt romney, the nominee once upon a time. they garnered tremendous support, but to attack a former republican president that way is something different. what i think we need to watch is what the reaction of his base is. if you watch that clip again, you will notice that the crowd doesn't really give him the same applause it normally does. overtime i think that trump will want to disassociate the party from its past leader that is it

respected, even reagan. he doll that to complete his taking control of the party and that will be a scary thing. it's something to watch. he is not quite there yet, but moving in that direction. >> this is where he outfoxes fox. the 41st president was close for a period of years with rogera y ales. trump is grosser than his closest allies in the far right media. >> that's right. is there any reason to suspect they won't go with him? >> i will be surprised if shaun hannity defends the attacks on the 41st president's charity. >> he will probably let it go. it's a call to service. that's what the thousand points of light is. >> let us know where you stand, shaun. tweet me, text me. air another clip tonight.

i love it when you do that. >> this president looks at disassociating the path for himself. bringing in the bush party. they did not support him in 2016, but also he sees it as branding. that to me is the base instinct. make america great again. the slogan is not at goes. >> last word to you, kimberly. >> jonathan is right. the biggest thing here is that the bushes did not support trump. trump remembers that lack of support where as you have seen bill clinton and george h.w. bush sit with george w. bush. you won't see that sort of respect given from one president to another. >> i saw melania trump sit with the former presidents and looked very happy. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.

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my thanks to frank and kimberly atkins, evan mcmullen. that does it for the hour. i'm nicole wallace. we will be back monday for deadline white house. >> it's a fest us have for the rest of us and the president is airing grievances. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kor nabbingy for chris matthews. the shock jock is at it again. fresh off the resignation of his administrator scott pruitt, president trump did what he does best. riled up the base and attacked critics. he was at a rally in montana and trump