this for you. i'm going hand off to my dear colleague joy reid with yaa.m. y who will pick up the galle from here. >> thanks, alex, welcome to a.m. joy. we have a lot of political news to get to but first, the breaking news in thailand, several of the boys trapped in a cave for two weeks have been rescued. nbc is following the story closely. we will keep you updated on the ongoing rescue mission. meanwhile, donald trump is setting up for a new chapter in his show down with robert mueller. rudy giuliani is back doing the media circuit and he tells nbc news that trump's legal team will demand mueller come up with evidence linking trump to a crime before trump sits down for an interview. giuliani went further in an interview with the "new york times" asking mueller for evidence trump committed a crime while questioning mueller's authority to investigate possible obstruction of justice. i'm no lawyer but perhaps i can

help. the order appoint the special counsel that he has the right to look into "any platters that ray rose or may arise directly from the investigation into links between russia and the trump campaign." that would presumably include attempts to stifle the investigation. those facts don't seem to matter to team trump because the attacks are meant just as much for the court of public opinion as they are for the courts. they appear to be working. a recent "washington post" poll shows nearly as many people, 45%, disapprove of mueller's handling of the investigation. joining me now, i have the think cross founder of the beat d.c., charlie piece, writer for "esquire" and michelle bernard of the bernard center for women, politics, and public policy. good morning, let's start off by taking a listen to giuliani this morning on abc down playing, though he does admit donald trump telling james comey, the former fbi director, to let

michael flynn off the hook. take a listen. >> what he said to him was "can you -- >> comey says he took it as direction. >> that's okay. by that time he had been fired and he said a lot of other things that have turned out to be untrue. the reality is as a prosecutor i was told that many times, can you give the man a break, either by his lawyers, relatives, friends. you take that into consideration but that doesn't determine not going forward with it. >> tiffany cross, let's start with the fact that rudy giuliani was back out for donald trump. the first round didn't go very well. he didn't have that much of a command of the legal strategy. are you surprised he's back out there let alone by what he's saying? >> the first round didn't go that well and by all evidence the second round is not going that well. this is in no way how law works. the prosecutor doesn't have to prove to donald trump a crime has been committed and as the person charged with protecting our democracy, donald trump should be the first person to

volunteer and sit down with the special counsel. we've seen that this investigation has produced 17 indictments, the department of homeland security said russia impacted 21 states during the 2016 election cycle. we've seen what happened with paul manafort, now michael cohen may be live inning. to protect our democracy he should be the first person in line willing to go. there's also several other on going investigations. we have to think about the senate intelligence committee. we saw what happened when the intelligence committee investigation in the house was completely thwarted by republican efforts so it's unbelievable that this is where we are as a country. i want to say also that the man who brought back mandatory minimums is complaining the justice system isn't fair to him. give me a break. >> let's listen to donald trump on may 18 of 2017 where he denied what rudy giuliani admitted this norming, namely

urging comey to go easy on flynn. >> did you at any time urge former fbi director james comey in any way, shape, or form to close or back down the investigation into michael flynn? also, as you look back -- >> no. next question. >> there's a certain brazenness to it. it almost doesn't matter if president trump completely contradicts rudy giuliani who is now out there defending him because the audience is the republican base, your folks who just want to disbelieve this information. it doesn't matter what the facts ar are. >> i'm not sure they want to disbelieve the information but they are ignoring it. donald trump is going to solidify the base in the supreme court pick next week. t the russia investigation, and every presidency, whether it's whitewater with bill clinton, tony rezko with the obamas, every administration gets

something like this and this will hang on to president trump for a long time. it will go down to is the objection charge and that's what rudy giuliani is trying to insulate and look for in my opinion and i'm not an attorney but that's where the problems come for the president in the midterms and the president in 2020. i think the republican base that i listened to and polled into wants some closure in this issue and the longer it drags out the more unbelievable it becomes and the more it helps donald trump. >> you're a smooth man because you tried to get tony rezko in there which was not an issue in the obama white house at all. it was a campaign issue brought up in the early days of the campaign for president in 2008. there was no investigation of this type against president obama but i want to stay with you for a second. the republican base had a lot of tolerance for the benghazi investigation which was 11 separate investigations and went

on and on and on. why is it that they didn't want that one to come to an expeditious close? >> well, it was politically expedient and plus at the end of the day, that whole day's worth of hears with secretary clinton sort of helped her. and then the outrageousness of how long it lasted, that was the tip of the iceberg so politics are politics and some of these things are good policeally. right now they're focused on russia medically and the president and there are a lot of people that are going to go to jail that broke the law. that question is going to be did the president break the law and republicans don't believe he did in this case. >> jou19 people indicted so far including the former chairman of the campaign, paul manafort who is cooling his heels behind bars. five people have pleaded guilty including the former national

security advisor to the united states. charlie pierce, let me play for you rudy giuliani on abc basically coming to the idea that mueller wants to charge his client with objection. take a listen. >> the obstruction statute they want to charge him with -- >> do you know they want to? >> no, but i think they're investigating although they've never told us what they're investigating which we want to know, it says you have to obstruct. when lester holt asked him do you expect this investigation to go on, the president says of course i do, in fact i believe it's going to go on longer now around i did it for the best interest of the country. the president knew the investigation was going to go on. that's the best fact we have. >> charlie pierce, i won't presume to know how long you've been doing media but i don't think i've ever heard a president's lawyer go on tv and say "oh, he's going to charge him." but he seems to think his client

will be charged with obstruction of justice. >> we have to i think change joe biden's evaluation of rudy giuliani to a noun, a verb and no collusion. that's where we are right now. it's been a long time since right was in a courtroom. he's a tv lawyer. he's jack mccoy except he doesn't act as well as sam waterston. he's out there to change public opinion not make legal points so it doesn't matter how many times he backs the train up over his own feet. he's out there -- i mean the quote he gave to the "new york times" about public opinion and a possible democratic takeover of the house and impeachment, which in other words they won't impeach him if i turn public opinion of the investigation, first of all, i'm not sure it's true but it's clearly a demonstration of what rudy giuliani's role is this. >> and for those of you that

haven't read that story, charlie pierce was referring to an interview that rudy giuliani gam gave to the "new york times" where he said "nobody is going to consider impeachment if public opinion has included this is an unfair investigation and that's why public opinion is investigation." that's what the point of this is, trying to drag down the investigation so donald trump can survive an impeachment? >> absolutely. and i say this as a former white collar criminal defense attorney as much as it pains me to have to say this. if you look at what rudy giuliani is doing despite all of the gaffes he makes, he is making a very vigorous defense of the president, if you look at congressional testimony and intent dealing with the independent counsel statute, nothing says the attorney general can't do what what he did. there's nothing that puts a time limit on the investigation. there's nothing that says you cannot subpoena the president of

the united states and this is testimony given by the brookings institute and the american enterprise institute which is conservative but the role of the criminal defense attorney in this case is not necessarily to abide by what the -- our notions of fairness are. he's -- he has to tell the truth but also find a way to defend his client. if donald trump were my client i would be scared about what's coming down the pike and we know that the political process is just as important as the legal process so the only thing they can gamble on is that if their client talks to robert mueller, it's more likely than not he is going to lie to robert mueller and then everything falls down on donald trump so they'll go out and what do they do? they take the process, take a little bit longer, do everything they can to extend the process and then say to the american public "it's taking too long" but they're the people holding it up and they know donald trump

is the man who said he could do physical harm to someone on park avenue, i believe and no one would care. so they can lie, do anything they want. they will be too difficult to impeach their client if the vast majority of the american public believes robert mueller is the bad guy. that for the country is a good legal defense. >> not only that. but also tiffany gaming the ref. printing out an alternate narrative even on the trump tower meeting which is one of the more damning pieces of evidence about potential collusion. here's rudy giuliani working the refs on that. >> don't believe he did know about it, don't believe he knew about it afterwards. i think you could have very differing recollections because it was in the heat of the campaign. i was probably there that day. i don't remember it. did somebody say something to me? i don't know. you know what a campaign is

like. it's helter-skelter. again it doesn't mean anything because it resulted in nothing. >> it's helter-skelter to remember a meeting with russians offering dirt on your political opponent. helter-skelter, hard to remember. >> this is so incredibly ridiculous. somebody ought to be at the new york state bar association filing ay from sprans against rudy giuliani and the fact that donald trump has chosen this cousin-dater to lead his defense team shows how ill equipped he is to be at the helm of the united states. but if donald trump refuse this is subpoena, this is an example of something that likely could end up before the supreme court and what do you know? he has a supreme court pick coming up monday. >> he will pick his own jury in theory. isn't that convenient? my guests are all coming back. up next, i'll talk with somebody who can tell us why meeting with vladimir putin one on one could be very dangerous for donald trump. stay with us. ♪ ♪

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. >> they're going will president trump be prepared? president putin is kgb and this and that. you know what? putin is fine, he's fine. we're all fine. we're people. will i be prepared? totally prepared. i've been preparing for this stuff my whole life. >> when donald trump meets with vladimir putin next week he'll do so alone, no advisers, just translators. trump thinks very highly of his

ability to outmaneuver a former kgb spy who he thinks is fine but recent events suggest otherwise. trump touted his recent summit with kim jong-un as a rollicking success, even declaring the nuclear threat on the korean peninsula was over. it appears he spoke too soon. the north korean regime is blasting the trump administration for pushing "unilateral and gangster like demand for denuclearization." putting trump's much ballyhooed deal making into question. joining me now is vladimir karamerza. there is a two second delay. the "washington post" had an extraordinary piece of data and its approach. here's the quote "with putin, trump takes a more conciliatory approach, treating the russian

leader as a confident. so what do you think i should do about north korea? he asked putin in their november telephone call. some of the officials saw the request for advice as naive, a sign trump believes the two countries are partners in the effort to denuclearize the korean peninsula. your thought s? >> great to be on your program. i have to say we have been here many times before, vladimir putin has been in power for a generation. this year marks his 19th year in power as leader of russia either as president or prime minister. ka mr. putin and trump have med twice before but this will be the first official bilateral summit. president bill clinton had a meeting with vladimir putin in june of 2000, president george bush had one with putin in 2001

and then president obama had one in 2009. they always seem to take place in the summer. we know this phrase that history teaches only that it doesn't teach anything and people don't learn on other people's mistakes but if we look at the history of past u.s. presidential deals with vladimir putin we see that this is a very troubled and failed history. ca but let's recall when president bush called vladimir putin straightforward and trustworthy and he looked into his eyes and everybody remembers that phrase. then we know how mr. bush's presidency ended in relations with vladimir putin over the georgia war and other things when president obama came in, when he met vladimir putin in

the summer of 2009 which he didn't have to do, vladimir putin was prime minister having side stepped the constitutional limit on two consecutive presidential terms and the russian constitution does not grant the prime minister any role in foreign and defense matters and opposition leaders urged the u.s. government not to grant putin the status he was not entitled to but president obama chose to meet with vladimir putin and he praised him for the extraordinary work he was doing on behalf of the russian people and we know again how president obama's presidency ended in rulgss with russia. so the current administration should heed the lessons of its predecess predecessors. we now how this will end. we've had 18 years of vladimir putin and judging how previous attempts by united states presidents of both parties to have a good relationship with vladimir putin ended.

at the end of the day there can be k not be any genuine partnership and certainly no kind of convergence of interest between a democracy and an authoritarian kleptocratic regime. it's only a question of time before the current u.s. president fwiends out what his predecessors have. >> appreciate that history. there have been attempts at a russia reset as hillary clinton called it but the difference is that the previous presidents didn't seem to cultivate a sort of mentor mentee relationship with vladimir putin. donald trump seems to deeply admire him. you go back to the 1980s, he's wanted to be personally involved in diplomacy with the then soviet union and now with russia but with putin he seems to admire the man. here's an interview on fox news on june 14 suggesting that h he just asked putin for favors he could solve problems in the world.

take a listen. >> as an example if vladimir putin were sitting next to me at a table instead of one of the others and we were having dinner the other night in canada i could say would you do me a favor? would you get out of syria? would you do me a favor? get out of ukraine, you shouldn't be there. >> in your experience how would vladimir putin respond to such an entreaty? a request for favors? >> well, we know vladimir putin is a former soviet kgb officer. there's no such thing as a former kgb officer, once kgb always kgb and in mr. putin's case this certainly applies any sign of weakness on the part of the interlock yk yck you -- int you tar is an invitation to grab more. interlock youer the to be more

forthright. this is what what happened has done in response to previous attempts by u.s. presidents to seek accommodation with him. they may have had a different style, president obama and president bush for example, there's hard any any areas of continuity between them in domestic u.s. policies but in terms of their initial attitudes toward vladimir putin they were similar so they had their own personal style so with the current u.s. president we just had this clip about his attitude but i think it's a short time before he finds out this assessment is not going to prove to be correct. >> and donald trump indicated he may lift sanctions on russia and may even recognize the annexation of crimea. if that were to happen, would that simply trigger more aggression on the european continent by putin? what would happen if donald trump were to do that?

>> any concessions on the part of the opposite party for someone with the mentality of vladimir putin is an invitation to strike more and grab more. >> this is what we have seen with previous u.s. presidents in the case of george w. bush and barack obama, what they did as a concession is turned a blind yierks both of them, to the domestic democratic abuses in russia to the senscensorship of media, the rigging of the elections. they just decided let's let him do whatever he wants to do domestically but we'll try to find accommodation with him. this is an approach that never works because if we look at the past century of russian history we see domestic regression and external aggression go hand in hand. there's no reason to expect the government that violates the rights of its own people to be

respectful of international norms or the interest of other countries so those western leaders, including u.s. presidents of both parties who chose to turn a blind eye on the domestic abuses of rule of law and democracy ended up with mr. putin put put putin engaging in foreign aggression. so the experience of the past two days now offers a very clear advice to who is in the white house that any concessions, any compromise with the current regime is going to backfire. they only understand a position of principle and strength and if the current u.s. administration or any administration wants to be successful in dialings with vladimir putin they have to stand on a position of principle and strength with regard to the domestic situation in russia -- i'm joining you from berlin because i'm attending the annual session of the parliamentary assembly of the organization for security and cooperation in europe of which both the united states and russia are full members and the rules of this organization clearly stipulate

that questions relating to human rights, the rule of law and democracy are not domestic affairs but international concern so i hope the presidents find time to talk about these issues next week as well. >> excellent advice from vladimir kacar kara-murza. next up, an update from thailand where a complex rescue operation is still under way. copd makes it hard to breathe. so to breathe better, i go with anoro. ♪ go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ go your own way once-daily anoro

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let's turn to the breaking news. divers in thailand rescued four of the 12 boys who have been trapped with their soccer coach for two weeks. the boys are getting medical attention as crews prepare to rescue the others still trapped in the cave. bill neely joins us now live from near the caves in northern thailand. what can you tell us, bill? >> good morning, joy. you can see and i can certainly feel why this rescue operation was so necessary. these are the monsoon rains that they had feared all along. this is one of the reasons this rescue operation was begun with the dramatic words this is

d-day, it as now or never. and you can just about see through the rain the flickering lights there, four ambulances have gone past. two boys in the group of two ambulances. one boy in each ambulance and within the last hour another two ambulances. those four boys are now at the hospital being treated and there is word there may be another two boys on dry ground inside the cave complex. a short time ago there was a news update. 09 divers were involved with 10 at the apex ott the operation and he described how the divers were taking the boys underneath them as they swam and waded

through submerged water through that cave complex so the boys have been waiting, walking but. they have to reply the tanks underneath the ground that i'm standing before they can get the other boys out not only for those boys left but the parents waiting this must have an agonizing ordeal but the manner said they had to move fast. imagine mount everest.

the higher you go, the more dangerous it is for weakened bodies and that what was happening sign the cave complex. oxygen levels went from 21% to 15%. that would have created a medical condition that meant the boys would weaken very quickly indeed for the reasons you're seeing now and the falling oxygen levels the rescue had to happen and the idea that they could drill down through the mountain and get a shaft and pop the boys out or the other option, leave the boys underground until september and october, those were ruled out. the boys were briefed. they knew what was going to happen. the parents either agreed to the plan or understood the plan four

boys are being treated there the hospital. nine to go. as the commander said. nothing like this has been attempted before and the cooperation between the tie divers five of them at the apex and the international divers, 13 of those, that's ten core divers and three support dooirs extraordinary and they are determined that this very long journey home for these boys after two weeks and one down ends today with complete success. >> a extraordinary report. nbc's bill neely, thank you so much for giving us that information. coming up, a senator may have given away donald trump's pick for the supreme court. and the

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>> the rules of the judiciary committee and the rules of the senate, the majority basically does rule and although. >> an opportunity to ask questions, and we should, whoever the nominee may be, the notion we can stop them with 49 votes is not in the cards. >> democrats are surely wishing they had more tools in the box

to stop donald trump's supreme court nominee but you just heard the pessimistic assessment from illinois senator dick durbin. meanwhile, orrin hatch may have tipped trump's hand on the pick, raising eyebrows for the use of a pro noun in an editorial. "no matter the nominees background and credentials, progressives will do everything they can to paint her a closet partisan if not outright extremist." he goes on to say "i will devote all my energies to ensuring we confirm the kind of supreme court justice america needs. the justice who says what the law is not what she wants it to be." it raises speculation that it will be amy coney barrett. is there anything democrats can do to slow down the train that can lead to the end of roe v. wade and the erosion of everything from voting rights to workers right to affirmative action? back with me, many i panel, tiffany cross, katon dawson, charlie pierce and michelle bernard. i'm going to start with you, michelle.

judge amy coney barrett's bio. she is a u.s. appeals court judge, she's young, she could be on the court for 40 years, maybe more. she served as a law clerk for antonin scalia, she went to notre dame. trump said he wanted harvard or ya yale. she said life begins at concepti conception. she belongs to a very, very conservative catholic sect. she's been voted confirmed before and dianne feinstein said about her religious views the dogma lives loudly in you. let's say she's the nominee. how do politics wind out for murkowski and collins? >> let me start off by saying if she is the nominee there is absolutely so much to be fearful of. there is a report that the national catholic register reported last week that talks about her alleged membership in a church called the people of praise in oregon, it is

incredibly conservative. it's been described by many as being cult like where the women are urged to adhere to strict gender roles which include submitting to your husband and submitting to men. so people -- when we talk about this discussion and the possibility of her becoming the next justice to the supreme court or any of the president's other possible nominees, we have to remember that abortion rights are not the only thing that is at stake. voting rights. whether or not evolution and science can be taught in the classro classroom, whether or not classrooms will remain integrated or segregated, gay marriage. you talk about it. it's going to be so incredibly important for people and for democrats in particular to step up their game. i personally believe that they've got two routes to go, one, focus on the moderate republicans in the senate, lisa murkowski as well as senator collins from maine but also i

think the democrats need to take a hard look at quorum busting. they have to have a quorum for the nomination to go through and if all 47 and two independents in the senate refuse to show up for the confirmation hearings there cannot be any senate business on this issue. >> and i interviewed -- i was filling in -- no it might have been last week on this show we interviewed the gentleman who wrote a piece on that, the professor who wrote about quorum busting and he seemed to think it wouldn't work because you can't maintain it for very long and there are ways republicans could force democrats to come back to the chamber. but on the point about what would focus on what would now pass for moderates -- interesting how far to the right we've shifted given what are considered moderates, mitch mcconnell is worried what might happen with lisa murkowski and susan collins.

you don't get on the short list if you want to overturn roe v. wade but he's wary and told trump he could lose the two senators if he picks amy coney barrett. to me i doubt that. i'm not sure i believe susan collins wouldn't just vote with all the republicans. she's a republican. so is murkowski. >> let me reference to this back to my senior senator lindsey graham who took the political whipping when we went after and voted for in support of president obama's two liberal justices hagan and sonia sotomayor. he did that because he said they were qualified and elections have consequences. so i've lived this with senator graham and a confidante to watch his poll numbers tumble and i predict he will be one of the leaders in this. it's about are you qualified to

serve so senator graham has standing in this aree fwha and took the punishment for voting for rm ttwo of obama's justices. i think you'll have democratic senators that will look at the same verbs senator graham did and we probably have a chance of one or two where they need to let reelected. so the politics are intricate and serious and the winner will be donald trump and i look forward to the democratic party attacking a catholic woman who is qualified. >> hold on, katon, the politics are that women in 18 states almost immediately could right to bodily autonomy. it's a little different than saying whether someone is qualified. let me play for you an interview with the man who crafted donald trump's supreme court short list, leonard leo, and he's asked explicitly about how people got on his list.

>> is it fair to say that anyone who made it on to your list is likely to be an opponent of roe v. wade? >> no. first of all, nobody really knows. we've been talking about this for 36 years going all the way back to the nomination of sandra o'connor and after that 36-year period we only have a single individual on the court who has expressly said he would overturn "roe." so i think it's a bit of a scare tactic and ranks speculation more than anything else. >> people don't believe that. here is an ad for the group demand justice who is aimed at collins and murkowski which expresses what i think are widespread doubts that is an honest assessment of how people make the list. >> if donald trump has his way, the next supreme court pick will turn the court against a woman's constitutional right to safe legal abortion. trump said he'd only pick judges who overturn roe. >> there has to be punishment for the woman. >> senator susan collins could

be the deciding vote on trump's pick for justice. she claims to support a woman's right to have an abortion, why won't she rule out voting for trump's anti-choice picks. >> katon got a chance. charlie pierce, democrats don't belief it when people on the right say they're not trying to explicitly put somebody on that overturns "roe." is that a good faith disbelief. >> i want michelle bernard as my political strategist because she has the proper ferocity, that's number one. number two, of course not. you don't get on the federalist society list if you're wishy-washy on that particular issue but there are a couple points i want to make. number one, i've always believed the real target of this everyday is not "roe" but "griswold." in the republican judicial circles there is an article of faith that there is no right to privacy in the constitution. and that leads me to my second point which is that this particular fight has little or

nothing do with trumpism. this is a chance to enact a republican wish list that goes back before ronald reagan. this is an effort to findly reverse the gains of the civil rights movement. john roberts made his bones in the reagan justice department as a young lawyer attacking the voting rights act. the voting rights act will be on the table. obviously labor rights after last week are going to be on the table this isn't trumpism, this is republicanism. >> i'm looking at these ads and there's been so much focus on abortion rights and a woman's right to choose and i would be remiss if i didn't point out that that is not a winning argument alone on this fight. there are red state feminists all over the country that are pro-life and democrats have to find a way to reach out to those women and tell them what is at

stake in their futures if the president's nominees make it on to the court? >> i don't see a strategy forward for democrats because even if you target lisa murkowski and susan collins, you have joe manchin, heidi heitkamp on the right and this is red meat to his base. this is why they gave him a bottomless mulligan when he supported an accused child molester. they care so much about fetuses but very little about children crossing the border in cages or children in flint michigan drinking poison water. >> or children with black or brown skin. >> absolutely. >> the whole panel will be back next hour. tiffany, kate and charlie, thank you, michelle. we're bringing everybody back. in our next hour, the man who allegedly turned a blind eye to sexual harassment at fox news lands a new job at the white house. and michael avenatti is back here live on "a.m. joy." stay with us. ut things like concert tickets or a new snowboard. matt: whoo! whoo! jen: but that all changed when we bought a house. matt: voilà! jen: matt started turning into his dad.

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your mornings were made for better things than psoriatic arthritis. as you and your rheumatologist consider treatments, ask if xeljanz xr is right for you. xeljanz xr is a once-daily pill for psoriatic arthritis. taken with methotrexate or similar medicines, it can reduce joint pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma, and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts, and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start

and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common, and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. xeljanz xr can reduce the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis. don't let another morning go by without talking to your rheumatologist about xeljanz xr. conversations in the locker room are a lot different than someone coming up to you and saying there was some kind of abuse. i never saw, never was told of any type of abuse. if i had been, i would have dealt with it. our coaching staff, we would have dealt with it. these were our student athletes.

>> congressman jim jordan is -- at ohio state university. the "washington post" reports that seven former wrestlers have come forward saying that he ignored complaints of sexual abuse by the doctor in the late 1908s and '90s. team members said they believe jordan's claims that he did not know about any misconduct. congressman jordan, a supporter of donald trump is getting that support back. trump told reporters on thursday, quote, i believe hinal 100%. no question in my mind i i believe him. he's an outstanding man. katon is back with me. one of the wrestlers at osu when he was assistant coach named shawn dailey says she was groped half a dozen times in the mid-1990s when jordan was the assistant wrestling coach. he was too embarrassed to report it directly to jordan at the time but said that jordan took part in conversations where straws' abuse came up.

one more clip from that report. another person said i participated with jimmy and the other wrestlers in locker room talk. that phrase again about strauss. we all about. it was common knowledge in the locker room, if you went to the doctor about anything, you would have to pull your pants down. >> i mean, if this was a democrat, it would be like top story every day probably. and he would -- that democrat would be in some political jeopardy. why is it that with seven people coming out and saying that jim jordan knew of sexual abuse at osu, he doesn't seem to be in any political jeopardy at all? >> jim jordan's district in ohio, it's equivalent to the tray gowdy's district in north carolina. he's won every election by overwhelming numbers. my calls in to ohio were he's solid, he'll be a congressman after the november race. that's the politics of it are that he's in great shape in his district. now in the freedom caucus,

that's another story. how this plays out and whether it becomes a lawsuit or any litigation of whether ohio state's investigation that they find any wrongdoing will matter. now seems to matter to the people of ohio, ohio state university and the freedom caucus. do i think the speem aker's racs wrapped up in this. nothing in politics happens by itself. i'm not giving a conspiracy theory. as far as the republican party and the republican votes, he's going to win in november. that will dispel some of the republican concerns of this and whether he was in charge of it or condoned it, which no one thinks he did as a star, winner in the wrestling competitions. so i get the story, it's an uncomfortable story to talk about. it's an uncomfortable thing. but -- i'm not familiar with the wrestling world or what goes on

in these saunas, but at the end of the day, his political future is pretty safe. >> there is something about it that is reminiscent of roy moore. the base of the party doesn't care about pretty serious allegations that involve children. he's accusing those who are bringing this out, he's attacking them. he's attacking the accusers and he's also claiming that it's politically motivated and that it all has to do with the mueller probe. it feels roy mooresque. what's going on in the base of the republican party that allegations against children are dismissed out of hand by the party of conservative christianity. it is a weird claim. >> i'm not going to classify 18, 19, 20, 21-year-old men as children. second of all, there were consequences in the base. there were consequences in the roy moore -- there were. republicans stayed home and didn't go vote. >> he got beat.

>> moore one overwhelmingly. it's just that more democrats voted. >> they did in the primary. as the information kale out and got greater, he was beat in a place that no one should have lost a u.s. senate seat and certainly jeff sessions seat [ overlapping talking ]. >> more -- if you break down the race, we should make it clear, jim moore is not accused of sexually abusing anyone. it isn't the same as roy moore. in the case of roy moore, he overwhelmingly won republicans. just that they were more democrats than independents. >> he certainly did lose the u.s. senate seat and that had a lot to do it. >> do you think jordan will have consequences for being alleged to have known about it and not done anything? >> i don't see the similarities between the two. i think that jimmy will certainly be successful in the fall. he will be a player in the freedom caucus and how this turns out. the ohio state investigation, i

think, will probably put some sunlight on this issue. but, again, i'm not willing to condemn the congressman at this time. we'll see how it plays out. but it is suspect to me all of this is out as soon as jimmy starts really making a move towards the speaker's chair. >> well, we'll -- i guess we'll continue to cover this and see how it plays out. katon dawson will be back in the next hour.

let's say i'm debating po pocahont pocahontas, right? i promise you all do this. you know the little kits they sell on television for $2. learn your heritage. we will take that little kit and say, but we have to do it gently. because we're in the me too generation. we have to be very gentle. we will say, i will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by trump, if you take the test and it says you're an indian. >> welcome back to "am joy." the same day donald trump mocked senator elizabeth warren along with the movement me too. bill scheidt was named the white house deputy chief for communications. you will oversee the entire white house press operation and report directly to the

president. he resigned as president of fox news amid allegations that he enabled a culture of sexual a harassment. he was never accused of sexual harassment himself, but several women at fox news say that they were aware of the behavior and turned a blind eye. shine has denied the allegations. shine is the fifth communications chief since trump took office with revachling a chaotic operation. gabriel sherman is joining me. eric bow letter of share blue media. thank you all for being here. gabe, bill shine was at fox for 20 years, he's a good friend and former producer of sean hannity, has promoted a co-president in august a month before the other was ousted.

it quotes you saying the leadership anger many at fox news. now, of course goes on elevated by a chief executive. shine will enjoy continued leadership by another means. to say that the norms which were litigated in 2017 and the norms litigated at large at the moment by way of the me too movement are being ignored by the white house. what do you make of this hire? >> that's a striking of great synopsis of this issue. his hire was an act of controlling by this president to show that the world that he's not going to abide by this changing culture in any sort of standards of propriety in the workplace and elevate the guy who was roger ails' right hand man who i've reported was intimately involved in covering up instances of harassment.

he's now leading one of the top figures in the federal government. >> you had john kelly go to bat for porter who was accused of abuse, alleged allegations of abuse. he's now out of the white house. you had donald trump, who has 19 accusers of his own of sexual harassment, in a lawsuit with one of them. the article talks about the white house as sort of a space space from the me too movement saying we don't have to pay attention to that movement here. here we can still be mad men. >> that's why he got elected. he was going to create the safe space for the angry white men. the fact that the white house is run by a sexual predator who oversaw a staff of sexual predators in a bizarre way makes perfect sense. it's trolling. but it's so destructive, right? it's sending a signal that none of this other stuff matters. to me, the reason they're hiring bill shine, i see politically it

as they're preparing for a looming battle to save the trump presidency. they understand the manafort trial and the investigations, they won't need just a supportive conservative in the media. they need a palace guard weaponized that's going to be willing to attack and try to destroy institutions of our democracy. i think hiring bill shine along with a message about the me too movement doesn't matter is sending a signal we're going to war against america. >> this is the dream of richard nixon and roger ails to create a state media to insulate the president that nixon thought would have saved him from watergate. >> i was talking to a trump adviser and says bill shine doesn't have experience and what do you mean, he ran fox news. there's an open acknowledgment amongst trump inner circles that fox news is a communications apparatus, not a media one. >> gretchen carlson who is -- she was the first to come out and get out there and tell her

truth, she filed a lawsuit against roger ails in july of 2016 claiming her dismissal came after she refused sexual advances by ails. she tweeted this. she's unhappy. she said this, the hire, on the two-year anniversary eve of filing my harassment suit, giving women a voice letting them know you can be believed. to stand up and speak you have up and say enough is enough. life works in mysterious ways and she has to be -- owen darla, bill shine's wife got to spew crap about me without any repercussions but women harassed can't say s. your say on this merger of fox and state? >> it further shows that not only does donald trump, who also by the way, when rob porter was on his way out of the white house called him a very fine man. not only does donald trump protect, promote and reward abusers, but he has to be dismissive of the me too

movement, joy. this movement is so powerful. it has brought down some of the most powerful men in this country. donald trump knows that it could very well bring him down too. he's an accused sexual abuser of women as well. >> tiffany, in the normal political world, attacking the me too movement by name and mocking it and mocking elizabeth warren saying he's going to gently apply a dna test to her, which is weird and creepy, that would normally be politically perilous. for trump, it isn't. he's doing it and the crowd is cheering. >> they have given the internet comments section voice in the oval office. that's why he was able to champion huge crowds and people to cheer him on. he speaks for the morally corrupt and morally bankrupt and the politically ignorant. they feel like he's a hero. i want to quote my friend and say frankenstein was the doctor and not the monster. trump is the munster that fox

news helped create. bill shine can control anger to have a contract. this is a president he won't be able to control. i'm not sure he wants to. at that rally, bill shine was there with him on the side cheering him on. there's the whole tweets from his wife. his wife tweeted out very racist things. we have to challenge the media to not be fooled. the media posed the question is bill shine's wife a racist. that question has been asked and answered as evidence by her twitter feed. this is trump's base, this is who they elected. it's not going to sway them. we can't get distracted by this either. brags about sexually assaulting women. would bring in a fixer and perpetuate that kind of behavior in the highest office of the land. >> let's answer that question. bill shine's -- trump sees him

in a way as talent. his base wants that safe space for the kind of communication, the kind of speech. he has an immigration policy right now that's including denaturalization. denaturalizing immigrants in the military. there is no incentive really for bill shine to rein that in, wasn't it? >> it wasn't bringing in talent. it was keeping them in line loyal to ails. bill shine was sean hannity's produc producer. rose up from the right wing side of -- he's an angry white man himself in touch with the base of the -- doubling down donald trump is going to only speak to the base. he's brought in a guy that programmed television for the base for 20 years. that's an indication that he's making no effort at all to mod late as he goes into the mid terms. >> you had steve bannon in the white house, eric and you talked

about the breitbartization of the white house, the alt right. we know what that is. steve miller is still pushing a really aggressively anti-just explicitly anti-brown policy. now you have this, the next step. we're also -- we don't care about the me too movement. we're bringing the guy in from fox. i wonder now if you can really talk about a separation between right wing media and this white house. >> this is the phase 2 of the trump presidency. the first phase was year one, we thought he was kind of hiring some independent people and he got rid of all them. now he's surrounded by sycophants. there's not a day in the next year bill shine will have the guts to tell him no. [ overlapping talking ]. >> he was unhirable anywhere else. he was toxic. too toxic for fox news. >> never too toxic for the white

house. the idea that bill shine will be playing 3-d chess is a fantasy. the only strategy of the white house is they react to trump's pathological lying on a daily basis. again, the communications job is a joke. trump is the communications director. again, i think they're sort of girding for this -- >> that was shine's role at fox. he would sit in the office and sort of chortle along. he was the yes man to ails. now he will be the yes man to donald trump. >> tiffany, then, the strategy on the other side. the communication against that, if you had seamless communication between fox and the white house, it's sort of one singular operation, i wonder if on the other side, if the democrats have sort of started to think about programmatically on the hill, what is their response to that? >> i would challenge democrats to do better. you have a faction of the party who tries hard to walk the middle of the road and appeal to the -- talk to the people who

are open and willing to receive your message. it's really a disservice to the fox viewers. when you step back and look at a lot of the issues, like the tariffs are a good example, when you step back and look at this working class that became exclusive to white people, there are people of color who share the same challenges as the white working class. i mean, really the real power brokers are the consumers themselves. people have to stop getting information from this one often frequently slanted source outlet that they use and start reading papers. i'm on tv. i don't want to tell people to turn off the tv. you have to challenge yourself to have intellectual curiosity instead of looking at the idiot box as people call it. your beliefs reconfirmed. i would challenge everybody to do that. democrats, i can't say it enough, joy, i mean, we've seen them fail at the messaging game too many times. they will have a very intellectual argument that's packaged in an intellectual way and they'll say -- runoff with

the obamacare or they made teachers the enemy. they made teachers out to be fat cats in the fight in 2016 and 2012 when they targeted unions. republicans have to do a better job of a simple message hence i message. >> donald trump pretty much only does fox news and fox business in terms of interviews. he's given four interviews to nbc and cnbc. after that lester holt interview maybe he thought better of doing that again. he's done zero for cnn. he has the feud with cnn. the media has a challenge now too. now donald trump has called himself a -- he referred to the white house as the set, i think. >> now his media entities is merging with an actual one. so what does the media do about it? >> it's really scare. we also have to call him out. it's been over a year of donald trump's blatant sexism, racism,

white nationalism. you still see democrats and people in the mainstream media asking, is donald trump racist? is donald trump sexist? so i think we need to call it out for what it is and i don't think there's any question that he is. i think the media needs to call him out. i think the dems, i can't believe it's saying this. need to take a messaging lesson from not only donald trump but the right in general. we need to get better about our messaging. >> good advice from this great panel. gabe sherman and eric bowler. thank you very much. we'll be back. coming up, michael avenatti on the will he or won't he speculation. maybe he can give advice on messaging and donald trump. he's good at that. possibilities than ever before. and american express has your back every step of the way- whether it's the comfort of knowing help is just a call away with global assist. or getting financing to fund your business. no one has your back like american express.

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welcome back. will he or won't he? not will he run for president as he hinted on twitter. though wouldn't you like to know. the burning question is i would take a bullet president cohen -- >> his first loyalty lies with family and country and not with the president. his seeming change of heart comes as cohen hired a new legal team, including bill clinton white house counsel, clin -- davis. attorney for stormy daniels in her lawsuit against cohen joins me now. thank you for being here. i'll start by asking you what you think the significance is of

michael cohen, a, saying he's only loyal to family and country and b, hiring this new legal team including lanny davis. >> i don't think it has a lot of significance. what we saw in the george stephanopoulos interview was an attempt to change the narrative about what he's all about. to begin to lay the foundation for him being a patriot and someone that loves his country, while at the same time remaining loyal to the president. he's basically sitting on the fence, in my view, joy, in trying to have it both ways. the american people are smarter than this. i think they're going to see through it. there's nothing stopping cohen from coming clean right now and disclosing what he knows about the president, what he knows about his business dealings and whether the president may be culpable of criminal conduct. there's nothing stopping him from doing it right now. and this whole idea that michael cohen is going to, quote, wait

to see what the charges are is completely against or the opposite of being a patriot and loving the country. >> let's go into the questions about whether or not the case that you're involved in, the stormy daniels case could wind up migrating into the mueller probe. he was on abc this morning saying that the cohen investigation relating to stormy daniels won't go anywhere because mueller hasn't picked it up. take a listen. >> we have no reason to believe he did anything wrong. the president did nothing wrong with him. mueller himself indicated that there's nothing here because he would have given it away. he hasn't taken it back. every indication we have is the president is not involved in that. i'm hoping that michael is able to clear himself. what was done to him is really unfair. i know he's being sensible and calm and trying to say the prosecutors did nothing wrong. invading a lawyer's office, i don't know. george, that doesn't seem right to me. >> giuliani is a former

prosecutor. what do you make of that? >> dazed and confused really. makes it up as he goes along. had mr. mueller retained control of the $130,000 payment, giuliani and trump would be shouting from the rooftops that he was exceeding the charge for which he was hired, mr. mueller was hired to do. exceeding what he was expected to be looking into. rudy knows that mr. mueller could not maintain control over that piece of the investigation in light of what he was charged to do. so that's absolutely absurd and has no basis whatsoever. like so many other things rudy says on national television. >> one of the other things he said on national television, he can't say, he wasn't able to say whether or not donald trump promised to reimburse michael cohen for the payment that he made to your client, stormy daniels. take a listen. >> the president did not promise

an advance to reimburse cohen for that? >> that i don't know. whether there was an understanding between them, i think cohen knew he'd be reimbursed. didn't seem to be any trouble in working out the reimbursement with the accountants. >> what do you think of that? >> well, i think rudy is lying. let me just be as clear as possible. rudy is lying. it is impossible for rudy giuliani to have been serving as the lawyer for this president for this amount of time and to not know the answer to that question. he knows what the answer is. he knows the answer is yes. donald trump agreed to reimburse michael cohen. because otherwise, he would unequivocally state that the answer was no. so i think this tells us everything we need to know, joy. and it's consistent with what i've been saying would ultimately be proven for months. >> there's the other issue, which is what actually was found in the raids on michael cohen's office, including what

investigators, according to buzz feed, were able to piece together from some shredded documents, including a $62,500 wire transfer from march into a first republic bank account controlled by cohen. does the broid i case intersect with the stormy daniels case in your view? >> i think it does, joy. i think it all goes towards this whole idea of michael cohen being at the center of these hush payments on behalf of mr. trump and others around him. all of this comes together. i like buzz feed, i think they do a nice job. i have sing concerns relating to whether those are actually the documents that were found in the shredder or not. but putting those aside, i think all of this is tied together ultimately. >> donald trump has said that regardless, he's tweeted that he doesn't think cohen will ever flip. he tweeted about that saying

that i don't see michael doing that, blah-blah-blah. vanity fair has written a piece talking about the change in cohen's thinking that he sees himself as a historic figure. cohen's friends have begun suggesting he can change his narrative by cooperating with the russia investigation to effectively become the john dean of his generation. every article was calling him a thug, a moron, someone all mobbed up. one friend of cohen's told me he has all these people telling me he could change the course of mid terms of 2020. is that enough of an incentive for michael cohen -- because nothing else gotten him to do it before. what do you make of the idea of being this generation's john dean may be what pushes him over the edge? >> as i've been saying for months, there's no question michael cohen is going to film. the only question is when, not if. that's first of all. second of all, as it relates to

donald trump putting michael cohen on an island, which is effectively what he's done, i think that was a graver roar, a strategically stupid mistake on donald trump's part. look, i think what this boils down to is reality is setting in for michael cohen. the reality that he's in a bad place and about to be in a world of hurt if he doesn't do the right thing. joy, you can't wait to be arrested to do the right thing and then claim you're a patriot. you can't wait to be indicted and then do the right thing and talk about how you love your country. if you're a true patriot and if you truly love the country, you do the right thing now for the sake of the country. you don't do the right thing for the sake of saving your own butt. >> before we go, are you running for president? >> you know, joy, i don't know yet. i mean, i've rung the alarm bell. i think the democratic party needs to put forward some candidates that can actually

beat donald trump. i think that's a very short list. you know, this is a very effective campaigner. he's a guy that should not be underestimated. if the democratic party makes the same mistake that others have made, namely running 15 experienced candidates, politicians against him, we should not be surprised when the outcome is the same as it was in 2016. so whoever runs this guy better be a street fighter, they better have charisma and better be in for a brutal campaign, period. >> very quickly, whether it's you running or somebody else, what's the most effectively message against donald trump? >> the truth. >> all right. i hope you'll let us know on this program if you decide to actually jump into the race. michael avenatti. thank you for being here. >> thanks, joy. up next, the reaction to the supreme court nomination. stay with us.

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what guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. let's get an update on the breaking news. divers in thailand rescued four of the 12 boys who have been trapped with their soccer coach in a cave for more than two weeks. the boys are getting medical attention as crews prepare to

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republicans are holding four lottery tickets and all of them are winners. if you're a conservative or republican, the four people named, particularly thomas hardiman, i'm glad he's on the list. are all winners. everyone should embrace the

picks. lindsey graham is urging fellow republicans to rally around whoever trump picks as the nominee. expected to make a final decision with a primetime tv announcement tomorrow night. i'm joined by my guests now. let's tart with a piece of lindsey graham sound. this is him talking about what he says is the dilemma for red state democrats. >> this is a nightmare for red state democrats to oppose a highly qualified nominee and all four of these people are highly qualified, been on the court, know what they're doing, mainstream judges. so red state democrats are going to have a hard decision. >> charlie pierce, nate silver said it's not so hard of a decision. they could remain noncommittal and do what they do. if they vote for the nominee, then the two red staters vote for them. then they try to support the

next entrant. what do you think? >> well, first of all, senator graham is going to have to decide whether they're mainstream or they're conservative republicans. because they can't be both. the conservative republican position on judicial nominations is not the mainstream. it may be the mainstream in the republican party now. second of all, i'd like to -- i really do wish we could get the actual politics out of the way on this one. this is a decision that's going to change the face of american -- certainly of the supreme court and the american law for the next 40 years. >> yeah. >> and as much as i'm fascinated by the back and forth on the confirmation process, as we said, i think, earlier in the show, there isn't a lot of democrats can do actively. >> right. >> go ahead. >> sorry about that. finish your thought. >> no. i mean, there's nothing democrats can do actively now that -- they can't filibuster this thing.

as somebody said, denying a quorum woks for a while. it's hard to see anybody sustaining that. frankly, i think it would be harder on people like hide camp and mansion to deny a quorum. denying the quorum, you get in the hit for tat of mayor garland. >> it's hard to imagine democrats sustaining that for very long. they tried this previously. >> i played this sound for you in the last hour, katokaton, i to play it again. this is leonard leo who made the list for the supreme court picks: this was him denying that roe was a litmus test it get on the list. >> is it fair to say that anyone who made it on to your list is likely to be an opponent of roe v. wade. >> no. first of all, nobody really knows. we've been talking about this for 36 years, going back to the

nomination of sandra o'connor. after that 36-year period, we only had a single individual who said he would overturn roe. i think it's a scare tactic and rank speculation more than anything else. >> why do republicans do that? why do they pretend it isn't a litmus test, when everyone knows what it is? >> probably 90% of the platforms of the republican party each state has a caveat in there about pro-life. it is the base of our party, it is what shows up devote. it is what supports our candidates and we all understand that. at the end of the day, he has validity. in 36 years, it hasn't been overturned. i would project it won't be overturned. we have a lot of business to take care of. while we're having this conversation, donald trump is a winner. >> hold on, katon. >> very quickly. what he said he was going to do, explicitly said he would put

someone on the court to overturn roe v. wade. one of the beeves with the party, with george w. bush, they say they're going to do, they don't do t the base of the party, he touts that he's going to do it. he says he's going to do it. isn't the incentive that the religious right can have the end of roe. so, of course, he's going to try to do it. >> there's realities here. the president also poured some cold water on it to say he was going to try to turn it back to the states. >> that's the same thing. 18 states would immediately make it illegal. >> mine would be one of them. at the end of the day, you move to other places, do what you need to do. >> that's not simple for everybody who is poor. what do you think the political consequences would be to outlaw abortion. >> first of all, i don't think that's going to happen.

that sort of caught us by surprise. in the day the realistic thing is, i go back to other panelists. i think that the president is going to have his pick. i think it's going to satisfy the base and we'll move on and move past this and put another supreme court justice on it. president obama told us, elections have consequences. it's the president's pick. senator graham has thrown down oon that and voted for two liberal justices because he couldn't find that they were unfit to serve in office. i think that's what the two senators, senator from alaska and new england will -- are going to say. that's what we hope they did. >> merritt garland didn't excite the base of the democratic party. there wasn't a huge fight over it, until mitch mcconnell decided to hold the seat empty. you had the senators on the republican side saying they would hold that seat for four years open if hillary clinton

became president of the united states. they would never let her seat a supreme court justice. the two parties do not come at the supreme court in the same way. >> right. this is a false that republicans like to use comparing garland with -- i want to respectful respectfully -- they're pro-fetus. it's an error to call them pro life. what lindsey graham said when they had four lottery winners. that may be true. but if they're all lottery ticket winners, we're certainly the losers, the american public. should any of the justices get confirmed. i think this highlights the point that when mcconnell and when the republicans killed the filibuster, they changed the senate and that essentially says over 140 million people, we don't care about your thought or your perspective. i think that's a dangerous territory that we're in right now because we can't trumpet this america first and the

democracy mantra and under this administration, every branch of government is chipping away at the core democratic values. you have to challenge voters. i don't see a lot of leverage from democrats to stop this court, unfortunately. you have to focus on the house and the senate. you can't have a trump administration control congress and the courts. that is disastrous for the american public. i would argue that none of these justices are qualified. if they're thinking about overturning roe v. wade. it's not just that. the other pol sthas could inevitably land before this court. >> you do see -- they talk about the fact in many ways you're seeing adrift of a government, a house, senate and court that are far to the right of the average american, the american public. the american public is for immigration. the court could swing wildly against it. the american public supports religious pluralism. the court could swing widely

against it. on voting rights, we used to think of it as broadly supported. even john roberts has been against the idea of the sort of -- [ inaudible ] affirmative action, on and on and on, you could see a court very, very far to the right of the american people and democrats, i'm not sure that the democratic base is alarmed enough about it to vote on that basis. republicans vote on the court. what is it the democrats are doing wrong that they don't vote based on the court? >> not like we were talking about earlier, there's a core messaging problem. this is my nightmare come true that donald trump not only gets to pick a supreme court justice but it's a boone to his base. can we stop with the gaslighting. donald trump has made clear that he is a president for his base. he's definitely going to pick a candidate that will overturn rochlt versus wade.

it's not only terrifying, but it also demonstrates that this base, donald trump's base is not pro-life. exactly to what tiffany said. they're pro fetus. they don't care about a living woman, breathing woman's decision whether she wants to have a pregnancy or not. i think it's terrifying in america and abroad. i think it's sexist that people are throwing up, he has a woman candidate in there as well. a woman candidate is not always necessarily a woman's candidate. >> i think what we learned here, when 60% of eligible voters don't vote in mid terms, 40% control the country. hopefully people will vote. >> thank you all very much. coming up at the top of the hour, the latest on the young soccer players rescued from a cave in thailand this morning. up next, trump speaks so good. out of nowhere. s you do, too, but not in time.

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your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one. why the hell do so many people come? i don't think -- it's true. i have broken more elton john records. he seems to have a lot of

records. i, by the way, i don't have a musical instrument, i don't have a guitar or an organ. no organ. elton has an organ. really? we do without, like, the musical instruments. this is the only musical -- the mouth. and hopefully, the brain attached to the mouth, right? the brain, more important than the mouth is the brain. the brain is much more important. >> donald trump once famously said, quote, i have the best words. well, at a rally in montana this week that you just saw a bit of, he seemed to say all the words, whether they made sense or not. so we called an expert to decode trump's words. this is one of my favorite things to do. i do feel like there's this disconnect. we just heard donald trump say those words.

and we were just talking in the break about how he performs it with the performance, the crowd loves it and they don't perceive it to be incoherent. but when you read it, he said, "they never say i'm a great speaker. why the hell do so many people come? it's got to be something. i guess he likes my policy." then he goes into elton john and he says, he tries to explain -- "we don't need it. we don't have an organ. we break all this -- without like the musical instruments. this is the only musical -- the mouth. and hopefully the brain attached to the mouth, right, the brain more important than the mouth." i don't understand it. >> i do. >> why do his base think of that as not just great, but presidential? >> you know, a lot of this is because if you're processing language, the first thing that gets into your brain is the tone, is the music, then comes the content. so a lot of what he's all about is just the melody of it, the punchiness of it, the air about

it. and for many people, that's compelling, so that seems articulate. that's external the way he thinks of these things. so, in a way, when he's talking about a musical instrument like elton john and the organ, which is interesting. i always thought of him as a piano player. remember, "benny and jets"organ? >> the piano, yeah. >> but really what he's thinking is that there is a kind of music, it's an instrument, and it's not about running a noun and a verb together, it's about singing a kind of song. in other words, he thinks of that as a kind of articulateness, and i hate to say that it is, because it actually has snookered that great many people into thinking that he's saying things. >> there is a thing in republican party politics where being the -- not being erudite as a speaker is seen as a speaker. it was the same with george w. bush, seeing that he's plainspoken, when he would mangle the language, even the media would see that as authentic and great. he would make up words and

people would think, that's great, it's his lexicon. sarah palin, even the media was enchanted with the way she spoke. and that that is actually seen as a virtue of democrats, where you would see people disparage president obama for being almost too erudite and too articulate. >> i think there's a fine line. i think there's a sense to be too articulate is to be distant, is to be the aegghead. that's part of why stevenson did not become president. but we have a very new situation, where you can be aggressively, fragrantly, proudly inarticulate, as in basically violating the language on purpose and looking up with a smile daily and have that be part of why you become president of the united states. sarah palin was the beginning with that kind of word ambrosia and the fact that she was still taken seriously by people with iqs over 80. and trump ends up being the culmination of that kind of thing. i really think that future presidential candidates should try not to be too articulate. because part of that just our

american anti-intellectual quality. but it also shows that content when we process language can be less important than just the tone. it's the first thing that hits. it's the layer of us that is still an ape. and one can take advantage of that. >> yeah. but it's interesting, because in the past, people like john f. kennedy, people like president obama really captivated with their language. it was the way that president obama spoke that actually was what captivated. it's interesting the same country can be captivated by the one and the other. i want to do one more. because donald trump really is invested in the idea that he's super intelligent and he's also a greater writer. he wrote a tweet they later deleted and reposted with the correct spelling of "poor," but he said, after writing many best-selling books -- he's never written a book, tony schwartz wrote it -- and somewhat priding myself on the ability to write, the media like to pour --

p-o-u-r -- my arts. j.k. rowling's response to it was, ha-ha ha-ha. >> he's basically communicating on the fly. a lot of us like little spelling mistakes while we're tapping something along. but he's president and sends things out without reflecting. >> you could have played that tweet on a trumpet without even the words. and so what it is, is the first president who doesn't give us statements that he's thought about. instead, he just spills and he considers that to be normal. >> and his base absolutely loves it. john i love talking to you about this stuff. thank you so much for being here. some quick housekeeping before we go. this weekend is the essence festival in new orleans. i'm super jealous i'm not there. however, one our good friends is there representing. check it out, go, rev! let's check it out. yes, yes, slay. look at rev! slay! come on now. y'all don't know nothing about that. i also want to give a shout-out to my pal, my road dog, my producer who is leaving us.

how dare you, ian! how dare you leave me! there he is down there in texas on the desk we bedazzled with po post-it notes and here we are trying to escape from one of oursome adventures, being trapped in an airport, making the sad face. ian, i love you, i adore you, you're one of the best producers i've ever worked with. i'm super mad at your new boss, but we'll all be friends in the end. love you and will miss you. more "a.m. joy" after the break.

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that is our show for today. thanks for watching. "a.m. joy" will be back next weekend. up next, my friend, alex witt. >> you know what we're going to go to. we're going to talk about what's going on in thailand. hello to all of you. i am alex witt. high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. and here's what's happening right now. better than expected. that is the official word heading from the effort to -- heading the effort to rescue those 12 boys from a cave in thailand. the very first phase, it is now finished. >> this is an operation that could take up to 24 hours. >> it was taking six hours to go out and five hours to come back. so it was an 11-hour round trip. >> reporter: they've already. checked over by a full medical team that was waiting for them. >> they are the first of the 13 to be freed. >> how those boys are doing