that's it for this hour. see you again at noon eastern. stay right where you are. it's time for a.m. joy with joy reid. >> will we be talking about metalings. i will bring that up. you never know what happens. i will absolutely firmly ask the question. >> good morning. and welcome to a.m. joy. whether or not donald trump asks vladimir putin about election metaling when they meet on monday, completely misses the point. it's no longer a matter of whether trump confronts putin about attacking election in 2016. it's about the fact that once again, we have evidence on the table that they did. the case was laid out by deputy attorney general rod rosenstein on friday when he announced the indictment of 12 russian intelligence officers accused of hacking democratic party organizations and hillary clinton's campaign with the intent to interfere in the

election. one of the most stunning parts of the indictment is the timeline. according to the indictment, while the spear fishing operation against the dnc, the d triple c and clinton campaign chairman john podesta began in march of 2016. on page 7 of this indictment, it reads that russian operatives attempted to access e-mail accounts used by hillary clinton's personal office for the first time on july 27, 2016. that date is significant because it happens to be the same day that donald trump said this. >> i will tell you this, russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. >> meanwhile the white house says the putin summit is still on. even as democrats demand trump cancel. >> if he and his team are not

willing to make the subject of this indictment of russian interference a top priority in the meeting, then the meeting should be canceled. >> i wouldn't trust what he says there. maybe they're plotting. he should certainly cancel any meeting with others present. >> joining me now. author of the plot to destroy democracy, sara kensi. author of the view from flyover country. thanks to all of you. malcolm, have to go to your first. significant date when donald trump gave that press conference, russia if you're listening. the indictment then states that the conspirators who are indicted now on july 27, that same day, attempted after hours to spearfish for the first time e-mail accounts at a domain name hosted by a third-party provider and used by clinton's office.

literally the same day. you were on our show that weekend after that happened discussing really what we're all looking at now. what is your view is the significant of getting this information into an indictment. >> well, what the indictment does is it solidifies into the justice system a lot of intelligence that we knew had to exist. you recall i wrote a book just a few weeks after that where i projected these teams existed and what their manpower, strength and operations would be and boom. they exist. we know they exist now right down to the names of the individuals who went in on the mid watch section and actually started drafting the e-mails and documents to support donald trump's contention from the day before. you know, we've talked about this a lot on this show. >> yes. >> about is trump a winning asset of russia, an unwitting asset. clearly on that day, he became a witting asset. he knew russia was working in

his interest and he tasked them out to a certain extent with orders. russia, picked up that mantle. they executed those orders and there are other examples that occurred all throughout august and september on releases of state documents, right after trump made speeches. so this is really that intelligence that i've warned you about existed out there, turning into evidence. and here we are. >> absolutely. nick, one of the -- there are a lot in this indictment. if people haven't read it yet. one of the enduring kind of questions that is in the minds of people are who are the americans that that these russian intelligence officers either in their own regard or when they created this 2.0 pretend person to pawn off what they were doing on to. so let's go back to time lean really quick. element 11 for producers. you had the timeline. march the russians start getting access to john podesta's e-mails. then in june, trump tower

meeting with the kremlin connected lawyer. promises dirt on hillary clinton. on july 21, donald trump gives his rnc acceptance speech. july 22 stolen e-mails from the rnc start to come out. july 25, democratic convention begins. july 27 trump says russia if you're listening. they start trying to go after clinton's personal server. and then in october, you've got julian assange, et cetera. in between that timeline you're seeing up there. in between that time, in june when the dnc finally -- they know they've been attacked. they announce that their servers have been attacked. they say publically. then russians shift strategy. create on or about june 14, 2016. publically announces it had been hacked by russian government actors in response the conspirators created the online persona and falsely claimed to be loan romanian hacker to

undermine the responsibilities. then starts talking to people as if it's the hacker. they talk to a candidate, u.s. congress. they talk to a person in regular member. they talk to a u.s. reporter. are those americans also in jeopardy of being indicted. >> they could be. the crime that is charged here is conspiracy. a conspiracy is an agreement to commit a crime. the scope of that crime is char charged in this indictment, not only the hacking into the dnc and theft of the documents, it's the staging of those documents and using those documents to help donald trump get elected. >> yes. >> and there is no way that these documents, which were so fine tuned and released on very specific times. for example, one of the items you didn't mention was the release of certain documents after the hollywood access tape. >> right. >> what you had was the trump campaign using the russians as what would normally be called a

boiler room operation, which is set up to basically rebut allegations that go out there from the other side. so there you have the russians doing it. there is no way, no how that the russians would have enough political sense and have enough feel for what the game on the ground is. >> yes. >> without having spotters and people in the trump campaign directing this. and if you look at this indictment, it is filled with incredible details about the russians. i mean, this is not gathered just based on forensic evidence. >> sure. >> and they know. they know who the americans are. they know who is going to be indicted. and they're in the process now of putting that evidence together so they can convict these people beyond a reasonable doubt. >> so having worked as double agent and dealt with the russians. i want to get your commentary on how this would work. they get caught. the intelligence officers then pretend to be this person who poses in a romanian loan hacker.

they can say this is the person doing it. this is who is communicating with the americans. you have ambiguous for communicating. speculation this that is roger stone. guccifer. roger stone last night on cnn responded to the idea that he might be that u.s. person. take a listen. >> i certainly acknowledge that i was in touch with trump campaign officials, and i have testified under oath to the house intelligence committee that i certainly had a 24 word exchange with the persona guccifer 2.0 over twitter. . i think i probably am the person referred to. the reason i'm not charged in this indictment is because i received nothing from the defendants. i passed nothing on from the

defendants. there's no evidence of collusion or conspiracy or coordination. >> so how would that normally work? if guccifer 2.0 has now somebody in regular contact with the campaign, would that be as blatant as passing documents to him or revealing in some way who they are. >> that is to go with what nick was saying, i think what we're seeing with this indictment is support elements. we have yet to see the main act and look, i worked against the gru specifically. i can tell you, joy, unequivocally, the gru, russian intelligence, the crown jewels of any intelligence service, specifically the russians, are people. we're seeing here with the idea or coordination where donald trump goes on tv and they start hacking hillary clinton's e-mail, that coordination didn't happen in that moment. that coordination, that agreement, that discussion, the command in control. all the elements had to be in place to decide to do that happened long before. that would have required human contact.

that would have required some level of coordination that doesn't happen with guccifer in roger stone. that happens with human beings talking to each other. joy, i am absolutely convinced even more so today after reading this indictment that there are americans who were involved. that will be the third act. there's going to evidence and where mueller is driving, not unwitting assets. american who is aided the russians in harming the united states by interfering with our election or were acting under direction by the russian intelligence. that's the end point. you ask me about how this will work. the russians only get in a room with someone with two reasons. knowing two things about them. one they have something of worth to russia. the second is the belief they can fully control that person. i suspect we're going to find people that fit those two bills. >> we're not just americans because you also have organization one. thought to be wikileaks. nonamerican organization that according to the indictment a message gets sent to guccifer 2.0. read from the indictment.

on or about june 222016. organization one sent a private message to guccifer 2.0 to send any new material stolen from the dnc here for us to review. it will have a much higher impact than what you are doing. on or about july 6; 2016, organization one added if you have anything hillary related, we want it in the next two days preferable. because the dnc, democratic national convention, is approaching. she will solidify bernie supporters behind her after. responded okay i see. organization one then explains, we think trump has a 25% chance of winning against hillary so conflict between bernie and hillary is interesting. so now yo have this organization one which could be wikileaks actively saying give us the information so we can use it to split bernie and hilly at the convention. >> i don't think that's surprising. i think they're trying to kp

exacerbate. targeting the person in question and possibly you know trying in some sense to cover the tracks. actually coming from the creme le kremlin and not from wikileaks. i don't think they thought hillary had a small chance of losing. i think they knew trump was likely to win. they put all sorts of stuff in play to make sure it's possible. it's a multiyear plan. working on the goal for a long time. a way to give cover to this story r story. it did exacerbate tensions, but it was also something to point to after the election. hillary wasn't able to gain the support of sanders voters, which isn't true. majority of sanders supporters did vote for hillary in the end, but it's something they could use to be a bit more plausible. >> excellent. nick i'm going to come back to

you on this. the other thing that really frightens people when they think about what happened with the election and it doesn't come up much. it's constantly denied for some reason by the fbi. i'm going to ask all the panels about it. the idea they accessed board election information. just really quick from the indictment. in or around july 2016. one of the indictmented people. hacked the website of a state board of elections and stole information related to approximately 500,000 voters including names, addresses, partial social security numbers, dates of birth. driver's license numbers. in august 2016, the co-conspirators hacked into the computer of u.s. vendors that used software to verify voter information. that is ongoing and 2016 is coming up. congressional elections coming up and they got in the voter rolls. >> it's even worse than that. what you're not seeing in that indictment is the fbi's and investigator's inability to really understand what the

russians did once they got into these systems. we're dealing with state systems. we're dealing with computer systems that aren't very good at creating audit trails. so you don't really know in a lot of the systems. a lot of companies don't have this where you can tell when someone hacks in. what did they look at. what did they manipulate. what did they take. we do not know. not going to show up in this indictment. i don't think the investigators can give us an answer to this. as to whether or not they change votie ining rolls. whether or not they changed votes, we don't know. >> or they could do it again. >> exactly. and the problem is the states are not doing anything about that computer systems. the federal government is not doing anything about the computer systems. there is no one organizing this in a way that protects the sankty of vote there and this country. very quickly. donald trump is denying. he tweeted today. blaming it on the obama administration. they're saying the indictment

took place. i'm not going to read the tweet. blaming it on the obama administration. the tact he's trying to take. what is you take on that. i seem to recall mitch mcconnell saying no to any joint statement from democrats and republicans at the time in october of 2016. >> yes, look, donald trump is going to say anything to get out from under this. there is a point here with the specificity in the mueller indictment. one of the things that does concern me. we knew this level of detail. it is a legitimate question to ask why couldn't we stop it. it concerns me we're stuck in this partnership that we can't ask that question. no money spent on increasing counter intelligence. no increase in manpower. these are legitimate questions. questions that should be asked in and the american public is owed and answers. to say obama caused this is absurd. >> let's look at the same party talking about impeaching rod rosenstein, actively refused to

allow a bipartisan warning to the american people. that i have at minimum were not willing to stop it actively. >> instead they're going after an fbi agent over his personal e-mails. >> that's what they're spending their time on. >> i want to know, nick, do you expect americans to be indicted very quickly. >> i absolutely do. this is a precursor. this is a coming attraction. i guarantee you it's just a matter of time before robert mueller gets this ducks in a row and you see another indictment on the same conspiracy, but this time it's going to be the americans. >> wow. we will stay tuned. nick, malcolm, thank you. will be back. coming up. trump took one man wrecking ball to world stage once again. more on that, next. [music playing] across the country, we walk. carrying flowers that signify why we want to end alzheimer's disease.

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i didn't criticize the prime minster. i have a lot of respect for the prime minster. unfortunately there was a story done, which was generally fine, but it didn't put in what i said about the prime minster and i said tremendous things. and fortunately we tend to record stories now so we have it for your enjoyment if you would like it. we record what we do with reporters and it's called fake news. we solve a lot of problems with good old recording instrument. >> donald trump up ended everything in his tour this

week. took what can only be described as a wrecking ball to every possible norm of american policy over the last century. blasting american allies, bringing chaos to nato summit and even suggesting the u.s. would withdraw from nato if members didn't increase defense spending. french president says behind closed doors, trump never issued that threat to the nato members faces. things reached peek weirdness during visit with prime minster. when denied making critical comments about brexit strategy, even though those comments were recorded on tape. in an interview with rupert murdoch british owned tabloid. >> i did give teresa, who i like, i did give her views on what she should do and how she should negotiate. and she didn't follow those. i would actually say she probably went the opposite way. i think the deal that she is striking is not what the people voted on. it's a much different deal than the people voted on.

it was not the deal that was in the referendum. >> joining me now is senior adviser. and dana of "the washington post." i want to come back to this weird negative relationship that donald trump seems to have with the female leaders in europe, theresa may and chancellor angela merkel. i want to start with this whole chaos thing. donald trump starts at breakfast getting in huge negative back and forth with the leader of the eu over germany and spending. trump says, let's just play it. let's play sound bite one in brussels on wednesday. >> many countries owe us a tremendous amount of money for many years back where they're delinquent as far as i'm concerned. germany is totally controlled by russia. germany as far as i'm concerned is captive to russia because it's getting so much of its energy from russia. >> okay. that's not true. they don't you us money. >> they don't you us money.

that is not how it works. it's amazing how often that expression comes up. that's not how it works when donald trump says something about foreign policy. should they be spending more, yes. have they committed to spending more. they already did. they've already committed that long before donald trump came on the political stage. they've agreed there is a deadline by which time. >> it's a target. we're going to buput that up on the screen. shows ally defense spending in 2014 versus 2018 estimates. not delinquent. the light blue is% of gdp each spent in 2014. goal is to devote 2% by 2024. it's a long-term goal. >> yes, it's a long-term goal. they have all committed to doing it. they will spend more money. that's not the money that's -- that's not money that's going to come into american pockets. let's be scleclear about that. the other thing that he said, and that could be away, he says germany is captive of russia. that is especially humiliating

for angela merkel, a woman who grew up in east germany. if anyone understands what it is like to be a captive of russia, it's angela merkel. to say that is not even a dog whistle. it's a dog trumpet that he's pointing directly at angela merkel. >> at the same time criticizing her over immigration, saying she's letting too many people in germany. >> he said the same thing about europe. said allowed too many immigrants. spoiling european culture. that is classic racist speech. that is the kind of thing the sort of lunatic fringe of the right wing says all the time. >> also empower powers the peop >> the fact that it doesn't seem that our allies in nato really know what to do with trump. they tried appeasing and accommodating him. we remember when he first went to france. through a bill military parade

to watch. he didn't give an order, but got close to it. now macron came out and did the opposite of that. he said no, he denied donald trump's claim that nato allies have agreed to boost spending. trump tried to claim as a victory. he said it's very detailed. confirms the goal of 2024. that is all. also denied that trump ever planned to pull out of nato. doesn't seem they know quite what to do. >> i would say the yureuropean don't know what to do with trump, take a number. we don't know what to do here. you know who else doesn't, the people working for him. in the clip you see more of that, john kelly appearing to be greatly distressed when the president started to attack germany. and then claiming it was because he only got the pastry and cheese and not the full breakfast. the fact of the matter is even his chief of staff has no idea what he's going to say from minute to minute.

people have tried various things. i think macron was humiliated by kissing up to trump. he still got nothing for it. merkel has taken a harder line. gets nothing for it. hard to see how to deal with him. he doesn't know from day-to-day. i think he believed what he said about theresa may on one dade. and he believed it when he said the opposite thing the next day. >> it is interesting. you know, having worked in the state department, it's a challenge as dana said even for his own administration to respond to it. we had nbc news report came out yesterday that the pentagon is now in damage control mode. overall message and phone calls has been the u.s. military bases in their countries will remain open and troop levels in the region will be reduced. having to assure allies we're not going to pull troops out of europe. >> doesn't seem there's new u much intentionality behind antics and words. he says one thing one day. another the next.

it's difficult for allies to understand how they should maneuver their diplomacy and military cooperation accordingly. typically, this is a diplomats will to give something to get something. duds seem allies constantly feel like they need to keep giving giving and not getting anything in return. angela merkel has done. she decided the least she can do now is maintain own dignity. that's the toughest part. how do you maintain your dignity in the face of someone like donald trump who ultimately is looking to upend everything. the idea we have a special relationship with the united kingdom is not a given. something winston churchill started post world war ii. way for the post world war ii order to stand up against the soviet union and russia. we now see that is no longer a given that the united states will be an ally for europe against soviet style tactics. >> seems the relationship he

wants is with vladimir putin, leader of turkey, erdogan. "new york times" writes amid trump chaos, europe sees strategy divide and conquer. more important for the long-term, believe underneath the presidential sarcasm and bluster, there is a strategy to undercut european solidarity and nato to the united states can exercise economic and military power to shape relations with individual countries. do you describe that level of strategic throughing to trump. >> no. the european are right. absence of strategic thinking to my mind is more alarming that the presence. strategic thinking implies there is sort of clear thought process. >> right. >> the absence of a thought process is actually worse. i think we're waiting for the point where the european leaders stop worrying with about this and start actually acting on this. >> what can they do. >> when angela merkel beginning to basically increase the size of her military, when all european leaders begin to

increase the size of their military in anticipation of american pullouts, then we have a serious talk. i don't think we're that for from it. >> i have to go to you on this. now you're this weird thing with trump and female allies. "the washington post" wrote it up that donald trump seems to go out of his way to damage the powerful female allies. angela merkel and theresa may raises questions about relationship with female leaders. one quote from barrage british prime minster theresa may and angela merkel prompted diplomats on both sides of the atlantic. what do you make of it? >> i think this is something again that goes to donald trump's personality. rather than anything broader, thoughtful, strategic effort because the two female leaders that we have in europe right now are germany and the united kingd kingdom. germany under barack obama administration had a very strong military and diplomatic cooperation. and, in fact, under barack obama, the special relationship between the united states was with germany. not with united king don.

under barack obama that the united kingdom started getting threatened with being at the back end of the deal because of the handling of brexit. theresa may is again one of the only female leaders in the world and rather than propping up these women who have faced insure montable odds to be leaders, donald trump goes out of way to do petty things. petty things like throwing a star burst at angela merkel and saying don't say i didn't give you anything. walking ahead of theresa may in her own croountry. these are norms he has no -- praise on male dictators like putin and kim jong-un. >> another parking lot of the article in your paper says the two female leaders have been less willing than others such as emmanuel macron and shinzo abe to cater to ego. saying it's their approach to him that they have been

confrontational. that's not the best way to manage him. >> what do you make of that. >> i don't think there's thea g way to manage him. long before these two leaders, had a problem with strong women. the unfortunate thing is this probably doesn't cost him any support among his base here at home. undermining our relationship with all of europe in the long-term with intelligence and military cooperation, we're going to be seeing this for years to come as he sort of fumbles into this. >> the amazing thing isn't the party of ronald reagan. the base seems to have no problem with this. it's extraordinary. thank you all very much. up next, 12 russians have been indicted in mueller's probe. republicans seem to think the real enemy is an american. american fbi agent. true story. stay with us. and the safey for "most parallel parallel parking job" goes to...

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it wasn't the discovery of your text, mr. strzok, it was the existence of your bias that got your kicked off. >> stating to you it is not my understanding that he kicked me off because of any bias. it was done based on the appearance. if you want to represent what you said accurately i'm happy to answer that question. i don't appreciate what was said being changed. >> i don't appreciate having an fbi agent with unprecedent level of an mouse working on two major investigations during 2016. >> the day before 12 russian intelligence officers were indicted for allegedly metaling in 2016 election, congressional republicans decided the real villan was an american. fbi agent peter strzok. ten hour hearing on thursday, accused strzok of letting personal views influence both the clinton e-mail and russia investigations.

strzok denied the allegation vigorously and made this key point. >> the summer of 2016, i was one of a handful of people who knew the details of russian election interference and it's possible connections with members of the trump campaign. this information had the potential to derail and quite possibly defeat mr. trump, but the thought of expressing that or exposing that information never crossed my mind. >> back with me. let's start with what rudy giuliani had to say after the hearing. he said his testimony was a disgrace. taints the entire mueller witch hunt. all the results of the investigation are fruitful. should be dismissed. having worked at least as a double agent with the fbi. could one fbi agent derail -- you know, launch an entire investigation, obtain an investigation and by himself, bring down a presidential

candidate. is that possible to have done. >> of course not. this is absurd thing. look, joy, i worked very closely with fbi agents. what i can tell you is the only bias i ever saw was actually against the state department. the fbi agents had a tremendous amount of frustration dealing with the state department. they reach a point they wanted to throw out a diplomat and state department would come back and say no. i mention this because hillary clinton was secretary of state. and as head of the state department, i imagine, and i -- that the fbi agents probably carry that an mouse to the state department to hillary clinton. if anything, the bias was against hillary clinton. the allegation that there's bias against trump that would have helped hillary clinton by peter strzok and agents of the fbi, is frankly absurd. no evidence. goes against everything when it comes to sort of how the places skpoer operate and what the people feel. >> as a matter of fact, there was the story that kocame out towards the end of the campaign the fbi in new york was deeply

ain anti-hillary clinton. i want to play a little bit of fbi agent strzok defending himself on the thing that has most animated the republicans who feel that he somehow tried to bring down donald trump's candidacy and that was the we will stop it text. take a listen. >> in terms of the text that we will stop it. you need to understand that this was written late at night off the cuff and it was in response to a series of events that included then candidate trump insulting the immigrant family of a fallen war hero. and my presumption based on that horrible disgusting behavior that the american population would not elect somebody demonstrating that behavior to be president of the united states. it was in no way unequivocally any suggestion that me, the fbi, would take any action whatsoever to improperly impact the electoral process. >> what do you make of this

whole process of trying to essentially accuse peter strzok of personally trying to launch this investigation in order to bring down the candidacy of donald trump. i have never seen desperation so bad on the part of this party. they have so aligned themselves with trump and whatever he has done with russia that they are willing to go down with him. mark these words. this party, the republican party when the next stage of series of indictments come out against american citizens are going to have to make a choice as to whether they embrace activities and actions which could rhetorically be called treason or whether they're going to stand with the united states. everyone that went after him with this crazy conspiracy theory.

one fbi agent tried to bring down a president of the united states in a bureau that was almost completely in the tank for donald trump. is absolutely ludicrous. it is going to embarrass and burn a lot of careers. one of the things you saw was go after peter strzok with the affair that sparked the text messages back and forth. let's listen to that. >> and i can't help bullpen wonder how many times did you look so innocent into your wife's eyes and lie to her. >> that's outrageous. >> shame. >> always an issue. >> mr. chairman. please. >> have you no. >> this is harassment of the witness. >> what is wrong with that. you need your medication. >> somebody ended it by saying you need your medication. it really got ugly.

there was a lot of screaming. what do you make of this whole thing, sara? >> i mean, it's ridiculous. it's remp henceable. like malcolm said, it's despera desperate. in no way was the fbi trying to rig the election for hillary clinton. if anything they sank the election for hillary clinton. one thing everyone seems to forget is in the summer of 2016, harry reid released open letter to joems sames comey saying thec has the right to know. russia intended to falls fie election results. those are extremely serious claims. comey ignored it. then released the letter saying that hillary clinton was being investigated which prompted reed to send yet another follow-up letter in october. so i do think there are some questions we should be asking about the fbi, but one of the questions is not, you know, did peter strzok rig the election for hillary. that is so just ridiculous. absolutely obscene. >> quite a spectacle. thank you all very much. coming up in our next hour.

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wait a minute. you are being chosen to head up the criminal division of the department of justice and you have no experience, you have never prosecuted a case, never? never once been in a federal courtroom? not one time? that's a fact. >> on wednesday the senate confirmed white collar criminal to lead the department of justice criminal division. despite him having no. jeff sessions promised to recuse himself, he has made no such pledge. joining me is matthew miller. let me tell you one more think durbin said about benczkowski. i can't believe the republic party just rubber-stamped a

nominee to head the justice department's criminal division who has no prosecutal experience, who chose to represent a russian bank with deep ties to vladimir putin. do you agree with that statement? >> look, i had the chance to get to know brian a little bit when he ran the transition for the outgoing bush justice department. now he has no prosecutal experience. while it's true, as he said in his hearing, that's largely a management job, it does require judgment that only comes with experience when people present you difficult decisions. you have to know how to make those decisions. that's the biggest problem with him. when you look at his representation of alpha bank, he did it after working on the incoming sessions' department transition team. this team that set up during the transition between administrations. he was working on the transition

team. he then went and represented alpha bank while he knew he was likely to be confirmed -- or likely to be appointed a position at the justice department. nominees have these problems all the time. he could say he would recuse himself in the russia investigation and he's been unwilling and that's troubling. >> he's fourth in line to succession. we have a little chart here that shows who would inherit the oversight of the trump/russia probe in the event rod rosenstein were taken off the case. we know there are attempts to impeach him under way by house republicans. francisco is next, and then engel, and john demers and then brian benczkowski. dianne feinstein tweeted out,

confirming him puts it in jep. despite having worked for a russian bank. he pushed for comey's firing to ag sessions while serving on the trump transition team. those are clear conflicts of interest. can you explain, with all of that on the table, the alpha bank, the fact he pushed for comey's firing, why wouldn't he recu recuse? is there an innocent explanation for why he would not? >> what he would say, what trump officials would say, usually nominees won't say what they're going to recuse themselves before getting into the job, they want to get in the job, consult with ethics officials, maybe the argument is alpha bank isn't under investigation and then make the decision to recuse himself. here's the problem with that. the trump administration itself has set the precedent to do

things differently when jeff sessions went through his confirmation and he said he would recuse himself into any investigation into hillary clinton because it was such an obvious conflict of interest because of his role in the campaign. the lines of succession is one clear problem, but i have other problems that trump is looking to fire his way down the line to get rid of robert mueller. i don't think he would have to make his way to benczkowski to do it. but if mueller were to get any typical wiretaps approved, not the nsa wiretaps, those all have to go through the criminal division and be approved ultimately by the head of the criminal division. i don't have any reason to think he would act dishonorably but because of his representation of alpha bank, there's a real question of how he would act. the most obvious way out of this problem would be to recuse himself before confirmation.

now that he's in the job we have to look for him in the next few weeks to announce he's recusing himself. if he doesn't, i think there are very serious questions for the department. >> we know how donald trump reacted to the attorney general recusing himself. it would be interesting to see what the president's reaction would be if this gentlemen were to do it. >> probably a few tweets. >> probably. matt miller will be back. no. no, no, no, no, no. cancel. cancel. please. aaagh! being in the know is a good thing. that's why discover will alert you if your social security number is found on any one of thousands of risky sites.

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i didn't criticize the prime

minister. i have a lot of respect for the prime minister. we record when we deal with reporters. it's called fake news. we solve a lot of problems with the good old recording instrument. i called it the rigged witch hunt. i think that really hurts our country and really hurts our relationship with russia. we do have a political problem where, you know, in the united states we have this stupidity going on. pure stupidity. it makes it very hard to do something with russia. let me explain something. we have left nato with more money, with more unity, with more spirit than nato probably has ever had. >> welcome back to "am joy." the donald trump america has come to know was front and center on the world stage during his trip to europe. a trip that wouldn't be complete without trump further alienating our allies and cozying up to dictators, leading up to monday when putin is scheduled to meet with vladimir putin in finland. republicans are urging him to

cancel after 12 agents were indicted in mueller's probe friday. even though trump knew about those indictments before his trump, he still spoke in the familiar solicitor trumpian terms. >> we're not friends or enemy. he's want my enemy. and hopefully some kay maybe he'll be a friend. it could happen. >> joining me now is tara dell, president of the tara dell group, linda blair, trump biographer, and david kay johnston, author also. what's your thoughts of trump's trip so far? >> in trump fashion, it's embarrassing. we're heard a lot about the protests in london. there's a major protest going on all over scotland, which is where he is right now. he's alienated scotland actually prior to him becoming. the. this continues the first

minister there, he refuses to meet with her because she's been a vocal critic of him. her deputy minister is actually leading a protest against trump in scotland. a deputy minister is leading a protest against the american president in scotland. >> wow. >> and then on top of it, you know, trump is doubling down on the big lie. so, he's talking about -- and he's doing it with repetition, which is how i know it's strategy. he's tweeting it, saying it every event, talking about the fact that the u.s. is contributing 90% to nato. that number is actually 22%. he also made his other big lie, trying to take credit. if he's not undermining obama, he's taking credit for something obama has done. this time he's taking credit for the increases in the nato budget by the nato member nations that was negotiated by the obama administration in 2014. >> and these are just goals that were set that europeans reaffirmed this week. he didn't cause them to do it.

we have three trump experts on set to try to decode what's happening here. donald trump, because it's not clear sometimes, and i asked bobby off camera, whether what he does is some sort of strategy or just his id and it's not strategic. he's just doing what's in his mind to do. because donald trump gay an interview to "the sunday." he added, and he said this to "the sun," a poll just came out that i'm the most popular person in the history of the republican party, beating lincoln. i beat our honest abe. i mean, just the fact it was a completely different republican party and the number of people in the united states and was far different than there are now, and there were no polls at the time. it's a statement that makes no sense, but he seems -- do you think he believes that, that he's the most popular republican history in american history or just saying it for a fact?

>> heads, i win, tails, you lose. that is how he works. and you don't get as many headlines if you're a happily ever after guy. you get headlines if you kick them in the shins, contradict yourself, say one thing one day, say something the next. that's what matters. what he's been saying on this tour, it's really interesting to kind of parse it. partly it's to his base saying, you know, i'm punching out all these no good, dead beat people in nato. it's partly to members of nato saying, i'm looking for leverage. you better give me something. it's all about leverage. it's about where to find the leverage, who to push, how to extract the most. being allies, that's not in his lexicon. that's not in his muscle memory. his muscle memory is what's in it for me?

>> david kay, there's also the stuff he said that's bannonite. they obviously have a lot of agreement which it comes to things like immigration. here's what donald trump said about immigration to europe. >> i think the immigration -- allowing the immigration to take place in europe is a shame. i think it changed the fabric of europe. and unless you act very quickly, it's never going to be what it was. i don't mean that in a positive way. it's allowing millions and millions of people to come into europe is very, very sad. i think be you're losing your culture. >> if you needed a clear statement that donald's campaign is really make america white again, and if you're not white you better know your place, there it is. donald trump is a stone, flat out racist and always has been.

there have been judicial proceedings that established this, but those comments make it crystal clear the kind of view he has in the world. here he is in london where i in now behaving like a bull at a wedgewood shop and at the same time doing things exactly the way that the man he's about to meet with, vladimir putin, would love him to do, break up the nato alliance, cause these people to start fighting among themselves. i agree, it's very much the case of, to donald it's about heads, i win, tails, you lose. >> and i wonder, tara, as a black woman who was on "the apprentice," who knew donald trump at the time, i wonder if he struck you that way then? before i ask you that, let's play steve bannon. >> president trump is a -- look, you've known him for many decades. this guy is not a racist. he's one of the most loving guys

i've ever met. he's a tough guy but identify never seen him as a racist. one thing i would to say about populism, this movement you see throughout europe is not racist. >> who's right here? >> well, asking a racist if someone else is racist, i'm not sure how that's the -- there's any credence that should be given to steve bannon of all people. he developed -- helped to develop trump and execute trump's racist strategy. it's one thing to be racist. it's another to have a racist strategy. i've always said this. people think of racist as a zero sum game. they think they're only racist if they're outside your house burning a cross on it. so i think for donald trump, there's -- you know, while he has -- there are black people who are in his life. >> omarosa. >> crazy black people, but at the same time he thinks that

makes him not a racist. my treatment on "the apprentice ," i was always saying i came from government. he treated me well because i could do something for him. i could be helpful to him. i think he believes people like me and people like omarosa, we are exceptional. he does not believe all black people are gifted in the same way he makes these exceptions. i think that's an important distinction to note. that's actually very common amongst a lot of white americans. that is not -- his view is not a standalone view which is why he was able to tap into that with so many white americans and why his support overwhelmingly comes from white americans. >> you know, the other thing about his biography that seems to come up over and over, we talk to tim o'brien, you talk to tony schwartz, is this need for approval and need to be like. here is donald trump talking

about not feeling welcome in london. >> i used to love london as a city. i haven't been there for a long time. i think your mayor has done a terrible job. when they make you feel unwelcome, why would i stay there? and when i say that, i'm talking about government because the people of the uk agree with me. >> the protests were so huge, so overwhelming. it is hard for me to believe donald trump really thinks the people of london agree with him. do you think he really deep down thinks those protests -- did he think it was fake? it's extraordinary that he says, only the government made him feel unwelcome. >> well, i think he is unwelcome. >> but why does he think the people of great britain agree with him? >> because he can't accept the idea that he's anything except successful. that he's anything except the best. the best of the best.

he got that drilled into him early on. his family was very influenced by norman vincent peele and the power of positive thinking. he's the power of positive thinking square or even cubed. he can't take in the idea that he's anything but exceptable. he's the blame-shifter in chief. >> you know, david, there's this video of donald trump because he clearly decided that he was going to go after people like angela merkel and theresa may and say things about them or go after germany, et cetera. trump is otherwise own.

there was a piece in politico that says trump's wildly unpredictable performance in brussels left many convinced there is little left to the president's madness. i don't know if being predictable seems like a strategy to you or whether or not you think there's some method to it. well, donald can be strategic at times and occasions when he's flat out delusional about things. donald has spent his entire life with no controls on him. he's thumbed his nose at law enforcement. he's beaten four federal grand juries. he lost two income tax fraud trials and he's never had to comply with the law in any way. given his father his business partners, donald absolutely connects with these men who are not accountable to anyone. we've even seen him use, after talking about president xi in

china, about how it would be nice if he could be president for life. in his own mind, i'm sure donald believes he should be dictator for life because he knows more than you do, joy, he knows more than i do, he's donald trump. of course, we should all respect that and all show just as the people in north korea do to their leader, that he's the greatest of aus all. >> he wants the fear and the -- he wants people to adore him while he's doing the things he's doing. >> he absolutely wants to be liked. >> by the way, i've been -- joy, i've been trying to find people here in england who support trump. and the survey show it's about 10%. that's better than the numbers i'm finding. i've walked into shops and talked to people. >> it's hard to find. go ahead. >> i also want to make a point. i want to go back to the strategic thing. i 100% agree with david kay johnson, sometimes it's strategy and sometimes it's him going off

the rails. he's surrounding himself now, bill shine from fox news, he's surrounding himself with people who know how to take advantage of mistakes. they know how to change, they know how to spin that and leverage that into something they can respect or distract. i think that's an important point. when he goes off the rails, if you know this, it's an echo throughout conservative media and spun. that strategy. people should not underestimate -- democratic voters should not underestimate there's a strategy in place. the fact his lies about nature tow are being echoed throughout conservative media, that's a strategy. it's way too consistent. the use of the 90% number. if you say he's just using a hyperbole to make a point, 90% and 22% are way apart from each

other. it's important for people to understand that even which he's going off the rails, there are now people in place who can capitalize on that as well. >> and he does have a base that is absolutely 100,000% devoted to him. they'll just repeat. thank you all. up next, don't let trump's chaos abroad distract you. trump's supreme court pick could change this country for decades to come. (vo) we came here for the friends. and we got to know the friends of our friends. and we found others just like us. and just like that we felt a little less alone. but then something happened. we had to deal with spam, fake news, and data misuse. that's going to change. from now on, facebook will do more to keep you safe and protect your privacy. because when this place does what it was built for, then we all get a little closer.

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a supreme court nomination. mr. president, i am grateful to you and i'm humbled by your confidence in me. thank you. >> well, it may seem like weeks and weeks and weeks ago but it was only monday donald trump nominated brett kavanaugh to the supreme court. kavanaugh's likely confirmation would shift the supreme court even further to the right and could impact some of the biggest issues of our time, like abortion, affirmative action and even potentially mueller's ongoing russia probe. joining me is jenae nelson and matthew miller, justice and

security analyst at msnbc. what are your biggest concerns regarding kavanaugh? >> first, i'm so concerned that we're even thinking about moving forward with a nomination process and a confirmation process in the midst of what we know is one of the most if not the most embattled presidencies of our country. >> do you think because donald trump is under investigation he should not be able to nominate anyone? >> absolutely. it's not just that he's under investigation. this is an unprecedented investigation. and this -- the legitimacy of this presidency, which frankly has always been in question, is in question more than ever in light of the indictment that just came out yesterday, in light of the fact that we have almost 100 -- almost 200, in fact, indictments or plea agreements that have been entered into based on 35 people's actions, three companies. i mean, it is absolutely insane to think that he can make a lifetime appointment to one of the most significant and

important institutions in our democracy in this moment when his entire authority is really suspect. >> you know, matt, we talked to you in a previous block about brian benczkowski, who was confirmed by all the republicans, and joe manchin. kavanaugh helped draft the impeachment against former president bill clinton, a law clerk to kennedy in 1993. he has been previously voted to affirm by two members who would now be in a position to vote no, collins and murkowski. and more significantly, we'll put up this article, but kavanaugh wrote presidents should want be distracted by criminal investigations. here is what senator chuck schumer had to say on that point.

>>. >> why was kavanaugh chosen? because the president is most obsessed with the investigation and kavanaugh is the most against that investigation. the strongest in believing the president, even if he think's the law is unconstitutional, doesn't have to obey it is. that is so far out of the mainstream but it's just what president trump, who would roll over our democracy in ways we've never seen would want. >> and, matt, i feel like people kind of, i guess, understand that even if kavanaugh were not confirmed, the next justice president would come up would probably have the same views on roe v. wade, the same on affirmative action. the difference here is this is a person who is on the record on the idea of whether a president can be indicted. >> it's hard to see you would find someone else who has articulated such clear opinions and opinions out of the mainstream. it's one thing to believe a

president hasn't been indicted. that's a hotly debated position, and i'll say, i think it's probably an irrelevant position to think because i don't think mueller will bring up an indictment because of that existing justice department guideline. the position a president can't even be investigated, is completely out of the mainstream, is out -- is not in keeping with history. if there had been no criminal investigation of richard nixon, no information turned over to the house watergate committee that led to him resigning. so, i think what we need to see from justice kavanaugh -- oftentimes you'll see supreme court nominees go up and refuse to talk about prior supreme court cases. trump nominees have taken the extreme position where they won't even say if brown versus the board of education was a correctly decided decision. to get at what brett kavanaugh needs -- what brett kavanaugh needs to say for people to have confidence in him is to talk about two supreme court cases that clearly impact this area.

one, united states versus nixon where the supreme court ruled presidents were subject to criminal subpoenas. does he believe that case was correct? and, two, clinton versus jones, when the supreme court ruled that presidents could be subject to civil suits. does he believe that case was correctly decided? if he isn't willing to speak to those cases, i think it gives an indication it's not just his policy position about whether a president can be indicted or whether a president can be investigated but potentially his legal position and how he might hold on the court as well. >> i guess the thing is, you've had two buckets of objection that you're seeing from either -- the center majority community, particularly women, is the question of rights, the question of roe, of affirmative action rights, and i wonder if it would be any different if it was another person on the same list. whether donald trump would vote in favor of someone who believes

a woman's right to choose. kennedy allowing his seat to go through. he knows and likes kavanaugh. apparently him liking him helped sway donald trump to pick kavanaugh, that whole thing. the son working for deutsche bank. it's disappointing to a lot of people that kennedy stepping down is all there. then this question, is this the most important question, whether or not donald trump could be putting in place someone on the court who could indemnify him from the mueller probe? is that what people should be focusing on? >> there are many other issues, but to that point, this is tantamount to the president picking a member of his own jury potentially. it is really likely that one of these issues is going to make itself to the supreme court. and that he will likely have to decide this if he gets confirmed. before we even get to that point, the senate has an obligation to advise and consent

under the constitution, article 2, section 2, clause 2, and that means there needs to be a dissection of judge kavanaugh's record. he's been on the bench for two years. we should talk to him about his record on reproductive rights, voter rights, which is critical. when we think about the environment, there are so many areas that are cause of concern for civil rights groups and for anyone who has any interest in the social justice issues. >> are you concerned that roe versus wade will be overturned by kavanaugh, there will be a 5-4 vote to overturn roe? >> i'm very concerned the idea

of staredesisis. am i concerned, sflulgts. >> do you think the supreme court has now become so much a part of our politics it's not possible now to have confidence, it will just simply be on the basis of stare decisis and not on political justice? >> it's completely polarized. the legal defense fund for 80 years has put its faith in to preserve our democracy and our greatest ideals. we are hoping we won't lose the court. it's such an important institution for the integrity of our country but there are greater concerns. there is greater polar sdmrags on this court than we've seen on this court in a long time, ever. it's almost freezing in a political ideology with a 5-4 split, which will be likely with kavanaugh or potentially another justice. more importantly, we should wait until this country is stabilized before we move forward with any

nominee. >> it certainly didn't help president obama get his nominee on, the precedent of giving at least a hearing. >> that's right. >> to president obama's nominee. that didn't even happen. thank you very much. coming up, more than 2500 children are still separated from their children thanks to donald trump. baby boomers, here's something you should know. there's a serious virus out there that 1 in 30 boomers has, yet most don't even know it. a virus that's been almost forgotten. it's hepatitis c. hep c can hide in the body for years without symptoms. left untreated it can lead to liver damage, even liver cancer. the only way to know if you have hep c is to ask your healthcare provider for the simple blood test. if you have hep c, it can be cured. for us, it's time to get tested. it's the only way to know for sure.

weeks ago at the height of the crisis over trump's separation of children from their parents at the border, there was a turning point when publicly released audio of children crying for their parents. it included these pleas from a 6-year-old el salvador girl. >> that little girl has been reunited with her mom but thousands still remain without their parents. paying too much for insurance you don't even understand?

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it is girl is begging for a phone girl, 6-year-old allison from el salvador who was separated from her mother. they were reunited and spoke to

msnbc about the experience. >> reporter: when you heard that audio, how did you feel? [ speaking foreign language ] >> i felt so sad, so hurt, so disappointed to hear her voice. [ speaking foreign language ] >> i recognized her. a mother recognizes her daughter's voice. i couldn't help but cry and worry about her. >> with me now is maria, president and founder of the futero media group. president and ceo of border latino and mariana atencio. i want to play a little more from your interview. congratulations on getting that interview. you also got a chance to speak to allison after being reunited with her mom. i want to play a little piece of that interview. >> what's your message for all the kids that were in there with you that haven't seen their parents yet?

[ speaking foreign language ] >> her message is to keep fighting and have faith because they'll see their parents again. have faith in god. >> she's like a little grownup. it's very hard to get through that as a parent, but this is one of the lucky mom and child who are back together again. did the mom talk a little about really what allison went through? she seems okay, but has she started to process what it was like to be separated for a month and have they been able to process that? >> it's very hard to process what happened? that is what the mom told me, joy. when i spoke to that little girl, they had been reunited a few hours ago, at 3:00 in the

morning, in the middle of the houston international airport. if you look at that little girl, she's a 6-year-old child. in the middle of that press conference, other kids had some bags for her. it was toys they were giving this little girl. the mom tells me it's going to be a long time before she processes any of this. but to go back to what this little girl did, i mean, the fact she was able to memorize the aunt's phone number. we hear her voice in that audio recording, distraught but determined, get me back together with my aunt, it really made the suffering of so many of these children real to many millions of americans and people around the world. you remember that audio was leaked. it was mid-june and people were asking, where are the children? finally, we heard them. as you say, she's one of the lucky ones. because she was able to memorize that phone number, it led a lawyer to contact the aunt, therefore know where the child was and know where the mom was in a detention center.

but cindy told me, this is bitter sweet for her because she left hundreds of other mothers in the detention facility who don't know where their children are, who don't have a memorized phone number. >> this is with cindy madrid with you after -- this is before she was reunited with her daughter. >> how did you feel about the fact your daughter became the voice for so many children? >> i'm very grateful for the person who leaked the audio. [ speaking foreign language ] >> and proud of my daughter because she was able to say information. this information about herself. [ speaking foreign language ] >> i feel she has a responsibility now. to keep fighting. >> and very quickly, before i go to the rest of the panel, in the

case of cindy and allison, did they have corresponding alien numbers they could easily use to identify -- for the mom to identify where her daughter was? >> for the lawyer that took on this case, it was a logistical nightmare, joy, because she had to submit -- you know, they had to submit dna testing for both of them. it took them -- this was several weeks in the making, this reunification. again, that is knowing where the child was only because the child was able to say the aunt's phone number. so, really, i just left the border yesterday. i'm going back next week. there are hundreds of mothers inside centers like port isabel and lawyers telling me they have no idea how these reunifications are going to happen in less than two weeks' time. >> there are 103 children under the age of 5 that were in hhs, 57 have been reunified. there's excuses that have been given why they can't reunify the

others. hhs is claiming of the 46 that can't be reunited, 12 have already been deported. this is the statement, element 9 for my producers, the number is not the number of minors who will be reunified. it shouldn't be our objecttive to reunify all 2,551 minors with the adult they arrived here with because some are not their parents or pose a clear danger to the children. that's talking about the 2,551 minors age 15 to 17. >> we have a government that has actively participated in the ripping apart of families. and now they're saying, trust us because we know better for these kids. trust us. those who under their purview were literally ripping families apart, not separating, and now they're going to say, understand for these kids' own protection,

we're going to hold onto them. when i hear this, and this is what i have heard from my reporting, the line that they have been told is we are holding onto these children for their own protection. you know what they used to say to japanese-americans who were being imprisoned, being called inturned, in a nice way, we're doing this for your own good, we're doing this for your safety. we're being told this government is holding children -- what marianna was talking about confirms exactly the reporting i've been hearing and doing here in new york, which is they are -- i'm going to use this term. they are trafficking children in the middle of the night. the u.s. government is doing that. they're waking -- these children are already traumatized. joy, we had an interview with a neuroscientist to talk about, you know, what happens to the brain. there is permanent damage. she said it's like, for example, like somebody cuts off your arm. some of us will be really resilient and be able to get back, even if we're missing our arm, but some of these

children -- the physical damage on the brain because of this is permanent. so, now we're waking them up in the middle of the night, moving them around. it is unclear from the highest levels of people who are involved with these children exactly what -- where they're being given, who's being given the child, what is happening with the parents once they have the child, where are they going? are they getting ankle bracelets or shackles? are we going to see ankle shackles for toddlers? is that going to be the new money-making for the private prison companies? >> it's now a billion dollar business. health and human services grants for foster children for detained and unaccompanied children soared from $74 million in 2007 to $958 million in 2017. some of the children are not running to their parents. there's something going on there even with the reunions. >> a lot of these children don't

understand what happened. one day i'm traversing through countries with my family and promising a better life. that's why we're making this in the first place with the clothes on my back. i get to the border and i don't see my parents. i'm going to naturally blame them. let's be clear. there is now a case that surfaced in texas where it looks like a parent has been -- been separated from their parents after trump's executive order. the texas organizing project just announced it yesterday. they basically had to chase down a bus full of immigrant people and mothers and children they were trying to defend. when they appeared at the detention center, they said they did not need their legal center because it was empty when, in fact, they were awaiting to transport a bus load of people into another detention. these individuals are not even getting the legal cases and the legal counsel that they need.

and by law, they are privy to. the stories keep going on and on. when you talk about the detention centers making for profit, the only industry that literally rallied after trump's election was the private detention. the private for-profit prisons. i hate to say private because there's nothing private about it. it's not like you're going to private school. it's for-profit detentions where people are making money off the least vulnerable. in this case, children. we have to demand a congressional hearing because every single head of these agencies, whether we're talking about hhs, what we're talking about secretary nielsen, jeff sessions or scott lloyd, they each are speaking out of both sides of their mouth because they don't believe they need to be held accountable. if they're called to a congressional hearing in front of trey gowdy, elijah cummings, they have to answer what is the plan to reunify these children and who is responsible for it.

short of that, we're going to continue having different answers. >> and what the timeline? it's very slow. >> exactly. >> great work, all of you, on staying on top of this issue. thank you. coming up at the top of the hour, the latest on the protests greeting donald trump has he golfs at his resort in scotland. up next, the religious debate over the border crisis. what would jesus do? eathe. so to breathe better, i go with anoro. ♪ go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ go your own way once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. anoro is not for asthma. it contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. the risk is unknown in copd. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition,

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i think so many people have taken biblical scripture out of context like this saying, well, jesus is a refugee. yes, but it was not illegal. if he had broke the law, he would not have been their messiah. >> paul wright is a televangelist. and the leader of donald trump televangelist. and joining me now author of

reconstructing the gospel, thank you for being here. my friend, bishop barber. to answer the question whether or not paula white is correct when they were taking scripture out of context, and saying it wasn't illegal for him to sojourn. >> she's right about one thing, people are misinterpreting the scripture, and it's that crowd. jesus was arrested as a felon. jesus took the side of a soldier and was running because herod was kidnapping, killing children. and jesus said that offending any little one was sin. that's the sin. anytime you offend children and hurt children, particularly the poor, and jesus located the kingdom of god among the poor

and immigrant and stranger. that's why he was hated. both by certain religious folk and the state. and to listen to her further down, she said the facilities were nice. well that sounds just like the slave masters that said we could have nice huts or we can provide legal proshtection under the la. but that's sin. not only is it sin because of mistreatment of people it's a violation of the 14th amendment. equal protection of law. yes, they have some lying going on and it's time to challenge it defensively because it's being done heretically in the name of jesus. >> and jonathan, growing, you remember the sunday school lessons that seem to state that jesus was viewed as a criminal by the romans. but there's this other thing that's happening that people like paula white are saying, no, no, no, you can separate jesus from unlawful migration. what do you think is going on

there? and why do so many people believe it? >> well, let me say, amen, to what bishop barber said because he's absolutely right that this has deep roots in the slaveholder religion of our past. i mean, i don't want to be too much pointing the finger at sister paula white, because i know where she's coming from. i grew up in that context. i was once a young republican hopeful, a republican for jesus who was trying to put my faith into practice. and just to kind of model that she's into. and i don't think that she thinks she's racist at all. agency a matter of fact, i know she preaches to black folks all the time. but this pattern of using scripture to justify what the government says, even when what the government says is deeply unjust and unbiblical does go back to slave hoholder religion. and that slaveholder religion is with us still. we need to call her out.

and as jesus named it in his own day, jesus invented a word hypocrisy for those who wear the mask of religion and dot bidding of the corporate elites and those who are in power. >> and why do you call it slaveholder religion? can you explain that for those not familiar with that terminology? >> well, frederick douglass said between the christianity of the sla slaveholder and christ, of course, he wasn't christian. and his christianity connected him with others, black and white, saying no union for slaveholders it's an offense against god and what the bible says. and yet, there were plantation owners and easterly industrialists hoo were beginning to pay preachers to read the bible in the way that would justify what the government is doing.

paula white has taken a page from that book. i don't want to talk about slaveholder religion without point ogg out that there's always another way of scripture and that's the one that i'm proud to be part of that bishop barber and i preach. >> and bishop, i know you would love to debate the paula whites of the world. what is it that you would like to argue with them about? >> just the new testament scholar wants to joint, all of us, we have to push this issue. you cannot keep saying this is a conservative point of view when you are liberally dismissing the 22,000 scriptures in the bible that talk about the poor and how you treat the stranger. you can't keep saying this is god's position. it may be republic religion. it may be extremist religion. it may be your own religion, but you can't just can't lying.

particularly, when you take it to the highest level of the government and use it to justify policies. it's not that you're saying it, you're saying it in places that justify policies. and i quote it all the time, we're of the part where we justify evil and rights. there are also challenged issues in christianity. we have to have it now more than ever before. >> i will note that our producers did reach out to paula white to invite her to be on this morning. we did not get a favorable response. she's absolutely welcome to comes on. >> jeffers, graham, falwell, let's have them on. >> they're all welcome to come on. thank you bishop and jonathan. more "am joy." paired cheddar and swiss for eggs. beat that! kraft. family greatly.

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that is our show for today, "am joy" will be back tomorrow 10:00 a.m. eastern. alex witt with the latest. alex. >> thank you for the handoff. i will see you tomorrow. have a very good. i'm alex with the at msnbc headquarters. here's what's happening right now, 12 russians, 29 pages, one indictment. the special kouvns drawing a very clear line from the 2016 e-mail hacking directly to russia. >> russians came after us, they are coming after us. and they will come after us. the russians attacked us. it was