now. thank you at home for joining thus hour. happy to have you with us. last night at this time we were reporting on a new criminal complaint that had just been filed in federal court in washington, d.c. against a russian citizen who has now been arrested in this country. she was accused of acting secretly in this country as an agent of the russian government. so last night when we got on the air, we were able to tell that you it was a criminal complaint filed against this woman, maria butina. now it is not just a criminal complaint. now it is an indictment. a grand jury convened by the u.s. attorney, so not special counsel's office, the u.s. attorney handed down this indictment late today accusing maria butina. it was to act as an agent of a foreign government, specifyingly

the russian federation to exploit personal connections with u.s. persons having influence in american politics in an effort to advance the interests of the russian federation and to infiltrate organizations active in american politics in an effort to advance the interests of the russian federation. it then lays out the imaginer and means of the conspiracy. prosecutors say that she, quote, attempted on establish unofficial lines of communications with u.s. politicians and political organizations for the that you recall of advancing the interests of the russian federation. this is now an indictment. it is signed. the reason this is so important to the overall story arc about what has happened with the russia scandal and to us as a country, this butina indictment

is really a collusion indictment. it is about collusion between as yet unnamed americans, and agents of the russian government. at least one who was here personally on u.s. soil acting inside this country to influence u.s. politics. specifically around the 2016 election. there has been some reporting thus far, some strong reporting on who the unnamed u.s. prerns who are cited in this indictment in this case. i would caution you though that you don't need to go too far down the road in terms of speculating who might be involved in this case, which americans might be in trouble because of this case, which americans might be implicated in this collusion, conspiracy. i would just caution that you don't need to go too far down the road to speculating because unlike all the other russians who have been indicted thus far, who have been criminally charged

by the special counsel's office thus far, by the national security division of the justice department. unlike all the other russians who we have seen charged thus far in the scandal. this one marks rhea butina, she's in custody. she's in jail tonight. so there will be a trial in her case. what we know about the timing is interesting. apparently federal investigators have been looking into her for quite some time. we know that because federal agents searched search warrants. something happened within the last few days that led the fbi to suddenly become concerned that this woman might flee the country. you'll also 12 russian intelligence officers, we don't know if that was maybe what spooked her to make the fbi start worrying that she might leave the country. but that indictment was on friday. the arrest warrant for her was issued under seal on saturday.

that's when the criminal complaint and an fbi affidavit were sealed on saturday. then she was arrested on sunday. as president trump was heading to helsinki to go meet with russian president vladimir putin, she was arrested. and then hours after that summit is when this case against maria butina was first unsealed. that's the timing. the they went to court. filed under seal xlamt about why they wanted to arrest her. arrested her the next day. then the summit happens. then they unseal that she's been arrested. i should also tell you that we have just obtained tonight the transcript of the initial court hearing that maria aboutina had yesterday in washington before anyone knew she was arrested and would be charged. from the transcript, you can see

how the case gets unsealed. from the transcript. the judge says good afternoon. this is magistrate case year 2018-073 m. united states of america versus maria butina. the prosecutors. the deputy says this is an initial appearance and arrest warrant and this case is currently sealed. the judge says good afternoon. he says good afternoon, your honor. the judge says mr. kennerson, the court was informed before the case, before the court took the bench, that the united states intended to move to unseal this matter. i will hear from you now. and the prosecutor says yes, your honor, the government does move to unseal this case including the complaint and related documents. the judge says thank you very much. that motion will be granted.

so at that moment the case is unsealed. that's the first moment that we got any publicly facing information that this had happened. now, the courtroom deputy says please stand and raise your right hand. she does it. whereupon she was duly sworn. now, good afternoon. will you please state your full name for the record. she says, maria butina. the court says thank you. you may be seated. and he says, before we begin, may i address you to inquire whether or not she requires an interpreter? i would like for to you address that please. thank you. her defense lawyer says good afternoon, i think for this proceeding she will be fine without an interpreter. she's done other testimonial under oath events in english and successfully completed them so i think for this proceeding, that will be fine. the judge says very well. now, the other testimonial under

oath events that she has already done in english, we would soon learn included congressional testimony that happened behind closed doors that we didn't know about before all this was unsealed. so her lawyer then is saying here that that previous experience of giving testimony under oath proves she understands and speaks enough english to get by without an interpreter in court. the judge responds by going on at length, advising her of her rights, being assured she doesn't need a transhater. okay. we'll go ahead. a detention hearing happened in her case wednesday. then her defense hair complains to the judge at some length about the fact his client got arrested on sunday. that she is being held in jail in washington, d.c. and the lawyer clearly feels prosecutors moved so quick will you here that he and his client were really blind sided. back to the transcript.

do you wish to be heard with respect to the government's motion for a detention hearing? thank you. she is a 29-year-old russian national with no interaction with the criminal justice system at all. she just graduated from american nooufrs bha a 4.0 gpa. the government would contend she is a flight risk but she has been publicly eslengs you in the media been accused of being an agent for the government of russia for the last nine months and has not fled. she did not flee. she cooperated with that request. she had her house searched in april by the fbi with 15 fbi agents going through everything she had. she did not flee. and we have been offering to the government -- excuse me. we have been offering to cooperate with the government the entire time and have been met with silence. followed by an arrest on sunday. leaving her in central cell

block overnight last night. so i think she is not a flight risk. she is not a danger to the community and there has to be conditions of release. the government seems intent on pressing forward with incarceration, notwithstanding, you know, a pretty weak case. thank you, your honor. whereupon the judge calmly says in response, yeah, she will be held without bond. so she will fight this out. this matter of whether she has to be held in d.c. they will fight it out tomorrow in washington, d.c. at the very end there was private communication that was not transcribed. they were both allowed to approach the judge without a transcript of the remarks being made public so we don't know what it was. it will probably become unsealed

but as of yet, i think we're the only ones with the transcript. tomorrow should be very interesting. also today in the case of paul manafort,two big developments. we knew last night that uncharacteristically the judge in paul manafort's case had delayed a big hearing for manafort that was due to take place in court today. the judge delayed it until next week. and that was interesting. one is that it is uncharacteristic. he doesn't like delays of any kind so him delaying a case in manafort's hearing raised some eyebrows as to whether something was materially changing in manafort's case. we don't i don't know the judge issued that delay. it is totally plausible that he has a toothache or his dog needs to be shaved. i don't know. that delay is out of caring for that judge. that judge is considered to be a rocket docket judge. so a delay being granted by him was something that nobody was

expecting. we'll find out more presume bloi monday afternoon as to why it happened if we ever find out at all. now today, there have been two more big developments. the judge moved to it rural virginia to a venue. that issue of moving the trial is one of the matters we thought the judge was considering delaying until next being. the judge put out an order that said no, you're not having your trial moved. you'll be heard right here in my courtroom. that's over. that was a surprise. the other surprising development in the case today was when prosecutors filed a notification to the judge that they may call in the manafort case, as many as five witnesses who have not been

previously named. they are not people who have been publicly described as having anything to do with this case. prosecutors now say they may call any or all of those five witnesses and they have been granted immunity in exchange for their testimony. oh, really. we'll have some expert help figuring out what that means in a couple minutes. but no, we did not know that was coming today and yes, i am intrigued. unless there are more changes. we're going to see the substantial hearing in the maria butina collusion case including her in the courtroom tomorrow many federal court in d.c. a week from today. within the last few days, the special master overseeing

evidence seized by the attorney, that special master notified the court that several hundred thousand more documents have been reviewed to make sure they're not covered by attorney-client privilege. now that the wrangling appears to be done in the michael cohen case, we are watching this to bring criminal charges against michael cohen at which point we'll learn how michael cohen will respond. whether he will plead not guilty and fight charges or whether he might start working with prosecutors. all happening right now. dog days of summer, my butt. it is all happening right now. and it is in a new atmosphere of crisis in american politics that has been created by the president's behavior with the russian president yesterday.

i know that you observed some of the national freakout reaction yesterday in finland but check out the headlines today. the museum cold it is a pages from around the country. even if you've seen big headlines like the national times, trump with putin attacks 2016 intelligence. you might have sustain "boston globe." this is the star ledger. he stands by putin's side. the hartford current. trump hands him diplomatic win. trump supports russia on mueller investigation. here's the houston chronicle. here's the miami harold questions. here's the paper from idaho. the moscow pullman daily news from idaho.

trump embraces long time foe. putin doubts all intelligence. this is from iowa city, press citizen. praising putin. here's the canton repository. a one-word headline. treasonous. so we've got three branches of government and the fourth estate. the behavior by one of those, the executive, the behavior by the president, has shaken the nation. people are freaking out because of the president's behavior. that leaves the judiciary and the legislature. the judiciary, full steam ahead. hard core investigation of the russian attack. the question whether or not americans are complicit, that leaves one other branch of government. that leaves the much beleaguered, unloved legislature of the united states.

the u.s. congress which is trying to final its way forward in what is now widely acknowledged to be a national security crisis in this countr . surrounding the question of the president's loyalties. it is not necessarily going the way you might think. today judiciary committee in the house, led by republicans, they were holding a media on social media filtering. when the top democrat in that committee basically pulled the emergency break and tried to reroute the hearing. >> mr. cheryl, last friday, robert mueller indicted 12 russian nationals. this indictment is a remarkable piece of forensic work. this can be seen as the equivalent of the phoenix memorandumo about 9/11. it is a warning.

we must lead it. yesterday in helsinki, president trump said he does not believe itself sided with vladimir putin over his own intelligence community. this is a catastrophe in the making. if we do not take any action, the american people may not trust the outcome of the next election. this is unacceptable. our nation is under attack. accordingly under 3 b and, i move that the committee go into, now go, it speaks to the special counsel's indictment and the president's apparent submission to the russian government. >> the evidence in our possession. let's discuss the evidence. i don't know what it has in its possession that speaks directly to the special counsel's indictment about the russian government influencing the

presidential election. i don't know had a evidence they have in its possession that speaks directly to the president's submission to the russian government. but that is the top democrat on the judiciary committee trying to halt their existing session. to start dealing with the questions. naturally the republicans did not go for it. but for all the statements of concern is that sadness and worry and disagreement that we got from republican members of congress yesterday in response to the president's behavior, moves like this from congressman nadler, even from some republicans, are pointing a knew way forward. they're pointing congress to actually doing something if they

decide to. it is crazy but they could. we look to the president for leadership. when the national security cris crisis, what is starting to happen is that congress is starting to get an idea of some specific things it might be able to do. you saw that from congressman nadler there. today, jean shaheen said they should convene a hearing to receive testimony from the american interpreter who was present in the room when president trump met privately with president putin with no other u.s. officials present. technically, the translator works for the government. they should get '47 that translator because that's the only way that we as a nation

what may have been specifically discussed between trump and putin. what may have been agreed to on the united states' behalf in that meeting. that became particularly urge end concern this afternoon when the russian government put out a statement in their state media announcing the russian military was eager to start implementing the new plans for syria that were agreed to yesterday by president trump and president putin at their summit. what new plans for syria. there was no public announcement. no discussion with some them. now today according to the russian government, there was some new plan agreed to on syria and the russian military is ready to get to work on it. with our military. okay. how will we find out what that plan is? if not from i guess translator

who was the only other american sitting there while president trump and president putin had their little time together yesterday? in the wake of national security crisis caused by the president's performance yesterday, democrats suggested that one they know they could do was increase the funding in the states for the mid terms. the director of national intelligence on friday, dan coates, gave a speech in which he said the warning lights are blinking read the way they were on 9/11. it is literally under attack. they are consistent, meant to undermine america's democracy. the warning signs are there. in the face of those warnings, even from the president's own appointed national intelligence director, the trump white house two months ago did fire the top cyber security official at the

national security council. as "the new york times" reported, when the cyber security zar had his job eliminated, the cyber security experts and members of congress said they were mystified by the move. well, if mystified members of congress don't understand why that happen, congress could ask. if congress wants to do something in the face of documented russian attacks on our election, the intelligence community's hair on fire assertion that's those attacks are continuing, the president's public inexplicable denial is that the president publicly siding with russia against his own government and his own country on these issues specifically, congress could ask, right? congress has the option to hold hearings if they are also mystifi mystified, they could hold hearings on why the top security expert was fired months before

the elections. he was fired and there was no replacement. they have plenty of practical things they do do today to pick up the shack on this is a national security matter. to try to protect the country. to figure out the extent of what has been done while we are still in the midst of this attack. there is stuff to do. there's plenty of stuff to do. not even stuff that's hard to do. hold on. a quick very quick, practical to do list next my gums are irritated.

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. in march the department of homeland security and the fbi issued an alert announcing that russian government cyber actors were infrastructure in the u.s. this was not about russia attacking our elections and political parties. this alert from march was that the russian government was using attackers to target america's energy sector, our quote, commercial facilities, and our nuclear sector. how about congress hold hearings to investigate that? that seems like a serious thing and something congress could do

right now if they were so inclined. if they wanted to find a way out of the crisis we find ourselves in. there is a whole bunch of super practical, super specific done can know can do. here's another idea. last month in singapore, president trump surprised villone by announcing unilaterally that he had agreed to cancel joint military exercises between the u.s. military and our allies in south korea. this is just something he unilaterally offered. we learned that not only had the president not consulted north korea, he hadn't consult the u.s. military before he made the announcement. we know from wall street journal reporting that the canceling of u.s. military exercises with south korea was something president trump was asked to do by another world leader.

according to the "wall street journal," vladimir putin had asked president trump to stop. how about the national policy change? and how that policy change came about? who was consult on it? how was the president advised? where did that idea come from? several days before the announcement from president trump, the president again surprised everyone with his announcement that it is the new position of the u.s. government that the g-7 should become g-8 again. they should invite russia in again. russia should be back in that alliance now. that would suit russia very well but there is no indication that they were consulted about it or even had notice from the president that he was about to make that radical u-turn in u.s. policy and announce it publicly. that's a radical change if an important u.s. policy.

how about holding congressional hearings on where that policy change came from the how were national security officials in our government involved in that shock announcement? if they weren't, why not? if congress is feeling up to it, they might consider holding a hearing on why senior white house official jared kushner took a meeting with the head of a sanctioned russian bank who personally has a russian intelligence background. the white house and the bank gave could that afflicting answers why it happen so we don't know why. that was a meeting with a sanctioned russian entity and we don't know why. how about a hearing about that? and a conduit to influence leaders on behalf russia literally on that same zma the

treasury department is that the trump administration announced new rules that would allow the nra to stop disclosing its donors to the irs. right? these red hot concerns and what appears to be open conversations. potentially as a conduit for russian money into the presidential election. on that same day we learned that a russian spy was being criminally accused of pulling it off. no, no, we no locker need to know. if congress was looking for something constructive to do here, instead of sending sad tweets, they could stop the treasury from making that change. at least not until we're clear on what's going on here. right? if they're too scared to investigate anything directly related to the trump administration, maybe congress could just be persuaded to

investigate themselves a little bit. in the indictment from friday, all the russian military indicted, a candidate for u.s. congress solicited and received stolen hacked information from russian military intelligence. reasonably speaking, you might think that the house ethics committee could look into a charge like. that especially once it is included in an unsealed indictment. the justice department is saying that hacked information, presumably from the democratic campaign committee, was stolen by russia, and then used in a congressional campaign. reasonably speaking you might think that the ethics committee the congress could hold a hearing or two on whether any serving member of congress list is pitted stolen information from russian military intelligence and there by knowingly benefited from that

stolen information to secure their own election. that's a person in the jeopardy election who either won that seat or lost it. shouldn't the ethics committee look into it? whether or not that person knew it was russian military intelligence, he or she was soliciting the information from, to troy to win your election -- pick one. all of these specific, doable. any of these could be, we can feel helpless but you're in congress. boy there's a lot of stuff you can do. take your pick. one thing congress can do is levy against the russians. michael it is coach report that

in the first days of the trump administration, they tried on unilaterally get rid of rur sanctions. top russian officials, almost as soon as they took office, tasked state department staffers with developing proposals for the lifting of economic sanctions, the return of diplomatic come pounds. it was all donering in the trump administration without the knowledge of congress. how about a hearing on what happened there with the other echelons of the trump administration, and the first ordering of it? how about a hearing on that? congress cares about sanctions. do you care about trying to undermine sanctions? this is stuff to do. we are not beetles on our back

unable to flip over. if you want to help this country get out of the national security crisis, your hands are not tied. getting the truth, getting clarity, stopping more bad stuff from happening now and in the immediate future. that's at hand. it is not an impossible list. it is practical. the question is whether anyone will do it. theoretically there is no cass. and why don't we have a cyber security chief anymore? why did russians meet with americans? republicans and democrats you can imagine working together on stuff like that. in the real world though, in order for that stuff to actually happen, we're probably waiting

on democrats. and tonight you see the energy trying to fuel that across the street from the white house where there is a second diaw of spontaneous protests against the president and him siding with russia over the american government. you will see it a lot more tomorrow. we also saw it today in a rare sign of national cooperation by will he be ral ground troop. a big join effort called the last weekend to try to recruit every day americans other are freaked out about what's going on in the country. trying to make the largest grassroots effort, to get out the vote but also to volunteer for democratic candidates all over the country. it can be scary because hot water is hot but it can be useful if it means things are starting to get cooking. a lot more to get to tonight. stay with us. no, what?

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and we were able to purchase an mri machine. we've made it possible for the people who live here to lead healthier lives and that's invaluable. ♪ joining us live, chris murphy, member of the foreign relations committee. i really appreciate your time being here tonight. >> thanks a lot. >> a lot of people have described this moment we're in as a national security crisis or even a national emergency. and we're certainly seeing signs of the country being shaken. we're seeing a national freakout, for lack of a better term in response to the

president's behavior with the russian president yesterday. i think of you as the bright light of democrats, democratic foreign policy thinking in congress. certainly in the senate. and i think of you as a pretty sober observer of these things. are people being too alarmist? are people overstating the gravity of the situation that we're in right now? >> no. people aren't overstating the gravity of the situation. it is not a national emergency. it is a global emergency. the post world war ii world order is built upon the undergirding of the transatlantic alliance and that alliance is falling apart before our eyes. i would argue to you today that president trump has made nato the primary security apparatus by which we defend our allies in europe. he has told the world that he

does not believe his own intelligence services about a russia attack on the united states. if he were to receive evidence of a russian tike europe that russia denied, why would he believe his intelligence or security services then? why would he come to europe's defense? europe knows that. i think you have to wonder if they would come to our defense. so this is a moment where all the assumptions about how we would order the defense of the nation would come apart. and 24 hours later, i think we can safely say, we have to have this question of whether there is a national security check on the power and defense of the united states that the president is giving away to the electorate. >> in terms of what can be done here, i've been sort of saying for the last, well, i guess,

since the summit happened that it strikes me when we have a national security crisis as a country, and we've had lots of them. different magnitudes over the centuries. it tends to empower the president politically. the president is inclined to look at leadership at a time of a national security crisis. the president is what we to look when we feel we need to be kept safe. when the national security crisis is the president, at least with the president, i'm not sure where we look for security. where else we look for leadership, for a way out. it seems to me congress might rise to the occasion. i want to believe that's possible. i don't know where else americans can look besides to our other elected leaders. if we're going to be a democracy and we believe in saving democracy, we have to look to

democracy to save our problems i want to be as optimistic as that i can congress will rise. it sounds like you don't share that. >> i wake up every guy an aspiration to optimism. it is tough to get there these days. i think it is good news that we're only four months away from an election. i feel like the democrats charlie brown to republicans' lucy on the issue of russia. we've been soment on miss if i can at some point they will notice. as the president gets more reckless. they continue to refuse to is he the up to the plate. we can levy another round of sanctions. we can provide complete protection to mueller's investigation. we could tie the hands of the

president's ability to that you have out of nato. but i think republicans are not ready for that. we are four months from an election where congress can stand up and say this. >> senator chris murphy, democrat from connecticut. thank you for being here tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks. >> more to come. stay with us. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes.

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one thing happened today in the criminal case involving the president's campaign chair which is a thing you did not expect but i do understand. the judge in that case in virginia denied a request from paul manafort's lawyers to move the manafort case which is due to start next week. the judge daenld request by manafort to move the case to a different courtroom in a more republican leaning part of the state. that part i get. i didn't see it coming. i didn't know we would get that

ruling today but i get it. manafort cannot move his trial to a more conservative part of the state. this is what i don't get. it came on the part of prosecution. not the defense. the special counsel's office asked that same judge to grant amusement to five unnamed witnesses who they might call upon to testify at manafort's upcoming trial. we don't who know the five people are. they have requested that they be kept secret until they are called upon to testify, but the prosecutors say they want these witnesses to be granth immunity. they say without being granted immunity, they will refuse to testify and will instead plead the fifth. that i don't understand. joining us now, joyce vance who is kind enough to explain these things to me when they happen. thank you for being here tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> so first of all, should i see these two peas as being in the same pod?

the keeping the identity of these five possible witnesses secret and under seal? and them being granted immunity in exchange for their testimony? do they always go together oris? >> you know, they don't always go together. they're two separate but related issues in this case. >> on the matter of immunity, prosecutors are saying that they couldn't -- these people are not people who've been mentioned in previous indictments, they've not been publicly described as being associated with the case, but they wouldn't testify unless they're granted immunity and they want the judge to grant something called use immunity in order to compel their testimony. what does that mean? >> so you can't be forced to testify against yourself. we all have a fifth amendment privilege that keeps us from incriminating ourselves with testimony. this means that mueller's lawyers believe that these five witnesses, each of them if called would say i can't answer your questions because if i do i

might incriminate yourself. and mueller's lawyers have also decided that the testimony o'of these witnesses is so important that they're willing to give up their right to prosecute them even though they have some criminal exposure to get their testimony. so they'll ask the court to give use imsxhunt that means very simply that the prosecutors can't use the testimony that they give against them in a future prosecution. so i hope i haven't made it too complex. use immunity means these people who have a fifth amendment privilege will get immunity, they won't have to worry that they'll be prosecuted on the basis of their testimony, and mueller gets their testimony in exchange for use immunity. >> now, when i was reading up on this today like non-lawyers do and we always get these things wrong, when i was trying to figure out the importance of this development today one thing that stuck out to me is if a witness is given use immunity, as you're saying, that means anything they testify to can't be used against them to

prosecute them, even if they testify that they did something criminal. but there's one exception to that. if the witness lies, if the witness gives untrue testimony under this kind of provision, they can then have that testimony used against them or presumably be prosecuted for perjury, right? >> right. they don't get any immunity for a prosecution for perjury and the testimony can't be used and it's difficult to derivatively use any of their testimony. in other words, to derive adailgs evidence against them on the basis of their own testimony. >> would it have been a hard call today for the judge in terms of whether or not to grant this request from prosecutors? is this a sort of standard issue that comes up in a case and the judge usually does what the prosecutors want? >> you know, it does. and prosecutors can't just make this decision that they want to give someone use immunity. there are standards that doj uses internally for evaluating these decisions. so for instance, you've got to

do an assessment of how culpable the witness that you seek to get immunity for is. you don't want to give immunity to someone who's extremely culpable against someone who's a minor player. so presumably each of these five individuals is less culpable than manafort is. >> joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for alabama, person who keeps me sane on a regular basis. thank you very much, joyce. i appreciate it. >> thanks. >> now it makes sense. we'll be right back. this is not a screensaver. this is the destruction of a cancer cell by the body's own immune system, thanks to medicine that didn't exist until now. and today can save your life. ♪ ♪ you might or joints.hing for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish,

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know about. last night and tonight we have seen these basically spontaneous protests breaking out across the street from the white house in washington in protest of the president's behavior with the russian president yesterday. tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. eastern that is apparently going to spread. we are told that more than 60 cities and towns across the u.s. are going to be holding candlelight vigils tomorrow under the headline of "confronting corruption and demanding democracy" in the wake of special counsel robert mueller's indictment charging 12 russian military intelligence officials with interfering in our election. we expect that the largest city in the country will be the largest event maybe. new york's times square will be holding one of those events. but there's also again, as i said, more than 60 events planned nationwide everywhere from atlanta to muncie, indiana to brownsville, texas 8:00 p.m. tomorrow night. we've been watching a sort of national freakout over the last couple of days. tomorrow we will see some of that made manifest with these vigils. stay with us.

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tomorrow night i want to let you know right here on this bat channel at this bat time we're going to have on this show a former very senior federal cyber security official. it seems like the right time. this is not a person who does a lot of tv. we are bringing him to new york tomorrow for the interview on this show. i think you will definitely want to see it. there. i said it. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening. >> good evening, rachel. now i'm busy trying to calculate the age of people who get the bat channel reference. >> oh, good point. >> but of course with tv land i think the batman series reran a lot. >> you know, also when you get old you stopped being able to make fine distinguishing differences between different eras when everybody else is just like mostly younger. you look out at the population, you're like yep, i'm at the top. then you stop realizing like what's gener