flip and michael avenatti telling me he would not rule out representing michael cohen. if he were to get a full written presentation, he might be able to do that without a full legal conflict. that todoes it for us, "hardbal is next. >> another day, another bombshell, let's play "hardball." good evening, i am steve kornacki in for chris mat matthews. we have a new bombshell tonight. michael cohen secretly recorded

a conversation during the presidential campaign with then candidate trump in which they discussed a potential payment to karen mcdougle. you can hear cohen and trump discussing a plan to cohen to attempt to purchase the rights to mcdougal. mcdougal alleges she had a roughly ten-month affair with trump. this is what she said earlier this year. >> well i was a different girl. i had fun. i was in the playboy scene. and enjoying life as much as i could. and you know, when i got with him, actually, you know, there was a real relationship there. there were real feelings between

the two of us. there was a real relationship there. and out of sight, out of mind with everything else. and i did have a lot of guilt, but i still continued. >> the white house has denied the affair. four days before the election, the "wall street journal" revealed the "national enquirer." hope hicks who was the trump campaign spokeswoman at the time told the "wall street journal," they have no knowledge of this. legal strategy telling nbc news he was unaware that he was being recorded. lanny davis issues the following statement. obviously there is an ongoing

investigation and we are sensitive to that. but suf fis it to say, that the recording will not hurt mr. cohen. >> joining us. thanks to all of you for being with us. michael, who reported this to start with, let me begin with you and begin to take us through the basics here. this is about a conversation that took place in the fall of 2016 during the campaign at that point, the "national enquirer r had the rights to this story and the conversation was about paying the "national enquirer" for that? >> this was going to be the payment to buy the rights to the story to essentially ensure that it continued remain silent. this was in september just two

months before the election. as you pointed out in november, the campaign is denying any type of deal or knowledge of anything. this conversation is brought up in the context of the enquirer payment that was made to the model. cohen secretly recorded the president. it is only two minutes long. and michael cohen reported a lot of different things. this one, regards to the president is the most salacious. >> there is a discussion here, but do we know there was actually a payment? >> there is ultimately never a second payment that is made. that is what the president's lawyer is saying today. this payment was not made. and they are saying the tape indicates that the president did not know. no evidence that the president knew that months earlier the

"national enquirer" had paid to buy the model's story. >> let me bring in katie, our attorney legal expert here. from a legal standpoint when you look at what is reported today, all of the other questions that have been swirling about michael cohen and with trump and these alleged payments, do you see any type of a crime? >> the crime we need to be focusing on is whether or not there has been a violation of campaign laws. was there a violation of in terms of a failure to disclose that the contribution was made. giuliani is running around saying this is exculpatory and benefits donald trump. what we have heard thus far, a denial by the trump administration that they even knew about this but clearly that

is a lie. because in september of 2016, on a tape you have trump and cohen talking about it. what do we have in terms of legal take-away from this? now we have an answer to this question. why was michael cohen making these tapes? it wasn't just to memorialize conversation with a client. these tapes are to ensure that if he needed them later, he would have an opportunity to do so. >> what you are saying there essentially is this is potentially damaging information about donald trump during a presidential campaign and so the campaign finance aspect would be that a payment design to keep it quiet would amount to campaign spending? >> it is the idea that you are making a campaign contribution for the purpose of influencing an election. and you need to follow the money and look at the timing of the payment. this payment was done in terms

of the ami payment in august, two months prior to the election. and we are hearing maybe we should buy these rights from ami because trump wanted to be the gate keeper of the secrets. he didn't want anybody to know about this before the election occurred. >> rudy giuliani, the president's lawyer confirmed the recordings saying the conversation was less than two mon mn minutes long. giuliani confirmed that trump had directed cohen to make the payment, but quote the payment was never made. adding that mr. trump had told mr. cohen that if we were to make a payment related to ms. mcdougal. the idea that there is somebody this close to donald trump, the idea that he recorded this conversation and now potentially more conversations, is that something that was ever you think was ever on donald trump's

radar? >> hes is quoted in saying he s very surprised. trump spent most of his career threatening business acquaintances. and a lot of times that was bravado. trump had people in his orbits who are fixers. i don't know legally how much this issue with the payments are going to come home to roost for the president in the way that is actually threatening to him. i don't think campaign law violations. what does he know about russia. trying to get a new hotel built in moscow. there are all these odd little moments which michael cohen is

intercepting around the russian issue. that is what mueller is looking at. trump's inner circle intersecting with russians or russian cutouts to influence the outcome of the 2016 campaign. >> that is the bigger picture. michael cohen giving this interview. he hired lanny davis. and one of the guessing games i have been watching is who is trying to send the message to who? is this an example of cohen trying to send the message to cohen? >> it is a debate over who the source was. i am sure we could ask mike schmidt about it. but if it is trump and his lawyers t says one thing. and if it is michael cohen leaking it, then you can see it as a warning shot or a cry for

help or a signal that he is intending to cooperate. and some people suggests that if it is the president's attorney or rudy giuliani, then they see it as potentially good news for the or they are trying get out of a bad news story. there is a lot of potential sources. >> well, you know, michael, look, i know, futile, i was going to ask you to reveal a source or anything. but is your sense, do you have any sense of the motive of who is leaking this? >> no. and i think sometimes is looked at too black and white in the media that things are dolled out and handed out. this is an important part of the current trump story. in new york, there is an investigation that is focused on

cohen. but trump's lawyers don't know what the authorities are looking at. still fighting over what the u.s. attorney's office can have and can look at and whether anything is protected. michael cohen has not formally agreed to cooperate with the government and the lawyers don't know the full extent of whether it. they have an important decision to make that they have continued to pull off. one of the issues that they do not want to be questioned about in that interview is michael cohen. >> that issue of the "national enquirer." the chairman of ami which owns the "national enquirer" has been friends with donald trump for

decades. mr. trunk, his lawyer michael cohen and mr. pecker have strategized protecting him. and in june, it was reported that ami had been subpoenaed by federal prosecutors related to the mcdougal payment. there is a closeness here that extends back to well before donald trump was a political character. >> and speaks to trump's history of coddling or cozying up to gossip writers. he maintained close relationships with the people who wrote those columns and he would doll oe out pieces of

information. in exchange for favorable coverage. he connected pecker to things that pecker was interested in. and in turn pecker gave him fawning coverage. >> i have the question, if the "national enquirer" had this story and there was a discussion potentially about paying, and then there was no payment, why wouldn't there be? if you are running for president and you are worried about it. and this is what it is going to take to get if buried, why wouldn't the payment happen? >> i can't speak to why the president didn't pay, or no agreement reached for a payment. but one of the most interesting aspects of what happened today, is the fact that michael cohen taping his client which is totally unethical and completely unheard of. undermines this narrative that we have been talking about for

months about cohen's loyalty to his client. somebody who tapes his client and exposes them to this. is he really upholding his responsibility to his client, maybe he was not the kind of ride or die side kick that we thought he was. >> have you heard about that before? a lawyer taping your client? >> you can do it. you can do it in new york. but that is the reason why, why are you doing it? it is true, you want to make sure that you have this information if it has a value for you later on and to answer that question why that payment was never made, why do you have to make the payment if you are made president. >> if they felt their lawyer was recording them, probably wouldn't have him as a lawyer much longer. thank you for being with us.

the white house in an uproar over comments of trump's top spy. dan coats gone rogue. and with trump digging in and inviting vladimir putin to the white house, other republicans are speaking out like never before. plus, meeting with putin received wide spread condemnation and others calling it treasonous. the question of what really happened in that one-on-one with trump and putin. the "hardball" roundtable going to tackle that. the payments related to karen mcdougal. the roundtable is going to tell us three things we may not know. this is "hardball" where the action is.

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>> today, this is the league and the player's association head back to the drawing board. back in may, the nfl said players could not sit or kneel during the anthem. and the player's association said not good enough. of course president trump felt compelled to weigh in on this in a tweet. urging the nfl to impose a stiff penalty on players who kneel. be right back. ean up a retriever that rolled in foxtails, but she's not much on "articles of organization." articles of what? so, she turned to legalzoom. they helped me out. she means we helped with her llc, trademark, and a lot of other legal stuff that's a part of running a business. so laura can get back to the dogs. would you sit still? this is laura's mobile dog grooming palace and this is where life meets legal.

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>> okay. >> yeah. >> that's going to be special. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was director of national intelligence dan coats learning that president trump invited vladimir putin to washington for a second meeting. it comes a mid a week of dizzying answers. putting him squarely at odds with his own intelligence agency. they said the optics were especially damaging noting that at moments coats appeared to be laughing at the president. coats has gone rogue said one senior white house official in an official with cnbc trump defended his relationship with putin. >> getting along with russia is

a positive, not a negative. and if that doesn't work out, i will be the worst enemy he ever had. >> will hurd of texas offered a dire warning. hurd writing over the course of my career as an undercover officer in the cia, i saw russian intelligence manipulating many people. i never thought i would say the day where the american president would be one of them. trump responded to his critics writing i got severely criticized by the fake news media for being too nice to president putin. in the old days they would call it diplomacy. it was loud and vicious. >> i am joined by michelle goldberg. it is interesting to watch

coats. there was the statement that he put out without white house clearance this week. somebody in coat's position, right now, if trump is watching him, and as infuriating as this suggests, do you think there is any protection for him. or do you think somebody like coats would be in danger of going. >> joi don't know if danger is e right word. it seems to me that he has decided that he is perfectly willing to step aside. the honorable thing for coats would be to forthrightly denounce him and resign in protest. when you have an administration that is this corrupt and this much of a threat to the stability of the world and the national security of the united states that you want patriots who are in a position to influence things to stay in place. although i think that one thing

that we are learning for example that he didn't know putin was coming. we can ask how much of an influence is he able to have. >> i was watching this week, i was curious what the reaction would be in conservative media. and sean hannity has been the loudest and he is squarely by trump's side. i feel like i have seen more dissent than usual. >> if it is his base, they are 100% whatever he does he is right. and whatever the excuse put out on his behalf they are behind. other people in the gop they are outspoken and disagreed with him. similar situations with coats. we were talking a minute ago with coats and his future. nobody knows. look what happened to rex

tillerson. another scenario today as well with federal chairman jerome powell. he doesn't think they need to be raising rates when the market is already positioned for, you know, for rate hikes and we are going to get another one. so another chance for another appointee, somebody else, powell interesti being in the position. you have coats, and now you may have another person. >> and coats said he felt duty bound to correct the record. top justice and intelligence officials have all been crystal clear about their conclusion. >> undeniable that the russians are taking the lead on this. i think anybody who thinks that putin doesn't have his stamp on

everything that happens in russia is misinformed. it is clear that nothing happens there of any type of consequence that vladimir putin doesn't know about or hasn't ordered. i think we are sure about that. >> my view has not changed which is that russia attempted to interfere with the last election. >> the russian effort to influence the 2016 presidential campaign is just one tree in a growing forest. >> and in his "new york times" op-ed writing by playing into vladimir putin's hands, the leader of the free world actively participated in a russian disininformation campaign that legitimized the denial. you were talking about the idea of maybe out of principle, somebody like dan coats

resigning. the case that you hear for him staying is that if he goes, if somebody comparable goes, maybe he gets replaced by somebody who doesn't put out that statement this week who says the president may have said this, but here is what we are seeing. >> and that is a debate you are seeing regarding everyone who has seen to have at one time a shred of honor who works in the administration. should they go? because they are working with something that is disgraceful or should they stay and mitigate the damage. i am sympathetic to that argument when it comes to national security people. should say trump tried to recognize the russian annexation of crimea. but i also think that at a certain point, you know, again, given coat's, i think it is clear about what coats thinks.

you would have a real galvanizing impact i think if a few highly placed and highly respected people stepped aside and then spoke out against the situation that is that people will say quietly is so outrageous it seems to have come out of some sort of over the top hollywood movie. people are coming to terms that is this is reality. and this is as bad as it looks. >> and on twitter, that there would be a visit from putin to the white house this fall. on top of everything else that has been expressed, i think they are looking at that and saying, this fall, on the eve of the election, you want to go through this again on american soil? >> that is right, and that is why everybody is caught off gou guard because the midterms are

important. and trump should know that the midterms are important to him. if something happens to trump, it is going to be up to the house and the senate. the trump administration they approved the cell of legal aids and response russian occupation to crimea. >> you are making the case, look, as close as he is rhetorically and in terms of spe seemingly to personally like putin -- >> he is agreeing that trump, i feel like is hard on russia, but the problem of it is he likes putin personally. there has been some sort of bromance with putin. george w. bush said he liked putin. >> but putin wasn't responsible for bush's election. >> nor had putin funded --

>> can you not be hard on russia. >> what you see again and again in this administration is this bifurcation. so regarding sanctions we know they did institute these sanctions and then trump blew up and was furious and felt manipulated into doing this. so you see his administration trying to carry on a hawkish. >> you get that reporting and then he says no one has been tougher on russia and points to that. and it becomes dizzyingy. what do americans think about it. i am heading over to the big board. and they might surprise you a little bit. and this is "hardball" where the action is. little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla.

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all right, we have been talking about the trump/putin summit in helsinki. the question what do the voters, what do americans, what do folks watching this make of it. we have polls. the first polls that have come in after that summit, after that press conference w e can give yu the readout.

this is axios. nearly 60% disprove. and the second big poll to couple out, cbs news, similar finding 55%. clear majority disapproval for the president, for his behavior and for his actions over there in helsinki. when you look at the party divide, not a big surprise. overwhelmingly democrats not happy with what happened. republicans 62% approve. and 79% in the other support. 2-1 disproving of what they saw there. that looks like the headline, but is it more complicated than that. a third poll that came out. warned to see how deeply held these views. approve, disprove, or i'm not sure. i'm not sure i have an opinion.

and it is interesting when they added that option. here is what the result looked like. suddenly you have plurality approving. if you look at the democrats and the republicans among independence, look at. that a third of them chose the not sure option and approve gets a plurality of 330%. when you start accounting for how deeply held that view is, it gets a little bit more muddled. this is my tease ahead on sunday. on sunday, a release of a brand new call street -- "wall street

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>> welcome back to "hardball." more on our top story. according to the "new york times," michael cohen secretly sta taped a conversation with president trump. the question is no matter how damaging the cohen story, will it actually provide a much needed distraction for the president from the fallout over helsinki. let's bring in the panel. beth, never before in american

history would you suggest that a story like today is about donald trump and his lawyer and the phone call and payment was anything but terrible politically for the administration. and yet, this is a president, john brennan saying this president is guilty. something happens that gets the world crazy. and something happens. >> he is tweeting about the nfl and he is creating another distraction on his own. we don't know why this came out now. it also could point to something else that is going on. which is that michael cohen is deciding that he is going to cooperate with the prosecution. we don't know how this material was obtained or whether it came

out of that raid in his apartment. or whether he is finally saying, the writing is on the wall. the president doesn't stand by me. it behooves me to get involved and provide what i know. if he is decided to cooperate with the prosecutors, trump is in a lot of trouble. >> the longer termi questions, but it does strike me that we had a major event with almost no parallel, no precedent in modern american political history. leaders of nations that we had tense relationships with, but never went like this one went. and yet we end the week talking about this. >> right. but we are still talking about putin and russia. he has not knocked this out of the headlines specifically the russia scandal. so i don't think it is having

the intended affect. everyone knows if you are in trump's orbit, the way to make contact with trump, the way to communicate with trump is through the media. and everyone knows that leaking information to the media helps to get a message across to trump whether that message is to try to chide him. as a way to change trump's behavior. i don't think that will be lost on michael cohen because he was in the trump orbit and he knows how to push the button. and if you look at the twitter feed, he is clearly sending smoke signals to donald trump. how he values freedom of the press. all of those things are clearly targeted at none other than donald trump. >> yes, there are clearly provocations here from donald trump's former personal lawyer,

his fixer, we use that word. and if that theory is correct, the president doesn't seem to be responding to them the way cohen hopes. >> that is because the relationship is dead. i think michael cohen has made up his mind. he is facing immense legal bills. we are talking high six figures. he is running out of money. he is not making that much anymore. and the amount of time he is going to be spending on the mueller probe and the amount of money, it is going it cost a lot. i think that michael cohen when he has been attacking the president on twitter, indirectly, mind you is really ready to flip and make a deal. and with the tapes, he is saying, hey, i have something attractive. please help me and let's strike a deal. it is like him believing he is the next ray donovan.

no, he is not blowing the whistle and saying there is a cancer on the presidency, he is just trying to save his own skin. >> in terms of cohen, cooperating, flipping, whatever term, is that he has been sending all of these signals and keeps sending the signals. does that mean prosecutor is looking at him and saying there isn't as much here as you might think. >> there is a lot more there. so much material has been taken out of his office. and the vast majority seems like it is going to be available to prosecutor to sift through. it is more to the point that both of you guys made, he is signaling to president trump, and signaling to all of us. i am done. i am not the guy taking the bullet for the president as he

at one point claimed he would. there is not a significant chance that he already flipped and this is, this surfacing of the tape is not something done by trump's team, not something done by rudy giuliani, but done by michael cohen to say it is time. >> it is fascinating, you mentioned taking the bullet. apparently he was taping him when he said that too, or before he said that. interesting juxtaposition. up next, top level officials still in the dark of what was discussed at the two-hour meeting. is it a good idea for donald trump to have a second meeting in washington this fall? you are watching "hardball." across the country, we walk. carrying flowers that signify why we want to end alzheimer's disease. but what if, one day, there was a white flower for alzheimer's first survivor? what if there were millions of them?

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump began the week by spending two hours in a one-on-one meeting with russian president vladimir putin despite u.s. officials are still in the dark about what went on. dan coats, when asked about a second meeting, he had this to say. >> oh goodness. first of all, they are not going to ask me what the agenda is. we will be looking at what the potential intelligence risk could possibly be and we will make that information known to the president. >> what would you recommend that there not be a one-on-one without note takers. >> if i were asked that question, i would look for a different way of doing it. >> we are back with our roundtable, evan, tara, and

beth. evan, the idea of having a second meeting this time in washington, does trump have to have something to show for the first one before the second one? >> yeah, the president has nothing to show for it. he claims he has these achievements, but unwilling to list what they are. great achievement in nuclear, and not saying what it is. where vladimir putin is setting the tone and saying what happened and what he got from trump. the bloomberg report saying putin wanted a referendum in crimea. he is now trying to change the topic and talk about what the nfl players should be getting in penalties for kneeling. i think the president should not kneel before vladimir putin. i would love to know the penalties for that. >> something like this happening in washington, something like we saw this week happening middle of october, couple of weeks

before people head to the folks, the politics of this should be looking at it and saying are you kidding me? >> i think we are excited. democrats are excited. polling to suggest that that messaging is working. running on local districts, they are running on this. and the polling supports its effectiveness and another actual indication of this effectiveness, in the state of alabama, you had republicans in the republican primary running on corruption. so it is an effective strategy. russia speaks to trump's corruption. another indication that he is corrupt. just like the salacious sex scandals, and just like etpa. and i think it is having an

impact. >> he clearly, something resonated with him where he felt like he had to try to make some kind of a statement walking back some of his comments there, and he came back with the idea meant to say wouldn't, and would. and he seemed conflicted about going that far. but something got to him a little. do you think any of the criticisms he got, from within his administration, from his own party, even fox news. do you think that registered with him at all. >> that extraordinary moment saying i looked back. the term hostage video is cliche at this point. he was reading from notes. he looked rather glum. it didn't look like he was excited to talk about. the very next day we learned he would like president putin to come back here. this is typical by the president. he might be shamed in making a

grudging statement, but then he likes to lean in and go for it on the very thing he is being most criticized for. he likes to double down. if he is inviting putin back, putin hasn't said yes to this yet. there is no agenda. even in a normal presidency, with an american president and russian president, there would be an agenda. before it got up to the upper level. he is throwing out the rule book. and his supporters love that. why not. >> the moment we are living in. these three will tell me something i don't know. you are watching "hardball." (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything

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while elevating your advertising effectiveness. sounds like an advertising opportunity knocking. visit comcastspotlight.com today. evan, tell me something i don't know. >> a lot of talk about the ocasio-cortez victory. new polling is showing that cynthia nixon is on life support. cuomo is dominating her. i think nixon, publicity stunt engineered by bill de blasio. >> caro, illinois, a place

considered getway to the south. has had public housing segregation. ben carson hud has made it worse. he is giving people vouchers trying to find housing. the white public housing in that area has been maintained for decades. there was a point where they stopped mowing the lawn. and cleaning out old apartments and fixing apartments and really nothing was done to these people and the people have fought for decades. the first hope they got was under obama administration and ben carson has taken it away. >> beth? >> speaking of ocasio-cortez, she and bernie sanders, the

numbero uno candidate, got together. bringing the message that what could work in the bronx or vermont can work in the heartland. >> thanks for joining us. all in with chris hayes starts right now. good evening, i am ali velshi in for chris hayes. the recordings were seized during the fbi raid on the offices of donald trump's fixer michael cohen.