probe, his money man. that is where all eyes are as federal prosecutors bear down on a new angle. that does it for us. i will be back tomorrow. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. >> obstruction in plain sight. let's play "hardball." >> could donald trump's tweeting cost him his presidency. could mueller find bullying obstruction of justice. broad daylight constitute any defense. is this all trump's lawyer has to defend him that he obstructs in plain sight? good evening, i am chris matthews in washington.

there are also actions that the president has taken in plain sight that could bolster a potential obstruction case. "the new york times" quote mueller is skricrutinizing twee and negative statements from the president about attorney general -- by both intimidating witnesses and pressuring senior law enforcement officials to tamp down the inquiry. reacting to the development. run rudy giuliani was dismissive. if you're going to obstruct justice, do you do it quietly and secretly. mr. mueller will stitch together several episodes encounters and pieces of evidence like the tweets to build a case. specifically quote the fact that

they are scrutinizing his actions under a section of the united states code titled tampering with a witness, victim or informant raised concerns for his lawyers about mr. trump's exposure in the investigation. the special counsel still wants to question the president. trump is demanding that he isn't asked questions about obstruction of justice under a proposal of the president's legal team submitted to mueller. democratic congressman eric swalwell of california. and joyce vance. let's start with peter. the report is fascinating. just because you do something in public doesn't make it legal or innocent. you can kill people in public and it is still murder. your thoughts >> it is striking that the

things that he has said in public and said out loud, had they been in secret memos, people would say aha. a conduct or pattern of conduct that might be questionable or criminal. the fact that he says it out loud has gotten people desensitized. up front about what he thinks about sessions and about comey. trying to weave it together to see how it fits into a pattern. no single tweet or statement. whether you add it up, does it add up to witness tampering or impeding the investigation. >> demanding the loyalty of comey before firing. or let michael flynn off the

hook or he said tell the public i'm not being targeted here. all of those demands we have learned he is doing. they could be potentially be, i'm asking you, obstruction of justice. >> peter is right. trump doing it in broad daylight has desensitized the public. but that won't carry over to bob mueller. he will look at trump's conduct and state of mind. within this statutory framework that exists under law, he will decide whether there is enough evidence to prove some sort of obstruction and that is why all of this conduct matters. tweets that can be attributed to him personally, they run through this course of conduct from the firing of comey torq, to the ef of humiliating jeff sessions. so yes, mueller will definitely

try to stitch all of this together and see if obstruction emerges at the end. >> does the fact that he tweets at dawn, apparently he reads the paper and then starts tweeting. it is done impulsively and out of passion. does that add to the question of motive? >> i think it does. i think what happens here, is you get a sense of his true state of mind and that's the most difficult part of an obstruction case. the government has to prove that you acted with an intent to keep a witness from showing up to testify or intent to destroy evidence. to the extent, it is usually the eyes that are the windows of the soul, with the president, it is his tweets. >> we have all been watching this in plain sight and these tweets which goad everybody. pounding the attorney general.

take charge the case and get me out of it. it seems like he is constantly pounding jeff sessions. to interview on his behalf and yank mueller out of his tweet. >> there is no twitter/client privilege in the law. so that is not going to save him. who would be so stupid to say something everybody could see. >> that is what rudy is saying. he is saying he must be innocent because he is doing them openly. >> right now, he feels -- >> i know road scholars. >> he feels embolden to move forward. this goes to the judiciary committee and you look at that land of misfit toys. he thinks i am not going to pay a penalty because they are not going to hold me accountable.

that changes in november. they see him as a wrecking ball and want to be protected. >> "the new york times," showing the president telling his fixer lawyer to pay in cash to playboy model karen mcdougal. >> i'm all over that. when it comes to the financing. >> listen, what financing? >> we'll have to pay -- >> no, no. >> no, no. any trump's legal team advance an interpretation. as the times reports in the white house version, that is the trump version as per rudy giuliani, mr. trump told mr. cohen, don't pay in cash. and you can't hear the word

don't. repeated screenings of the tape do not clearly reveal mr. trump saying the words don't pay with, an omission that would entirely change the comment. peter, you guys did a study a due diligence study of the tape. you can't find the word don't. that transcript they put out was nixonian. do they have a guide book at the white house, do what nixon did. >> a lot like the helsinki thing, where he said he meant would rather than wouldn't -- don't pay in cash. a tape that is not 100% clear. as we have listened to it again and again, we don't hear the word don't. important distinction. we will see if the special counsel hears it the same way.

>> what did you make of the fact that decided not to release. they had access to the same tape and refused to release the tape, they released a transcript that they typed up themselves. that is what nixon did. anything but let the evidence out. >> transcripts are controlled by the person who does the transcribing. so that is why the original tape is the most important piece of evidence in any circumstance. and why any defendant, anybody on the receiving end would prefer to control the information as it comes out and present it in favorable light. >> the "wall street journal"

reported as the chief financial officer of the trump organizations wiselberg was one described by a person close to the organization -- according to one former trump's organization employee. he has always been in the news recently because michael cohen mentioned his name in the conversation when he discussed a payment to silence playboy model. >> i need to open up a company regarding the info -- >> give it to me. >> i have spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up with funding -- yes. and it is all. >> let me go to joyce on that.

do you think they have got the tax returns? they are going for the guy that prepared the tax returns. your thoughts. >> first you get is, first you get the tax returns. and then you get the accountant. it looks like the al capone case. >> this is with a great attorney and professor of tax law did for robert kennedy. let me ask you one legal question. if trump was talking about corporate money and wiselberg handles that. if that money was used to pay off someone on the eve of election. it is not his own contribution,

it is corporate money. talk about that, judge. >> so, it sounds like you don't really need to have anyone explain the law to you. this is a well-established line saying you can't fungblely. open himself up to a whole species of tax crimes if this money is intermingled and not reported. campaign violations that could be lurking >> why bring in chief financial officer. >> if we are arguing over cash or check, he has us in the direction he wants us in because we are not focused on the bigger picture. not how any honorable president should act. >> do you think this would

surprise his people? >> probably not. needs an mri to his financing and campaigns and personal dealing. >> peter baker, we are going to get to this in the next segm, but the manner in which way this guy gets away from his behavior. said what he did on the "access hollywood" tape. any one of these would have staggered any other politician running for any office and yet trump walks through it. >> he does. and part of the way he walks through it is he doesn't look back. he is not ashamed of it and he doesn't express regress or remorse. he doesn't act like he is doing anything wrong. he returns fire. all about the witch hunt, the fake media. he doesn't exhibit the way

politicians in both parties have in the past. he doesn't take it back. he doesn't act as if he has done anything wrong. so i think it is that brazen approach moving forward has worked for him so far. never had anybody like bob mueller on his tail before. see how that ends up. >> thank you peter baker, eric swalwell, and joyce vance. could another president get away from what donald trump does all the time. ban ishes reporters from press events. attacks his own justice department. and at what point does america say enough, buddy. trump is in the midwest today where in some states approval is under water. and the deadline to reunite migrant families is only hours away now.

more than 700 families still don't know when or if they will see their loved ones. ivanka and jarred are not headed back to new york any time soon. this is "hardball." where the action is. the chili pepper sweat-out. not cool. freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting? now that's cool! coolsculpting safely freezes and removes fat cells with little or no downtime. and no surgery. results and patient experience may vary. some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort,and swelling. ask your doctor if coolsculpting is right for you and visit coolsculpting.com today for your chance to win a free treatment.

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plus get $150 when you bring in your own phone. its a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call or visit a store today. if president obama did what president trump did in helsinki, i would be peeling you off the capitol ceiling. >> good line. bob menendez yesterday. yesterday the white house banned a cnn reporter from a press event because according to the white house she was too persistent in her questioning of the president. i would never get in there. earlier in the day president took steps to yank security

clearance. attacked his own justice department. yesterday, his national security advisor called the legitimate investigation by mueller a witch hunt. meanwhile, he praised kim jong-un. and warning iran that they will suffer consequences the likes through which few have suffered before. would any other president earn universal condemnation. republican allies continue to stand by their man. joined by ron reagan. and michael steele. i will say this about barack obama who i did respect a lot, admired a lot. if he had three marriages and talked about women like the president we have now, if he had done any time, any time trump

does anything, he would have been keel hauled or whatever. he wouldn't be there. >> you are exactly right. no prefavious president would he gotten away with a tenth that trump has. his base, really they aren't in touch with reality. he seems to hate the people they do. it is really the real trump derangement syndrome. it is not with us, it is with them. >> my vietnam, he told howard stern was to avoid sexually

transmitted diseases during vietnam. is that a campaign. >> i think ron has got it right. the bottom line is that trump is in the safe space because he has a base that is with him regardless and don't like the same people he doesn't like. and that safe space includes a congress, house and senate that is not disposed to do anything to disrupt that flow. because they are afraid of that base. when they are seeing 70% to 90% approval. >> ron, you say they hate who he hates. i hate to use your father, but a great example. he said the head of the soviet

union -- there is a difference. >> if you think about trump's base, and we are talking about trump's base. >> they don't like putin. they don't like putin, his base. >> they do like putin. putin's popularity has gone up. >> their love of putin, or trump's love of putin? >> hand in hand. if trump loves putin, they will love him too. >> how about kim jong-un? how far can you stretch the fact that if you like trump, you go along with his crap. and it is crap. there is something that we haven't gotten to. if he says it,s true. this has never been true before. >> a real good reason for that

is that they still see him as the guy who is fighting for them at the core that they see want done. they are pushing back, they stay with him because he is putting forward. >> let's talk about women. three guys, just projection here. a guy who paid off one porn star, and paying off another one. doing it on tape. this sleaze going on. engaging in these extra marital affairs and paying them off to keep them quiet. and doesn't pay the price of one point in the polls. >> ask those educated white women who voted for why they did. >> how does he get this

dispossession. >> the beneficiary ishop who do >> the husbands of these women who like him and put up with him, they don't get the dispensation. >> how about the fathers of the teenage girls, where he brags on radio sneaking into their dressing room imagine if president obama did something like that. >> meanwhile, trump's tax cut which is supposed to be a winning issue is pushing the federal deficit to $1 trillion. i remember not a million years ago, that republicans was for free trade. and they did have a sense of fiscal responsibility. they talked it. this guy doesn't even talk the talk. he does whatever he wants and they don't care.

>> they don't care. listen to some of these speeches. these incoherent gibberish. stock phrases. still shouting lock her up. >> who is the her? does it matter anymore? >> no, insert name here. >> there is no limit. there is nothing that trump can do. he can shoot somebody on fifth avenue, literally, not literally, but figuratively, and they still love him. >> it is going to get worse. >> the democrats are not offering a strong alternative voice to compete. >> who is the leader of the democrat party. we will get to that in the next few years. everybody is going out for a second beer after listening to you, ron. they are not too happy with the

world. thank you, ron reagan. we have to do this once in a while. thank you michael steele. some of trump's policy making headways. will his base turn out. his on going bromance with vladimir putin. this is "hardball." where the action is. ught, who would have guessed? an energy company helping cars emit less. making cars lighter, it's a good place to start, advanced oils for those hard-working parts. fuels that go further so drivers pump less. improving efficiency is what we do best. energy lives here. improving efficiency is what we do best. overwhelming air fresheners can send you running... so try febreze one.

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welcome back to "hardball." roughly 100 days out from the midterm election in november. and the president acting nervous. he has reversed himself on a number of issues. delayed meeting with vladimir putin until 2019. and he promised to bail out farmers hurt by tariff war. today trump traveled to two midwestern states where he tried to convince voters that his tough talk on tariffs will work out. it is a tough sell. in iowa tumbled. and just yesterday a new nbc poll shows the president under water well below 50 in three

states. 38 voters in minnesota approve. i am joined by jason johnson. some of those states like michigan, wisconsin, he carried. not doing so well right now. who is telling trump that you have to fix these things with tariffs. >> probably the governor. if you want me to keep this job, keep me doing what i am doing, you are going to need to do something about this. he is killing these guys at local election. he is dragging down these guys who can't explain his policy. >> the democrats need a leader to beat trump, but don't need a leader in this stuff. >> if you are going against donald trump, all you need is somebody who can fight with him

directly. his policies are more dangerous than him. >> all politics is local. hits people where they are. they just vote no. >> vote against his policies. i called some friends in ohio. third shifts are getting shut down. >> what is that the graveyard? >> that is i have to pay for my kid's tuition in the fall. if the steel tariffs keep going that is corre , that is going to damage these workers. >> it is july, it will be august in a week. >> he has basically until labor day.

policies. >> resorted to more farm welfare. faf farmers don't want aid, they want trade. it has been compounded furthering debt in this country. >> governor -- >> if this policy can't be explained and if people in north east ohio are being hurt by these policies. >> he is tough. >> and he is still well-loved. he is the guy who stood up to him. the president can't find a way to say adding these tariffs and lowering these prices for you.

>> how is he explaining i am not demanding the wall right now. >> all he has to say is it is going to be made. the wall has always been symbolic. symbolic to people who are worried about immigration, people who are racist. he can back off from this now. >> thank you, jason johnson. up next, president trump is shouting no collusion from the rooftops but holding back from obstruction. does this mean he is worried? you bet. he won't take any construction about obstruction. headline about reuniting migrant families with their children. will they be able to get those families back together in time? you are watching "hardball." women in the suburbs. like safe driver, paperless. the list goes on.

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tweeting is like a typewriter. when i put it out, you put it immediately on your show. they are well crafted. i am a good student. i am a person who does well with that. when somebody says something about me, i am able to take care of it. the other way, i am not able to get the word out. >> nonstop twitter feed has been a staple. he calls it a direct line to the people. those comments are now causing trump's lawyers serious concern. investigating whether his tweets. i am joined by the "hardball"

roundtable. i want to start with vivian. he tweets it, he does it so openly. >> it is the bain of existence for his lawyers. this is the problem as we are talking about obstruction of justice. twitter is a factor. when we are talking about firing comey, you have people on both sides saying, was there justification for it. was that obstruction of justice. with twitter, the problem is that no one can control the president. so he has the potential to go rogue. this is something that concerns his lawyers. it could be so sensitive and one word can completely trigger any suspicion that the president was acting intelligen acting intentionally. >> i love that he is so

impulsive. >> the lawyers have this, excited utterance. his tweets, bing, bing, are his exciting utterances. >> it is so impressive. >> i would like to say on television, my lsats were really high. >> what was the phrase? >> excited utterances. it would be unprecedented for prosecutor to make a case solely on obstruction case based solely on twitter. but that is not what i think mueller would be thinking about here if he were to argue. it is a tapestry. it is tweets plus. it is other things. the tweets aren't criminal. >> what about, let's take the case to nail this down. the stuff he says about jeff

sessions. you recused yourself, i hate you for it. why are you still there. can't you protect me? can't you protect me, jeff. he is doing it all the time. >> a lot of the argument that we seem to be hearing is that this has been reported. this is old news. i am not the lawyer on this panel, but i am sure that is not how the law works. if you are pressured whether it is on twitter or behind closed doors, i don't think mueller is going to care which is which. you saw the white house lawyers or people close to the white house saying we are worried that mueller is going to try to stitch it together and build a narrative. that is called building a case. >> that is exactly right. that is called building a case. >> thank you from the lsat

genius. this is serious business for trump administration to reunite the migrant families. according to most resent -- recent updates. according to court documents, been roughly 27 cases. they signed away their children. >> there are reports that these people didn't know in many cases that is what they were doing. >> who got the children? the custody of the children, the foster families? wards of the state? >> nonprofits as well. that were taking charge of these families. the overall stories have to remain on the hundreds of children not with their families. this is another example of how

the administration has completely botched this. you still have agencies that are not talking to each other. >> let me throw the ball in the air. suppose there had not been anybody blowing the whistle. going through with their plans, separation, detention. it seems to me they never had a plan to reunite. >> to have any kind of sweeping policy on this one, wherever single case on a case by case bases offers a unique circumstance. it is taking a very long time and these court deadlines not helping the situation and they say, well, this child came in with adult supervision but not the parents but the parents might be in this state. or the children came along. >> nobody told them this was going to happen. >> their arguments were this

will help deter. >> without all the consequences considered? >> anybody should have known the consequences. they didn't plan for the consequences. it is not an administration known for careful planning. >> speaking of families, now to the roma novs. he was joined by senior advisor ivanka. they don't plan on heading back to new york any time soon. they are now preparing to stay in d.c. as long as the president does. ruth? the romanovs are ruling as always. it is unbelievable. >> she is an expert on families and caring on families and women.

so you can see the good effects on that. >> why are they given this power? hillary clinton was a graduate of yale law. these people are just family members >> the trump organization is a family business. they have no business being in the white house. but he doesn't know that. he doesn't care. >> he may care when he gets indictments of a couple of his sons, for the trump tower dealing. >> this is another reflection that the white house has struggled to get main line republicans in to work for them at least in the top level. i am not going to pretend to speak to the motivations of ivanka and jared. we should dispel with this fiction that they are mode rating forces. they make him feel comfortable. >> most importantly ivanka is an

adviser to trump. he is close with his family and cut off from some of them. and she is the one person who keeps him level headed. >> a lot of this is going to come to a head. and he will have a reckoning. next these three will tell me something i don't know. great question. see, for a full service brokerage like ours, that's tough to do. schwab does it. next question. do you offer a satisfaction guarantee? a what now? a satisfaction guarantee. like schwab does. man: (scoffing) what are you teaching these kids? ask your broker if they offer award-winning full service and low costs, backed by a satisfaction guarantee. if you don't like their answer, ask again at schwab. if you don't like their answer, with tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. new fixodent ultra-max hold

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tonight sources tell nbc news that secretary of state pompeo was blind sighted by president trump's tweet large sanctions against turkey. secretary pompeo has been involved in negotiations with brunson's release. this is not the first time in recent days that pompeo has been surprised by white house tweets on foreign policy. two white house officials confirm that he wasn't aware that trump invited putin to d.c. can you believe that? we'll be right back. a world that doesn't exist outside you, but within you where breakthrough science is replacing chemotherapy

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economist agree it is going to be a good one. a lot of it is boosted by preempted activity on tariffs. let's see what happens. >> all of us have been focused on d.c., a trio of governors amping up their 2020 activity. jay enzly from washington was in iowa. steve bullock from montana is in new hampshire next month. he will be in debuick next month. >> vivian scooped me. and i am not nimble enough to come up with an alternative. trump is going to take a lot of credit for these numbers and don't believe him. a lot of people who bought

things because they are worried about the tariff. the economy is going to slow down. >> with the economy booming like it is right now at least in gdp terms, he is still in the low 40s. what is he going to be when we have our recession in two years. >> and wages flat. >> i know. anyway, thank you. thank you, vivian, and gabe deben debti. ruth marcus. you are watching "hardball."

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trump watch thursday july 26, 2018. special counsel robert mueller reported to be investigating the president's tweets now as part of an effort to obstruct justice. rudy giuliani retorts the tweets cannot be part of an obstruction of justice case because they are public acts. if you are going to obstruct justice, you do it quietly and secretly, not in public. really? we all and that includes rudy

trump carries out in broad daylight. what others dare not, he dares to do and to broadcast. making a racket is his way of striking fears in rivals and under lings alike. makes clear looking at tweets. talk about a pattern of obstruction. part of a broad effort in the beginning to interfere with investigation. intimidation of james comey. pushing comey to let michael flynn off the hook. and then demanding comey that trump -- jeff sessions, his

haranguing of him to get sessions to end his recusal of himself in the mueller probe. take charge of the probe so he can do trump's bidding or get fired himself. as the times reports today, such behavior can fit under the u.s. criminal code. in other words, obstruction of justice. rudy giuliani's defense is that all of this is innocent because it is done in public. this is how he runs his presidency, whenever somebody tries to limit his power, he throws him out of the way. he threatens to fire his new chief of staff. he fired rex tillerson. and mcmaster as if he were changing tides. claiming that his client is innocent because accused behavior fits this m.o. is a

joke. the president refuses to be questioned by the special counsel about obstruction of justice. the one area where his accuracies are so well-known they require little detective work. tweeting may be trump's impulsive choice of weapon that doesn't exempt him from the law. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starting now. >> tonight on all in. the mueller probe closes in on obstruction. >> did he fight back? you fight back. oh, it's obstruction. >> as the money man for the trump organization faces michael cohen's grand jury. >> i have spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up. >> tonight, the growing legal trouble for the president. >> he knows where all of the financial