i am going to make a major speech on probably monday of next week. we're going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the clintons. i think you're going to find it very informative. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. donald trump's major speech about all the things that have taken place with the clints never happened. that in a moment you just saw from june 2016 has taken on new significance after the bombshell news this week that trump's long time fixer and former attorney, michael cohen, now claims that trump knew about the infamous trump tower meeting with a kremlin linked russian lawyer and lied about it. according to knowledgeable source, cohen is prepared to tell the special counsel that trump knew in advance about the planned meeting between his son, donald trump jr., son-in-law jared kushner, then campaign chairman paul manafort and the russian lawyer, cohen says that trump knew because donald junior

told him about it. the timeline here is important. trump's tease of a very, very interesting speech about the clintons happened on june 7. just a few hours after trump junior agreed to a date with the meeting. a meeting in which trump junior believed he would receive incriminating information about hillary clinton. reportedly from a russian government official. the actual meeting took place on june 9 in trump tower. trump continues to deny he knew about the hearing ahead of time. >> did you tell your father anything about this? >> no. it was such a nothing. there was nothing to tell. i wouldn't have even remembered it until you start scouring through the stuff. >> did you know at the time that they had the meeting. >> no, i didn't know anything about the meeting. >> the president said he became aware of it very recently, right before this came out. that's when he was notified. >> this must have been very important. it must have been a very

important meeting because i never even heard that. >> as far as you know, this is all of it. this is everything. >> this is everything. >> all right. so who do you believe? joining me now to break this down, former state department senior adviser. paul butler, professor of law at georgetown law school. former fbi agent. clint watts author of messing with the enemy. david k johnson and former watergate prosecutor. wow, we just have an embarrassment of riches. i'm going to go around the horn and talk about. i'm going to start with you paul. just on how this changes the legal case. trump tower meeting. june 3. donald trump jr. gets e-mail from rob goldstone saying moscow supports his father's candidacy. he responded if it's what you say it is, i love it. trump junior and goldstone finalize a date. same day trump teases this major speech. june 8 russian intelligence

officers launch dc leaks. june 9, trump tower meeting happened. june 14, dnc announces it servers had been hacked. >> now that we have at least one person willing to say that donald trump himself knew that that chain of events was related to the russian infiltration, does this bring us closer to what we call collusion or conspiracy. >> absolutely. so first the caution, michael cohen is shady. he's trying to snitch. he's looking for a deal. and so anything he says has to be corroborated. having said that, this is seismic. now we have president trump implicated in in cluin collusio. if it's true, it corroborates a lot of things we already know. the dossier says the reason michael cohen went to strategize with the russians about how to cover up trump's involvement with them. everything that we know about

president trump, would he allow his top aides to go to a meeting, and son, son-in-law and campaign chief and not want to know anything about the meeting especially if it's dirt on hillary. the corroboration doesn't have to be physical witnesses. although again, what cohen says that other people knew that trump knew, but it can also be circumstantial evidence like as you pointed out, the day after trump hears the dirt coming on hillary. at the rally he says there's going to be a speech next week and boy oh boy, we're going to have the dirt and doesn't actually deliver if speech because the dirt is not coming. >> let's go and see if don trump junior would do that. you've been covering donald trump for a long time. would donald trump jr. set up a meeting to get difrt on the opponent and not tell his father. >> it is inconceivable junior wouldn't tell his father. that's why we need to know what number those two blocked numbers

were that he called and let's not lose site of something here. when a foreign government calls you and offerings to help in an election. you pick up the phone and call the fbi, i need to speak to someone in counter intelligence. period. full stop. >> yes. and that clearly was not done. let's take one step back. paul butler said cohen is shady. okay. that is a take that i think is legitimate for people to have based on whatever we know about him so far. what's interesting is that inside the trump camp, they're not clear of whether cohen is shady or not depending on whose side he seems to be on. the man is a honest honorable lawyer. i suspected something like this. he's been lying for years. there's nobody that i know that knows him that hadn't warned me

that if his back is up against the wall, he'll lie like crazy. he's lied all his life. >> i've watched many mafia movies. that's a matter of loyalty. the loyalty with donald trump and staff really only goes one way. at some point, they all move away from him and move on. he's ultimately protecting himself. this is part of a broader. say the lack of ethics, right. the immediacy of having an opportunity to win is so much more important than anything that could potentially be treasonous. anything that could be harmful to the american public. this overall sense that there's this lying and shadiness is starting to affect him in the polls. in ohio, in florida.

these are places where he should be strong right now. indictments are not. the american public is going to make a decision on how they feel about donald trump in november. this is going to be an election that is responding to him, his personality. and i don't think it's going to go his way. >> it is interesting. i think it was a poll that majority of people think the russians have something on donald trump and that the independence are moving in that direction. nick, could don junior, if in fact cohen who said to paul's point that multiple people were in the room, so there is theoretically a way to easily corroborate whether he's been accurate about the idea that donald junior shared with his father we've got this meeting coming up where russian official is going to give us dirt on hillary clinton. this is what donald junior testified to the senate judiciary committee. this was september 7, 2017. let's listen. >> this is don junior being

asked about whether or not he would have told his father about this meeting. i wouldn't have wasted his time with it. i never spoke to my father about it. now senator patrick, senator feinstein want him to come back before the committee and answer more questions in light of this report. could this be criminal? >> yes, absolutely it's criminal. lying to a congressional committee is a crime. i think you have to also look at the crime that's already been charged against the russians who have been indicted for breaking into the committee. included not only the break in, but also the staging of the stolen documents. and now, with this evidence donald trump having knowledge of this conspiracy. if you recall, the initial e-mail that went from goldstone to don junior, talked about the fact that the russian government was supporting donald trump's

campaign. with knowledge beyond this conspiracy upon which 12 russians have already been indicted. so what we're looking at is another block in that evidence that shows that donald trump was part of this conspiracy. >> and before -- and i'm going to go back to the legal bit for a minute. just for a moment. i want to go to malcolm. go back and remind ourselves again of what happened. you had this attack by russians on the dnc and then you have this cascade of events all taking place in june. in which it does appear the trump campaign is going to try to take advantage at minimum of that hacked material.

well, you know, there are -- when we look at this in if broadest sense, this is only one of a series of activities that russia were carrying out. there were many active measures being cared out. almost nearly simultaneously. i like this one. this is the one where they went straight to the heart of the trump organization and were going to give information directly to donald trump jr. and possibly donald trump himself. and when they came in, it was supposed to be the russian lawyer was acting as a representative of the russian chief prosecutor general for mos causewa moscow. version of the attorney general. give dirt on hillary clinton. when they got to the meeting, she wanted to talk about adoptions which was russian speak for getting rid of the mag

nit and act which is the sanctions against the russian. l when that information comes out. it's going to be even more damaging because there's no way the entire senior staff of trump's team, jared kushner, paul manafort, all of these people are in the room and would never report to donald trump. it's implausible. >> and the whole question about collusion has been did people around donald trump decide that they were going to help his campaign by accepting information that they thought could be helpful and hurt hillary clinton that is the question. whether or not he was a knowing

asset or unwitting asset. does this information if it pans out with cohen take us closer to the idea that donald trump was a witting participant in what happened to hillary clinton in the election system. the attack on it in 2016. >> i would take it closer. unless there is some sort of physical evidence, i think we've already talked about the phone call from that unknown number, or there is some other person that will corroborate what was said by michael cohen. this is going to be a really difficult angle. the other trouble with this is it's happening now in the public. we heard cohen say this. we're hearing from secondhand sources. it's a little bit troublesome to push too far in what the revelations are that will come from it. i think is more interesting is the number of tapes, the actual recordings of the president, the number of actual physical item, the technical indicators that are out there that connect to the president. i think if there's anything in

terms of this investigation that will ultimately show collusion will have to be some hard evidence that will play out. at the same point, when you look at how the russians do their influence operations, they're looking for unwitting and witting agents to help advance their goals. throughout all of this, what we've seen is some people around the trump campaign maybe knew more of what they were involved in whereas others potentially knew less. who just open the door and seem to be opportunity. many cases around the trump campaign, you see cases of both. i don't think we'll know until the mueller investigation really closes out and further indictments come forward and who fits into which of those two camps. >> before you move on, for those who don't know what the blocked number is, can you remind people what that is. >> the sequence of events around mr. goldstone and his contacts with donald trump jr., there was a series of phone calls that were made. one of the phone calls that were

made during that time after he had been contacted by mr. goldstone was a blocked in your opinion. unknown number. no one knows who he was contacting. in the context of this chain of events with this phone call, no one knows if that is the president or someone in the president's staff that also knew about what was going on. who was promotionally coming into a meeting based on the goldstone contact. >> absolutely. just to really quickly for those of you, this piece in the "washington post" by paul and greg, this is from april 27. and it's titled the new house gop report. remember the republican senate. the house intel committee came out with a report saying it's revealing about a good way according to democratic response to nunez memo right after donald trump jr. set up specifics of the meeting in trump tower, he had two calls to the number in russia belonging to a man. between those two calls, the democratic response for trump received a third call from a blocked number and the question is who it might have been. let me go back to nick.

does this now mean there needs to be a second set of hearings that at minimum to answer the questions and make it a very salient point, there needs to be reopened. either house intel or senate intel needs to recall don junior and try to call cohen. >> if they call don junior, he's simply going to lie again. don't expect you're going hear anything different from him. he's not going to suddenly admit that he lied to the committee. i would think that with respect to cohen, they're probably not going be able to speak to him. he's going to be cooperating with the mueller investigation. keep in mind that cohen in a lot of ways is corroborated right on down the line on what happened here. it's not like this is some incident that was taken out of nowhere that suddenly we think donald trump knew about this meeting. i mean, i think it was pretty obvious to everybody he had to know. he is the one that had the blocked number for starters. also involved in going back to

most recent indictment. he asked the russians in public to actually hack into hillary clinton's e-mail and her server an hours later that's exactly what they did. >> joy, i tell you where those blocked phone records are now. a few miles from here and reporter mueller's office. he already knows whether president trump was called by don junior and we all know a few words what the subject of the conversation. >> my panel is all sticking around. here's the other fun part. putin likes to take things that happen around him. there seems presumably to be a way to affirmatively find out if it were true. multiple people in the room. it will be interesting to know how this plays out. continue this on the other side of the break. we'll be right back.

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just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening. >> paging george, donald trump's full on gaslighting on america gained knew steam with that particular gem. complaining about the media coverage of trade policy. banal pa panel is back. talking about the fact donald trump is still denying. we should repeat that. he's denying had he knew in advance when he said i'm going to do this great speech on hillary clinton. he's denying he knew a meeting was going to be set up.

we also know for a fact he dictated don junior's cover story for the meeting from air force one. how does all of that work together. in papers in mueller. trump said he -- it was a falls narrative about the subject of ma meeting. and why do you lie? why you cover up if everything is on the up and up. so that's consciousness of guilt on president trump's part and we think about guilty of what? at least four crimes. campaign violations, computer fraud if trump knew the information was coming from hacked hehack ed e-mails. conspiracy to the united states and obstruction of justice. that memo, press release was a flat out lie. >> what's interesting, the committee to protect the president. these house republicans who have made it their mission led by the

chairman of the house intelligence committee and his fellow travelers there. they've tried to say this entire narrative is a lie made up on the basis of the christopher steel dossier. that essentially a political document designed to destroy donald trump is the basis for all of this. at this point, the calls are coming from inside the house. okay. michael cohen is mad and not going to take it anymore is a vanity fair headline. cohen, very knowledgeable about cohen. she reports there's a lot more to come. there's a lot. you're with someone for ten years. you don't think there's a lot. the trump organization is a big business and nobody in that place made a decision without his knowledge. so the idea, it's not christopher steel. it's his own people. >> he is known to be a micro manager. somebody who refuses to let go of the reigns in any way and as of -- didn't necessarily work for him as a businessman because he's been bankrupt 11 times. certainly doesn't trust expertise of other business people. it's not working as president. typically, this is why the

president has a committee to protect him within the white house. right. you're supposed to have people instead, donald trump is getting down into the weeds of even what a press release says and trying to control his own narrative to the point where it's his ego rather than the facts taking over everything. that ultimately that ego is going to be his downfall. >> david k. johnson, now you have the trump organization finance chief being called to testify against the committee. allen weisselberg. considered a witness. people said according to the "wall street journal." tell us a little bit about the trump organization and how it can get dragged in in you view. how involved is the trump organization in the political organization. >> oh, this is all one piece.

he's also not a detailed person. he issues directives. allen weisselberg's involvement with the trump family goes back to when fred trump was running the organization. let's not forget fred trump's business partner was willie, identified in law enforcement reports as a front for the gam bee know and behalf families. all the money, in and out. he may be in a position when he's called to testify invokes fifth amendment right. i'm sure prosecutors and you can talk about this, would in a moment give him immunity transactional or prof lactic because we don't care about him. he's not the focus of this. he knows where the money went and where the money came in and where it went out is critical to understanding what is going on here.

>> who would get them in front of grand jury. >> weisselberg is clearly one of those people. he was involved in every single one of donald trump's tax returns. you could look at the return and understand what happened without having a tax preparer actually explain the entries and take you through the flow of money and flow of information that goes from the underlying records, whatever those may be, into the returns. so in a sense, weisselberg is extremely important witness with respect to understanding how the money came into russia, went into the trump obama administration. how it was reported. what companies were used to hide that money, who was responsible for that, and then what happened to that money. so it's not just a matter of we

could all have his returns, but you really need somebody like weisselberg who can really explain to you what those numbers mean and the significance of everything that appears on those returns. >> and clint, you know, i think one of the things that frustrates a lot of people when they look back at all that happened on the 2016 campaign is that while the cia was on fire about the foreign piece of what russian russia was doing down to the granular piece saying they're trying to help one of the presidents get elected. the fbi was very slow and deliberate about proceeding to that conclusion. is this complexity we're talking about where you've got the trump organization tied to it. donald trump and his family tied to it. is this the reason it did take so long for the fbi to get there in your view. you have to remember how the fbi works. the hacki ining opens up a occa. you have to do the hacking and

track it back. that takes a very long time in cyber. you've seen that. it took many years for them to get that level of attribution. the other part is you don't necessarily know the financial transactions, especially if they have not be part of the case, are tied to any sort of foreign influence. the third big thing to remember is the fbi's mission is to do counter espionage. counter intelligence program is really going after spies. part of this is no one really has the assignment from protecting the american public from foreign influence. there is no agency that is really part of that. there is no task force. there's no interview you go to for that. so when the fbi looks at this, they're looking at a series of cases. they're going to be very slow to do this. you're not really looking to try to identify how a foreign influence would work in social media in hacking maybe through white colored crime or through oligarchs or meeting with foreign contacts. each of those take a long time

to develop. putting it together is not something they can do very quickly gl thatquick ly. >> that's a very important point. we're going to keep this panel. mall couple, tee you up on the other side of break. that's one thing that frustratings people they don't understand. the fbi investigates domestic crimes, but this other foreign intelligence piece. we were talking about it on the show every week. let's talk about why it wasn't able to be stopped and then some of the threats to the next election because they're already happening. much more coming back. stay right there. (vo) why are subaru outback owners always smiling? because they've chosen the industry leader. subaru outback holds its value better than any other vehicle in its class, according to alg. better than rav4. better than grand cherokee.

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russia is already at it again. microsoft has revealed the same russian intelligence group responsible for the dnc e-mail attack in 2016 known as fancy bear has been using the exact same technique against candidates in this year's midterms that they used against the dnc and hillary clinton called fishing. >> earlier this year we did discover a fake microsoft platform had been made for fishing attacks. being directed at three c candidates who are all standing for midterm elections.

they were all people because of their positions might have been interesting targets from an espionage standpoint. >> microsoft says that the phony site was taken down and that the fishing was thwarted. we know one candidate that has been targeted by russia in 2018. more on that from my panel next. ♪

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we must. we have no choice. we must lower or taxes. your senator, claire, she must do this for you and if she doesn't do it for you, around the same time when donald trump called for her ouster from the senate, missouri senator claire became a target of a fishing attempt. executed by the same russian intelligence agency responsible for the dnc hacks of 2016. according to reporting by the daily beast, she is one of the most vulnerable democrats -- according to the daily beast. one of the most vulnerable democrats for re-election this year. running in a tossup state that trump won. i will not be intimidated. i've said it before and i will say it again. putin is a thug and bully.

we know it's happening again. we know one of the people it's happened to. donald trump this week on tuesday puts out a tweet saying, i'm very concerned russia. that russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming election based on the fact that no president has been tougher on russia than me. okay. they'll be pushing very hard for the democrats. they definitely don't want trump. former intelligence officer, what does that say to you. he is trying to say the russians will sbfr. he admits it. it will be to help the democrats. >> i've sat on this show and i don't know how many times i said this the next election if there's a blue wave, the russians could metal -- not metal. they could carry out another attack either through registration station or direct messing with the ballots in

order to jeopardize the win or loss of the election. and that will be setting the grounds for civil war, really to be quite honest. donald trump is gaslighting us on this issue. he, i don't know where this vulnerability in him comes from. letter of intent said only robert mueller is going to be able to get to the bottom of whatever debt he has for the russians, but he is definitely afraid. definitely afraid of having it found out what actually happened the last time. this is a key component of the russian strategy. >> please explain it to us. what could it be. donald trump has been completely immune to sexual scandal. his base literally does not care about any of that. wouldn't hurt if they did have some sort of sexual compromise on him. what is it that -- i mean, if donald trump is afraid of the

russians, then why would he be in your view. >> first and foremost, the fact that donald is coated in heavy teflon says something very bad about the state of democracy in america and putin's underlying goal here is to disrupt and destroy democracy. you can read his own words about this in russian publications. donald knows perfectly well he is deeply indebted to russian interest. russian speaking interest for money. where did he -- nobody would loan him money, where did he come up with all this cash to buy places? what commitments has he made? what is the full extent of his vomit with the russian gangster felix sader who has been able to manipulate the federal government and not going to prison for running a $40 million stock scam. there's plenty they have to worry about from coming out. trying to help the democrats. right out of the soviet play

book. if nobody trusts anybody who wins, whoever is in power. >> literally had to find indictable cases. not they could have stopped what happened themselves. you had the intelligence community that was trying to attempt to do something about i. now we have a prove of what's going on mpltson. i want to play christopher ray. the. >> we haven't yet seen an effort to target specific election infrastructure this time, but certainly other efforts what i would call malign influence operations are very active. and we could be just a moment away from it going to the next level. >> and really quickly, the malign influence against one specific person, claire up for senate re-election. here's adam slif ranking member talking about a hacking attempt

against her. >> that's really ominous to consider that the same russian actors may have been involved in trying to hack a vulnerable democratic senators campaign right around the same time that president trump called for her ouster from the senate, but what is also distressing to me is the ranking number on the intelligence committee is to learn about these efforts by the russian hackers from comments by microsoft employees at the summit rather than be -- hearing about this from our intelligence community. it shows just how unprepared we are. >> so you know, i'm going to bring you in, but i want to come to you about this. you worked in the state department. i feel like the first time we were all learning about it in realtime. and we're all acting in the moment. the obama administration was agonizing because the response to it would have been a political response. mitch mitch mcconnell made it

clear. he would have come out and attacked. in in the way putin was. announced publicly what was going on in france. what could have been done and in this case, now that we have a pr preview of what they're doing, what should be done. >> part of it at the time is let's not undermine hillary clinton who was everybody at that point in political circles thought was going to win. they did not want to delegitimize her election either and wanted to stay out of it. in hindsight, we've seen and writings of former obama administration officials and president obama himself, there is agonizing over if they did an injustice to the american people. the president sits at the intersection of dmesic and international policy. right. cia is not allowed legally to interfere with the united states. fbi can't do anything overseas. the president is the one making the policy decisions of how you connect the two. after the election, president obama imposed sanctions on russians. kicked out russian agents.

shutdown known spy facilities immediately after the election. donald trump is now trying to take credit for those actions that happened in the obama administration. has been directed by congress to impose additional sanctions. has done none of that. instead he's decided to invite this adversary personally to the white house during the next election. by giving a former kgb agent access on u.s. soil. that is abdication of the responsibility the white house has. that is fundamentally what putin regime is relying on is the chaos of the lack of leadership. >> you're getting an amen from malcolm on that. seems to be opening the door. >> if the president won't act. in fact, i think he's also open to going to moscow himself. he's sort of planning for friendship with russia. the if the congress, trepublicas that control are more focused on

protecting the president than acting, then what can the candidates be doing. we know there were three people targeted. let's put up the list of democratic senators who are the most vulnerable. these are the ten democrats elected in states where donald trump won. claire, joe donnelley of indiana. north dakota, joe mansion of west virginia, bob casey in pennsylvania, which is a state trump is fixated on. montana, wisconsin, ohio, florida. would you advise any democratic who believes they have been the target of the same kind of fishing campaigns that were done to hillary clinton to come out with it. emmanuel macron style. >> yes, they should. the only thing the candidates can do at this point, donald trump not going to have their back at all. he doesn't have the country's back and doesn't have the democrat's back. he thinking russia is going to help democrats. the thing about that tweet as

well. when he tweeted that, he knew the threat had occurred. so there is no bottom to donald trump. there no truth either. never have we seen before a small man such a small man hold such a large office. and i'll throw in one more reason. i think that he's doing this because his ego is so large. his ego is so big. it's preventing him to stop the attack of russia because he believes that the moment he acknowledges this attack in his twisted thinking, then it will diminish his victory. so instead of protecting the country, he's of course thinking about himself, but as it comes to these candidates, the only thing they can do is work with law enforcement. work with the fbi, hire cyber experts to work with them on this because they're not going to have what we saw house republicans vote down funding to get -- for states to get more

money to protect themselves from election security. so they're not going to get any help. they have to do it themselves. it should be out there to the public. we can't trust donald trump. he's not going to tell us the truth. as american people who are going to go vote, we need to know what's going on out there. >> what do you make of sort of what seems to be at least from the outside looking in. the renaissance of the democrats to really lean in on this issue. they seem not really to want to talk about russian interfere. they want to run on local issues. important, the economy and health care. i will reiterate again the emmanuel ma cron was attacked in exactly the same way when he ran for the presidency of france. they went full board. this is what's happening. don't believe any of this garbage you're seeing. and hillary clinton come out and said, hello, pizza gate is part of conspiracy. i don't know. i guess a lot of viewers may be along with me wondering why democrats seem to be so reticent to say, yes this is happening. >> democrats are uning on

issues. the number one issue right now that is really resinating with voters is health care. while the russian interference is important to voters, it's 60%. not that they should run on it. other issues very important to folks. everyone, every folks who are running and competitive house you know, democratic house districts, they're going to run the different type of races that work for them, but, yes, i think that as we go on, we are talking about russia now. we've been talking about russia for the last week. because of the helsinki conference and meeting and summit. whatever it was. that we saw two weeks ago. it has been out there, but you know, it's going to be up to the folks running in the state and to claire 's credit. she's been talking about russia. that's one of the reasons she's in the cross hairs. she's been talking about russia since 2013. they've been coming off her since then. >> i wonder then if we're going to wake up on the morning after

the election and start doing another round of stories about elections that were stolen or that were attacked by a foreign adversary as we had all of this we know there were 21 states that were targeted by those same russian hackers who were indicted. we now have indictments of a group of gru-linked russians who attacked our election systems in key states like colorado, connecticut, illinois. we know this happened. are we going to wake up on the morning after the 2018 election and say, it happened again? >> i'm not sure. i think in terms of what the russians are pursuing, there are only a few congressional races that would make any significance for them or any gain. ultimately, we should remember the long-run goal of this subversion technique is for us to doubt our own democracy, our institutions and our elected leaders. to think they aren't legitimate. they maybe didn't get there on their own or something was shady. if we remember back to 2016,

election-rigged voter fraud was a major theme that was used. i'm sure they would like to reintroduce that again. a good way to do that is to create provocational hacking attempts, specifically on voter rolls just to so doubt so you can influence around it. we should also remember that hacking to power influence comes in the year before the elections. so, what you saw was senator mccaskill, those attacks were starting in about august of 2017. this matches up with the playbook we saw from the kremlin where they started hacking in the fourth quarter of 2015. and next year, whoever's running for president, they should also start looking, if they're going to use this playbook again, if russia makes a decision, they will do that and forecast it by doing hacking. that hacking will start about 15 months from now if they're going to use this technique again against the united states. so, we know what the technique looks like, but whenever we're trying to decide how we're going to combat it, it's taken 18 months for this administration to have one 30-minute meeting about how we're going to mount a defense against russian

influence. if the president's worried about the democrats winning in november because the russians are tipping it towards him, he is the president of the united states. he can do something about it if he wants to. i don't know why he has to get on twitter and cry about it. >> not only him, malcolm, but the republicans. one would think it's a bipartisan issue that we do not want foreign adversaries attacking our elections, but the republicans are -- mitch mcconnell came out and said, they better not mess with us. okay. last time he told president obama you better not say anything about it because i'll say you're being partisan for hillary clinton. in the indictment against those russian officials who participate in the attack against the elections, this is from the indictment, on or about august 15, 2016, the conspirators posing as guccifer 2.0. we do forget it wasn't just donald trump. are you concerned, malcolm, with

two years advanced warning we're still going to wake up on the morning after the election saying this happened again but it happened to candidates for senate and house? >> yeah, i'm concerned. clint's right. it may not happen at the tactical level of races which were really close and somebody had more influenced operations put out against them. i think if they're going to go after it, they'll go after the whole system. and when i mean the whole system, they could just massively run a program and try to get into voter databases, even if they're not successful. so, as clint called it provocation actions out there throughout the electorate, but on this time to maybe they do it against the republicans in order to stoke that unrest and create a situation where a win would be completely considered invalid by one-third of the united states. i want you to just think about it for a moment. that's the fundamental basis for a civil war. that, of course, would allow

trump to consolidate power if he wanted to. i don't know. it's a nightmare scenario. but what we should be doing is every person needs to understand, their individual vote is securable if they vote early, if they get out there and they mobilize other people to vote and we make it so there is no margin that this could have an effect. >> yeah, absolutely. very important to vote early. >> and the relationship between this and the michael cohen revelation is that if president trump knew michael cohen said he diplomat only know about the meeting with the russians, he authorized it, he wanted it to happen, which meant he wanted to work with the russians to steal the election. we don't have to wonder why president trump isn't being more proactive. it's not ineptness, it's not ignorance. if we believe what's coming out of the mueller probe, it's that president trump is actively working with the russians to subvert our democracy. >> and, nick, i think then we

run up against the question, what can you do about it? there's a finding even -- this is a huge projection because this isn't on the table yet. if mueller were to find crimes involving the president of the united states either before he were president or obstruction afterwards, after he was elected, what actually could be done about it? the republican house of representatives have made it pretty clear that they're not interested in doing anything to donald trump or in holding him accountable. so, what could, in theory, mueller do? >> i think -- >> even if he finds crimes? >> i think if he finds a crime, i think if they really find the evidence that looks like is there, that he basically committed treason, that he conspired with the russians to stage the release of those e-mails -- now, don't forget, going back to that june 9th meeting at trump towers relating to sanctions and lifting of sanctions on russia, that was the quid pro quo for the help in the election. so, you've got a bribe being conferred upon the president-elect, the statute

permits that in a certain period of time. it seems to me with that kind of evidence, and if it's strong, the only remedy we really have is for mueller to bring an indictment against donald trump. and if that's what the evidence is, that's where it should go. >> a way that that's accomplished is he's got the goods on don junior now. there's a clear perjury case to be made against him. so, he goes to the president and says, resign, agree not to run for re-election and we won't go after your boy. >> wow. this is -- this is a great panel. i wish we could do another hour, but we can't. we have to let these guys have a day. guys, thank you very much. paul butler, malcolm nance, clint watts, david k. johnson, nick ackerman. karene, we'll let you go. up next, donald trump turns the tea party into socialists. there's more coming after the break.

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how about this, president, new administration, why don't you put up a website to have people vote on the internet as a referendum to see if we really want to subsidize the losers' morni mortgages. how many of you want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and bedroom? raise your hands.

president obama, are you listening? we're thinking of having a chicago tea party in july. all you capitalists that want to show up to lake michigan, i'm going to start organizing it. >> remember that? welcome back to "am joy." that was cnbc analyst rick santelli shouting with indignation with president obama's proposal to bail out foreclosures. that five-minute rant brought santelli much more than internet fame. it was the spark that led to the creation of the tea party, a movement of disillusioned conservative, libertarian and popular americans railing against the stimulus plan to rescue the economy and demanding smaller government, lower taxes, slashed government spending and the reduction of the national debt. santelli's call for a new version of the boston tea party that kicked off the american revolution inspired nationwide protests just months into the new administration. featuring tea bags dangling from tri-corner hats and rather

conspicuous obama rage, even upside down flags, a tea party political distress signal. the tea party movement funded heavily by libertarian like the koch brothers, sending the likes of rand paul and 86 other republicans to the house. the tea party freshmen even formed their own house caucus. fast forward to this week when the republican president announced $12 billion, with a "b," in temporary relief to farmers who have been hurt by donald trump's trade tariffs as well as news the white house's midyear budget projections see federal deficits surpassing $1 trillion, with a "t" in 2019. so, where is the tea party? has anybody seen them? tea party? where's the outrage? sure, there have been some critics of the president, some criticism of the president among republican lawmakers over the tariffs and the bailout, but the tea party, they now appear to be

sipping the kofefi. joining me is phil russo, a former member of the orlando tea party. phil and i have known each other for a very long time, mostly interacting over e-mail and online because you were in the tea party. we had many, many debates about the tea party back in it the day where you would say it's not about race, it's about small government and economics. in your view, what happened to them? they are not available to talk about donald trump bailing out farmers and doing tariffs. >> first of all, thank you for having me, joy. it's always great to chat with you about these things. unfortunately, i think americans for prosperity and some other groups which, you know, i like those groups, but when they started getting involved and money started becoming an issue with the tea party groups and some of the groups got bigger than others and the populists

and libertarians you talked about in the opening started to drift away and all you were left with was people who were conservative or republic party activists anyway. the tea party became the activist wing of the republican party, unfortunately. >> but, you know, this is a debate that, like i said, we had back then and that i kind of want to have again, phil, because there was a sense among a lot of people who were observing those rallies where you'd see the witch doctor, president obama depicted as a witch doctor. a lot of really racist signage, that the tea party was saying it was about small government and that the funders of it, the people like the koch brothers cared about cutting their own taxes and not paying social services. but people who showed up just really hated barack obama. i wonder now that you see they are silent, the people they elected are now quietly going along with the idea of a huge farm bailout, that maybe the people who said the tea party was not real, that it was really

about a discomfort with the black president maybe were right? >> well, i think -- joy, i really think it was real at first. i think the first rallies, the first six months to a year of it was real. you have -- i spoke to people in orlando at the events that told me that they had never been to a political event before. they were registered independents. they were people who had never been involved before, but you played a clip of rick santelli's rant. that kind of motivated them and they were angry. those people that i spoke to, i don't think they were motivated by anything other than just anger that the idea the government is not listening to them and they felt powerless and wanted to get up and scream. now, unfortunately, you know, i think we all know there were, you know, some racist elements on the fringe of the tea party,

but i think that was a very small minority of the people that we saw certainly here in orlando. i can't speak for every city, but you did see that. but, like, that -- they were kind of our cross to bear, you know. i don't think just because there were a few racist people that showed up and held ignorant signs that that means the message about limiting the government so it's small enough to fit inside the constitution is necessarily a bad message just because, you know, a few lunatics subscribe to it as well. >> let me come to you on this, jennifer, because one of the things that is sort of fascinating about the sort of tea party/palin/trump. it's largely the same demographic base because the tea party was portrayed as this working class base but they were more affluent so they're kind of the same trump people. are you surprised as someone

yourself who has traversed the ideological plane. you're not conservative anymore. you're a conservative, not a republican. >> this is a joke because i still believe in free trade. i still believe you don't go around giving welfare to corporate farmers and they have completely abandoned this view. i think there's a lot more to what you say than, perhaps, the defenders of the tea party want to admit. i think what they were motivated by was anger. you can say it was racial anger, you can say it was anger simply about losing an election, but when donald trump came around and gave them permission to be angry about race, to be angry about immigrants, to be angry about elites, they said, yeah, that's what we're really angry about. so, i think it was this almost anti-elitism, which you definitely saw during the tea party, that has now been formulated, has been reduced, has been really set in stone as

a nativist, protectionist party. and it is the same people. and i think the rest of the republican party, the kochs and the rest of them, they're not all that pleased. you see the koch brothers now campaigning against restrictionism, you see them campaigning against the bailouts, campaigning against protectionism. because i think on an ideological level, some are very sincere. >> they don't want to pay taxes or social services. >> that's their philosophy. i think when you look at the individuals, we are talking about the same people. we're talking about nine college educated white working class people in rural america. those -- >> and affluent suburbanites. >> i think they, frankly, have been playing the game. let the yahoos put them into office and we'll get our taxes. >> bob corker, who still sounds like what republicans used to sound like, came out and proposed this farm aid policy. he says you have a terrible policy that sends farmers to

poor house and then you put them on welfare. i wish he knew a senator that he could talk to about that. >> i wish there was an independent body, like a co-equal branch of government that could do something. >> wouldn't that be amazing? >> yes. >> why aren't republicans like bob corker who had supposed to be small government conservatives, why does he say he wishes there was a revolt instead of leading a revolt? >> first of all, he's getting out. second of all, he sees where the party has gone. they are the trump party. this is a nativist, protectionist, big government kind of whack-a-doodle party which is about power and this cult of donald trump. the only people you hear speaking up are leaving congress. >> let me bring you in here because the author kind of interesting feature of tea party-era trumpism is they see

the same sets of data as catastrophe during obama and as brilliant and wonderful and fabulous when it's donald trump when the data doesn't change. you had donald trump come out and tout strong 4.1% growth in q2, second quarter of 2018. john harwood, great cnbc analyst for us here at cnbc points out that that would rank fifth if you measured it against the strong quarters of the obama presidency. it would rank fifth behind four different quarters of the obama presidency. you had people who said the economy was terrible on january 19, 2009 -- i mean, 2009 -- i'm sorry, this year, of 2019 -- what am i saying? 2017. >> there you go. >> of 2017. i was out late last night. who then on the day donald trump was inaugurated said the economy is great, trump fixed it. what is going on here with conservativism? >> joy, the opportunistic use of gdp data to say my party is great and the other party is terrible, that's been going on a long time.

i want to go back to the original point about the tea party was originally about the rick santelli rant and a genuine, organic outpouring of opposition to bailouts and the like. i think that's true. but very quickly we saw something very different happen. remember the same people who were saying, obamacare is the root to single payer health care. that wasn't in 2016 or 2017, that was in 2010, 2011. i remember going to a tea party rally in orlando where future presidential candidates for 2016 were coming through town. the republican candidates would get a polite respectful welcome except for marco rubio because he was with the gang of 8, he was heckled, there was incredible nger in that audience. it's true the tea party was this organic concern about big government and spending but what's changed since then is demographic change and support for big government if it

benefits members of the tea party, which are generally older white voters, but opposition to government if it helps other people. i think that's been problematic for the moral legitimacy of the philosophy of big government or small government or your activism thereof. >> he referenced the orlando tea party where republican candidates came out and marco rubio didn't get a very friendly hearing. you remember that era, the big knock on him was immigration. that element -- i feel like we're sort of rewriting the tea party as having started out one way and ended another when maybe it was always the same way. >> joy, i really don't -- i really don't think so. i think much of what we're seeing with trump and a lot of stuff that happened in 2012 is the exact opposite of what the tea party started out as, at least from my point of view. when i was getting involved and active and planning rallies, like those -- things like a farm

bailout, a $12 billion farm bailout was exactly the kind of thing we were fighting against. one of the core principles of the movement was free market capitalism. so, you know, all of this opposition to nafta now, i don't understand where it comes from. and even so far as building the wall that everybody seems to enamored of the idea of building a wall on the mexican border. we talk about free market capitalism and the free movement of goods and services across international boundaries. that includes the free movement of labor across international boundaries. almost everything we're talking about is so the opposite of what drew people like me into it. >> very quickly, is there a base for that version of conservativism beyond the three people that are on screen with me right now? because it doesn't seem the base of the republican party believes in any of that. >> well, i think there is a base for it, but, frankly, a lot of

people like us are now democrats. and i think what we need to contemplate is the possibility that we see realignment in the future where maybe the bernie sanders type split off in one direction, the democratic party becomes this kind of free market, free trade party, and the republican party shrinks to a white populist base. something like that could easily happen over the next ten years. >> i mean, it's -- you do see a lot of people who were associated with free market conservative thinking becoming either actual democrats or ind meants. >> and you see it in foreign policy as well. we haven't talked much about that. the republican party used to be the anti-russia party, in favor of human rights, opposed to dictators around the world. that's completely flipped and those very same people -- i'm not talking about the same demographic. i'm talking about the same people now defend donald trump. so, i think -- >> and defend russia. >> defend russia and defend other dictators around the world. so, i think there has been a complete abandonment, in part, because i think it's another discussion, but i think

conservativism ran into a dead end. people like avik roy and myself are trying to spruce it up, reform, bring in new ideas. diplomat happen. and suddenly the base and everybody else went nativist is populist. now you have this big gap. i suspect there's a lot more in common between people on the center right and center left and i think the party that appeals to them, whether it's a new party, whether it's the democratic party, can pick up a lot of ground. i think there's a lot of commonali commonality. >> you should get to know phil. phil's a good guy. appreciate you being here. jennifer ruben, avik roy, good to see you. still to come, we'll take a look ahead to the 2018 midterms. stay with us. ♪ dear foremothers, your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... ...commanded armies... ...yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story.

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make a little bit of a mistake. they analyze every word. they say, did he say that? could it have been? did he say something positive about russia? i think he loves russia. >> the events of this week proved exactly why the russiagate story is a major story. by far, the biggest news is the bombshell report about the infamous june 2016 trump tower meeting. a knowledgeable source tells nbc news that trump's former fixer, michael cohen, is prepared to tell the special counsel that donald trump knew in advance

about the meeting. between his son, donald trump jr., his son-in-law, jared kushner, and paul manafort and kremlin linked lawyer natalie. jennifer ruben is back with me and joining me matthew miller, msnbc justice and security analyst, my yeah rocky moore. thank you for being here. jennifer, you wrote about this this week. what do you think the cohen news means? >> i think it confirms what we expected all along. it would have been inconceivable for donald trump not to have known his son, his son-in-law, campaign manager were all meeting on the floor above his office with a bunch of russians. i think this kind of fills in the blank. there will be other corroborating information when the special prosecutor gets those blocked calls that came from donald trump jr., probably to his father. it will fit a pattern. but i think this reminds us of something else.

we know a fraction of the facts out there. everyone thinks we're close to the end. i don't think we're very near the end. i think we're in the middle. there's a tremendous number of witnesses who have yet to talk to the special prosecutor. those people in turn are going to turn over other people. we saw a new character introduced when michael cohen introduced the name of the cfo of the trump organization. so we have a long way to go. i do think michael cohen is front and center. he's at the intersection of the women, the russians and the money. >> we'll come back to that, because it's true. it's all sort of lumping together. we do know, matt, you have robert mueller now examining donald trump's tweets. that he may become -- his tweets may become a witness in the case as well in this obstruction inquiry. several of the remarks that are being examined came as trump was also privately pressing jeff sessions, attorney general, and jim comey about the investigation and robert mueller is examining whether the actions

add up to attempts to obstruct to tamp down the inquiry. we now have the potential that donald trump's tweets about jeff sessions and jim comey become evidence against him. >> it's right. one thing people say about donald trump oftentimes is nothing matters. in fact, everything matters. and everything he says publicly matters just like he says privately matters. one thing we know about his tweets, they are in some way his most unfiltered, unvarnished thoughts. it's what he says in the white house by himself, before he's gone into the west wing, his most angry times where he says what he wants. not filtered through white house counsel, not filtered through his outside attorneys. it's what he means. i think what you'll see the special prosecutor do is piece them together with his private actions. they'll use the tweets to try to show his motive. why did he fire jim comey? why did he try to push jeff sessions out of the way? why did he try to push rod rosenstein out of the way?

it's because he wants the investigation to go away. >> there's always this question of donald trump's one-way loyalty and to whom it extends when he returns it. you have michael cohen who is now out there on his own. it's very clear he's been cut off by trump world and they are now at loggerheads with each other. jeff sessions who complains all the time. fired jim comey after comey asking for a proffer of loyalty. the question then becomes whether that loyalty extends to his son. donald trump jr., per the associated press, scores of e-mails to natalie as a well-connected attorney who was a ghost writer of top russian lawyers. don junior is now very much caught up in this, implicated by cohen. should we expect an uncharacteristic loyalty to the son, that donald trump may be willing to go out on a limb to

save junior? >> there are questionings if ivanka is still his favorite child? that's still out there. in terms of jodon junior, he ses to be at the center of a number of investigations when it comes to russia. he's been involved in the nra mueller prong of the investigation. we know that he's -- his name has come up with the maria discussion. we know that that meeting at the trump tower, you know, he was right in the middle of it. we also know that he actually put out a statement dictated by his father. we know that he's in the center of this. now, will donald trump's loyalty actually be shared with his son? i think that question remains. it will be fascinating to see. i think the pressure is being brought to bear by, perhaps, ivanka and others in the family might make him feel a certain passion he might not necessarily feel for cohen or other people. >> speaking of cohen, the daily beast describes cohen and trump as dead to each other as the white house prepares to bury michael cohen, who they depict

as a weakling and a traitor. i don't know that going after michael cohen, who's the keeper of your secrets for over a decade, is the smartest strategy. >> we're not necessarily looking at smart strategy coming out of the white house. >> you mean hiring rudy giuliani wasn't a -- >> and all the lawyers around him have quickly run away, even those in the white house, who were supposed to have recuse themselves. very difficult for people in trump orbit to get outside legal counsel because they don't want anything to do with the mueller investigation. everyone on the legal side sees where this is going. it's going to take some time to get there. ongoing, lots to uncover. the fact we've had 18 indictments so far is record speed for any investigation, particularly one that's being run like a racketeering mob case. and in a racketeering mob case, you go for the people near the don. right now they have peeled off the concilliary and going after family members and turning the screws, when is this person

going to crack. >> michael cohen has been involved in everything from reported payoffs of women who say they had affairs with donald trump. he was involved in allegedly being in prague, which he says he was not. mcclatchy had a piece about how he could get into prague another way. michael cohen seems to be involved in everything in trump world. cutting him off, as a layperson, doesn't seem smart. >> we also forget because there are so many facts, we forget the bad facts from a month ago or two months ago. he was involved during the campaign on the moscow/trump tower escapade with felix sadr. >> and involved in the ukraine peace deal? >> yeah. it's hard to think of something donald trump was doing that michael cohen was not involved in. and i think they've made a decision, if you can think of it as a rationale decision, which is he knows so much, we just

have to ruin the guy. we have to make him seem like a complete liar. that's short-sighted thinking because they're going to be corroborating witnesses for what michael cohen is saying. >> and he tapes people. >> right. you won't tape -- he has 100 tapes, we learned. there are other people in these meetings. these people have left a trail of evidence a mile wide. i think their inclination we'll just ruin him comes from their political philosophy, we're just ruin the people attacking us. it doesn't work in the legal realm because there are facts that matter and evidence that matters and there's a whole realm of documentary evidence that will support them. so, yeah, it's student but understand why they do that. they always operate this way. >> it's also -- they're not winning in the court of public opinion anymore either. they expected that that would maybe supercede and prevail, get them through the next election but we're seeing his polling numbers drop among the people who helped him get elected.

there's a very small narrowing, hard base that will be there. millions of more people who are motivated and energized by the shadiness, if nothing else. and then the pocket issues that aren't being discussed. at the end of the day, who is motivated to go and vote? >> on the ruining front -- there's polling that shows he's got a hard and fast base but it's smaller and smaller and smaller. at the same sometime, elected republicans are joining in this idea that you can brings down the reputation of a christopher steele, of a bob robert mueller and rosenstein. there was talk of impeaching him. mark meadows of north carolina has backed off that after leadership intervened. that idea is on the table, of trying to take down rod rosenstein. >> sometimes the obstruction of justice is right out in the open. you see donald trump doing it. he tries to do it on twitter. that's what house republicans have been trying to do. they are looking for any way

they can to shut down the investigation. if they can't shut down the investigation, they want to discredit it because they realized this isn't as likely with respect to donald trump to end up in front of a jury, as long as he's president. i think that had mueller and rosenstein will respect the long-standing doj president. if it ends up of criminality on behalf of donald trump, it will wind up in the house and senate impeachment proceedings and that's a political case where the opinion of the american people matter. his base may be smaller but strong. they're talking to this narrow audience saying, you can't believe these people. it doesn't matter if they have to burn the justice department down to convince people and have affects on law enforcement's ability to do its job not just in this one, but in terrorism cases because people won't trust the fbi, they won't want to cooperate the fbi, they don't care about any of those consequences because they want to protect the president at any cost. >> it's extraordinary to see the republican party turn on the major law enforcement agency like the fbi in the way they

have. i want to talk a little about the democrats as well. maybe they don't have the bully pulpit, they don't have the mega phone, they don't have the majority. donald trump won't be impeached as long as they're in power but republicans have been reticent to put on the table if they were in power, if found guilty of crimes by mueller, he would be impeached. democrats don't seem to want to go there. >> they seem to be sensitive to this credit teak they don't have a positive agenda for the country. they've been spending a lot of time and spinning wheels trying to come up with slogans and things to talk about their issue agenda. >> what is -- it was better deal, better ingredients, i think, is one? >> it went away really quick. >> for the people. >> for the people. i think is the latest one. unfortunately -- yes, unfortunately, you know, health care still matters. economics still matter. what they're doing to food stamps and everything else still matters. at the same time, the integrity of our democracy is increasingly

at the center, i think, of the nation's attention. and to not -- and to not focus on this in a real way in terms of how it's undercutting our electoral system, how it's undercutting our democracy, how it's undercutting our states in terms of the integrity of the vote in our states is a really, i think, important and egregious oversight. i'm of the breed of democrats who believe that we should put it up front and center because nobody will have, i think, a better argument to make than democrats in the fall about why we actually need to have a working branch of congress that actually serves as a real check on the presidency as opposed to what we have now, which are republican congressmen which are cl colluding with the republican president who has certainly some very questionable, you know, intentions. >> it would be ironic to see the democratic party to be the party that has to come out and defend the fbi, right? it was traditionally republicans would try to own that whole law enforcement space. it is now just open for anyone

who cares to step into it. >> there's only one party left that's a rule of law party. it's crazy. rule of law has been a settled position where both parties settled the rule of law. that's not true anymore. i think with respect to what democrats -- they have to run on being a check on an executive branch that's out of control. i -- i'm one of the people that thinks it would be a mistake to run into impeachment. this investigation is not over. let's see the facts bob mueller comes with. >> the rational democratic party up against -- i don't know what you call it. thank you all very much. up next, the potential 2020 democratic contender comes out swinging. (vo) i was born during the winter of '77. i first met james in 5th grade. we got married after college.

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a government that works for people that get out every day and try to build something for themselves and for their families. >> but even before 2020, is 2018 -- is 2018. so, more on the democratic contenders gearing up for a potential blue wave after the break. what?! -welcome. -[ gasps ] a bigger room?! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. what?! an unexpected ending! is if my mom were here. let someone else do the heavy lifting. tripadvisor compares prices from over 200 booking sites to find the right hotel for you at the lowest price. so you barely have to lift a finger. or a wing.

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where did they come from? remember that, where did they come from? now they know but they're not going to the democrats who are going so far left that nobody can believe it. >> well, recent polls show voters actually may be rallying around the democrats. particularly in midwestern states. a hopeful sign for dems that the so-called blue wave could actually happen this november. joining me is tiffany ross, jason johnson, politics editor at the root. i have -- i'm going right in the middle. you're at a disadvantage, one man on the panel. we have to talk about stacy abrams, now that we know who her opponent is going to be, i probably get this question, is she going to win? >> i'm going to get in trouble. >> keep it real. >> it is possible, it is mathematically possible for stacy abrams to win in georgia. is it likely? we don't know. look, kemp has made it his personal quest over the last five years to do everything he

can to suppress the vote in that state. he sued the new georgia projects, allowed voter data to magically disappear, he's gotten rid of early voting. he changed the landscape to make it as difficult -- you talk about the blue wave. they're going up against a mountain in that particular state. and it's a red state. but if there was a candidate stacy abrams could beat, it's kemp. because his nasty, despicable behavior and the very thing he's doing to make georgia more red are what offend people. i think it's going to be a lot more competitive than i thought six months ago. >> you're smiling. >> because jason and i talked about this. >> are you talking about -- bring them out. bring them out. >> i actually think abrams can dw definitely win. she talked about her biggest problem is she needs to convince people that victory is possible. kemp sued her. he's had people arrested,

interrogated. >> he was the attorney general. >> secretary of state and attorney general. >> sorry. >> i do think she has an uphill battle but i think she has been bold enough to run an authentic campaign as authentic as herself. there are plenty of people in georgia looking for a candidate like her. if people get it in their head that victory is possible and come out and vote, she can certainly win. i would say winning is probable. >> i think it's such an exciting -- this is one of the most exciting matches also to watch because you want to know, obviously, kemp is going to be playing so dirty. he'll pull the race card, the gender card. it seems like that's been working for the republicans because it's a consistent message that goes along with, you know, what donald trump is also spewing. but i feel like if anybody -- if anybody can take kemp down, it's going to be stacey abrams. >> georgia has more african-americans by percentage than alabama. if alabama is a winnable state by a democrat, i think it's -- mathematically it should be a

winnable state. it's the white whale of the democratic party. another state where there's heavy voter suppression which was sued over that voter suppression behavior but also demographically should be win by democrats is texas. let's play a little awe new ad. here is this ad. >> the only way for me to be able to deliver for the people of texas is to show up in every single community and every county. to drive to all 254 counties. >> we've been in houston, we've been in dallas, we've been in austin, we've been in georgetown. w again here in amarillo. >> real human beings making this happen. >> regardless of background or geography, i serve only you. that's the beauty of this campaign right now. no pacs, just people. >> i'll start with you, the polling is showing cruz at 41%,

o'rourke at 36% that's in june. ted cruz certainly wants to debate beto five times. that's a sign he's worried. >> i agree. ted cruz is worried and i think he he should be. beto's climb is a little more than abrams. texas is a different animal. greg abbott enjoys huge support from the people. he's faced a few lawsuits himself. he has a latino wife who comes out and campaigns when necessary. ted cruz is latino himself. a lot of people think people of color in one block but there's a lot of conservative latinos in texas who want strong borders and fall for these identity politics. if you look at the contrast between ted cruz's ad and beto's ad -- ted cruz's ad tapped into that dog whistle and feeds on

the xenophobe yeze xenophobe ye. >> it surprises me that works. in a state that is so dependent for its economic growth on mexico. if you go down -- if you go closest to the border, the relationship is fluid and positive. it surprises me this is a state where those dog whistles work rather than repel voters. >> i completely agree with you. i don't understand how it works. it's like a denial. also with everything going on with the child detentions and the forced family separations. i mean, now it's becoming -- i still don't understand how this can remain an issue of race. it has to be a human rights issue. i'm surprised you can play those dog whistles and people fall for it. >> i want to make sure we get wisconsin in because you have another interesting race, tony evers polling at 54%, scott walker at 51%. he was re-elected and people were surprised but he did get back in. what has changed? >> scott's in trouble because the president is unpopular. that's the biggest thing. i've always said this.

donald trump can -- he can -- he remains popular but it's a millstone around the neck of other republicans in this country. he has no coat tails. that's been dragging scott walker down. all of these tariffs -- canada has been specifically targeting wisconsin and pennsylvania in their tariffs. they are hitting wisconsin where it hurts. scott walker has been trying to judge you have it and a lot of voters in that state are unhappy. third time's a charm. scott walker gets knocked out. earlier this week i literally had a conversation with one of ted cruz's pollsters. we're not going to debate. their internal polls must indicate they're in danger. >> they moved the house as a tilt toward the democrats, 17 ratings have been changed in favor of the democrats. it's supposed to be a bad year for them, at least on the senate side. ten senators up in states trump won. what does the picture look like for 2018, can they flip the house or the senate? >> i definitely think the house is at play.

i think the senate is going to be a little more challenging. i think it's -- i just don't know any, you know, well-funded democrats out there who are, you know, putting republicans in danger, to be quite honest. but the house, i definitely think is going to be a huge part. i just want to piggyback quickly on what jason said about wisconsin, about the location. i think wisconsin, part of it is locations, location, location, but i think in the race it's also education, education, education. and you've had a lot of public educators come out and campaign and be on the front lines in that race because he completely attacked the public education system there when he decimated their collective bargaining rights. he was strategic because he excluded the police and firefighters, state trooper unions because they vote for conservati conservative. >> we're going to keep going. we're going to keep the panel around. i have to talk about florida. the latest on michael cohen's new claims that his former boss knew about that trump tower meeting before it happened. first, more "am joy" after the break. ♪

okay. my panel is back with me. we're going to try to go to

jason, to stephen stacey abrams second. we were talking about georgia democrats it's so hard to win. >> part of it is about suppression and you've got atlanta and most of the state, savannah. you didn't have high voter registration in atlanta. people cared about the mayor. this year, they've got hundreds of thousand of people involved and motivated with kent being this aggressive guy who runs around saying i'm going to get rid of mexicans in the state and putting guns into 16 year olds, it's going to be difficult but if there's a candidate in a year, this will be that year. >> and i feel like alabama changed the game. the idea that black women are supermotivated right now because they smell victory. they've done it. >> it's so interesting, i look that the. to save the country, it's got a countdown. and a lot of interesting things

that black women aren't entitled or obligated to save us. they saved themselves. they didn't want that child molester banned from malls, whatnot, to be in their local government. >> when you're banned from hot topics, i generally think that's going to be it. >> let's talk about florida. i'm perplexed by florida as well. you have three, really four, jeff green also running for the democratic governor. and the african-american candidate. gwen graham the daughter of bob graham. the former mayor of miami beach all in contention. it's a topsy-turvy race. it now appears that graham and levine on the top there. >> and a happy mayor a lum night of florida university just this week a federal judge ruled prohibiting early voting sites on campuses and universities are discriminatory. i thought this would be great,

because andrew graduated there. and i thought this might shift with the colleges and young voters down there. we'll see what happens. i'm is not ready. i'm holding out hope. >> is florida another georgia? a territory that's winnable in theory, demographically but not necessarily for democrats for some weird reason? >> the other thing that's happening, while you have a functional democratic party in florida, they're not as functional -- they don't have the kind of structure on the ground for a state that remains as competitive in some of the local races as they do. and that's part of the issue. i found it whether you're looking at georgia, alabama or ohio. there's a lot of states where the democratic party in recent years are saying, man, we can't really pull this off. and they don't have the kind of money or focus behind the candidate. >> yeah. >> maybe this will change once the primary is over, gilliam or whoever, i don't see the structure down there to make a

statewide push. >> the year of the woman, gwen graham, can she pull it out? >> i hope so. dem, we cannot afford to lose. >> levine tried to tell them. jason johnson, anushay hossein, tiffany cross, thank you very much. you can check out my interview with shirley sherrod. you do not want to miss it. you'll hear what she has to say about trump's farm fallout and the gooding gg governeorgia gov. more "am joy" after the break. best price . giddyup! kayak. search one and done.

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that is our show today. "am joy" will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, alex witt, has the latest. >> what are you doing down there? when are you going to high-tail it up here? >> i may have went to a concert. thank you so much. a good day to you all, i'm alex witt right here at msnbc headquarters where joy is not. apparently, she'll be back tomorrow. trump tower meeting both sides now digging in over what the president knew and when he knew it. >> he's been lying all week. i mean -- he's been lying for years. >> why some of the president's closest allies are now turning their sights on michael cohen after praising him just weeks earlier. plus, the trouble with twitter. de