9:00 p.m. eastern, you can see what happens. plus we have a lot more news kicking off what's been a very busy week thus far. so i wanted to let you know about that tonight. 9:00 p.m. eastern. but don't go anywhere because "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. fallback. let's play "hardball." catch this. president trump's lawyer today shifted his defense. instead of denying his client, that would be the president, advanced putin's criminal conspiracies, now saying it wasn't a crime. there's one big explanation in this change in strategy. unable to defend his client, the president, against the accusation he falls back on the argument it wasn't illegal. try telling that to the american people. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington right across the potomac river from where trump campaign manager paul manafort tomorrow goes on trial. the big news tonight, however,

comes from giuliani, who attempted to downplay the criminal aspect of collusion with the russians. rather than deny that collusion took place, he now today argued that collusion isn't illegal. let's watch. >> i've been sitting here looking in the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime. >> it's not. >> collusion is not a crime. >> i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. you start analyzing the crime. the hacking is the crime. the hacking -- >> that certainly is the original -- >> the president didn't hack. >> of course not. that's -- >> he didn't pay them for hacking. >> it's so much fun. an apparent shift in strategy. giuliani now appears to be saying that collusion is not so bad after all. you saw him there chuckling about it. and also 150e78d to undermined the credibility, however, of president trump's frequent and categorical denials that there was no collusion. which has been a familiar refrain from this president. let's watch him. >> let's put it this way. there is absolutely no collusion. that has been proven. >> look, there's been no collusion. >> zero collusion. >> there's no collusion.

no collusion. >> no collusion. >> no collusion. >> just so you understand it, there's been no collusion. there's been no crime. >> there was absolutely no collusion. everybody knows it. >> no collusion. no nothing. >> no collusion. >> i say it all the time. there was no collusion. >> so what just happened? in an attempt to clean up his remarks giuliani went on fox news to say he was merely making a lawyer's argument. let's watch this. >> so what i said today, that there was no collusion, and therefore -- and that collusion also is no crime, i've been saying that from the very beginning. so did john dowd. it's a very, very familiar lawyer's argument, that the alternative, my client didn't do it, and even if he did it it's not a crime. and i have said that over and over again. collusion is not a crime. the only crime here is hacking. and it is ridiculous to think that the president hacked. >> well, see if you can follow that. giuliani's argument, however-s a matter of semantics. whatever word you use to describe it, if the president

advanced russia's criminal cyberattack on the united states, they could be considered co-conspirators as agents of the kremlin. and conspiracy, by the way, mr. president and your lawyer, is a crime. separately, in a bizarre twist, giuliani also broke some news today. he said he heard from three reporters that miking cohen is alleging that top-level campaign staff met to discuss russian help before the infamous meeting at trump tower, before. two meetings. yet at the same time giuliani revealed the news of an alleged second meeting. he simultaneously denied that it ever took place. >> there was another meeting that has been leaked but hasn't been public yet. >> okay. >> that was a meeting, an alleged meeting, three days before. according to cohen, he says there was a meeting with donald jr., with jared kushner, with paul manafort, with gates, and possibly two others in which they out of the presence of the

president discussed a meeting with the russians. we checked with their lawyers, the ones we could check with, for four of the six. that meeting never, ever took place. it didn't happen. it's a figment of his imagination or he's lying. >> joining me right now is democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. yammish alcindor is correspondent for pbs news-hour. robert costa national political reporter for the "washington post." and brett stevens, columnist for the "washington post." thank you. what just happened? they went from didn't collude with the russians, they didn't participate in this conspiracy to disrupt and discredit our electoral process, although if they did it it's no problem. what happened? is it the accumulation of that michael cohen story that's getting out that they're going to be caught so, they might as well deny the guilt of the crime because they can't deny the crime? >> hard to know what they're doing because from all appearances rudy giuliani is implicating his client in a web of criminality. by the way, it's more than just semantics.

this country was attacked, as you saw from the indictment of 12 russian operatives and spies who were ordered by president putin to do -- >> they've been indicted for felonies, and this president has helped them do it. at least they're now saying, well, we don't deny that we did it. >> and the definition of conspiracy, and i've given this instruction to a jury, so have judges, is that there are spokes on a wheel. you don't have to be at the center. all you need to do is be one of those spokes. you don't need to know all the conspiracy or agree to all of it oregon even know all of it, but you can be part of it if you just participate in some of it. that's what rudy giuliani is saying donald trump did. and we're talking about fundamentally an attack on america that rudy giuliani seems very dismissive about taking seriously. and the only interpretation, the only strategy i can see is that he's trying to strengthen the base, reassure them, and make

light of it. >> what he seems to be saying is yeah, we may have agreed to talk turkey, we may have agreed to talk dirt on hillary, we may have been helping them generally, but we didn't have anything to do with the hacking. what kind of defense is that? >> that is a very slim to none defense. that is the kind of defense that would be laughed out of a courtroom. i just want to add one more point. all this talk about a second meeting is truly damning because if you take donald trump jr.'s testimony before the judiciary committee essentially, this contradicts him. it could lead him to be in danger of perjury. and clearly he has failed to be truthful. ? let's go back to -- there's two news stories here. one is the second meeting that only adds the deliberative quality of the meeting in the second place. let's talk about whether we should meet with the russians to get some dirt, oh, let's do it. that seems more deliberative. let me go to this other

question. why is rudy shifting from we didn't do it but if we did it so what? we didn't mean to collude but if we did so what? >> rudy giuliani is running a shifting offense against robert mueller. >> shifty as well. >> shifting. because he wants to get out in front of whatever robert mueller has to say about the president. he wants to make shoe that when the report comes out that everyone doesn't just reed read the report they look at robert mueller and his team and say those are those angry people who didn't like the president. and now he's saying, well, even if we did do this crime we really shouldn't -- or did this thing that you say is a crime, it's actually not something that's happening, i think he's shifting because he may be worried about this, may be worried about whether or not there might be some sort of evidence against the president. but really it's about the fact that he wants to be out in the media yelling at people and making sure that the trump campaign is out front on this and attacking people because he's worried the president might get attacked later on. >> let me ask you, robert, as a jushlt. it seems to me there's two ways to look at rudy. either he's doing pre-emptive war here, we're going to get worse news like this, that there

was a meeting they learned about, it there was a meeting, an attempt to get dirt, it's going to come out thanks to michael cohen, or this idea of rolling disclosure, which is only admit what's been put in evidence. so last week we ended the week with news that michael cohen's going to put out the word that the president knew about the meeting at trump tower. so since that's probably going to happen why don't we just say yes, it did happen and say but that's not illegal. >> giuliani -- >> rolling disclosure, pre-emptive war. what is it? >> more preventive war based on my reporting. giuliani is reacting to the news but he's also being defiant, denying these kinds of meetings happened while also leaving room in a lot of his answers for different things to come along the way in the course of this legal and political story. and so you see giuliani really out there on an island legally and politically with the president trying to be defensive, trying to be the lead lawyer, going on all the shows as the spokesman. but even giuliani, who has access to some of the evidence, he only knows so much about what's going to come. >> let me get to brett on this. you're with the times now. i think you're sort of a neocon

but you don't like trump so we can agree on that. so let's move on. i don't forget but i do forgive. so let's move on. what do you think the business community, which i don't really know that well, they love the fact that they're getting relief on what i think is important regulation on environment, things like that. they love their tax cuts. it's like they close their eyes to the sleaze. can they close their eyes as republicans, most of them are republicans, to the idea of dealing with the enemy? with dealing with putin. will they close their eyes to this horror of collaboration car, hoots, whatever you want to call it, with the russians screwing with the electoral process to discredit us. will they forgive that as long as they're fat and happy? >> one of my great disappointments as a former republican is just realizing just how transactional the politics of many other republicans really are. particularly the business community. look, we just had economic numbers.

4.1%. you can kvell and quibble with them or say good times aren't going to last but the business community loves that. one prominent new york financier i had lunch with not too long ago said look, you know, when i turn the sound off on trump i like what i'm seeing. he means cuts to the corporate tax rate, less regulation, and so on. you just have to close your eyes to the fact that you have a president who is simply corroding every institution that has made america great over the last 70 years, from our international relationships to our political institutions and civic morals. that's the problem that the business community is loath to deal with with a few very honorable exceptions. >> they seem to have a quarterly conscience. in another effort to downplay the criminal implications of collusion some of trump's defenders in congress now are trying to shrug off the news that the president may have known about that trump tower meeting in advance. here's republican congressman darrell issa of california on saturday. >> if he's proven to have not

told the whole truth about the fact that campaigns look for dirt and if someone offers it you listen to them, nobody's going to be surprised. there are some things in politics that you just take for granted. >> unbelievable standards. anyway, likewise, u.s. congressman dana rohrabacher of california told "mother jones "there's not a person in this town that would not take a meeting to get material like that," in other words work take the -- senator, stand up for this form of government we have, that anybody would go out there and go to the russians and take whatever crap they're handing out against their opponent because, what the end justifies the means? i don't know. by the way, these two are not the most perfect representatives of our democracy, i don't think. >> well, i do think that what they reflect is a concerted, consistent coordinated effort to undermine mueller, to discredit him, to demean the seriousness of the offense against democracy that the russians committed.

they attacked our democracy. and the only apparently person in public office is donald trump denying that it's an attack that should be met strongly and fiercely. and this kind of effort to discredit the special prosecutor is an anticipatory effort to in effect avoid the consequences -- >> when the report comes out. i want to do like an anthem around here and i want to remind any republicans watching right now who still think their tax cuts and their deregulation justify this stuff. if barack obama had done anything like this, if he'd been caught dealing with the russians, dealing to get dirt on his opponent in that case, doing this against john mccain, they'd have strung him up. if not physically, they would have done it morally. they would have said this guy's the worst thing that ever happened to this country. their standards are zilch right now. >> i think that politically donald trump has got anne way with a lot of things that of course i think people argue president obama wouldn't have gotten away with.

but i also think some people argue that other republicans wouldn't have gotten away with. all the 16 other people he beat out to get this spot, i don't know if they would have got anne way with taking meetings with russia with all these kinds of connections -- >> so how's he get a dispensation? >> i mean, as a reporter i've talked to his supporters, i've done so much research, and i think there are people that kind of just justify it because they have the thing that they're voting for. either you can look at the 4% growth or you can look at abortion and say i can support him because of that or i can support him because i don't -- i really didn't like hillary clinton and that's what i'm going to do. i think when you see these republicans going out there they're saying, oh, well, we all want opposition research but they're not saying we want opposition research from a foreign country, which is what the -- which is what our laws in the united states say are not possible and that you can't do that. >> robert, you're great at this. tell me about the role between rudy and the president. he has really stirred it up. he has stirred it so much it's hard to keep track of it. he's really good at messing up your mind. you think you got him on collusion, then he turns around over the weekend and says, well, i'm not going to play that

defense anymore, all right collusion but it's not anything illegal about it, can't find it in the code. his ability to slip and slide on this thing, do they work together on the phone, this tag team, or is it just rudy freelancing it out there? >> every time i call mayor giuliani, i say when was the last time you spoke to president trump? he usually says just a couple hours ago. think about president trump in that dining room just off the oval office with the flat-screen tv watching it all day, thinking about cable news, digesting it, tweeting, and then he has rudy giuliani, a generational peer, across town appearing in almost every green room in new york or down in washington. they are a pair unlike any other pair in this trump orbit, who think through things in a gut sense, in a raw political sense, and they're waging this war without much advice from others. it's really giuliani, the president together. >> pretty frightening. thank you, senator richard blumenthal as always. yam yeesh alcindor and bret stephens. the paul manafort trial about to

begin tomorrow a couple miles across the potomac. what could it mean for robert mueller's investigation on trump? lots of years facing this guy manafort for hooking up with trump. plus trump and the publisher of the "new york times" give each other an earful about fake news and a private meeting. it's not so private. is the president putting journalists' lives at risk? you've got twornd about that. also the "hardball" round table tonight. trump doubles down about his border wall. he's willing to shut down the government he says over the wall sxap little fun tonight. sacha baron cohen claims another victim, roy moore. wait till you catch this. he punks him. it's amazing. he gets away with it. finally, let me finish tonight with trump watch. this is "hardball," where the action is. ps the smart ones look to fidelity to find them. we give you research and data-visualization tools to help identify potential opportunities. so, you can do it this way... or get everything you need to help capture investment ideas and make smarter trading decisions with fidelity for just $4.95 per online u.s. equity trade.

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italian prime minister at the white house today. he was asked about sitting down with the president of iran to talk about easing tensions. let's listen to that. >> i do believe that they will probably end up wanting to meet, and i'm ready to meet anytime they want to. and i don't that from strength or from weakness. i think it's an appropriate thing to do. if we could work something out that's meaningful, not the waste of paper that the other deal was, i would certainly be willing to meet. >> do you have preconditions for that meeting? >> no preconditions. no. they want to meet i'll meet. anytime. >> no preconditions. but remember the heat that then candidate barack obama took after saying he'd meet with leaders of enemy nations with no preconditions? that was back in 2008. well, today all we're hearing from the right a now familiar deafening silence. whatever trump does is fine with them. as long as they get their tax cuts and their regulations removed on the environment. we'll be right back. to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better

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welcome back to "hardball." as president trump continues his attacks on the legitimacy of the special counsel's investigation into russian meddling, jury selection for the first big trial stemming from the investigation gets under way tomorrow. paul manafort, former chairman

of donald trump's presidential campaign, there he is, faces 18 charges stemming from his work beginning in 2006 for the former president of ukraine, a putin ally. manafort made tens of millions of dollars through his work. but in 2014 his client viktor yanukovych was ousted from office in a popular uprising in ukraine. in order to keep up with his lavish lifestyle, however, manafort's accused of resorting to bank and tax fraud. those activities continued during his time working on the trump campaign. the charges brought against manafort include -- there they are. five counts of tax fraud, four counts of failing to report foreign bank accounts, four counts of bank fraud and five counts of conspiring to commit bank fraud. should manafort be found guilty he could face up to ten years in prison. manafort is also facing similar charges in federal court in washington, d.c., which he'll have to face later. here to help us break it down are cynthia oxney, a former federal prosecutor and ken dilanian, nbc news national political reporter. what are we going to learn watching this? because manafort was at that

infamous meeting at trump tower. will that come up? what are we going learn about trump in this trial? >> sadly not very much. one of the prosecutors even said the word russia won't come up sxlp ukraine will come up. >> ukraine will come up. but it's not clear they're even going to talk about his work for donald trump. this is a fascinating stoirl on a lot of levels. this guy's been a fixture in american politics since the 1970s and it's kind of a shakespearean tragedy because the justice department investigated him years ago. took a pass, didn't pursue this case. the only reason he's wearing green jumpsuits today is because he went to work for donald trump. but we're not going to learn i think -- >> that would be a message to people that are facing trial, you're not going to win on trump's side, cynthia, because trump is bad news. >> trump is bad news. and he's -- >> he's not generous. he hasn't pardoned anybody yet connected with him. >> no. you know, one of the big questions is why hasn't the guy pled and some people think he's holding out for a pardon. there's no reason for trump to pardon him. it doesn't do anything for trump. because that's the way pardons seem to work.

i'm kind of wondering if the -- if mueller's office just didn't even offer him very much. they basically said you don't do anything for us. we have gates, we have -- >> working with trump when they were talking about russia. he didn't overhear anything? that's kind of hard to believe. >> it's not -- i'm sure he did but they have it from gates. and plus what's going to happen here is he's going to get convict in a long and boring trial with the exception for about two days, he's going to get convicted and then the sentencing process is going to come up. and he's going to have to be -- do some cooperation in order to get a better sentence. so they're still going to have a second bite at that apple. and he's got another trial in september -- >> he's in his late 60s, right? >> he's going to be in jail the rest of his life. >> well, prison's not too good to you while you're in there. you don't live that long inside. >> no. and i think it's a life sentence if he's convicted in both of these trials -- >> why doesn't he just get on the phone call trump, ask for the white house number, say can i talk to the president, i'm not saying another word if you'll

pardon me? >> he's under an indictment for witness tampering. >> he doesn't have his phone anymore. but he also has another trial in september. and if anything comes of the conspiracy to violate campaign finance, which i predict will come after the election, he's going to have a third, or actually a fourth indictment. there's nothing in this guy's future except going to trial and getting convicted. >> what's it going to look like to the american people if trump skates, as we say, he doesn't get indicted, he can't get kicked out of office because there's too many republican senators, so he skates on impeachment and conviction but he's still in office. but two years from now there's a whole line-up of people going to prison because of him. how's that going to look to the voter? >> to the independent voter not very good. but you're right. it becomes a political question, not a legal question. how much a stench can they stomach in their president? there's no taping system that we know of. and richard nixon didn't have fox news. donald trump's got an amen corner saying that black is white and don't believe what you're seeing. but what about --

>> cohen's got a taping system. >> there you go. >> what about the family members? i always think when i try to think of this over the weekend when i'm alone with my wife and i'm thinking, the time when it comes to the reckoning is when trump has to choose between family and freedom or staying in office. wouldn't he pardon his son-in-law he likes okay, his daughter who he obviously loves? wouldn't he pardon them? they've got to be on this chopping list of robert mueller. they're on the chopping list clearly. >> he could pardon them, but that could be an impeachment count for obstruction. i don't see it -- i was talking with another very experienced lawyer today, and we chatted for a while about it. i don't see it coming in little pieces like just indicting jon jr. or just indicting kushner. it's going to be global. it's going to be a bombshell. and it's going to come after the election. and it will include everybody. >> rico charge, running a criminal conspiracy? >> i don't know if it will be rooko but it will be 371. >> president trump and his

allies have attempted to downplay paul manafort's role in the 2016 campaign. here it goes. >> i tell you, i feel a little badly about it. they went back 123 years to get things he did 12 years ago. paul manafort worked for me for a very short period of time. he worked for me, what, 49 days or something. a very short period of time. >> we had a little hiccup with this guy manafort who we can find him, we know where he is, he's right down the road now, not hard to find right now. >> rbt they nice to their people? in reality paul manafort worked for the campaign for five months. he managed tell delegates at the republican national convention where trump won. he then became campaign manager, ken, my friend. these guys are not nice to the people. >> they are not. he played a significant role. he was on the sunday shows. he was speaking for the campaign. and we were reporting at the time, chris, hey, this guy's got some interesting deals with russian oligarchs. and the campaign just didn't listen until they were confronted with hey, this guy's in real trouble. >> is it reasonable to assume that trump sought to took advantage of all this knowledge of the internal workings of putin's operation when his

campaign manager's sitting next to him? >> yeah. and it's also reasonable -- >> of course it's reasonable. >> that's why i think he's got something to give to the prosecutor. paul manafort -- to robert mueller. didn't you ever hear him talking about how putin operates, how he deals with ukraine and what he really wants? he wants ukraine in some form. squle definitely has something to give. but the prosecutor doesn't have to give him very much to get it. right? because the prosecutor has him dead to rights, a. and b, he has gates. >> gates is the kedeputy. let me ask you a cosmic question. a global question. this guy goes away for 20 years or 15 years, whatever. does that kill the idea this is a witch hunt, he gets himself a witch? >> i think so. i mean, for reasonable people. there are some people who are never going get off that witch hunt thing. if you convict the campaign manager, the campaign chairman, send him away for 20 years, how is this a witch hunt? >> good question. that was a rhetorical question. thank you, cynthia alksne, expert on prosecutions like this. ken dilanian, expert on this wholeness.

up next the publisher of the "new york times" takes the president, this president to task for his relentless attacks on the media. you know, enemy of the people. does anybody think this means trump will stop describing journalists as the enemy of the people? this is "hardball," where the action is. hopes you drive safely. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands?

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overall #1 rated, weathers it all. find our most advanced formula exclusively at the home depot. welcome back to "hardball." over the weekend president trump tweeted that he had a very good and interesting meeting at the white house with a.g. sulzberger, publisher of the

"new york times." "spent much time talking about the vast amounts of fake news being put out by the media and how that fake news has morphed o into the phrase enemy of the people. sad." "the new york times" confirmed the previously off the record meeting and explained it was held at the white house aat the request of the white house. however, according to sulzberg the purpose of the meeting was to raise concerns in his words about the president's deeply troubling anti-press rhetoric. that it's not just divisive but increasingly dangerous. that's his word. he also told the president while the phrase "fake news" is untrue and harmful that he was much more concerned about trump labeling journalists the enemy of the people. the president didn't seem to like that and tweeted this defense. "when the media reveals internal deliberations of our government, it puts the lives of many, not just journalists, at risk. very unpatriotic. freedom of the press also comes with responsibility to report the news." that's trump talking. president trump proudly professed he invented the term fake news to go after reporting he didn't like. >> as you know, i have a running

war with the media. they are among the most dishonest human beings on earth. >> a few days ago i called the fake news the enemy of the people. and they are. they are the enemy of the people. >> you know, you read the fake news. it's fake and disgraceful. >> just stick with us. don't believe the crap you see from these people. the fake news. >> and just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening. >> according to the committee to protect journalists, 34 journalists have been killed around the world in 2018 alone. and for more i'm joined by jonathan capehart, opinion writer at the "washington post" and also a holder of the pulitzer prize, which i've just discovered you hold, that great majesty. >> seriously? >> no, i don't know everything. because you don't brag on it. some people around here always do. but you did win it back in '99. let me ask you about this. nixon, when he was president, went out and said manson was guilty and it was a big problem. this guy goes around saying innocent people, completely innocent journalists, republican

miz of t are enemies of the people. you've got to wonder if that's going to cause a problem with somebody with a gun or somebody just a dangerous person is going to take that literally and say i'm killing the enemy of the people. it's not outrageous someone would do that in this 330 million people country. >> remember what happened during the comet pizza situation where there was this -- >> cathy and i were there last week. it's this harmless little pizza place. >> little pizza place that's very popular with families. not too far from the -- >> it's the kind of place where families of seven people or so gather around a long table and drink coke and have pizzas. >> right. and there was this rumor out there that hillary clinton was running a child sex ring out of this -- out of this restaurant. and some man drove hundreds of miles to go check it out for himself. >> with his gun. and then he shot into the roof, didn't he? >> yes, he did. and so now what we have is the president of the united states saying that journalists doing their jobs, doing their job are

the enemy of the people. one thing i want viewers to understand if they don't already know it is there is only one profession that is protected in the constitution of the united states and that's journalism because the framers, the founders realized, or thought it important that a free and unfettered press would be a check on the power of government. so while we know about the checks and balances between the legislative, executive and judicial, the people through the press -- >> jefferson's idea, by the way. >> right. were able to keep their eyes on what the government is doing in their name. and you've got the president of the united states, who is sworn to uphold and protect the constitution, saying that the people who are protected in the constitution are the enemy of the people. >> fake news is bad enough. that was just rhetoric. i do agree that enemy of the people, some people are going to take that literal. anyway, authoritarian regimes as we know around the world have picked up on trump's attacks against the media. in venezuela president nicolas

maduro told rt, that's the russian television network, that his country was being bullied by the world media spreading lots of lies, calling them fake news. the phrase of this president. and syrian president bashar al assad denied reports that he ordered the torture of prison inmates. here's what he told yahoo news when he was asked about it. >> we're living in a fake news era, as you know pf everybody know this. >> isn't it nice these dictators are being scripted by our president? >> right. there was a time, chris, when the president of the united states was the one who was not on the leader of the free world and president of the united states but the defender of freedom -- >> of liberal values. >> liberal world order. and now they're taking, these dictators are taking their cues from the president of the united states to them. that means that there are no breaks -- >> but let me ask you, is he hitting a fly with a hammer? it doesn't carry him that far, the evil he's doing here. he can say fake news and make the same point. going to the point of enemy of the people i'm not sure he gets

any votes out of that. i think it's awful. it's not just the ends don't justify the means. i don't think there are any real ends. does he get any votes out of this? >> i don't know if he gets votes. >> people may believe it but -- >> chris, when he says these things, it's usually at a rally. it's usually when there's a big crowd, and when the president feels -- probably when the energy is flagging in the room, when he needs an applause line, he has his go-to phrases. and fake news, enemy of the people, attacks on journalists, that's easy applause matter for him. >> i think people get up in the morning, read the paper and they believe most of it and that's what the right thing is to do. i don't think they think it's the enemy of the people. >> from your lips. >> when they want to know who won the game last night, they want to know what the weather is tomorrow, some basics of what's happening in their lives, and they do trust us. that's just a fact. how else would they get information? they don't hear it across the back yard fence. they heard it from us. i love it when they heard it from us and then they attack us. anyway, thank you, jonathan capehart, pulitzer prize-winning author. up next, trump says he would have no problem with a government shutdown if it means he gets to build his wall.

it's back to the wall. better to talk about the wall than the separated kids, don't you think? he knows what he's doing. change the subject to the wall again. but the republican leaders think about that idea while their party fights to keep control of congress. can you shut down the government and still ask to run it? you're watching "hardball." oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (vo) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? (vo) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? (vo) a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. oh! no increased risk? ♪ ozempic®! ♪ ozempic® should not be the first medicine for treating diabetes, or for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. do not share needles or pens. don't reuse needles. do not take ozempic® if you have a personal or family history

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the community wildfire safety program and how you can help keep your home and community safe, visit pge.com/wildfiresafety if we don't get border security, after many, many years of talk within the united states, i would have no problem doing a shutdown. it's time we had proper border security. we're the laughingstock of the world. we have the worst immigration laws anywhere in the world. we have to change our laws. we do that through congress. so i would certainly be willing to close it down to get it done. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump earlier today doubling down on his

threat he made over the weekend to shut down the government over his wall. some republicans pushed back on the president's threat. here was senator ron johnson of wisconsin. let's watch him. >> i certainly don't like playing shutdown politics. >> and how damaging would that be for republicans ahead of the november races? >> i don't think it would be helpful. so let's try and avoid it. >> well, democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut tweeted yesterday, "pro tip on who's responsible if the government shuts down this fall. republicans control the house, republicans control the senate, and the republican president just told you he wants to shut down the government in the fall." let's bring in tonight's "hardball" round table. elena schneider is a campaign reporter for politico. cornel belcher's a democratic strategist. and john braybender is for balance a republican strategist. thank you. so let's start with somebody who's in the middle here, an objective person. it is odd to my ears and everybody i work with, our producers today, how we've gotten used to something bizarre. the chief executive, the one

responsible for making the government work, talking so charitiably about shutting down the government. like that's a sort of fun thing to do. he used to feel responsible for the government delivering. now they're just talking about yeah, we'll shut it down. >> he knows it's good for his base and he knows that's going to be a 345i69ding factor for them. knows he needs to promise that and needs to actually deliver on it. but the response on capitol hill was really telling about what this actually means, which was basically a shrug. they know and they have indicated that the president is aware that they are going to need to get this funding done for republicans to hold on if they have hopes to hold on to the majority in november and then save the border wall fight for the lame duck session. >> do you think that's right, john? do your people out there want that wall? >> everyone keeps saying the donald trump base. and you've got to understand there's two bases. first of all, there are conservatives, and we've got gorsuch. we're going to get kavanaugh. and we have vice president mike pence. the conservatives, fine. the second big part of the base

is what i call the stick it to the man base. they're democrats and republicans. and frankly, they would love to see the government shut down and have this president do it. and this is what i was saying. they're going to, instead of saying lock her up, they're going to start chanting "shut it down." because they believe donald trump knows what's right and how we should do these things and he's not afraid with the economy doing well to use some of that capital to get his wall. and so i don't think he's bluffing. i think he's dead serious on this. >> i couldn't disagree more. one, the republican party is now the donald trump party. right? you talk about conservatives and what once upon a time that means. apparently now it means run up deficits, it means we're not for free trade and it means we're about shrugging away from family values. so i don't know what conservatism means anymore with donald trump. two is look, it does play to his base. but house and senate republicans are right. it is not at all helpful to them when they have to win these suburban districts filled by, guess what, college-educated

suburban women who have been moving away from what they're seeing in washington right now p last thing -- >> they don't like the separation of children. they don't like that part. >> well, the last thing they want is more of this divisiveness and more of this sort of red meat politics. the other issue is health care which -- >> the same argument that the left made of why hillary clinton was going to beat donald trump. by telling me about the same college educated suburban women who were never going to vote for trump. >> i never made that argument. >> but a lot of people -- >> i heard that a lot. >> you know what happened is a lot of rust belt democrat working families voted for donald trump for this very reason, that they like this guy doing this. >> and he got a majority in wisconsin and michigan -- >> and pennsylvania and ohio. >> he got a majority there? no, he didn't get a majority there. >> well, he won the states handily. >> he won by like a point. >> meanwhile -- if you win by one vote it counts. by the way, he did carry those

states. >> but he didn't win a majority, right? >> okay. over the weekend leaders of the conservative koch brothers, remember them, their political network said they're frustrated with the direction of the republican party, telling reporters that they're attempting to rebrand the organization by vowing to be less partisan. one top koch network official told reporters the divisiveness of the white house is causing long-term damage. in response steve bannon told politicalo that the koch brothers need to shut up and get with the program and here's the program. ground game, to support trump's presidency and program and victory on november 6th. let me go to bra bend brabender. is this a real civil war? are the money guys saying we're not going to help you anymore, mr. president because the cultural stuff is too hot? >> let's be clear here. the koch brothers never really helped this president financially. >> $400 million they're spending this fall. on republican candidates. $400 million. >> steve bannon is a true believer. you can't be 80% with the president. you have to be 100% with the president. so steve bannon is saying either

you're with us or you're not. that is the wrong approach. they should find common ground. for example, the tax cuts, which has now created this great economy -- >> there it goes. here it comes. >> the lowest unemployment by african-americans and hispanics in our country's history. are the type of things that they all agreed on -- >> are you pandering to the guy next to you, this african-american thing? let me just ask you this -- >> thank you. >> does it bother your conscience, john, that people are willing to put up with any embarrassment, moral embarrassment, whatever, by this president, things that would normally turn them off completely if it was a democrat that did it, as long as they get their fat tax cuts, deregulation, they make more money, they don't seem to care about the moral questions. they don't seem to care. >> this is the paradox of donald trump. >> lu say this, please -- >> what donald trump -- >> he doesn't give me a chance. >> a lot of people say my god, if he's willing to say that, i trust him when he's going to go to washington and basically kick some butt because there's a lot of people who felt that they'd been left economically behind by democrats and republicans and it

basically took a billionaire for them to say -- >> if you look at the predicate for trump, it's economic angst is the bogeyman. we all know it's tribalism. right? and if as long as he's their tribal warrior, build that wall, build that wall, they're going to stick that 44%, 43%, they're going to stick with him through thick and thin. he can play porn stars left and right. they're sticking with him, right? the problem is for the broader republican party, who they actually have to win in the suburbs. that's the problem. >> go ahead, elena. >> koch, they were able to get their tax cuts. so the key for them is being -- push the policy platform into tariffs, into trade, into things that they're concerned about what the president is saying. so this is their way to try and wrangle himself. >> it's business to them. oil and gas. they don't like mass transit. they don't like anything. just lots more oil and gas out filip the round table's sticking with us. up next comedian sacha baron cohen pranks another politician. it's a republican. and this time the target's alabama's failed senate candidate roy moore.

it's about, well, weird stuff. you're going to want to see this. he's done it again. you're watching "hardball." so to breathe better, i go with anoro. ♪ go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ go your own way once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. anoro is not for asthma. it contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. the risk is unknown in copd. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, glaucoma, prostate, bladder, or urinary problems. these may worsen with anoro. call your doctor if you have worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain while taking anoro. ask your doctor about anoro. ♪ go your own way

get your first prescription free at anoro.com. supreme court justice rulth bader ginsburg says she intends to serve at least five more years on the bench. at age 85 ginsburg's the oldest justice but keep in mind her former colleague justice john paul stevens stepped down at 90. so she can make it. after attending a play with the late justice antonin scalia on

sunday bader was asked what keeps her hopeful. she said "the true. >> symbol of the united states is not the bald eagle it's the pendulum. when it goes very far in one direction you can count on it swinging back." that was a play about him. we'll be right back. mpoop! (phone ping) gentlemen, i have just received word! the louisiana purchase, is complete! instant purchase notifications from capital one. so you won't miss a purchase large, small, or very large. technology this helpful...could make history. what's in your wallet? ♪ call on me brother ♪ when you need a hand

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welcome back to "hardball." the latest episode of sacha baron cohen's satirical show "who is america" features normer republican alabama senate nominee roy moore, who faced multiple allegations of sexual misconduct with women, who said he pursued them when they were teenagers. moore thought he was invited to washington to meet with an israeli anti-terrorism expert. the expert, played by cohen, began the interview by explaining how an israeli machine used to detect terrorists can also detect pedophiles. let's watch. >> the phrase "sweating like a rapist" is actually based on science. >> hmm. >> so in israel they developed a

machine that is used in schools and playgrounds to detect anyone coming in. just switch it on and because neither of us are sex offenders then it make absolutely nothing. you just put it on, you put it nearby -- [ beeping ] wait. there's obviously a problem. hold on. hold on. [ beeping ] it must be faulty. >> i've been married for 33. >> so -- >> i never had an accusation of such things. >> i am not accusing you at all. this is -- >> if this is an instrument, then certainly i'm not a pedophile. okay? >> no, but the machine -- >> well, i don't know. maybe israeli technology hasn't developed properly. >> this is 99.8% accurate. it is not saying that you are a pedophile. of course not. >> i am simply cutting this conversation right now. thank you. >> no, have you been -- >> i support israel. i don't support this kind of stuff. thank you. >> no, it is -- i'm not saying that you're a sex offender at

all. >> elena, was he punked or what? he seemed like he sniffed the problem eventually. >> i think somebody at the roy moore team needs to learn what google is and do a little bit of vetting before they decide to agree to any of these kinds of interviews. but sacha baron cohen struck again with another politician. >> i immediately thought somewhere mitch mcconnell's sitting giving a big sigh of relief that that guy's not in the u.s. senate as a republican. >> that's a twist. >> i'll tell you what, though. there is a warning here for republicans and that is there's this blending of politics and entertainment where the democrats are way better at -- it's out there much more than any republican. and this is how you're hitting millennials and generation z. and it's a problem for us. but i think there is a good rule for all of us. if you're in your 30s and you have to have somebody's mom if you can take them out on a date it's not a good idea to go. >> thank you, john. i can never read you entirely. thank you, elena schneider, cornell belcher and john

brabender. when we return let me finish with trump watch. you're watching "hardball." (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything so we know how to cover almost anything. even "vengeful vermin." not so cute when they're angry. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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trump watch monday july 30th, 2018.

for those waiting for the other shoe to drop in this russia probe, we may have just heard it. it was the sound of the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, saying there's no law against colluding with the russians. after months of denying that he colluded with putin's people, trump has now pulled his line of defense back to deny there's anything wrong with it. two problems with that one, mr. president. one, it sounds like you're no longer prepared to deny you colluded. otherwise, why would you be saying all of the sudden that it's legal? second, you now face the problem of the law. you say there's nothing wrong with what you may have done. tell that to the 12 russians who special counsel mueller has indicted for trying to disrupt and discredit the 2016 presidential election. if they are guilty of their conspiracy, then you could be found guilty for helping them advance it. when the the united states congress impeaches you, mr. president, or the u.s. senate convicts you or removed you from office, it amounts to history yet to be written. but it appears you're now counting on the public to accept an argument that selling out to the enemy means their standard of an honorable american

president. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> just so you understand it, there's been no collusion. >> rudy giuliani does it again. >> i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. >> and again. >> he did not participate in any meeting about the russia transaction. >> and again. >> i've been sitting here looking in the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime. >> it's not. >> collusion is not a crime. >> tonight, what we learned about a second meeting before the trump campaign met the russians in trump tower. >> i think you're going to find it very informative and very, very interesting. >> then, robert mueller brings his first case as the manafort trial begins. >> that's obviously what our position is. >> plus, why the president is threatening a shutdown. >> i would have no problem doing a shutdown. >> and 99 days from the election,