our two most recent episodes go well together. last being housing segregation and then segregation in schools. tell us what you think using our #withpod. the rachel maddow show is up next with ari melber. >> one more thing we should tell people, if you think it is warranted, give your podcast five stars on apple. >> great point. i was too shy to say it. >> or it could be less than five. i would give five and people should vote on it. it is a podcast with a lot of interesting stories. and thank you for joining us. i'm in for rachel who has the night off. we're enjoying several big stories including a turning point in the trial of paul manafort. today they brought out

manafort's own bookkeeper who told the jury that he kept his accounts secret from her. it goes to the case that manafort had throughout these tricky transactions. we have legal experts who were there enside the courtroom to explain tonight. there's a breaking news story about how an alleged russian spy burroughed inside the u.s. embassy in moscow. we begin with some new flares coming about the risk that's continue to be posed from president trump's one wound meeting with vladimir putin in helsinki. that was just three weeks ago. according to experts across the spectrum, it marked low point in a president swi many low points that relate to russia. experts inside trump's own administration say this is a problem. indeed it was trump's own intelligence chief who took this extraordinary step of publicly noting that trump was hiding what happened in the media from

him. that was an admission. it was made under questioning by andrea mitchell at a security conference. >> in helsinki, the president was alone with vladimir putin for two hours. more than two hours. with only translators. basically, how do you know what happened? you are on the dark side of the moon. how do you have any idea what happened in that meeting? >> well, you're right. i don't know what happened in that meeting. if you had asked me how that ought to be conducted, i would have suggested a different way. but that's not my role. that's not my job. so it is what it is. is there a prediction vladimir putin could have recorded it? >> that risk is always there. >> people who run intelligence agencies do have all sorts of legit ways to duck those questions. they can say, they won't discuss

private deliberations with the president. they can say they won't discuss classified information and certainly part of that meeting would be classified. note instead, coats sent a signal that whatever went down, he was out of the loop. if what went down was bad or nefarious, he is on the record. that he was out of the loop. perhaps he hoped to nudge his boss to bring him into the loop. it is hard to run the intelligence agency's quest for information around the world if you can't get basic info from down the hall. here's what's new. we are learning officially that coats still doesn't know what went down chflt makes the history even more concerning. since what we do know is that trump walked back his support for putin inhealth, in helsinki but then canceled it out. then bureaucrats got in to action. they had an actual security council meeting on election security which would be a good thing but reporters noted entire

summit was less than an hour and didn't have any follow through and that match is reporting the trump administration has no central policy for election security and no one is in charge. while we're running through the facts, note that another appointee flagged that they don't have a key person minding the store in cyber security because the trump administration eliminated the job of cyber security coordinator. so that's a lot of facts. that is the current policy baseline. experts noting the trump approach looks more like cyber lackadaisical than cyber secure. that is the framework for what happened today. a list of intelligence vips, marching into the white house briefing room. and you can see it there. they were rolling deep. you see the leaders of intel announcing that contrary to what their boss says, the recent reports in the news of russian mid-term meddling are true. that russian interference and u.s. politics continues right

now, and they say, this administration is working to protect the mid-terms and their boss does care about it. now, if there is a silver lining here to that group of people you saw, we'll play some of what them. the silver lining is these professionals are trying to show a united front and correct their own president while trying not to enrage him as he certainly watched their televised performance. but as jerry garcia pointed out long ago, every silver lining has a touch of gray is that came as reporters asked the logical question that the contradiction about the message in that room and trump's message in helsinki. >> let me take you back to helsinki. the president seemed to indicate that he may believe vladimir putin when he says, he didn't have any influence in the 2016 election. what is your belief about the russian government involvement in meddling in 2016? >> well, the relationship to the

2016 election, of course, none of us were in office at that particular time. the president, the vice president, i think everyone on this stage has acknowledged that the ica was a correct assessment of what happened in 2016. our focus here today is simply to tell the american people, we acknowledge the threat. it is real. it is continuing and we're doing everything we can to have a legitimate election that the american people can have trust in. >> so that was the answer. that's the tension on the intelligence. then there is a separate tension about how do you indict is that punish the people identified by very intelligence for attacking american democracy. we all know, there is a busy special counsel operation he has denigrated and lied about. so a question on that was posed to the fbi director who of course, let's not forget has this job because his predecessor was fired because of the same russia probe and that firing is

now part of the obstruction inquiry. >> i have a question for director writeay. the special counsel has indicted more than 20 russian officials based on work by the fbi for meddling in the 2016 election. the president has tweeted that that investigation by the special counsel is a hoax and should be shut down. i know you've said you don't believe it is a hoax. why would the american people believe it when the president says the investigation by the special counsel a hoax and when the press secretary yesterday said there was a lot of corruption within the fbi. do you have any response to those things college from the white house? >> i can assure the men and women of the fbi, starting from the director all the way on down will follow our rules and do our jobs. >> a strong question. the answer is up in the air. that is a statement that could mean something. that oath that he referenced is

to the constitution. and there are those who took their oaths to mean they had to stand up to criminal conduct when they discovered it among their peers or superiors but the director's statement could mean nothing because it is leaning on a cliche rather than stating unegive economy the fbi director has the president's back, isn't going to change his actions or words just because the president down the hall keeps running down the probe. there's one more thing we can glean and it came from dan coats, the one who chose to tell everyone before that trump was hiding the putin meeting's contents from him which is something he doesn't have to put on black in front of the nation. but he did it again today. this was not an issue of timing or delay. it has been three weeks and your nation's top intelligence officials doesn't know what happened in helsinki. >> in the run-up to the helsinki

summit, the u.s. officials, the nato ambassadors to russia said the president would raise the issue of activity. he didn't discuss it, at least at the press conference. you're saying the president has directed you to make the issue of election meddling a priority. how do you explain the disconnect between what you are saying, his advisers, and what the president has. about this issue? >> i'm not in a position to either understand fully or talk about what happened at helsinki. >> he's not in a position. meaning he still doesn't know. there is an old brooklyn saying about that moment of insight that hits you when you learn a truthful if you don't know, now you know. under trump, dan coats has turned that upside down saying he didn't know and he still doesn't. he is the one person in charge of our u.s. national security secrets.

if he still doesn't know, that sounds like a problem for all of us. we begin with ken dillanan. there's been a great deal of reporting and schools. thank you for joining me. >> thank you. good to be here. >> when you look at that united front, what do you see as the positive and what do you see as problematic that was clearly left unsaid? >> that was such a fascinating mixture of truth in fiction, of cynicism and earnestness. the fiction and the sincynicisms john bolten saying that from the moment donald trump took office, he has had a strong and forceful policy to do you meaner foreign enter sxrengs russian meddling. that's just false. we've reported that it is false. anyone who has a twitter feed knows that's untrue. what he has done is, even

tonight hours after this event, donald trump gave a speech and he again referred to the russian hoax. he said his relationship could be good but it is hindered by the russian hoax. so that was ridiculous. but chris wray, paul, the head of the national security agency, and dan coats, i really believe do have an interest in trying to do something and they did want to communicate to the american people the government does recognize this is a problem. they're trying on flag that the russians still throughout intervening and there are some things that they are doing about it. the most interesting thing that i heard was paul, a general and who commands cyber command, the nation's cyber war force. he was prepared to go after foreign meddlers. and he seemed to suggest that he had presidential authorization to do that. i think it is up in the air. we need to pin it down of he can't use the vast cyber arsenal at his disposal unless donald

trump allows him to do that. but that was the biggest news. other things them we already knew. yes, the russians continue to meddle in our politics. yes, dhs is receiving out to shore up cyber security. yes, the fbi has a foreign task force and no, there is no presidential leadership. there is to central unifying -- >> let's dig into that point you raised. it is common to say this is better than nothing. it is a low bar for the administration. so while better than nothing, doesn't it still look like the cyber security plan is a headless body where the folks do what they can but we all know and see that the head of the government is undercutting them before and after. >> yes. and the biggest evidence of that is that they're having this news

conference 100 days before the mid-terms. bits a year and a half too late. none of this behavior by the russians stopped at all after the 2016 election. particularly the intervention on facebook and twitter, the attempt to divide americans by creating false personas and stirring up trouble. that's been going on. and dan coats gave a speech where he said the system is blinking red. so yes. you're right. we can shore up our cyber defenses and we can do a lot of things on try to defend. but the russian intelligence hackers are always going to get in in some fashion. the way that you stop them is to deter them. and the only person who can do that is donald trump. >> and just briefly, to that final point. one of the issues with the obama administration and the perils that are posed, was, quote, obama's approach, the "washington post" noted, don't make things worse. obama's advisers concern any pre election response could provoke an escalation from putin. putting aside the trump piece of

this, what is the problem for the pus as you put it, lives in a glass house when it comes to escalating a cyber global war? >> that was a reasonable concern by barack obama. we are the most vulnerable of any society. we are the most internet connected. and we are extremely vulnerable to russian cyber attack. and they are in our networks, including the critical infrastructure. most intelligence officials and experts that i talked on feel like, what else can we do? there has to be a response to this. we are wide open to an attack on our democracy. and the russians have not been deterred in the least and there has to be something we can do to deter them. >> thank you so much. all over the story. as we turn to our next guest, i want to look at march of next year. the senate intel committee was looking at these issues and they heard testimony from a former fbi special agent. and he said something that has echoed in people's heads ever

since. >> this is not new for the russians. they've done this for a long time across europe. but he was much more engaging this time in our election. why now? mr. watts? >> i think this answer is very simple and what no one is really saying in this room which is, part of the reason request active measures have worked in this u.s. election is because they've used active measures at times against his points. on 11 october, president trump stood on a stage and cited what appeared to be a fake news story from put nick news that disappeared from the internet. he denies the intel from the boouts russia. he claims that the election could be rigged, that was the number one thing pushed by sputnik all the way until the election. >> i want to bring in clint watts.

in a social media world, hackers and fake news, as a person involved in law enforcement, you don't get any personal pleasure. you go from being early and right about something that is such a massive problem. but the way you put it there in a serious setting to congress, that early on, was far ahead of where people were comfortable stating the problem that you said these russian active measures were put in place basically more effectively because of the way donald trump behaved. how does that context apply? >> it is a happy, sad moment. that is a briefing that should have happened in february 2017. president trump was briefed about this before the inauguration, we know now. and yet there was no response. and the person that should have been leading that press conference today is the commander in chief of this country. it is his job to defend all americans against enemies, foreign and domestic. and particularly when they come together. he should be trying to ensure the integrity of our electoral

process or democratic institutions. so what was fascinating today was essentially, the leaders of these institutions, many of whom have been battered by the boss, are now moving around them to serve the american people. i thought director wray's yomts on target. he said in charge of our organization and this is what we're going to do. the swam the nsa director. he said i'm willing to strike back against russia and i might do it. it is almost independent. it is shocking that we're talking about this. this should be led by a task force, headed by the commander in chief. it should come from the national security staff and it should be an integrated strategy. what if we launch the cyber attack but we come up against the adversary. what if they turn off the lights in one of our cities. this requires coordination. while i'm happy to see the advances being made, and i'll sure this is a reaction to that

helsinki summit and the fear th that many americans have, about interference in our election, i'm still really worried that the right hand and the left hand don't know what each is doing. >> and this is now. this is not litigating 2016. helsinki is now. whatever was secretly discussed is operative now. the mid-term meddling is now. do you have a view, given the great expertise, beyond what most of us have access to, what dan coats is doing there and repeatedly saying he's out of the loop? >> yeah. i think he is trying to make sure that he is honest with the congress which is oversight over him, and with the public. i find value in that. while i'm disappointed what his answer is, at least he's telling the truth saying this is my position and this is what my job is and this is what i know. what makes me nervous, as we saw on that stage in aspen, he didn't even know that the white

house would extend an invitation to vladimir putin to come to the united states. this is stunning for the head of our intelligence to be that out of the loop. so while i like how a lot of these leaders, these institutions are moving around the president, i'm alarmed where our country is. a year and a half later, we're just now saying we'll do something about the attack two years ago. >> you make such an important appointment. something rachel has been all over in her reporting. if the head of intel doesn't know the decision is being made to give putin that benefit, that honor, then obviously they're not even making a pretense of having consulted him which means that decision is not being made based on u.s. intelligence some of the other thing. and questions whether there's anything nefarious. there clint watts, we really appreciate your time tonight. >> thank you. >> we have a lot more coming including day three of paul manafort's trial. stay with us.

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look bad for the defendant because we hear one side, the first best arguments. in this case that's mueller's laser focus on manafort's finances which were presented as lavish, shady, sneaky, and in some cases bizarre. even though the defense is here to come, here's why there was so much bad news for the defendant. manafort's book deeper took stand, paymenting a picture on the boss breaking the law. gates will take the stand we learned today. to be clear, the testimony could reverberate well beyond this trial. for all the talk of people flipping and the intrigue about what mike filppula or george papadopoulos may have told mueller, when gates speaks under oath in public in this trial, it will be the first time we actually hear a trump campaign aide legally turn on another trump campaign aide. and the other development might be a little more melodramatic.

we return to the ostrich jacket. there was an effort to keep the photos away of his sartorial taste. the suits and the $15,000 ostrich jacket. prosecutors argued that through wire transfers, as he controlled to u.s. vendors, that it is directly relevant to the elements of the offenses. that's very lawyerly and we'll show you why. the judge responded, i'm well aware the evidence is relevant and that's why i permitted the government to introduce the amounts of money that he spent. the relevance being, okay, do you know the receipts. the judge goes on to say, what i have not permitted is to gild the lily. if he spent a lot of money on fancy clothes or watches,

they're not men's warehouse clothes but it wouldn't matter if he spent money on men's warehouse clothes. you want to introduce pictures of these suits. that meaning the picture aspect itself isn't relevant at this point and kind of besmirches the defendant. it engenders feelings against rich people gently. so that's how they get sue the details. they have a reason the want to have the jury see with their own eyes the fancy spending. some of this sounds like an episode of the rich and famous. you almost don't need the pictures. they're talking about a $10,000 system put in the house with red and white flowers shaped like an m and a man made pond that was complete with a water fall feature. the receipts are, of course, who we mentioned from the bookkeeper, she said she dwelt the income expenses and the

super rich consultant was living a lie. he was on his way to being broke. he laid to finance institutions to get loans. he couldn't pay his own family's health bills. the prosecution asked, did there come a time when manafort had trouble paying his bills? and she said yes. here's where it comes together. that was part of what was presented today. that was part of 2016. evidence showing manafort needed money. instead of seeking a new consulting gig, his man was to take a demanding full time high stress job as a volunteer. we all know that because he had a written pitch to trump which offered his campaign services for free. no paid job. the worst news for manafort is that all of this written evidence today suggests he was broke and that led him to commit alleged financial crimes. the wider question no matter what happens in this trial is whether paul paul manafort's plan to work for free was itself

another financial lie. did eave plan, executed or not torsion use the trump campaign like prosecutors alleged he would use so many others. as witting or unwitting accomplice to new different illegal money schemes. to be fair, that is not what is charged in this trial. but to be fair, this investigation ain't over either. we're now joined by the correspondent for politico and msnbc contributor, and barbara mcquaid, an msnbc analyst. your day of day three. >> i think that they want to make the case as they said in their trial brief. this isn't just a matter of spending money. it is spending money very lavishly. one of the things they have to prove, when paul manafort signed his income tax returns, he knew they were false statements. he knew the amount of income he was declaring was far less than what he had. how do you show that?

you show it by showing all of the different things he's spending money on. and i'm concern that had information is coming in so quickly, so fast, so much, that the jury is having a hard time keeping up. when you see the pictures, it does bring that home. and it helps explain the motive for the bank fraud charges which is the cash dries up and this is someone who loves money. so when the cash dries up, he needs and is desperate for cash which is why ted bank fraud torsion get the money he needed to pay his expenses. >> well, i am reminded of an owed english teach here used to say, show, doernlt tell. the problem is that the judge is insisting that the prosecutors only tell and very rarely show. so as a result as barbara is alluding to, jurors are getting the equivalent of a ledge order expenses which may not carry as much weight as seeing the actual items. the prosecutors say they're not

trying to make fun of manafort or besmirch his reputation but to say these are not business expenses. these are personal expenses. they could not be any other. these oriental rugs were not going into an office. they were going into his homes. and they're kinds of spending that could not conceivably relate to any legitimate business expense. >> which goes to something we've seen in other cases where there's an accountant's defense. people say, hey, my people were doing this. a lot of money flies around. if you have enough ostrich jackets and the jury says, i remember the ostrich jacket, don't you remember it, it clears that hurdle. i wonder if you could speak to the mueller team that they want to give more than one reason why manafort acted this way. today in the spotlight, the reason was he was desperate, he was broke, and he made these decisions. but they've also separately made the arguments by suggesting in

written filings that he was greedy. to use a more proverbial word, scummy. why do you think they're using more than one theory of why he would allegedly commit these crimes? >> i think they need on establish theories for both sets of counts in this case. there is a seventh counts that relates to the filing of false income tax returns. for that part the purpose is showing his knowledge of the income. and them there is a series of charges related to bank fraud. with regard to those charges, they need to show the motive that he was running out of cash. so that's why he was involved with this money. so there are two different motives. two different theories for the two different sets of cases. the legal standard under the rules of evidence is the evidence should be permissible unless it is substantially more prejudicial than it is probative. because it is probative, these the things he himself brought, it is hard to argue that it is stlangs more prejudicial than probative. >> and josh, what about the big

question that we've teed pup has come up before in reporting in "new york times," and your publication as well, that this was an unusual volunteer arrangement? >> there is no question about that. and at a particular moment. i think this case span as long period of time. from 2010 back to 2005 to 2016 and 2017 right into the heart of the campaign and beyond. in 2010, manafort seemed to be doing okay. he was bringing in a lot of money. and the oligarchs supporting the party of regents. he spent $60 million in ukraine. you can manage to spend a few years on $60 million but hit begun to dry up in 2015 and 2016 and that's when the desperation set in. and the real question is, was that job at the top of the trump campaign a product of this desperation? was he going to go through the

revolving door and become another washington lobbyist once again like everybody else? or was there something more nefarious at work? >> barbara mcquaid and josh, thank you for your expertise. we will be right back. the fact is, there are over ninety-six hundred roads named "park" in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but allstate agents know that's where the similarity stops. if you're on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the washoe zephyr could damage your siding. and that's very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?

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here's a bombshell from the guardian newspaper in the u.k. a suspected russian spy has been working undetected in the heart of the american embassy in moscow for more than a decade.

the russian national has been hired by guess who? the u.s. secret service and was interested in access to the e-mail systems which gave a potential window into confidential material including the schedules of the president and vice president. investigators have established that she was having regular and unauthorized meetings of russia's principal security agency. it was operating under the umbrella of our own u.s. government undetected for, yes, a decade. what kind of damage could have been done over all that time? and what happens next? this is a big one. i guess we should start with this. where does this person fit in? >> well, i only learned about it when press reporters started poking around about it. i did not know about it when i

was ambassador. it sounds like this woman worked for me when i was there. we don't want people interacting with people, having access to information. there's good news. i think it is highly unlikely that she had access to classified information. that just does not happen for russians, for foreign nationals working there. because she worked for the secret service, she would probably have access to the president and vice president. >> walk us through on the scale of possible, risk, impossible. there were all kinds of explicit measures taken against you and your team there. so you obviously, this is not

like working in the canadian embassy. the u.s. embassy to canada, to be precise. did it cross your mind that this was part of the secret service and the embassy? >> absolutely. of course. with good reason. and i need to be careful about what i talk about and what i don't. when i go to meet with members of civil society, i would show up and there would be all kinds of protesters there. sometimes as many as 50 protesters outside, blocking the doorway for how i could get in there. how did they know my schedule? these were not announced meetings. so one way might be through cyber activity. another might be from people like the individual that were working with us and somehow got access to the calendar. remember, she didn't work close

to me. this woman in the secret service. they got to know my body guards moo who have were russians. they got to know different staff members and that's the other way that information transfer could happen. >> very few as well. the most messed up part of this. and this is probably not something, if you say you're just learning about it. it doesn't involve your leadership. the report is that the secret service quietly terminated this person and there is no indication of any other measures of accountability. this comes at a time when they're talking about indictments of russians and hoping to potentially get them. others could be caught if they're traveling and face justice. could you shed any light on at least this mill report that it sounds like this person was quietly fired? >> well, i would say two things.

three things. one, i don't know the full facts. we could not have arrested her on her territory. so that's different with her than this individual. but three, there should have been a thorough investigation. in fact, oftentimes we on run counter intelligence on someone like that to follow them. to understand what they're doing to try to get greater fidelity as to how the fsb works. and remember, it dedicated lots and lots of resources. i'm being vague with this. first and foremost mergs and they're really good at it. to dismiss somebody without trying to investigate and figure out what they were doing, if that holds to be true, then that was probably a mistake. >> and final question then. certainly can't arrest them on

sovereign territory out of the blue. but reportedly that this was a mole inside the secret service and you want that information, they were in u.s. employ. so what about holding them there? >> you watch a lot of spy shows, don't you? >> spy shows? i just watch the news. >> that's a very interesting idea. should that have been done before? that's a great observation. that was an employee. if everything that has been reported is true, i want to keep saying that. i don't know the actual facts. we should have taken more precautions. and obviously this person was not fulfilling their contract as has been reported. and we want to know more than just sweeping this under the rug and moving on.

we want to take advantage when we learn this. we did have some good intelligence that we know allegedly that she was reporting to senior fsv officials. we should have taken more appropriate measures to learn more about what happened including i'm not a lawyer and i don't pre tent to be one. but including, of course, was there criminal activity that should have been investigated. >> it is an intriguing story as you mentioned. it is a brand new one from guardian so we may yet learn a lot more. we appreciate your expertise. thank you for spending some time with us document. >> sure. thank you for having me. >> appreciate it. up next, a friendly game you might want to play of name that town. ♪ ooh, heaven is a place on earth ♪

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♪now i'm gonna tell my momma♪ ♪that i'm a traveller ♪i'm gonna follow the sun♪ ♪now i'm gonna tell my momma ♪that i'm a traveller transitions™ light under control™ let's do some politics. in one minute we'll broi a hard working political report order

assignment in american swing states. it is in the city of 40,000 people. this is 20 miles sort of south southwest of scranton with a hyphenated name that i'm not going to say this, because here on the show we haven't found a could not sen could not sense us about how to say it. >> one and only eugene curran kelly born in pittsburgh -- >> wilkesboro -- >> the right way to say the might be wilks berre, pennsylvania. however, that's not what the local chamber of commerce say. >> welcome to the greater wilks barre. >> if there are any other pronunciations, take it away. >> hello. and welcome to the virtual tour. >> maybe they're just low key

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it has now been a full month since nbc news first reported allegations that jim jordan ignored allegations of sexual abuse against a team doctor.

this was back when jordan served as an assistant wrestling coach at ohio state in the '80s and '90s. now more than 100 men have come forward with allegations of abuse by that doctor. six dayi insaying they do have to believe that he knew. there is some debate there. the congressman denies knowing about this. he has actually alleged this entire story, which to be clear in its outlines has wide corroborati corroboration, is a choreographed attack by the left. >> the reason you see the left coming at me and lies being told is because we're being effective. >> the guy who is making the most noises has a criminal background. >> it seems to me it was sequenced and choreographed by the left and everything they

have done. >> the timing is suspect when you think about how this whole story came together. >> jim jordan has taken this on by arguing he's a victim of people only doing this for politics. jordan is running for speaker, so he would be the most powerful person in congress, as well as second in line to the presidency of the vice president. congressman jordan has been pressuring victims of the abuse to recant on aspects of their allegations. two ex-wrestlers saying the day after they made these accusations, that jordan got another retired coach to reach out and pressure them into issues statements of support for jordan. one saying i will defend jordan until i have to put my hand on the bible and tell the truth. then he will be on his own. the next wrestler saying when he refused, jordan's allies began attacking him. what a world we live in when a

member of congress is digging up dirt on sex abuse victims like us. jordan's people say that he has many supporters and of course we encourage folks to speak the truth. whether the new reports will change anything about jordan's political race here in the house is open. the president and republican leaders have not weighed in in any great detail. this vein of reporting is a campaign issue in the ohio special election. that's the race next week. there is a new ad there online ask whether he stands with the victims or stands with jim jordon while he was a coach and the approach he took. i turn to jonathan allen who is out in the field looking at all of these races. what is important to you? on the one hand, he stands not accused of the original

misconduct. yet, the way he responded raised new questions with the very effective community, including people who say they were victims. >> right, ari. you not only have these allegations that jordan was aware of and turned a blind eye but now allegations of a cover up. that quote you read before is devastating. i'm going to be with jimmy until i have to swear on a bible. this is really tough stuff. i think the problem for republicans right now is there is a little bit of that washington bubble. they seem to forgot what happened to them in the 2006 midterms when there was a coverup with the mark foley page scandal. a lot of them weren't in congress then. they seem to be unaware of the larger moment in american history where you have got all these sexual abuse revelations, starting back in the penn state case and the joe paterno team.

you can only imagine what democrats will do over the next few weeks, given all the attacks on nancy pelosi in the past. what would happen if nancy pelosi was the speaker? you can imagine the ads on what if jim jordan was the speaker of the house? >> do you think this cuts across party lines out there? >> absolutely. this is one of those issues that does cut through because unfortunately sexual abuse has, you know, hurt so many people in our country. and even people who aren't victims of it certainly can understand. this isn't a partisan or political issue. it is a character issue. >> right. it goes to not only what happened, how did it look in the moment from what someone saw, but given what has been called out in the reckoning, how do you deal with it now?

that's where he's under extra scrutiny. thank you for making time for us tonight. >> thank you. we will be right back. how do you win at business? stay at laquinta. where we're changing with contemporary make-overs. then, use the ultimate power handshake, the upper hander with a double palm grab. who has the upper hand now? start winning today. book now at lq.com.

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booking a flight unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip. add-on advantage. only when you book with expedia. i'm discovering a russian spy. we've had quite a show tonight. that does it for us. we will see you again tomorrow. you can turn into the beat at 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow.

i will be joined by john podesta and eddy griffin. something else we're looking forward to, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> i'm glad you covered the jim jordan case. we haven't had a spot to squeeze it into in the show, but i certainly have been tweeting about it. the day will come in these civil lawsuits about it where he is going to find himself under oath at a deposition at some point about this. >> you make that point. and i think the corollary to paterno, which was a cultural point, is another. the old history comes back and that's what's so fascinating or as many people have pointed out disturbing about the way he seems at least right now uninterested in doing any of that reckoning. it is an important story. >> yeah. the paterno model has to be what everyone on the jim jordan sid