are ii'm richard lui. i want to start this hour with president trump right now on his way to ohio where he will hold a rally this evening for congressional candidate. this is just three days before a high stakes special election there. troy balderson is locked in a tight race with democrat danny o'connor for a seat there that the gop has held for decades. polls show balderson's ten point lead has shrunk to just one point. so now the president is trying to reverse that trend. meanwhile trump is taking to twitter to try to make the case for tariffs by claiming tariffs are working far better than anyone ever anticipated. in an earlier tweet, he questioned the intelligence of lebron james as well after the baseball superstar criticized trump in a televised interview. >> what i noticed over the last few months, that he has kind of used sport to kind of divide us and that is something that i

can't relate to because i know that sport was the first time i ever was around someone white, you know, and i got an opportunity to see them and learn about them and they got an opportunity to learn about me and we became very good friends. and i was like oh, wow, this is all because of sports. and sports has never been something that divide people, it has always brought people together. >> joining us now, eliza collins, on host of the nyc podcast, and also ms contributor. ohio 12, we've been looking very closely at this week. and the numbers are moving. the question is, as the president is about to swoop in there in the next hour and a half, we got a peek here that he will be trying to justify tariffs, probably talk about economic conditions being better than they have been in the past. >> right. the any economy is a win winnin

that probably will resonate. tariffs not so much. tariffs are a tough issue to explain in a place like ohio. and it is interesting of course going after lebron james, we've heard that, this is a suburban district, this is a republican district, but this is not necessarily a trump based district. so while he might be rallying the base who he certainly does need to show up, it is not quite clear if the things that he will talk about will convince that suburban mom sort of the soft republicans who also need to show up in order to keep the seat red. >> and ozzie, also part of this presidential voter, are they a midterm voter, is the 10 or 11 points that swung for the president during the election, is that going to show up for this midterm. >> that is a great question. and the one thing that the presidents that had some trouble with is transporting his loyal followers into voters for other people. by showing up, he is putting himself in the middle of this race. if the democrat takes over this seat, it is going to mark the president as someone who is

potentially weak going forward in the next election. he is usually sort of had the ability to step back. remember with roy moore, he said he was supporting somebody else and then sort of reluctantly went with him. here there is no hiding that. he is putting himself directly in the middle of this race and whether or not the republican is able to hold on is largely on donald trump's performance. >> are does balderson want the president there as we wipe off the lens there from our camera looking at what is happening? does he want the president there, charlie? >> well, i think that he is hoping that president trump will activate his base. this has been a year in which obviously the enthusiasm level among democrats is dramatically higher than republicans and the closing gap between o'connor and balderson is evidence of that. what is interesting about this, the message that trump has been putting out, putting aside this nonsense about lebron james, it has been a very meat and potatoes message. bolder son

bolder -- balderson is better on crime and taxes and ordinary issues and the question is whether the trump base will respond to that a oppose to the more personality consult that surrounds trump as an individual. >> if the numbers froze right now, if the democrats even with an l in this race still have won because it went from double digit down to single digits as least as of today's polling. >> well, they will definitely spin it as a win. and you could argue that the fact that they are narrowing the gap so dramatically on a race on the seat that has been held by a republican for decades is a big deal. there are lots of other races like that actually more favorable to democrats across the country come november, they only need 23 seats in order to flip the house. so they would probably take this feeling confident, take this game plan to some of these other races.

but again, one point loss is still a loss. the seat still does stay red and they will have to win seats elsewhere. this of course is a special election, so there will be another race in november. but a lot is still a lot. but i get you can see democrats pretending it is a win or pretty close to a win. >> the last special election before the election. and since you did talk about broadening it out, let's do it for a blip of a second. there is what is happening the primary not too far away in michigan, just there two days ago. you could not watch any other advertisement except those for either republican candidate or a democratic candidate in the primary that is happening there. and they may have their first democratic candidate muslim american. and in virginia, also super tight right now. eric cantor's old district, a democrat now evening it up at least according to the cook political report. so this energy may not be unique to the special election. >> no, and with as much as donald trump has electrified the

republican base or certain portions of republican voters, he has galvanized democrats or people who want to vote in opposition to him. so people are taking that energy and they are going into local races, going into off cycle races, going into special elections. all of this is happening in response to the 2016 election when trump won. so it is not just happening in the rust belt or the northeast. it is happening all across the board. and donald trump for as much as he's been helpful to some members of the republican party, he has been the number one advertising poster child for people to come out and vote if you are a democrat or progressi progressive. they mentioned donald trump. they say their opponent is related or connected to donald trump. and the energy just flows from there. >> charlie, is it going to be all about white women and how they vote? and then we'll ask eliza as well. is that what you're watching there in ohio 12?

>> although i made fun of the lebron thing, i'm actually quite interested to see how white men respond to this. it is a republican district north of columbus, but pretty close to cleveland and lebron remains pretty popular among men who like basketball at least in ohio. and so i wonder how this last minute twist will play there and we'll find out on tuesday. >> your thought, eliza. >> i think he is right. this race white men are is very interesting as well. but white women i think this is sort of the beginning of a pattern that we will be watching certainly across the country. white educated married women who have tended in the past to vote republican but also might not be strong supporters of the president, might have questions about some of his tweets, some of the things that he says. if they go against him here, there could be an arltrgument t that could be the beginning of a pattern. >> and of course the back and forth of lebron james, favorite

son of this state and the president calling don lemon who is interviewing lebron james, he called basically not smart. and that whole thematic here when you look at the state of ohio, that the president would be coming out against one of their favorite sons. >> politically that is the dumbest thing that somebody could do right before they go to ohio. but donald trump's universe is usually only about ten minutes in front of him. he saw something on television. reacted to it. and then i don't imagine he thought much beyond that. going into ohio, that is probably insulting lebron james is probably the last thing anybody would want to do. >> and going back to that statement from the president and his tweet, he says at the end of it, he says i like mike. by the way, mj comes out and says i actually do support lebron and what he's doing in the community there and that doesn't help because in addition to that, now the first lady

through a statement saying that she does support the efforts that lo ebron vamjames and folke him investing back into the community. did it surprise you, and she might actually go and visited school -- the project that lebron james is investing in. >> i think the marriage between donald trump and melania trump is continually interesting when we see these divisions. there was the story a few weeks ago when she was watching cnn instead of fox news on air force one and her spokesman had to put out a statement that she can still watch whatever she wants notwithstanding a tantrum from trump about that. as someone who grew up in indiana as a chicago fan in the michael jordan era, it is noticeable that his statement was tepid. he didn't say he was against trump, just tepidly for lebron. about as weak a statement as he could have made. >> and what the pictures will

look like when you see the first lady should she go to this very community project that lebron invested in. >> yeah, this is reminiscent of the child separations that we had earlier this summer where she kind of came out as against that, she went to the border of course that all blew up because her shirt that said i don't care do you, all of the headlines ended up being about that. but that was another division where she decided to go see something sort of dividing with her hufs and tmust and the pres. and of course going to a school that lebron just started does mark a clear division between the first lady and the president. >> all right. thank you all. there is a new proposal to the white house from special counsel robert mueller. team trump meeting this weekend to draft a response. what is on the table and what team trump says is off-limits. s, diabetic nerve pain, these feet... ...raised a good sport... ...and became a second-generation firefighter.

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will he or won't he? that is the question. president trump's legal team spending this weekend deciding whether their client will agree to be interviewed by special counsel robert mueller. that is according to his personal lawyer rudy giuliani who says that he expects a decision in the next ten days. the latest in a series of time lines and scenarios laid out by giuliani. >> you've said now july 4th is when you expect to have a decision on whether the president will sit with the interview.

why are you dragging it out? don't you know what you want to do? >> sure, i don't want to do it. >> it is past the july 4th. where do we stand? >> we would not recommend an interview unless they can satisfy us that there is some basis for this investigation. we haven't yet made a final decision. there is a slight opening. we're still -- i won't give you a lot of hope it will happen, but we're still negotiating. we haven't stopped negotiating with them. >> let's bring in now editor-in-chief of law fair and also nbc legal analyst and also former assistant for intelligence at the fbi. benjamin, we'll start with but. we played a little bit of the sound of how rudy giuliani has gone back and forth. is there any sort of penalty from going back and forth and from pushing this decision off? >> yeah, let me translate that rudy giuliani -- knows quothose

for you. they translate loosely into mr. mueller, i dare you to issue that subpoena. and the relevant question right now is whether mueller needs the interview enough to take rudy giuliani up on that dare. and that would produce a significant litigation. it is one that i think and a lot of other legal analysts think the special counsel would probably but not certainly win. and giuliani and his co-counsel are making the bet that mueller will not pull the trigger. and so the question now is will he or won't he. >> is it i dare you, frank, is that what you're seeing too? >> this is a classic game of chicken. there are two cars racing toward each other and we need to see who will swerve off the path first. and each side is hoping the other swerves. but look, here is my position on the interview.

there is no strategic reason for the president to want to sit down and do this. it is all bad. he's already heard his voice on a tape recording courtesy of michael cohen. he knows there is more tapes out there. he doesn't know what mueller has. if he continues to not be interviewed, he can pretends to be the beleaguered president and claim mueller is being unreasonable about parameters and demands. mueller needs it not legally. i'm convinced he does not need it legally, but rather for the court of public opinion. if we're headed toward impeachment proceedings, he needs to show the public he is being gray us some enough to hear the president's side of the story. but that is the only reason he needs it. i think ultimately he would go to a grand jury subpoena and try to get that. but this remains to be seen. >> so what number do you think it will be, we're seeing 10 days, could it be 20, 30? >> i don't think that you can predict the time frame.

the president's lawyers will drag this out as long as possible because the moment they say no in a formal way, they force the issue. and so the longer they can drag it out, the better. and so the question is at what point does mueller either shrug his shoulders and say i don't need the interview, i won't litigate over it, because especially if i win the litigation, the president can just assert the fifth amendment and not testify anyway, or say as frank suggested i need to go the extra mile to try to show that i've done everything i can and play that card. and so i don't think that you can play out the time frame. it does feel like it is coming to a head, but it has felt like that before as well. >> and looking at maybe one of the indicators reporting coming out today from the "washington post" here, and that is that as

the president has been watching the reporting, he is getting more frustrate as of late, he is also worried that his son don jr. might be next in the crosshairs here. >> yeah, this is quite the scenario where perhaps family members including don jr. now criminally exposed and that is leverage that the mueller team could use against the president. and that plays out publicly as well. because the president may be very concerned not so much about the impact on his family as equally about what this looks like if he is not playing the family man and not protecting his son. so that could come into play here. but i don't think that will be what this interview decision is about. i really don't. i just think it is about whether or not the president says i'm not listening to my attorneys, i'm going to sit down man-to-man and i can do this, by the way that would be a serious mistake, or whether he listens to his attorneys and he does not sit down with mueller.

>> so how might the heat be turned up on don jr. from the previous interactions he's had with this investigation so far? >> well, there are questions about testimony he gave to the senate -- to the congressional investigations. and, you know, you could have a subpoena issued to him. you could have a demand for an interview. so there are lots of ways the investigative temperature could go up. i agree with frank very much that the question of a presidential interview is a different question. and i don't think that is going to -- i don't think it would be proper actually for the investigation to use leverage against family members as a way of coercing the president. >> and frank, i want to squeeze this in. this is mariia butina, the gun rights advocate from russia in

the reporting coming out that she cozied up with a former trump campaign aide jd gordon who was the campaign's director of national security for about six months. again, the question, compazying to and what cozying means with again an advocate coming out of russia here. >> the more we learn about mariia butina the more she looks like not the innocent college student. looks like she is directed, looks like she is trying to penetrate circles. got the earmarks of a controlled co-opt of the intel intelligence services. we saw the comment 3:00 in the morning awaiting further orders. she was getting very close and likely the bureau thought she was getting too dloet iclose to inner tir kein inner circles. all right. thanks. republican heavy weight oig are starting to choose sides.

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welcome back. the republican party found itself in maybe an awkward position this week. forced to take sides in a growing feud between president trump and mega donors charles and david koch.

the president blasted the kochs in a series of tweets tuesday calling them a total joke in real republican circles. he also said he never sought their support and doesn't need their money or bad ideas. trump's attack came after a koch-linked group launched an ad targeting the president's tariffs. >> we're seeing a rise in protectionism. they are doing whatever they can to close themselves off from the new. this is a natural tendency. but it is a destructive one. >> the billionaire brothers did not endorse the president in 2016 and have since criticized several of his policies. let's bring in a democratic strategist and former executive of the new york state democratic party, and also a republican strategist and political analyst. great to see you both. and i guess since we're starting with that, we'll go to the republican friend on the table. and so you your thought about what clicked in the koch brothers brains that said okay, we are actively now going to, if you will, go up against this

presidency. >> because the koch brothers have long been people of principle. whether you agreed with them or not, they have been very consistent. the president is so insecure because he never knows what policy he is for for how long that of course he would attack somebody else because he fears he has the bigger platform which is nice, but i'd be very careful if i was the president going toe to toe against the koch brothers because they have been in this game a long time and they have also supported a lot of members of the house and senate. and they have a lot of loyalty and as you mentioned, they spend a lot of money. and they do it wisely. they stay on message, they stay on issues, something the president doesn't do. >> and let's dig a little deeper. although they are almost omnipresent some might say, we're talking about heartland billionaires, the koch industry big footprint in the south here could have ripple effects if those that they support in the heartland decide to push and go

along with them. >> absolutely. now, as a democrat, i'm not going to stick up for the koch brothers here at all. but what i will say to susan's point, yeah, they have a tremendous amount of support, snell wa they will wait this president out. they have the money and support to do that. but looking at it from the outside, outside of the republican party, it is a situation where the party itself even the grass roots, even in middle america is coming to a reckoning. they will have to figure out whose side they are on and whether or not they want to stand up before the koch brothers who have been so bad for my party and for my former president in barack obama, or do they stand with president trump who nobody can -- >> and just one quick thing. they went straight to camera. for years they were really quiet, they were behind the scenes. this is personal. they are not hiding. they are saying we have a problem with you and here we are. >> when we look at what is happening in ohio since we've been watching live pictures

throughout the last hour and a half or two and we expect the president to arrive and get there on the ground, the question might be is the president in a phase where for local politics, he is not a help in some cases, a help in others, or is it a nancy pelosi messaging which is coming from the president as well and republicans? which is the dynamic? >> now that we're weaning our way of on of the primary season, in a primary the president is key. he is absolutely helpful. in the trump district that is going to be supportive of donald trump, by fi5 to 15 points or more, the president is bad. in a swing district, he is toxic , horrible. >> this is not a swing district and they lost ten points, balderson did. ohio 12. >> it is supposed to be a trump, 15 point trump seat. it is now a one point seat.

and that is a clear reflection of the president's policies and more importantly his tone and his messaging and how he deals with people. >> but not easy for your side either because you remember the headlines from the a.p. that said republicans united, democrats divided. you might be divided into what might be called technicolor for republicans it might be seen as binary, right? trump or no trump. >> i don't think we're as divided as most people think. and you are starting to see numbers improve for us in states like wisconsin, michigan and minnesota, that is very important. i think donald trump may have single handedly sunk that congressional campaign by going against lebron james. >> showing he does still not understand politics. >> the point is all politics is local. >> are so what will you learn from a party from what is happening in ohio 12 then? >> i think the trump effect, the negative trump effect is built in. we still need to talk about big

issues, affordability, the fact the tariffs are hurting middle america. we need to talk about that and shay grand experiment and change is not working, but we have a response. >> plus your turnout numbers. because that has been a big factor is seeing the increase in not typical voters, prime voters. >> and i'll add it is also atypical candidates running. we have native american, african-american women running for governor in georgia. so if we have the ability to bring in new candidates, it encourages new voters. >> muslim american in michigan could be a first. so what will you learn from ohio 12? because this is the last special election becaufore the normal election shall we say. >> again, turnout. right now the republicans, yes, advantage is turnout for us. but we have no way of expanding. whereas the democrats can really appeal to a lot of people who

are not typical voters and can increase their math plus when you look at suburban women, college educated folks, that really does change the dynamic. so i think that is part of what we're going to be looking at as a party, is our turnout still there and is it enough. >> and it appears that what the idea will be because the president did release a statement just within the last hour or two when he gets on the ground there, he will be focusing on tariffs and it appears the economy. shouldn't that be what your party is focusing on? good >> we should be. and i think you are starting to see the more of that. and going back to the point of the intra-party problems, when you have candidates like a won in the 14th, talking about big things, i don't like the going after her as the socialist. she is talking about big ideas. and there are a lot of particularly young voters that went into the polls when

throated for barack obama athro throat -- voted for barack obama and they noticed him bailing out the auto industry and reenergying health care, so they have seen government do big things and important things. >> but promibarack obama was prepared. she is not prepared. fine, you don't understand the issue of foreign affairs and the israel/palestinian conflict, fine. but you should know about the unemployment numbers. >> i'll finish with this. based on all of these dynamics that has been asked many times, two party system good? do we need more parties? >> you see that in the states multiple parties. i think that you will see it ecan he merge nationally. not anytime soon, but we'll get there. >> yeah, 2028 probably. >> thank you for giving me a number. great to have you both. great meal of politics we got to share. manafort on trial.

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my bad. monday afternoon paul manafort's accountant going to be back on the witness stand in his tax and bank fraud trial. cindy laporta will be cross-examined by the defense. laporta has already testified that she altered tax and bank documents to lower manafort's tax return and men him ghelp hi

loans. she said manafort was in serious debt by 2016. $1 million in clothing debt alone. with manafort trying to use the bank loans to sustain himself financially. still in question, whether rick gates will testify there. joining me now, signor justice correspondent and the our legal analyst back with us as well. so you were in there, and you have to start there, right, ryan. what stood out to you in what happened this week? >> i mean it was sort of amazing. i think what you have to look at if you look at the big picture here is that essentially what manafort's team will have to argue, that there is this tremendous conspiracy that he had no clue about to save him a lot of money on his tax returns. and just not really a believable or plausible scenario. and i think that it will be a challenge once this switches over to the defense side to make that case to the jurors. you had all these situations where manafort directly was paying for a lot of his more

expensive purchases, the landscaping in the shape of an m at one of his properties in new york, red roses measured out. an ostrich jacket. but those payments were coming from the overseas accounts, so i think that will be tough for the defense to say that he had no clue that any of this was a going on. >> ben, when you were watching this happen and the whole issue of what laporta was saying came about and then the wife walked out and then we have her coming back on monday, what are we going to see on monday in cross that may be of any import here? >> so look, i was not in the courtroom -- >> watching it from afar, yeah. >> just wanted to be clear about that. but the defense's job here as you heard, it goesis a difficul task. this was a strange tricase to go trial with for the defense because the facts are pretty bad.

so their job is going to be to deflect all of the quite obvious improprieties that take place on to the people who worked for manafort rather than himself even though he was clear lit ly beneficial airplane of of it. but you only need one member of the jury to refuse to convict. and you effectively win even if you don't get an acquittal. and so the game here is to generate doubt in the minds of one person. >> so juries are funky things, and let's ask our reporter who is in the room, how was the mood there in the room? >> i mean it is always tough to read juries.

but i've been wrong before certainly. >> well, there is the judge, also manafort, lots of things to watch for you. >> definitely. i think the judge was definitely sort of trying to curtail prosecutors who were using sort of more explicit language. he did not want them to refer to oligarchs. he made a comment along the lines that it is not illegal to be rich and over the top spending isn't illegal. so i think the prosecution is sort of shifting away from that sort of language. but to be clear, a lot of the expenses, these really big clothing and landscaping expenses are pretty key to the case because they were paid for using these overseas accounts. and they were entities that his accountants and financial team believed were clients instead of entities actually controlled by manafort himself. and the lawyer testified that she thought it was strange that -- or rather the accountant testified that it was strange that there were loans coming from people that they thought were clients. >> ben, what do you make of the judge? >> so judge ellis is an

excentric. and he has been a bit of a wild card in this whole proceeding. at one point, you know, causing quite a flurry in the conservative media by raising the anxiety that there may be a problem with mueller's appointment, only then to turn around and write a lengthy opinion saying just the opposite. he has clearly held the prosecution to its paces and limited its ability to sensationalize this by talking about oligarchs and by making too much of the spending. i think in the broad scheme of things, that is a good thing in the sense that this is at the end of the day a tax fraud trial and the question isn't were you doing business with viktor yanukovich. the question is were you not

paying taxes and fraudulently taking action to avoid paying taxes that you owe the government. and so forcing the government to be very disciplined in the way that it presents that i think is by and large a healthy thing. >> ryan, we were talking about the accountant 1:00 p.m. monday was when she gets cross-examined. what else are you watching in terms of duration? any sense ever that this will go for a week or two or three based on your conversations with those in the room? >> actually the prosecution has made it clear that they expect to wrap up their entire case by the end of next week. so the big question is whether or not rick gates will testify and i think that it seems clear that he will, but always a chance that won't come about. but i think that that is really going to be the key to this case because that is who the defense really wants to pin all of this on. and even though a lot of these dealings and a lot of the relationships he had with the lawyers only had to do with paul manafort's personal taxes and he

had no benefit from them, they will try to say that he was somehow behind all of this and his right hand man was the mastermind of this scheme. >> two great voices here. ryan and ben, thank you both. the u.s. political system once again under attack. the role russia may be playing this time. what facebook is doing about that and what the trump administration is not codoing. t. with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis, are you okay? even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira can help get, and keep uc under control when other medications haven't worked well enough. and it helps people achieve control that lasts. so you can experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure.

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we acknowledge the threat is real, it is continuing, and we're doing everything we can to have a legitimate election. >> the reality is it will take all of us working together to hold the field because this threat is not going away. >> i you fully share the intelligence community and odni's assessments, past efforts and those today to interfere with our election and of the current threat. >> top u.s. intelligence officials you might have seen is it this week saying the russian threat to u.s. election remain very real. this as facebook pulls down skins skin dozens of fake accounts aimed at undermining the united states democracy. 32 profiles were removed for activity that facebook said violates its policy against

coordinated in-authentic behavior including posts like this would be uruld b one urgin attend an event against fascism and another advertising a group with a job calling itself resisters and pushing for a stop against the trump regime. other accounts targeted african-americans with names like black elevation. facebook says it cannot identify the source but that it is similar to russia's efforts around the 2016 election. joining us now, from the "washington post," she's been closely following the story for us. and also will sumner, tech and internet reporter for the "daily beast." elizabeth, one might start how big of a threat is it that they are identifying? is it more or less than what we saw in 2016? >> i think it is less, but we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg right now. and what is really fascinating about this one is you can see the real world tentacles and the

way facebook is charging head first into free speech issues. facebook said that they were going to take down these accounts because of this real world rally that was going to come up next week and they were worried about the harm that this clash could cause. however, during the last year of this group resistors being active, they actually planned several rallies that actually took place. so you see that the real world tentacles, hundreds of people showing up and being boosted by russian influence infiltrating progressive and left-wing movements, that is growing. that is a different part of the conversation than we had last go-round. >> you're saying the reality of the unreal or the digital in this case here. so, will, from what you've learned also, as you heard from elizabe elizabeth, less than what it was in 2016. what's your view on that and what might be seen as remarkable about these recent efforts? >> sure. again, it is less than in 2016 from what we've seen so far. we have no idea what else might be going on. again, this has been paired with

actual hacking attempts on at least one u.s. senator. in this case i think what's interesting is indeed how these groups are interacting. in the past we have seen them perhaps russian groups draw out real world american protesters, but in this case they were teaming up with actual genuine american groups and activists who didn't realize they were in the hands essentially of a foreign actor. in the case of the unite the right counterprotest for this white nationalist protest next week in d.c., the activists on the left who were planning to counterprotest this event are real people, i met some of them, and they did not realize their groups had teamed up with essentially -- with a foreign group. >> elizabeth, one of the points that has been made is facebook is moving forward to be more open about what they were doing. before they were not even admitting that they had a specialized group, if you will, a task force, right, going after this stuff and now they're being very open about it, putting out videos. sheryl sandberg saying for the

social platform, this is an arms race. has there been a change in tone now and openness about what they need to do? >> yeah, they are really turning this almost into a political mission. i mean, look, they're doing advertisements all over the place now, tv, radio -- >> old school medium, right? >> old school mediums, yeah. they're doing facebook too. they're doing videos too. here we were connecting the world and something went wrong. they're trying to show they're making a good faith effort. you can see in this last announcement how complicated it is. they didn't want to attribute this to russia. the story we reported yesterday said twitter gave almost identical accounts to congress about six weeks ago that they did attribute to the russian ira, to the internet research agency, and these were accounts that were almost identical, so you're looking and saying why -- facebook won't attribute it to

russia for political reasons, but think about the problem that causes for real world people. their events are taken down and don't know if it was tied to russia or not. so it creates more confusion. i think as they go deeper into this issue and they're hiring 20,000 new security and safety specialists by the end of this year, so it's a huge push that's started to influence their revenues. their revenues were down 20% this month because of the spending that they're doing on security. so i think that's only going to -- that whole mess is just going to get more complicated and tangled as we head into the midterms. >> and folks are asking, will, as facebook makes these moves, is it really because they ideologically believe this is the right thing to do or are they really trying to stem off future criticism in '18 and '20? how real is this move? because 20,000 is a big number but earnings is not something to sneeze at certainly. >> certainly, absolutely. it seems as though facebook is getting ahead of this in a way

to stave off either future criticism or indeed perhaps congressional regulation, if somehow it turned out that they were used to really manipulate the 2018 or 2020 elections, they would be in a lot of trouble. that's why we're seeing facebook try to be a little proactive. but again, not all that proactive. they're also facing criticism from republicans who accuse them of discriminating against conservatives. so facebook is really in the hot seat for all kinds of reasons right now. >> and the pictures of the two of you bring up one question i want to ask question quickly. elizabeth, you're on the west coast there in our bay area camera and my friend, will, you're on the east coast in our washington bureau and you know that the fingers have been going this way from both sides saying it's washington, d.c., that doesn't get it and washington, d.c., says the valley doesn't get it. are we at a better place where they're working together now? quickly, elizabeth, to you. >> yes, the conversations are

starting to happen. they were basically absent during the 2016 election. but it raises the question who is responsible for this, private companies or law enforcement. >> ten seconds to you, will. >> i think they're working together more but at the same time i think there's a very confusing message coming out of the trump administration in terms of how much they're going to do about this so it remains to be seen. >> elizabeth, will, great conversation. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thanks for having us. t-shirts at a prominent museum sold for $20 and all about false news. what the hubbub was all about that came to an end today. ♪ when i touch you like this

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the mission of washington, d.c.'s newseum -- it was sharply criticized for selling this t-shirt. it says "you are very fake news." responding to the outcry, the newseum today stopped selling that t-shirt saying we made a mistake and we apologize. a free press is an essential part of our democracy and journalists are not the enemy of the people. an honest decision to continue selling president trump's "make america great again" merchandise, they said as an organization that celebrates the rights of people from all political spectrums to express themselves freely, we've historically made all types of political merchandise available for our guests to purchase. that has included former and current presidential slogans and imagery and merchandise from all political parties.

we continue to do so in celebration of freedom of speech. that wraps it up for us this hour here at msnbc. i'm richard lui. thanks for sticking around. you can follow me on facebook, instagram and twitter. let me know what you think. "all in with chris hayes" is next. you have a great night. tonight on "all in" -- >> you're not going to like what you're going to hear but it's going to happen on tuesday. >> explosive new testimony in the trial of paul manafort. >> i'm not going to get into what tactics were used. >> tonight why paul manafort's accountant said she falsified records at his request, and what it means for donald trump's former campaign chair. >> paul manafort just came on, he's great. >> then, why the manhattan madam just met with robert mueller. >> i never forced anyone to do anything. >> and what it has to do with roger stone. >> kristin davis is a good friend of mine. >> plus new reporting on the saudi money flooding trump's new york hotel, and why a