thank you very much for being here with us. have a good weekend. good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york.. >> oh, baby, it's 4:00 in new york city. i am john heilemann here for the irreplaceable nicolle wallace. going to talk about the cloud of robert mueller over president trump's first day of vacation in bedminster, new jersey. his attorney, tv attorney rudy giuliani, acknowledging to nbc news he may not be able to prevent mueller from questioning trump on the question of russian collusion which might mean real legal jeopardy for the president especially as his former campaign chairman paul manafort the guy are all those ties to russian oligarchs and russia money, sits squarely in mueller's crosshairs. on trial manafort is for a fourth day in alexandria, virginia. mueller's star witness, rick gates set to testify any time now. let's not forget, that's a man

who has pleaded guilty and is cooperating with bob mueller's investigation. but wait, there is more. we're also getting new reports including one just this afternoon that tell us mueller is circling one-time trump confidante roger stone who has repeatedly said he thinks he might be indicted by mueller very soon. that is a lot of cause for concern, especially if you're a president whose catch phrase has been for months, no collusion. maybe that explains this. vicinitying and donald trump performance at his rally last night in pennsylvania where he whipped his supporters into a frenzy attacking everyone and anyone on his enemies list this week. >> now, we're being hindered by the russian hoax. it's a hoax, okay? even these people back here, these horrible horrendous people, even these people back there say, look, it looks like the academy awards or something. you ever seen this? let's say i'm running against pocahontas or crazy bernie.

i tell you, i got to hand it to bernie. i saw him up there the other day, that hair is getting whiter and whiter. i had obamacare done, except one guy at 2:00 in the morning went in and said, you know who that new leader is? maxine waters. very low iq, low iq. they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake disgusting news. >> i'll tell you what's disgusting. anyway joining us from outside the courtroom in virginia where paul manafort is, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney, plus another former u.s. attorney, the great joyce vance, assistant watergate prosecutor and jill wine-banks. in addition to the power house panel of lady lawyers we have phil rucker, white house bureau chief for the washington post. all of them, each and every one msnbc analyst and/or

contributor. great to have them here. phil, i want to start with you because you're in new york city. you get pride of place. i want to spend some time, if i had my way, we'd spend some time talking about the weirdness of donald trump talking about anyone else's hair. the thing about bernie sanders's hair getting whiter and whiter blows my mind. his hair is getting more and more orange. the thing i want to ask you about is donald trump's anxiety. he did not talk about paul manafort last night. he has started talking about paul manafort on twitter this week. how freaked out by paul manafort is donald trump? >> he's bothered by the paul manafort trial. he's bothered by the media coverage. he's been consuming it very closely, watching on cable news and he doesn't like the fact that manafort is being tied to trump. he feels like trump -- that he has nothing to do with paul manafort. he has nothing to do with the charges that are being discussed in this trial. and yet it's being covered -- >> can i ask you, how could he feel as though he has nothing to do with paul manafort? a man he's known for 30 years,

has been in business with 30 years, political consultant -- chairman of his campaign, lived in trump tower, how can he feel that way? >> he feels the charges under review right now in this case have nothing to do with the trump campaign of 2016, with the element of collusion. he believes he is innocent, trump does. and he thinks that this is -- that mueller is going after manafort so aggressively, specifically to try to embarrass the president, to try to take him down, to try to harm his presidency and that the media is complicit, that we're going along with it and it bothers him. it has him really angry and he's been telling that to his confidants, they've been of course telling that to us reporters. >> i know there is a danger in focusing too much on logic when it comes to donald trump. but if paul manafort's crimes have nothing do with donald trump, why would he be bothered about the fact paul manafort is being prosecuted for crimes that have nothing to do with him? >>s reality is he's bothered by the whole thing. he's bothered by mueller, he's

bothered by obstruction of justice, he fears his namesake son donald trump jr. could potentially have some jeopardy here. he wants it all over. that's why he tweeted two days ago, jeff sessions attorney general needs to end the russia investigation. >> barbara mcquade, you are down there on-site in alexandria observing the rocket docket in action. we have been waiting for rick gates all day. we gather at this moment he still has not appeared. in the absence of that, i want to ask you, what are the headlines out of that courtroom today, number one, and number two, at the end of this first week of the paul manafort trial, how much trouble is paul manafort in? >> well, today, we've heard solely from tax preparers. it's a little bit dry, but incredibly important evidence that's coming in. we learned about the failure to disclose foreign bank accounts. we learned about the understatement of income, for example, and we just had a witness admit under immunity that she assisted in reducing paul manafort's reportable income to save him about half a million dollars in taxes. so, i think that's today's information. and over the week we have seen,

in addition to the tax preparers, a parade of vendors who provided things like custom suits, luxury cars, home renovations, really lavish life-style and how those amounts were all paid with foreign bank accounts, not declared as income which it should have been. so, i think the government is putting in a strong case. it's very much a paper case so far, which is really helpful to a prosecutor because there's no cross-examination of paper. it comes in, it comes in clean. and, of course, the real drama will occur when rick gates takes the stand. we haven't seen it yet, we may see it today or next week. >> one of the things we learned yesterday was how broke paul manafort was when he joined the trump campaign. we learned a little of his credit score, for instance. it would have been hard for him to get a lease on a station wagon given what his credit score was in 2016. there's been a lot of dryness and a lot of paper. there was also some emotion in the court today. i believe you saw mrs. manafort

maybe shed a tear? >> yeah, you know, at one point when the tax preparer in very cold terms was describing the tax returns, describing the fact that paul manafort said he had no foreign bank accounts, at one point she left the courtroom and came back. at another point was dabbing her eyes. so, certainly when somebody's liberty is at stake as it is here, it is very dramatic and powerful. >> i'm virtually certain if my tax preparer were to testify that he knew nothing about my foreign bank accounts in cyprus, my wife would cry as well. i want to ask joyce vance a question which goes directly to one of the most kind of intriguing things about what's going on as we see all this play out, which is the way in which bob mueller is keeping some of this case to himself and then sending some of this case away. sending it to new york specifically. we've seen greg craig, ben weber and most importantly of course the michael cohen matter referred up to the southern district in new york. meanwhile, paul manafort has a

case that bob mueller wanted to handle on his own. i wanted to read you something from an aaron blake column in the washington post and get you to comment about it. he says, cohen like manafort is widely viewed as someone who could flip on trump and is under investigation for things apparently unrelated to the campaign. the obvious difference was manafort was a key figure in the campaign and had existing ties to russian interests that could conceivably be involved in the case's future. while cohen may know derogatory things about trump, manafort may be viewed as a potential collusion witness. so, joyce, give me a read on that. >> it's possible that that's the correct take. manafort could be far more central to collusion between the campaign and russia than the bank fraud and tax fraud prosecution he's currently going through would suggest. in other words, mueller could have indicted the leading edge perhaps to convince manafort to cooperate with him down the road. but manafort might still offer a great deal of help to mueller

discussing, for instance, the history of financial back and forth between trump and russia. he can talk, of course, about that important june 2016 meeting in trump tower where the campaign met with russia. he can talk about meetings in the seychelles. he may even be able to shed some light on this change in the republican party platform as it regarded ukraine. so, he can be very central on the topic of collusion. there is, of course, a much more benign possibility here, which is simply that mueller has limited resources. he and his team trust prosecutors in the southern district of new york. there are strong relationships there and they may be using the resources in that office to amplify what they have the capacity to do internally in the special counsel's office. >> joyce, i want to ask you a question, sort of a question i just asked phil, but from your perspective as you watched again, we're at the end of the week, it's friday, we've seen this first week of the manafort trial is almost over. if you're donald trump and you're donald trump's lawyer and

you're watching what's played out in that courtroom over the course of this week with paul manafort, are you worried as donald trump's lawyer? a, are you worried, and b, if you're worried, what are the things you've seen this week that as donald trump's lawyer you would be most concerned about? >> you've got to be deeply worried. like barb says, it's a paper case and you can't cross-examine paper. it says what it says. it's evidence that the jury will have back with them in the jury room when they deliberate. the other problem that emerges for manafort from this testimony is now a string of accountant but thenesses who say he either concealed his foreign accounts from them or they knew about accounts and helped him doctor his paperwork so it looks as though both on the tax fraud and the side and also the bank fraud side of this investigation, he gets convicted. and then trump has to be worried about what happens next. does manafort stay true, hoping he might get a pardon? or does he reach a point where

he decides it's in his best interests and his family's best interests for him to offer some form of cooperation to mueller. and then, john, there is still an even more attenuated situation here, which is that if manafort is convicted, even if he doesn't want to cooperate with mueller, mueller could then compel his testimony. he could take him into the grand jury and compel him to testify because he no longer has any criminal exposure. i've done that before with witnesses. it's never great. you'd always rather have them cooperating voluntarily, but it's certainly a possibility here. >> jill wine-banks, i want to ask you about two characters who are some of the most colorful characters in this drama, roger stone and manhattan madam, kristen davis who worked for roger stone for a period of time who has now reportedly met with special counsel mueller's team. roger stone put out a statement, very similar to ones he's put out in the past. kristen davis is a long time friend and associate of mine.

i'm the godfather to her 2-year-old son. she knows anything about the 016 election which i thought was the subject of this probe. i am confident she will testify truthfully if called upon to do so. tell me, jill, as you look at the mueller -- at mueller -- he's continuing to behave to roger stone, not interviewing stone to our knowledge at this point, bringing people before the grand jury or in to meet with his prosecutors. is roger stone destined to be indicted? >> it certainly looks like roger stone is a target, not just a person of interest. and i think that all of the facts that you've related show that that is why he hasn't been called in yet. he is probably the person named in the hacking indictment against the russians as the u.s. person because we know that he's the one who was in touch with guccifer 2.

so that would suggest that he has more knowledge about the hacking and could be a key figure in the collusion part of the case. he's also, of course, as you know, been testifying today on air about the wardrobe choices of manafort which is sort of amusing thing. he doesn't approve of his choice in clothing. and the only time i ever met roger stone, the first thing he said to me, i can't believe they booked me on two panels without enough time to change clothes. i'm going to have to wear the same suit twice. so i can understand why he's commenting on paul manafort's wardrobe choices. >> roger is a bit of a dandy, that's for sure. i want to get to the question with all three of you of our lawyers here on the panel and i'll come back to phil at the end. i want to talk a little about the question we've been talking about the last couple days which is the question of -- been talking about it for months frankly, the question of the interview and whether or not it's going to happen. nbc news is reporting that basically trump's team is

starting to realize there is no way he might -- he may be forced to answer bob mueller's questions about collusion. the legal team facing the reality he might struggle to fight a subpoena over collusion. he can fight a subpoena over obstruction of justice, stuff he's done as president but he wouldn't be able to fight a subpoena over the question of collusion. i ended with you, jill, i want to stay with you. is it your sense that that's basically the president's team, if they are coming to that conclusion, that they're right to come to that conclusion? there might be a fight on a subpoena over obstruction, but they would lose a fight over a subpoena on collusion, so therefore they're sort of cornered on that part of the investigation? >> i think they would lose on both issues. i think that the watergate nixon supreme court decision which says you can subpoena a president for documents would equally hold to you could subpoena the president for testimony. so i think they would lose on both issues. there is a crime exception to any executive privilege he might claim, so i don't think he's

going to win on that. but i also may be the only one who thinks that his testimony is, first of all, wouldn't be credible because look at how many lies he tells. he's up to, what, 16 a day, it was at 6 a day. why would we believe his testimony? and two, i think that he has been colluding and i'm sorry, i just used the word i said i'd never use. he's been conspireing with the russians, and he has been obstructing justice from the very beginning in public, in plain sight. and so i don't think you need to question him about what his intent was to show his corrupt intent. his corrupt intent is already blatantly clear to me. and so i don't think it's all that important that if i were robert mueller, i'm not sure i'd be wasting my time on a supreme court appeal of whether i could subpoena him or not. and it's clear that his lawyers have given him bad advice on a number of occasions and are just wasting time going back and forth. eight months of negotiating.

>> i'd say a large number of occasions. joyce, i think you believe that the president might be on slightly firmer ground fighting a subpoena over obstruction than he would be fighting a subpoena over collusion. explain. >> well, i'm not entirely sure that that's true, john, but what the dilemma that the president faces here is if he complies with the subpoena, he will undoubtedly have to relay some facts that would tend to incriminate him. we know that from what we've seen in the public domain. and so his lawyers will be faced with having him appear to testify and then asserting his 5th amendment privilege to avoid testifying, to avoid incriminating himself. and although congress -- i'll just say has not had the stiffest of spines when it comes to disciplining this president so far, i think it would be difficult for them in light of a president asserting his fifth amendment right to avoid testifying because he believes

his answers would incriminate him in a criminal case. it would be very hard for congress to ignore that. so, in many ways, mueller wins simply by issuing the subpoena and forcing the president to assert the fifth amendment whether he goes through litigation over the ultimate question here, which remains unanswered, can you require a sitting president to testify pursuant to subpoena. >> barbara, given the extant facts and the brilliant analysis of your two colleagues here, what is the best play for the president with respect to this question, with respect to how to handle this "end game" now, what we think is the end game of the matter of whether or not he's going to sit with bob mueller and on what elements of the investigation he might want to try to restrict it to? what's your play if you're advising donald trump at this point? >> i would tell donald trump you don't really have to testify until you get that subpoena. and so i think that they are telling one story to the public, that he really wants to testify and the lawyers aren't working it out, but that the truth is he

doesn't want to testify in front of a grand jury and he doesn't want to sit down with robert mueller for an informal interview. but he can continue the negotiation up until even after he receives that subpoena. even after he receives the subpoena, he could still workout an informal agreement for an interview. i think he's going to play chicken with robert mueller. this is really president trump's opportunity to tell his side of the story and so rather than engage in litigation, it may very well be that robert mueller stands down before he serves his subpoena. i think donald trump is going to play the waiting game until that happens. >> one word answers, does donald trump really want to do this interview? >> yes. >> is donald trump going to do this interview? >> potentially yes. >> wow. objection, okay, you're outside the conventional which is done this. i have to let these wonderful women go, the amazing barbara mcquade, astonishing joyce vance and remarkable jill wine-banks. when we come back so much for that show of force. it didn't take donald trump very long to stop on the message from his top officials sending the

alarm on the russia threat. why his latest rant about the so-called russia hoax might be one of his most unnerving so far. also ahead, trump's interesting -- that's a euphemism, interesting relationship with the truth took an even more bizarre turn last night. we'll show you the latest in the increasing pace of lies coming from this president. plus the attacks on the press. threats of government shutdown. is this really donald trump's midterm strategy? we'll talk about that in a second. i've always been about what's next. i'm still giving it my best even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm up for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. so what's next? seeing these guys. don't stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve

or abnormal bleeding. while taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer than usual for any bleeding to stop. seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. eliquis, the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor if eliquis is what's next for you. cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. the smoother the skin, the more comfortable you are in it. and now there's a new way to smooth. introducing new venus platinum. a premium metal handle boosts control... to reveal up to 100% smooth skin. venus when heartburn hits... fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. tum tum tum tum tums... smoothies... ...and introducing new tums sugar-free. -we're in a small room. what?!

-welcome. -[ gasps ] a bigger room?! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. what?! an unexpected ending!

in helsinki, i had a great meeting with putin. we discussed everything. i had a great meeting. i had a great meeting. we got along really well.

by the way, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. that's a really good thing. now we're being hindered by the russian hoax. it's a hoax, okay. i'll tell you what. they wanted me to walk up -- here's a podium here. they wanted me to walk up like this, son of a -- >> that was president trump doing a little boxing stuff and saying some stuff about russia last night at his campaign rally in pennsylvania. that was his first comment on the subject after five of his top intelligence officials held a pretty much unprecedented press conference yesterday in the white house briefing room to warn the american people about how dangerous the threat of russian election interference is to this country. there are no signs last night that donald trump shares his own advisors' concerns or supports their efforts on the russian threat or as jennifer rubin writes in the washington post, no matter how

hard coats, wray, bolton and others side step or try to put words in trump's mouth, trump never accepted he got elected with russian help and he is not about to make a personal all-out push to stop it in 2018. joining us now is msnbc news intelligence and national security reporter, the great ken dilanian. here at the table jesh mcintosh and the editor and msnbc contributor. phil rucker still at the table. so happy about that. phil, yesterday there's -- you got reporting yesterday all over the place. by reporting i mean white house sources telling reporters, the president wanted these five guys out here. he instructed them he wanted them to come out. we talked about it yesterday. ever suns then on the basis of his behavior and everyone's gut instinct, there's no way he sent those people out. they went out as an act of patriotism. donald trump was annoyed by that, he doesn't believe that. that's what everyone's gut tells them. his performance last night seems to back that up. what's the real deal? >> if he wanted them to come out

there here and deliver that warning to the american people if he thought that warning was important for the american people to hear, he would have delivered it himself, as well. he would have tweeted something, he could sent around a video clip of the press conference. he could have talked about it at his rally when he was talking extensively about president putin and what he called the russia hoax, but he never got into the actual threat facing the midterm elections here which is a serious enough security matter for his national security team to do that rare joint appearance in the briefing room. >> i want to play a little sound yesterday from the thing. we played it a lot yesterday. it was an extraordinary thing to see these five up there saying what they had to say. let's play it and hear what they had to say about 2016 versus 2018 and what that might have triggered in donald trump. >> russia attempted to interfere with the last election and continues to engage in malign influence operations to this day. >> our adversaries have showed they have the willingness and capability to interfere in our elections.

>> they stepped up their game big time in 2016. >> so these guys are saying that it was really bad in 2016. it might not be quite as bad in 201, but they interfered in 2016. the kind of implication there is maeb maybe they helped donald trump. isn't it possible, as you put your psychologist hat on, isn't it possible donald trump does not like that message because it undercuts pretty much everything he believes about his own victory that he did it on his own? >> it's possible. it's also possible it is now explicitly internally administration policy to speak out of both sides of your mouth on all sorts of controversial issues. it used to be that presidents would sometimes get ahead of policy and then it was the job of cabinet secretaries and stuff to walk them back, to quiet the -- to quiet things down, that kind of thing. this is an entirely different thing. we have people in the cabinet saying one thing, the president saying the opposite.

i don't believe that you can assume that that's not a deliberate strategy. it could be a deliberate strategy. in other words, they're on the record saying that the russians interfered and trump is on the record saying that it's all a hoax. and both things are true at the same time in this administration. no one has ever done this before. it doesn't mean people aren't going to be doing it now from time immemorial. >> of course, they can't both really be true though. >> they can't can be true. >> to be clear. >> they can be true in this regard. russia could have attempted to interfere with 2016 and not been all that effective in doing so, and therefore would not have had an effect on trump getting elected and could interfere and be interfering now. >> donald trump, if he admits that the russian story is not a hoax, therefore, bob mueller's investigation is warranted and justified, is it not that simple? he has to keep saying hoax. >> absolutely it's that simple. you cannot believe there is a russian threat and russians interfered in our election in 2016 and that the investigation

into that threat is a hoax. those two things are mutually exclusive in a logical mind. i am not sure that that is what we are dealing with when it comes to president trump. i'd like to think that extends to most of the administration. perhaps john is right. this is what they have decided they need to do in order to deal with the fact they can't control what their boss is going to say at any given moment. >> here's the thing of all the things that happened last night that was like the craziest and goes to the thing 2 things can't exist at the same time. let's play this out what donald trump said yesterday about vladimir putin and what vladimir putin actually said. >> i'll tell you what. russia is very unhappy that trump won. that i can tell you. but i got along great with putin. and everybody said, wow, that was a great -- that was great. >> president putin, did you want president trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that? >> translator: yes, i did, yes, i did. because he talked about bringing

the u.s./russia relationship back to normal. >> ken dilanian, j. pod has a flexible noeks notion how the space time continuum works and two truths can exist in them. i believe you would agree with me what we just saw right there was the president blatantly lying and the tape demonstrating it. am i right about that? >> i agree with you. but i also agree with john that it may very well be a deliberate administration policy or at least deliberate donald trump policy to put his intelligence officials out there and then go feed red meat to the base. don't forget, this wasn't just a warning to the american public. they were all under some pressure here. there's been a series of stories in recent weeks including our own at nbc news, pointing out there is no trump administration strategy to protect the midterm elections from interference. and there were also stories that some democratic senators had been hacked presumably by the russians and there have been stories about ongoing russian malign influence campaign. so the government is under a bit of pressure, i don't know if bill shine, the former fox news

executive was involved in helping put this thing together, to sort of explain what are you guys doing about this? and there were some blatant spin that -- and falsehoods perpetrated in that news conference by john bolton who asserted from the moment donald trump took office, he had a coherent strategy to counter foreign election interference. that just isn't true. it is true there are some patriots in that room, intelligence officials who want to do things, are doing things, they're not getting the lead in the oval office. >> it remains to be seen whether donald trump is going to empower the national security agency and u.s. cyber command to take substantive action to stop the russians. >> ken, one last thing here. it's not just that they're not getting leadership from the president. they are being directly contradicted and flouted hours after going in the white house briefing room. it seems like if you're going to take on this problem, you need presidential leadership. not only are we not getting presidential leadership, but you're getting something that looks like a split within this

administration that under any normal administration would cause one of those five people to quit. >> you're absolutely right. i have to catch myself sometimes. you sort of almost discount that. but it is very important and, in fact, many of those officials were asked very pointed questions by journalists confronted with these comments by donald trump. what could they say? they punted. chris wray, all he could say is the fbi is going to abide by our oath. that's an oath to the constitution, not donald trump. they know what's going on here. they're in a horrible position. they're trying to do their jobs to protect the country from what they call an information war by russia. that whole summit with putin was a slap in the face to their conclusion that russia attacked our democracy and is continuing to do so. >> we're running out of time. but i got to do this because it's a quote that includes one of my favorite movies of all time. put the buzzfeed story up to go back to podhoretz view. the headline says, remember trump's tweet that said he's

pulling out of the g-7 summit agreement in u.s. officials ignored. they're ignoring the tweets of the president one source said. it's like there's a reality tv president in his own bubble thinking he controls stuff. it's like the truman show. your argument is we have a truman show presidency, he's rattling around thinking he's doing stuff and the government essential is saying we're doing something totally different. whoever that guy is pay no attention to that guy behind the curtain. >> i don't know this isn't -- again, let's go to deliberate. he knows the administration has to say, acknowledge the reality that they are getting floods of information every day that there are cyber threats, efforts pushing, you know, from abroad. but he wants to make the case that the mueller probe is illegitimate. so he's doing that and he can say, you do this and then when it's inarguable that the russians are doing it, they can say, we told you. we had that great press conference. >> that is the most cynical thing i've heard in my life. i will say he's not the man behind the curtain.

i made a mistake. he's the man in front of the twitter machine. ken dilanian, you're awesome. have a great weekend. >> you, too, john. >> bash the media, jab the democrats, mix in some lies, rant about bob mueller and the crowd goes wild! but is that actually enough to win a midterm election? we'll answer that after this break. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands?

you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? most pills don't finish the job because they don't relieve nasal congestion. flonase sensimist is different. it relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion,

which most pills don't. it's more complete allergy relief. and all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. flonase sensimist helps block six key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. and six is greater than one. flonase sensimist. with pg&e in the sierras.x is and i'm an arboristan one. since the onset of the drought, more than 129 million trees have died in california. pg&e prunes and removes over a million trees every year to ensure that hazardous trees can't impact power lines. and since the onset of the drought we've doubled our efforts. i grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly it's heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. what guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future.

they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake disgusting news. anything i want they want to oppose. i just figured out how to do the wall. i'll say, i don't want to build a wall, and they'll insist on building it. i just figured that out right now. >> lather, rinse, repeat. it is a time tested strategy for donald trump, basht media analyst it on the people cheer. that is the basic formula, part of a larger strategery.

is throwing red meat at crowds in pennsylvania and beyond enough to maintain congress this november? philip bud of the washington post wrote about the crowd at the rally. one thing was very clear. the people there were there to see trump, not the people trump was stumping for. it's certainly the case that there were more overt supporters of qanon there than there were of republican gubernatorial candidate scott wagner or bar let that who was the reason for trump's visit. one guy with the lou sticker didn't want to talk. one woman in a scott walker -- former governor of wisconsin ran for president. joining us now, democratic congressman eric swalwell, member of the house intel and judiciary committees. at the table, my friend the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action nickell robey-coleman and host of politics nation. great to see you, rev. congressman, we almost always have you on this program and on

this network talking about russia and collusion, obstruction and judiciary and intel stuff. let me ask you about politics today. you're watching -- >> thank you. >> you're watching donald trump giving these speeches. they're kind of always variations on the same theme slightly different moving parts, different stanza, same chorus, same melody. is this the way you win in the current climate or if you're a democrat you're looking at this and saying, man, i hope he keeps doing this all the way to november? >> i think he's missing what most people care about and the president likes to say, no collusion, no collusion. and, john, the truth is when it comes to health care or extended paychecks or making sure he cleans up washington, he certainly has not colluded with thin to make that happen. i think that's what we should lead on and point out. i was just in western iowa for the last couple days with a candidate who is running against steve king. he's getting hundreds of people in western iowa, a place we never competed before. i've seen that across the country. i think that's the energy that's

going to help us win this november. >> for a little while, congressman, it looked like we could see in the polling earlier in the year we said blue wave, blue wave, it looked like things were tightening up in generic ballots, polls had republicans feeling a little more confident or not totally like they were totally doom struck. that has seemed to have swung back in the opposite direction in the last few weeks. republicans and democrats alike i talk to on capitol hill are bracing for the blue wave not denying it's coming. what is your sense of confidence level in democrats retaking control of the house and could it really be a giant tsunami or is this going to be a tight-run thing? >> we have the candidates for it to be a tsunami. i met many of them, about 60 of them are under the age of 40. they're veterans, small business owners, doctors, many women who have stepped up, 18 months ago never would have imagined they'd be running for congress.

but they see a wrecking ball president and they're inspired to want to help their community. i think we are expanding the map as far as where we can compete. when i talk to them, it's not about trump. one candidate said to me, he said in my district, donald trump is like smog. we know it's there, we breathe it, we see it every day. but that's not the focus. the best thing we can do is focus on health care, making sure that tax cuts help everyone and going after the corruption. so i think that's a winning message in each of these districts. >> rev, i have to ask you. i was on "morning joe" this morning and got asked this question right off the top. what do you think of trump's rally? it's getting old. this bit he's doing is getting tired and feel overly familiar. is this really the kind of thing, a lot of the public dynamics are against the republican party. this is going to rev up the 35% who love donald trump, but is this the way a lou barletta wins pennsylvania? a district hillary clinton won in 2016, is this the kind of message that motivates the

voters they needed? >> i don't think so. first of all, you've got deal with the motive. the two things he tries to discredit at all rallies is mueller and the press because he's trying to destabilize anything that cops out that may point to him being guilty of anything. so he wants to really bury in everyone's psyche, don't believe the press. don't believe mueller. so that's the motive. the act, though, is wearing thin. i said right after he was elected when i was a kid james brown, the singer, used to help my youth civil rights work. james brown told me the first time he took me to las vegas, the difference between a lounge act and an act that goes in the main room. he says you get attention in the lounge act. you do silly things because you're competing with people drinking and talking and paying you no mind. when you go in the main teenage, you've got to perform.

because they paid $100 a seat at that time. and they want to see a show. he's a lounge act. and after awhile, even the most intoxicated patron gets tired of the lounge act and goes to another act. >> so, here's what he should be saying. it's august, right? he's got 4% growth, he's got another good month of job creation, unemployment is at 3.9%. republicans are facing head winds going into november. this should be a morning in america, i'm delivering for you, the economy is going well. employment is humming. and what is he doing? he's yelling about the press and he's screaming about russia. it doesn't make political sense. and it suggests you use the lounge act comparison. i would say he's a pitcher, he's in the majors. he's got a fast ball. he needs to develop a curve and slider and he doesn't have a curve and slider. >> it makes political sense if the only thing he cares about is getting out of the mueller investigation and having questions about russia stopped. that's all he cares about. we can tell because the president has the bull horn of going around and doing these rallies which every president has. if you point back to obama, he

pulled that out a couple of times to pass health care, the stimulus, those were clearly his number one priorities. when trump uses the biggest megaphone that he has, he does so to protect himself from an investigation. >> but if he is trying to protect himself, the thing he most needs to protect himself from is impeachment, and that would mean trying to do what he could to keep a republican congress. >> he understands politics and what impeachment would entail. >> we're about to lose congressman swalwell. you're heading to oakland and throw out the first pitch. >> any advice, guys? >> do not pitch it, throw to the dirt. do not hit the bull on the side of the head. that's a bull durham joke. >> curve ball like donald trump. >> great to see you, congressman swalwell. have a graduate weekend. still ahead, donald trump's brazen lies is nothing new, one in particular might go down as the most gratuitous and appalling in some ways, one we have yet heard. we will explain right after this break. you're headed down the highway

when the guy in front slams on his brakes out of nowhere. you do, too, but not in time. hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges... how mature of them. for drivers with accident forgiveness liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ booking a flight doesn't have to be expensive.

just go to priceline. it's the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40%. just tap and go... for the best savings on flights, go to priceline. olay regenerist wipes out the competition; hydrating better than $100, $200 even $400 creams. with our b3 complex, beautiful skin doesn't have to cost a fortune. olay. you know how painful heartburn can be. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor recommended gaviscon. it quickly neutralizes stomach acid and helps keep acid down for hours. relieve heartburn with fast- acting, long-lasting gaviscon. and helps keep acid down for hours.

since joining ninehahi, ubmonths ago,o. my priority has been to listen to you... to cities and communities, and to my own employees. i've seen a lot of good. we've changed the way people get around. we've provided new opportunities. but moving forward, it's time to move in a new direction. and i want you to know just how excited i am, to write uber's next chapter, with you. one of our core values as a company, is to always do the right thing. and if there are times when we fall short, we commit to being open, taking responsibility for the problem, and fixing it. this begins with new leadership, and a new culture. and you're going to see improvements to our service. like enhanced background checks, 24/7 customer support, better pickups, and ride quality, for both riders, and drivers. you've got my word, that we're charting an even better road for uber, and for those that rely on us every day. ♪

highways would take 21 years to get approved. we have it down to two years and it's going to be one year very shortly. u.s. steel is opening up seven plants. i'll tell you what. russia is very unhappy that trump won. that i can tell you. >> i raised $44 billion last year. and you know, i don't know if you know, nato funding was going down. chain migration. and this was the schumer deal. schumer wanted this. republicans just passed the biggest tax cuts in the history of our country. >> okay, so every one of those statements was false, like provably false, demonstrably false. some were outright screaming raging lies. many came from the speech last night. lying and getting away with it has been trump's thing, his late motif of his campaign and political life. people are starting to ask

whether we've entered into an entirely new era of trump lies. are we in full-fledged gaslight territory. here's how susan glasser talked about trump's lies in the new yorker. the fact trump historically unpopular with the american public as a whole has retained the loyalty of more than 80% of republicans, the group at which his lies seem to be aimed, means we are in for much more. it may determine if trump is impeached by a newly democratic congress. at this point, the falsehoods are as much of trump's political identity as his floppy orange hair and the make america great slogan. phil, rev, jess, john, you're all still here. i want to focus in a second on a very specific lie. but just to the table here. is it getting worse? it feels like it's getting worse to me and more gratuitous and more disgusting. maybe i'm some kind of -- what do they call them? snowflakes. >> it's actually statistically getting worse. at the washington post we have a fact checker that keeps track of all the falsehoods, the claims, misstatements from trump.

he just passed the 4,000 mark this month. >> that's a lot. >> 4,000 in his presidency. but the pace is increasing. in the last two months, he's raised about a thousand i believe. that's exponentially faster paced than his presidency which means he's much looser with the facts and much more willing to tell a lie. >> it's possible moore's law applied to chips, it applies to his lies. >> we've become accustomed to it. there was the standard, when i was going to school, everyone thought george washington never told a lie. we've gone from that to just counting and needing to have data collectors because it's so many of how many lies the president told. that is not a forward movement for the country's culture. >> where it gets truly insidious is when it's combined with the attacks on the press. if the president says under normal circumstances, should a president say an untruth, we could disagree and point to an

objective source of fact like nbc, like "the new york times" to talk about what is actually going on here. combining his lying with his undermining of the press, means that you're losing the objective source of fact for this 80% of republicans that still tend to believe him. there's no way to reach them at this point. if he says something is true, there is no way for me on the other side of the aisle to have a conversation with my republican family members and say, look, here is where it says it's false because he's also undermined that source. >> i see john over here struggling to restrain his contrarian instincts. >> i think you have to look at this in two ways, one of which is he's getting worse, the lying is getting worse, and reverend sharpton is correct that we are -- we're through -- we're across the bridge into something new, which is to say are democrats really going to want to field in 2020 somebody who is, you know, righteous and proper and won't go down the

terrible road that trump has gone down? no. what they're going to want is their own trump. they want somebody who can go toe to toe with him properly and not let him get away with it and let somebody lie for them. so that's the dangerous road we're going down. the other thing, though, you have to understand about republican support. it's not that they necessarily believe what he's saying, but they don't like you. they don't like you and they don't agree with you and they're not going to give you the satisfaction of telling a pollster that they don't support trump. you're the enemy to them, not the press. >> i just -- >> i'm sorry, i don't mean that. i just mean liberal democrats, the polarization of the people -- >> we all agree -- >> none of us are alike. no one likes any of us. >> what i'm saying what they do like, they don't like liberals and they aren't going to give pollsters any grounds on which to say that trump is unpopular

with them. >> so i've got to cut you off just for one second because i want to get in the way back machine. the reality is we all agree that it's getting worse. but the truth is there's a trump lie that goes back to the very beginning of the administration. in 201710 at the joint session of congress, i want to play the sound and we'll talk about this particular lie and what's happened with it in the last day or so. >> according to data provided by the department of justice, the vast majority of individuals convicted of terrorism and terrorism-related offenses since 9/11 came here from outside of our country. >> okay. so that's a very specific thing. he just claimed there was data from the department of justice that proved the thing he just said. ben wittes heard this and said that doesn't sound right to me and started a process of doing the research. he went to the justice department and said i want to

see this data that proves what the president said and the justice department has come back and said there are no responsive records that the justice department has, no data that supports what trump said in that speech. so to me there is something kind of special about that. your first big speech as president of the united states in the well of the house of representatives, the biggest speech you're going to give as president to that point. to go out and not just tell a lie but cite the department of justice and say there are statistics to support one of the most controversial parts of your early administration, which is the travel ban. now it turns out that it's totally made up and that the justice department is willing to come out and say that it's totally made up. this to me strikes -- maybe i'm again a snowflake. but this strikes me as kind of extraordinary. no? >> no, i think it is extraordinary. and i think the danger is it feeds into his anti-immigrant profiling of people from other

places to say this and to act as though the justice department in some way has certified this. it feeds into this kind of xenophobia that he represents, which makes it dangerous. and before we discount that a lot of the republicans that are listening to him are saying, well, i don't necessarily believe him but i don't like you, i agree with john podhoretz that they don't like us for different reasons, but he's winning everyone he endorses in the primaries despite the lies because he's hitting the xenophobia and the bigotry on things that a lot of them support. and that i don't think we want to come to terms with. >> on the basis of your reporting what you know about donald trump's psyche, what is it that makes him think that he can get away with that lie. dr. house used to say that, everybody lies. but to be able to do that at a joint session and cite statistics that simply do not exist, what makes him think he can get away with that.

>> i mean he's lied throughout his life, throughout his career and not really faced consequences. he also creates sort of an alternate reality in his mind to the point where he thinks it's true. if he repeats it enough time and he hears it, reinforced from his advisers enough times, he starts to believe that's the reality and you see it on issue after issue after issue. >> can i be a snowflake? i was a speechwriter 30 years ago in the reagan white house. if you had an idea how rigorously every single fact was checked. >> we'll be right back. (burke) abstract accident. seen it. covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

i've been making blades here at gillette for 20 years. there's a lot of innovation that goes into making america's #1 shave. precision machinery and high-quality materials from around the world. nobody else even comes close.

now starting at $7.99. gillette. the best a man can get. i couldn't catch my breath. it was the last song of the night. it felt like my heart was skipping beats. they said i had afib. what's afib? i knew that meant i was at a greater risk of stroke. i needed answers. my doctor and i chose xarelto® to help keep me protected from a stroke. once-daily xarelto®, a latest-generation blood thinner significantly lowers the risk of stroke in people with afib not caused by a heart valve problem. warfarin interferes with at least 6 of your body's natural blood-clotting factors. xarelto® is selective, targeting just one critical factor. for afib patients well managed on warfarin, there is limited information on how xarelto® compares in reducing the risk of stroke. don't stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. while taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. it may increase your risk of bleeding

if you take certain medicines. get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. before starting, tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures and any kidney or liver problems. learn all you can to help protect yourself from a stroke. talk to your doctor about xarelto®. to help protect (burke)f from a stroke. abstract accident. seen it. covered it.ce music) we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

now, this is not something we would normally cover here at "deadline white house" but nicolle is away, it's friday and it reminds us of a simpler time before there was only one story taking up ought the news on the air waves. this massive herd of goats wreaked havoc in boise, idaho. it got a lot of attention online. residents were unsure where they came from. there's a business nearby that dispatches the goats to clear weeds and keep plants from growing in certain areas. the goats had somehow escaped. authorities were able to wrangle them. for me, this is the thing i miss about jon stewart. phil, where do you look for your moment of zen? >> i think if nicolle were watching she's like them too.

>> actually all of you guys, phil rucker, reverend al, jess, john, you guys are all goats of a way and my goat we mean the greatest of all time. that does it for this hour. i was in for nicolle wallace. she will be back next week and you all will be glad. home alone. let's play "hardball." well he is elected to run the country, head the u.s. government and speak for the american people yet gives the impression of a guy alone. even from his own staff, the cabinet he appointed. this is the world of donald trump. we know him from his tweets rather than executive leadership. tweeting from his bedroom while strangers run things down stairs and in the government agencies.