that wraps up this hour of msnbc live. i've been in for alex witt. see you at 2:00 eastern time. right now, time for "a.m. joy" with my colleague joy reid. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the

30,000 e-mails that are miss in. i think you will be rewarded mightily by our press. i have nothing to do with russia, i said that putin has much better leadership qualities than obama, but who doesn't know that? >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." donald trump can't keep his little twitter fingers still and he might have stumbled into a complete game changer in russia gate and the infamous trump tower meeting. trump tweeted this morning "this was a meeting to get investigation on an opponent, totally legal and done all the time in politics. it went nowhere. i do not know about it. well, that significantly contradicts a written statement from trump on behalf of donald trump jr. about the purpose of that meeting which we were told

was the adoption of russian childre children. >> when you look at a meeting that took place over a year ago, what rule or regulation? nobody has pointed to one. >> let's go to jonathan capeh t capehart, david jolly and joining me by phone, msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos and joyce vance. i'll get to the lawyers in a second. i want to give you a chance to react that donald trump has tweeted out a contradiction to his own previous statements about what that trump tower meeting was about. >> what we have here is another example of the president of the united states willfully lying. the other thing is he has a tendency to do two things. one, hide in plain sight so by saying i'm not worried about my son don jr., that means he's

really worried about his son don jr. given the story in the "washington post" today. this only makes sense if you understand the president of the united states, that donald trump plays primarily in the court of public opinion. these tweets play very well with his base. these tweets are landing in the court of law public opinion has no sway. the rule of law has sway and as you said, this is a game changer because he has now contradicted himself and put himself squarely in the middle of that june 16, 2016 meeting, where we've been trying to -- everyone's been trying to figure out did he know about this meeting, did don jr. tell him about this meeting? the president is now to my mind made it clear he knew something about it. >> just to tee up for those who

haven't read the "washington post" story, part of that is that donald trump has become enamored of the new talking point from his tv lawyer rudy giuliani that collusion is not a crime so they have gone from no collusion, no collusion, no collusion to collusion isn't a crime and give us more about what's reported about his mood and raging. >> he privately has been raging about what's happening vrnl he's upset about the news coverage, about why isn't he getting more credit for what he views as the good works he's done and as the "post" reported on friday on the front page, 4,229 lies in the first six month of the this year alone. the reason he's not getting the favorable news coverage is because the press spends an inordinate amount of time reporting what he says and at the same time fact checking what he says. >> let me read from the story. this is the "washington post."

"trump has confided to friends and advisers he is worried the mueller probe could destroy the lives of what he calls innocent and decent people, namely donald trump jr. under scrutiny by mueller for his role organizing a june 2016 meeting at 20trump tower with russians promising dirt on hillary clinton. the president does not believe his son purposefully broke the law but is fearful nonetheless that trump jr. may have wandered into legal jeopardy." let me bring in joyce vance and a about that in just a moment. donald trump is now saying whereas his previous denials said -- this was from the "new york times" a year ago -- he told -- according to the "new york times" trump said we primarily discussed a program about the adoption of russian children that was active and popular with american families years ago and was since ended by the russian government but it was not campaign and there's no follow-up. that was trump jr. in a statement dictated in part written by his father on air

force one. what does it say to you, joyce, that the president is now contradicting that previous statement. >> he's made a confession. he said the meeting was a miting to get information on opponens s and though he didn't say it was a meeting to get information from russia, we know that, and that's precisely the conduct that's illegal under u.s. statu statute it's illegal to solicit, accept or receive a contribution or donation from a foreign citizen. so now we have the president saying at least the three people from his campaign who were in the meeting, his son don jr., paul manafort and his son-in-law jared kushner were involved in sliz ting this information. we know the campaign received assistance in the form of e-mail and the only open question after this e-mail is whether the

president knew about this meeting in advance, whether he signed off because he's sure enough to cover it off of the fact with the story you just references he dictated while on air force one. >> what you had a year ago, again, donald trump the president of the united states that ended up in the "new york times" that he helped to krafrt in which they said the meeting that took place in trump tower between donald trump jr., jared kushner and his son-in-law, paul manafort his then campaign chairman and russian lawyer tnaa talia vessels vessel in the -- veselnitskaya, we know that the magnitsky act target russian oligarchs. when you hear adoption, hear magnitsky. donald trump has said anyone

would have taken such a meeting. he said the "new york times" statement wasn't given to a court meaning there was no legal obligation to be truth informal that statement. however, this morning he still is contradicting that statement. is that a legal problem for donald trump or donald trump. >> >> as is often the case during this administration, i find myself studying a tweet by the president like it's a religious text and as i read this taex i can see it capable of more than one interpret decontamination because trump said this was a meeting to get information on an opponent and i do not know about it but when was that lack of knowledge? in fact, the interpretation that is most favorable and i'm thinking like a defense attorney here, the one most favorable to donald trump would be if he

didn't know about it until yesterday. if that's the case that means he authorized or approved of statements that were false which means that somebody either duped him or maybe he did know. so this tweet is very problematic because it contradicts what's been said before but depending on the timeline interpretation, and it's vague as to when he did not know about it, it could be either a worse problem or a super worse problem. >> let me put this up for our audience again and again. we don't normally read his tweets any more on this show because it isn't that edifying for the audience to do so but in this case this is a significant statement so i'm going to read it. this is what donald trump was up tweeting this morning. from vacation. "fake news reporting a complete fabrication" we don't need to read that part. "i'm concerned about the meeting my wonderful son donald had in trump tower. this was meeting to get

information on an opponent, totally legal and it went nowhere. i do not know about it." let me bring in david jolly, former republican congressman from florida because what donald trump seems to be doing now is adopting the communications strategy of his television lawyer rudy giuliani because the line from republicans is that collusion is not a crime. so he's gone from no collusion to collusion is not a crime. i wonder how what we call the committee to defend the president reacts to a shift in the president's explanation to i did it but it isn't criminal to the meeting was about getting dirt on hillary clinton. >> sure, it's the final chapter in the gaslighting of the trump base and the republican party. you will see no reaction from the republican party in this case. joy, look at what happened from the historical and political perspective. the president of the united states says my son met in my building with russian agents who wanted to influence the

election. that is a declarative by the president this morning. legally whether or not there was collusion or not if you take a less conservative view, we see a president continuing to become mare careless in his defense and what begins to come on the table is questions of public corruption and honest services. there may be as joyce said a contributi contribution, an inlegal contribution and the final thing i would say, you read a statement, a tweet from the president suggesting the president is concerned about good people getting hurt, that is the last chapter in a criminal conviction, when they ask for empathy, that these are good people who didn't know they were doing wrong. >> i want to play for the audience jay sekulow, who's another one of donald trump's attorney, a tv attorney on abc's this is week with george stephanopoulos. he's asked why the explanations for this trump tower meeting keep changing and here's what

jay sekulow had to say. >> i was in the case a couple weeks and as my colleague rudy giuliani said, i had bad information at that point. i talked about that before. that happens when you have cases like this. >> does that happen when you have cases like this, joyce vance, to say they are misleading the court in the sense, as jonathan called the court of public opinion, because they had bad information from their client. will they fly? >> no, that doesn't happen. it shouldn't happen, i would put in the the category of lame excuses for inexcusable behavior, joy. >> and if in fact donald trump as you said just made an admission that the trump tower meeting was not about adoption in a vague sense, magnitsky act, but that was an attempt to gather dirt on hillary clinton, if donald trump is is admitting

it was a meeting about gathering dirt, what would be the crime theoretically. >> this is one of the easiest crimes in this entire range of election-related crimes to prove, it's the crime of a u.s. person soliciting or accepting sis answer t assistance from a foreign national and we have foreign nationals connected to the russian government, although the law doesn't make that distinction, it's still a more compelling case so trump has cast himself in the role of a witness against his son, his son-in-law and former campaign manager who he is saying went into a meeting where their goal was to solicit something of value from russians that they could use to assist them in the electi election. there might be other crimes, we've had the suggestion of bribery or honest services fraud. those crimes could only have

taken place after trump was in office so not as early as the trump tower meeting but there is a full range of what i'll characterize as public corruption type claims that we could be looking at as a result of this series of actions. >> danny, as a defense attorney, how much of a mess is donald trump creating for his legal team this morning? >> building on what joyce said, of those elements, the violation of the federal election law, perhaps the only one that is arguably hazy would be anything of value. people think of assistance as a bag of cash or something tangible but it's clear under the law that -- and this has come up in the past, canada wanted to donate pamphlets to aid in an election, that violates the law so it's not a stretch to say data or information or e-mails would be considered anything valuable. it doesn't have to be a big of

ill-gotten cash. and something like this, dirt on an opponent would probably fit -- to some it would absolutely fit the definition of anything of value so with this admission, assuming that information on an opponent equals anything of value satisfying the criminal statute then you could make an argument with just a few sentences donald trump admitted either to a crime by his -- himself or at minimum by those around him arguably. >> and david jolly, i'm old enough to remember when republicans used to fulminate about president clinton, vice president al gore, when they talked about chinese donors, renting out the lincoln bedroom when they had a sense it was corrupt to deal with a foreign government or entity when it came to elections. what happened to the republican party?

>> it's hypocrisy of historical proportion. we have corruption in plain sight. whether it crosses the line of criminal culpability we will find out but this is a president who still has not released his tax returns. we assume there is exposure to people who could have leverage over him and he could settle that question today but refuses to do so. i think one of the things we're seeing in the escalation of the president's rhetoric is we are entering a window where he's under serious consideration as to whether or not have rosenstein dismissed and mueller dismissed. congress is out for two months, now is the time the president might move. >> this is a big development. jonathan, david, and danny will join us later in the show. joyce vance, thank you for your time. appreciate you calling in. up next, donald trump goes to lebron's home state but he doesn't even mention his krit schi -- criticism of the king.

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hours after donald trump attacked nba superstar lebron james on twitter he went to james' home state of ohio to prop up the republican candidate on tuesday's special election. but true to form for a president who talks tough but backs down from confrontation, not once during his 70 minute rambling speech did trump mention lebron or repeat his attack on cnn

anchor don lemon. instead, he trotted out the same old campaign hits attacking congresswoman mackshi congresswoman maxine waters and the news media. why didn't he go after james? perhaps because of the backlash. nba legend bill russell, current nba stars like steph curry, carl anthony towns and bradley beal all voiced their support of james. nba hall of famer and charlotte hornets owner michael jordan who was mentioned in trump's tweet also offered his support. even first lady melania trump issued a tacit rebuck to her husband. her spoke woman saying in part, "it looks like lebron james is working to do good things on behalf of our next generation and just as she always has, the first lady encourages everyone to have an open dialogue about issues facing children today." even if he didn't dare repeat in the front of his rally fans, trump's attack on lebron james and other prominent african-americans is another sign he plans to use his familiar slate of dog whistles to try to keep republicans in

power. >> they talk about the elite. the elite. do you ever see the elite? they're not elite. you're the elite. you are the elite. [ cheers and applause ] you're smarter than they are. you make bigger incomes, you've got everything going. >> back with me, david jolly, joining now politics editor for theroot.com jason johnson and nationally syndicated columnist connie schultz. donald trump went to ohio because the republican party is worried. there's a race there with a republican who should be well ahead in ohio's 12th congressal district. >> there's a guy named troy balderson running in that district against a democrat named danny o'connor and if you look at the poll, it's neck in neck except it should be like seven points for the republican. what's going on in ohio 12?

>> it looks like danny o'connor could win this but it's already a loss for the republicans in that way and they know it. they think they'll make a big statement about this if he preveals, the republican candidate, but they've lost the argument. which is why he's there. it was interesting that they moved the venue, you know, to a gymnasium which was smaller according to the reports i saw this morning than the original place. they wanted to make sure there were no empty seats because donald trump hates that and i'm glad you quickly acknowledged what's going on with the attacks on lebron james because it's racist. he went after a black athlete, again, he went after a black newsman and then he went after maxine waters again and in each case he refers to their intelligence and calls them in different ways calls them stupid and it's important that we acknowledge that, at this point, that that is what the president

is doing. >> what is he saying about his own voters if he thinks it's a tactic that will get his base out? >> he is appealing to a certain percentage of his base. but i've decided i'm not going to mock trump supporters because this responsibility lays with the president and he is working them up, mobbing them up, he wants them to attack journalists, it's only a matter of time. we saw from the tweet this morning, he wants to endanger the lives of journalists and i hear the criticism from some, now you care, journalists, because you're the target of population and that's a fair critici criticism but when the president is going after journalists he's going after america because specials should be able to count on journalists to hold the president accountable. he's making this so personal and is not listening to his critics

in the white house who are telling them you must stop calling journalist the inenemy the people. >> donald trump tweets a good game but when it comes to who he's willing to vocally attack, he will go after women, he's gone after maxine waters over and over and over again at these rallies, he didn't, actually, though mention lebron james at that rally. let me play a clip in which he went after republicans of a certain kind. listen. >> how do you get 100% of anything? i you always have somebody, i don't like trump, i don't like our president. he destroyed my career. i only destroyed their career because they said bad things about me and you fight back and they go down the tubes and that's okay. >> sorry, i wanted to also play donald trump going after congresswoman maxine waters at the same rally. take a listen. >> okay, never mind. jason, what he didn't do is go

after king james in his home state, right because the presidents is a coward. he attacks people he thinks he can get away with only in siafe environments. at net roots there are shirts people are staying that is "don't test the waters." he would never say this to maxine waters in person. i'm the last person to say there aren't some racist white people who hate lebron james. but at the end of the day the president seldom has the strong go after individuals who can fight back where there may be boos in the crowd so he'll go after lebron james through twitter but he won't run the risk in a crowd because there may be people who boo or people in lebron james jerseys. that's how this president operates, he's a coward and a punk and he doesn't know how to truly confront people.

also, he'll go after lebron but not gregg popovich. he'll go after mackshine waxinet not steve kerr. he won't go after eminem. he's afraid of going after white people because that will expose how racist his attacks on black people are. >> we have that attack of donald trump on maxine waters. let's play that really quick. >> they're talking about this blue wave. i don't think so. i don't think. so mackshine waxine waters is l. maxine, she's a real beauty. maxi maxine. a seriously low iq person. seriousl seriously. >> same question, david jolly. donald trump feels quite flee to go after a black woman, esteemed congresswoman by california by name at his rallies and cause his audience to taunt her but he did not have the dourj renew his

attacks on lebron james. what do you make about that? >> donald trump's a weak man with no courage so he would not attack lems in front of a you in ohio but on the issue of race and donald trump's view of race and his manipulation of the social construct, you can draw a direct thread from his comments about the central park five to his comments about maxine waters and it what's disheartening is that today's republican party cheers that on. one of the things we've learned from donald trump is in politics today, many leaders follow policies. many republicans have been happy to abandon the policies they believed in the past ten years to follow a leader like donald trump. there's no greater contrast to what donald trump had to say last night than to barack obama's 2004 speech where he talked about being one america. not a black or white america, conservative, progressive, but one america.

we have gotten so far away from that and as democrats continue to have a family conversation about their message in november in 2020, yes policies are important but bring us somebody that can unite the country and those medium information voters, those independent voters who are suffering from anxiety that is donald trump, they will move to the blue column and we will see that blue wave. >> and he also attacks women, whether it's maxine waters or other women in politics, at some point does that erode his white female base. >> i think what's eroding his female white base is the family separation separations. i'm seeing in the my reader mail that it was the last straw for a lot of women because it involved children. it was interesting the first lady made clear she would like visit lebron's school. nobody knows a marriage like

that two people in it but i'm glad i'm not in it. we have to pay close attention to language coming out of this white house. he's always hated women. there will always be men who hate women, we've known that. i've been a columnist since 2002, i've always gotten a certain percentage of mail from angry white men. my husband jokes it's my gift, i draw it out but there isn't a single woman in n ameriamerica writes her opinion and gets that hate mail regardless of her party affiliation. some men can't believe we get that real estate. >> amane. coming up, the political battle over the south is about to get real.

up next, the deep red south may be about to turn purple. we'll break down the new political civil war. stay with us. oh!

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>> blue wave? i don't think so. if the democrats get in they're raise your taxes, you'll have crime all over the place, people pouring across the border. why that would be a blue wave? i think it could be a red wave. really i think it should be a red wave. >> if a blue wave does materialize in november, it could crest in what used to be the most politically predictable region of the country -- the south. tennessee and georgia have dems ahead in early polls, tennessee for the u.s. senate in georgia for what could be an historic governor's race while in texas

beto o'rourke is making ted cruz squirm. back with me is mayor tomlinson and kaitlin thompson. stacy abrams, incredibly enough, polling within the margin of error but two points ahead of brian kemp. that's a gravis poll. does sta say thtacey abrams hav realistic shot of winning the race? >> absolutely. all of the democrats are polling ahead of their republican opponents and we have a strong candidate for attorney general in charlie bailey. we have cracked the code on how to win back the south.

we're no kansas or oklahoma, we have not been that red for that long, by the way, we just lost the governor's mansion in 2002. thereafter it took a couple years for the senate and house to switch over to republican control so people are out there that remember voting for democrats and remember when democrats were in control of both houses and the governor's mansion but what we've learned is that democrats can turn out those voters in urban areas, atlanta, columbus. we know how to do that but we've ignored democrats in south georgia and south georgia is a democratic area. we know from polling dozens and dozens of counties in our black belt -- that refers to the agrarian area of rich soil, not to color of anyone's skin -- but dozen and dozens of those counties are democratic counties. we've given them no love for many, many years, stacy abrams is humping it through those

area we've lost ten hospitals under republican control and so these are folks that understand that government is a partner in their prosperity. >> staying with you. it is health care helping democratic candidates come back in georgia? >> expanding medicare has a 73% approval rating in georgia. that holds solid for this area in south georgia that many analysts write off as being the rural red. that suspect true. they want expansion of medicare. also trump's so-called tax cut plan obstruction of justice has a 39% approval rating in georgia and trump himself is floating if

you average the polls 40% approval rating in georgia so i think people are painting with too broad a red brush when they try to make georgia sound like a deep red state, it isn't. but people in these areas are looking for prosperity and the opportunity for economic development which you cannot have if you don't have basic financial infrastructure, infrastructure like hospitals, access to health care. and democrats are speaking directly to those issues. republicans, on the other hand, and we have drawn, fortunately, for democrats, a pretty weak slate of republican candidates. kemp has spent millions of dollars and months telling us he doesn't like brown people. well 46% of the active registered voters in georgia are non-whit non-white. >> let's go to his ads. the scuttlebutt was that the republican party writ large

would have preferred to have the other guy but donald trump preferred kemp, kemp won. here's one of his ads about immigration. >> i'm brian kemp. i'm so conservative i blow up government spending. i own guns that no one is taking away. my chain saw is ready to rip up some regulations. i got a big truck just in case i need to round up criminal illegals and take them home myself. yup. i just said that. i'm brian kemp. if you want a politically incorrect conservative, that's me. >> kate, is that going to work in a state like georgia that seems to be getting more purple? >> it works in the primary as you see from the numbers and georgia, president trump only won georgia by 5% so mgeorgia i new to the republican party as far as the changeover from democratic to republican rule

but i would caution you that nathan deal is a popular governor and a lot of these southern states, we've got governors races so republicans won't lay down and let them roll all over them. florida is the most fertile ground. we'll see. we have to distance ourselves from these primaries. everybody knows your base helps you get to the party but the people who didn't vote in either primary matter and how the parties will be defined closer to november. republicans have a high hill to climb right now. just history tells you that we have trouble coming in november. >> jason johnson, you have been a georgia skeptic as far as the democratic party but which state seems to be the most fertile ground. tennessee, the democrat is ahead of marsha black bern.

>> bred -- bredesen is going to beat blackburn and bob corker is saying out saying i can't run against this guy, he's too good. second i'm moving less out of my cynicism column. i have to mention georgia. look, the republican governors' association just dumped $700,000 into this race. you don't do that if you think you have this locked up. you have brian kemp, i was talking to representatives here this weekend. brian kemp is not popular with a lot of suburban voters. there's a conflict of interest with brian kemp being the republican gubernatorial nominee and also secretary of state. he shut down the online voter registration for georgia for 30

hours for maintenance this weekend, a week end where people are going out to register people to vote. you don't do that unless you're a vote suppressor or you're nervous. i think tennessee and georgia are the places we may see a huge flip. >> david jolly, you're a former florida republican congressman. we are looking at the spectacle where democrats could win the senate race and lose in florida because the incumbent, bill nelson, is behind. >> that could be the anomaly in a blue wave. rick scott is an incredibly disciplined campaigner, stays away from the media, spends his own money. bill nelson has not had a tough race in 18 years, probably, but reports are he's about to spend and spend big. he knows this is going to be a big race one interesting thing to come out of florida politics. glen graham is disciplined on the message of ending 20 years of one party control. she's seeing something in the numbers. you have the progressive in andrew gillam saying i'm the

only non-millionaire in the race. then you have the billionaire class coming in, jeff green spending $40 million in two months to try to win this. lightning round, one word answer, the state that will be the most surprising on election night. david? >> i hope texas, beto. >> not going to be any surprises. the republicans will do pretty well. >> that's a multiple word answer. jason johnson, state that will be most surprising? >> nobody likes ted cruz. i think beto o'rourke pulls it off. >> mayor thompson? most surprising state? >> it will be georgia it won't surprise me but it will surprise katon. >> a little shade in the panel. thank you guys have been much. in our next hour, trump is calling the press the enemy of the people this morning and

contradicting his earlier explanation of the trump tower meeting his son had with the russian lawyer. more news coming up. the list goes on. how about a discount for long lists? gold. mara, you save our customers hundreds for switching almost effortlessly. it's a gift. and jamie. -present. -together we are unstoppable. so, what are we gonna do? ♪ insurance. that's kind of what we do here.

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proactive administration regarding urban america and faith-based community and i'll be 60 years old in december. to be honest, i'm going to say this at the table. this is the most pro black president we've had in our lifetime. >> well, that sentiment expressed by cleveland sterile scott during a meeting between president trump and several black pastors seems especially off key after president trump's attacks on lebron james. now dozens of high profile black pastors have written a scathing open letter to their trump loving colleagues calling them cheerleaders with a collar. they write in part, it was unsettling and upsetting to witness the meeting with you, our moral leaders, and one of the most amoral persons ever to occupy the white house. reverend tracy blackman is an executive minister.

it's always great to see you. and this letter which was delivered to my former outlet, the grio, is pretty scathing. you and your colleagues write, it was errantly exclaimed that this is probably going to be the most pro black president we've had. was he being pro black while building his political platform which was fueled by racism? was he being pro black when he equivocated in charlottesville that left one person dead and dozens injured declaring there was violence on both sides. you were grabbed off the air suddenly as you witnessed that violence firsthand. why in your view did those pastors go to the white house and sing the praises of a president who praised the people who did that as very fine people? >> good morning, joy. thank you for having me on and i am interested in answering that

question. i do want to say that i signed that letter as a pastor and as an independent person, not speaking on behalf of the denomination but speaking from my spirit and my soul. dr. maya ang lelo reminds us wh people show you who they are you should believe them the first time. our current president has showed us who he is in terms of people of color long before he entered the oval office. in 1973 at the age of 26 when mr. trump was then president of the trump organization he defended the racially discriminatory housing practices of his father that were designed to keep black tenants from renting apartments on trump properties. in 1989 after five black and latino teenagers from harlem were arrested and accused of assaulting a white woman in central park, mr. trump used

$85,000 of his own money to launch an attack against those boys who were ultimately found innocent with dna and to this day he has never apologized or rescinded his remarks about those young men. for five years the man who became the 45th president of the united states used his fame and fortune to launch a vicious attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the nation's first black president, president barack obama by willfully and knowingly promulgating a lie about his citizenship. he was forced during his campaign to finally admit that he knew all along that barack hussein obama was a citizen and there was no issue with his birth certificate but he's yet to apologize. mr. trump's choice for attorney general for the united states is

a man who opposed the voting rights act and who denied a federal judgeship because of his racism. mr. trump is a man who refers to mexicans as rapists, enforced targeted bans on muslims in this country, continues to call for the building of a wall only on the southern border of the united states and has referred to entire african countries in profane language that i won't even repeat here. this president has completely denounced the race -- has refused to denounce the racist anti-american actions of the recent resurgence of white nationalists. you saw that in charlottesville, you covered that, joy. >> yeah. >> and he claimed there were good people on both sides. >> right. >> i have to ask you though, pastor, i want to play for you another signator from the reverend in baltimore and ask if you agree with the sentiments about not just donald trump but

the pastors in that room. >> this is a stain on the body of christ. i need to know how y'all are smiling at that tape while the whole world frowns at what this represent and what it looks like. the blood is dripping off your hands. >> what would you say to the pastors who were in that room if you could talk to them right now? >> what i would say is i respect the right of every pastor to speak his or her own mind on situations. what i resent is the implication that those pastors speak for the black church. the black community is not monolithic. the black church when we use that phrase, we're not simply talking about black ministers who preach or even black members who gather, we're talking about the church that was hewn out of resistance to white supremacy,

we're talking about the church that formed in spite of a religion that was given to us for subjugation and that we turned into a faith of liberation. >> yeah. >> the assault that these ministers promoted by going to that table and sitting down for a discussion without any kind of plan is that they attacked and they put in a negative light the black church and they don't have the right to do that. >> reverend traci blackmon, appreciate you being here and appreciate your insights. thank you so much. thank you. and more "am joy" is coming up. (vo love is knowing... it was meant to be. and love always keeps you safe. (vo) love is why we built a car you can trust for a long time. the all-new subaru impreza sedan and five-door. a car you can love no matter what road you're on. the subaru impreza. more than a car, it's a subaru. right now, get 0% apr financing

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i think one of the things that we've learned here, george, after what now over a year of this investigation is that there has been no evidence put forward by anyone at this point that we've seen, and we've seen 1.4 million documents, we've prov e provided 32 witness interviews of any type of collusion. what we have seen is one of the most irregular investigations in u.s. history. welcome back to "am joy." donald trump just put another wrinkle in his defense in russia gate. he took to twitter blasting a story in the washington post that he's concerned about the legal jeopardy his son, donald trump jr. may be in over the june 2016 trump tower meeting. trump contradicted the original explanation suggesting it was about -- that was suggesting it

was about russian adoptions. instead this morning he wrote, quote, this was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal, done all the time in politics and it went nowhere. i did not know about it. what does this latest tweet mean for the investigation? joining me now jennifer reuben of the washington post, msnbc contributor jonathan capeheart and danny savalos, matthew miller and dana millbank of the washington post and joining by phone ellie mistow of above the law.com. give us your sense from a legal point of view what has donald trump done to his defense or donald trump jr.'s potential legal jeopardy? >> joy, we are very close to donald trump saying in open court, you're gd right i ordered the code red! this is beyond ridiculous. what we have right now is donald trump admitting, admitting for the first time that his son colluded or conspired, which is the legal term, with a foreign

operative to influence an american election and we have trump admitting now kind of indirectly that he covered it up. so we can talk a lot about whether this proves collusion or conspiracy. what i'm more focused on is this proves obstruction. you need the underlying crime, the underlying illegality to make an obstruction for justice case and trump just admitted on twitter what the underlying crime was. it's an amazing, hilarious thing. >> it's actually not the first time he has admitted to something that could be called obstruction of justice. let's go back to the may 2017 lester holt interview in which donald trump admitted why he fired jim comey. take a listen. >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey knowing there was no good time to do it and, in fact, when i decided to just do it i said to myself, i said, you know, this

russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse. >> so, ellie, if donald trump has a history of admitting whatever it is the underlying offense is and kind of skating on it for now, do you think that maybe that experience has taught him that perhaps just admitting it is his best defense? >> i think the experience has taught him that the republican party does not have the will or strength to call him on it, right? we have to remember, impeachment fundamentally is a political crime. at some point, at some point somebody needs to put a microphone in front of paul ryan's face and ask him if he is an ally to the american people or if he's an ally to donald trump because increasingly those two things are incompatible. i think trump once again is just banking on the inherent weakness of the republican party to actually stop him from doing any of this. >> yeah, oh, have i got a panel that would love to weigh in on that. i'm going to make them wait one more minute. i'm going to danny savalos on

this. it appears that if you combine the current reporting along with what you're seeing donald trump doing, he's following the advice and example of his lawyer, his tv lawyer rudy giuliani. here's a couple of examples of rudy giuliani saying on tv what donald trump tweeted this morning. >> i've been sitting here looking at the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime. >> it's not. >> collusion is not a crime. >> i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. the hacking is the crime. >> that certainly is the original crime. >> the president didn't hack. >> of course not. >> he didn't pay them. >> as you know, it led to the meeting with the russians. >> if you got the hacked information at cnn would you be in jeopardy of going to jail? of course not. >> danny, as i remind our audience that this man is a former federal prosecutor who just did that act. anyhow, is this an example of donald trump essentially following the very weird republican advice of counsel? >> i don't know why we continue

to focus on the word collusion and rudy knows better. this is a prosecutor that was a u.s. attorney here in the southern district who absolutely nepapalmed the mob using conspiracy law. he is absolutely familiar with defeating organized crime by using conspiracy, acting in concert or accompliced liability. focusing on collusion doesn't have any legal significance. if he looked in the crimes code he would know that there are plenty of crimes that cover this activity. but playing defense attorney for a moment, if donald trump and giuliani are retreating, retreating now into this ever shrinking bubble of liability and saying hey even if there was collusion, it's not a crime, it could arguably still be consistent with trump's tweet this morning if he's taking the view that donald trump jr. always admitted to seeking dirt on hillary clinton when he admitted in his e-mail, if it's

what you say it is, i love it. maybe this is we'll see the trump team say this is consistent with what i've been saying the whole time, even if there was a meeting, it was for zirt and donald trump jr. admitted it was for dirt it's not a crime. i suspect you may see that kind of spin coming out of the trump administration. >> we're now primed to expect anything. i want to play one more thing and bring in the panel. this is another thing giuliani did. he said, yes, indeed, the meeting was about getting dirt on hillary clinton. giuliani threw another wrinkle by mentioning there was a second meeting. there may have been another meeting. he threw a new name into the mix as well. take a listen. >> lenny davis added there was a meeting two days before the meeting took place with donald jr., jared, manafort and two others. gates and one more person. >> that's a real meeting? you're saying -- >> that's a real meeting on another provable subject in

which -- >> maggie miller, maybe they should get flowers from mueller's grand jury. they are tieing in cooperating witness rick gates. they're admitting the trump tower meeting was what they thought it was, it wasn't what donald trump dictated. this is a gift to the prosecution. no? >> it is a novel legal strategy. a novel public relations strategy. you often hear lawyers say -- argue the facts and the facts are on your side if the facts are on your side, argue the law. they tried to argue the facts. they came out and said this wasn't about assistance from the russians. it was about adoption. it turned out they were trying to seek assistance from the russians. now you see them retreating and the president retreating personally and arguing about the law. well, we did it but it wasn't illegal. but there's one interesting tell in his tweet this morning. that's the final statement, but i didn't know about it. >> right. >> fefgs so convinced that there wasn't anything wrong about this meeting why does he continue to insist he doesn't know about it,

a fact that may fall apart because we've seen michael cohen telling reporters that in fact the president did know about it. >> if he didn't know about it, that says he's shoving don jr. out in front of him saying, well, he knew about it. >> that would be the case. i think if you were making a conventional legal argument, but it really feels at this point that we've moved beyond any sort of a legal argument and we are sort of preparing and inokay cue lating for what's coming next. he said, okay, i shot somebody on fifth avenue but i missed so it's okay. well, no, that would be a crime, too. but i think the idea is they keep giving out a little more. a few months from now he's going to say, yes, i had a phone call with vladimir putin to throw the election in wisconsin but we didn't talk about pennsylvania. >> it is incredible but elie made the point that all of this is gearing up towards one outcome. there is a finding you can't prosecute the sitting president f. that finding holds, this is

about impeachment. even with a blatant admission that, yes, this was about essentially collusion, what is paul ryan -- what are the republicans planning on doing about it? >> first, i'd like to remind mr. trump that that ruling only says you can't be prosecuted while in office. >> correct. >> so before he goes out the door maybe he wants to resign the presidency and have vice president pence pardon him because he's going to be prosecuteable as soon as he leaves office. put a pin in that. >> right. >> republicans are shameless. they won't do anything. we keep waiting for that moment when they will finally topple over and it never comes. so they will, i think at a point in which the prosecutor dumps this report, they'll say, this is much to do about nothing. this is all political. hopefully by then though there will be a different party in control of the house of representatives, then the democrats are going to have the naughty problem, do we proceed with an impeachment case knowing that it's very hard if not

impossible to get a conviction? are we going to do to him what the republicans did to bill clinton, create an issue that rallies his base? so i think we are headed for that moment, but i would say to mr. trump and the others, you are not in the clear. you can be prosecuted as soon as you leave office. >> yeah. jonathan, we talked earlier off camera about the fact that donald trump -- this is all about managing the message to the base, right? he's talking to 30% of the country convince them no matter what you hear, don't worry about it. you and i are cool. >> right. there are two courts in play right now. the court of law, which we've been talking about and the court of public opinion which we've been talking about and the only sphere, the only space where trump seems to operate but also actually has proven acumen, you know, he puts these tweets out there and he's got all of these people who support him no matter what. this guy doesn't understand nuance. he doesn't know nuance and so he

gets information from his real lawyers, freaks them out -- >> you think he's hearing he's in trouble? >> oh, yeah. yeah. this amplifies what matthew miller tweeted out. he must know that dorn jr. is i trouble. >> right. >> he lashes out. he says, i didn't know. which to your point, of course he knew. to elie's point earlier which i want to amplify. in josh greene's book, "devil's bargain" early in the book he makes the point that donald trump learned early on that he could say and do the most outrageous things and no one in the republican party would hold him accountable. >> right. >> that's what the birther issue was. he kept pushing, pushing, pushing on the sitting president of the united states claiming that he was illegitimately in the office and the republican party did nothing when they were given every opportunity to push back on the cancer that was starting to spread in the party, they did nothing.

to elie's point, to jennifer's points, to all of our points, if we're expecting the republican party, for speaker ryan or mitch mcconnell to hold president trump accountable for this tweet, any tweets to come, for any reports coming from robert mueller, you have another thing coming. nothing is going to happen. >> it seems to be working. mueller's credibility is being chipped away, chipped away repeatedly a among the trump base. it is having that effect. this was a week where paul manafort started his trial, a completely nonpartisan affair. we see the good work mueller is doing but in a sense he's taking us off of that because we're talking about the food fight again. >> i wonder, matthew, whether or not the name of the vice president mike pence was brought up whether he can. he's doing the paul ryan, i'm not here. i'm in the curtains. don't see me. pretend you don't see me. paul manafort is largely responsible for picking mike pence. he was a very integral part of

the campaign. papadopoulos was interacting. how long does mike pence get to stay in the curtains? >> it's a great question. bob mueller's been conducting this investigation going around talking to a number of people in the white house. he's interviewed numbers of people in the white house, interviewed reince priebus, interviewed the former press secretary. if mike pence had any involvement both either on the campaign side or obstruction of justice side through the involvement of firing of jim comey or other things he claimed he knew notion about until after the fact, we'll hear about it. pence might have been smart enough to recognize early on that this administration was a train wreck and at times he was better off hiding behind the curtains inside and not being involved with the president's reckless illegality. >> let me go back to elie. you have paul manafort on trial not related to this but potential tax evasion, money laundering, items like that. he's already in trouble.

you have donald trump jr. it does seem his father has shoved him out front. he was the principle person who organized that and you had jared kushner in that meeting. in your view how much legal jeopardy are those people in that meeting in starting with the son? >> infinite. i don't know what it takes. i'm a father. i do not know what it takes to throw your own son under the bus on twitter because you're angry at 9:00 in the morning. i just -- i cannot conceive of what kind of person does that. he just loradoed his son for what? for what gain? jared is in a lot of trouble, manafort is in a lot of trouble. don jr. is now in a lot of trouble because don jr. lied in front of congress and his father just admitted it. so bad. it's bad for them. it's bad for all of them. >> yeah. you wanted to jump in, matt. >> i wanted to say one of the

things one of the big open questions for the mueller investigation is has he contacted don jr.? jay sekulow said he's not been contacted. if he's not been contacted it's because he's a target. >> exactly. one is, yes, you have all of that testimony and there's a reason why the republicans haven't let those transcripts out because they're damning. so to the extent to which he lied and then don jr. also put his name on a statement that said this was about adoption, he's in trouble. in terms of crime? this is like a video camera of the bank robbery. they have all of the people in the room, they have the e-mail saying, yes, thanks for the information from a russian person that i'm going to use to help my father -- you don't have evidence like this in a normal case. >> yes. >> because no one's this stupid except these people. >> well, danny, you have a bank

robbery on tape where donald trump jr. has essentially thrown the bag of money to donald trump jr. he's thrown him the bag of money. what defense is left for don jr. whose statement was dictated, written by his father, turns out to have been completely false, tried to say adoption was the reason for the meeting when everyone knows that means magnitsky act which still leads back to russia. what legal defense is left for donald trump jr.? >> that's right. there's a glaring inconsistency between what donald trump jr. has said and testified to and to what trump sr. has just said in this tweet, but just to play again devil's advocate, isn't it possible in trump's mind that everything he said today in his tweet is consistent with his view of this meeting, which is that there wasn't anything wrong with this meeting. and in that sense because it's long been suspected, just as you said that this meeting was not about adoptions, it was about

getting dirt on hillary clinton, if that is the case and we've known that for a while, then in trump sr.'s mind he's done nothing but maintain the status quo and concedes that, hey, this may have been a meeting about dirt but meeting about dirt is not a crime. now it is, turns out, a crime. that's the problem. that's the issue. but it is a crime that is not as -- it's a crime that is not commonly charged. >> right. >> and in trump's mind thinking like a trump, if he believes there was nothing wrong with goating dirt from russians or someone from arkansas or someone from anywhere, then this is consistent with how he views this case. ultimately as no big deal and much ado about nothing. >> i've got to throw it to the panel. i don't know how many elections you've covered. have you ever heard of a campaign, an american presidential campaign fielding dirt from the kremlin and saying that's normal political oppo

research. >> no, no, no, no, no. >> not even one? >> no. it is a really bad move. what danny was just saying, in trump's mind an illegal act is not illegal in his mind. >> yeah. >> but on paper it's illegal. we did have an instance, in the 2000 campaign, the gore campaign book -- no, the bush campaign book landed in the gore's team office and they looked at that, nope, gave it to the fbi. that's what moral people do. that's what people who follow the law do. that's what patriots do. >> and understand their defense, their political defense is we went to the russians. what's wrong with that? what's wrong with that? so basically the republicans are content to have a foreign power intervene on their behalf. that's where we've gotten to. >> that's where we've gotten to. you've just had the junior senator from kentucky, land pr l

paul, there is an open affinity to russia acceptable in the republican party. >> the only thing i can think of is they are building a stupidity defense. this is the fifth explanation for this meeting now by my count. >> right. >> and from the very beginning they said -- a lot of them say privately, we were too inept to collude. >> right. >> that is the one thing that possibly rings true when you see stupid at this. >> i'm going to ask elie? >> no, ignorance of the law is no defense. no defense! they can't be -- they can't get out of this by saying they were too stupid to do it correctly. >> let me ask you one other question, elie, elie and danny. first elie. is there a way to legally obtain -- is it lawful in any way to obtain opposition research from a foreign government to use in an american presidential campaign? is there any way that that is

legal? >> i mean, really, what the system wants -- what the system wants is transparency so whatever you're getting, whatever is helping your campaign, they're supposed to register as who they are and you are supposed to be able to transparently know who is helping you. a lot of the problem here is the secretiveness of the entire situation. >> and, danny, to that also point, if there's stolen material -- the nixon case was about stolen material from the democratic national committee being used in the presidential campaign. in this case the stolen material was hacked by russians, by a foreign government that was connected to the kremlin. is there any way to legally use that stolen material in an american presidential campaign and not disclose it? >> no, but not even necessarily because it's stolen, more because it's anything of value and the statute prohibits

receiving or trying to receive or obtain anything of value from a foreign power. we need not reach whether or not the material was stolen because as long as it is something of value, it doesn't need to be a bag of cash or a bar of gold. anything of value can be pamphlets, it can be -- it can be information and in this case if it is information in the form of e-mails or something like that, then it's not a hard case to make it it meets the anything of value definition in the statute irrespective of whether it was stolen, borrowed or on lease. >> yeah. the reason we know it's something of value is trump called for it to be used. >> right. >> this gave the look of valueness, if you will, during the campaign, during the convention when he goes out and he says, russia, if you're listening -- >> yeah. >> -- send the tweets out. >> then they subsequently went and started following instructions. >> exactly. it's only because this stuff is

in public that we pause. imagine if quietly he had said tell the russians we want them to release the e-mails. >> yes. >> there wouldn't be all of this questioning, is it legal, is it illegal? >> or imagine if, i don't know, when he met with vladimir putin for two hours, doing it again. we don't know what they talked about. thank you to our guests. also to our legal eagles. up next, donald trump's latest shot in social media. the fact is, there are over ninety-six hundred roads named "park" in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but allstate agents know that's where the similarity stops. if you're on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the washoe zephyr could damage your siding. and that's very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. but no matter what park you live on, one

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msnbc is so corrupt. it's so disgusting. so disgusting. i would say almost their worst. they're really a fake news group of people, and here's the good news. the guys that we love, right? they're blowing them away in the ratings. cnn is down at the bottom of the totem pole. msnbc isn't even close to being next to these shows. >> donald trump has referred to the media as, quote, the pope sigs party, fake news and the rather stall inist term, the enemy of the people. he tie rates that the -- that u.n. violates the basic norms.

we are especially concerned that these attacks increase the risks of journalists being targeted with violence. on thursday when cnn's jim acosta challenged the white house press secretary over journalists of late offering an opportunity for the administration to say they are not an enemy of the people. this was sarah huckabee's response. >> it's ironic, jim, that not only you and the media attack the president for his rhetoric when they frequently lower the level of conversation in this country repeatedly, repeatedly the media resorts to personal attacks without any context to incite anger. >> his own daughter acknowledges that. all i'm asking you to do, sarah, is to acknowledge that right now and right here. >> i appreciate your passion. i share it. i've addressed this question. i've addressed my personal feelings. i'm here to speak on behalf of the president. he's made his comments clear.

>> host of in the thick and npr's latino media. i'm going to you, maria. i want to play for you our own katie tur of msnbc telling you some of the things she still hears and things she's heard and get your response about this atmosphere that particularly is toxic for women journalists. take a listen. >> i hope you get raped and killed, one person wrote to me just this week. raped and killed. not just me but a couple of my female colleagues as well, and in case you want to argue that this has nothing to do with the president, the most recent i note i got ended with maga. >> maria, you had spoken with the president and complained about personal attacks against her and how she feels she feels about donald trump. this atmosphere has been very pointed, very targeted and women

journalists have taken the brunt of it. >> you know who i'm thinking about right now? i'm thinking about identia b. w. she wanted to cover and report on the lynchings that were happening in the united states of america. because she wanted to report on that she was labeled some kind of advocacy journalist and that she had around agenda. the reason i'm bringing up ida b. wells is because women journalists, women of color journalists, we bear an incredible responsibility in how the role of journalism exists in the united states of america. so we have to be out there speaking out and of course, joy, as you know, oftentimes when we do speak out we're criticized. we're told, you have an agenda. there's something wrong with you. you're mexican? oh, you're a woman, you have an agenda on that. as journalists, we have to continue to speak the truth but this is not normal, as i've said

multiple times right here with you, joy. i feel like us as journalists, we continue to play by the same rules. and i've been trying to think, like what can we do? we have to come up with some kind of a strategy. is it a media blackout? do all of the heads of the national news media get together? we have a conference and figure out what we do? well, most of the people who run the networks are white men and so these kinds of attacks yet i think that -- i don't even want to say it, but one of us is going to go down and what are we going to do then? we're just going to report on it like another headline, another story? >> you know, eric, as someone who's analyzed the media for a long time, that is a good question. what can the meet yeah do? the media is still subjecting themselves to these conferences with sarah huckabee sanders? >> if we look at trump's tweet this morning which was

completely unhinged, inciting violence and inciting it against the press. i don't know how any journalist shows up at the white house press briefing. these press briefings are a joke. they're an avalanche of lies. they're not a good forum to be fact checked instantly. there is no factual information shared at a white house press briefing. that is where we are. it doesn't exist. if you're a white house reporter working hard to get information, you can't get any in a briefing. what has also become new is the sort of scripted set performance pieces by sarah sanders from the grievance si nation, right? you just played one. and so now it's just become this platform for bashing the press, for demonizing the press, for hating the press. i wrote a column a year ago. i said can the white house press briefings be saved. it seemed glaringly obvious it

could not and i don't understand why anyone is playing this game anymore. >> jennifer, if you go to authoritarian countries, one of the features is you do not have a free press. there's very limited ability to speak out against the regime in power and the media that does exist is very co-opted. it praises the administration. you see the tactic all over the parts of europe that are going in that authoritarian direction. donald trump this morning literally tweeted out and accused the media of not only being the enemy of the people which is a stalinist term. chuck todd tweeted in terms, this is outrate gous. i'm sorry. i know he's baiting us to respond. i'm taking the bait in hopes that rational people realize this is wrong. chuck todd is probably the most straight ahead, down the middle

journalist. if he is having to tweet in that kind of exasperation, what is it the media could do differently? >> come around to the view that i share now with eric. i thought they were there to document the horror but now we know what the horror is. we don't have to put it on television. we don't have to put it on television live. if by some chance she utters some morsel of accurate information, it could be fact checked and related to the audience. the same thing with the rallies. no reason to put them on live television. if there is news made, print journalism or on air journalism can report that. but to run an entire rally is just to add fuel to the fire. and i will say this. i think it's about time that the major news outlets, abc, nbc, cbs, major newspapers pen a letter to the president that we

are physically endangering our reporters and that we will hold you responsible for their safety. >> yeah. >> i think it's time to put him on notice and let them contemplate. i would also add one little thing. sarah huckabee sanders is so concerned that people aren't nice to her and people like me think that not that she should be harassed but ishunned. the reason is that she lies. she attacks our free press. no respectable employer should hire her after this term. no university. no news outlet. she has lied and she has endangered the lives of reporters. that's why she should be shunned. not harassed, shunned. >> joy, what would happen if we did like, again -- well, one, yes, the rallies, forget about that. we don't have to cover that. that's not news. what if, and i've said this on your show before, again, send the interns. it's a great training to the press conference. if we completely -- we as the media have got to start taking certain steps to communicate

things. i think a letter, absolutely. but what if we just turn away? what if we didn't show -- what if all of us said for a whole week we're not going to talk about one thing that comes out of the white house? i mean, it's radical. i know, it's upsetting, but this is not how we operate but he is coming after us. are we going to have to start talking about this after one of us has been killed? is that it? >> yeah. and, you know, eric, you've had -- the difference also is that there's a lot of personalization in a way that we know in the age of social media can send sort of people out to get a person. donald trump calling don lemon dumb and impugning his intelligence as an award-winning journalist. when you have right now sarah jong is their new flavor of the month or the person they don't want "the new york times" to have on staff. we know george ronalds was

removed and it's very personalized. are you concerned that the personalization of it combined with the real furor could get somebody hurt? >> oh, yeah. people have already been hurt. indianapolis newsroom experienced that massacre. trump is going to get more journalists killed and he's not going to care when it happens, period. that's where we are. we've come so far from spero o agnew. we are so far beyond that now. as you say, this is a toxic, dangerous, personalized war. how many journalists have been killed under putin's rule? that's where we may be headed. >> it's scary to think about. it isn't complaining among journalists. this is serious stuff. jennifer rubin, maria, eric, thank you all very much. really appreciate you. next up, not everyone is mad at the nfl for xing colin kaepernick over his take a knee

protest. we have a great debate coming up after this break. stay with us. i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one.

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so, no, what i wanted to be able to express with my ties to let these families know that they're not alone. you know, i'm not here, you know, voicing but by these names on my tie, had a big platform as the pro football hall of fame, there's a lot of stuff going on on our country and i wanted to

let these family members know that they're not alone. >> nfl star randy moss made a quiet but powerful statement saturday night during his induction into the pro football hall of fame sporting a time emblazoned with the names of black and brown victims. moss once played football with former san francisco 49ers quarterback colin kaepernick, another outspoken athlete who used his platform who paid for it with his career. joining me are two men who disagree on whether the price that kaepernick paid was justified. camille foster, host of the podcast the fifth column and teray host of the teray show. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> since we've been talking about lebron playing what lebron james told our friend don lemon on monday about colin

kaepernick. >> you heard what the president has said about marshawn, about stef. >> yup. >> about, you know, it seems like -- >> cap perfect zblik yekaeperni. >> yeah. >> men of color. what's up with that? >> what's up with that is all wrong, it's not up, it's down. for him to, like i said, use force to kind of divide us is something i can't -- i can't sit back and not say nothing. >> do you think he uses black athletes as a scapegoat? >> at times. at times and more often than not i believe he uses anything that's popular to try to negate people from thinking about the positive that they could actually be doing. >> camille foster, do you think the president has unfairly demonized colin kaepernick? do you think it is unjust that colin kaepernick is no longer playing in the nfl? >> let me take the last question first. i'm not certain why colin

kaepernick is not playing in the nfl. i don't know if it has to do with the skill on the field or something with the very, very vocal protests. with respect to the president's antics, i think it's fair to call them antics, the president is a bit of a bore. he calls people names and does all sorts of silliness. i don't think that is appropriate. i think it's a problem when the president of the united states is caricaturing people and demagoguing them. that being said, the fact is there is a lot about the conversation about police reforms, police-involved shootings that i think is very unhealthy. the fact is when people in a black lives matter camp talk about things or someone takes a knee, the thinking is anyone who disagrees with their perspective does so because they don't care about black lives. on the other side, the sensibility is if you're taking a knee, you're disrespecting my flag. these are two camps talking past one another and not talking about the issues that they

fundamentally care about which is why i would say if you have a movement like this, you're interested in achieving reforms, it's not apparent that having colin kaepernick at the tip of your spear is good. he's going to inflame things that are hyperbolic and don't get to the heart of the issue. in 2017 you had less than 1,000 people shot and killed by police. that's a number that's important but it's less than 1,000. we shouldn't be hysterical. only about 68 of those people were unarmed and only 20 of those people were black. 30 of them were white. this is an issue that is materially significant for all-americans of all races and we should be talking about it in that way, not valkanizing and making it about race. >> i have no thoughts about why

colin kaepernick is not in the nfl. he's not there because they don't like his protests because a lot of the fans, the white fans are bothered by his protests. the core issue here is the killing, the wrongful killing of black people by agents of their government. colin kaepernick is morally right, indeed, has a moral imperative to speak about this when he has a platform and the notion that you don't do this in your workplace really does not fit. i would agree with it, in 99% of the cases accountants should not be going into h.&r block and saying, let's talk about our education system. when you have a case of life and death. one, two, three is far too many wrongfully killed by our government. when you have an issue like that and you have a platform like colin kaepernick has, you have to say something. my question is not why is kaepernick saying so much, my

question is why are not more people saying more? because this is an incredibly important issue in modern america? why would we settle for any number of black people being wrongfully killed by their own government? >> and, you know, i have to take exception to the first thing you said, that there's a question of why colin kaepernick isn't playing. it's the subject of a lawsuit he's filed saying there was collusion. it seems more coincidenceal that he and eric reid are not on rosters. other players are not on rosters. e.a. sports had to a popollogizr cutting colin kaepernick's name out of the sound track to the madden nfl game and to big shawn and other people. my friend kyle harvey has a piece up at the shadow league asking when did colin kaepernick's name essentially a curse sfwhord how can yword?

how can you say that? >> i can only speculate about the reason why he has not been picked up by a team. there are plenty of players who have really dodgy track records who still manage to get picked up by teams in various circumstances. what i can talk about in a concrete way but not nearly as concrete as i would like, i am an advocate for criminal justice reform. i think there should be independent investigation of all police-involved shootings and i think narrowly talking about this as a racial issue or primarily a racial issue is myopic. this is the point of some of the fundamental reforms that benefit all-americans. this doesn't have to be something where people are vehemently disagreeing with one another. if the police kill, should they investigate themselves? i don't know an american of any political party that could disagree with that. >> i would disagree because i'd rather see an independent board.

>> that's not the answer to the question. >> investigating themselves doesn't ever work. >> that's what happens in nearly 100% of police-involved shootings. >> let toure finish his thought. >> no, just like that. we have a significant because they don't want to deal with the problem that too many black men and women are being killed by agents of their government. the police are part of the government, and we are not receiving effective policing when we are scared in our communities of being killed by the police. this is not something that we can just -- just say just shut up and play. that is the other side of this. that's ultimately what you are saying. we don't want to hear what you are saying, colin kaepernick. there is a first amendment argument and issue, and just the right in america to protest when you are not getting the justice that you deserve, and if colin kaepernick is saying, don't protest, you're saying, shut up and play. >> statistically, it is just a

fact that black -- that african-americans are killed more often than their white counterparts by police. that is just an actual fact. so what would be wrong with athletes who are black and subject to that kind of violence potentially joining in those protests? >> black people are overrepresented in shooting statistics and rates of homicide, and -- >> are you doing black on black crime? >> i'm saying something fundamentally different than that. i'm saying that i don't know just looking at the disparities is enough. >> we have to have you guys come back. that wasn't what i asked you about. i was asking about murders by police. we'll have you back. thank you guys. more "a.m. joy" coming up. call. and they greeted me as they always do. sergeant baker, how are you? they took care of everything a to z. having insurance is something everyone needs, but having usaa- now that's a privilege.

when heartburn hits... fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. tum tum tum tum tums... smoothies... ...and introducing new tums sugar-free. ron dellams, an unwavering force in congress, passed away on monday after battling prostate cancer. during his time in congress, he led a 14-year campaign against a p partide in south africa and wrote the legislation that imposed sanctions on that country, that were lifted in 1991 after they repealed their laws and released nelson mandela

from prison. he spent more than two decades in congress after serving as the mayor of oakland, california, and was among the most prominent african-americans in public office who also happened to have helped change the course of history. our condolences to his family. and that's it. before i go, i also want to congratulate team "a.m. joy" on our award for the national association of black journalists. we were honored for our segment on the kalif browder story. and the creator of the jay-z executive producer documentary series. many thanks. wu wish i could have been with you guys. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next week, and stay with msnbc. goes into making america's #1 shave.

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and a very good sunday to you. thanks for being with us. it is high noon in the east 9:00 out west. here's what's happening at the moment. a sunday tweet storm from the president, and one of them getting a lot of attention. at issue, whether the president suggested in this tweet that his son conspired with the russians when he agreed to the trump tower meeting. >> but the problem here is that now he and his son are really in

the