today? >> watch the trial super closely. see what trump is doing from his vacation home. always been up tweeting about iran. pay close attention. there's a real divide between us and europe how to deal with the iranian sanctions. a lot of people are worried that the words today are only going to escalate things with iran when we've already escalated things with the chinese and obviously the koreans. >> curious to see how that will play out. jim vandehei, good seeing you. reading axios a.m. in a little bit. sign up for the newsletter, signup.axios.com. that does it for us on this tuesday morning. i'm yas lynn vossoughian alongside ayman mohyeldin. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning. it is tuesday, august 7th, and welcome to "morning joe."

with us on this tuesday, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments elise jordan is with us. pultsen prize winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. also with us, senior writer at politico and co-author of the playbook, jake sherman joins us. a lot to get to this morning. a number of big stories unfolding. we're following them, including donald trump jr.'s shifting story on his meeting with the russians. the question i have for him, does he know he's making things worse for himself. now what he's talking about a quote, "bait and switch." really, just stop cooking. and rick gates points the finger at paul manafort saying they are both guilty. what his testimony means for the future's trump's future campaign

chairman, and it's going to cost more than projected, take longer than planned and not perform as well as expected. this, about trump's prose eprop border wall. when he brings up immigration, bringed us his disgusting policy of children being separated from their families. we begin with new weekly tracking numbers from gallup, finds 52% disapprove of the job president trump is doing compared to 41% who approve of his performance. cnbc's john harwood analyzed the source of the report and found in the data whites with no college degree approve of the president's job. 58% to 39%. while 29% of all other than americans approve 6, 66%

disapprove. the numbers are shifting for the president? >> talked about it for a long time. a bit of narrow casting. but this is about as narrow casting as it gets. willie, all i can say for donald trump and republicans who are hoping, like a special election in ohio tonight, the republicans hoping that he's somehow going to get them over the finish line, even in strongly republican districts lie this ohio 12. they better hope that their small slice of the electorate comes out, because, i mean, donald trump is sacrificing just about every other group in america for this one group of white, non-college educated voters that, again, just -- there just aren't enough to get him over the top or to get his candidates over the top in a lot of elections. >> that gallup number is where

where he's been over his presidency but that cross-tab is so interesting. won white non-college voters. makes up his core and the people we see at the rallies of last week. the three big rallies. that is his hard-core support. remains to be seen if he intervenes, like ohio 12, when he encourses chris kovac, a republican running for governor in kansas, the rga and republican party didn't want him to endorse, remains to be seen how powerful he exactly is in these races. >> what we've learned so far in the special elections and the primaries is that he's very powerful inside the republican party. he is -- got 89% support among republicans. so it's very difficult running as a republican in a primary to buck trump. on the other hand, he is very unpopular among your generalmon

democrats have been a whole lot better than one would expect, than anyone imagined, in these elections. we shouldn't be talking about this, ohio special election. this is a safe republican seat, and we're talking about it, because it's a trump-ee-backed candidate up against a democrat who's a moderate who could win. >> ak mike barnicle, talking about off-year elections, so important. intensity. most people don't go out and vote in mid-term elections. you're lucky if you get a third in the primary and maybe 50% of voters when you get to the general election. but there was an article this morning that i read, talking how, i think in the "washington post," talking about in ohio, these are rock ribbed

republicans who voted for trump, and you had the reporter knocking on doors, and one lifelong, rock-ribbed republican said -- they asked, who they're going to be voting for, and she said, you know, well, she said, i support trump, we voted for trump, but i hate him. something along those lines. i can't stand him. he's a jerk. we're hearing that more and more. i'm hearing that more and more from the people i talk to. who voted for trump. voted for him, they're embarrassed by him. they don't like him. that's not exactly the secret sauce to get people out to vote in midterm elections, and i just -- i believe this ambivalence at some point, and i believe just hating nancy pelosi, at some point is not going to be enough to help these democratic candidates, because nancy pelosi is not running

america. >> you know, joe, there's a real tragic aspect of those numbers that we just indicated in the poll. the fact that he has overwhelming support among largely whites with a high school degree. these are people who need a president standing up for them more than most people in america, and he goes to these rallies, and if you listen to the rallies, i know it's discomforting to listen to his language in the rallies, but he doesn't propose anything to help them. instead, he relies on grievance. he relies on trying to cement the divisions that already exist in america. he relies on strengthening those divisions. he relies on talking about race. he relies on talking about, really, hate, and these people who show up are victims of a con. not all of them are racist. now, some, perhaps, are.

no doubt about that, but they're victims of a con. they node a leeed a leader, a p who will do something about their lives, to improve their lives. that's the tragedy. >> you know, gene, victims of a kind, a what i've never really understood for somebody in economic trouble. somebody struggling to get their kids through school. somebody who's struggling to keep a job, somebody who's struggling to get, you know, good, decent fair wages and the ability to take your kids to a doctor that's not an emergency room visit at 11:00 at night. not quite so -- i just don't understand why some of these people out in the crowds, they're conned by a guy who talks about himself all the time. lies about himself all the time, inflates what he's done all the time, and then, of course, on top of that, he has convinced a

lot of these people that their biggest problem -- their biggest problem -- is the media. >> yeah. right. yeah. we're the enemy of the people. >> that's their biggest -- if that's their biggest problem, that's -- that's -- that's interesting. >> yeah. and, look, he sunshi-- as mike . it's a con. it's been an effective con. the other thing he does, before these audiences, is make ridiculous promises that are just -- that will never be kept. you know, he's bringing back the steel industry. they're opening eight new clients -- that's simply not true. it's not happening. yet he says it, and people applaud, and this and that, and he's very skillful at making these, drawing these cultural and racial lines. and essentially putting people in a position of being with him

or with ms13 basically. it's a demagogue's toolkit that he uses and he uses it effectively. >> and elise jordan, to an extent he chips away at his own credibility when he has policies like the separation policy. he talks about the wall. he talks about immigration and the most, in the most, quite frankly, degrading way to people, but some of that is appreciated by the base for whatever reasons. having said that, isn't it fair to say the policy of taking children away from their families has definitely hurt the president? nobody likes that. i can't imagine that would poll well. >> well, and mika, especially women that i've spoken with who are trump supporters don't support of child separation policy, even if they support donald trump. john kasich himself pointed out

suburban women will be really key in this 12th district and in picking who the next congressman is going to be. so i really am curious what suburban -- the suburban women of columbus, ohio, are going to decide to do today, in light of donald trump focusing more on any distraction that he can throw at the wall to try to turn people away from the real issues that are affecting men and women in this country. namely, the families and children separated by his inhumane policy, but also health care, and looking at what has donald trump done to actually improve health care for men and women of the 12th district. >> jake sherman, interesting when lamb won his shock, surprise election several months ago, we were talking about the suburbs of pittsburgh. now we're talking an another midwestern town. the suburbs of columbus, ohio, and if you look at one area

where republicans have been hurt the most. where donald trump's lost the most support, the reason why he's sitting at 39, 40, 41% depending whether you believe gallup or -- isn't it, when it comes to suburban voters, used to be the absolute bedrock of any republican presidential campaign? >> yeah. it's a huge problem and the majority will be won and lost in the suburbs. no question about that. i think the important thing to point out here, and what we need to wrap our head around is if this district is competitive, and our plus seven district, the district john kasich and pat tiberi, the last two that won by a dozen points or ten points every single time, if this is competitive, then there are 80 seats in america that are competitive just like this. 80 republican seats in that kind

of range that could be on the table come november. so democrats are seeing extremely rapidly their political map expand to a point where they could -- we don't know. just talking based on available information -- we could see a massive amount of seats flip, if a district like this is competitive. there are suburbs obviously all over the country that are less republican than this that could go. so we're seeing -- it almost doesn't even matter who wins tonight, because it's competitive, and that shows a really huge change in the political fortunes of the democratic and republican party. >> yeah. and, jake, it just shouldn't -- sorry about that, willie. jake, it just shouldn't be competitive. right? i mean, this is a race that republicans expected to easily lock up all along, and any reports of republicans doing

better in congressional ballot tests that we were hearing several weeks back, it seems so much of that has changed, and is there that sinking realization on the hill among republicans that this actually is going to, despite what donald trump says about a red wave, that things are getting worse by the day for republicans? >> yes. if you talk to republicans in the leadership on capitol hill they recognize that this is the cleanest test of their political fortunes at the moment. the interesting thing, this hasn't gotten a ton of ink, but in private polling the president's actually right side up in this district, not under water in approval, but the republican brand and troy balderson, the candidate, are so damaged, that it is in play, and the republican policies that danny o'connor has tried to and has successfully latched on to have put this district in play, and, yeah, there is a realization this is getting bad. getting worse than expected, and the ballot test that democrats

are up, you know, anywhere between 7 and 10 points is actually up and headed for a massive wave in november. >> willie, again, donald trump, there seems to be an irrational fear of donald trump because he shocked everybody. nobody expected he was going to win and everybody saying, oh, my god. wait. he's going to pull a rabbit out of his hat, he'd going to -- but again, there are political realities we have to look at that for, you go back, you know, 50 years. if a president's in the low 40s in approval ratings, add on the ballot test, democrats ahead 7 to 10, 12 points, there's just no getting around the fact that if democrats get their voters out this is going to be a huge fall for them. >> and donald trump won that election by seven points and

they've shrunk 10.5 points against republicans, democrats have. donald trump was there last week. mike pence has been there campaigning for balderson. this is a test of donald trump's influence. joe, point you to something else we found, unearthed writings by mike pence in the late 1990s recently brought to light. pence argued, a president should be held to the highest moral standards and removed from office if not, citing then president bill clinton's affair with a white house intern and public lies about it as an example. in one piece pence rote, "if you and i fall into bad moral habits, we can harm our families, our employees and our friends. the president of the united states can incinerate the planet. seriously. the very idea we ought to have at or less than the same moral standards placed on the standards we place on the executive a ludicrous and dangerous. we've seen the president as the

repository of our highest hopes, ideals and values. to demand less is to do harm to the blood that bought us freedom." referring to clinton again "the president's repeated lies to the american people in this matter compound the case against him as they demonstrate his failure to protect the institution of the presidency as the inspiring supreme symbol of all that is highest in our american ideals. leaders affect the lines of families far beyond their own private life." >> preach on, brother. >> a radio host when he wrote that in indiana. wrote those, posted them to his website. if you superimpose those to 2018, they take on an entirely new meaning. >> he was a radio host then and now has fallen down to vice president of the united states? words to live by and restores your faith in the one endeer --

>> more's standard maybe don't creep on 15, 16, 17-year-old girls backstage at the miss usa pageant. that who mike pence thinks has great enough moral standards to be in the white house these days, i guess. >> or don't pay off porn stars, perhaps. >> don't pay off porn stars. >> also, elise, franklin graham. read what franklin graham wrote during the clinton impeachment time. u just an self-righteous and sickening given the current stand that he's in right now, but for mike pence, again, i keep wondering. when is mike pence going to speak out? you know, donald trump and mike pence and the republican party supported roy moore. >> yeah. >> when all of those accusations were coming forward in that campaign.

to go from where he went in 1999 to where he is right now, not that long later. not that much later. a shocking, shocking turnaround. that now he's defending this guy. others saying, well, it's just between him and his wife and god. it's not what he was saying, t what franklin graham was saying or a lot of republicans defending donald trump were saying in 1999. >> an attitude i've heard recently justifying the current sins because of the past sins. well, because he did it, it's okay for him to do it now. we just don't care because he got away with it. why not let our guy get away with it, too. that shows a very hollow core of your actual beliefs. >> yeah. you know, also, mika, i've had people write me before. people that i've known in

conservative movements and also evangelicals saying, you should know, joe, christians, they ask for forgiveness. they ask for redemption. i've always said, that the is the center, if you read the bible, understand the bible. the center of jesus' teaching is we've all fallen short of the glory of god, and what's required? what's required is that you ask forgiveness, that you beg forgiveness, you understand you are unworthy of god's grace. and that it is given to you only, only, as grace. >> and you've got donald trump who says, no. i've never actually had to ask for forgiveness. i've never had to pray for forgiveness. no. i can't really think of any reason why -- that's just not who i am, asking god for forgiveness. these evangelical not only --

claim they're evangelicals, they certainly aren't evangelical -- certainly aren't the evangelicals i grew up with at first baptist church in chamblee or meridian, mississippi, or in pensacola, florida. they're giving this guy a complete free pass, and they can do that, but, please, don't wrap jesus around it, because jesus' got nothing to do with this. >> mike pence totally lost who he is in this. i'm not sure what's worth it to him, to not hold back from what he believes in, but he is allowing this to swallow him up. also, from the way back machine, jake sherman, you post add clip on twitter jed yesterday of dan rather interviewing donald trump in 1999. featuring his trip to california trying to build support among members of a reform party for a possibly president's bid. here was their reaction to his

sales pitch, plus something trump said 19 years ago that he famously echoed during the 2016 campaign. take a look. >> i was disappointed. because i felt that he -- i thought he was very attacking of other members of the party, which i thought was very disrespectful. >> i think he came, you howard what he had to say and we're exciting. >> he's a con man and ought to go back to new york. >> why? >> he's coming out here trying to destroy our party. that's the way i look at it. >> reporter: the way trump looks at it, he's at least better than everybody else in the race beginning with john mccain. said he flew combat missions. >> does that make you a hero? i'm not sure. i don't know. >> it's not the first time he said it in the past few years. it's horrific to say and seems the public's relationship with

trump has really transformed as his presidency has become all the more serious on the world stage, but he said it so many years ago. >> i'm glad my youtube phishing is good for something. yeah. no. it is obviously fascinating and the president has, despite people urging him in his party, he has continued to throw shade at john mccain about his vote last year, about a year ago right now, against repealing the health care law. something obviously, a definite thread, his disdain for john mccain going back to 1999 when he first thought about running for president. >> willie, you know, this bears repeating. donald trump dodged the draft. he got what? four, five deferments for -- >> five. >> -- bone spurs. those little feet. hard to carry around all that weight. so i guess. he's got bone spurs but sitting there making fun of a man who

was flying very early in the war. got shot down on combat missions. i know a lot of great american heroes like bud day who did and a lot of other great, great men who did during the vietnam war, and you know, he carries those scars to this day, and, again, as everybody knows, but it's got to be repeated again, the north vietnamese were going to let john mccain leave and go home, because his father was an important man in the united states military and he refused. couldn't go until the rest of his band of brothers said, until they, he allowed all of them to go. and he didn't do it. he stayed there. he stayed behind. >> i hadn't seen that clip from 1999. i thought when we heard it on that stage three years ago during the president's campaign it was maybe something impulsive her came out in reaction to john

mccain, but apparently a deeply held belief he's had for 20 or so years from now. they are true and this is preposterous. remember, he said that during the campaign, by confessioned you radios of politics, this guy is in trouble. he'll be done. the front page of the "new york post" said he was finished, her survived that, then we knew his presidency would be different than all the others. >> if you use donald trump's own way of deducing these things, if getting captured doesn't make you a hero for some reason, then getting all of those deferments because of bone spurs makes you a little coward. jake sherman, thank very much. still ahead on "morning joe" from harley-davidson to amazon a new look how companies are handling public attacks by the president. axios has an interesting new take on that.

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joining us now, co-founder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei. jim, we want to talk about wa we touched on just before the break. reporting this morning why companies rarely talk about trump. explain that, and what companies specifically? >> almost every company now is faced with this sdridecision whr or not to weigh in with or against trump. muslim ban, immigration policy. bank of america, dick's sporting good, walmart, others have to weigh in on the gun control debate. there was a poll done. on both sides, people who like

and don't like trump, don't want corporations weighing in on political issues. even if they personally feel strongly about it. this puts corporations, puts ceos in particular in a little jam, because you have a millennial workforce, shareholders who want you to take a stand, feel passion against trump as most people do and want them to stand against them. it's clear, the backlash, the risk, is much higher for corporations, which helps explain why so many corporations even when they feel pressure the ceos sit out the debate. >> you know, jim, fascinating. it really -- you really do pick it up now more than any time, and it seems to, whether you're talking about harley-davidson or banks or entertainment firms, you name it. donald trump and the schism that's been created by the last 18 months of his presidency

really has caused that. in a big way. and think about it. because i'm sure a lot of shareholders would like -- their ceos to be positive about it. if you look at all the billions of dollars they got in the tax cuts. all of the buybacks. very good for a lot of businesses, very good for a lot of corporations, large corporations. why wouldn't they talk about it. like you said, then you've got that millennial workforce. you've got a lot of people that are offended by some of the things that trump says, by some of the positions he's taken on race issues. it really could divide a workforce. >> in some ways, ceos have to see themselves as politicians. because the game has changed in the last couple offer y eyears. a lot of customers, shareholders, think you should stand for something other than just profit. you personally feel a desire to get more engaged in politics, but same time, you live in fear.

you understand that a tweet that gets sent by the president could send your stock prices tumbling. that it could lead to a regulatory fight with the white house you weren't anticipating's just like trump changeded media, trump changed politics, he's undoubtedly changed the mood inside board rooms and calculations ceos and their communicators have to make. >> willie, speaking of companies having to step up, it does seem some large tech companies have stepped up against infowars, and a host that not only has made the life of parents whose children were slaughtered at sandy hook back in december of 2012, made their lives a living hell, with many having to move from one place to another, and getting threats against their own lives because of lies that he's spreading about them, but also last week shockingly enough, maybe it was two weeks ago, accusing robert mueller of

running a child prostitution ring and then holding up his finger like it's a gun, and simulating the shooting of robert mueller and many people looking at that would suggest that he actually encouraged it. >> yeah. there's been a lot of pressure on these media companies. talked about it a lot last week, joe, on this show. now four media giants are banding together to take down controversial infowars content from the their sites. apple, facebook, spotify and youtube all removed infowars and its creator's content from platforms in various degrees. all in an effort to stop the spread of misinformation. alex jones has been behind several right wing conspiracy theories like claiming the sandy rook shooting was a hoax. a following garnering millions of subscribers. apple moved sunday to remove its podcast from its platform, spotify following suit. facebook announced unpublished

for repeatedly violating company standards, youtube followed suit. jones confirm and twitter he'd been banned by facebook, apple and spotify. twitter has not taken any action against infowars or jones himself. gene robinson, this is a guy that goes without saying, people are familiar with him. he's driven sandy hook families into hiding fans conspiracy theories and having his follo r followers go after these families. facebook doesn't have to abide by the first amendment. it's a private companies. >> these private companies had a decision to make and i wonder why it took so long, because to continue to put up this kind of content, just invites people, perhaps like me, to say, hold on. these are publishers and publishing material that is

false and defamatory, and they ought to be able to be sued just like the "washington post" could be sued, and others can be sued for libel and in their case billions of dollars worth of damages. so i think it was a, not just a morally correct move by these companies, but also a smart business move to sort of fend off what would be the next step, i think, which would be to, you know, look, guys. we're going to sue you. >> and you know, elise jordan, that somebody like ted cruz would come out defending alex jones, saying -- really repulsive, you know, quoting the first line of a poem, talking about the holocaust and first they came for alex jones, i don't know. ted cruz, is he familiar with the content in infowars?

i would think most of the people he sits in church with would be deeply offended. the content is extraordinarily vulgar. his language, beyond repulsive, and, again, the conspiracy theories. and the suggestion that former fbi directors be assassinated, i mean, every day he's -- it's a new shocking attack against some foundation of our culture, of our civilization, and ted cruz is going out there comparing that to people that were sent away in the holocaust? >> you got give it to ted cruz, just because he does take pandering to new lows. whether it's his own wife. his own father. he was so quick to, you know, cower back, grovel back to donald trump, and that's the same thing that he's doing with alex jones and it's so craven, so transparent, and he cares more about the millions of followers that alex jones has

and's it shows his desperation with his upcoming senate race and also his complete lack of any moral compass whatsoever. >> and, joe, you touch upon a really important point there. we all understand that there's only so much space in a newspaper. we all understand that there's only so much time on a tv program. but the media, in a sense, has dropped the ball in terms of doing our job, in terms of making more americans aware of exactly what alex jones and his followers believe. exactly what they push and believe. the conspiracy theories are beyond the realm. beyond being offensive, they're dangerous weekend ouous and we h telling people out there what these people are and what they

believe. >> it's not new. i mean, this guy actually had the repugnant view and promoted the repugnant view that -- he was, a truther. that george w. bush was -- it was an inside job. you know? i was reading a "new york times" article yesterday from back, you know, five, six, seven, eight years ago where alex jones and rosie o'donnell and all of these other people believed that building seven had imploded and that the united states government had killed americans on 9/11. that it was an inside job. i mean, that's just -- that's such deceased thinking. it's such offensive thinking, that you wonder how those people are given a platform at all. why anybody would listen to them at all, and alex jones, my god,

mika. in just -- >> yeah. >> -- again, calling -- it seemed that he was calling for the assassination of robert mueller. this should go well beyond him not being on apple or youtube anymore. this seems to be something that the secret service should be looking into when it seems that he is calling for the assassination of a former fbi director, and a man who's leading an investigation into vladimir putin undermining american democracy. i just don't get it. >> i think we can debate it more and we certainly have had that debated. especially now i think giving people like that a platform is dangerous. and we are watching things unravel before our eyes, even the value of the truth. jim vandehei, thank you. be sure to sign up for the newsletter at signup.axios.com.

still ahead, in the paul manafort trial, rick gates takes the stand and shows us what can happen when a witness flips on a former colleague. we go live to the courthouse coming up on "morning joe."

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hey, willie, want to talk quickly. you es ip caped little big horn yesterday. the red sox -- everybody loved to talk how the red sox were 8.5 games ahead 40 years ago. and bucky "blankin'" dent. and even more vexing year, 2011 up by nine games on september the 3rd. >> yeah. >> and still managed to blow it. so we still -- i always -- i always tell jack. we always say the same thing. joey and i look at each other, 162 games. 162 games. >> you still can't celebrate after a four-game sweep of boston. >> no. >> i want to point out the

yankees are red hot after blowing out the white sox in chicago 7-0. turned a corner. nine games out. not only 9.5. 9 games out and hot on your heels. playing really well. >> how about lamere and me, literally predicting a sweep in the other direction. you're right. i'll be comfortable, like, september the 28th, maybe. >> i mean, you totally, totally out-classed us, but we're going to hang on to the wild card, beat seattle and see you again in the playoffs. >> and you do that. >> anything, anything can happen in october. anything. >> still ahead, the trump administration gets set for the next phase of its immigration overhaul. this time making it harder for some legal immigrants to earn citizenship. we'll tell you which segment of the population is being targeted next on "morning joe." ♪

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aon. a new watchdog report shows major flaws in the trump administration's long promised border wall. >> this is actually a shock, because i thought for the first time he brought this up, i thought -- you know he's a builder. >> yes. >> he's got everything figured out. sherlock, the new sherlock -- no. it's unbelievable. >> yeah. >> you're telling me that's not completely locked down yet all the details. >> no, it's not. it's part of his immigration policy and concept on immigration which includes separating children from families. >> you've told us about that. >> i told you about that because every time we talk about it, every minute that goes by those children are sitting in detention fasts away from their families and their family will have no idea if they will ever see them again and the children have no idea if they will ever

see their parents again. it's worth repeating because it's going on right now. when you bring up the wall and the wall, president trump, you bring up your policies. >> the government accountability office claims the wall could cost more than projected, take longer than planned, and actually not be effective. >> just like his policy of separating families. >> they found dhs is not properly documents plans for building part of the wall in san diego. >> trump has been pushing -- >> that's german, actually for -- go ahead. >> trump has been pushing congress for more money even threatening a government shut down if his demands are not met. white house officials figure the entire wall could cost $8 to $12 billion while dhs estimates clock in at $21 million. >> really quickly willie, the most remarkable thing about that

wall, donald trump admitted during the campaign that any time there was sort of a lull, any time energy level came down, he would just use that as a throw away line, build that wall. nothing more than a throw away line. they are trying to waste $21 billion on this boon dogle that everybody including john kelly says won't work and now we have reports explaining why it won't work. >> the president continues to say at these rallies that we've already started to build this wall. they haven't. he went down once. he looked at pieces of wall like going into a wall paper store and yeah we'll do that. mexico throughout the campaign was going to pay for that wall and now donald trump is hammering democrats for not giving him funding for the wall. so there are inconsistencies every where you look about this

wall. let's bring in national security reporter for nbc news julia aimsly. she has new reporting on the trump administration legal move on legal immigrants in the u.s. tell us about your reporting. >> reporter: what we found is that steven miller's next move, this is while they are cleaning up after necessary of separating families like mika pointed out, the next move focus on legal immigrants. these are people already living in the united states with green cards, some wanting to get green cards, some wanting to get citizenship. what we're finding is that in the coming weeks, actually, this is coming very soon, the white house is finalizing a proposal that they don't need to go through congress to get this done. this would limit those immigrants from getting that citizenship or green cards if they have ever been on public benefits. that includes obamacare. includes child health insurance. includes food stamps. includes a lot of programs that immigrants, especially those working in low wage jobs would

need just to support their families. again, these aren't illegal immigrants. these are people lawfully in the united states trying to get status either as citizens or legal permanent citizens. >> what possible legal ground who steven miller or the president have if these are legal immigrants to not allow them to get their green cards. >> reporter: that's a great question. there's this public charge rule that goes back to the 1800s. it was designed so people who were coming in, say ellis island wouldn't be a burden to the federal government. they wouldn't want to take someone in who they thought couldn't support themselves. now they are redefining public charge in a very wide way to include those programs we named and to make it harder for people who might have been given waivers in the past to get citizenship, they are now re-examining that and trying to make that harder. they want to bring down the numbers of all imgrant, even legal ones. >> thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it.

mika, the biggest problem right now is, first of all, it's a boondoggle, it won't work. the trump administration is running a bigger deficit than ever before. national debt is at record high, over $21 trillion. we can't afford this wall. just, if you look at how much money we're borrowing, it's at record rates. we couldn't afford this in the best of times but with the national debt higher than it's ever been under donald trump we certainly can't afford it now. >> coming up president trump tweeted a minute ago about the neck and neck special election in ohio today. we'll have more on the latest national test of the president's popularity ahead of the mid-terms. plus "the washington post" robert costa joins us with new reporting on possibility of a sit down between the president and special counsel robert

mueller. what was hope hicks doing with the president on air force one this past saturday? there's new reporting on that. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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robinson. joining the conversation political reporter for "the washington post," moderator of washington week on pbs and msnbc political analyst robert costa. also with us senior reporter at "vanity fair" and an nbc news and msnbc contributor, scream lie jane fox. she has new reporting on hope hicks this morning which we'll get to in just a moment. >> so, mika, we got a few people from washington here. so, i feel guilty, we only talk about, you know, the red sox and the yankees. >> here we go. >> gee, the nationals they have like a three game winning streak last week. any chance nationals will come back? >> well, you know, hope springs eternal. you know that, joe. you're a red sox fan. so, yeah. there's a chance, the chance is -- i wouldn't say it's between slim and none but the window is shrinking, let us say.

bryce harper has finally got hot. his recent batting average is like .471. which is good. and so they will make a run. and got great, you know, great pitching when the pitchers are actually on, so let's hope they make a run. but it's going to be tough. >> bob costa, there always is a silver lining. i mean you can still be an orioles fan, right? >> i grew up loving cal rip kki. when you live in d.c. you have to appreciate the nationals. i wish scherzer can pitch every inning. >> he pitches one extraordinary game after another. let's go on to news because we got some news, mika, about

donald trump jr. he's talking and talk, talk. >> talk, talk, talk. >> these people need to stop talking. they need to listen to lawyers, not tv lawyers, their real lawyers and just stop talking because it makes it worse every day. >> it's beyond. donald trump jr. has said a lot about his 2016 meeting with russians beginning with his quickly discredited claim that it was about adoption. i guess a lie. now the president's son insists in a radio interview that any investigation into the matter is a big waste of time. again, after two years of, you know, nonstop investigation with everyone in the media, everyone at the fbi, the whole world is looking at this thing and have yet to produce anything that even remotely resembles what they have been talking about. yet every other day now we got

it now. i've been hearing this for two years. >> donny, did the adoption that's near and dear to my heart because i have two adopted russian sons. did that come up. >> when? >> like i said, that was the primary thing that we had spoken about in the meeting. that's not the premise that got them in the room. then essentially bait and switch to talk about that. everyone has basically said that in testimony already. so this is nothing new. but, like i said, i know it's an important issue to you. this was not a campaign issue to us. this wasn't relevant to us. it wasn't something we were going to do anything with. >> willie, where do i begin? again, when you have these people coming on and saying, oh, there's been this investigation and nothing has come out of it. well you've had actually the united states government indict

a couple of dozen russians. they have the proof from what our united states military discovered, what the intel community uncovered, what kirstjen nielsen, what dan coats, the fbi director, what everybody in donald trump's own administration, not junior, senior his administration came out and said the russians tried to undermine american democracy in 2016 and the russians are going to try to undermine american democracy in 2018 and we have all of that information because of this investigation on russia. i mean, that's about as important of an investigation as i can recall anybody in government undertaking. >> when donald trump jr. or rudy giuliani says what mural has or

doesn't have. he said mueller doesn't have a damn thing. nobody knows what he has. to listen to don jr. yesterday with laura ingrahm to say it was a bait and switch, presented to him as dirt on hillary clinton and then switched in the room to adoption, he's admitting he took the meeting to get research from a foreign entity. the emails are clear as day. his explanation after the fact at first was that it was only about adoption then as the evidence came out, obviously they shifted and changed their story. so they are twisted in knots. we were talking about this when we sat down. i have no idea what lawyer is letting these people go on tv, go on the radio and say these things over and over, contradicting themselves. >> they are just not helping themselves. they also showing certainly their state of mind. >> yeah. >> which is we're on

opportunity, we're on the prowl for russian dirt on hillary clinton. and, again, the timeline lines up in a pretty devastating way if you look at donald trump's statements in press conferences saying russia if you listen, well russia did start listening. they went after it. look at people close to donald trump, what they are saying on the radio and radio interviews. yeah, lawyers, the one or two serious lawyers around the trump family have to be pulling their hair out right now. bob, i want to -- we're going to keep talking about this in a bit, but i want to jump to what's happening tonight a big election in ohio. a race republicans should have put away a long time ago. donald trump won ohio by 11, 12 points. a strong republican district. yet a neck and neck tonight between democrats and republicans, a lot of democrats for good reason believe they've already won this, saying if they

end up losing by a point or two because the map has expanded now to 75, 80 places. you have the republican shooting himself in the foot yesterday talking about how franklin county they shouldn't elect anybody from franklin county which is one of the most important counties in that district but also the state of ohio. >> there are local issues that are a factor in this race, joe. but what's the biggest orange averaging theme of the race tonight. it could be more of a john kasich republican, move away from president trump's message. he embraced president trump, was with him at a rally over the weekend in the columbus area and stood right there as the president talked about building the wall and shaking his fist about the mueller investigation and the media. balderson is trying to see if he can make that message, standing

with trump play in the suburbs. that's a vexing challenge. it's a microcosm of what so many republicans will face in the next few months. can they get the trump voter out but run on standard republican issues. >> what i'm really watching tonight, to go back and just keep hammering down on this point, what are suburban women going to do? how are they going to vote? i think we're on the verge of a fundamental political realignment where the republican party has permanently just at least temporarily if not permanently repelled women from voting republican because of donald trump's consistent behavior. >> you're looking with suburban women across the country but including ohio they look at the issue like immigration, child separation from their families, and you wonder is that enough of a breaking point?

president trump was able to win over many women votes in 2016 as a change agent and so on who is representing a break from the washington establishment. do the scandals, the controversies, the immigration policies, does that push them away? republicans continue to believe, though, that even if you want to win over women voters you can't go too far away from president trump and that's why they are not running like ohio governor john kasich, almost independently minded republicans with the president win or lose. >> there's new reporting on former communications director hope hicks and her reappearance over the weekend at the president's side hours before he tweeted about trump tower meeting. hicks served as the go-between when the son dictated his misleading statement that it was about adoptions. hicks had planned to spend the weekend in new jersey to catch up with ivanka trump and jared

kushner. when the president learned she was in town he asked her to come along to the rally and she did. hicks was discussed by some as a dark horse to one day replace john kelly as chief of staff. while speaking to the press aboard air force one saturday hicks said she would consider it if the time was right. she came up after a couple of months away. has she ever really left the trump orbit? >> no one leaves the trump orbit in a major way and hope hicks has certainly remained connected to president trump and especially to i haven't okay and jared. she has not left this orbit. what happened on saturday was certainly the most public and overt expression of her being back in the fold since she left the white house in the spring. it seems from my reporting it wasn't necessarily a nefarious thing, she was out there. the president said for old time's sake come along.

under normal circumstances, lewandowski still travels with the president. that's something that's done. at this time when the issue of the don jr. trump tower meeting and the statement thereafter is so hot, so in the news, it's been talked about for the last couple of weeks in particular, you were talking earlier about lawyers not advising their clients to talk on tv about these things, i can imagine that hope hicks lawyer said to her it's a good idea for you to be on air force one this weekend, this is a smart legal strategy. they are people in the president's orbit like steve bannon who will not talk directly to the president because he's worried about being called back to robert mueller to interview with him. so it would not be surprising to me if robert mueller saw this coverage and we need to get her back her and ask what he talked about over the weekend. >> the president as the walls close around him a little bit want to surround him with people he's comfortable with.

he calls her hopy and yells her name. is there a chance she comes back to the white house in some way, in an official capacity? >> she has not landed a job. not decided what she wants to do next. as she spoke to reporters on saturday, she said look if the time is right, if there's a job -- that wasn't necessarily a serious offer but from people who know her they would not be shocked if at some point down the road in some capacity she came back into the fold. >> how is she finding life outside of the white house in terms of pursuing other job opportunities >> there's job opportunities she's finding. there are people who are supporters of the president who saw she did a relatively good job, as good of a job as she could. she 29 years old. head of the communications job in the white house which is an impressive thing. she hasn't found what she wants to do. she has this legal cloud looming over her head which is difficult for her and i'm sure difficult

for employers who are saying is this the right person to hire at this exact time as well. >> fascinating piece in "vanity fair". always good to see you. mika. >> chicago mayor rahm emanuel and police department officials are calling on residents to help stop the surge in violence there. following the deadliest weekend in that city in more than two years. at least 74 people were shot, 12 of them fatally between friday afternoon and monday morning. the victims ages ranged from 11 years old to 62. local media say 47 people were shot on sunday alone. the most shooting victims in a single day since september of 2011. speaking yesterday mayor rahm emanuel and superintendent of the city's police department visibly frustrated called for accountability of the people behind the violence. >> there are too many guns on the street.

too many people with criminal records on the street. and there's a shortage of ovals about what is right, what is wrong. what is acceptable, what is condoned and what is condemned. and we as a city in every corner have an accountability and a responsibility. >> you know what i never hear. i hear people holding us accountable all the time. i never hear people saying these individuals out here in the streets need to stop pulling the trigger. i never hear that. i never hear that. they get a pass from everybody. and they shouldn't. they shouldn't. >> despite the weekend's bloodshed officials say gun violence is down 70% from a year ago while homicides have fallen 20% in that same time period. really? >> gene robinson it's true the numbers are down in chicago but it's relative they are down from

astro astronomical rates. 74 people shot. 12 of them fatally. in any other context that's a mass shooting happening in america. >> yeah. it absolutely is. and chicago for years now has been this outliar as other big cities in this country have become as safe as they have been since the 1950s, new york city safest city, big city in america practically. think of where it was in the '80s. but chicago has not joined that trend. and there's lots of reasons. one is that there's kind of a gang war, a drug trans-shipment center. a lot of stuff going on. but there's no excuse for it. there's no excuse for not understanding what the situation is, and taking much more

aggressive action to stop it. 74 people shot is just unacceptable and should be unacceptable in any american city. >> it really should. gene, what's so vexing and so frustrating is the fact that, you know, in 1988, 1999, 1990, '91, new york city was an extremely dangerous place and yet you had a succession of mayor, rudy giuliani back when he was thinking in coherently, in a coherent manner. michael bloomberg for three terms. de blasio. republicans, independents, democrats figuring out how to work with the cops in new york and, again, "new york times" reported a couple of months ago that crime is solo that you have to go back to the 1950s before they were taking accurate

records and try to guess what year was the last year that was this safe in new york city and yet in chicago the nightmare continues, 74 shot, 12 killed just this weekend. what can chicago learn from new york? what can chicago learn from a lot of other cities that have turned things around? >> chicago can pick a lesson and then learn it. they can learn from new york where it was, you know a lot of policies you could argue about. there was stop-and-frisk which was ruled unconstitutional. there was sort of a very aggressive community policing. washington, d.c., which is also safer than it has been in decades. crime rates have plummeted. and did it in a different way. did it with a more of a community policing style that has produced a lot of results.

but pick one. pick some way to do something. the problem is that in chicago, which rolls on and on and on, and, obviously, not in anyway, shape or form attacking the root problems. >> it is such a tragedy for the people who live there. so bob costa, your reporting about the possible interview with robert mueller's possible interview with donald trump. that just keeps rolling on down the road. what's it looking like? are we getting any closer to the moment where the former fordham student sits across the table from princeton and st. paul's and the marine hero that two get-together and sit down and talk? >> at this point, based on my gfrgs wi conversation with giuliani last night we're not at that point.

we could be inching closer to the point when mueller makes decision about issuing a subpoena of the president of the united states. they've been negotiating for months. you wonder what is the point where mueller has had enough with giuliani and the president delaying a decision. giuliani said to me last night that he's now going to send a letter back to mueller who wrote giuliani a letter last week, a response back on tuesday or wednesday, today or tomorrow saying any questions about obstruction or in essence going to be off the table. about the president's conduct with regard to the firing of james comey or the handing of the national security adviser michael flynn. giuliani acknowledged in the conversation that this is just, again, pushing the decision away and we're now in the summer as mull certificate trying to wrap up his report and that subpoena threat made months ago back in the spring during a conversation with then trump attorney still hangs over these exchanges. >> is there a feeling, rocket, that they've just been stalling

for time, trying to push it as close to the elections as possible thinking you might not subpoena him before election >> that's exactly right. based on my conversations not just about giuliani but other trump advisors, mueller has a window before the election to issue his report on the president's conduct and they are ware if the president doesn't sit down with mueller, they wonder if mueller can finish a report on the president's intent. was it criminal intent or not when he made certain decisions or had certain actions as president of the united states and at this point giuliani is advising his client, the chief executive to not sit down. the president says to his advisors he wants to sit down but actions speak louder than words. at this point they are delaying. >> yeah. if the president wants something he gets it. if he wants to tweet something dumb that's counter to anything that might benefit him in this case he does it. so he knows better, i think. robert costa thank you. we'll be reading your latest

reporting in "the washington post". gene robinson, thank you as well. your newco aluminum on trump's rally rhetoric is a must read. still ahead, robert mueller got rick gates to talk and talk he did. what the former trump campaign aide testified to in paul manafort's criminal trial. we have a live report from outside the courthouse next on "morning joe". this is not a bed.

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through wire transfers using income and accounts that manafort asked him not disclose. the former trump deputy campaign chair also acknowledged crimes he committed on his own behalf like embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars from manafort and failing to report income. gates reached a deal with robert mueller in february agreeing to cooperate for an exchange of a guilty plea. charges against gates carry a possible ten year sentence but prosecutors could recommend less time than that. joining us now, two experts who have been watching the manafort trial from inside the courtroom, former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor, barbara mcquaid and nbc news intelligence and national security reporter ken delaney. barbara, let me start with you. the vibe, the atmosphere in the courtroom as you had these two men who worked closely together for so many years one turning on the other. >> there was daefl buzz in the

courtroom when the government called rick gates to come in. he seemed visibly nervous. he spoke very quickly. he did not make eye contact with paul manafort as you said. there were several side bars during his testimony and he was sort of just sit awkwardly and look straight ahead. paul manafort looked directly at rick gates. during the testimony it came out their dynamic was different than i had appreciated before. he described it as very much an employer-employee relationship. rick gates had met paul manafort when he was an intern and said they never socialized together the only time he went to paul manafort's house was when he reported there to do work for him. tension between. but he's getting his story out. >> did the prosecution get what they wanted out of rick gates. did he present stories, evidence that would incriminate paul manafort? >> absolutely, willie. they are only at the beginning. gates, while he was certainly near vow was a pretty compelling

witness even though he was sort of a disreputable character and got up there immediately started to admit to crimes. he's college educated. prosecution pointed out he served honorably in the virginia national guard and described, you know, working for paul manafort for ten years. he started as an intern in the '90s out of william and bhaer the former lobbying firm and came on board in 2006. the other witnesses in the case have given the jury a glimpse into the wave of criminality. gates is taking them all the way down the cave on a rope and showing them all the corners. key speak to manafort's state of mind, talk about what manafort said and why he did these things. he told the jury that manafort wanted to pad his income. that's why he was evading the tax. that's why they had the secret bank account. so far he's been a compelling witness. he admitted to some crimes that

prosecutors didn't know about including embezzling from manafort. while they were committing crimes together, gates was stealing from manafort by padding expense accounts, willie. >> barbara, one of the things ken brought up there wasn't an especially close relationship between gates and manafort. and i was talking to a reporter last night that followed the campaign extraordinarily closely, and what he just could never figure out in real-time was why after manafort was fired that his underling gates remain there and his conclusion had always been that he was the conduit to russia, even after manafort was gone, because no campaign would have kept an understandli underling of campaign manager that was fired. gates survives not through the end of the campaign but also into the transition as well. it's fascinating.

has anybody inquired about that? do you know if there's been any questions in the overall investigation? >> in this case, of course, they are focused on the income tack and bank fraud charges. i imagine his testimony will relate solely to that. he did admit with when he talked about the crimes to which he pled guilty one of the crimes was the foreign agent registration act conspiracy with paul manafort. i imagine his cooperation with robert mueller, far exceeds the scope of what we'll hear about in his testimony in this trial. there's the trial that will occur in september in washington, d.c. with manafort with some of those charges may come in to play. we may get more of a glimpse into that. but to get his deal and he said yesterday he could be facing potential ten years but if he does everything he's supposed to do he could get as low as probation. he's got to tell everything and put all the cards on the table. i'm sure he'll be confronted with every e-mail and surveillance cut obtained through the foreign intelligence

surveillance court that exists. if that's true he'll no doubt be confronted about it and may be the key to breaking that connection. >> isn't it strange that, again, you know, corey lewandowski is fired, manafort comes in, all of i had people are basically tossed out. this happens in every presidential campaign. manafort is fired. and yet his underling, his flunky, the guy that is carrying around his backpack, the guy who is his employee, strangely enough he stays around the campaign despite the fact that trump doesn't like him, makes him sit outside of offices where the actual critical meetings are taking place, but he remains there not only through the end of the campaign, he remains there through the transition and the inauguration. >> well, joe, that's something i'm intrigued by just because there's been so much reporting that various members of the trump campaign team like michael

flynn were so interested in padding their own wallets during the campaign and setting themselves up for business afterwards because they didn't necessarily believe that donald trump was going to win and so ken, something i'm curious about, how much could this trial potentially get into the financial activities of paul manafort during the fall of the trump campaign after he had officially left the campaign but not necessarily the orbit of donald trump? >> reporter: the bank fraud, tax fraud, schemes did extend into that period. there was a loan he obtained from a guy on the promise of a position within the trump organization or the trump administration. he ended up on an advisory board this guy did. that's alleged in the indictment. that may come up at trial. i want to point out, guys, in

terms of gates and manafort and their connections to the whole russia investigation, they were in the loop on george papadopoulos campaign aide who pleaded guilty trying to broker a meeting between putin and trump. there's a lot left to be told about what they knew between campaign and russia. they were the most russia connected of any of these advisors. manafort came to the campaign working for free, flat broke, right. scrambling for cash. in debt. and the question is how desperate was he what was he willing do if the russians put the finger on him and asked him to help in their interference campaign. >> thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, a massive wildfire in northern california has now burned an area the size of los angeles. it is the biggest blaze in state history and president trump is blaming bad environmental laws

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. a raging wildfire in northern california has become the largest in modern state

history and president trump is weighing in on the firefighting process. he tweeted last night california wildfires are being magnified and being made worse. it's being diverted into the fantastic ocean. must also tree clear to stop fire from spreading. as the "los angeles times" points out the current wildfire situation is unrelated to water supplies or environmental laws. fire agencies vent been complaining about lack of water. major reservoirs are near the worst fire zones, and all are at or near their historic levels. the president also tweeted yesterday governor jerry brown must allow the free flow of the vast amounts of water coming from the north and foolishly being diverted into the pacific ocean. can be used for fires, farming

and everything else. according to politico trump's comments may be referencing an unrelated dispute between brown's administration and california republicans over how much of the state's water can be diverted to southern california farms. one california gop strategist told politico that trump's recent tweets don't show an elementary understanding of water policy and also don't really show any recognition of the people fighting these fires or the land that is being destroyed, and well beyond that. >> it is the politicalization even of forest fires. willie, this is a guy, again, he sees a basketball game, he sees the opportunity to divide, sees a football game, the opportunity to divide, see as tragedy in california, a forest fire and what does he see? an opportunity to divide. >> on the one hand it's comical

he's expert on forest firefighting. it's sad he's not recognizing seven people that died, a greatgrandmother and her two children that died finer, the firefighters fight firing. he's also confusing as usual one policy with another. i think what he's referring to as far as i can tell is a dispute between farmers about getting more irrigation into their farms and having nothing to do with fighting a forest fire. i guess it goes without saying he's inaccurate in this and doesn't quite know what he's talking about but that didn't stop him from weighing in. >> up next we had john mccain on the show shortly after donald trump questioned the senator's status as a war hero during the 2016 campaign. but newly unearth footage shows it wasn't the first time trump hit mccain for his service to the country. we'll show that to you next on "morning joe". you're headed down the highway

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i'm jason. senator black has been attacking me on guns. in army i know how to use and respect my rifle. in afghanistan i volunteered to be an extra gun in a convoy of unarmored suvs. i also believe in background checks so terrorists can't get their hands on one of these. aappro i approve this message because i want to see senator black do this. >> i believe that's what we call in the business a mike drop. that was a viral campaign from jason cantor calling for tougher background checks. he lost that race narrowly the former missouri secretary of state jason cannis running for r of kansas city. his new book called "outside the wire." jason, great to have you with us. let's talk about your decision to run for mayor. the election is not until next

year, june of 2019. there were a lot of people, including president obama who said he's my guy in missouri. >> very nice of him. >> and somebody who ought to run for president. what was the decision for you like not wait and jump into the mayor race. >> it's do everything you possibly can for your fellow citizen right now. that's hat i'm doing. i'm a fifth generation kansasian. i love my home town. that's why i decided to run for mayor. also why i decided to write "outside the wire" and why in the interests much using that platform for as much good as possible, for every copy we sold we donate to moms for safety. it's do what you can do for others. i tell a story about a young man i watched on his very first day in afghanistan get clearly visibly physically sick as he looked at the unarmored suv he needed to get in with me to do

its job. he sat in the seat behind me and i was worried he would throw up on me. i think about him all the time when we talk about tough choice. don't seem that tough compared to getting in a vehicle and going outside the wire. >> you enlisted in the army national guard after 9/11 as a response to that incident. was it a difficult choice for you because as i said there were a lot of people at the national level who look at you, my gosh in the state of missouri he almost knocked off the incumbent when donald trump was winning the state by almost 20 points. you are viewed as a rising star in the party. was it a tough call not to wait to the presidential election? >> an opportune to mayor of kansas city, have you been there? it's a waterfall place. it's a place where we had a lot of progress. we've had a lot of success. but i want to see that extend to everybody in the city. i want no matter where you live for you to be able to see it and to see it and feel it and so no.

that made it not at all a difficult choice for me. it's about -- i write in "outside the wire" about how a lot of people have something in their some day category. some day i'll do x. really i want people to understand don't wait for some day, make it now. making change is about getting outside of your comfort zone, and nobody ever made change from within their comfort zone. >> joe has a question for you. >> jason, you talk about your expenses in afghanistan, what you learned there and talking about politics. one of your first bit of advice taken from your time in a war zone is, if you want to change the world, you have to get outside the wire. explain that. >> so outside the wire is a term that we used overseas. it means to go off the safety of the base. and look, i've spent a lot more time figuratively outside the wire in politics than i even did literally in afghanistan because, you know, it's been

several years now. i just never have seen anybody -- like when people say there's tough choices that have to be made in politics. i think about explaining that to people who have risked their lives it just doesn't wash with me. i mean i came back, one of the stories i tell in the book is i came back, i had a meeting once i was in the state legislature with the speaker of the house who really wanted to brace me and get me to do exactly what he wanted. the whole time i was thinking about a meeting i had had with a corrupt afghan general and the border police, and i wasn't really sure i was going to get out of that meeting alive. once you have had had experiences like that, it is pretty difficult to look at elected politics in america and say, you know, this is really tough stuff. the truth is it is really not. >> yeah, not even in the same category. let's talk about your first campaign, what you learned there. you talk about, you say you need to hustle but you need to stay humble. explain that. >> yeah. i mean you put in every bit of work you can because voters

appreciate it. one of the stories i tell in "outside the wire" is that one of the very first doors i ever knocked on in my campaign, my first campaign, which was for state legislature, this fellow came to his front door and we were talking. it was really clear immediately that he and i disagreed on this issue he wanted to talk about, and i had just been a candidate for a short time and i did what i had seen politicians on tv do, and i start trying to spin him and tell him how really we agreed, and next thing i knew we were in an argument and it wasn't going well. i felt frustrated and desperate. i said, thanks for your time, i know what you believe. i walked off and he said to me, that makes sense, you can put a sign in my yard, i will vote for you. that's how i learned that voters don't expect you to believe everything they believe. they want to know you believe what you're saying, and they will for gigive you for believi something different if they know you care about them. >> you are one of the most prominent and politically

successful afghanistan vets in america. where are you on the continued u.s. involvement in the war in afghanistan more than a de acad after you left? >> we were talking about how we had both been at the same place several years ago. look, we have to recognize the fact if you were to go back to the beginning of the american story and, you know, write it from the beginning, you wouldn't write afghanistan as the longest war in american history, it is just a fact. that's where i start from, is that i grew up comfortably. i grew up in a way where no politician could make a decision that would take food off my family's table. first time i was on the receiving end of bad decisions made by politicians that negatively affected me, i was in the back seat of an unarmored vehicle in afghanistan. now there are american kids there who likely don't remember 9/11. as you mentioned, 9/11 is what spurred me to go into the military. there are americans there who

don't remember that likely. that's something that has to be at the top of our mind as we make decisions about our commitments there. >> so should we draw down? should we get american troops out of afghanistan? >> our strategy clearly needs to be about unwinding and reaching that point. i think what's tragic, and one of the things i point out in the book that kind of shaped my view of politics, is that, you know, so much of this can be traced back to a very politically-driven decision by karl rove and others to invade iraq. i was in afghanistan in '06, you know, e-mailing with my friends from officer training who were in iraq at that time and saying they weren't sure exactly why they were there. it diverted an enormous amount of resources. >> mika? >> jason, i'm just curious as you seek to serve, your second attempt, and it is very much appreciated. >> thanks. >> politically. what are you hearing from people? we're in an age of sort of devalued truth, where there's now arguments about what is

real, what is fact, what is fiction, and what comes out of the president's mouth and rumors that are being passed around. what are you hearing from people about any of that? do they even care or what do they want? >> you know, and this is one of the things i talk about in the book because, you know, i got 220,000 votes from folks who voted for president trump and for me, even though the only thing we agree on is we're both afraid of sharks. and so i do hear from a lot of people who voted for him, and what they generally say to me is this. like back in 2016, what they were saying, the persuadable voters, they were saying, look, i don't like him, i don't like the way he treats people, but he made himself very personally successful. they weren't like, so that's great. they were like, i'll give it a try. what he this say is, i still don't like him, still don't like the way he treats people, and he never really switched from making -- from doing that for himself to doing it for the country. the way people express this is they say, i don't like all of

the tweeting. when you dig deeper, what they're saying is, he never really followed through on his promise, which is to put the country ahead of himself, which, you know, is a shame obviously. but it is why he's just burroing down into his own base and not getting outside of it. he refuses to get outside of his own echo chamber. >> for sure. the book is "outside the wire." democratic kansas city mayoral candidate jason cantor. thank you for being to this morning. >> thank you. still ahead, two decades ago mike pence made the case for impeaching a president with, quote, bad moral habits. that applied to bill clinton. so what about donald trump? plus, we'll go live to ohio as one of the candidates running in the special election there tries to clean up a last-minute gaffe in the dead-locked race. >> you can call it a gaffe. he actually insulted people in the county that's going to be casting the most votes tonight.

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bush white house, elise jordan. editor of "the washington post", eugene robinson. senior writer at "politico", jake sherman. we will start with new weekly tracking numbers from gallup. it finds 54% disapprove of the job president trump is doing compared to 41% who approve of his performance. cnbc's john horowood analyzed the support and found in the data whites with no college degree approved of the president's job 58% to 39%, while 29% of all other americans approv approved, and 66% disapprove. the numbers seem to be shifting a bit for the president. >> there's always been -- we talked about it for some time, that there's always been a bit of a narrow casting, but this is about as narrow casting as it gets. willie, all i can say for donald trump and republicans who are

hoping, like the special election in ohio tonight, the republicans who are hoping he will somehow get them over the finish line even in strongly republican district like the ohio 12, they just better hope that their small slice of the electorate comes out because, i mean, donald trump is sacrificing just about every other group in america for this one group of white, non-college-educated voters that, again, there just aren't enough to get him over the top or to get his candidates over the top in a lot of elections. >> yeah, and that gallup number of 41% approval is about where he has been over the course of his presidency, but it is the cross tab you are looking at that is so interesting. remember, he won white, non-college voters by almost 40%, so it certainly makes up the core of his base, gene robinson, and those are the people we see at the rallies,

that is his hard-core support. it remains to be seen when he intervenes in the elections like ohio 12 or endorses chris covac running in kansas, it remains to be seen how powerful he is in the races. >> yeah, what we have learned so far from the special elections and the primaries is he is very powerful inside the republican party. he has 89% support among republicans. so it is very difficult if you are going to run as a republican in a primary to buck trump. on the other hand he is very unpopular among your general -- among americans in general, and democrats have been doing a whole lot better than one would expect, than anyone imagined from in these elections. we shouldn't be talking about this ohio special election. this is a safe republican seat, and we're talking about it

because it is a trumpian-backed candidate up against a democrat who is a moderate who could win. >> you know, mike barnacle, also, again, when you talk about off-year elections, what is so extraordinarily important is the intensity, because most people don't go out and vote in midterm elections. you are lucky if you get a third in the primary and maybe 50% of the voters when you get to the general election. but there was an article this morning that i read talking about how -- i think it was "the washington post", talking about in ohio these are rock-ribbed republicans who voted for trump, and you had the reporter knocking on doors, and one lifelong, rock-ribbed republican said -- they sundasked who theye going to be voting for and she

said, well, i support trump, we voted for trump, but i hate him. something along those lines, i can't stand him, he's a jerk. we're hearing that more and more. i'm hearing that more and more from the people i talk to who voted for trump. they voted for him, they're embarrassed by him, they don't like him. that's not exactly the secret sauce to get people out to vote in midterm elections, and i just believe this ambivalence at some point -- and i believe just hating nancy pelosi at some point is not ongoing to going t to help the candidates because nancy pelosi is not running america. >> you know, joe, there's a tragic aspect of the numbers that we just indicated in the poll. the fact that he has overwhelming support among largely whites with a high school degree, these are people

who need a president standing up for them more than most people in america. and he goes to these rallies, and if you listen to the rallies -- i know it is discomforting to listen to his language in the rallies, but he doesn't propose anything to help them. instead, he relies on grievance. he relies on trying to cement the divisions that already exist in america. he relies on strengthening those divisions. he relies on talking about race. he relies on talking about really hate, and these people who show up are victims of a con. not all of them are racists. some perhaps are, there's no doubt about that, but they're victims of a con. she need a leader -- they need a leader, a president who will do something about their lives, to improve their lives. that's the tragedy. >> you know, gene, victims of a con, and what i have never

really understood for somebody who is in economic trouble, somebody who is struggling to get their kids through school, somebody who is struggle to keep a job, somebody who is struggling to get good, decent, fair wages and the ability to take your kids to a doctor that's not an emergency room visit at 11:00 at night, i'm not quite so -- i just don't understand why some of these people out in the crowds, they're conned by a guy who talks about ims hhimself all th time, lies about himself all the time, inflates what he has done all the time. then, of course, on top of that he has convinced a lot of these people that their biggest problem, their biggest problem is the media. >> yeah. >> right. yeah, we're the enemy of the people. >> if that's their biggest problem, that's interesting. >> yeah.

and, look, he is, as mike said, it is a con. it has been an effective con. the other thing he does before these audiences is make ridiculous promises that are just -- that will never be kept. you know, he's bringing back the steel industry. they're opening eight new plants. well, that's just simply not true. it is not happening, yet he says it and people applaud and this and that, and he's very skillful at making -- drawing these cultural and racial lines and essentially putting people in the position of being with him or with ms-13 basically. it is a demagogue's tool kit that he uses, and he uses it effectively. >> and, elise jordan, to an extent he chips away at his own

credibility when he has policies like the separation policy. he talks about the wall. he talks about immigration in the most, quite frankly, he degrading way to people, but some of that is appreciated by the base for whatever reasons. having said that, isn't it fair to say the policy of taking children away from their families has definitely hurt the president? nobody likes that. i can't imagine that would poll well. >> well, and, mika, especially women that i've spoken with who are trump supporters don't support the child separation policy, even if they support donald trump. so john kasich himself pointed out this weekend that suburban women are going to be really key in this 12th district and in picking who the next congressman is going to be, and so i really am curious what the suburban women of columbus, ohio are going to decide to do today in light of donald trump focusing

more on any distraction that he can throw at the wall to try to turn people away from the real issues that are affecting men and women in this country, namely the families and children who have been separated by his inhumane policy, but also health care. and looking at what has donald trump done to actually improve health care for men and women of the 12th district. >> yes. >> jake sherman, it is very interesting that when lam won his shock election several months ago we were talking about the suburbs of pittsburgh. now we're talking about another midwestern town, the suburbs of columbus, ohio. and if you look at one area where republicans have been hurt the most, where donald trump has lost the most support, the reason why he's sitting at 39%, 40%, 41%, depending on whether you believe gallup or quinnipiac, isn't so much of that the bleeding support that

he's seen when it comes to suburban voters, which used to be the absolute bedrock of any republican presidential campaign? >> yeah, it is a huge problem, and the majority will be won and lost in the suburbs, there's no question about that. i think the important thing to point out here and what we need to wrap our head around is if this district is competitive, r-plus seven die, a district that the last two congressmen from the district won by a dozen points every single time, if this is competitive then there are 80 seats in america that are competitive just like this. there are 80 republican seats in that kind of range that could be on the table come november. so democrats are seeing extremely rapidly their political map expand, to a point where they could -- and we don't know. we are just talking based on

available information. we could see a massive amount of seats flip if a district like this is competitive. there are suburbs obviously all over the country that are less republican than this that could go. so we're seeing just -- it almost doesn't even matter who wins tonight, because it is competitive and that shows a really huge change in the political fortunes of the democratic and republican parties. >> and we'll have a live report from the battleground district straight ahead. plus, two throwbacks from decades ago that have a special sort of resonance today. what mike pence was saying about presidential morality in the late 1990s. >> let me get, let me guess, let me guess. it is different than what he is saying now. >> yes. >> what a shock. >> very. >> situational morality. >> and what donald trump had to say about john mccain right around the same time. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> well, once again we are talking about heat from the west coast to the southeast, to the

southwest to the northwest. the only people out of the equation are in the middle of the country. the fire news out of california continues to be eye-opening. the mendocino complex fire now the biggest fire in california history. if that sounds familiar, last year the thomas fire became the biggest fire in california history, and those records go back to about 1932. so pretty impressive stuff as there's a lot of tinder because of the drought over the last decade and the intense heat over the summer, firefighters have their work cut out. 31 million people in the northeast under heat advisories, similar to yesterday. now we are watching the expansion of the heat in the northwest, and there's plenty of smoke from northern california blowing into oregon, too. not only is it hot with excessive heat warning, the air quality is horrendous right now for anyone with respiratory problems. 25 million people in the desert southwest under advisories and warning for the heat. raleigh will be up there about

100. hot in areas like atlanta, too, where it will feel like 99 degrees. we continue with our sweltering summer. it gets to this point and you're kind of like, how long until fall? i don't want to bring on winter, but i would like it more comfortable for everyone. new york city under the heat add viedoradd -- advisory. you will probably feel like 98 to 100 degrees this afternoon. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. ninety-six hundred roads named "park" in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but allstate agents know that's where the similarity stops. if you're on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the washoe zephyr could damage your siding. and that's very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands? booking a flight doesn't have to be expensive.

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some recently unearthed writings by vice president mike pence discovered by cnn and columns from the late 1990 recently brought to light, pence argued that a president should be held to the highest moral standards and removed from office if not. >> what? >> citing then-president bill clinton's affair with a white house intern and public lies as an example. in one piece he wrote, if you and i fall into bad moral habits

we can harm our families, employers and our friends. the president of the united states can incinerate the planet. >> wow. >> seriously, the very idea we ought to have at or less than the same moral standards placed on the chief executive than we place on our next-door neighbor is ludicrous and dangerous. throughout our history we have seen the presidency as repository of highest hopes, ideals and values. to demand less is to do an injustice to the blood that bought our freedoms. >> wow. >> geez. >> pence adds in another column referring to clinton again. >> preach, preach. >> the president's repeated lies to the american people in this matter compound the case against him as they demonstrate his failure to protect the institution of the presidents as the inspiring supreme symbol of all that is highest in our american i deals. leaders affect the lives of families far beyond their own private life. >> amen. preach on, brother. >> mike pence at the time when he wrote those was a radio host in indiana.

posted it to his website. if you superimpose it to 2018 they take on a new meaning. >> he was a radio host? >> he was. >> and now he has fallen to vice president with donald trump. those are words to live by. once again, restores your faith in the one enduring aspect of american politics, hypocrisy. >> yes. >> he is a living symbol of hypocrisy, mike pence, sadly. >> i guess we are holding our neighbors the moral standard of maybe don't creep on 15, 16, 17-year-old girls backstage at the miss teen usa pageant. that's who mike pence thinks has great enough moral standards to be in the white house these days i guess. >> don't pay-off porn stars perhaps. >> you have also, elise, if you read what franklin graham wrote during the clinton impeachment time, it was just as self-righteous and just as sickening given the current

stand that he's -- he's in right now. but for mike pence, again, i keep wondering, when is mike pence going to speak out. you know, donald trump and mike pence and the republican party supported roy moore when with all of those accusations were coming forward in that campaign. to go from where he went in 1999 to where he is right now, not that long later, not that much later, shocking turnaround, that now he is defending this guy. you have others saying, well, it is just between him and his wife and god. it is not what he was saying, it is not what franklin graham was saying, it is not what a lot of republicans who are defending donald trump were saying in 1999. >> but there's this attitude that i heard frequently justifying the current sins because of the past sins. well, because he did it, it is okay for him to do it now.

we just don't care because he got away with it, so why not let our guy get away with it, too, which i think that shows just a very hollow core of your actual beliefs. >> coming up on "morning joe", donald trump's attack on john mccain's status as a war hero wasn't a one-off from the 2016 campaign. he was peddling that message back in 1999. that moment from the archives is next on "morning joe." ♪ philadelphia freedom ♪ from the day that i was born dear foremothers, your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... commanded armies...

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well, the great honor of my life was to serve in the company of heroes. i'm not a hero, but those who were my senior ranking officers, people like colonel bedet, congressional medal of honor winner, those who inspired us to do things we otherwise wouldn't have been capable of doing, those are the people i think he owes an apology to. >> that was senator john mccain on "morning joe" back in 2015 with his first public response to trump mocking his years as a p.o.w. it turns out that wasn't the first time trump made those comments. jake sherman, you posted a clip on twitter yesterday of dan rather interviewing trump back in 1999, and it teeturedfeature at trump's trip to california where he tried to build support among members of the reform party for a possible presidential bid. here was the reaction to the sales pitch, plus something

trump said 19 years ago that he famously echoed during the 2016 campaign. take a look. >> i was disappointed because i felt that he -- i felt he was very attacking of other members of the party, which i thought was very disrespectful. >> i think he came. i think you heard what he had to say, and we're excited. >> i think he's a con man and ought to go back to new york. >> why? >> because he's coming out here, just trying to destroy our party. that's the way i look at it. >> the way trump looks at it, he is at least better than everyone else in the race beginning with john mccain. >> i mean he was captured. >> and you flew combat missions. >> does being captured make you a hero? i don't know, i'm not sure. >> wow. jake sherman, so we thought it was the first time he said it in the past few years. it is a horrific thing to say, and it seems like the public's relationship with trump has really transformed as his presence, obviously, has become all the more serious on the

world stage. but he said it so many years ago. >> yeah. i'm glad my youtube fishing is good for something. yeah, no, it is obviously fascinating, and the president has, despite people urging him in his party, he has continued to throw shade at john mccain about his vote last year, about a year ago right now, against repealing the health care law. so it has been something, obviously a consistent thread, his disdain for john mccain going back to 1999 when he first thought about running for president. >> you know, willie, this bears repeating. donald trump dodged the draft. he got, what, four, five deferments. >> for his little feet. >> for bone spurs. you know, those little feet, it is hard to carry around all of that weight i guess. he's got bone spurs. but he is sitting there, making fun of a man who was flying very early in the war, got shot down

on combat missions. i know a lot of great american heroes like bud day who did and a lot of other great men who did during the vietnam war, and, you know, he carries those scars to this day. again, as everybody knows but it has to be repeated again, the north vietnamese were going to let john mccain leave and go home because his father was an important man in the united states military, and he refused. he wouldn't go until the rest of his band of brothers said, until they allowed all of them to go, and he didn't do it. he stayed there. he stayed behind. >> i hadn't seen that clip from 1999. i thought when we heard it from on that stage three years ago during the presidential campaign it was maybe something impulsive that he came out with in reaction to john mccain, but apparently it is a deeply-held belief he has had for 20 years

or so now. yeah, of course, all of the things you have said are true, and a side-by-side comparison of the two men is preposterous. remember, at that moment when he said it during the campaign that was one where we all said by conventional rules of politics this guy is in trouble. the front page of the "new york post" said this guy was finished. when he survived that and his numbers went up after that, that was one of the first signs we had that his candidacy would be different from all of the others. >> coming up on "morning joe", a live report from ohio where the polls are open in a special election. will a perceived gaffe have an impact. steve kornacki will join us with his live analysis next on "morning joe."

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it is election day for

ohio's 12th congressional district and polls show the race is now in a dead heat. with us from columbus, ohio, msnbc correspondent garett haack. what can we expect today? we expect a close race which is news worthy. it is a district donald trump won by 11 points. it used to be won in the mid 60s. we expect a single-digit race with the possibility that a democrat could represent this district here, basically suburbs and exurbs around columbus, ohio, for the first time in my lifetime and for the first time in his lifetime. the democratic candidate here is only 31 years old. what you have here is this relatively familiar formula we've seen in some of the special elections where you have the president has essentially opened the door here by firing up a democratic base who just doesn't like him and hasn't had

much to be excited about here in a very long time, and democrats hope by turning off some of the moderate republicans, this is typical john kasich, mitt romney, john mccain territory here. i have been talking to some of the voters who say they really can't get behind trump, and that lingers. that sort of has this overhang on troy balderson, the republican candidate here. danny o'connor had all of the momentum. he got help last night in the form of a good old-fashioned campaign gaffe by balderson who was on the stump, last event of the day. he said, we don't want somebody from franklin county representing us here. he was in one of the more rural parts of the state. frankl franklin county is the biggest county in the state. democrats seize on it. balderson tried to clean it up this morning. >> i'm excited about the day, excited to represent the 12 it congressional district. it is a big day and we worked hard to get here. at american pride last night did you say you didn't want someone from franklin county? >> i'm going to work for this

whole congressional district is what i'm going to work for. >> do you want to elaborate on that at all? >> i'm going to work for the whole district. >> all right. >> we will go anywhere and talk to issues that matter around the kitchen table, how you save for retirement and health costs. there's no community i won't address. >> this guy is going to win. >> reporter: yeah, that's danny o'connor at the end of this. he has to play error-free baseball to win in a district like this, but he has run a tight campaign. republicans got excited when he appeared to walk back the pledge not to vote for nancy pelosi for speaker should he get elected. he came back out and said, absolutely i'm not going to support her. he has kept his distance from everything washington, and it seems to be working for him, but, again, it will be very close tonight. >> thanks so much. greatly appreciate it. it looks like a fascinating race there. willie geist saying that, well,

basically disrespecting franklin county would be a lot like starting your presidential campaign saying, you know what? we're going to win this race for president and we sure as heck don't need any of those iowa people helping us or any of those new hampshire goons representing us. >> it turns out franklin county is where most of the people are. national political correspondent and msnbc, steve kornacki. you will be at the big board tonight for the special election. >> yes. >> as garett said, the president won this district by 11 points but lost franklin county. >> it is never smart for a politician to sound that way, but interesting when you get someone like balderson bashing the franklin county part, it speaks to a massive cultural in

2016 political divide in the district and mirrors the country. you seen the far eastern part of the district, that's where balderson is from, what he represents. culturally, it is light years from columbus and the immediate columbus suburbs. you see a third of the voters are in that geographically hard part that swung hard against donald trump. it was virtually a tie in 2012, franklin county right there, it was virtually a tie. it turned into a 20-point clinton win in 2016. that's the part of the country, the up scale, college-educated, suburban, white collar professional. they don't like trump. muskegon county where balderson is from, that's the other part of the country we talk about. in 2012 barack obama won that portion of the district over mitt romney. four years later, donald trump by nearly 30 points takes it. >> incredible. >> that huge swing we saw in that part of the country is embodied by that half of the district. it is almost the population, it is not quite 50/50, but it is

close to an even split in the district. you are getting a measure of the two erk inamerica, a measure of they reacted to trump after two years and a measure of the enthusiasm tonight. >> boy, steve, what a measurement, and it is a microcosm of the republican party's problems. i had relatives from columbus in arlington heights and been there time and time again. that is the center of america. it is the heartbeat of america, and that -- i mean growing up, all of my relatives there were the most republican of republicans. like as rock-ribbed, red republican as it gets. that's just not the case anymore. i mean they voted for mccain, they voted for romney, they loved reagan, they voted for w., and none of my relatives that i know there, all of these lifelong republicans voted for trump. >> and you're talking about the area close to columbus, you could add the name john kasich

for congress two districts. this was his district or a version of the 12th district. but what you are describing is the change demographically, the change culturally in the republican party based on the appeal of donald trump, based on the backlash to donald trump. it is really embodied in this district. we talked about donald trump doing worse really than any republican we had ever seen in 2016 with suburban, traditionally republican voters. folks that vote the pocketbook a lot, maybe more cultural centrist, they tend not to like taxes, that's columbus and the immediate suburbs around columbus. as we see in many ways they were repelled by donald trump. delaware county is a big suburban area that donald trump carried in 2016, but mitt romney was well over 20 point, trump got it by 16 points in 2016 and the flip side is the appeal donald trump has. it is that blue collar, non-college white we talked

about, ohio, pennsylvania, michigan, the eastern part of this district, like zansville, that's the heart of the trump surge in 2016. are we still seeing evidence of that trump surge or are we seeing evidence that the voters two years in are willing to go back towards the democrats? >> this could be fascinating. in a moment i'm going to read an interview that was done with paul ryan for the ""new york times"" magazine. let's stay in ohio. i'm looking at the president's tweets about the special election there. are people on twitter responding, you know, in kind to the president's outreach for this candidate? >> well, i think what we're seeing is that there are people who are still trump supporters, who excited about the fact that he uses twitter. they think it is his personal. they see him as brash. i have been in ohio and a lot of people that voted for him looked at him as a wild card, looked at him as someone who could be great for the country or sink us

all. i think now that they've had a year and a half, two years to look at the president to see how it operates as president, we'll figure out whether or not the people think that the economy the president keeps talking about is trickling down and helping their wages, while unemployment rates are historically low wages are still pretty low and people have a lot of bills they're trying to pay, that they hope the president can help them do that. i think it is going to come down to whether or not they like the president's personality because obviously he has been as brash as ever. >> you know, mika, she is so right. so much of donald trump's support or opposition is personal-driven. we're hearing more and more, i told you i talked to the three or four trump supporters this past weekend and just sat and lessened, a listened, and to a man they said, i don't like the guy, he is a jerk, i wouldn't want him at my house, but, hey, he is going to shake things up and i'm

supporting him because the economy is going well. this morning in the paper someone interviewed republicans in the district, knocked on a door and a woman came out who said, i supported trump but i hate him, i can't stand the guy. there's a lingering question on whether she will be voting republican tonight or voting democratic. again, in off-year elections so much is driven by intensity, getting people out to vote for a candidate. it is just -- you just wonder how compelling the case is to get out and vote for a republican when you have a president you support but you don't like. >> yeah. as i mentioned, joe, take a look at this. mark levovic posted a new profile of speaker paul ryan for "the new york times" magazine. it is entitled, this is the way paul ryan's speakership ends. in it, mark writes in part, quote, ryan made a determination after trump's election that to defy the president too forcefully would invite a

counter reaction. he tends to speak of the commander in chief as if he were sharing a coping strategy on dealing with a ritalin-deprived child. ryan prefers to tell trump how he feels in private. he joins a large group of trump's allies, many of whom who have worked in the administration, who insist they've shaped trump's thinking and behavior in private. the, trust-me-i've-stopped-this-from- being-worse approach. i can look myself in the mirror and say, i avoided that tragedy, i avoided this tragedy, i advanced this goal, i advanced this goal. i locked in on the world tragedy. it sets the mind reeling as to what thwarted tragedies ryan might be talking about. i asked for an example. no, i don't want to do that, ryan replied, that's more than i usually say. what's he talking about?

>> willie, if you are a conservative, you look and see a guy who made a fool of himself in north korea. claimed that he was going to hold the north koreans accountable. their nuclear program and their missile program is moving forward more quickly than it was even under barack obama. you look at outreach to vladimir putin. he has completely scrapped america's vision of europe and america's vision of the world and repelling vladimir putin. he has backed down time and again. the biggest deficits ever, the biggest spending sprees ever, the biggest national death ever, the things that paul ryan supposedly stood for. i'm not exactly sure what tragedies have been averted. >> well, he got his tax cut at the end of last year and he stood there and applauded with other republicans. that was the goal of at least going along with a lot of what president trump was doing that they didn't like so they could

achieve their legislative ends. but as joe says, these are core questions to a conservative like paul ryan, exploding deficits, these tariffs. he is on his way out of the door. you might think in an interview like this he might be more forthcoming in his thoughts over donald trump. what will paul ryan's legacy be in the next couple of years dealing with the president? >> paul ryan's legacy will be one of weakness. to joe's point, this is a man who espoused a strong belief in free trade, and you look at what donald trump is doing with the various trade wars he is engaging in. it falls hollow to say, oh, we averted this tragedy, we stopped this, we stopped that, you just have no idea what we're doing in private but we can't give you an example. it reminds me of ivanka trump's language. you could substitute her for her excuses for her father's

behavior, claiming she is influential in private but can't speak out in public. we see how donald trump respond to what is on television, respond to what is in the press. he cares about public critique. it is an incredibly weak tact for the so-called allies to fall back on that excuse. >> the argument we have heard from speaker ryan and ots is he had a job as speaker of the house to keep his delegation together, to keep republicans together, to achieve goals like the tax cut. we wondered time and again why he wouldn't occasionally step to the bank of the microphones and criticize the president or, when appropriate, to go after a policy or decision or comment that the president has made. our reporters follows these guys and women around the capital, they just look exhausted by the questions, responding to the daily tweet by the president. >> i think paul ryan as the leader reflect the psychology of what is made by every member of congress, and that is they look

back to their districts and look back in most cases to being more afraid of a republican primary challenge than of a general election opponent. >> except he didn't have one. he's on his way out. >> yeah, and, again, paul ryan talking about tragedies being averted, you have the biggest national debt ever, the biggest spending bill ever over the past year, the most protectionist president since hoover. you could go down the list, all of the racist statements, on and on, children at the border being seized from their mothers. what tragedies could have been averted? how could this have been worse? >> well, i think that's the key question, and paul ryan is really the only person and maybe other republicans in the room, are the only ones that can vouch for whether or not paul ryan was able to actually change this president's mind. from my reporting it seems as though there are people who come

in and try to influence the president, and time and time again if it is john kelly, reince priebus, sean spicer, all of these people come in thinking they will be the reminds everybody he's president and he's his own communications director. he's going to do what he wants to do. it's really hard for me to figure out what paul ryan is talking about without him being very clear. >> it makes no sense. i think when you are on the issues of racism and bigotry and abuse of children. if you can't have a voice, whether you're a democrat or a republican, you need to leave washington now. if you can't share your opinion on that, if you're too afraid, why are you there? steve kornacki and amesh, thank you. up next, one of the biggest concert events in the fall is weeks away. we'll explain.

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♪i believe, i really do believe that♪ ♪something's got a hold on me, yeah♪ ♪oh, it must be love ♪oh, something's got a hold on me right now, child♪ ♪oh, it must be love ♪let me tell you now, oh it must be love♪ the global citizen festival returning to central park on september 29. taking the stage this year, janet jackson, the weekend, cardy b and jamel monet.

hugh jackman will host. joining us now, the ceo of global citizen. this year's festival presented by citi which has within a long and proud partner. let's start with the ad budget first of all. the back page of "the new york times." another incredible lineup. the music is always great. it's sort of just to get a lot of eyeballs and people hearing the message. >> this is a hugely important year for us. obviously we lead into the midterms coming up in november so we're going to be encouraging young people to take action. we're going to be attacking some of the most important global issues of our time. we're going to be focusing on women's economic empowerment. making sure the 260 million

children out of school get adequate financing to get back into school. >> we focus on this almost every year. the white house proposing aid cuts which are so important around the world. >> we know that currently the united states gives about 1% of its budget in foreign aid. we want to resist any proposals to cut foreign aid. we've got great bipartisan support. have said, you know, across the board we don't want to see foreign aid cuts because we know the three legs of the school of international development are development, diplomacy and defense and we can't just invest in defense. we also need to invest in development and we need to make sure we have a safe world for the future. >> joe, i know you'll be screaming like a teenage girl for sean mendez, front row. >> always will. i'll be throwing my tie on stage. and anything else that may come

off during those heated moments. >> oh, please. >> you've focused for years on extreme poverty. there's obviously great challenges with budget cuts, 32% budget cuts here. also though, you're not just challenging the united states, you're challenging europe to step forward, to lean in, to continue the battle against extreme poverty. talk about how important that is. also talk about the games that have been made since five years ago, since you began this battle against extreme poverty worldwide. >> well, i should start by saying that global citizen is one part of a much broader movement that is embodied in the united states sustainable development goals. designed to end extreme poverty, tackle climate change and reduce inequality. so many great organizations around the world are at the forefront of combating the scourge of extreme poverty. since global citizen started seven years ago, millions of

actions have been taken, leading to over $37 billion announced on global citizen stages that will affect the lives of some 2 billion people by 2030 so we're really proud of the impact that's been had. in fact, in my lifetime, extreme poverty is halved from 62% of the world's population, down to less than 10%. but there are still 750 million people living in extreme poverty which is far too many in this world of plenty. >> jennifer, as i said, citi's been there from the beginning. what's the role of a large private company like yours in this fight against global poverty? >> we've been partnered are hugh and his team at global citizen for years since the inception. and for us, it's just -- it's critically important that as a brand and as a large company that we're standing for issues that matter, that have impact. and, again, with global citizen,

the partnership's been very powerful and long standing. given that we share some common goals and collective goals. enabling progress has been a mission that citi's stood for for almost two centuries. working with global citizen allows us to amplify that message. >> not a bad partner sitting next to you. >> no, not a bad partner. >> literally citi's been with us since the very beginning. thank you. >> we're happy to be along for this journey. >> msnbc exclusively will air the global citizen festival saturday september 29th at 3:00 p.m. eastern. you can go to nbcnews.com/global citizen to learn how you can take action yourself and earn points for free tickets to that big and excellent concert in new york city coming up next month. hugh, jennifer, thank you so much for what you're doing. mika. >> absolutely wonderful. and as we close the show, we

have final thoughts and i'll hand it to you, joe. >> i just want to wish you happy birthday, to a guy who was a united states marine. he spent his life prosecuting the bad guy, going after the mob, going after drug syndicates, protecting americans from the scourge of radical islamic terrorism. >> wow. >> and now he's fighting to stop russia and an ex-kgb agent from undermining american democracy. happy birthday, robert mueller. and thank you for your service to america. >> and thank you, joe. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today. starting with paul manafort's former associate takes the stand describing years of illegal ti