trial. as soon as it comes out, it will be here on msnbc and covering it either way. interview with former teacher of the year who won a big primary. we are out of time now. up next is "hardball" with chris matthews. >> reality bites. let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i am chris matthews in washington. the star of an old time tv show once put it, what a revolten development this is. finally meeting his match in omarosa manigault newman. the woman she learned everything

she knows about playing the game from mr. trump is now out to fire him. harkens back to the days of hamilton and bure. competition, people duking it out. a role omarosa embraced even from earlier days on the apprentice. >> heidi was fantastic. and i haven't always been a fan of heidi. >> that was a best compliment. i have no class. >> i have been candid with heidi. >> that was the worst compliment i have ever heard. >> it is president trump who is

in the cast while omarosa is directing. she dared us all to stay tune. >> i would say this. if you see me in a fight with a bear, pray for the bear. >> transformation from villain to whistle blower. one former white house official told axio's john than swashe ma purest of all -- two were kindred spirits from the start writing the future president was fascinated by her, he was fascinated by her self-absorption and nastiness. >> it sounds like omarosa and

trump deserve each other. the problem with being donald trump isn't just being donald trump. it is the lesser trumps around you. the versions of yourself that you create. the echoes of yourself that you inspire. they'll devour you in the end. trump has tried everything to shank omarosa loose. the legal threats, the insults, the nicknames. he attempted to change the narrative by retreating to his fall back. he found his latest glistening object revoking the security clearance of john brennan. and nine others who have been critical of him. i am joined by ashley parker reporter for the "washington

post." and katy tur. david k. johnson author of the making of donald trump. i want to start with zerlinna. this reality tv game by guess who, taking on mr. reality tv and doing it in a way that has kept our attention on every medium, newspaper, cable show, she has dominated for almost a week. she has some leg left. a couple of days dominating. she seems to have found a news hall. your thoughts. >> i think she has been strategic from the beginning. picking the month of august to put a book out in a slow summer

news week was very smart. if you think of how many reality stars there, there are a lot. and only a few that you can name them by just their first name without even her last name. we know her by omarosa. 15 years ago she was on the first season of "the apprentice," and still talking about her today. she is doing something right. she has staffed other people doing interviews. she is prepared. and on message. every time they call her a liar, she presents a tape and receipts, and says no, you are a liar. >> katey, he would say, little marco, and the guy throws water

around. she delights in it. hit me again. come at me again. i have some tapes for you. keep at it. she wants this fight every day squoirks y. >> you know, i would say ashley parker is the best trump reporter. but in terms of omarosa, she clearly knows his game. she studied under him. and clearly prepared in whatever he throws at her. it speaks to the larger environment that donald trump creates. it was the same in the campaign. he does inspire this blind loyalty and we saw that from omarosa when she was doing the campaign and in this white house. nothing but praise for him. but at the same time those people who are devoted to him, at some point when they no longer have anything to offer, no longer useful, they are aware

that his loyalty to them runs out. he is more than willing to throw you under the bus. that is why people say, people like michael cohen or omarosa say they record conversations of donald trump. that is why it is not unheard of because you have to have a record of what he says. you want to have a record of what you say as well because you never know how he is going to misrepresent you. >> a peace corps pal once said people don't mind being used, they mind being discarded. you reported today that long time trump soeobservers say it a measure of his rage. he did choose the word and it hurt trump as much as anything he ever said. it diminished him, that's what i

think. >> it absolutely did. there was a lot of commentary, there was racist to call her a dog. >> he doesn't call white guys dogs. >> there is that level of criticism which is something that he is grappling with, and people say it is not racist, he insults everyone. this is not helpful language for him to be using. and it is problematic. >> let me talk about her, as a pugilist. she has a face that is attractive, but a face that dramatizes her thinking, a dramatic face. i think you watching, what is she going to do. >> she is a great reality

television villainous. donald trump loved this about her. he watched omarosa do it. you have to keep in mind, the only point he has turned on her is when she turned those skills back on him. >> tell us about trump and his history with dealing with african american women and in your face competitors. this one seems to be bugging him. resorted to nicknames, a dog. comparing her to an animal. going to sue her some violation back in the campaign. and going after poor john brennan to change the subject. trying everything to loosen the grip. >> she is playing her cards extremely well. she has managed to be in the news for a week.

but we may see things as she pops up in the future. she got 15 years of fame. >> back on this network tomorrow. she is going to start again, you are right. >> made it clear that she has lots of tapes. we don't know if those tapes go back to before the show, the show of the white house. advancing her role, i agree with the other guests as a villainous character and she is donald trump's match. he and other people in the white house should be worried about what she has got. >> how can she do this so well when all the people who ran against donald trump, especially on the republican side, not hillary clinton, but all of those men, seem to be unable to take him on.

>> hold on. i am going to answer this. she has trained under him. a version of him. i won't go as far to say she is going to be more successful. is she going to change the mind of anyone who voted for donald trump, i'm not so sure. the version of donald trump that she is putting out will is the version of donald trump that everybody knows. i think the president gives pretty easy cover for his supporters by painting her as a liar and an opportunist. i am not sure whose mind she changes. >> women in the suburbs do not want to vote for an out-and-out racist. >> i am not sure what she has shown. what she has shown from what we haven't already seen from the president himself. a lot of this is something, i mean omarosa has said

spectacular things including the president knew about the wikileak e-mails, before they came out. >> in her interview on the daily show, she said she had been instructed by her lawyers not to give trump more ammunition by giving him the attention he loves. >> there is one way to shut donald trump down. don't give him the oxygen. and the oxygen comes from the clicks, the likes, the shocks, the discussions. >> several toll him to ignore her and that engaging would only boost her book sales. trump said privately that first lady melania trump advising him to stay above it. >> in order to sell a book, she has come out with a series of tapes and in many ways seems to

have outsmarted the president who has taken the bait and gone out and tweeted directly out of her. >> well bryan knows how to sell books. let me get back to ashley. the reporting on trump amazes me. i don't know how you get this stuff. you guys laugh at me when i say they are not going to leak anymore. how do you find that out? this is trade craft, i know. >> without getting into sources and methods, look, there is a number of people in that west wing in that white house who clearly talk to reporters and another thing to keep in mind is the president talks to people. one thing general kelly came in and tried to put these controls on the president and it didn't work. the president late at night in the morning, at the residence, they are calling friends he is calling friends and they are talking to reporters.

>> what do we know about the white house staff and the way they kibits around all of this. omarosa may have tapes on everybody she worked with. >> politico is saying the white house staffers are terrified of what tape omarosa may be about to release next. katrina pierson said she never heard -- and herself saying he did it, he is just embarrassed by it. on wednesday she had to go back on fox news to try to defend herself and it wasn't effective. so the idea that she is taping someone like katrina pierson,

fine. but willing to tape the chief of staff in the most sensitive room in the white house, it makes you wonder who else she would be willing to tape. especially that communication team and there is talk of tapes from jared and ivanka, and tapes of other family members that are going to potentially come out. >> late on this. this is an ethic question. it seems to be we have spend a lot of days did donald trump use the n-word back in whenever. what do you make of that hunt for that word. what do you make of it? >> i think it is silly. i don't think finding the tape is going to convince people that support trump post charlottesville that he is a racist. enough document that proves that

donald trump has racist feelings in his heart. he demonstrates that every day. the fact that he tweeted and called a black woman a dog. we don't need to be on the hunt for a tape when we have evidence in our faces. and the n-word is not the only manifestation of racism. it is the every day acts of racism diminishing swimmiwomen, interrupting them. treating women as less than. the border. separating children from their parents. those are more important than one instance in which donald trump says the n-word on tape. that may not change anyone's mind. the tape is almost like a red

herring. >> what about in the third person references to somebody who isn't in the room. thank you ashley, zerlina, caty tur. >> coming up, rudy giuliani muddying the water. what is this guy's actual job. is that a fair question? plus, the sins of our father, the shocking grand jury report that tells decades of abuse. church leaders are being blamed for the cover up as they should. why are they covering it up? my big question. president trump says he is the least racist person you have

ever met. the democrats are getting more diverse and the republicans more white. finishing with trump watch, and talking about dogs. this is "hardball." where the action is. quick question. do you want the same tools and seamless experience across web and tablet?

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welcome back to "hardball." even though president trump is yet to speak to prosecutors himself, personally rudy giuliani is threatening consequences if the investigation isn't wrapped up by august. if he doesn't get it done in the next two or three weeks, we will unload on him. the latest bs from a tv lawyer who is prone from outrageous statements and flip-flops and exaggerations. when giuliani was hired last april promising to come to a speedy conclusion. from the outset, giuliani has shown no regard for consistency. rudy contradicted himself on michael cohen. >> i expected something like

this from cohen, he has been lying for years. he has lied all his life. >> similarly giuliani confirmed to give flynn a break. now saying that never happened. >> how is he a good witness for the president. >> he didn't direct him to do that. what he said was can you give him a break. the reality is as a prosecutor i was told that many times. can you give the man a break. >> what happened in that conversation with comey about michael flynn. what did president trump say. >> there was no conversation with michael flynn. >> he goes from saying he did say give him a break to there was no conversation. as he said of paul manafort in

june, when the whole thing is over, things might get cleaned up with some presidential pardons. we have seen giuliani go from denying collusion, to arguing collusion isn't a crime. making clear his job is to obfuscate and not to clarify. joining me now is joyce vance and betsy woodrow. is giuliani clownish in his role as his performance has been clownish. what is his role? >> i can't imagine we will ever see him in court representing the president of the united states. the sorts of arguments that he is making is really more of a pr

strategy than a legal argument. lawyers owe a duty of candor to the court. if rudy was saying this stuff in a courtroom, contradicting himself on the facts, he would have problems with the state bar at that point. >> let's go through a couple of points. i will do it with betsy. he says this will be over in a week or two that was in april. he says they did talk about giving flynn a break. and then a month later, he says it never happens. but then the tapes exist. and he knows we can show the tapes. >> giuliani is acting like the human equivalent of one big shiny object. trying to distract people. all he does is throws out assertions that contradict

previous assertions. and then disappearing. >> it seems like one of those idiots in the nba games behind the basket waving those stupid things. is that all he is, joyce? >> he really is. he is a distraction for people from whatever the drama is for the day with trump. i don't mean omarosa, i mean the evidence that is beginning to amass. throwing up distractions saying it is a witch hunt and you can't trust bob mueller. when in fact you know that is not true. but that is his role. >> joyce, did you get a sense that he was coached by his client? he says one day they did talk about giving flynn a break, and not putting him away. and then next time, he says i never talked about that. was that the client saying hey

buddy, you are getting me in hot water here, too close to the truth here. >> it could be the president coaching the lawyer, which we can talk about the dysfunction of having the client telling the lawyer what legal strategy to engage. it could be that as giuliani sees the public failure of some of the strategies he is trying, he is moving onto the next one. hoping something he throws up against the wall will stick. >> it is not working. since day 1, giuliani has dangled the testimony. no final decision has ever made. let's watch this. >> the president wants to testify, wants to give his side of the case only if and when we find that this was handled appropriately. and there is evidence on which

they can base this phony investigation. if we can decide by july 4th, if they are going to do an interview. it depends on what they offer. how narrowing the questioning is. we would not recommend. >> have you determined that the president is not going to sit down. >> we have not. we are close to determining that. we haven't made a final decision. we offered them an opportunity to do a form of questioning. he can say yes or no. if he doesn't want to do it, he knows the answer to every question that he wants to ask. >> betsy, remember 9/11, the great thing about this guy, the reason he got the title america's mayor, as a public official in charge, every time he had these press conferences,

he would tell you what is going on. up to date. this is what we know right now. it was right now information and that's what we wanted and right now he is not giving us anything except bs. >> it is the opposite of the role he had. he doesn't seem it be treating his credibility like something that matters. >> yeah, it doesn't matter. >> and rather instead of taking a role of uniting the country and bringing people together and sharing vital information. giuliani seems to be saying something different every week because he needs to make news on fox news. >> i don't know why he wanted to go from america's mayor to baghdad bob. i don't know. up next, stunning new record of abuse in the catholic church

sending shock waves. will the people who perpetrated these crimes, know who covered up these crimes be held accountable? can they be held accountable after so many years. who benefitted from the silence besides the perpetrator. this is "hardball" where the action is. with two times more detail than any other dna test... you can connect more deeply to the places of your past. and be inspired to learn about the people and traditions that make you, you. savor your dna story. only $59-- our site's lowest price ever. you might or joints.hing for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in clinical trials to improve short-term memory.

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happen. two kids. okay. it could have been you. it could have been me. it could have been any of us. we've got to nail these scum bags and show people nobody could get away with this. not a priest, or a cardinal or a freakin' pope. >> the movie "spotlight." and now a searing new grand jury report alleges abuse of more than a thousand children in pennsylvania over a series of several decades. the 900 page report goes into graphic details. this ring of priests allegedly manufactured child pornography

on d diocean. the boys received gifts specifically gold cross naexs they were a signal to predators that the children -- the problem plaguing the catholic church are not going away. despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability. priests were raping little girls and boys. and they hid it all. he is the journalist who mark

ruffalo portrayed in the movie. what is the motive, however, god knows, what is the motive of the cover up. why don't other priests rat other priests out. >> several factors that go into it. o one is many bishops and cardinals. under canon law, it is the bishops responsibilities to save the church from scandal. the other thing that may be more significant is what i refer to as a protection racket. no sell bassy, does not cause priests to molest children. you have all sex prohibits.

priests are human beings and they are having sex. >> how do we know that fact? if it is a fact. >> we know that by the research that was conducted in the early '90s. a survey based on 1500 interviews and half of the priests were sexually active. >> they admitted it? >> he saw them in various settings, he was a psychotherapyist. and he was a previous priest himself. so he found that half the priests were having sex and those who were not having sex, many had sex in the past. here is the dynamic. >> so one says to another who is complaining about what happens to a 13-year-old altar boy, i wouldn't be so pious father. somebody will rat you out. you said protection racket.

>> you explained it perfectly. a priest who is having sex with a woman or a man or who may have had sex in the past or a secret to protect, none of them are going to rat out the priest having sex with a child. >> what about the good guys, putting up with the horniness, if you call it. what about the ones putting up with the pain or frustration. and see other people who don't put up with it. >> well i think it has to do with protecting the institution. when i started covering this story, i harken back to my days as a young reporter doing police stories. whenever there was an instance of police brutality. the clergy is an all male secret

society. an all male culture may have something to do with this. some intrinsic inability to understand the damage that sexual abuse can do to a child. >> growing up catholic, altar boy, the whole works, never heard of this stuff. i don't know how we were lucky. >> i can tell you how. i would just bet that you had an intact family, a mother and father and not vulnerable. >> four brothers and good parents. thank you. i thought good priests too. up next, president trump insists he is the least racist we have ever met, anybody ever met. you are watching "hardball." i found my tresiba® reason. now i'm doing more to lower my a1c. i take tresiba® once a day. tresiba® controls blood sugar for 24 hours

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welcome back to "hardball." been a few days since omarosa

first accused the president of using a racist term referring to black people. but the affront goes back decades. discriminating against black people in housing rentals. in 1989, speaking about african americans, special on race. >> a well-educated black has a tremendous advantage over well-educated white in terms of the job market. sometimes a black may think they don't really have the advantage or this or that, but in actuality, today, currently, it is a great -- i have said on occasion, even about myself, i

would love to be well-educated black because i think they have an actual advantage. >> in 2011, trump rose to prominent by pushing the fact president obama was not born here in the united states. what more does president trump need to say on this matter. joined by experts karen, john braverman. and jonathan blake dst bar let me start with you on this. is trump recognized to have a race problem? >> yes. he is. particularly by people in new

york. before people in new york knew about the problems with his family's buildings and their unwillingness to rent apartments to african americans. to people of color and african-americans in particular, there is no shock here at all. >> so it is on his baseball card, people know this. >> yeah. and for those who didn't know those two things, who don't live in new york city. if you have been watching this since he called mexico rapists and went downhill from there, he has a race problem and a problem with african-americans in particular. >> is he doing this strategically? >> he is president of the united states. a president of the united states should know better. would never have done a year ago

what he did after charlottesville. no president of the united states should ekwif cate on whether people protesting hate and the people who are hateful, nazi's, white supremacists they are not very fine people on both sides. only fine on one side. >> this is all complicated. the fact that we are still talking about race in the year 2018, in a country where we are built by we are all created equal. >> built on the backs of slaves. >> i agree with you. this comes on the heels of there have been surveys out that say donald trump's approval ratings of african-americans have come up. >> to what? double digits. >> it has doubled since he has become president. it is not where it should be.

>> i have seen a couple of speeches recently with mike pence where he has stood in front of audiences 98% white and saying one of the proud accomplishments is that african-american unemployment is lowest in history. >> these are different arguments. you can be a crusty african-american and you have been all of this race all your life, and saying i will give him credit there are more jobs. but these are different arguments. great column by the way. >> we don't know what is in his heart. we can watch what he says, what he does. you referred to this as a race problem. his actions says he sees it as a race opportunity. he has as much as people think

of him as sort of undisciplined with his words, he has shown a real skill at kind of saying things that will divide people but leaving himself and leaving his supporters just enough of a sheen of deniability. >> do people believe that he sent inspectors to hawaii to find out if his predecessor was born in the u.s. >> i am not going down that rabbit hole. but you have to understand. we keep saying because he says this, he must be racist. he has gone after john mccain, does that mean he is against veterans. he is an equal opportunity insulter. >> you think he is don rickles.

>> don't you? >> when he picked a fight with lebron james, an upstanding citizen. why does he go after him. he wants to fight with blacks it seems to me. >> didn't he also go after -- >> i think he likes the look of the fight. i think he likes that picture in the boxing ring. >> yeah, he loves the fight, he loves the picture and for his supporters, they love the fact that here he is standing up to these uppity ungrateful black folks. >> who is he talking to? democrats in the rust belt state? >> talking to people who support

him. >> dremocrats in the rust belt states. >> the white guy. but i don't think that guy agrees with him. >> up next, tell me something i don't know. you are watching "hardball." g t. g t. and if that's not enough to help you save, we could start a carpool. look at this traffic. don't worry. ok, if that's not enough we'll start a trainpool. oh i have a meeting in five minutes. and if that's still not enough... i got it. we'll just create a shortcut. we'll do anything, seriously anything to help you save. ally. do it right. talking 4th quarter? yes.

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back with the "hardball" roundtable. karen, tell me something i don't know. >> one of the things, one of the private conversations that a lot of democrats are having these days how concerned they are about hispanic turnout and intensity. a lot of these seats they have to win to take back the house are districts with heavy hispanic population. >> i agree with you. >> 33 million america by the next presidential race. fo 45 million americans that can vote. going to change the dynamic of the primaries. >> they can't watch me? >> everybody is focused whether there is going to be a blue wave

in november. democrats in particular need to focus on the fact that -- now 28 states only 35 to do it. once you open up to a constitutional convention. >> how will the first amendment survive that baby. >> thank you. returning in just a minute and finish with the trump watch. coming up if a minute. it's a good one. you're watching "hardball." if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or psoriatic arthritis,

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trump watch wednesday august to show how low he has taken us, watch this snippet of an earlier president responding to thomas dewy. >> my family. i am accustomed to hearing malicious false hoods about myself but i think i have a right to resent, to resent

liablous statements about my dog. >> pretending to be upset on an attack on his dog. what has happened to this country and that is "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starting now. >> tonight on all in. >> i have revoked the security clearance on john brennan. >> revoking my security clearances is his way of trying to get back at me. >> tonight, john brennan responds. >> is this an effort to try to cowl individuals. >> james clapper, james comey. >> more former