that's a wrap for this hour of msnbc live. i'll see you at noon eastern. reverend al sharpton is guest hosting on "a.m. joy." take it away, rev. >> he's contradicted the commitment he made when he did that campaign of what do you have to lose. we have to lose a voice, an advocate, someone who understands the issues and reach out to the community. we have a lot to lose and we're losing because donald trump is disingenuous about his engagement and outreach and i believe he wants to start a race war in this country. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." i'm al sharpton in for joy reid. omarosa manigault-newman has rattled donald trump and the white house with her new book "unhinged" and her selective release of secret tapes.

earlier i spoke with omarosa and began by talking about the history of our relationship before she entered the white hous house. >> we have a long history, i served in the national action network in los angeles and on the front line of the initiatives you were trying to push to help the community. when i went into the white house i wanted to extend that advocacy. it's very important to have somebody at the table and not allow them to make decisions about us without us so my intent was to make sure shafs a voisz advocating for ede inine ininei. they were dismantling every accomplish that president obama did i wanted to make sure that i was in there to make sure the things he worked for so we could

advance but unfortunately i think you have known donald trump longer than i have, he has a very destructive spirit and what i saw within this first 100 days disturbed me greatly and that's why i wanted to write about in the "unhinged." >> you said you came to understand this destruct i have spirit. is donald trump in your mind a racist? >> yes, donald trump is. and i have to tell you that i have always given him the benefit of the doubt. people ask me about when he was doing the birther movement. i had a chance to talk about it and he said the clintons started it and he was just using it for political reasons. every time he had a type of issue with the community i was there. i was the person that could take him to task. the one thing i realized once i was in that he was disingenuous about his commitment to diversity. he could care less if african-american civil rights

leaders, anyone came to the table because he had his agenda and that did not included a vancing and uniting 2 african-american community you'll remember during the campaign he said what do you have to use? he called me and said he wanted to meet me and you called me and i said omarosa i won't be a prop. so i know what you're talking about. he tried to get you to convince me to come. so he talks one thing, oh, sharpton is a con man and privately get him to do this, get him to do that but it's stage craft, not serious. >> he's a performer. he did tell me get sharpton on the phone, i want to sit down with him. he said that privately but publicly he was trying to use

you to get people to go against the advocacy work you were doing or even to go against the democrats so your instincts were right. i did call on you because i did need to have backup but i think what they quickly realized at the white house, they felt if the black community is against her, we can undermine everything she's doing so i was fighting on 2 inside and i understood what african-americans may have been concerned about me being there but when you look at what i've talk about in my journey they'll realize i was getting tackled by my teammates everyday om that white house. >> that's one of the chapter, tackled by your teammates. is the "new york times" right? do you have more tapes, more e-mails, more videos? is there more there? >> absolutely. i have this huge 15-year record with donald trump and i'm very good at documenting my life, things that happen but there areally things that were peculiar to me and i think i

showed when i shared that tape of general kelly when he took me in the basement of the white house, into the situation room. had i not had that tape rev it would be hard for peoplible the i was threatened by a four star general with things getting ugly or damage to my reputation. in trump world everybody lies, it's a culture of deceit. people turn on each other very, very quickly and you have to have documentation for everything you do. even trump. in the morning he may say one thing, by the afternoon he's flip-flopped so the question about whether or not i do, absolutely. i have this vast historical knowledge and relationship with donald trump, 15 years and i've been very good about documenting the revolution of that relationship which is what i put in my book unhinged. >> will any of it be of interest to special investigators like mr. mueller?

i talk about having a meeting with him and i share whatever they need. anything of interested, i'm fully cooperate with them. >> you are cooperating with the mueller information? >> yes. i'm sorry, my ear piece is popping out. i can hear you, rev. >> and you're willing to hand over anything that may be helpful, even if it's corroborating things you may not know they need or missing piece? >> absolutely. i will turn over all the things they need but i will turn over additional things that i've discovered as i've gone through the two years on the campaign so i'm willing to serve to continue the dialogue i started with them this spring. >> what do you think about the "new york times" story this morning saying that the white house counsel mcgahn has had all of these hours of talks with

them? do you think there's a potential for he and others to say wait a minute, i'm not taking the fall for donald trump here? >> it doesn't surprise me. don mcgahn is a professional and his commitment is to the country, not to donald trump. i think it's important for us to realize when we took that oath, and don mcgahn was an assistant to the president like me, we took the oath this to country and the constitution and not donald trump. >> let me ask this. in terms of diversity in the white house, i've been in this a long time in civil rights, i can't think of a president that didn't have a black in the west wing and at least the discussions, in the senior administrative leadership until now. you were the most public face there and even there they didn't

have -- they didn't want you in the meetings you insisted to be in as i read the book. he's the first president that has outright excluded -- he can call me and other activists a racist. he's the only one with a lily white inner circle. am i right? >> you're correct and it's worse than people realize. there are 30 assistants to the presidents, none representing the african-american community, there are sess as well as schedule cs that make up the appointments and the diversity in the agency is sparse and in fact when we submitted candidates they were rejected over and over again and i will tell you that they haven't made an attempt to replace anyone to do the african-american outre h

outreach. he's contradicted the commitment he made of what do you have to lose. clearly we have to lose a voice, an advocate, someone who understands the issues and knows how to reach out to community. we have a lot to lose and we're losing now because donald trump is disingenuous about his engagement and outreach and i believe he wants to start a race war in this country. >> wow. let me ask you this, omarosa. you were attacked by many -- including me -- in terms of positions, nothing personal and you took the heat and you took being called a sellout and all and then you decided that you were going to come with this book, some say she's just selling books but you went way above and beyond just saying something, you advocated, how did you feel when you saw the president call you a low life and a dog after you had taken all of these arrows for him?

>> when he called me that dog i thought that it was clear evidence, one, that he has no respect for the presidency. it was such a vulgar slur and can you just imagine if he would say that publicly what is he saying about me and other african-americans privately? it makes the point that donald trump is not equipped to serve in the role he is in. i would say he's unfit to serve as the president of the united states. he's taken the presidency to the gutter when he reduce this is important office to name calling, to being thin skinned, pulsive and in "unhinged" i assert he is on mental decline and that was on full display when he was attacking me over and over again and then he wanted to sic his entire legal team on me and my publisher but rev, i'm a soldier, i'm built

for this and ready for this fight, i'm not intimidated or afraid of this president. i have an entire community of faith who is praying for me and undergirding everything i'm doing. at the end of the day the truth matters and we will come on the right side of this because african-americans have endured much worse than donald trump. >> we'll have more of my interview with omarosa later. up next, you won't believe what rudy giuliani just said. alice is living with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread to other parts of her body. she's also taking prescription ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor, which is for postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive

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. >> this mcgahn thing leaked from them. if they had some kind of eviden evidence, don't you think it would have been leaked. >> let's start with collusion, the trump tower meeting itself is ed of collusion. >> it's not. >> how is it not? >> the meetings are attempting to -- >> you just said the meeting was intented to get dirt on a criminal lawyer. that was the intention of the meeting. >> it turned out to be a meeting

about another subject and it was not pursued at all and any meeting with regard to getting information on your opponent is any candidate's staff would take. if someone said i have information about your opponent you would take that meeting. >> from a russian citizen? >> they didn't know she was russian at the time. >> i'm sure they knew she was russian. >> you asked me did they show an intention to do anything with the russian? all they knew is a woman with a russian name wanted to meet with them. they didn't know she was a representative of the russian government and she's not. so this is much ado about nothing. the president of the united states wasn't at that meet iing. he found out about it after. if this is their case for

collusion, good luck mueller. >> yes, that really happened. joining us not, natasha bertrand, staff writer at t atlantic and joyce vance, former u.s. attorney. according to rudy giuliani that someone says we have information against your opponent, according to him that's not collusion. what would you say? >> i would have to disagree with giuliani. there's a clear statute that makes it illegal to accept a donation intended to influence a

u.s. campaign from a foreign citizen, not a foreign citizen who is part of that government, simply from a foreign citizen so just as a baseline before we talk about a conspiracy to collude with the russians, there's a campaign finance issue and giuliani's claim that the campaign folks who met with ms. veselnitskaya, there is indication that it's someone who is well placed in government. this is giuliani doing what he says. truth isn't truth. >> richard, because we've heard it first, they were meeting about adoptions and wanting to deal with the whole question of adoptions then we've hearing this and that, now we are led to

believe by giuliani this morning that the meeting was just a russian citizen who wanted to pass information that never passed it on. how could someone like that get donald trump's son, the chairman of his campaign, get all of these major players in his campaign to the table if that is all that was. look at who was in the room, richard. >> it's quite obvious what's going on. there's a quid pro quo here. russia wanted lifting of the sanctions against russia in connection with the invasion of parts of the ukraine and was going to provide damaging information on hillary clinton. that's what this is about. that is what everybody knew it was about. that's why you have to top two people in the trump campaign there. it is very, very likely to be

illegal and violation finance laws. but i was in the bush white hou house. taking place between anyone in the republican national committee or any campaign on the russian national and that situation i would have called the fbi. i just finished running. i would have called the fbi. this is atrocious that this happened and that the president and his supporters continue to deny that it was collusion and very likely to be illegal collusion with a foreign power. it shocks me, the people in order to win an election are colluding -- >> a foreign adversarial power. >> absolutely right. >> natasha, one of the things that becomes mind-boggling and i don't know if it's their

panicking at the white house or trying to spin so much that they want the public to get tired because they get confused with a different story everyday but they have given so many different stories as to why this meeting took place and what took place in the meeting but it's clear the meeting happened with the top people in his campaign including his son and son-in-law in the room and that this meeting had weight otherwise they would not have had such top people there and i think that when you listen to omarosa earlier in the interview she did with me on "politics nation they are just some very, very let's say destructive people in terms of how they behave and getting dirt on their opponent would fall in line with them. >> right. i think their belief is that if they just spin the story and just continue to confuse the

public about what happened by changing their stories so often that ultimately no one will know what happened and they won't believe anything they see or read and this is exactly what we saw giuliani doing when he claimed that the president never brought up michael flynn with the former fbi director james comey and that was a dramatic shift from what giuliani himself acknowledged in weeks prior. so this is another example of what he's doing which is trying to confuse and distract and of course it's just a complete lie that the president's son did not know this was a russian government effort to provide information about clinton to the campaign because the e-mail itself says in black and white this is part of the russian government's support for the president and his campaign. rob gold stone, the music publicist, spelled it out pretty well in that e-mail so there's no way they can say they didn't

know. this idea that there was no follow-up, that's also false because rob goldstone was e-mailing dan scavino, the social media manager for the campaign, encouraging him to set up a social media page for the campaign and he said that was discussed at this meeting so that was another topic of discussion we didn't know about so it's a drip drip coming out of this meeting and the infamous statement that donald trump first drafted about this meeting was, of course, false. he said this was an effort by natalia veselnitskaya to bring information about russian adoption policy and didn't mention anything about the dirt on clinton. >> we've had so many different stories and joyce if you think that's confusing, let me show you what mr. giuliani said about the truth this morning. >> when you tell me that he should testify because he's going to tell the truth and

shouldn't worry, that's silly because it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. he didn't have a conversation -- >> truth is truth. i don't mean -- >> no, truth isn't truth. the president of the united states says i didn't -- >> truth isn't truth. mr. mayor, do you realize what -- i think this is going to become a bad meme. >> don't do this to me. >> don't do "truth isn't truth" to me. >> donald trump says i didn't talk about flynn with comey. comey says you did talk about it. tell me what the truth is. >> don mcgahn might know. >> if you're such a genius -- don mcgahn doesn't know. >> joyce, help me, please. truth isn't truth. i've been a preacher a long time. i've never heard truth isn't truth. what does that mean? that's not even rational. >> if you have to resort to

truth isn't truth, particularly as a lawyer, you're in a dark place, you're in a place where you know your client is in a lot of trouble because we know there is a truth and when two witnesses tell different stories in an investigation the job is to look at evidence that corroborates one version or the other but trump tried to maintain that the truth is what he says the truth is. a couple weeks ago he said you can't believe what you see, you can't believe what you hear and at bottom it's this effort by his administration to convince the american people that there is no truth, that is the most disheartening part of this whole endeavor because there is truth, it's what prosecutors like folks in my former job do everyday in court -- help juries make determinations about what is the truth. there is a truth about this presidency and it's time for the american people to learn what it

is. >> richard, in the white house, isn't it time for someone to call this to order and say look this is what is legal, this is what is ethical, this is what we do and all other nonsense goes to the side and those that violated including the president have to be held accountable. you can't have that flexible truth and ethics and people just move around and reinterpret and reposition things according to what is in their interests. somebody needs to establish order in that white house as has been done in every administration whether i agreed with the politics or not, i've never seen a situation where you have this kind of disarray and almost moving balmoralty around the west wing.

>> and this is just a rehash of what kellyanne conway said when she talked about alternative facts. there is such a thing as objective truth and those on the extreme left and extreme right have persistently consistently attacked the objective truth, the notion of objective truth. this is the way hitler talked in his political campaigns about truth and that there is no such thing as objective truth, i say what the truth is. this is a distortion of the truth combined with extreme racism and religious bigotry. it's dangerous for our country. the white house won't fix this problem. it's up to the united states congress to address it. the constitution has an impeachment clause and the congress is not investigating. it's their obligation to hold hearings as they did in 1973 and

1974 as they did with president nixon to inquire on abuse of power, of the united states constitution and they are sitting on their rear end griping about hillary clinton's e-mail and attack on the fbi, i hope the voters throw every last one of them throughout the door. >> richard will join us in our next hour. thank you to natasha bertrand and joyce vance. more "a.m. joy" after the break. i've always looked forward to what's next. and i'm still going for my best even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm up for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both.

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when he called me "that dog," i thought it was clear evidence, one, that he has no respect for the presidency. it was such a vulgar slur and can you just imagine if he would say that publicly, what is he saying about me and other african-americans privately? it just really makes the point that donald trump is not equipped to serve in the role he is in. i would say he's unfit to serve as the president of the united states. >> omarosa did not hold anything back in my interview with her this morning. joining me now is gabriel sherman of "vanity fair," the "washington post's" e.j. dionne, karine jean-pierre of moveon.org and sirius xm radio host joe madison. gabriel, you reported that president trump wanted attorney

general sessions to arrest omarosa. >> yeah, this was reporting last week about just the level of frustration the president has felt in his in ability to control omarosa in her public statements. we should remember, donald trump is used to people working for him at trump tower where they sign these ironclad nondisclosure agreements and he has a history of suing people who spoke out with him in the press. he wishes he could do this as president but thankfully we have free speech protections where government employees can speak out and i think he's lashing out to bend the law to his will. he has an authoritarian instinct and in authoritarian states when people displease the leader, they are arrested. >> karine, as i talk to her this morning -- and she and i have not talked since she walked out of national action network convention when i attacked donald trump in her defense of

him, i have mixed feelings but i also had to listen carefully as i just played how she addressed being called "that dog a" and a low life as a black woman. listening to someone like omarosa, how do you respond to that? >> i think that donald trump with his reputation of how he attacks black women that he finds that are too powerful or speaking out of term, he does this, he calls them dogs, attacks their intelligence and does this with the entire black community, anybody who speaks out against him so it is dehumanizing and i wouldn't want that on anybody, including omarosa so i can understand how she feels about that. the interesting part about this is we are about a week in to her book tour and she is literally living rent free in his mind.

and it's because -- it's his fault. he invited her into the white house, they had a 15 year mutual relationship and you would think the president of the united states would have better things to do than attack a book. it's because he's so thin skinned and petty and unqualified we have never seen such small man hold such a big office. >> e.j., you've been covering washington and certainly including the white house for some time and you and i have talked through the obama years and about the years before. one of the things that struck me in my interview with omarosa is i can't remember going back to the early '70s, maybe even

before that when i started becoming interested in politics and then active as a teenager where a president had a lily white inner circle. even if it was nixon who i disagreed with or reagan there were some blacks in the inner circle or a black. this is the first time i've seen no black and even omarosa's title was not that of a senior staff member and her office was at eob. there is never in the last half century or more a president that had no black in the room when it was time to make real powerful and i would say important decisions. i don't want to go too hyper on it. have you seen a more lily white administration at the top.

>> i think you have to go before our time to find that. obviously african-americans had a lot more influence in some administrations than others but this is exceptional. i want to say, by the way, the line "living rent free in trump's mind" is a keeper, i'm going to remember that. i love that. >> i'm going to use that karine. i'll give you credit the first time but you know preachers, after that -- >> totally understand, reverend. totally understand. >> there is something odd when i was listening to that interview. for her to suddenly decide that donald trump has a racial problem, to put it very gently. i know it's overused but i still love the lined from casablanca, i'm shocked, shocked that there's gambling going on here. all of this was knowing and she is now turning around and doing something different.

the fact that she does seem to have these recordings. i want to assure my friends i don't record them, the fact that she has these recordings is really a problem for them and a sign, as a lot of our colleagues pointed out, of what a back-stabbing awful place to work this white house is and that is very dangerous when you are in the kind of trouble donald trump is in and she epitomizes the kind of dangers they face. >> joe, as e.j. says that. you and i have been in civil rights groups the last few decades and we also aside from what i do in national action network and on msnbc we also both do separate talk radio shows and there is this feeling among some of our listeners, black and white, they don't want

to believe omarosa or they believe she has an ulterior motive or she should have known better or she's selling books but the fact is she was the black face, if there was one, of the trump administration that he put out there and he has got to really live with what he put out there. she was the one that was selling him to everybody so you can't ignore notwithstanding whatever your views are of her motivation, you can't ignore the one he put out there to speak on his behalf on issues of race, you can't ignore her saying he's a racist. >> remember this phrase. faustian. a faustian pact. faust made a deal with the devil and when you read her book, especially in the beginning she talks about growing up poor in industrial ohio, hooking up with

donald trump because she thought that that would be her ride as she said on my show on sirius to making her famous and successful and a millionaire and i think most of us in our community know, or they think that she knew what she was getting into and she may have in essence sold her soul to the devil. the bottom line with all of this is did she not -- and i raise this question last week, reverend sharpton -- has she not done us a favor in a strange and ironic way in validating what what we thought? what we all thought? didn't know for a fact and if these tapes exist then in fact she has in essence done us a

favor now how she will get her respect back in the community, some people will respect her, some people will believe her, some people won't, some people will never forgive her but i think the reality is that she knew what donald trump was like and she had to know before she got fired. >> i think that the issue for me is not what will happen to her, the issue is what you just said, it will in many ways validate what a lot of us are saying. i know donald trump, 10 when i was saying it i was talking as one that knew him and even she said this morning you ended up being right, rev, not meeting with him not being a prop because i got flak for not doing that. >> you just didn't have tapes. >> well, i didn't and i didn't go for the photo because i didn't feel it was serious. the panel will join me again later in the show. coming up in our next hour,

the press is starting to fight back against donald trump and trump's supreme court pick is accused of lying.

none of us is indid he say pensable. but i think i'm the best for the job. i won't let the republican ads which are flooding these districts and i say -- do whatever you have to do. just win, baby. i know, one in five children in america lives in poverty. we must win this. when the caucus decides, it will decide whose name they will send to the floor. only then after the election will i ask people for their support. in an interview here on am joy last week, nancy pelosi laid out plans to reclaim the speakership if democrats take back the house come november. but this week, congressman jim clyburn of south carolina vowed to jump into the speaker race if pelosi falls short of the votes she needs. i have my guests back with me. >> thank you. >> careen, if jim clyburn runs,

this will be the first time in the history of the country, if the democrats retake the house in november, that we would have a speaker that is african american. i think that we've heard a lot of anti-pelosi rhetoric, promotions, commercials from the right, and a lot of rumbling even in the democratic party, generational, ideological. a lot of different reasons. can jim clyburn, if she does not have the votes, solve all of these tensions, whether they be rural versus urban, whether they be generation will, whatever the schisms are. can he solve all of them in the democratic caucus and be the perfect candidate for speaker, or will he also inherit problems? >> reverend, this topic makes me

so nervous because we have to win the house in order to be able to have this debate. democrats have had such great energy from every race that we have seen since november 2016. the conversation has been about health care, it's been about wages. it's been about family separation most recently, especially from what we've seen from the moral crisis that this administration has taken us into an education. and so it's like the cart before the horse. it makes me really nervous that we're taking our eyes away from the ball and we're almost there. i wish we would hold on that debate before that. i would have to say that nancy pelosi was an incredibly successful speaker. she got us a stimulus package and passed health care. passed the energy bill and so she has been incredibly successful and jim clyburn is great. there are other great potential

great leaders in the democratic party. i understand the importance of making sure that as the party is becoming more diverse and also younger that we have that representation. so i think it's a conversation too soon. like i said, jim clyburn has great experience. i know him from my work, especially in presidential campaigns work not guilty south carolina. but i do think that we should hold on this debate internally in the party. >> joe, i think karine's concerns are mine. if they become too involved and too side tracked by who is going to be the speaker and forget about the fact the democrats need to first take the house, it could become a distraction even for the public and i think the concern is that it could also start dividing the party before they get to the finish line.

it reminds me of a lot of people ordering tuxedoes and gowns for hillary clinton's inauguration and forgot to vote from wisconsin and michigan and pennsylvania. if you were going to go to that inauguration. so isn't there a need for people and you like me who have been around for a while for -- but in a way of knowing the terrain. put the brakes on this and argue about that after november. >> i think we've all just done that. i'm not a political insider like the two of you. as you know, this came out because there was a meeting in mississippi, and what you had congressman clyburn doing saying he wouldn't challenge nancy pelosi but in case she didn't have the votes and that's one of

the great things about him, i learned from him a long time ago, he knows how to count those votes. he said he would put himself in a position to do it. i agree with that. to be quite candid, i think this is nor more than a one-day story. i hope that's how it stays. what we really have to do, two things to focus on. all of us have alluded to it. we must get that vote out. there is no ifs, ands or buts about it. the second thing, even with omarosa, we have to focus on what the republicans are planning to do with the nomination of the next supreme court justice. >> talking about that. that's very important. >> good. >> let me say this karene. you notice of the three of us, he called us people with inside information, the insiders, he knew the meeting was in mississippi.

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these are very dishonest people, many of them. they are very, very dishonest people. fake news, fake news. they are fake. they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake disgusting news.

>> welcome back to "am joy." i'm al sharpton in for joy reid. donald trump called the media, the quote, unmi of the people. this week the pedia fought back. more than 300 newspapers ran editorials criticizing his anti-press rhetoric. here's how kellyanne conway defended her boss. >> he does -- i think it's shocking when you have so many people now nakedly wearing their politics on their sleeves and not reporting the news particularly in their capacities on news programs and on social media. i said many times it would not pass an editor's desk, the most -- i don't know that we needed a day of action to have the press come together and be against the president because they feel that they're duty bound to do that pretty much every single day.

>> why is everybody so obsessed with the president of the united states that they can't begin or end a sentence -- >> joining me now is share blue media, gabriel sherman of vanity fair. richard pen a and karin jean pierre of move on. let me go to you eric. this was unprecedented. 300 newspapers. and they made it very clear they did not tell everybody, print this same editorial. it was not uniform. it was just agreed upon that they would have this day of unity. but everyone expressed it in their own way. this showed the level of concern, if not outrage of the president of the united states really identifying the media as the enemy of the people. >> i think it was his real

embrace of enemy of the people that shocked people into action. that's something out of stalin. that's not liberal media. this is beyond -- this is nuclear war, this is delegitimizing. for me, i feel like the glass is a little half empty. this was late, three years late maybe. when he came down the escalator to start his campaign made it clear a hallmark of his campaign, which we've never seen in american politics which is destroy the free press in this country. >> he wasn't shy about it. >> we've gotten to the point where the rhetoric is dangerous. he was hurting recorders into metal pens -- the d.c. press is overly impressed by republican "hardball" and overly concerned about being tagged as part of the so-called liberal media. so they've been paralyzed for the trump presidency. yes there's been good reporting,

but the institutions aren't fighting back. this is a good first step but late in the game of bullying. >> i think eric said something that has been something that has been of concern to me, is the media, the washington press and for that matter others, overreacting to being labeled liberal or whatever when they basically are doing their job and it is their job to aggressively go after whatever the position may be and the person may be. i mean, they've not been kind to me. but i would not run around calling them the enemy of the people. you can be pro kbrgressive and beat up by donald trump. for whatever reason donald trump is committed to just silencing them, not even saying i want to correct them if he feels they're wrong, silencing them, don't believe them, whatever they say is a lie. >> right. we have a president who doesn't believe in the freedom of the

press, who thinks he's above the law. we're living in abnormal times. we can't become numb to it. we need the freedom of the press to -- it's viet will to our democracy. the reason why the president attacks the press because many times they talk about the chaos in the administration, they call out his lies, right? they talk about his failed policy. he doesn't like that. but i think one of the big problems, too, reverend, is when we were talking about institutions with the last panelist there, you have a rooep, republicans on the house who are completely complicit. the founding fathers knew there would potentially be a donald trump. they didn't know the republicans in control of the house and the senate would be so complicit and sit back and do nothing and take no action. say a few words, very, very lukewarm words but do not action to stop this president.

>> richard, you were in charge of ethics in the bush white house. at what point does just saying all of these things make one believe that he's trying to prepare the public to, in any way he can, discount whatever comes out of the mueller report and in many ways trying to nullify the impact if, in fact, mueller comes with some conclusions that are criminal or unethical? >> well, he is definitely trying to could that. but he's been attacking the press and lying for years before this. lying about president obama birth certificate. lying to the investors in $900 billion worth of -- lying to the women he's been married to. donald trump is a liar. as for kellyanne conway, you look at her own husband's

twitter page to find out what he thinks of the person his wife work for. we have not seen in any presidential election since the 1932 presidential election in germany between hindenburg and hitler and the -- the at that x attacks on the press are similar to the attacks by candidate hitler and then chancellor hitler and within months of his becoming chancellor the free press was dpon in germany. it's critically important that congress wake up and do its job asset forth in the clause of the constitution if we want to keep our democracy in this country and stop believing donald trump, kellyanne conway, people who aren't trusted by their own spouses, much less the american people. let's focus on what's happening to our democracy. >> gabriel, we can't underestimate how dangerous this

can become. we've had media threatened, reporters threatened. i mean, this also comes down to when you call people enemy of the people. >> yeah. >> you can get zealots who are not that stable to really think they're doing their patriotic duty to actually go after certain reporters and/or institutions. >> of course, reverend, that's the ultimate concern that it leads to actual incitement. i can speak from personal experience having reported on donald trump's rallies. i was with him in watching him in duluth, minnesota. being in that fenced in press area and surrounded by thousands of his followers and the hatred and the vitriol at members of the press, it's intimidating to be surrounded by people and feeling like you are trapped with no way out. i just want to make one final point. what donald trump is trying to do here is reflective of his spiritual mentor growing up.

his pastor growing up was dr. norman vince ent peel. he thinks that by the words that he says, being reshape reality. this is a war over reality. by demonizing the press, he's trying to tell his followers, what i say is the reality, not what you see with your own eyes. >> karine when you hear that, we're looking at the very basic reasons, justification and rationale that united states always upheld as the principles that the country was founded on. we know they didn't always live up to those principles. but to undermine even the thought that the president is going to openly come out against free speech, freedom of the press, i mean, we're not talking about policy change by party now. we're talking about undermining the very fundamentals that the nation claimed to represent and saying that's what we're doing.

>> that's right. the bedrock of our democracy, absolutely. here's the thing with donald trump. it worked for him. he sees that in 2016 that it worked. and that attacking -- how did he start off? started off attacking people of color. mexicans and others and calling them drug dealers and rapists. he attacked the press. he attacked obama and hillary clinton. all of this, when he finds foils, he sees that it works. he's never going to move away from that. this is how he's lived his life for decades before he stepped into politics. he wants to be divisive. this is what he knows. unfortunately, what he's doing, sitting behind the podium or the residency or twieting or speaking at a rally, this is going to harm people who are covering him and other people speaking out against him. so it's incredibly dangerous. he doesn't care about the danger that he puts forth. for him, that's exactly what he

wants. he actually has said, you know what, he's lobbied threats. get that person in the crowd. get the heckler. there gs cnn, there goes msnbc. this is what he did. >> eric, i think the thing that stands out, we're not naive. donald trump is not the first politician to lie. probably clearing not the first president to lie. but i can't remember any other president say don't believe anything you hear anybody else say. i mean, between lying and saying everybody else is not to be believed. he's taken it to a whole another level. the fact that he's got these zealots following this is what has increased the concern here. and i think that the congress and the senate has not stood up and tried to in any way, shape

or form said wait a minute, this is a bridge too far, each to you mr. president. >> when he took away john brennan's security clearance, he got the green light from every republican senator. they are giving him the green light to engage in this authoritarian action. but sure, we've never seen a president go after the breast press like this. i come back to my point. the press has got to do something. we're in radical times. there has to be a radical change. they're nibbling around the edges, we'll print these 300 editorials. even after they did that, this is bad optics. looks like we're ganging up against them. he's going to use this against us. guess what? he's going to use everything against you. you're in a war for the survival of the free press in this country. it's got to be more robust. it's not to be more engaged. >> richard, is it cowardess that

we're seeing from the congress, is it could you war did he say from the media that sticks their toe but won't commit the rest of their body into the waters, let's say, or is it that they are stunned and just don't know how to fight this kind of fight? >> it's both cowardess and an inability to figure out how to fight the fight. it is very clear there's a threat to the democracy from president trump. his attacks on the freedom of the press. his attacks on mexican americans and african americansst. there's plenty of press on this -- we want to save our democracy, we have to stand up to him. we cannot continue to believe him or kellyanne conway or fox news or anyone else for him. the congress needs to do its job. it's in the impeachment clause of the constitution. the republicans won't do anything and too many of the democrats are scared to run on a

platform of i am preaimpeaching removing this president. we need hearings like we had in '73 with respect to nixon. nixon never used the kgb or a foreign adversary to win an election and never openly, publicly berated the press or ethnic minorities. he may have said things behind closed doors, but never openly, publicly berated the press the way that donald trump has. he's a very dangerous man. >> sherman -- you know the beat well. you're here in new york. i come from new york, trump does. >> yes. >> this is a new york kind of brawler. >> yeah. tabloid brawler. >> i keep telling people, i know how to fight him because i come up in the same culture and around the same time. >> yeah. >> they are fighting him like this is the boxing match three

minutes, referee stops go to your corner, rest a minute, come back out, follow the rules. this is a street brawler. there is no minute rest. there is no three rounds. there's no referee. you got to take it to him. otherwise, he doesn't even respect you, lest think you can beat him. i think that's the problem. they're in with a street fighter fighting a dignified correct polished fight and that is not how he fights. >> i mean, a couple things come to mind. "the new york times" published a bunch of letters from trump supporters about all the things they like about donald trump. i saw the times has something on their website in good news about donald trump. so this is sort of bending over backwards what eric was talking about earlier, sort of to make sure that you can't be tarred as liberal. trump is going to do it no matter what. he's not dealing with the media in good faith. all these efforts to play by

marquis rules is making you look weak. the only thing donald trump respects is strength. >> that's all. and that's why you notice he carefully picks fights with. thank you eric bullard and gabriel sherman, rich and karine will join us again later in the show. the pick for the supreme court is on the ropes. i'll tell you about it. (ford chime) it's the ford summer sales event and now is the best time to buy. you ready for this, junior? yeah, i think i can handle it. no pressure... ...that's just my favorite boat. boom. (laughs) make summer go right with ford, america's best-selling brand. and get our best deal of the summer: zero percent financing for sixty months on f-150. get zero percent financing for 60 months- plus $2,800 bonus cash on a 2018 f-150 xlt equipped with 2.7l ecoboost. you might or joints.hing for your heart...

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nor i was not and am not involved in questions about the rules governing detention of combatants so i do not have any involvement with that. >> donald trump's nominee for supreme court brett kavanaugh that he was not involved in the legal justifications for torturing suspected terrorists. but now democrats say he may not have been telling the truth. d.j. dion, karine jean pierre and richard painter are back with me. e.j., it appears from the records that they've been able to ascertain and clearly they are proceeding without all of

the records coming because national archives say that it will take until the end of the october to get all the records and it seems as though senator mcconnell is trying to rush the hearings and rush, i think he said, hearings for the -- he's trying to rush the process and not wait on the -- all of the archives, something they did not do when another person was being nominated. even from what they do know, it appears that's not true. that he was involved in the white house and involved in the legal decisions and discussions around torture. >> well, this issue has been eating at democratic senators, particularly senator durbin of illinois and senator leahy of vermont long before kavanaugh was picked. at best, what he said was incomplete. they believe it was outright

misleading. so they now have the opportunity to raise this again. there are a couple of problems here. problem one, as you suggested is that they are not being -- they meaning the republicans and the senate are not being forthcoming about making all of judge kavanaugh's white house record under president bush available. the way that kagan was nomina d nominated, the republicans demanded and got about everything about her white house record. the other thing is the republicans are being so partisan about this. there's really only one senator who is not -- seems not fully committed. maybe senator mckosky. it's all up to susan collins. if collins doesn't take this seriously, kavanaugh goes through. that's the kind of partisanship that's hardened over time. >> karine, i think that is what is scary.

the partisanship hardening to the point of you're talking about ceding someone to the supreme court that you have not done a thorough review of the record. many have been meeting and talking this week and one of the concerns have been that the democrats don't have the votes and they're not even raising the fact that they're rushing this through without a thorough looking of the record. i'm talking about the republicans here. that they did to kagan and sotomayor. i think part of it is they fear if this goes after the midterm election, they may not have the majority of the senate to really put him in, which is really saying we know we have a bad candidate, but therefore, we've got to go with a stacked deck in order to put this throw. that in itself ought to be

appalling when we're talking about a lifetime seat on the supreme court. there's nothing to do with the giving party or the seasons that we may be living in, in terms of who is up and who is down politically. >> that's exactly right, reverend. here we have, everything is on the line. literally everything is on the line of the we have a conservative's conservative supreme court justice pick that is politically toxic because we see that in a recent poll where kavanaugh is seen as one of the least popular supreme court justice picks that we have seen in decades. i think the only person that least popular is robert bourque. which doesn't say much for him. kavanaugh is going to, if he makes it to the court, he's going to change everything that you've worked so hard for, reverend. that many of us have worked hard for, voting rights, women's rights to choose, lgbtq rights. everything is on the line.

we cannot take that lightly. i think democrats need to do more. they need to talk about this more. we are not hearing about kavanaugh at all and the supreme -- him being the supreme court justice -- how they're moving forward so quickly. even the records, his records not being presented. we're not hearing about that and we have to try and push through the media coverage and put that back on -- back out there. because this is incredibly dangerous what we're seeing. like i said, everything is on the line. we could not -- we should be scared to death by what's happening here with this potential kavanaugh pick. with this potential kavanaugh getting on to the court. >> richard, in many ways, many of us feel that president trump has weakened and devalued the presidency in terms of as an office. if we start having people ramrod

based on party and preferences, the supreme court, we also, i believe, and i want your reaction, begin to reduce the supreme court and what it means and what it stands for. because then now we are looking like we're just dealing in some back room political game here. we're talking about the people that will interpret the constitution, people that have lifelong appointments and have the ultimate judicial authority in this country and we're playing games almost in the senate around this like you're talking about somebody that is a precinct captain in old time new york or chicago here. this is outrageous when you think about it. >> well, you're absolutely right, reverend. he's acting like a party boss and he's really acting like a dictator. first, this president is no, sir conducting himself as required

under the constitution. he needs to be removed from office. the united states, senate judiciary committee should be having impeachment hearings and they should not be confirming any nominee to the united states supreme court until they address the fact that president trump is not conducting himself as a president under the united states constitution. second, brett kavanaugh wrote an article in 2009 in the minnesota law review saying that the president should not be investigated or sued while he's in office. very different position than that he took when working for ken star going after bill clinton. he's the obvious pick for president trump who wants to stack the deck of the supreme court. why? because bob mueller may have to go to the supreme court to get evidence from the white house as archibald cox did in 1973, have to get an order from the supreme court to order release of the

white house tapes. president trump is trying to stack the deck and brett kavanaugh is the obvious pick given his position, the president should ever be investigated while in office. this is a no-go. not to mention the fact that there's been a conservative effort by the extreme right to overturn roe v. wade for 45 years. they're looking at people who are cookier, that they pass up on those people versus brett kavanaugh. bottom line, they ought to have this hearing in january. we've got an impeachment hearing right now. >> they held up, e.j., the nomination of president obama of kne neil gorsuch saying we have to wait until after the election, wait until the people of america decide. you have a third of the senate, all kinds of seats up. let the american people decide and then we'll see on their nomination. i mean, mcconnell said this. to karine's point, we're not

hearing the democrats aggressively raise that. there needs to be an all-out blitz in my opinion of at least having this debate because you had them literally block even a hearing on president obama's nomination and now they're able to ram this through without a real groundswell. it's scary. >> if you hadn't raised merit garland, i was going to raise that. >> yeah. >> gave that nomination -- that nomination gave the senate a lot more time and yet, at the times the republican majority said no we're going to wait until after the election. now with the republicans having the senate still and a republican nominee, they're saying no, no, no. that logic is no longer operative as richard nixon used to say. >> they effectively blocked garland coming in. i said gorsuch was the one that

was -- >> right. >> he became the one that trump was able to get through because of what they did with garland. >> the stolen seat. and i think that democrats are raising a lot of these issues. you've got three democrats in a difficult position because they are running for reelection in trump's state. senator donnelly, heitkamp, maybe mccaskill. a lot of democrats -- the reason we're having this conversation is because of what senators durbin and leahy are doing. but the majority has a lot of power and senator mcconnell is running the senate the way the house is normally run. in the senate historically, the minority had a lot of power to make its points. senator mcconnell is just basically riding roughshod over minority -- in the senate. they may push this nomination through. i think there is still, if i can

use the sports metaphor, a number of innings left. again, i think the pressure, what kind of pressure is brought to bear on senator susan collins is probably key to this whole thing. >> i think you're right. i think that there are innings left and you play all the way to the bottom of the ninth. it's not over. i think too many people are throwing in the towel and people need to understand what's at stake here as karine said. a half a century of women's rights, voting rights, civil rights. there's too much at stake not to fight every second until in is over. e.j., karine and richard are sticking around. rudy is out on the sunday morning talk shows. we'll have it for you next. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely.

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this whole mcgahn thing leads from them. if they had some kind of evidence that there was collusion or there was obstruction, don't you think it would have been leaked? they leak everything else. >> let's talk collusion. the trump tower meeting itself is at least evidence of you

better investigate. how is it not? >> well, because the meeting was originally for the purpose of getting information about clinton. the meeting turned into a meeting -- >> in itself is attempted collusion. you said it. the meeting was intended to get dirt on hillary clinton from a -- >> that was the original intention of the meeting. it turned out to be about another subject and it was not pursued at all. of course, any meeting with regard to getting information on your opponent is something any candidate's staff would take. if someone said i had information about your opponent, you would take that meeting. >> from the russian government? >> she didn't represent the russian government. she's a private citizen. i don't even know if -- >> i think they knew she was russian. >> not when they met with her. not when they set up the meeting. you asked me, did they show an intention to do anything with

russians. all they knew was a woman with a russian name wanted to meet with them. they didn't know she was a representative of the russian government and indeed she's not a representative of the russian government. much ado about nothing. he didn't know about the meeting. bit the time he found out about it, it was nothing. >> if this is their case for collusion, good luck mueller. up next, more on the trump administration's strange relationship with the truth. stay with us.

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you're saying it's a falsehood and they're giving sean spicer gave alternative facts to that. >> wait a minute. alternative facts. four of the five facts he uttered. he got -- four of the five were not true. alternative facts are not facts. they're false hoodss. >> stick with us. don't believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news. just remember what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening. >> when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth, he shouldn't worry, that's silly. because it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. he didn't have a conversation -- >> i don't mean to go -- >> it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. >> donald trump tv attorney rudy

giuliani is the latest in trump world who seems to be living in a different reality. back with us is e.j. dion, karine jean pierre and richard painter. it seems to be a consistent and a repetitive mantra from the trump world that the truth is not the truth. reality is not reality. dew point believe anything that they're saying. leave out reality. i mean, you just saw giuliani this morning. kelly anne conway and the president himself. this is the kind of atmosphere that we're going into the midterm elections. we're not just combatting whether or not one is going on the left or the right. we're actually debating what his

reality. how did we get here, richard? >> well, i'm going to say now the same thing i said after kellyanne conway first gave that interview. then i went on cnn shortly thereafter. i observed that this is part of a pattern that we say in the totalitarian political thought since karl schmidt was writing about how truth and law should revolve around the nation's state and not around democratic values. this notion that there is no such thing as objective truth is what lies at the heart of toe tal tearian regimes. we saw the left wing of academia and the critical theory and all that. those people had no influence outside of the academy. we see it coming back with a vengeance in the far right wing,

in the republican party. we saw it in tortured memos during the bush administration. now, under president trump, with kellyanne conway and rudy giuliani continuing to call into question objective truth is an extremely dangerous thing. there is such a thing as objective truth. not always easy to discern, sometimes easy, sometimes not. this is toe tal tearian rhetoric. it's dangerous from kellyanne conway and nobody held her and the president to account for that. it is time for the united states house and senate to convene a hearing to the judiciary committee to o remove this president. he and the people working for him are dangerous. their use of fascist rhetoric shows it. look at what were given by hitler in the 1930s and compare that to had rhetoric. you'll see what i mean. >> karine, the thing that is of

also deep concern is that when you begin to destabilize people's view of objective truth, then you can reorganize in that confusion the values at what is acceptable and the legalities that emanate from that. you can then uproot women's rights and civil rights and voting rights and anything else you want because we've now shiftishif shifted the reference points of what the country defines as what is right and what is wrong. >> yeah. that's right. reverend. we have a totalitarian sitting behind the resolute degs being in the oval office. we have a liar. we have a racist, a white supremacist. we are in incredibly dangerous times. we have rudy giuliani, a liar, kellyanne conway who is a liar and they seem to be allergic to the truth. what's happening here is that donald trump is sending them all out there to spew nonsense, to

lie and why is that? to your point, reverend, it's because they want to control the narrative. they want to make sure that 88% of republicans that are supporting donald trump in the party, it sticks with him, right. they want to make sure they control that narrative, make sure that they are redefining the truth to them. it's working if you have 88, 89 pergs of republicans supporting donald trump. here's the thing. the other part about it too, robert mueller, we're not hearing from robert mueller. he's a traditionalists. not leaking any -- he's ahead of all of us. so now what we're stuck with is this nonsense, this awful, awful rhetoric which is incredibly dangerous. >> e.j., you know the hill as well as anybody. is there any concern at all from some of the traditional

republicans, karine talks about how mueller is a traditionalist. where are the voices of reason in the republican leadership when you're actually having your president and his staff questioning reality? the truth. objective truth. >> i think that is one of the most disturbing parts of all of this is that most of the republicans who have been willing to say anything are on their way out of politics. i mean, jeff flake is leaving. senator corker is leaving. ben sass has spoken up sometimes and god bless him, senator mccain is ailing. beyond that, republicans have chosen to stick with trump because they see large parts of their political agenda being achieved and because, as karine noted, trump remains popular in

the polls. i think it's really important to underscore here that whether you are just sort of ardently anti-trump or not, this war on the truth is dangerous to the fundamentals of democracy. timothy snyder, the yale historian in that little book he wrote that became a best seller on tyranny, noted that if you don't defend the truth, you can't hold power accountable because there is -- there are no facts on which you can base an argument for what they're doing wrong. i think it's the case that the trump administration is trying to muddle reality, to throw all sorts of untruths out there to the point where people throw up their hands and say everything is partisan. everything isn't partisan. some things are true whether they're convenient to your side or not. i think giuliani's statement

today, the a period of time sis of where they've been going for three years. >> that's what disturbs. when you get the so-called respected leaders of the party that is not going to question this, i mean, donald trump made his fortune selling real estate probably at a price higher than he should have. that's how they make their profit. i understand he's a salesman. what i don't understand is respecting responsible patriots in the republican party that won't say hey, wait a minute, we're trying to get a condo sold for a markup we really sunt get. we're talking about the u.s. constitution. thank you, e.j., dion, karine, thank you for being with us. coming up at the top of the hour, the latest reaction to the big developments in the russia investigation. up next, more "am joy."

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nation every sunday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. before we go, we want to say good-bye and good luck to a beloved member of the "am joy" team. line producer lorena is leaving to become the senior producer on "hardball." . she started off as an intern on "hardball". she helped launch "am joy" and "politics nation". she's a world class producer. good luck. here is a message from a friend of ours. >> i love you. congratulations on your new promotion. chris and i will have to do some negotiation over him stealing you from me. we'll get past it. i know you'll be fabulous in your new gig. i will probably come and bug you from time to time just to visit you. also because you might be the

only person in the world who understands why i had to buy this while i was here in england. no explanation needed because i know we're already here. i love you. congratulations. i'll miss you. have fun at your going away party but not too much fun. love you. bye. >> more "am joy" after the break.

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saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, my friend alex witt has the latest. alex. >> i do. really good job. do you get anymore money? you getting a little more pay in that paycheck. you worked really hard. >> i think we work hard but we have a lot to work on. the pay is in informing people. >> what gracious thing to say. personally i want more in my paycheck. good to see you. a very good day to all of you. we are approaching high noon in the east. 9:00 a.m. out west. we have new reaction from the president's legal team to that report about white house counsel meeting with special investigators. >> you would take that meeting. >> from the russian government? >> she didn't represent the russian government. >> rudy giuliani's new take on trump tower meeting. plus. >> is donald trump in your mind

a racist? >> yes, donald trump is. >> i told you the rev wav was working overtime today. what she said about race. talking about special counsel and being called a dog by the president. we're back with some new reaction from president trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani whose lashing out at special counsel robert mueller over the new york times that white house counsel don mcgahn has cooperated extens extensively. here is what rudy giuliani told chuck todd earlier. >> someone said i have information about your opponent, you would take that meeting. if it happens to be -- >> from the russian government in. >> she didn't represent the russian government. she's a private citizen. i don't know if they knew she was russian at the time. >> i think they knew she was