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tv   Kasie DC  MSNBC  August 19, 2018 4:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪ ♪ ♪ welcome to "kasie d.c." i'm kasie hunt. we are live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight, national insecurity as war breaks out over security clearances. plus, breaking this evening, the white house doesn't actually know how much their own general counsel has been telling the mueller investigation. inside the scramble to find out. and later, federal official claims none of the migrant children handled by the u.s. government have been lost. joined by republican senator rob portman who dispels that remarkable claim.
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in a moment, we're going it talk about new reporting there is a sense of uncertainty throughout the trump legal team over don mcgahn and what exactly he's been telling the special counsel. but we begin through the looking glass. >> why is everybody so obsessed with the president of the united states they can't even begin or finish a sentence without mentioning his name five times? it's kind of weird. >> that's an interesting question to answer. part of the issue is stories keep evolving, like when the president's son met with natalia veselnitskaya at trump tower. >> the trump tower meeting itself is at least evidence of you better investigate. >> it's not. >> how is it not? >> well, because the meeting was originally for the purpose of getting information about, about clinton. the meeting turned into a meeting -- >> which in it tefl self was atd collusion. the meeting was intended to get dirt on clinton from a kremlin
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lawyer. that was the intention of the meeting. you just said it. >> that was the original intention of the meeting. it turned out to be a meeting of another subject and it was not pursued at all. >> and even the question of whether the president played a role in drafting a statement about that meeting has changed from no to yes. thou those specifics are damning enough. the overarching reality is this administration repeatedly insists you are entitled to your own facts. >> you're saying it's a falsehood and they're giving sean spicer our press secretary give alternative facts to that. >> i think it's very important to point out that in a situation like this, you have over time facts develop. >> fact counting is anything we've never had anybody with a level of audacity he has, not even close. we'll leave it there -- >> it's in the eye of the beholder. >> no, facts are not in the eye of the beholder. you're always welcome to argue the case. >> just remember what you're seeing is what you're reading is not what's happening. >> truth is truth.
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i don't mean do go like -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. the president of the united states says i didn't -- >> truth isn't truth, mr. mayor, do you realize -- this is going to bad meme. >> don't do this to me. >> don't do truth isn't truth to me. >> joining me on set, chief correspondent for the washington post, dan balls. ken dilanian, former special assistant to the president and former press secretary for vice-president pence mike lauder. and white house reporter for the washington post sung min kim. thank you all for being here. i hardly know where to begin on this evening. but, dan balls, since you have spent many, many years, watched many presidents do this, have you ever seen before this kind of dissembling around what is true and what is not true in your time as a reporter covering washington? >> no, i don't think anybody has. we've seen presidents who have dissembled occasionally. we've seen administrations that have lied. we know that that is sometimes
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part and parcel to the way they approach things, but we've never seen it on the scale and consistency of this white house and this administration. and i think what we saw with mayor giuliani today was just another example of that. >> i think we actually have, if i can ask my executive producer ben to play that clip of giuliani. >> truth isn't truth. >> one more time. >> truth isn't truth. >> yeah, just so we're clear, mark lauder, do you agree? >> what i think -- >> it's a yes or no question. >> what i think rudy giuliani is talking about is that sometimes we have a lot of facts that are brought together to create an incomplete and not accurate conclusion. we've seen this time and time again -- >> does this administration -- when you take an oath, you sit down in front of a jury or a judge or at a congressional committee. you say, i promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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is that a statement that can no longer apply in government? if you listen to all these things many administration officials have said, it sure seems that way. >> i can what you'think what yo though, is you can take the facts -- and facts are facts. but if you reach a wrong conclusion by stringing a bunch of them together, then that's still the wrong conclusion. in a way it's like a brown novel. we're picking a bunch of facts to create an entertaining and fictional conclusion. i think that's what rudy giuliani is getting at. >> i don't think the argument there was anyone was trying to say there was already a conclusion, but rather that there have been several very specific events that have facts associated with them, the administration has said one thing and another thing has turned out to be true. right? >> yes, there have been, there have been times when the information has changed and the story has changed. >> okay. so, i want to kind of dig into this a little bit further just because i think it's really important because this level of casualness with the truth has permeated all levels of our
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politics. there is texas congressman blake farenthold who resigned after using government money to settle sexual harassment claims, in a deposition and documents obtained by the huffington post, he claimed, quote, the f-tards won. when the republican governor of texas asked farenthold to pay for the election to pay for his seat, he talked about deep state and being the victim of a political witch hunt. there is the case of melissa howard running for a state house seat in florida. reports said she did not actually have a college degree, more fake news. and posted to social media the truth shall set yourself free and distributed this photo of herself with a diploma. the university of ohio steps in and said, no, she doesn't have one, doesn't exist. days later, she withdrew from the race. sung min kim, you and i are on capitol hill most days
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talking to lawmakers, a wide variety of whom, you know, have decent relationships with the truth. what's your sense of how much this erosion of what we can blee believe and what we can't is setting in? >> i think there is clearly -- has been a rising distrust in the media for awhile. let's be honest, the hasn't always had the highest approval ratings with the public. i think there is this rising skepticism from the public about what we are disseminating, what lawmakers are telling us, and a lot of that frankly has come from the president. this was something he did during the campaign, you know, using the media as his foil, calling us fake news. we saw in one of the clips earlier in a recent public eenlt, eenl event, you know, he sadie essentially don't believe all you hear. so i think lawmakers are seeing the president's tactics toward the media. several of them are adopting it as their own.
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>> ken dilanian, how much of this has a real impact on kind of the -- how the mueller investigation is going to play out? i mean, it does seem as though what this administration is trying to do in muddying the waters about the mueller investigation is sinking in with the public. >> in school i had a philosophy the truth was -- there were the conservatives who hated that argument. now the conservatives have adopted it. there is no one truth. this is a pretty cynical game in my view that is all aimed at what you just described, which is discrediting the mueller investigation for the audience that matters, which is the republican base and the senators and house members who are elected by that base who are going to eventually decide potentially on an impeachment motion and more importantly, a conviction in the senate which requires two-thirds. >> kasie, can we go back to giuliani for just a minute? >> sure. >> when he was talking with chuck on the program this morning, he was i think trying to say that jim comey says the
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president told him to layoff mike flynn and the investigation. and the president says, no, i never said that. so he's saying, well, there is no truth. but that means there are two sides to a story, but there is truth. one of those people is telling the truth and one of those people is not telling the truth. >> or maybe they're both lying and there is a third version, but there is something that actually happened. >> there is truth. when mayor giuliani does what he does today, it is as ken says, an effort to muddy everything, and to discredit, as opposed to what he did as a prosecutor, which was to get at the truth. >> and just as an aside, you know who does that and is masterful at it? the russian government and russian intelligence services. that is their whole game against the west. you can't believe what you see in the media. there's relativism. it's what aboutism, there's no truth. they do it all the time. now the right, the alt-right is adopting that in our politics.
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>> mark lauder, one last word response or you prefer we move along? >> i think there is, there is some relative we have to take a look at. i think we all, we all hold a certain amount of blame in this. i'll go back in october of, of last year where -- and i'll pull it off here. the george papadopoulos plea agreement was significantly enormous. it was more problematic than the gates and manafort indictments. he had already given up four other people. those were all things that were being talked about for 24/7 on cable news after the fact of a plea deal. now we know this week it was all insignificant. so we've got to be careful when we get into areas of prognosticating what we think is going to happen and what things mean and we find out the facts later are wrong. >> is that true? >> i wouldn't say it's insignificant. i think he didn't cooperate. at the end of the day they couldn't trust what he said. at the end of the day we had his
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e-mail and phones. they know about his interaction with the russians and they know who in the campaign he shared information who had hillary clinton's e-mails. >> that is an argument to wait for robert mueller and the team to gather the facts and present conclusions while the president's team is clearly trying to prejudice exactly what american voters feel about those conclusions before any of us have them. we should move on now. meanwhile, president trump and his legal team are firing back at "the new york times" after the paper reported white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating stenson. little with robert mueller's inquiry. the paper reports, president trump's lawyers do not know just how much the white house counsel, donald mcgahn, told the special counsel's investigators during months of interviews. mr. mcgahn's lawyer has offered only a limiting -- limited accounting of what mr. mcgahn told the investigators. according to two people close to the president. that has prompted concern among mr. trump's advisors that mr. mcgahn's statements could help serve as a key component for a damning report by the
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special counsel robert mueller. here's rudy giuliani again on "meet the press" this morning. >> john dowd yesterday said, i'll use his words rather than mine, that mcgahn was a strong witness for the president. so i don't need to know much more about that. they don't have collusion or conspiracy as brennan pointed out. and -- >> how do you know that? you say this so definitively. how do you know they don't? >> i know they don't because, look, this whole mcgahn thing leaked from them. if they had, if they had some kind of evidence that there was collusion or there was obstruction, don't you think it would have been leaked? i mean, they leak everything else. >> ken dilanian, what in your view is the significance of what we now know about the mcgahn testimony? and while, yes, the white house had been arguing as recently as this morning that they were fine with it, there were still information down in that story -- the first story at the times, mcgahn thought he was
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potentially being set up. >> that was a jaw-dropping story. if they were fine with it they didn't read the story carefully. it made clear don mcgahn sees himself as the white house counselor lawyer protecting t office of the presidency and not donald trump. he thought he was trying to set him up. he made the decision to cooperate with robert mueller. went in there three times, 30 hours of interviews, and the white house does not know what he said. the story suggested that he talked about those episodes where trump was pressuring him to fire mueller and he was resisting because he knew it was improper. that could be damaging. he's the only witness that can give mueller this sort of intimate details of those exchanges. could be very important. >> dan balls, were you surprised by this, the john dean comparison in particular. you've seen this arc play out. that's a pretty striking historical comparison. >> it is. to have the white house counsel in a sense cooperating fully, even if blessed by the white house initially with the special prosecutor, and now to recognize
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as they seem to tonight or earlier today that they didn't really know everything that he had to say. puts him in a very difficult position. i think it is a reminder the president's legal counsels throughout this, not the white house counsel, but his personal, have not served him well. almost from start to finish. and whether it was the original team or now mayor giuliani, things are said, things are done and they come back and they cause them problems at the end. so this, i think, this has to be very worrisome. we don't know whether he will turnout to have been a good witness for the president or whether he will have undermined the president. but if you are in the president's situation right now and you don't fully know what happened between those two, you've got a problem. >> has to be nail biting to say the least. all right. we have a lot more to come tonight. historian john meacham is going to stop by to offer his wit and wisdom. also going to be joined by congressman eric swalwell and
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congresswoman karen bass. first, a segment we call ken dilanian explains it all. we'll talk about what's going to happen in paul manafort's trial. that's up next on "kasie d.c." let's do this. ugh we're gonna be late, we're gonna be late! hold on, don't worry, there's another way [siri: *beep beepá] directions to the greek theater. ♪ can i get a connection? can i get can i get a connection? ♪ ♪ i can see it in my, see it in my reflection. ♪ ♪ ohhh can i get a connection? ♪ tryna find the old me man 1: this is my body of proof. woman 1: proof of less joint pain... woman 2: ...and clearer skin. woman 3: this is my body of proof. man 2: proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... woman 4: ...with humira. woman 5: humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain,
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it's the ultimate wifi experience. xfinity xfi, simple, easy, awesome. the president has said that he wants to revoke security clearances from some former national security officials who still hold them and who have made political remarks. is it dangerous to go down that road? >> he's trolling people honestly. >> the banana republic comments
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some of your colleagues have made. >> so, ken dilanian, that was earlier this month when the president was simply talking about potentially doing this. he of course since has revoked john brennan's security clearance. and most republicans reacted with basically a collective shrug. there were a few that spoke out, corker, flake, susan collins. but otherwise there has been a lot of condemnation of brennan himself. people are clearly frustrated with what he's been saying and how this has been approached. but what is the next turn of this? if the president were to expand this to more people, for example, brennan told chuck todd he might sue. >> i'm not sure he has much of a case, but if, for example, they're considering revoking the clearance of bruce orr, a currently serving member of the justice department, that would essentially fire him because he might not be able to do a job without a clearance. that would be a huge deal. we need to separate some of brennan's extreme rhetoric which is drawing the ire of republicans with the whole principle of what donald trump has done here. and there are a lot of
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republican cia officials or former officials who have come out this week and said this was outrageous. this is an attack on the first amendment and puts a chill on all the rest of us. you can't revoke somebody's security clearance for political reasons and that was what was done here. >> mark, do you think it is a defensible move? do you think the outcry on the republican side would be huge? >> i personally believe no one should have a clearance after your service, after a short time of transition, which is what the continuing clearance was, was meant to be for. i gave up my clearance the moment i left the white house and i was thankful not to have it any longer because i didn't want it. but, but so -- >> sleep a little easier. >> i just don't see, i just don't see there is a benefit to it. and what i do think is that maybe it's time that we have a system where it's more codified. maybe not necessarily a law, but a regulation where it says that you keep your clearance for a certain number of days after you transition out and if the agency in question still needs it, they need to make a case to say, we
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would like to extend it further for these reasons. >> dan? >> i think there are all kinds of things that probably ought to be reviewed about security and classification. i mean, i think there's probably a lot of stuff that's classified that shouldn't be classified and the press ought to have access or the public ought to have access to it. if there are rules, which there are now, and if there are, you know, customs as to how people keep these, then that ought to stay in place until there is a review. but to -- but there are rules for revoking it, and revoking it for political reasons i don't believe is one of the rules. so i think that's where the president has veered off in a different direction. >> yeah. all right. meanwhile, the jury in the paul manafort trial is set to convene for a third day of deliberations in just over 12 hours. jurors spent the weekend back home. so far unable to reach a verdict in the first high-profile test of robert mueller's team of prosecutors. manafort could spend the rest of his life in prison if convicted. he has pleaded not guilty to all 18 charges he faces.
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so, ken, we promised our viewers us were going to explain all of this to us. >> of course. >> so, the jury not yet reaching a verdict, spending this much time, some are viewing that as potentially good for the defense. >> yeah. and the questions they asked, including, can you redefine reasonable doubt? i've heard that question asked before. it's a common question. they also asked another technical question i won't be labor about ownership of bank accounts that seemed to adopt the defense theory of the case. it's strange. look, as a courtroom observer, this case has seemed overwhelming. the mountains of evidence, even if you leave aside rick gates, manafort's right hand man who is controversial and somewhat discredited, you have all this other evidence that manafort clearly evaded taxes and defrauded banks. but it's a dense, complicated set of charges. these cases, you know, there's no smoking gun, no tape of manafort saying, aha, i'm going to keep this money away from the
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irs. >> i'm going to launder these dollars. >> exactly. and i sort of wonder whether this jury is not ricven by the same divisions the rest of us in sew tig society are. this jury is not sequestered. they're wandering around the courtroom with reporters -- >> i was just going to ask you about that. how unusual is that? i thought juries, you were never supposed to talk to the jury. >> sequestering is rather rare, but it is unusual to have jurors roaming free. generally they're escorted by a bay lyft in their own elevator. they've taken an oath not to look at news coverage. every day the judge asks them if they've adhered to the oath. they say they have. i wonder if the assumption is consistent with human nature. they see the ten tv cameras outside the courthouse every day. >> part of me thinks life as a manafort juror is less stressful. thank you for your time. appreciate it. just ahead, congresswoman karen
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bass joins me on set as the midterm comes into focus, a simple question. should candidates be talking about impeachment or not. back after this. the employee of the year, anna. [music playing] (vo) progress is in the pursuit. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select models during summer of audi sales event. applebee's to go. order online and
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we are continuing to watch how the politics of impeachment could impact the 2018 mid terms
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and of course the 2020 presidential election to come. more than a dozen republican politicians activists and consultants tell politico they are increasingly convinced democratic house victory in the midterms and subsequent impeachment push would actually help the president in 2020. quote, proponents of the go for broke scenario argue that trump's at his best when his back is against the wall and that a move to impeach would both rally the base and make the president sympathetic to moderate voters. of course it's not just republicans who think that's the case. democratic leader nancy pelosi has repeatedly warned her caucus about the dangers surrounding the impeach president threat. here she is back in april. >> i've said over and over again that i don't think that we should be talking about impeachment. i discourage any discussion of impeachment. on the political side i think it's a gift to the republicans to talk about impeachment. >> and here's former white house chief strategist steve bannon in an exclusive interview with
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msnbc on friday. >> when they say they're not talking about impeachment it's because they looked at the cross tabs in the polling and they understand when we put impeachment on the ballot, that is a way to get all the deplorables out. even if the congressman in your district is a rhino you have to come out to support president trump. >> joining the conversation democratic congresswoman karen bass. thank you so much for coming on. i want to start with what we just talked through there. do you agree with nancy pelosi, this conversation sa round impeachment is something that should be put off, that should not be the center piece of the conversation for democrats? >> i don't think it should be the center piece. at the end of the day an individual running has to work their district. if that is an important issue in their district -- but i really think most voters want to hear about why should you elect democrats, why should you put democrats in charge. what are you going to do if you're in charge. i really think that's the more important issue. >> where do you think the energy of the democratic party is right
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now? tom steyer has been running around the country doing impeachment related events and has drawn crowds, reportedly drawn crowds in places like tulsa, oklahoma where you wouldn't expect a crowd like that. do you think that's where the entery is and th energy is and people should try to embrace that? >> i do think in some areas you find the energy there. and he's certainly finding it in areas you wouldn't expect. but what it really comes down to it, when you're actually talking one on one with voters, they want to hear about health care. they want to hear about jobs. they want to hear about how you are going to make their life better. yeah, impeachment, the investigation, trump, all of that is of interest. but when it really comes down to the conversations, they want know about themselves and their communities. >> i want to ask you about, again, nancy pelosi has come under fire from republicans. you know she has said, you know, they spend all kinds of money against her. they demonize her.
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saying that aside, if in fact she were not to be because she couldn't or she decided to step aside, did not become the next democratic leader, would you ever consider running for that post? >> actually it's not something that i have thought about, but let me just tell you that i do think within the democratic caucus there is a lot of talent. there's a lot of talent. there's new folks coming in. there are people that have been there for a long time. there is this concept of a bridge. i think there's a lot of discussion going on in our caucus right now. >> do you think you could serve as a bridge like that potentially or not? >> well, it's not actually something i thought about. i did serve as speaker in california, but, you know, i'm looking to be helpful to the caucus and doing whatever i can to bring people together. you know, i serve in a role right now where i deal with the rules of the democratic caucus and i've tried to take on that position in a way that brings people together. so my focus has not been on that. my very serious and honest focus
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has been on getting those seats and i live in los angeles where we have a lot of seats right around my area. >> right. what about jim clyburn? he is, of course, currently the number three in your caucus and he sort of floated the idea of potentially being that bridge that you mention. do you think that would represent generational change? >> i think mr. clyburn is one of the most revered and respected members in our caucus, and the concept of a generational change is something that people are absolutely considering. you know, when you are talking about a generational change, i think in some respects people are referring to age, but in some respects people are referring to people who have not been there for a long time. i believe what mr. clyburn is considering is the idea that he would serve for a short period of time as a bridge, and i do believe he's one of the most respected members in our house. >> at this point, what do you think is missing from the democratic message in the fall, that your leaders should be
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talking about more? >> i actually think our message is pretty strong. again, we're running on what we would do when we would get back, and the number one thing is health care. you know, the republicans have been killing the affordable care act one step at a time, and we need to absolutely deal with prescription drug prices. we need to deal with preexisting conditions. the advertising so people know to sign up for the affordable care act. jobs, it's great that unemployment is down. however, you know in many places in the country people are working two and three jobs. people need to make more money. looking at those two things. number one and number two, the issues we should focus on. >> sometimes it's not how the campaign plays out. i have this ad and then we'll talk about it. >> they shutdown the government, resigned in shame, paid hush money and tried to end medicare and social security. here's what republicans might have to answer for next.
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jim jordan. remind you of joe paterno? kevin mccarthy, paul ryan's protege with a lot of baggage. and steve scalise linked to kkk leader david duke. no wonder they aren't looking out for you. >> is that ad fair? >> well, i think there's a lot of facts in that ad, but it is a negative ad and i would certainly like to see us run on a more positive message. that might be an ad that's focused in a pretty heavy republican district where you're really trying to critique the republican leader should inashi where have they gotten us? not very far. as democrats we need to show we are for the people, for the average person, not just passing tax cuts for the wealthy which is what the republicans have done, taken away health care. they couldn't repeal it, but what they've been doing is murdering it, death by a thousand cuts, and we need to do what we can to repair the affordable care act and improve
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it. >> all right. congresswoman bass, stay right there. we're going to keep you as part of our ongoing korchconversatio. a rising star is facing backlash for her treatment of the press. "kasie d.c." is back after this. a scratch so small you coulda fixed it with a pen. maybe you should take that pen and use it to sign up with a different insurance company. for drivers with accident forgiveness liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ stop fearing your alarm clock... with new*! zzzquil pure zzzs. a drug-free blend of botanicals with melatonin ...that supports your natural sleep cycle... ...so you can seize the morning. new! zzzquil pure zzzs.
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in 2018. this week ocasio-cortez has come under fire for excluding journalists. her decision to keep the press out of those town halls, quote, a nonstory. her campaign manager said her attempts was to try something unique with her constituents. but this experiment was likely a one-time deal and that future events will be open to the press. seung min kim, you have engaged with miss ocasio-cortez on twitter. this is how you point out how town halls do not work, excluding members of the press. >> if she had this for immigrants in the community or domestic violence as she pointed out in her tweet to me, we would have found it very understanding. but the fact that everybody was welcome to this town hall except for press, that's just simply not how it works. the press is there to be a
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conduit for the people in her community who wouldn't be able to make it to the town hall to spread the message that she is trying to get out to provide information -- i would presume she would provide helpful contact information. the press is there to get that information out. so it's just a vital part of being there. i will point out it's good she's having a town hall. members of congress don't hold town halls any more. there are other private functions that are made private that we don't like that are private such as fund-raisers. that should be open, but at the end of the day, if it's a public event, the press has to be there. >> right. because if you are a member of the press you are also a member of the public by definition. excluding anyone for being a reporter -- congressman, what's your advice to a newcomer like ocasio-cortez? she's had some miss steps whether it was questions about policy or reporters. >> when i was a newcomer, my advice is to seek mentors so
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they can show you the way. when i read about this -- i don't know her, i haven't met her yet. i thought she said it wasn't going to be open to the press and maybe she wasn't clear about that. but i think that a sitting member could have advised her about that. i certainly know that i had a couple of town halls -- and i do town halls all the time where i had to make them private because of the immigrant community being terrified about coming. and so we had to do it where it was quiet. and i thought maybe that might have been where she was coming from. but the chief advice to her, though, is there's a lot of members of congress who are always willing to embrace you and to show you the way and to tell you what it's about and to avoid making those mistakes, reaching out to sitting members of congress. i hear she's beginning to do that. i just haven't had an opportunity to meet her yet. >> interesting, she did make that point about immigrants as to why she would have done this. but, dan balls, this sort of raises a broader question, too, in my mind about how people do have a chance to interact with their elected officials.
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fewer members seem to be doing town halls, more are doing teletown halls or events where people have less of a chance to get to see them in person, or there were questions about creating these so-called safe spaces. as the congresswoman pointed out, then there is the question of truth tied up in that as well and how do we even know where our elected leaders stand. how do you think we should view this incident? >> well, i mean, in its simple sense, a public meet sergio garcia a public meeting, which means it's open to everybody. >> whoever wants to show up. >> as you say, members of the press are members of the public. when we were denied credentials along with a couple other news organizations by the trump campaign during 2016, we had reporters who went in as members of the public and were able to get into those meetings and cover them. so that's one thing. i think that for her, she's been overwhelmed in both good and bad ways by the attention that she's gotten. i mean, she became a phenomenon
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because of what she was able to do in that race, and a lot of people have just wanted to be around her. she draws huge crowds when she's gone out to campaign for other candidates. i think their press operation is totally overwhelmed by the number of requests they are getting and i think they are trying in one way or another to push that back. and as you said, she's made some mistakes on the trail with some factual issues. and for somebody who is brand-new to this as she is, that can be painful. and so you want to protect yourself. i think your broader point is the one that's concerning, and that is i think across the board for a variety of reasons, public officials are less willing than they have been almost year by year. we've seen this, to engage with the public, to engage with the press in ways they once felt comfortable with. public officials are not as comfortable with those interactions as they once were and i think that does create a
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barrier and it creates a gap. and i think it's one reason why there is more cynicism about politics generally. >> yeah, and of course, more distrust generally speaking. dan balls, congresswoman karen bass, thank you for your perspective tonight. when we continue, president trump is in search of his wartime consigliary with no roy cohn to turn to. dr. kelli ward joins me from arizona live. up next. let someone else do the heavy lifting. tripadvisor compares prices from over 200 booking sites
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president trump's name was not on the ballot, but he came out a winner during this tuesday's primary elections. in minnesota supporter jeff johnson won his primary over tim polenti who has criticized the president in the past. in kansas the president backed kris kobach. he has yet to endorse a candidate in the arizona senate elections. all three are running towards trump's message ahead of the competitive primary next tuesday. one of those candidates, republican kelli ward, joins me now from phoenix, arizona. dr. ward, thanks for being on the show tonight. >> thanks, kasie, glad to be here.
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>> i want to start by asking, why hasn't president trump endorsed you? >> you know, i've heard through the grapevine and in the press that he likes everyone in the race. i've also heard maybe i'm his favorite. i like to hear that. i think he's ready to let the people of arizona decide. i've heard from people again and again and again that trump's base is kelli ward's base, my base. and that the people that support me want the president to support me and i would love to have his endorsement, but the most important endorsement right now and on august 28th is that of the voters of arizona. and i think i've got that. >> do you think that you can win if the president doesn't put his finger on the scale in your favor? >> of course, i do, yes. because i'm traveling all over the state. i'm meeting with people, voters in every corner of our state and they really want something different. they don't want another senator cut from the same cloth as john mccain and jeff flake and martha mcsally is exactly that. she's supported by mitch mcconnell. she's supported by the never trump swamp.
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you know, you see cory gardener, senator gardener coming out and begging president trump to endorse martha because he knows they need that finger on the scale because the people of arizona want ward. >> mitch mcconnell and mitch mc republicans in washington seem to be concerned that you couldn't win a general election. do you see any truth at all in that argument? >> i don't because there's not one shred of evidence that martha mcsally could win the general when i can't. this is our chance in arizona to actually have a true conservative in washington, d.c. in the united states senate from our state. it might be our last chance for decades to come, maybe ever, to be able to get somebody that's cut from the same cloth as ronald reagan, as rand paul, as ted cruz, as mike lee. people are looking for people like that. i'm so honored to have the endorsement of my own congressman, congressman paul gosar who has been working with martha mcsally for two terms and he understands she is not the partner that he wants in the
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united states senate. so i'm forward to getting to washington and getting things done. not just for people in the republican party, but people who haven't chosen a party, people who are independent, and people who are democrats who are having to walk away because of the extremism within the democrat party. the socialistic tendencies, the love of open borders, the desire to have medicare for all, and, you know, prioritize ms-13, those things are driving people to us, and i look forward to serving them in washington. >> i would just push back and say i have not heard a democrat in your state argue for quote/unquote open borders. i understand that's how you're characterizing it. i want to get back to, you mentioned paul gosar who you said is supporting you and it's been reported you're going on a statewide bus tour that will include congressman gosar as well as some other personalities, and mike cernovich who is known as somebody on the alt-right. do you support his views, generally speaking?
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>> i don't really know what mike cernovich's views are, and he's got an audience. we want to serve everyone. i want to serve republicans, independents, people who aren't political at all, and i want to serve those democrats who are rejecting the radical left. >> mike cernovich has been associated with the pizza gate conspiracy theory. do you believe what's been said about hillary clinton, and pizza, and all of this nonsense that has been on the internet? >> all i know about hillary clinton is that she would have been a terrible president. and i am so thankful every single day she isn't in the white house. i'm thankful that we have donald trump who's fighting for that america first agenda to secure the border, build a ball, take care of our veterans, muck our military is strong, continue to grow the continue, and we've got
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to get fiscal conservatives in washington on the right and on the left. i'm the only fiscal conservative in this race, because i'm the only mom in the race. >> do you think the republican party should embrace the so-called alt-right? >> you know, i think that the republican party and the people of the united states should embrace making america great again. and the way we do that is -- >> that's not what i asked. that's the president's campaign slogan. i'm asking about the alt-right. >> the alt-right, the alt-left, the radical left, the radical right. >> i'm talking specifically about the alt-right. >> i'm not a part of the alt-right. i don't know what you're asking. >> you have an alt-right figure on the bus tour. >> i have someone you're calling the alt-right figure. please tell me what it is, and i'd be glad to answer your question. >> the alt-right has been
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generally described to encompass a variety of elements of people who -- it's an umbrella term that covers many of these various lines of thinking. i'm wondering if that represents your campaign. >> i think that that's a ridiculous statement. my campaign represents faith, family and freedom. >> so -- >> mike cernovich has an audience we want to reach, that includes republicans, conservatives, liberals, democrats, people of all ilks. if he's coming on the bus tour, i think that he'll have a voice and he'll have something that he wants to say. i know that my campaign is about faith, family and freedom. it's about smaller government, lower taxes, personal responsibility, and following the constitution. i think that's why so many people, on the right and on the left, are flocking to this effort to get someone new in washington. i heard your segment before, you
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were talking about congresswomen and congress people kicking the press out of their events, both of women running against me have refused to have many town halls and have kicked the press out of their events. i want to open things up. i want transparency, and i want to bring back the representative republic that our founders envisioned. the only way to do that is by having a two-way communication between the people who are represented and the people who are doing the representing. so i can't wait to get to washington and get to work. >> all right, dr. kelli ward, thank you for coming on the show tonight. >> thanks, kasie. jon meacham joins us for the history lesson the president asked for on joseph mccarthy. eric swalwell joins me on set. and the most outrageous claims of the week from a government official, wait till you hear this. worst, the dvr, our team of
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another week, another norm shattered. >> the president's efforts to silence his critics. >> he stripped former cia director brennan's clearance. >> and is reviewing the status of nine other current and former officials. >> brings back the whole concept of the enemies list. >> enemies list. >> enemies list. >> i don't want to see an enemies list. >> i think i these to speak out. >> we have something called free speech in this country. >> there is a line, and somebody
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can cross it. >> john brennan abused his privilege. >> our complaint is not just about this, it's about the whole tone, tenor and behavior of the administration. >> john is now in the political arena. >> he and others in the obama administration were politicizing intelligence. >> brennan has put political purposes above national security. >> i don't believe i'm being political at all. >> "the new york times" bombshell report, don mcgahn has been cooperating fully with robert mueller's investigation. >> the president encouraged him to testify, is happy that he did. >> this shows what a "c" level legal team the president had. >> began with a strong witness for the president. >> bad legal advice, bad lawyering, this is the result of it. >> it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. he didn't have a conversation. >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go like -- >> it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. welcome to the second hour of kasie dc.
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and msnbc contributor jon meacham, the author of the book "the soul of america, the battle for our better angels." john, we'll start with you. president trump tweeted, study the late joseph mccarthy. rigged witch hunt. could you please give us all a history lesson about joseph mccarthy, and how this is relevant, or not? >> yeah. this is a case where i think he's suggesting the wrong course. the more you look at joe mccarthy, the more you realize that joe mccarthy has become president, not the joe mccarthy is working in the special counsel's office. joe mccarthy was a junior senator from wisconsin on lincoln's birthday in 1950. he gave a speech in wheeling, west virginia where he said he had in his hand the names of 205
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communists, the number wandered down in the state department, the number wandered down to 57, and ultimately he didn't find any. he came to anti-communism late. there were communist agents in the government but they'd been largely taken care of by the truman administration. the lesson was, mccarthy was a freelanced reporter entranced by his own name in print, on the radio and on television. he was a figure of a new modern media age that was unfolding in the early 1950s, and was ultimately undone according to his own rudy giuliani, a man named roy cohn, who was donald trump's lawyer, was undone
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because he exaggerated too much. he overstated. he didn't deliver on what he had promised. and the idea that donald trump would be offering the charge of mccarthyism toward anyone else, the word irony no longer that has any application in our era. but it blows it up beyond recognition at this point. >> and it all, of course, is cyclical. get to brand new reporting from the "new york times." and yet another concerning headline for this president. this one reads, quote, trump's lawyers' sudden realization, they don't know what don mcgahn told mueller's team. the paper reported yesterday that mcgahn has been cooperating extensively with the special counsel's russia inquiry, and now reports mr. mcgahn's lawyer only provided a limited accounting of what mr. mcgahn said during some 30 hours of questioning. "times" writes the president seemed to be obsessed with the role john dean played as an
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informant to watergate, mcgahn reportedly told others he was determined to avoid the same fate as dean. as for dean himself, he tweeted this weekend that mcgahn is doing right. oh, and politico reported tonight that michael cohen's lawyer lanny davis has been reaching out regularly to mcgahn. since we're speaking history with john dean, fascinating that both the president of the united states, as well as his lawyer are thinking about john dean in this particular moment because dean himself did what he did, and please help fill in the gaps for somewhere our viewers who may have forgotten these bits of their american history classes. essentially he was afraid he was going to be the scapegoat. >> absolutely. dean was very young, i think 32,
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33 years old when he was in the nixon white house, brought in as white house counsel, in and out of a number of meetings in the very hard hitting nixon white house. he was the first real break in the administration as watergate began to unfold. the watergate break-in was june 17th, 1972. the watergate hearings didn't start, i think, until may of '73. then the drama took another 14 months or so until nixon resigned. dean was that figure as the hearings were taking off who was incredibly adept at framing the issue. as he famously said, i believe there was a cancer growing on the presidency, by which he meant the nixon coverup which was ultimately proven out by the tapes where nixon was saying we should use one agency to block another agency to keep the investigation from unfolding. one of the things i think is so interesting about the invocation
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of john dean at this point is, remember, trump's frame of history is not what i would call wide. but because of his long-time -- i'm trying to be -- it's sunday, so we're being nice. but because of roger stone, and stone, of course, was a great nixonite and a long-time trump adviser, the nixon example is very real to president trump. and dean is in the world, the iconography of nixon and watergate, dean is the rat as trump, there's freud for you, as trump said this weekend. so there is this obsession. i think that -- and i would think this. so take it for what it's worth. i think the fact that the president has both invoked joe mccarthy and watergate in a very short period of time does suggest that he feels the walls closing in.
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those are the two of the most p divisive, devastating stories. mccarthy died an alcoholic death in 1957 and president nixon had to leave washington in disgrace. i think there's something telling about the fact that these are the examples that the president's going back to. >> shawna thomas, what's your take on that? >> the president is learning the right lesson about what the white house counsel's job is by invoking john dean. it seems he confuses a lot of things, he calls it a witch hunt, is he talking about himself and collusion or is he talking about the overall idea of what mueller is investigating. the white house counsel is not his personal lawyer, and i think that is starting to become very clear to the president. and maybe his personal lawyers,
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like rudy giuliani is telling him that, it's not don mcgahn's job to protect president trump, it's his job to protect the presidency. if that also combines with don mcgahn protecting himself from having to go to jail, which i believe john dean had to do in that situation, don mcgahn is working for himself, the white house and the american people. he doesn't work for president trump. >> the "times" did report this winter that trump has been frustrated with his legal team, with preventing attorney general jeff sessions from recusing himself from the russia investigation, quote, mr. mcgahn was unsuccessful and the president erupted in anger in front of numerous white house officials saying he needed his attorney general to protect him. mr. trump said he expected the official to safeguard him the way robert kennedy as attorney general had done for his brother and eric holder had for barack obama. mr. trump then asked, where's my
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roy cohn. cohn was a mentor to trump who prosecutes julius and ethel rosenberg. and later fought back, wave after wave, of federal charges, tooth and nail. >> i'm outlining 15 specific documentable instances where morgan's office called down ladies i go with, and interrogated them, frightened lawyers out of the office, gotten a hold of every bank in which i deal and my firm deals. >> this latest indictment is deceitful, dishonest and a cheap grand stand plays. he tries his cases with the smear headlines and he loses them when they get to court. this thing is made up out of whole cloth and is just a continuation of mr. morgan's vendetta against me. >> i wonder with rudy giuliani has been studying those tapes. rick tyler, this is a president
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who, to a certain extent, seems to be increasingly on an island, his original legal team is no longer working for him. the lawyers inside the white house, don mcgahn, has cooperated with mueller's team. jeff sessions, obviously, still recused. to a certain extent. it's clear that it seems as though the walls are closing in, as shawna notes. so what's -- what's next here? >> well, if you don't have a subscription to the "new york times." you really should get one. the stories are really amazing. it really walks through. you have to remember, it was dowd who had this strategy we're going to be transparent, right, and that kind of led over into where mcgahn was and then mcgahn was told to fire jeff sessions. he attempted to do that. but i think in that process he realized that he was putting himself at risk. what's shocking here is it took this long for us to see, and i don't know the white house, and apparently the president, to
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know that don mcgahn was cooperating. he knew he was cooperating. to what extent he was cooperating. but to the extent that don mcgahn is actually trying to, one, as shawna said, he understands that he represents the presidency, or -- not donald trump personally, but second that he could be caught up in all this and it looked as if he was protecting himself donald trump actually setting him up to be the fall guy. in other words, when the proverbial hit the fan, he was going to be able to say i got all this terrible legal advice from don mcgahn. >> that's essentially where the john dean comparison comes from, dean, part of what spurred his cooperation was his own fear that he was going to be scapegoated. don mcgahn is an interesting figure to me. i remember, i stood and watched a lot of trump's announcement standing next to him in the lobby of trump tower. i was surprised to see him because he was somebody who has been around washington a long time, worked on the federal election commission, you bump
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into him at cap lounge or wherever we used to go when we were in our 20s. but there he was at the announcement. sometimes people forget he was kind of involved in the campaign at its earliest stages and incarnations and has really been, you know, kind of -- sometimes not necessarily the central player, but oftentimes in the room. >> yeah, and people are -- that's one of the issues with the comey situation was how much does don mcgahn know about what president trump told comey and that kind of thing. but i also think he's someone who's been around d.c., but also was working for president trump when he was candidate trump to a certain extent. he probably also had to kind of grow into that job too, the job of white house counsel. he had to figure out what it entailed. and probably the idea of being the guy behind trying to convince jeff sessions not to recuse himself was probably alea lesson for him. jeff sessions works for the american people and the department of justice. don mcgahn was probably learning
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on the job and perhaps he has also read john dean's book and has now figured out how she should be handling this. that doesn't mean don mcgahn is not doing his job well as white house counsel, but i do think it means he needs to figure out how this affects him personally. >> that's been a consideration as well that's weighed very heavily on a lot of people who have departed the white house as well. he's in a very critical position. we're talking with a reporter on silicon valley. but congressman eric swalwell of california joins me live. his trip to early voting states and whether he'll join the cast of thousands of democrats running for president in 2020. nfl regular season hasn't started and already the trash talk as begun in the u.s. senate. >> i didn't want to hurt the feelings of those senators that represent states that don't have pro football teams. >> we have the same number of super bowl championships as you.
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welcome back. the president's personal lawyer rudy giuliani threw out any notion that russian adoption was ever actually the reason behind that now infamous 2016 trump tower meeting with a russian lawyer, saying as we've known for some time now that it was always with the effort to have getting dirt on hillary clinton.
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>> if someone said i have information about your opponent, you would take that meeting. if it happens to be -- >> from the russian government? >> she didn't represent the russian government. she's a private citizen. i don't even know if they knew she was russian at the time. all they had was her name. >> i think they knew she was russian, but okay. >> they knew it when they met with her. not when they set up the meeting. you asked me, did they show an intention to do anything with the russians? all they knew is that a woman with a russian name wanted to meet with them. they didn't know she was a representative of the russian government. indeed she's not. if this is their case for collusion, good luck, mueller. >> joining me now for more on this, democratic congressman eric swalwell. the answer that rudy giuliani gave today, thee latest version of this answer, you have been been behind closed doors privy
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more than we've seen. does what he said portray anything your committee was told that happened? >> no, the e-mail was clear, russia's government offering support for candidate trump at the time. and for the president, this investigation is becoming a lot like his businesses, the liabilities are starting to outnumber his assets. so you have michael cohen who is, you know, under further investigation, roger stone it looks like they're tightening the noose there and the president's lawyer seems to set him back every single day. that's because there may be different stories, but there's always one version of the truth. the president seems to be on the other side of it. >> lying to congress, under whatever circumstances, is considered to be a crime, although obviously somewhat different from lying under oath. that said, given giuliani now, is there anybody who's lied to your committee?
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>> we believe so. we've asked to send transcripts off to special counsel so they can review that and make that decision themselves. we have a number of concerning, you know, stories that don't match up to the evidence that we've seen. however, not surprising, chairman nunez will not allow those transcripts to go out. we may have to wait until we're in the majority. >> another national-security related topic. john brennan had his secures clearance stripped by the president of the united states, the president saying he's out there saying things the president doesn't want him to say. john brennan has accused this president of treasonous acts. do you agree with john brennan on that? >> i think he's betrayed the country. president trump has. as a candidate, in the meetings he was willing to take, and what happened in helsinki, clear he's siding with the russians over
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our country. that security clearance is for our benefit. i asked a former secretary when donald trump was considering this, am i overreacting to this this is outrageous. did you ever use prior administration fishes to make decisions? he told me all the time. it makes us less safe. >> so to politics. you have said that you're potentially thinking about running for president in 2020? >> i'm going to do all i can to win my seat first, have a baby on november 4th. my wife. we have a daughter. i'll be there, hopefully. but, yeah, we have a daughter due. >> congratulations. >> november 4th, full term for us, midterm for the country, and i will make a decision after that. it will certainly be made under sleep exhaustion. >> why consider running for president now? i mean, do you think you have been in office long enough, you have the experience to hold that office? >> i do. i also believe that our country needs new energy.
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new ideas. and also new leadership. i think a page forward is the best path for not just our party, but our country. and so whoever emerges out of a democratic field, i do believe it will be someone who can see this as a big blank canvas who can offer a health care guarantee, invest in modern schools for every kid, can end the corruption of dirty maps and dirty money that just poison our politics. i don't think going backward is the answer for us. i hope voters look forward. >> messages on health care, health care guarantee, not medicare for all. >> to me it's medicare for all. >> health care guarantee. >> if you're sick, you'll be seen, and if you're seen, you won't go broke because of it. also that we would invest in cures. we're not making the investments in cures in our lifetime for parkinson's, als and cancer, we have so many data and technical
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capabilities, but we're so incremental in the way we govern here. >> congressman eric swalwell, appreciate it. still to come, senator rob portman join it is conversation, talk about his tough hearing with his federal officials overseeing unaccompanied minors coming into this country. my digestive system used to make me feel sluggish
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one of the central disputes in john brennan being stripped of his security clearance is whether he has acted in a political way, and whether that's grounds for removing his clearance. some have cited his behavior now and in the past. >> i don't believe i'm being political at all. i'm not a republican. i'm not a democrat. and many members of the congress over the years who have security clearances have spoken out forcefully against whoever was in the oval office, if they weren't from the same political party. >> i think he has been incredibly critical of the president, and i think that has put him in a political place which actually does more damage for the intelligence community. i don't think there's any question the president has the
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right to pull security clearances. that authority is very clear. at the same time, i don't agree with the president pulling it -- >> how did he become cia director if in the midst of the cold war he voted for a communist. he had a terrible time getting through the senate because, number one, he was in charge of -- he was in charge of -- he was in charge of the drone strikes, where you picked out the terrorists you didn't like and put bombs on them, instead of taking them and interviewing them. plus, he claims to be a great lover of islam, of the islamic religion, he says the haj was one of the most beautiful things he ever saw. how does all this square up? isn't this a guy who's an
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opportunist? >> he was referring to a goes for gus hall amid the cold war. joining me is nick confisore. putting you on the spot with what giuliani was talking about there when it comes to mr. brennan. who, in your view, i mean, there is a line that many military officials in particular, but also national security intelligence community officials walk where they try not to be political, but rather, instead, to stick to their areas of expertise. there are now a number of national security officials. while, yes, they have risen up to support brennan, some are saying the language he's using is clearly political. >> of course it's political. i think, you know, that he's kind of protesting too much saying it's not political. there isn't anything bad with being political. it's not a terrible thing. but he is an extraordinarily harsh critic of the president. there are obviously a lot of americans who agree with him, and some who disagree. it's absurd saying you're not
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being political when you step outside your role in intelligence and decide to get involved in the slamming and hitting on twitter. it's a free country. but the president has used his authority to punish him. what we see time and time again, the president will use tools available to him to punish critics and enemies, more of a war lord sometimes than a president. he uses the state to reward friends and punish enemies. >> sean thomhawna thomas, you'vn about this. what's your view of the back and forth? >> one of the things that i wrote about is that brennan and others kept their clearance to help the government. if gina haspel needed to call brennan about something he has the pretty quickly to be able to have that conversation. i don't understand totally where we are in this process and whether his security clearance has actually been revoked now.
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but for what we know he doesn't actually have the ability to do that anymore. the thing is, with john brennan, it is sort of an imperfect example in some ways because of his use of the term treason, and then backing away from it. and also because of some of the history and some of -- not everything that giuliani said in that clip, not that i totally understand, but the talking about the border, and other things, makes it harder to defend john brennan in some ways. if president trump follows through on the threat with the michael haydens or james clappers, then we have this feeling of is this going to have a chilling effect? that problem being if you have information that could lead to stopping some type of terrorist event or something else, but something you think the president of the united states isn't going to like when you come out with it, not necessarily, you know, an open court or anything, but behind closed doors, will you share it if you think your livelihood is at risk, or you think, hey, i'm
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not getting a paycheck anymore because he may take my clearance away. how am i going to pay for my kids' dinner tonight. that's the thing that's more worrisome than john brennan's security clearance being taken away. >> rick, this conversation about bruce ohr, a current justice department employee, it would be the equivalent of firing him. >> it would be. he would lose his job. and, look, so there's a lot of things that people can't -- there's no question that trump has rights to take away people's security clearances. as dan boz was pointing out earlier, and ken dilanian was pointing out, there may be a time to review security clearances whether people need them when they leave office. that's fine. we can go through that process. that's not what's happening here. the president is politicizing this, ohr being the best example of it. mentioning comey. politicizing it. so why use national security clearances as a way to politicize that?
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i would be perfectly happy to say, let's go through the process of deciding who has security clearance, and for what reasons they have it? but to say we're going to pick out these people who only thing they really have in common is they've been critical of the president, that's really disturbing. the other thing you don't want to happen, to pick up on shawna's point, is that you want people in the administration, and outside the administration, who get to look at classified information who have different perspectives on the facts. because from those different perspectives you can discern a course of action. that's called wisdom. and without -- if we're just going to give security clearances to sycophants, that's a national security risk. >> john feature an meacham, joh used the word treason, softened it with acts of treason, instead of treason in a straightforward way. that's a significant accusation to level at the president of the
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united states. >> well, it's one of the few crimes that's defined in the constitution. it's defined as giving aid and comfort to the enemy. and at heart that is what the russia investigation is about. it is the question of whether the president or those acting on his behalf at some point or another have given aid and comfort to an enemy of the united states for either in exchange for political benefit or information, or the promise thereof. it's a very tough word. but it's also, i think, one of the things we've learned, and we've been reminded of it again today with rudy giuliani's lesson on truth, is that if people -- if john brennan believes that that is the issue, john brennan has a first amendment right, and i would argue an obligation as a statesman to say so. the president, as rick just said, has the right to pull a
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security clearance. of course, as ever, the president's taken something that's probably totally legitimate and has made it worse. but we're not going to have any -- it's not as though we're living in an era where dancing around things works very well. i don't think that's actually useful for the life of the republic, if you will, which is a very grand thing to say. if that's what people think they should say it. if we've learned anything in the last two and a half years or so it's that people on one side of this divide in the country, which is the trump side of things, are perfectly willing to say and do mickey mouse anything. those who oppose the president should exercise their constitutional rights, their political obligation, to say what they think. and we ultimately, that's what the republic is supposed to be, it's supposed to be a clash of interests that eventually reaches a consensus for a given period of time. we certainly have the clash of interests part, the question
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going forward this year, and whenever director mueller makes his report, is going to be do we get to the consensus part? >> very tough road ahead it seems to me. jon meacham, thanks for your wisdom tonight. i appreciate it. coming up, you know those user agreements you click through on your computer or phone without ever reading, turns out they're important. nick confissore breaks down his cover story on the privacy report in silicon valley. what will you discover with a lens made by essilor?
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you do, too, but not in time. hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges... how mature of them. for drivers with accident forgiveness liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ one like some countries, the u.s. has no single comprehensive law that regulates the collection and use of the data we create and share every day on social media. tech giants like facebook, google and microsoft have profited from it. that's the subject on the "new york times" magazine cover story today, a deep dive in activists' quests to take on silicon valley. nick confessore wrote that
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piece. this was fascinating as somebody who is very concerned about this. it's something i feel like i don't practice enough, sort of data cleanliness in my own personal life. and i think part of that is because it's very difficult to find any information, if you're a regular consumer, about exactly what is happening to the information that you're giving away. you profile these activists who had something of a realization. can you walk us through their story and how they came to think they needed to do something about this? >> most people don't think much about the products they use, like google maps or facebook. people are cynical about their privacy, and worried that they're giving it away, but aren't sure how. this is a story of a guy in the bay area who decided that he would go deep on this and learn about it, and he got very exercised about it. he was at a cocktail party and heard from a google engineer that, in fact, google knew everything about you. if people understood that, they would be horrified. he began a quest to establish
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privacy law in california. against all odds, he succeeded. this law passed in june. probably the toughest consumer privacy law of the digital era in the country. and it all began with the idea, by this guy named mctag ert that things were not quite right, the deal they offered, take it leave it, was not a fair deal. >> is there any evidence, you say that this law enables consumers to see what information is collected about them and arrows them to demand information, that information not be sold to third party companies and if that doesn't happen they can sue these companies. has this law been tested in the public domain yet, are companies showing any indication they're actually going to comply? it hasn't gone into effect yet, kasie, it hits 2020. does it matter if california has bassed the law? the answer is, they've shown
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it's possible. they've created a psychic kind of level field to say it's possible to establish this regulation. companies will consent to it and make it work. it's now spurring conversations back on washington where people are talking, again, about a privacy law, even president trump and his staff are considering how to design a privacy law in cooperation with industry. it is partly in response to what's happening in california. >> and just to sort of get specific about, you know, the things that motivated this guy to do this, and what companies know about you, your story says, quote, they knew that -- they meaning goog. they knew if he had driven past that niek key billboard before finally baying those air force ones, a website might quote him a price for a hair dryer, less if he lived near a competitor's stores. these services, the aggregate -- how vieds surprised would people be to learn about the ins and
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outs? >> very surprised. it's essentially commercial surveillance. the business model of companies like google and facebook is to look at you as you do everything online and offline and to make guesses about what you'll buy, what you do, what your tastes are, combined with big data and commercial data, they -- they've established dossiers about you where they know almost everything, what they don't know they can predict, they know if you're about to get divorced or thinking of having an affair or thinking of quitting your job. it's partly guess work, but it's often accurate. and so what we're seeing is a total potential loss of any privacy you can imagine even having. it's all in the service of selling you things. so we're now seeing people are wondering, well, is that a good idea? is there a different way to do business with these companies? >> i keep joking that i'm going to buy a cabin in the woods and just dispense with all this.
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nick confessore, you are not helping me avoid that. thank you for your story. it is a good reminder to follow our show on instagram and twitter. still to come tonight, senator rob portman. may conversation with him is up next. our thinnest longest lasting blades on the market. next. from around the world. nobody else even comes close. it's about delivering a more comfortable shave every time. invented in boston, made and sold around the world. order now at gilletteondemand.com. gillette. the best a man can get. so you have, your headphones, chair, new laptop, 24/7 tech support. yep, thanks guys. i think he might need some support. yes. start them off right, with the school supplies they need at low prices all summer long. like these for only $2 or less at office depot officemax.
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-morning. -morning. -what do we got? -keep an eye on that branch. might get windy. have a good shift. fire pit. last use -- 0600. i'd stay close. morning. ♪ get ready to switch. protected by flo. should say, "protected by alan and jamie." -right? -should it? when you bundle home and auto... run, alan! ...you get more than just savings. you get 'round-the-clock protection. welcome back to "kasie dc," earlier this week i spoke with rob portman of ohio.
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we talked about his efforts to bring a sensibility to the government when it comes to thousands of unaccompanied migrant children crossing the border every year. >> there are no lost children. there are some families that don't take our call. there's a big difference. >> your blanket statement there are no lost children is simply inaccurate. there are lost children, clearly. i can't believe that you would think that because you don't know where 1,500 were in a three-month period between october and december of last year, you do know that a couple dozen of these kids ran away from their sponsors, that there are no lost children. of course there are lost children. that's the whole pioint here, n one's responsible. >> and senator rob portman joins me now. thank you for your time today. great to see you. i want to start by asking about that hearing, you pointed out that that claim that there are no lost children is simply not the case.
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whose responsibility is it to find them and reunite them? >> well, it should be the federal government. kasie, let me make sure there's a distinction here. this is a result of three years of investigation, going back to the obama administration, not about kids separated from their families when they came here, but kids who came on their own, over 200,000 kids considered to be uacs, unaccompanied children. the reality is that they go from border protection, border patrol and border protection to hhs, in short order, then hhs keeps them in a detention facility for a while. and then sends them out with sponsors. and my concern all along has been that these sponsors are not properly vetted, that we don't keep track of these children after they leave the hhs facility, and as you know we've had some horrible stories. i got started in this three years ago because there were eight kids from guatemala who were trafficked in my home state of ohio, forced to work on an egg farm 12 hours a day, six,
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seven days a week, wages withheld and so on. there have been a lot of terrible instances where the sponsors have not taken care of the kids. second, the kids aren't for the most abused them. more than half of these kids aren't going to their immigration hearing. we could argue that they're in the united states or not, but they are. but second, our immigration laws, it's just not working because nobody is taking spo responsibility. >> and this is set to be a big issue in the midterm elections a few short months from now. and you had a special election in your state than many republicans had hoped that it might be. and frankly the closing message from a lot of the outside groups was focused on immigration and highlighted on ms-13 and raised other concerns along those lines, and it wasn't about tax
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reform or judges or the legislative agenda, the republicans have had in congress. do you think that that's the right strategy for republicans trying to hang on in what is looking to be a tough mid determine season? >> you know, every district is probably different, but i was in that district trying to help troy balderson and he did win very narrowly. my issues were about taxes and the importance of keeping the tax reform in place, because it's working in ohio, especially central ohio where they're experiencing an economic boom. wages are creeping up, we're certainly seeing a lot of economic growth and we're seeing a lot of positives in places like central ohio and that's the strongest message and that's the one that i delivered. >> is this the end of the road for the republican legislative agenda, if democrats perhaps do
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sweep the house or at leastary yo the republican majority, is it possible for republicans to get any more major accomplishments done after this election? >> it's a great question, i know you have heard from people on thv this. i would point to the opiod legislation, now we need to do another round of authorizations to approve the programs and approve some funding. as you know, he was the author here in the senate of the last piece of legislation, the opiod recovery act. we don't know what's going to happen in the midterms, i think we just continue to move ahead and to try to work across the aisle as best we can. >> the prutrump strips john bren of his security clearance do you think that sets a dangerous
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precedent? >> i have been wrapped up in this issue of the unaccompanied minor kids for the last 24 hours, i haven't really plugged into the reasons, but what i have heard from some of your reporting is the fact that the administration is doing it because he violated the terms that they think are appropriate for those that have a security clearance, in other words violated the trust that was placed in him. if that's true, then there's a good reason for it. but i would want to be sure that there's a reason and that it can be one that is properly applied to others as well. the general practice is that when somebody is a former national security fish, you wof want to provide them enough information so they can be helpful to the current national security official. if he misuses that classified information, then there should be consequences.
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i just don't know enough about the situation yet. >> when we return here, what to watch for in the week ahead. flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. and 6 is greater than 1. start your day with flonase for more complete allergy relief. flonase. this changes everything.
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before we go, let's talk about the week ahead. >> i think that regulations are going to be rolled back for the coal fired plants. i'm interested to see what exactly that roll back looks
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like as well as what does he say on tuesday and what does joe manchin say about all that. >> joe manchin is in a potentially tough spot, i feel like he may have a chance to pull things out than some of the other democrats. >> paul manafort has something at stake here and that's mueller, because if there's no verdi guilty verdict returned, it will be a test for robert mueller's investigation. >> the impact is basically okay, can -- what we're all looking for is can robert mueller actually pull it out? can robert mueller take the evidence he has and get a guilty verdict on someone? ed and i think on both sides
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they may say he doesn't have all the' the'' -- >> i was watching kelly ward, she was in a tough race against martha mcsally. who do you think is going to pull it us? >> martha mcsally. >> even though the polls are close? >> the polls are close, but not that much. i think arpiao messes it up more than mcsally. >> does that graphic say 15% right now? >> 15% for joe arpiao. >> that 15 plus 27. we want to saw thank you to rotini the pig who belongs to one jeremy rosenberger, thanks
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for watching us tonight on "kasie d.c." we'll be back tomorrow night at 8:00 eastern, good night for now from washington. we're americans, and we never give up, we never quit, we never hide from history, we make history. >> mccain's not in it for the wins and losings of politics. he is politics. >> he is scandal. >> he was willing to walk away. >> and stuck b

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