thank you for watching. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we come on the air with breaking news. the president's former fixer and personal attorney michael cohen, the man who made messy things like extramarital affairs go away from donald trump, has entered into a plea deal with federal prosecutors. cohen has surrendered to the fbi ahead of a hearing scheduled to start any minute now, and we are awaiting a press conference from the deputy u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york where cohen's case was sent by special counsel robert mueller. to understand the significance of today's dramatic development on the president, remember that he called the raids on cohen's offices and homes an attack on the nation. >> so i just heard that they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys, good man, and it's a disgraceful situation. it's a total witch hunt.

i've been saying it a long time. i've wanted to keep it down. we've given i believe over a million pages worth of documents to the special counsel. they continue to just go forward. it's a disgrace. it's frankly a real disgrace. it's an attack on our country in a real sense. it's an attack on what we all stand for. >> here for the hour to help us understand the events we're witnessing and the impact it will have on the president and potentially on the larger mueller investigation, some of our best experts, reporters and friends. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. former u.s. attorney barbara -- i feel like we should launch a legal show today. and white house reporter jonathan la mere. chuck and joyce, we've been talking about the fact that cohen had likely done some sort of deal by thursday of last week. chuck, you said that his silence was deafening. joyce, you agreed the very next day. once again, you were both right.

but tell me what it means that there is, according to "new york times" reporting, there is a plea deal for cohen, but it is not known or hooking as though there is not an agreement to cooperate. chuck, is that something that could come later or is this sort of cooked at this point? >> it's not fully koo y cooked. it can come later, but if the reporting is accurate, he's pleading straight up, meaning he's just saying essentially i did it, you got me. but he gets some credit for that, first off. second, he can get more credit if the government wants to hear his story and he wants to give it. so not precluded. but we'll have to wait and see what the documents say. >> chuck, let me ask you tonight, i heard from two sources, one in the government, one out, that cohen, for reasons some known and some maybe not known yet, is likely not a candidate for a pardon. is that a legal analysis or is that probably based on the kinds of things he said?

we played that clip of donald trump call thing an attack on the nation. cohen, interestingly in interviews with george stephanopoulos and others, said the fbi was very courteous and respectful. he did not describe the raids on his home and offices as an attack on the nation. does that seem to be more that he softened on his stance against the fbi? >> he seems to. i recall him saying he would take a bullet for the president. maybe that's going into court and pleading guilty. but the pardon itself is a political calculation. i'm not very good at that. i don't know whether he's a candidate or not. but at this point, with what he has in front of him, what he did and what he knows, he seems like he's taking the smart path, the one where he admits his guilt, sort of takes his medicine, and hopes the court will give him some consideration for that. >> joyce, when you look at what lanny davis, michael cohen's attorney and spokesman held out,

he went on cnn a couple of weeks ago, suggesting that michael cohen could share information with robert mueller about what the president knew about that trump tower meeting. now, if that's the case, would that be the sort of thing that would make federal prosecutors interested in cooperating with cohen, and is -- who has the leverage in any conversations about whether or not he becomes a cooperating witness in any of the on tgoing federal investigations? >> the final say-so about whether cohen cooperates will rest with federal prosecutors. and there's no doubt that cohen has information that prosecutors would like to have. he obviously was involved in the payment to stormy daniels. he may have been physically around during the infamous trump tower meeting. and he has a lengthy history with the president. so he's likely a treasure trove of information. but that alone isn't enough to conclude a cooperation agreement.

cohen will have to be truthful will prosecutors, not just on his own terms. he'll have to tell the truth about everything. he'll have to disclose all of his crimes, and other crimes committed by other people that he's familiar with as part of a plea agreement. so there's always a dance that has to be done, and it may be at the end of the day, cohen can't fulfill all of the obligations he would have to fulfill to conclude the agreement. >> barbara, joyce did a good job listing off the things that michael cohen can speak to. we put together a list ourselves. payments to women, like stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. everything that went on in the trump organization. i think there's some tape we'll play in a minute where he implicates the cfo. you can follow the money for investigators. he, as we said, can talk about his allegation that donald trump had prior knowledge of the trump tower meeting. and all the potential business enter actions with russians

around trump tower, moscow. is that an appealing list of sort of a view behind the curtain, and are you surprised when we come on the air with reporting from multiple news organizations that there is not a cooperation agreement in the plea deal as of yet? >> yeah, i think that until now, they haven't been ready to even charge michael cohen. it was just last week that the special master in the case finished her review of all the materials seized from his office for attorney-client privilege and prosecutors wanted to be sure they had everything before they decided the charge. it's likely they haven't had a chance to review all of the documents and confront him to probe his extent to cooperate. so he plawants to made guilty, that's great. he can only help himself by cooperating. all of those topics are things that he can talk about. but there are dozens, potentially more, of things they

might find of those documents. they want to look at the bank records and various transactions. there may be other issues that we don't know anything about in the public, so by reviewing that, they can decide what value he has. so i imagine there will be a series of debriefings where he volunteers information. but with someone like michael cohen, you would only use him as a cooperator, if you can corroborate what he has to say to ensure he'll be believed down the road. >> chuck, does that process begin today? take us through what will happen when we see michael cohen walk into the courtroom at 4:00, somewhat happens next? >> so the proceeding today won't be all that exciting, nicolle. what will happen today, i imagine, is that the judge will go through with mr. cohen a colloquy, a back and forth, a conversation in which cohen acknowledges he's pleading guilty, because he is guilty. he admits to a statement of facts that he will have signed,

and the judge tells him what rights he's sacrificing by virtue of pleading guilty. but to your first question, when does this process of cooperating begin, does it begin today? my guess is it's already begun. both parties have to be satisfied and they have probably begun talks on that. that would be typical. that can happen later, often it happens simultaneously with the plea, but it can happen later. but it's probably already begun. >> joyce, nbc news learned that michael cohen is facing perhaps three to six years of jail time. take us inside how that number is arrived at, is that because of the nature of the crimes he's pleading guilty to, the one campaign finance violation, the bank fraud, does that sound reasonable, does that seem to leave enough leverage for federal prosecutors to incentivize some cooperation if

they want it or need it? >> hard to know whether that's correct or not. federal sentencing is a little bit of a confusing peek inside of some statutory confusion at the moment. there are both statutory law, which sets a map. it might say, for instance, a crime has a 20 or 30-year maximum. what really controls sentencing is the federal sentencing guidelines, and they base their assessment of the range of time a defendant can serve in custody based on both his prior criminal history and the product that's involved in the crime that he's being convicted of at the moment. so for cohen, what will drive any sentence he looks at is likely the dollar amount of conduct he's charged with. if he's looking at bank fraud or tax counts. potentially the election finance counts could have some additional time. three to six years might be a good baseline guidelines

calculation. for a white collar defendant like cohen who has never been in prison, even the threaten of a moderate sentence is a powerful one. >> we looked at rudy giuliani describing sort of the cohen operati operation, and it seems in hind sight, unsurprising that cohen ended up wrapped around the axle of sdny and facing three to six years of jail time. let's watch rudy giuliani explaining how he paid out money. >> it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. he funneled it through a law firm and then the president repaid it. >> i'm on a search for sean

hannity's face when he said the president repaid it. when did this start to look like it would reach the conclusion that it has reached today, that michael cohen might made guilty, might be facing three to six years of jailtime, and may ultimately become a cooperating witness in one or more of the investigations. >> i think when we learned about the search, the stakes were clear that it was high for michael cohen. a search can't be conducted unless a judge found there's probable cause a crime has been committed. i would think that when the stakes are this high, when they're looking at an attorney's office that has to be approved by the highest levels of the justice department rn, especial when it's a lawyer for the president, i would go as high as the deputy attorney general. so we knew that michael cohen was facing serious legal jeopar

jeopardy. it's been a wait until then. i think the thing that delayed any of this is the review by the master general of the materials for attorney-client privilege. now that's complete, they're ready to move on and sit down and discuss cooperation. and so i think that was the moment when we all knew something was up. they often say the hardest part for a defendant is the waiting, not knowing the uncertainty, what is my fate? so i imagine since that search occurred in april, these have been some excruciating months for michael cohen. while today is probably a difficult day for him, it also provides a sense of relief that he's moving on to the next stage. >> the other camp that is largely in the dark today from my understanding is the president and the white house. i understand them to be on the phone with outside advisers and others trying to figure out what they know about what's going to happen in this hour with michael cohen. and you could grasp if lthe lun

of the president's tweets where he described this as an attack on the nation, to the tweets this morning, where he is unraveling. take us through the reaction today, the mood in the white house behind you. >> well, that's a sense of anxiety that's been building the last couple of days, particularly the last few hours when news broke about cohen and this plea deal. publicly, it's been ssilent. the president has not yet tweeted. we have not seen the president yet today since this news started to break. he had a meeting earlier today here in the white house. there was some talk of letting the press pool in to get a look. we heard later that cohen did not come up in that meeting. also, the president of course, is going to a rally tonight in west virginia. earlier in washington, there

were thunderstorms. now it is rain. but they're still taking the motorcade, which means reporters do not have a chance to shout questions, which you see time and time again. we can all expect the president will weigh in tonight. but here in the building, people -- just what you said, they're trying to figure this out. they are waiting for his appearance in court as much as we are. they don't know what is in these court documents. certainly the campaign finance violations are of a worry to the president and the people around him. they want to see if the president's name is going to be in these documents. they're waiting like we are. but there have been people close to the president who said, even more than mueller, it was what cohen could provide that worried them. today begins that process. >> and the intersection between mueller and cohen is known. the questions that robert mueller has for the president, that he laid out for the

president's lawyers include, what communication did you, mr. president, have with michael cohen and others, including foreign nationals, about russian real estate developments during the campaign. the anxiety is rooted in knowledge of lawyers that special counsel robert mueller wants to ask the president what he knew about what michael cohen was doing on his behalf with russians. >> that's right. the anxiety is on two fronts. the mueller front as well as the southern district of new york with these payments to the women, which is going to be stormy daniels and others, part of what we see today. the president has -- he was clearly unnerved by that raid on cohen's hotel room and office back in april. it began a series of tweets that sort of eradicated -- every time rudy giuliani goes on air to give an interview, his attacks on cohen seem to get sharper and sharper, at one point saying he was an honest lawyer to now

calling him a pathological liar, and we should expect this to continue. they're going to continue to undermine his credibility to win the court of public opinion. but what matters now is the courtroom in lower manhattan. >> let me bring the panel into the conversation, eugene robinson, and rick spangle. and former senior advisor to the dnc. we've had a lot of conversations about what michael cohen knows about donald trump. i talked to a source close to the president who said he knows the stuff that really makes him blow up, the embarrassing stuff, the gross stuff, the stuff he tried to hide from his wife. >> exactly. that may be one reason the president is so crazy about this, because of -- he knows about the women. he knows about -- he paid them off. >> right. rudy giuliani told us donald trump repaid all the money. >> exactly.

so the existence of this plea deal has got to be very good news for president trump. let's see the documents. i just can't wait to see the documents. [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me ask you too, rick, to weigh in on the president's anxiety. the fact that cohen pleading guilty stands in contrast to what the president sees in manafort as someone standing strong. i was told that manafort, at this hour, everything is reality tv for this president, manafort is winning the pardon contest. listen, this is the guy we're all trying to cover. if it's a contest between cohen and manafort, manafort is winning. >> michael cohen has gone from being willing to take a bullet for the president to firing a bullet directly at him. remember, he's the fixer.

he's not really a lawyer. he's the guy that donald trump called when i need to pay off this woman. or when we need to figure out this deal with these people whose money is not really great or people who want to buy a house for cash. so it's not like he's a real lawyer, he would make the deal. so i think that is why trump is more concerned about michael cohen than anybody, because michael cohen knows where every body is buried. >> let's listen to michael cohen and donald trump doing some of their business together. >> i've spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up with funding and it's all the stuff. because here you don't -- correct. so i'm all over that. and i spoke to allen about it. when it comes time for the financing, we'll have to pay --

no, no, no. >> you couldn't make this up. i use "my cousin vinnie" too often. no, no, no. you could not make that up as evidence of incompetence and unethical lawyering. >> i would just be petrified today, wondering what exactly michael cohen is going to charge in -- what is going to be charged against him. we know campaign finance violations and tax fraud, we know bank fraud. this is not going to settle well with president trump. you look at how michael cohen wasn't just brought into the fold of the republican party, he was made deputy finance chair in april of 2017, and only in june had to step down from that role. so this has been active, even after what he did on the campaign, which we don't know but i'm hoping we'll find out more soon. >> and the president called him

the friday after the search of his office. we have brand new sound in from the chair and ranking member of the senate intel committee on the -- this. >> we recently reengaged mr. cohen and his team following press reports that suggested he had advance knowledge of a june 16th meeting between campaign officials and russian -- and a russian lawyer at the trump tower. mr. cohen testified before the committee that he was not aware of any meeting prior to this disclosure in the press last summer. as such, the committee enquired of mr. cohen's legal team as to whether mr. cohen stood by his testimony. they responded that he did stand by his testimony. we hope that today's developments and mr. cohen's plea agreement will not preclude him for an appearance before our

committee as needed. thank you very much. >> doug, this does not feel a very good day to be michael cohen. >> no. these huge news. and it's not a good day for the trump administration when you put this combined with flynn delaying his sentencing, and then manafort -- i mean, these are the very senior level advisers to the president, and it calls into question the best and the brightest claim that this president made that he was going to be bringing in the best and the brightest to the administration. he also ran as a law and order president. [ overlapping speakers ] he's bringing in criminals and corrupt agency heads into these positions. >> "lock her up" has a new meaning. they're locking up the entire former leadership of the trump orbit from the campaign years. >> yeah. we're going to need a little more jail space at some point.

one other point here, and it goes to your question, we keep talking about michael cohen's cooperation with respect to the president. but the southern district of new york prosecutors, any prosecutors, are going to ask questions that are much broader than that. tell us about everyone you know who did anything wrong. so it might be that he has something on the president, maybe he doesn't. but it could be that he's useful against the jared kushner or roger stone. if you're somebody who did something wrong and you confided that in michael cohen, i imagine you're going to spend tonight staring at the ceiling and not sleeping very well. >> chuck shs let me press you a little bit. it's a great point, and there's been rumblings over the last 12 months about all the people you named, especially people in the president's family. there are lots of questions about whether don junior is in trouble, whether don junior may have not conducted himself before congress or perhaps in

front of mueller's investigators. and cohen, having worked for the family, if you take comey's analysis that the family had a special mob-like meaning, could be someone who really does seal the fate of people in the family. >> he was the lawyer for the family. you're exactly right. and so i think that there's probably lots of stuff that michael cohen knows that the southern district of new york wants. and now it's a question of whether or not cohen is willing to give it all and give it truthfully. again, if he is, a lot of folks are going to have a restless night. >> don't go anywhere. we have breaking news in the manafort trial we want to bring you. we'll bring in nbc's intelligence reporter ken delaney. what do you know? >> reporter: i'm being told the jury has reached a verdict in eight of the 18 counts. that's about all i know. we just found out that the jury

submitted a note to the judge. the jury was called into the courtroom. we have producers in the program right now. and the word came out that the jury has reached a verdict in 8 of the 18 counts. so recall earlier today they sent a note wondering what they should do if they were deadlocked on particular counts and how they should fill out the verdict form. so this suggests they may be deadlocked on 10 counts and reached a verdict on 8. and it's not clear to me whether we're going to find out the outcome, or whether he will send the jury back to deliberate further. >> joyce vance, is this a common sort of point to reach for a jury looking at such complicated issues and financial crimes that largely rely on documents and a judge that rushed through some of that in the trial, what does that development sound like to you from ken? >> juries go through a lot of stages in reaching their verdict, and it's not unusual in a complicated case for them to

initially decide that there's some counts where they can readily reach a verdict, while others take more work. i think you're right, the biggest problem here that this jury faced, and it was a real challenge, was the fact that they didn't have the opportunity to see the government's evidence in real time in the courtroom. the judge didn't permit the government to publish it to the jury as they presented it. so now they're having to go through pretty much a mountain of documents, figuring out which documents apply to which counts, and putting that together for themselves. i suspect this judge will let them work a little longer on the counts they haven't yet agreed upon, before anyone thinks seriously about a mistrial. >> i watched barbara mcquaidche may need to hook at some things again. so let me ask you as a non-lawyer about what trials look like from the outside, do

we know if this leans towards guilty or not guilty, if they have reached a conclusion on 8 of 10? >> no, i don't think we do whether that means they found guilty or not guilty, just that they reached a verdict on those eight. the other ten, based on the note, they're deadlocked, which means they can't reach a verdict on that. i suspect they'll get what's known as an allen charge where a judge says try harder. there's no reason to think any other jury is going to find this job easier than you did. but at some point, a judge will accept that. and will consult with the parties to decide whether to take that partial verdict and declare a mistrial as to the other counts. but there could be a conviction, and depending on which counts they are, a conviction on eight counts might be good enough for robert mueller, it might mean a substantial sentence, if it's for example a conviction on the tax charges or some of the bank fraud charges. it might be good enough. so it's difficult to yes where things are hanging up.

but it's not surprising to me that it's taking them a long time in light of the fact that they didn't get a chance to see those documents as they were presented during the trial in many instances and they had to look at them and reconstruct it for themselves. so this could be one of the ways that the judge's efforts to hurry things along has harmed their ability to decide the case. >> ken, let me get -- you have an update. go ahead, ken. >> reporter: sorry. nicolle, i'm being told that the judge is now going to poll the jurors individually to determine whether they think they can come to agreement today on these counts that they're deadlocked on. if they don't think they do, he's going to send them home. that's all i have, nicolle. >> chuck, can you weigh in on that? help us understand the significance of what ken just reported, that the judge is going to pull this jury and ask them if they can come to some sort of resolution by the end of the day, is that a -- is that

sort of an ultimatum for this jury? is that common? do we see that a lot? have you ever experienced that as a u.s. attorney? >> i've experienced it. here's what it means. the rules of criminal procedure permit either party, the defendant or the government, to ask that a jury be polled individually. juror number one, is that your verdict? juror number two, is that your verdict? and have each verbally agree or disagree. here what the judge is doing is sort of related to that. he's going to ask each juror what they believe addition aal deliberation could help and they'll answer in open court. if they all seem no or most don't think it will be helpful, he can declare a mistrial and accept a partial verdict. one other point, at sentencing, and this is really important, and barbara alluded to this and she's right, at sentencing, all

of the conduct, including stuff that the jury didn't reach a verdict on, including stuff on which you're acquitted, can help fashion your final sentence. so what prosecutors need are a couple of counts of conviction. that makes him a convicted felon and all of his bad conduct can be taken into account. >> ken, you have some more information? go ahead. >> reporter: i apologize, this is being fed in real time. but it's my understanding now that the judge has said he will poll the jurors to determine whether they think they can possibly reach a consensus on any of the other ten counting on which they are deadlocked. and if they say they can't, he's ready to declare a mistrial on those ten counts. and the implication of that is we'll hear the verdict on the eight counts with which they have reached consensus. >> when would you expect that we would hear the verdict on the eight counts on which they have reached consensus, ken?

>> reporter: it sounds like momentarily, he's going to poll the jury, and if they decide they cannot proceed further, there's a chance he will send them back if there's any possibility that they can continue deliberating on the ten. but it sounds hi s like they've deliberating for three hours, after having told the judge that they are deadlocked on some of the counts. they don't appear to reach consensus on them. but they have reached a verdict on eight counts. >> joyce vance, what are you hearing that on eight counts we could hear a verdict, and a mistrial on ten counting. is that a victory or partial victory for the special counsel? >> it depending as barb says on what the counts of conviction are. but here it would seem numerically if i remember the indictment correctly, if there are eight counts of conviction, there would have to be some bank or tax counts included, the

counts upon which the jury has been able to reach a decision. so for mueller and the special counsel's team, if there are convictions on those counts, that would be a victory. as chuck says, all of the conduct manafort has been engaging in will be relevant conduct that the judge will consider in fashioning the sentence when they reach the sentencing point in the case. and so the important thing for federal prosecutors will be to get some counts of conviction. it's not necessary to have conviction on all counts. in fact, in a complicated case like in, it's relatively rare to see a jury come back with a guilty verdict on every single count. i've seen it happen. usually the jury splits the baby to some extent. >> jonathan, you have reported and discussed on this program the degree to which the president was driven mad by the manafort trial by the idea that we talked about him as the president's former campaign chairman, which he was. what is the white house saying now that we know we're going to

get some news from the jury in the manafort trial, the trial of the president's former campaign chairman? >> i'll be a bit of a broken record here. still silence from the white house. both on the cohen developments and now manafort in this latest news. obviously if we hear back, we'll let you know. but yes, you're right. this has really gotten under the president's skin in recent weeks, that these charges are not related to russia, that the name robert mueller is attached. the president believes this is government overreach and he's trying to send a signal to trump and his allies that he's coming for him next. and yes, he's told people around him that he feels like manafort, this manafort trial is almost an opening act and he's afraid of what could be next. he's concerned it could be don, junior, who he has told people he doesn't think don, junior did anything wrong willingly. but he's concerned that he may have gotten himself in trouble and he's afraid that mueller will seize upon that.

so this is remarkable. we have two different courtrooms. one in virginia, one in new york, with two people who, for at least a time, were in the innermost circle of trump world. one facing -- a verdict is about to come down, the other about to enter a guilty plea. it is a remarkable state that's where this president is, a year and a half into his term, where so much of his world and his presidency is being decided in court. >> ken delaney, you have more breaking news for us? >> reporter: i'm being told that, yes, a verdict is coming, nicolle, because the judge has decided the jury is hopelessly deadlocked. so we'll hear soon the verdict on the eight counts. and joyce is right about the breakdown. there are -- manafort is charged with nine counts of bank fraud, five counts of failing to fail a correct tax return and four counts of a foreign bank count.

so multiple categories must be included in those counts. >> eugene, let me put up something that aaron blake wrote today. this is what hiring the best people look like. people that pleaded guilty, michael cohen, michael flynn, rick gates, george papadopoulos. we'll get a verdict today with paul manafort. and indicted his first endorser in congress, chris collins. so this is the best people for you. >> this is what you elect donald trump as president of the united states. this is who he is -- >> a criminal enterprise? >> this is the kind of people he surrounded himself with. you know, paul manafort is on trial for tax fraud, bank fraud. everybody around this table knew

about paul manafort, knew about his reputation. you know, and so this wasn't -- this is not at all far-fetched. >> it was an open secret in washington. he had a dirty book of business. sman th explain that. >> that was an open secret. he represented a string of bad guys. he was that kind of lobbyist and influence peddler for bad people basically. that was well known. and you could -- it's not a leap to wonder about suspicious financial transactions. people kind of -- he was buying and selling a lot of real estate. we should be cautious since we don't know what the verdict is. >> we're getting some breaking news. i think we have -- is ken still with us? >> reporter: yes. nicolle, i can tell you that paul manafort has been found guilty of tax charges.

the first five counts of the indictment, failing to file correct tax returns for 2010, '11, '12, '13, '14. felony tax fraud charges, paul manafort has been convicted by this jury in alexandria, virginia. the rest is still coming in. but significant here. paul manafort convicted of tax fraud. >> barbara mcquaid, you've spent a lot of time in the courtroom. paul manafort has been found guilty of counts one through five, all tax fraud. what do you make of that? >> reporter: that's not surprising. to me that was the strongest evidence in the case. there was evidence that he controlled these bank accounts that were in cyprus, used them to buy goods, luxury goods, real estate for himself and the amount he declared did not reflect all of that income, which he earned in ukraine. so that was probably the strongest evidence in the case. not a surprise on those. those should bring with them some substantial penalties. and so i think that it is a

victory for the mueller team. >> joyce vance, let me ask you the same question. paul manafort, the president's one-time campaign chairman, has been found guilty by a jury in alexandria, virginia, of five counts of tax fraud. what do you make of that and do you agree with barbara those were the strongest charges? and also this is something that people understand, everybody pays taxes. maybe that was one of the easier pieces of evidence to process for a jury. >> right. the jury saw that a man who was wealthy, likely wealthy beyond the kind of income that any of them had, was out buying ostrich skin jackets. i think that resonates with juries. like barb says, and he's absolutely right, the evidence heesh w here was compelling. manafort was using loans as an excuse for income. he was hiding income that he should have reported and paid and claiming they were loneans.

he was then claiming he didn't have income, and trying to hide it and using that bank fraud scheme as a way of getting loans that he wasn't entitled to get. it will be interesting to see if the jury saw a connection between these two kinds of counts and if we'll see some bank fraud convictions, as well. >> ken, is there an update? i see you on the bottom of our screen. paul manafort has been found guilty of the eight counts. is that the correct number, eight counts? >> reporter: that's right. so we have the full verdict. in addition to the five tax fraud charges, he was convicted of one count of failing to file a foreign bank account, and two counts of bank fraud. one involving $3.4 million loan from citizens bank, and another involving $1 million from the bank of california, where he was accused of doctoring a profit and loss statement. manafort was charged with four counts of failing to declare foreign bank accounts for different years.

and the jury only convicted him of 2013. unclear why that is. this jury went through the evidence meticulously and decided some of the counts were stronger than others. many of the bank fraud charge involved accusations that he lied to banks to puff up his bank accounts. apparently the jury wasn't convinced on six of the eight bank fraud charges. they did believe two of them, though. paul manafort has been convicted of eight felonies, which carry a significant prison term. if he was convicted on all counts, he was looking at 14 years. this is not the maximum, this is guidelines for first offender. obviously it will be something less than that. now having been convicted of eight counts, but it will still be some significant prison time. >> joyce, speak to this no good,

very bad day for president trump. he has learned that his one-time campaign chairman is found guilty on eight charges here in this trial. i believe a mistrial has been declared in the other ten counts. also learning that his former fixer, his former personal attorney, the man who made uncomfortable and embarrassing things like extramarital sexual enkoirnlt encounters with porn stars go away. talk about this day in this presidency. >> it is starting to look like the truth is the truth and there won't be any running away with it. for president trump, the calculation is more about whether the tide will turn in public opinion so that the legislators up on the hill will be interested in pursuing impeachment proceedings. he's likely to watch the public polls a lot more than he is to worry about what the guidelines

are and what indictments are coming, the direction of other folks. >> michael avenatti is here. let me bring you into the conversation. paul manafort has been found guilty of eight of the 18 charges he faced in the trial in alexandria. and news that your legal adversary, if you will, michael cohen is pleading guilty in the southern district of new york. your thoughts? >> nicolle, if you hook at hloo swift this has occurred, the president has only been in office 20 months, and his entire criminal enterprise is crumbling around him. let's be honest, that's what it is, a criminal enterprise. there's another thing, and that is michael cohen's role within the republican party. i mean, he was co-finance chair until even a few weeks ago. but there's no question that

michael cohen pleading guilty today is going to have serious ramifications, whether there's a cooperation clause or not in that documentation is of little consequence, because i can tell you with 100% confidence that he is cooperating with prosecutors. whether they use that information that he provides to further a case against donald trump and others, that's a different equation. but it's not unusual to have a plea and not have the cooperation clause be part of the plea. and there's a number of reasons for that. >> explain that to me. >> sometimes prosecutors don't want -- >> it has to bear fruit? >> sometimes prosecutors don't want other potential co-defendants to know that there's a cooperation agreement. that's number one. number two, prosecutors also have at their disposal prior to sentencing or in connection with sentencing, a significant hammer, if you will. so regardless of what the documents may say relating to mr. cohen, there's no question

that he's cooperating with prosecutors and providing information that could or would be very damaging to the president >> let me just read some new nbc reporting about the cohen news today. the campaign finance charge does relate to hush money payments to women and may be tied to a home equity loan. last week the fogovernment's pl was to file charges, but they agreed to engage in plea negotiations. any of that surprise you? >> not at all. they've been in negotiations, discussions for a number of weeks. i know that for a fact. it took a while for them to come to fruition. i said a long time ago that this day would come and i said that michael cohen should have marched town to the u.s. attorney's office months ago and gotten out in front of this. i think ultimately he's going to pay a price for not doing that. i think he probably could have got a better deal early on. but this is not a good day for

the president. separate and apart from mr. manafort, i think what michael cohen has to share relating to donald trump is going to be very, very damaging. and i'm going to hold true to my predictions that i made in the past. i don't think this president is going to serve out his term. >> elise? >> that's a lot. so the cooperating part doesn't mean that much. you think this isn't that much out of the ordinary, that there's not some sign of immediate cooperation. >> i know for a fact there's cooperation going on. whether it's in the documents or whether he asserts it or not, that doesn't mean anything. >> you're saying you know he's talking. >> of course he is. >> i think we non-lawyers, cooperating witness is a technical term. >> he would have never pled guilty. but the point about the campaign finance violatioviolation, michn

operated as a lone wolf for president trump and did all these wacky things that are pseudo legal. >> we don't know. >> when it came to the campaign finance stuff, was he talking to people about the rnc? was he talking to paul manafort? was he talking to people on the campaign saying look, i'm going to use this money for this and this is going to prevent any of this for coming out before the election. do you know anything about that? >> i think the idea, and i've been say thing for months now, the idea that michael cohen would agree to pay my client $130,000 and donald trump would know nothing about it, and there would never be any agreement about reimbursement is absurd. it was absurd before rudy giuliani tripped all over himself and disclosed a bunch of information, and rudy giuliani is the best attorney we have working on our side. i want to be clear about that. >> speaking of rudy, he's in a little bit of trouble. "vanity fair" is reporting that donald trump blames everything

on rudy giuliani and says if only he had taken the job as attorney general. but isn't that another flashing red light in the obstruction of justice investigation? >> he thinks the white house counsel is supposed to do. he thinks they're all supposed to protect him, no matter what crazy/illegal/improper thing he does, they're supposed to protect him and keep bad things from happening to him, like michael cohen used to do out in the world. >> by the way, one note of historical trivia involving the person we were just talking about, one of the most successful u.s. attorneys for the southern district in new york history was rudy giuliani. >> of course. >> if you could help us get our arms around this day of the president trump presidency, again, about -- comey writes in his book about meeting this

organization, this group up at trump tower in january before inauguration, before the president's inauguration. and he writes extensively and in a colorful way this feeling hike they were a mob family. if you could flesh out a few more of these beats, that you have the president's campaign chairman, found guilty of eight of the charges he faced. you've got the president's former fixer colluding with the president on how to pay off -- i think it was a playboy playmate, it was karen mcdougal. and you've got the president fuming, talking about robert mueller, fbi agent for a democratic and republican president, donald trump calls him disgraced and discredited. take us inside this moment. >> i think it's a very significant moment and i think that one of the really telling moments leading up to this that is very revealing about it is president trump's reaction when

he heard that michael cohen's office had been searched, and he talked about how it was the end of democracy and he was so agitated about that. you know, i thought at the time it was significant that it meant that he knew that many secrets were about to be revealed. and i think today his worst fears have come true with a guilty plea by michael cohen. you combine that with the conviction of paul manafort, who still could cooperate, by the way, now that he's rolled the dice, maybe he sees the light and decides maybe i can cut a deal to dismiss my d.c. case, reduce my sentence exposure and begin to cooperate. so the walls are closing in on president trump. >> we have some breaking news from nbc's tom winter who joins us in lower manhattan. tom? >> reporter: so a little bit of a development here as the michael cohen plea hearing continues in court right now. it's still under way. michael cohen has pled guilty to

eight counts. counts one through five have to do with tax evasion from 2012 through 2016. there's an additional count of where he misrepresented his liabilities to a company for a loan. and then there's two additional counts that it appears directly involve the president of the united states. count seven, in or about february -- excuse me, count seven, on or about december of 2017, michael cohen told the court i and the ceo of a media company worked together with a candidate to keep information from becoming public, that work that the ceo of a media company believed to be american media, and michael cohen that work they did include the payment to a woman for $150,000. and if you would clause excuse michael cohen said in coordination with the same candidate, he made a second payment in october of 2016, just a few weeks before the election. he says i used a company under my control to pay $130,000 to a

person to keep information from becoming public. he said that he was later then paid by that candidate in restitution for those funds.fun. the judge asked him, did you know what you were doing was illegal? he stood up and he said yes. so michael cohen pleading guilty to eight counts. the hearing is still under way, nicole, but i think the most serious counts as relates to the president is count 7 and count 8 where it sounds -- we don't have the court paperwork. but it sounds that the president of the united states was directly involved with michael cohen in two payments to two women at two separate times and that that second payment, the payment made in october of 2017, he said was paid by that candidate. to be clear, the president's name was not mentioned in court, but because of our prior reporting the information that has since become public, and public statements, it sure does seem it involves president trump. >> is that your client, michael avenatti? >> count 8 relates to my client,

stormy daniels. and let me just say this. she has been vindicated this afternoon. i have been vindicated based on what we have -- >> reporter: we're being -- >> based on what she's gone through the last five, six months. and i applaud her courageousness and her fortitude in coming forward. i think a lot of this stems from her courage and what she was willing to come forward and do. the $130,000 payment, the count 8, absolutely directly relates to her. that's the payment that was made to her. it relates to the president of the united states, donald trump. and we're going to get to the bottom now in connection with the civil case as to what the president knew and what he knew about it and when he knew it and what he did about it. i mean, the likelihood, nicole, of me getting a deposition of the president of the united states under oaths just went through the roof. no question about it. and our case is no longer going to be stayed and we're going to press forward as aggressively as

possible. >> you say your client has been vindicated. has the president just been v d incriminate hd? >> i think he has based on this plea. based on michael cohen's statement that the $130,000 was reimbursed by the president. that is a significant problem for the president. and he's got a lot of explaining to do. he's in trouble. >> will michael cohen be a witness in your lawsuit against the president? >> yes. >> have you already -- i mean, is that under way? >> well, it's not under way but there's going to be a division in the ranks between michael cohen and donald trump. and i think the likelihood, again, that we get sworn testimony from the president on these issues is very, very high. it's going to be very interesting. is he going to sit for that deposition or is he going to plead the fifth? if the president of the united states pleads the fifth in response to questions from me, that's going to be a rather historical moment. >> i'm sorry. >> count 7 seems to relate to the other -- >> karen mcdougal. just based on the amount. >> the quotation we heard was that he worked with this

candidate, with the president. he directly involved the president in working out this shady deal. >> 7 is the one -- the "national enquirer," david pecker payment. and number 8 is the stormy daniels payment. and also -- >> through the -- >> correct. through essential consultants. and let us not forget the statements by donald trump on air force one when he was asked by the associated press reporter about the payment and he basically disavowed any knowledge of it and he said you're going to have to talk to my attorney. but you cannot reconcile, nicolle on air force one, that's the people's plane, by the way, those statements that just cam in lower manhattan. somebody's lying and i think we know who it is. >> joyce vance on the counts 7 and 8 which were focused on the $150,000 payment that michael cohen says was from the

candidate. $130,000 payment, which michael avenatti says was the payment to his client, stormy daniels. your thoughts. >> what i'd moemt most list lik and you all may have it at the table, is whether they're entitled to substantive counts or conspiracy counts u.s. code section 371. but without regard to which of those styles the count bears it sounds like the facts that michael cohen has stood up in federal court and pleaded guilty to are facts that would tend to indicate that the president of the united states was a co-conspirator in these efforts to make these payments. you'll recall from our prior conversation that d.o.j. policy is to not name people who are not charged in an indictment. that's why we have this term "unnamed unindicted co-conspirators." clearly, though, this refers to the president, and it will be interesting to see if these are conspiracy counts or not. >> chuck rosenberg, this feels like a very dramatic day if what joyce is saying is the case.

if the president of the united states may very well be as of today an unindicted co-conspirator. >> right. and joyce made a very important but subtle point. what matters less are the actual counts to which mr. cohen is pleading guilty. what matters the most are the facts that he is acknowledging as true. it's those facts that are going to drive the investigation forward and that have implications for others including possibly the president of the united states. and so i don't have the documents in front of me. i'm anxious to read it. but it's the facts that matter the most. >> and here's another interesting point, nicolle. here we have a situation where not only is bob mueller going to have to make a determination as to whether a sitting president can be indicted in connection with the evidence that is uncovered in connection to russia and their meddling but now we're going to have prosecutors in the office of the southern district of new york that are going to make their own determination as to whether a sitting president can or should be indicted in connection with these two counts, 7 and 8.

>> and let me ask you this. john edwards was -- he was a candidate but these are similar i think allegations or similar charges to what -- are they, gene? >> yeah, they are. they are similar. the circumstances are different. >> obviously. >> i remember the edwards camp, though, going out of their way to argue, well, this is personal, this is not political -- >> and 2 was 18 months before an election. this is october -- >> but the reference is the last time the president of the united states was talked about as an unindieted co-krntd wconspirato richard nixon during watergate. >> because of the nature of this being in the southern district there's absolutely no way donald trump could fire his way out of this problem. this problem is not going to go away for donald trump. even if he uses excessive power to attempt to fire mueller, to fire rod rosenstein. >> if there's one thing that donald trump is, he's an exceptional con man, and he's exceptionally corrupt. so i'm not going to put it past

him as it relates to his attempt to get out from underneath this. but he is in a world of hurt and he's got a significant problem now. let's also remember this. there are multiple other audio recordings out there, and there's a lot of other evidence that also was seized. so we don't know what evidence exists between communications that michael cohen had with donald trump relating to these counts 7 and 8. we don't know the multitude of evidence. >> that might not involve criminal liability on cohen's part but might on trump's part. >> joyce, let me bring you back in. this idea that the president was always far more concerned about the cohen search and the cohen case and the goings on in sdny than the mueller probe certainly appears to be a justified instinct on the president's part. this case, if the president today is an unindicted co-conspirator, the president might have been right about that. >> it looks like he well could

have been. and i think barb made a really good point. she said we have some thoughts about what alerted the president when the cohen search took place but there could be a whole universe of conduct that we don't know about yet. i think her comments will likely be borne out as this process moves forward. >> barbara, are you still with us? >> yeah. >> barb, could you weigh in on this idea that chuck and joyce have now really raised and really raised the drama of the day, that counts 7 and 8 in the cohen proceeding this afternoon suggests that the president may be a co-conspirator, an unindicted co-conspirator. >> it sounds like michael cohen has pleaded guilty to assisting the president in making these payments. what will matter is what he knowledge the president had. but i think that tape recording we've already heard suggests that he knew exactly what was going on and so it seems there could be potential grounds already, based on what's been

said in open court, to charge the president of the united states with the same campaign finance violations if not conspiracy. so what robert mueller might do with that or the southern district of new york remains to be seen. there is that ongoing debate about whether a sitting president can be charged with a crime or if impeachment is the only remedy for that. but it seems that there is sufficient grounds right now to charge him with that crime. >> so wrapping up the day's extraordinary news in the 4:00 hour today, eight is the magic number. paul manfrafort found guilty of eight of the charges he faced in k35r7b8dia, virginia. and michael cohen in a courthouse in lower manhattan pleading guilty to eight charges including ones you'll hear about all night in the coming days, counts 7 and 8, where he talks about working with the media company and the president of the united states in both to pay hush money to two women with whom he had alleged sexual relations. the beat goes on. my thanks to chuck rosenberg, joyce vance, barbara mcquade,

eugene robinson, michael avenatti, elyse jordan. that does it for us. "mtp daily" starts right now. hi, chuck. >> hi, nicolle. it's a seamless hand-off. >> it's a hot potato. lu take it? >> this could be the most consequential day of the trump presidency yet. it's all happening. good evening. i'm chuck todd here in washington, and welcome to "mtp daily." we begin tonight with breaking news, and it's all crumbling on top of the president's head. mine'll cohen,'s the president's fixer and personal attorney, is an admitted felon who says he admitted campaign violations at the direction of the candidate who cohen technically did not name in court. and paul