that does it for me. i will see you back here tomorrow. i will be right back here on the beat tomorrow night. you can catch me any time on social media. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. >> cohen, manafort and trump. let's play "hardball." good evening, i am chris matthews in washington. as night falls on the east coast tonight. president trump is treading water if a sea of criminality. on every side of him, his former campaign manager, and former lawyer fixer facing multiple counts of felony. his entire circle from nasa security advisor, to several campaign aides, to his own children. faces of anguish. the man in the middle of the

whirlpool issues tweets. noises really, signaling absolute confidence. here is how the president tried to brush off yesterday's news. >> where is the collusion? you know they are still looking for the collusion. where is the collusion. find some collusion. >> with yesterday's bombshell about the plea of course it seems that cohen is going to help mueller find that collusion. here is his personal lawyer lanny davis. >> i can tell you that mr. cohen has knowledge on certain subjects that should be of interest to the special counsel. knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not mr. trump knew ahead of time about the crime and cheered it on. i can tell you it is my observation that what he knows,

what he witnesses would be of interest to the special counsel. that's my opinion, we'll see. >> you say michael cohen knew about hacking during the campaign. >> it is my observation that this topic will be of interest to the special counsel. he has statements that he can can make along those lines, but i can't go beyond that. >> well, sources close to the president told splpolitico, tha tuesday was one of the darkest days of his presidency. even after the president's spent months. one source told the times they could not come up with something to explain away mr. trump's admissions. >> he did nothing wrong. there are no charges against

him. again, i am not going to get into the back and forth details. as the president estatesed on numerous occasions, he did nothing wrong. the president did nothing wrong. and there are no charges against him. he did nothing wrong. there are no charges against him. the president has done nothing wrong. no charges against him. there is no collusion. >> well, rudy giuliani told robert costa of "washington post" that he had spoken to the president about yesterday's events. this is rudy talk. hard to believe. one source close to president trump told john roberts of fox news, remember, the president can't be indicted. seth waxon, barbara mcquade.

thank you, i want to start with the legal questions right now. it seems to me, seth, that the only thing protecting this president from a criminal indictment is the fact that he is president right now and he will be for the rest of his four-year term. who knows what comes later. >> i agree. if this were an average citizen engaging in this kind of conduct, you would think he would be a co-conspirator. many people hold the opinion that he can't be indicted as a sitting president. i tend to fall under that category, but yet to see how that plays out. >> barbara, they say no one is above the law. that is part of our national belief system. in this case, it seems like the president is above the law until he is not president. how do you read it? >> i agree with seth, i think a president cannot be indicted. but he can be impreaeached and

later indicted. >> you agree with brett kavanaugh that the president shouldn't be harbored or bothered by criminal investigation or indictment. he said not even investigation. >> i agree that is doj policy, and i believe mueller is going to follow it. >> what comes next? this guy hasn't quote technically given away everything. but still facing five or so years. i think they could give him a juicier after. what happens if he says more about the russian collusion piece. lanny davis says there is something big there. >> i think implicit in the deal, the prosecutors can bring additional charges that is not precluded and he doesn't want that happening. of course he wants the lightest

sentence possible. >> he wants a year and a half play tennis, weight lifting, white collar crowd to hang around with. >> he has got to testify. i think he is going to do cooperatively. and i don't think he will have to be subpoena. but he is there for the women, for the money, going back years for business operation. and he was there during the campaign and has knowledge about the hacking before, after or during and that is the collusion. by the way, this no collusion thing is wrong. we have june 2016 meeting which is collusion. his son-in-law and his campaign manager. >> they admit they were there to deal with the russians to get dirt. anyway, earlier today, president

trump tweeted michael cohen pled guilty to two counts of campaign violations. during an interview with fox he seemed to confess to campaign violation while denying it. >> did you learn about the payments? >> later on, i knew. you have to understand ainsley, what he did, and they weren't taken out of campaign finance. they came from me and i tweeted about it. i don't know if you know, but i tweeted about the payments. but they didn't come out of campaign. my first question when i heard about it, did they come out of the campaign. because that could be a little dicey. and they didn't come out of the campaign and that's big. but that's -- it's not even a campaign violation. >> barbara, to get to the

president's defense. this is the idea that ultimately, a person who is rich can by all they want in campaign advertising and all they want. that's how it works in our rockefeller system. but he is saying as long as i ultimately paid, if i was the ultimate payee, i'm not guilty of any serious crime. is that right? >> he is wrong. other campaign finance cases divide the world into campaign finance into expenditures and contributions. he is focussing on expenditures. the charges relate to contributions. and there are two charges, one that michael cohen exceeded the limit. >> no, there is no limit on the candidate spending how much they want to spend. >> but it was michael cohen -- >> there is no constitutional limit. any candidate that spends all

they want can do that, right? >> but they have to disclose it -- >> is it is a -- der sall you wn your own campaign, that is their argument. >> you have to disclose who made the payment. and two, you look at motive and intent in a case like this. the intent was not as in the obama situation, a clerical error, this was an intent to mislead by hiding the nature of the payment. this is the kind of case that gets prosecuted. >> robert, i get to defend this -- maybe there is a paperwork problem on the pass

through, but my money and it is legal. it's constitutional. isn't that his argument now? >> that is the argument the challenge is -- >> what is michael cohen's thinking here? >> that he can try to shrug this off legally, politically, as something that is not a campaign violation but face the challenge that cohen admitted in court, in federal court that he did commit a violation, he did break the law. pled guilty. so that is the reality and here is the argument they make. >> if the president's lawyer admits the guilt of a felony, a couple of them, admits it was really a campaign expenditures and wasn't filed properly. >> they are going to mount a credibility war against cohen in the coming weeks. giuliani says he is going to call on cohen to release all the

tapes to try to see if cohen said anything that goes against what he pled guilty to. >> what do you make, how guilty -- is it a paperwork issue or commit a serious felony here. >> the campaign finance law determines criminality at the moment of the contribution. so when michael cohen makes that contribution. you can basically up end all campaign finance law by saying my corporation did it or that was an overlimit. >> don't you have to argue the intention there, that cohen was intending to pay for that money and not get the money from trump. >> he is saying that. he is admitting under oath. >> that it was his payment. >> and procured another payment. we knew from the tapes that he

knew about it contemporaneously or before. why was he having money paid from ami and having his lawyer pay it. why did they set up a dummy comfortable. >> robert what do you make of this? we went from home to work last night, all came home thinking this is a very, very bad day for the president. two things happened. the guy who ran his campaign for many months looks like he is facing hard time and i don't have any particular animus to the guy but facing a large time. this guy is in serious, he is 69 yea 69-years old. he may never get out. and then you have michael cohen who was close in with this president. locked together in the biggest secrets of the world. women, all kinds of payoffs, all personal stuff we have never

heard about. and now, this guy is facing, at least going to allenwood some place like that for a couple of years. what does the president feel for his own situation, does he have sifrpthy for this guy or what. >> the white house today, it is like the eye of the political hurricane. trying to project calm. but surrounded by the hurricane. they put him on the phone with abe. anything but a political war today. but they don't think inside of the white house that this is going to last. giuliani calling from scotland. no evidence to back it up. a lot of confidence but not a lot of evidence that their confidence is going to play out. >> it is not like the compartments are flooding on the

titanic. it is just another day, is that what they look at it? i can get through a day so i can survive. they don't see it adding up. >> it is a different white house than it was a year ago. they are all gone. this is a general kelly, kellyanne conway white house. the president talking to giuliani. different mindset. not as political as charged as it was. >> thank you. jennifer rubin, seth waxman. it is a very short tape. these people are amazing, they are regimental in their defense. rob reiner is coming up to

discuss what the democrats should do. first two congressional supporters have been indicted on corruption charge. and when in doubt, who does president trump blame? obama. about the end of the long, long legacy. this is "hardball" where the action is. as their spokesperson because apparently, i'm highly likable. see, they know it's confusing. i literally have no idea what i'm getting, dennis quaid. that's why they're making it simple, man in cafe. and more affordable. thank you, dennis quaid. you're welcome. that's a prop apple. i'd tell you more, but i only have 30 seconds. so here's a dramatic shot of their tagline so you'll remember it. esurance. it's surprisingly painless.

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like a month, tops. oh boy. wi-fi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. in many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40's. michael cohen has now said in federal court that he committed a crime at the direction of president trump himself. there are now only two things protecting the president from becoming an indicted co-conspirator. the first is his elected four term as president. elected republicans who stand by him for that reason. one-2 punch for the president. the legal set backs that he suffered within minutes of each

other could open fissures among republicans on capitol hill. today many republicans had only tepid condemnations. >> that he is are serious charges, they can't be ignored. >> do you think this opens up the president to be indicted while sitting in office. >> no i don't. i don't think he can be indicted while sitting in office. >> until we know all the facts. >> this is very, very unfortunate. it is very serious. i want to see this go through our judicial system. that is what is going to happen. >> it is not a good day for the president. an accusation that he did conspire for campaign finance laws. >> the only people that are coming out against the president

are those leaving the battlefield. let's listen to them. >> i have been here 11 and a 1/2 years and this is, i don't think i have witnessed anything like i have witnessed over the last year and a 1/2. i think there is going to be other revelations that come up and i think we ought to let the process work. >> this is serious and i am not suggesting any outcome here, but this is serious. >> so far, mitch mcconnell hasn't spoken on the issue. house speaker paul ryan's office spoke only in a statement. we ar wear of mr. cohen's guilty plea to these serious charges, we will need more information at this point. >> what more information. i am joined by democratic

senator. what is your party, is it rig -- under oath and said he directed me to break the campaign laws and secretly spend 130,150,000 -- 130,000 -- and 150,000 to shut up his girlfriend. if this was braobama, it would unseemingly. >> you would have heard a little bit different message from republicans that you played. but those senators who aren't retying did indicate it was a very serious issue. and i get back it the comment that you made in the previous segment with barbara. is this a buckley b vallejo

issue? the president using his own money is markedly different than some of the other things that mule s mueller is investigating. >> i mean, cohen is going down with the ship. he said i did what the president wanted me ton do. i did the payments. and he told me to do it. >> totally agree with you. but i think what to lanny davis's point is the real issue here is what comes next. politically what comes next is going to be more perilous than what happened yesterday with mr. cohen. >> what happens if mr. cohen said we had a lot of conversations with the hacking of the dnc and that information,

how we knew about it ahead of time and the president knew about it ahead of time which sounds like collusion. >> i totally agree with you. and that is why i think having an affair with two women and paying them off maybe not out of your pocket right away but reimbursing your lawyer after he did it, that is one issue. i'm not sure that republicans read that evidence and say we should impeach the president over that. frankly, i'm not sure democrats want to do that either. if they do, it is a double edged sword for them. if we talk about russian interference, russian collusion, that is where i think, if it gets into that territory, then you are going to start seeing a different discussion on capitol hill amongst republicans. >> meanwhile, noting that democrats would demand a floor

bill on a bill retroactive protecting mueller. number two, dic durbin said it is not what democrats said they would do. >> is there a hard bake snr? is there a person that steps up. inconsistent with the laws and rule of law in the united states. >> senator what do you think of your party? what is your party, should it be doing? what should the republicans be doing about what is emerging is a problem of criminality around the president. >> first thing is make sure the mueller investigation can go forward. >> how can you do that with the majority on the other side. >> continue to put pressure on them to bring the bill up. after yesterday's events, they are going to feel that pressure in a different way. all right bipartisan. mitch hasn't want to bring it

un, but i am not sure how long that is going to last. second thing is we have to resume pressure in investigation. i will compliment lindsey graham who has done some good work. but a lot to do. have somebody go out who both sides can trust and give us a quick report on what all of the relations are between russian financial interest and the trump organization. >> isn't that what mueller is doing? >> no, for congressional purposes. we have our own right doing this. >> do you have any doubt that this president would fire everybody in the justice department to save himself and his family. do you think he would let them indict his kids. >> he is not going to be able to. rod rosenstein has spread this

investigation into five different elements. you have to go into the eastern district virginia. >> he has talked about it. talked about getting rid of jeff sessions. he says he can take over the investigation. the president said i can take over this entire investigation if i want to. me. >> he probably couldn't get into the department of justice if he did that. everybody fleeing. that is tweet nonsense >> i have to go back to the senator. thank you for coming on tonight. do you think your republican party which is marching in lock step for 90% right now in the rank-and-file, the people out there. do you think the senator and the members of the house, like ryan and mccarthy, do you think they will ever come out against this

president, no matter what is going on, ever? >> i don't think we have crossed the rubi con. if the russia stuff comes into play, then it is different. the president's press conference with vladimir putin, i have heard more members more bothered by that than previously what the president did. we have been tap dancing and trying to avoid land mines every single day. what we have now avoided is the freedom caucus attempt to impeach rosenstein. if you recall, when we left for recess in august, there was an attempt by the freedom caucus to put on the floor and force an impeachment vote.

i don't think anyone has an appear at this time for that. and certainly, i am more centered than that. but no one at this point in time is going to say this is not a legitimate investigation. >> you said something. i have to ask you about this. i heard people that i respect on the republican party and foreign policy said something like that. do you believe when you think about your colleagues and yourself, when you watch that display by the president where he seemed to take the sides with the russians and their values with the american values right there on the stage, was that closest to impeachable you have seen in this president's behavior. >> i would say that is the most disturbing thing i have ever seen a president has participated in. impeachment is a political process and you need the evidence in front of you and you need to evaluate it. some of the things he intimates

and you saw it right there in the interview with the fox journalist. he repeats himself over and over again and then uses the word but and then says the same thing. it is a verbal gymnastics. he can say two different things in four sentences and you don't know which way he said it. who knows who to believe. that is not how our country works and that i think is something at that a lot of republicans took issue with. >> that is exactly my assessment. and i have heard that from people. i respect at the very top of the republican foreign policy establishment, they consider that meeting and what he said afterwards a disaster. thank you. up next, lawmakers on capitol hill are wrestling with a new conundrum how to handle a new supreme court nominee.

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nuedexta. there is a lot of legislations we have to pass and judges we have to confirm. and i don't think engaging in speculation is the way to go. and i think impeachment talk is not something that we should be

engaging in now. >> saying now is not the time for congress to be discussing potential impeachment against trump. the question cons mes as the president's former lawyer michael cohen. how should democrats handle this news? i am joined by rob reiner. i have been following you for years. you studied the issues, of all of the people you have studied the issues from the outside. best informed. where are the how waard bakers? >> well, they are not there yet. remember back to watergate. it is pretty much parallel to what you are seeing now. little tiny whispers here and there. you have got a corker or a flake, a couple of people

talking but nobody making the move. until the tapes came out, then you saw the flip. a complete flip and it took a long time. took almost two years and you have got to remember that even when nixon presented with the tapes and resigned office, he left office with about a 25%, 26% approval rating. still a chunk of the country that would not abandon him. and i think you will always see that group behind trump. so you are never going to penetrate that. the thing that is going to get the republicans nervous is if the democrats take back the house and take it back in a significant way, i am talking about 40, 50, 60 seats. they are going to get nervous. they have subpoena power, start having hearings. and a lot of these republicans will start to move. and then mueller's report comes

out and dollars to doughnuts, it is going to be the truck loads. you think this is bad what has happened the last couple of days with cohen and manafort? it is child's play compared to what is going to come at trump and then you will see everybody jump ship and my gut instinct that trump won't make it pass -- past his first term. >> showed nixon running the cover up. do you believe the republican party today, the way they have been coached not to believe in objective truth up until this week when rudy giuliani said truth isn't truth. do you think they may beyond

evidentiary arguments. >> they have a little bit right now. they have cohen talking about committing a crime and connecting the president to that crime. they can wishy-washy around it as much as they want. conspiring with an enemy power to influence an election, those are big things and when that evidence starts to come, then you will see them start to change. that 25% will never leave the president. but you need more. you need at least 40% for them to stick around. >> let's talk democrats now. you are about to be chairman, if the democrats win the house, what should you say in the next few months? >> the "i" word has been thrown around. certainly enough to impeach the president, because it is a

political maneuver. but i would say that you have to first -- you shouldn't be talking about that now. first things first. have the hearings. see what mueller comes with. and with all of that, the aggregate of all of that, you can talk about starting impreechi impeachment. >> and then we will have president pence. who knows. looking to capitalize the criminality surrounding trump. now trump himself is implicated in the campaign finance violations. you're watching "hardball." dear foremothers, your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... commanded armies... yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from.

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mount. donald trump campaign chair paul manafort was found guilty yesterday on eight counts of bank and tax fraud. rick gates pled guilty to similar charges. michael cohen pled guilty to campaign violations. first national security advisor, michael flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi. george papadopoulos also pled guilty fbi. his second congressional endors endorser duncan hunter and his wife. joining us now. thank you all. you know, i used to like to compare mueller's investigation to the iceberg, 90% of it is under water.

and it is dangerous as hell. and i compare trump to the titanic. four stacks only three work. how many compartments can flood on the titanic before it goes down. how long can this guy stay afloat? >> well. >> it is my metaphor. do what you want. >> that was quite a list there. >> they weren't metaphoric. >> here we are with a slew of indictments and all sorts of things that people are going to have to deal with the next couple of months during the midterm. how do republicans sell this to their voters. >> are they more concerned about this woman being killed out there in iowa. if anything sticks to this guy in his corral. >> i think you are absolutely

right, that everything is defined by travel politics. how much more water can he take on? the only question that needs to be asked is when do republicans decide that sticking with him is not in his political self-interest. and that is when the tide turns. >> orrin hatch won't even shake him off. why don't they shake him off. they are leaving, a lot of these guys. >> presuming that the republicans leave the house, you are left with a smaller pro trump conference. i don't see them leaving him at all. >> as i mentioned republican duncan hunter of california and his wife were indicted yesterday. accused of spending more than a quarter million dollars in campaign funds on themselves. some of the expenses included more than $14,000 for family

vacation to italy. $6,000 for private school tuition. dysing their family dental bills as a charitable contribution. purchasing shorts at a golf club. you know, it is so chintzy >> the republicans have no one to blame than themselves. they knew something might be coming. and they kept him in. they said he is the nominee. they might lose this seat. >> you can spend campaign money on just about anything but yourself. it is the garden of eden. >> go out to fancy dinners, gifts, just do not spend it on yourself. and he didn't violate the rule, he laughed at it. and ran over it. >> his staff ratted him out. i don't want to say ratted him

out, but exposed of. >> some of the stuff is shameless, but also grotesque. to disguise payment for golf clubs is morally. >> it is a real concern going into the midterm elections. remember 2006. they like to think of that as an election ref election referendum on bush, scooter libby. this party is broken, get them out. and i know there is a lot of concern that that could happen again to the republicans. >> you gave me a bag of different crimes there. scooter was perjury. and the other guy was grabbing the money i guess. is that all corruption? >> i mean, it shows, it is the

swamp and this president was supposed to come in and drain the swamp. >> since you cover the white house, anita, his family is not above this. checking in all of the, show a smile to the president. they are not against that. >> they are not against keeping the businesses and keeping the money coming in. >> jared made 80 million last year working at the white house. >> he are continuing to bring in the money and they can do that. >> why are they free of problems with the working class people that voted for them. >> i was watching the rally and

it was remarkable. t the chants that they had was drain the swamp and lock her up. are they living in a cocoon where they don't read this stuff. or do they say we don't care. they like the guy. >> or they like the president. >> he is the big shot. >> that's weird. we've got to get through that. why does he talk like a regular guy when he is not. roundtable sticking with me, and these three telling me something i don't know. watching "hardball." i'm all about my bed. this mattress is dangerously comfortable. when i get in, i literally say ahh. introducing the leesa mattress. a better

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more reminders today that hackers are still trying to mess with our election. the dnc says it successfully fought off a recent attempt to hack into its database. microsoft took down sites. facebook, google and twitter have removed hundreds of fake accounts linked to russia and iran. we'll be right back. yep, thanks guys. i think he might need some support. yes. start them off right, with the school supplies they need at low prices all summer long. like these for only $2 or less at office depot officemax. mom: okay we need to get all your school supplies today. school... grade... done. done. hit the snooze button and get low prices on school supplies all summer long.

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excuse me, you dropped this. they know it's confusing. i literally have no idea what i'm getting, dennis quaid. that's why they're making it simple, man in cafe. and they know it's expensive. yeah. so they're making it affordable. thank you. you're welcome. that's a prop apple. now, you might not believe any of this since this is a television commercial, but that's why they're being so transparent. anyways. this is the end of the commercial where i walk off into a very dramatic sunset to reveal the new esurance tagline so that you'll remember it. esurance. it's surprisingly painless. back with the "hardball" roundtable. tell me something i don't know. >> people close to president trump looking at this politics if the next couple of months are saying one-third of the people at trump rallies are not republican voters. so they like trump but not

republicans and those are people that he is targeting. >> he wants to win those red state senate seats. >> everyone is wondering why are you tweeting about john dean. it is not so much about john dean as it is an admiration for richa richa richard nixon. >> the whole gang is there. >> the tie is there. >> jeremy? >> the nerves are fraying in the republican party. name any crisis self-inflicted that trump has rougt on himself. a trump supporter, true believer. these are guys who like and support donald trump.

looking the other day. and they are starting to say enough. i can't do any more. >> costello said tonight. it was russia. people are deeply conservative and thank you. when we return, let me finish with the silent down in chapel hill. you are watching "hardball." making cars lighter, it's a good place to start, advanced oils for those hard-working parts. fuels that go further so drivers pump less. improving efficiency is what we do best. energy lives here. you shouldn't be rushed into booking a hotel. with expedia's add-on advantage, booking a flight unlocks discounts on select hotels

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let me finish tonight with what happened on monday night at the university of north carolina. students and others tore down a statue commemorating those who fought for and suffered. there is something wrenching when something like this goes on in a place you love and hold warm memories of as i do of a grad student of chapel hill. i remember the campus rhythms in the '60s. slavery and jim crow was evil. if that is your lost cause, it is time for it to go to be truly gone with the wind. change even though when it is symbolic comes hard. nothing more dangerous than an

attempt to introduce a new order of things. i find joy and also pride in both the courage of those 19-century soldiers who died. and also the courage of the young people who have proven themselves so ready to lead their people forward. that is "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in,". >> did they come out of the campaign, they didn't, they came from me. >> the president is caught in a l lie that impacts his family. >> the desperate defense from the white house as trump's former fixer gets subpoenaed again. >> mr. trump has a significant number of people, and i like to keep myself in that circl