right here in studio for reporters. -- for "andrea mitchell reports." >> thank you, ali. and they weren't taken out of campaign finance. that's a big thing. that's a much bigger thing. did they come out of the campaign. they didn't come out of the campaign. they came from me. >> pardon the interruption. the president keeps lavishing praise on paul manafort, just convicted on tax and bank fraud charges. is the president considering a pardon? >> i have great respect for what he's done in terms of what he's gone through. >> umm, it's, uh, certainly premature to be talking about that. and i think it would be a mistake. and the "i" word. are democrats now eyeing impeachment if they win the house? despite the president's unusual warning today. >> i don't know how you can impeach somebody who has done a

great job. i'll tell what you. if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. and good day, everyone, i'm andrea mitctchell in new york. president trump distancing himself from his former personal attorney michael cohen and cohen's role in paying hush money to stormy daniels and karen mcdougal before the election in an interview on fox news. >> he made the deals. >> did you know about the payments? >> later on i knew. later on. but you have to understand, ainsley, what he did, and they weren't taken out of campaign finance, that's a big thing, that's a much bigger thing. did they come out of the campaign? they didn't come out of the campaign. they came from me. >> why is he doing this? >> because he made a great deal. he was in another business totally unrelated to me. he worked for me you could say more or less part-time. >> this despite the fact that

michael cohen has those tapes. >> so what are we going to do? >> funding -- yes. and it's all the stuff. all the stuff. because here you never know where that company -- >> maybe he gets hit by a -- >> correct. so i'm all over that. i spoke to aaron about it. when it comes time for the financing -- >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay. >> pay in cash. >> no, no, no. >> joining me now, nbc white house correspondent criticize ten will kerr, msnbc contributor barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney. and bloomberg news correspondent sharon petty piece, welcome all. first, kristen, the president in that fox interview seems to be getting himself more into the thick of the whole issue of the payments that were described in court as a crime, a federal crime. >> he is, andrea. he says he knew about the payment afterward. that contradicts what he initial said on air force one, which is that he didn't know about the

payment at all. you have to ask michael cohen about it. so this story continues to shift and evolve. andrea, the president also indicating, by the way, it wouldn't be a crime because this didn't come the campaign coffers. that's not exactly accurate as well, because a lot of legal analysts say, bottom line is, if it were a contribution that went toward the campaign, and if that is deemed to be accurate, then it would be a contribution that wasn't reported, and that's not legal. so there's a lot to unpack here. sarah huckabee sanders digging into that press briefing yesterday, she continued to repeat the phrase "the president has done nothing wrong," she wouldn't be knocked off of that talking point. president trump of course lashing out on twitter, taking aim at michael cohen but taking a very different approach to paul manafort, of course his former campaign chair who was found guilty on eight different felony counts earlier this week. the president only having high praise for him, calling him very

brave when he was asked during that fox news interview if he would pardon manafort, he dodged that question. the president asked just moments ago as well during an event here at the white house, and he ignored shouted questions about that, andrea. >> and shannon, the whole question of the president's relationship with michael cohen, saying i didn't know him that well, i didn't work with him that closely, is that the relationship we know existed between michael cohen who has now pleaded guilty and has a lot to say, apparently, about the president? >> right. this idea that michael cohen was just some guy he asked to pay off some porn star and playboy playmate, just some guy. this is a classic move we're seeing from the president, paul manafort being a guy who only worked for him for a short time, george papadopoulos and carter page being people he didn't even know being involved in his campaign. it's part of his defense. another defense will be calling michael cohen a liar, attacking

his credibility, which is something they're already doing. that is going to create a problem, though, for the president, because one of the key points in his defense at this point is that he did not know about these payments to stormy daniels until after the election. well, i talked to rudy giuliani last night and he is basing that fact off of statements michael cohen made on a tape recording saying that trump only knew about the payments in february or march of 2017. so if it they're going to call michael cohen a liar on all these other issues, they also lose his credibility on the fact of the one thing that could exonerate the president, saying that donald trump didn't know about these during the campaign. >> the president's comments to all of you about flipping, he, barbara, goes at great length, signaling to manafort, one could infer, that talking to the prosecutors would be a bad thing. he even says in this part of the interview with fox that it should be illegal.

let's take a look. >> this whole thing about flipping, they call it. i know all about flipping, for 30, 40 years, i've been watching flippers. it almost ought to be outlawed, it's not fair. if somebody defrauded a bank and he's going to get ten years in jail or 20 years in jail but if you can say something bad about donald trump and you'll go down to two years or three years which is the deal he made, in all fairness to him, most people are going to do that. and i've seen it many times. i've had many friends involved in this stuff. it's called flipping and it almost ought to be illegal. >> it almost ought to be illegal, barbara? what is that telling you as a former prosecutor? >> i think it's an appalling statement. he calls it flipping. i call it telling the truth. when someone has information about criminal liability and they want to plead guilty, if they want to go under oath and tell the truth they get something in chanexchange for t. that's how our entire statement

works. it's not like you can come in and make something up. you have to be able to demonstrate it's truthful through corroborating evidence, testimony of other witnesses or documents. in fact jurors get an instruction that says you should view a cooperator's testimony with some skepticism, ask yourself whether it's consistent with the other evidence in the case. the veracity of a cooperator gets tested in court. it isn't that you come in and make stuff up. the idea is that you come in and tell the truth. so the idea that it should be illegal suggests that people who are witnesses to crimes should not be able to testify truthfully about that in court. and that's appalling. >> there was something else that came out yesterday or the day before, but has now been, you know, looked at a lot more closely. and this, rachel maddow did a large segment on last night. this is the new york state action, legal action against the trump foundation, the charity, and the fact that eric and ivanka and don junior are all

trustees as well as the president of that foundation. and it certainly teams from these filings, barbara, that the charity was using money to help the campaign. that's the allegation, at least, that the charity was being used almost as a slush fund. and there are irs issues involved. do i have this correctly? >> you do. and if those allegations pan out, that is not only a civil case as is currently filed but could also be criminally culpable. not only the tax charges, but there can also be a fraudulent aspect to it. it reminds me of a case we charged in detroit against the former mayor of detroit who had a civic fund. he attracted donations because the civic fund was supposed to be for the good of the people of detroit. yet he spent it on personal expenses, lavish vacations, yoga classes, golf clubs and the like. in that case we used a theory of bank fraud in addition to tax violations. it looks like the same allegations here, a very serious

crime if that can be proved. >> kristen, is the white house focused on this? is there any alarm bells going off? this is the first instance we've. a legal question, civil yet at this stage, against the adult children of donald trump. >> well, i've been talking to officials here, andrea, but that. and all of the other controversies that have erupted this week, frankly. they've been downplaying all of this, not commenting on the record, certainly, about those new revelations about the trump organization. the broader thinking here within the administration is, look, president trump has not erupted yet. yes, he has lashed out on twitter. but you saw him ignore shouted questions. he was pretty disciplined during that campaign event in west virginia. yet some of his allies are bracing for what they've described as a potential meltdown. we've seen this happen in the past. they're concerned about the split screen this week of michael cohen and paul manafort and then these new revelations

that you're talking about. and of course republicans are concerned as well on capitol hill, as they're trying to fight to hold on to the house. so i think you're getting the disparity of responses to all of this, and again, everyone bracing for president trump to become a little bit more unhinged than we've seen. right now, andrea, he seems to be pretty on-message at this point. >> and again, what about paul manafort, shannon? the signals to manafort, all the praise for manafort, what is the risk here, if he at this stage pardons manafort? >> well, i've been talking to a lot of people in the president's inner and outer circle trying to find out what's become of this. this has become the "p" word that nobody wants to talk about. people really clam up, no one wants to say anything on the record, no one wants to say anything on background about conversations around the pardon. they point me to the president's language on manafort and the president's past actions,

strongly signaling at least they feel, if they don't have insider information, that a pardon is likely. on the legal risk here, though, that his legal advisers would raise, is that if you pardon someone during an ongoing investigation, that could look like obstruction of justice or trying to interfere with an ongoing investigation. but at the same time, the president's lawyers are making a case that the president cannot obstruct justice, that he has the presidential power under article ii to pardon whoever he wants at whichever time he pleases, and they also make the case that he could pardon paul manafort tomorrow and it would not be obstruction of justice. >> barbara, do you want to weigh in on that? >> yeah, i think that he is sort of sending messages to paul manafort to stand strong. paul manafort is at a stage right now where he has to make a serious decision about cooperation. this is a perfect moment for paul manafort to decide to cooperate. it's a very critical time. president trump senses that, he's praising him for standing strong and saying all these

favorable things i think in it hopes that paul manafort will continue to stand strong. i don't think he'll pardon him now, i think he'll wait until later when perhaps the dust has settled a little bit. to do it now i think does scream of potential obstruction of justice. if he does it for a corrupt purpose. a pardon is supposed to be given as a sign of mercy and forgiveness that you have atoned for your crimes and gotten on with your life. to do it at this point really would suggest that he is just trying to prevent paul manafort from cooperating against him. >> and of course it would not protect the president against manafort being forced to testify to a grand jury because he could no longer take the fifth amendment against self-incrimination. let me also play for you what one of the jurors, one juror has so far spoken out about what was hanging them up in that manafort jury. and as someone, barbara, who was in the courtroom for so many days, this must be fascinating to watch. take a look. >> how close, i want to know, did this jury come to convicting

paul manafort on all 18 counts? >> by one. there was one holdout. >> what was their reasoning, if they shared it with you? >> reasonable doubt. the person, a female juror, was -- we all tried to convince her to look at the paper trail. we laid it out in front of her. again and again. and she still said that she had a reasonable doubt. and that's the way the jury worked. >> barbara, you've dealt with juries for years and years. this is a classic case. >> yeah, it happens from time to time. you know, some people -- she said that the reason was reasonable doubt. some people get an unrealistic expectation of what reasonable doubt means. the judge will instruct it's not beyond all doubt or shadow of a doubt, but reasonable doubt, that's doubt based on reason and common sense. some have an axe to grind. some don't like the prosecutors. some think the defendant is being railroaded. it's a power that jurors have.

in fact the rules of evidence really prohibit the court from inquiring into what people said in the jury room, because it is really sacrosanct, what they say there. they're entitled to that power and to those candid conversations. and so a jury has that power. it is frustrating. i watched the trial, i thought that if i had been on that jury, i would have very easily found guilt beyond a reasonable doubt of all of the counts. it sounds like 11 of the other jurors did the same. but that's a reality, and it does happen from time to time. >> does it influence the way they prepare for the next trial coming up, assuming that trial proceeds as scheduled? >> yeah, what i used to tell my people is, don't learn the lesson too well. you had an outlier juror here, you convinced 11. i think it will give them some pause. there's also been some criticism about how the jury reacted to rick gates so i think they will think twice about whether they need to call him, if they don't really need to call him, maybe they don't, because it appeared they didn't like him either.

they can certainly learn some lessons from what happened with this jury but i think they shouldn't the learn the lesson too well because this one juror sounds like she was a bit of an outlier. >> thanks, barbara, shannon, and kristen, for starting us off today. coming up, the top democrat on house oversight wanting michael cohen now to testify before his committee. i'll talk to congressman elijah cummings, next. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. ng you should know. there's a serious virus out there that 1 in 30 boomers has, yet most don't even know it. a virus that's been almost forgotten. it's hepatitis c. hep c can hide in the body for years without symptoms. left untreated it can lead to liver damage, even liver cancer. the only way to know if you have hep c is to ask your healthcare provider for the simple blood test. if you have hep c, it can be cured. for us, it's time to get tested. it's the only way to know for sure.

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he was a lawyer for me for -- one of many. they always say "the lawyer" and then they like to add "the fixer." i don't know about fixer, i don't know where that term came from. he didn't do big deals, he did small deals, not somebody that was with me that much. they make it sound like i didn't live without him. i understood michael cohen very well. he -- what turned out, he wasn't a very good lawyer. >> michael cohen, who? my personal lawyer? the president trying to downplay his relationship with the man known in new york circles as his long time fixer, who was seen walking down manhattan streets today, briefly chatting with reporters and a few supporters, telling them he's going for a long walk. maryland congressman elijah cummings joins me now, congressman, great to see you. i understand you want to talk to michael cohen, you want him to testify. >> yes, i do. and i want him to do it sooner

rather than later. andrea, i think that the american people deserve to hear michael cohen. he's just accused the president of the united states of crimes, two, as a matter of fact, and two serious crimes. in fairness to the president and in fairness to the american people, we want to bring him in to our committee so that he can tell us what the president knew, when he knew it. and it sounds, from listening to his lawyer, lanny davis, that he has a lot to talk about. and we have to keep in mind that we are a co-equal branch of government, and we have a duty to look for fraud, waste, and abuse. and in order for us to do our job, we have to have information. and hopefully by mr. cohen coming in, testifying before the american people and the

congress, we'll be able to do that. >> have you talked to trey gowdy or anyone else on the republican side about trying to get him in? >> well, i've read from a spokesperson for trey gowdy, he said that our committee would not do it because we don't investigate criminal activity. well, that's simply not accurate. we do, have done it in the past. and we i'm sure will do it again. but the fact is that the republicans, andrea, have done everything in their power to wall off president trump. and since chairman gowdy has been chairman, he has not issued one single subpoena to the white house. not one. and democrats have requested those subpoenas but he's failed

to do so. it doesn't surprise me, but we'll keep pushing, because that's our job. that's what we're supposed to do. >> democrats have been notably divided as to whether impeachment is politically advantageous or disadvantageous before the midterms to even be raising this question. this is what the president said in part of that interview on fox. >> if the democrats take back power, do you believe they will try to impeach you? >> well, you know, i guess it's something like high crimes and all. i don't know how you can impeach somebody who has done a great job. i'll tell you what, if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. i think everybody would be very poor. >> and your reaction to that? >> well, i would say it shocks the conscience but it doesn't. it's become normal type of language from the president. the fact is that we need to let

mueller, counsel mueller, finish his job. and he's been doing a pretty good job, from what i can see. and he will finish it, i'm sure, fairly soon. and we need to get more information with regard to what has happened here. the president has told us that lies are the truth and that truth are lies. so we cannot depend on his word. and so that's why we have to bring in people, put them under oath, and ask them exactly what happened. and i'm hoping that the republicans will put their country over their party, and their country over their elections, and do the right thing and work with us to simply gather the information that we need to do what we have been sworn to do. >> what about the whole issue of

>> i think that we need to get the information. i'm telling you, i just find it phenomenal that we could have someone like mr. cohen, the personal lawyer for donald trump, no matter what the president says, who will come in and testify under oath in federal court that the president directed him to commit crimes, and then the republicans sit around and act like nothing big happened. this is major stuff. and so, you know, at some point i wonder, as the voters go out, they're going to make their decisions. at some point, if you're not going to do your job, you forfeit your right to do the job. and so i'm just hoping that ryan and mccarthy and mcconnell will step up to the plate and say

something to bring -- and help us bring all of this together so that we can begin to effectively and efficiently address this question. >> and what about all of these hints, praise for paul manafort, do you think he's considering a pardon? and what if he pardons him now before they even get to the second trial? >> i think that -- i do believe that the president is probably trying to send a message to mr. manafort. but i think it would be a major, major problem if he were to pardon mr. manafort right now while an investigation is ongoing. and i think mueller would take a look at that and probably would raise some questions as to whether or not there was obstruction of justice here. >> thank you very much, elijah cummings. thanks for being with us today. coming up, school supplies. education secretary betsy devos' plan to allow schools to arm

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as i've said, i wanted to

stay uninvolved. but when everybody sees what's going on in the justice department, i always put "justice" now with quotes, it's a very, very sad day. jeff sessions recused himself which he shouldn't have done, or he should have told me. even my enemies say that jeff sessions should have told you that he was going to recuse himself and then you wouldn't have put him in. he took the job and then he said, i'm going to recuse myself. i said, what kind of a man is this? and by the way, he was on the campaign. the only reason i gave him the job, because i felt loyalty. >> president trump again lashing out at his own attorney general jeff sessions but not indicating whether he plans to fire sessions or his deputy rod rosenstein. let's get the inside scoop from jonathan capehart, "washington post" opinion writer and jeremy peters, "new york times" politics reporter and an msnbc contributor as well. jeremy, you've been talking to a lot of republicans. we'll play some lindsey graham

from a quick interview on the hill just now, warning him not to fire jeff sessions before the midterms but not necessarily afterwards. >> exactly. it would be political suicide for republicans -- for trump to fire sessions before the midterms. i mean, that's unthinkable. and i even think that president trump is not quite that impulsive that he would do that. but the fact that they are not ruling out this possibility after the midterms just shows you how in his thrall the republican party is. i mean, they are basically captive to donald trump and his whims and risk alienating their core voters if they dare speak out or criticize him too harshly. >> and this is what senator graham had to say, as i said, i think he was caught in the hallways talking about this on capitol hill. >> replacing attorney general

sessions now would create havoc for the body. jeff sessions has done a fine job. he's an honorable man. replacing him before the election to me would be a nonstarter. >> that's a pretty strong signal and we know that lindsey graham was just with the president over the weekend on one of their golf outings. jonathan? >> it would seem to me that the political calculus involved in senator graham's remark is that if jeff sessions were to be fired or replaced by the president, the president would have to nominate someone who would have to go through senate confirmation to become the attorney general. and the political environment is such that that nominee would have a rough, rough go of it. even if the republicans have the majority in the senate, democrats will raise hell over

not only having to probably vote on a nominee who is probably not nearly as qualified as jeff sessions but also the background and the environment in which jeff sessions might be replaced. and that is, as you maria i had in that clip, president trump in that interview, the only reason why sessions would be replaced is that the president fundamentally misunderstands what the attorney general is supposed to be. he believes that jeff sessions is supposed to be his lawyer as if it's his personal lawyer and not someone who is supposed to safeguard the laws of the country. >> the president as also part of that fox interview giving himself a very high grade in terms of how he himself is doing. we want to play that. >> what grade do you give yourself so far? >> so i give myself an a-plus.

i don't think any president has ever done what i've done. >> so jeremy, you're out there talking to a lot of republicans. after all the events of this week, you're sensing that some of them are finally beginning to be very worried about this white house. >> yeah, i would say that's a little bit of grade inflation there, andrea, a-plus is certainly not what i think most republicans would give him, even. what they say publicly is one thing, and as i said, publicly they're fearful of breaking with him. privately it's another matter. and that's where there's real concern. i've spoken with some republicans over the last couple of days who say that they are worried that the kind of voter that they need to turn out in the midterm, this conservative-leaning republican who is skeptical of trump but willing to look the other way on his various improprieties and screw-ups because they like the tax cuts, because they like the

deregulation, because they like the judges, those people are starting to walk away, throw up their hands in disgust and exasperation and say, that's it, i've had it, i cannot support this man or this party any longer. and they will stay home in november. that could cost republicans the house and they know it. and there is a growing concern about that. now, as to the matter of whether or not republicans are going to start speaking out against the president publicly, elected offici officials, no, i don't see that happening. >> not even paul ryan, who is leaving and has really nothing politically to lose by taking a stand now, as chuck todd was saying just the other day. and what about betsy devos, the education secretary, talking about a plan, we're told from the white house this is not an imminent decision, but there is a plan to spend federal money on buying guns, guns to arm teachers for school protection, johnathan. >> i was flabbergasted when i

saw that story. of all the things for the department of education to spend federal money on, all the occasional needs that are in districts big and small across the country, they're looking at using federal money to buy guns? there are myriad questions that come to mind that we don't have nearly enough time for me to enumerate. one is, where is this gun going to be? let's say they actually lose their minds enough to implement this policy. where will those guns be? and how useful will they be if they're not on the person of the teacher? the idea that we are discussing this, andrea, is -- it is absolutely mind-boggling, that we have a cabinet secretary that is actually entertaining this idea. now, as you just said, it's not imminent. but the fact that we are talking about it should concern and probably does concern millions of americans across the country. >> and our colleague and friend

ali velshi also asked fred guttenberg who lost, of course, his daughter in parkland, his view of that in the last hour. i want to play that. >> i think secretary devos is using the murder of my daughter to provide a return on investment for the $30 million that the nra and gun manufacturers paid to get this administration to office. but the money they spent to do this does not necessarily result in good policy. and this would be terrible policy. >> i think we should let fred guttenberg have the last word on this. jonathan and jeremy, thank you both. coming up, the democrats fight back. do the president's legal troubles create an opening for democrats? senator jeff merkley joining us next. stay with us. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer.

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like these for only $2 or less the new chase ink business unlimited card is so simple, i don't even have to think about it. so i think about nitrogen ice cream in supermarkets all over the world. introducing chase ink business unlimited with unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase. homeland security and intelligence officials held a classified briefing on election security for senators yesterday. both republicans and democrats came out questioning whether the administration is still doing enough to stop russia and others from cyber attacks. especially russia. i'm joined by democratic senator jeff merkley, member of the foreign relations committee. thank you for joining us today. >> you're welcome. >> i want to know what your reaction is to the briefing and to what is being done to defend the elections, especially the midterm elections. we hear there are ongoing attacks that came from of course the head of national

intelligence, dan coats. >> you hear about this double-down on the fact that we have so many different threats coming from russia that endanger the security of the elections. it really makes it clear how much we need the elections security act which will provide for security audits, provide paper ballots, provide states with cybersecurity defenses. the hearing was canceled on this bill because the white house weighed in and said they don't want it. i want the white house to say that if russia continues and messes around with our 2018 election, there will be enormous consequences, by the partisipar efforts. >> the publisher of "the national inquirier," long time friend of the president and involved in the payoff to kill

karen mcdougal's story, he has been given immunity by prosecutors. that's breaking news that i wondered if you have any comment on it. >> it's breaking news i wasn't aware of. it shows that the mueller investigation continues to progress, citing the trail and how the campaign violations occurred and really understanding all the details of that, that that work is continuing. it's quite a week, in which you have 16 felony counts, eight through a plea agreement, eight through a trial conviction, against people very close to the president and involving certainly the election. >> and at the same time, democrats still have a very rough challenge in order to try to take back the senate. in republican states where the president is still very successful, he was just in west virginia, you have a democratic incumbent, joe manchin, at risk there. two others in particular are at risk.

democrats have a real long shot at trying to retake the senate, despite this terrible spate of news about the president and his legal difficulties. >> it's very true. statistically democrats would have to have 80% of the races to have a victory in. 80% is unusual. on the other hand, people see the democrats are talking about the issues that affect people every day. the issue of health care, the high cost of premiums, the high cost of drugs, the fact that the administration is wanting to undo the ability of those with preexisting conditions to be able to get health care at the same price. the fundamental issue of infrastructure, of housing shortages. all of these pieces, our candidates are really fighting for the ability of families to thrive in america, something that the administration is completely ignoring. >> and another big issue of course is the epa, changing the regulations, loosening the regulations, giving states more

control. that's one reason, frankly, why west virginia is probably in play, because it's popular there. it's an issue of grave concern to you. >> yes, we've made great progress towards the paris 2030 goals. we're actually getting pretty close to them. what this decision would do is just flatline the carbon emissions in the united states instead of continuing to reduce them. and we see right now in the west and my home state of oregon, the stat state's covered with smoke, certainly problems in montana. the whole west is aflame. the summers are hotter, we have more lightning strikes. we take just that one piece of the change in climate driven by carbon pollution. throw in the agricultural interests in the midwest, throw in those affected in texas and florida by hurricanes. we need to not just act on our own, we need to lead the world

in reducing carbon emissions. >> jeff merkley, thank you as always. coming up, britain's new top diplomat joining me to talk about the era of trump. stay with us. psst! craig and sheila broke up. what, really? craig and shelia broke up!? no, craig!? what happened? i don't know. is she okay? ♪ craig and sheila broke up! craig and sheila!? ♪ as long as office gossip travels fast, you can count on geico saving folks money. craig and sheila broke up! what!? fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.

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and this just in from san diego. congressman duncan hunter encountering protesters as he walks into a federal court on that indictment that alleges he and his wife illegally used his campaign account for personal expenses. he finished first in the june primary and was the second congressman to endorse trump for president and it would be very hard to get him off the ballot. meanwhile, britain's new foreign secretary jeremy hunt calling for more punishment against russia for using illegal chemical weapons including a banned nerve a gent they used to attack a retired spy and his daughter on british soil. earlier today, i sat down with britain's top diplomat and talked about russia's response and pushback. what is your message to vladimir putin? >> well, the message is if you

use chemical weapons, the price you will have to pay is too high. in the case of chemical weapons, we have not been consistent over recent decades. so people have been testing us. and i think we're now starting to see some credibility coming back into our red lines on the use of chemical weapons. the very strong response from the united states and the uk and our allies to the use of it in salisbury. and people are clear this is unacceptable behavior. must stand together. >> at the same time, the president, donald trump, is defending his a proech in helsinki in particular, his approach to vladimir putin. now, we do the sanctions, but he keeps praising putin. he keeping saying there's no real evidence russia was attacking our elections. so doesn't putin take the message that he can get away with anything? >> well, that's not how i

interpret the president's policy. i think he's basically doing the speak softly, carry a big stick approach. he has been prepared to be very tough on russia, expelling 60 diplomats. that's more than any other country. introducing sanctions as he's now announced. what he's also saying russia is a big country, it's an important country, it's a nuclear power and he need to have a dialogue. he needs to have a relationship with putin. that's the way he's playing it. >> even the republican chairman of the foreign relations committee says that russia is getting the message that they can get away with anything. that they can use chemical weapons in syria. that they don't seem to be backing off no matter what you say and what sanctions are imposed upon them. >> well, i think the problem is that we have been backing off, doing things and being consistent in our approach. but now we see that also one of these consequences is the russians going one step further

and actually using banned chemical weapons on the soil of a nato country as happened to britain and salisbury. this is a time when it's very, very important that we all stick together. the soviet union knew that nato would stand together. and we need to reinvigorate that sense of purpose behindate liance if we're going to keep the world safe. >> at a political rally the other night, the president again threatened to get out of nato if people don't pay up. he doesn't seem to understand that people don't really owe money to nato. these are forward payments. and his threats to get out of nato, his arguments when he goes to brussels, doesn't that undermine the defense alliance and send the wrong signal to russia? >> well, this president is a negotiator. and he uses strong colorful language in a way that no previous president has done. >> is it hard for you all to deal with him? he goes to czechers and insults the prime minister in the night

before and has to apologize. >> i think he's going to make sure the overall nato budget is much higher. i think the interesting thing about his approach is he arrived in helsinki having gotten much, much more commitments to higher spending by nato countries. and so he was talking to putin from a position of strength and i think that's what he's seeking to do. >> what about his threats and his tariffs? the trade war against europe, against china, against elsewhere? isn't that unsettling markets around the world? >> well, we can be friends with the united states but also disagree with them, disagree with the administration, and this is an area we disagree with. we don't agree with the steel and aluminum tariffs that are hurting british companies and we are an ally of the united states, so that's an area of difference. >> how worrying is it to our closest ally, the special relationship, to have an american president under so much fire, the political

entanglements and now these legal issues with the former chairman of his campaign convicted with his former personal lawyer implicating him in committing of a felony? u.s. courts? there's now talk of impeachment. >> what i say to america's friends across the world is when you look at these things happening, when you look at the meet what coverage, this is because we are democracies. we hold our politicians to account. and in the end, the people decide in elections. and this is something that isn't the case all over the world. and so the fact that we have these open debates, you know, it's very uncomfortable for the people in charge. it's uncomfortable for us in britain when we get this level of scrutiny. but this is what happened in a free country. >> do you think it weakens our posture in the world for america to have this kind of really toxic political debate, all these legal ramifications? unprecedented. >> well, i think what you have

is a president who is a fighter who is very strong. but you have all the things that come with a free and open democracy and a free and lively press. and i think in other countries people look at this and maybe the first reaction is to take sides in the debate but when they think about it more what they think is actually this is a country which is free. and where people are free to speak up with their views, positive or negative about the president. that's what we have in the united kingdom. they don't have that everywhere. >> the foreign secretary, jeremy hunt. secretary of state mike pompeo has a nounnounced he's g to north korea next week, trying to ooirn iron out the problems in those nuclear talks.

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and we're out of time. here's craig melvin. >> always good to have you in new york city. >> thank you. >> always good to see you. good afternoon to you as well. craig melvin at msnbc headquarters in new york. tabloid publisher david pecker has been granted immunity. and just moments ago, another piece of breaking news, our ken del delanian talked t