and, of course, trump's former fixer. manmade messy things like chatty mistresses go away. pleaded guilty to finance laws and included the president in his crimes. the biggest blow when we learned a third person familiar with his secrets is cooperating with the feds. allen weisselberg. long time cfo of trump organization was granted immunity for cooperation in the cohn case. could be one of many sgrant threats facing not just trump's presidency, but his business. trump once said would be a red line that mueller shouldn't cross. joining me now is senior vice president for social justice at the news school. paul butler. editor of above the law and dean series xm host of the economist.

let's talk about all of these threats facing the president. i'm going to start with tony schwartz who tweeted on friday, the other shoe has dropped. the smoking gun equivalent to nixon's tapes. allen weisselberg knows everything. trump will resign as i've always assumed. only a matter of time now. your thoughts. this is catastrophic as tony schwartz. >> trump is in big trouble. we could talk about tractor-trailertorial strategy or mother whip. my mother said you're going to find out who your real friends are when you're in trouble. turns out the president doesn't have real friends. he's got staffers, employees, when push comes to shove, they stand up and flip. >> he doesn't even have a dog. >> he has eric. >> elie would think, okay. i was going to go this way. now i'm going to go this way. you wrote a piece going after

family. you mentioned eric on your blog you said allen weisselberg immunity deal shows prosecutors going after the family, not the business. >> you don't need allen weisselberg to get cohn. cohn is a floppish clown and going down anyway. you needle weisselberg if you're going after his family. i think that's what we're seeing. that's the next pressure point for trump. trump as a father is more like your mama's creepy boyfriend than he is your real daddy. we don't know he has prantal instincts, but he seems to think he's above the law.arantal instincts, but he seems to think he's above the law. >> the perception was that michael flynn in part makes this deal. his son maybe was protected by him doing that. it doesn't always work that way. we have a congressman throwing

his wife like all the way under the bus as he goes down. that is sort of the redline that donald trump set up before. don't go after my businesses. theoretically maybe that extends to his children that run his businesses. >> he did say going after the family would cross the line for the mueller investigation. he has said that. the issue goes back to what are his legal vulnerabilities. mueller has been moving at the speed of light. the speed with which he has gotten the number of plea deals and now convictions is really astounding for the legal process. it is very, very difficult whether we look at new york state ag which is looking into the trump foundation. that also very important. could directly implicate the kids. trump does not have pardon power there. it takes time so in the context

of a political cycle, the question is, do you get enough explicit evidence in addition to what you've gotten from michael cohen because right now it's a cohen allegation with some evidence behind it as we know from the tape, which i think is quite damming for trump, but politically he has survived having a literally having a university where he had to settle a $25 million lawsuit for fraud, defrauding students. we already knew we had the tape, the access hollywood tape where he literally admitted to assault sexual assault of women. these are crimes. it's not like he hasn't survived politically. a lot of allegations that have been potentially criminal and we are in a process where i absolutely belief we're going to see a lot more criminal allegations and evidence of crime. i think the issue is the political cycle with him which it happens and the disagree to

which the republicans, this is where we're in uncharted territory. the type of allegations we have about the president should have already sunk him politically. in any normal spear of politics in this country, the party of the president would say you got to go. and that's not happening. >> you're on the radio every day. you're talking to people. you get trump people who call in. donald trump is exposed if anything is the disagree to which the republican party is not really a policy driven entity from the base up. it is a personality cult around donald trump and literally there's nothing he could do to lose that personality cult. >> that's true. on the other side. trump presence is going to make an amazing crime mini series on netflix. got that going for us. the reality they call when trump supporters call and progressive channel will mimic what they hear on fox news. what about hillary's e-mail? there's nothing, but let's not lose site of one thing u. they

are getting delivered something they want. they're getting cakavanaugh perhaps. gorsuch. want to turn the bible to american law. not all of them, some of them. it's not like cult trump because he's loud and rude. he's delivering on the promises they feel passionate about. >> guess who is delivering a lot of it, jeff sessions. >> and he's complaining about them. he doesn't care about agenda. and conservatives. all he cares about is keeping himself out of prison or not being impeached because again, since sessions is the most effective cabinet member in terms of carrying out the agenda. you would think he would be loving him. he's trying to get him to go away. that's obstruction at justice. >> and got lindsey graham to say

get rid of him. to what've you want. >> and dwragrassley a long time friend. >> everybody over the side. >> let's talk about the legal jeopardy potentially he could be in. set aside the fact nothing politically going to happen to him. his base doesn't care what he does. republican party my favorite tweet was the idea of paul ryan practici practicing shrugging in front of a mirror. legally, what could happen to him. >> he's using the power of presidency as a cloaking device for his crimes. if you look at statute of limitati limitations, looking at it, campaign finance fraud is violations is six years, tax fraud is -- five years. tax fraud is six years. that takes us well into 2021. if anybody remembering when obama was coming up, people were saying to obama you have to prosecute bush and cane.

obama, oh, we're not going to talk about the past. i don't think that's going work in 2020. you have to say you're going to prosecute trump. and if he's out of office in 2021. all of these crimes, there's a reason he hasn't been charged yet. statute of limitations tolls based on when the crime started which as far as we can tell is 2016, 2017 is going to be there for a chargeable offense in 2021 when he no longer has the cloaking device around him. if we're not going to have a political solution because mitch mcconnell pretends he can't see. >> a lot of these alleged crimes took place in the state of new york, every state official wants to be president of the united states. where the smart play is i'll prosecute him. >> you read my mind. >> i'm sorry. >> we did that thing. yes, i think that's true on a federal level. the point about the new york

state ag and new york district attorney, number one, those are we have an election right now for new york state ag. we already have interim who has gone after civilly after the trump foundation. as well as the tax department now looking into the tax fraud, potential tax fraud crimes by the trump foundation. and the ag. the district attorney. as i said, the cloak of the presidency which is essentially the department of justice memory du -- memorandum which says which legal scholars debate whether the president can be. >> says who. >> says rod rosenstein. it's his call. i'm going to put on my federal prosecutor hat and make a claim. federal prosecutors can be cold-blooded.

that i ha they will go after your family. what's the end game of the new york federal investigation, mueller referred the investigation to the southern district for michael cohen. well e on tuesday michael cohen became a convicted felon eight times over, they're still trying to use other people. what are they going on? >> to what end? this cannot all be about campaign finance violations being the end game. approving donald trump violated campaign finance laws. there has to be a bigger end game. >> it's called kushner, it's called ivanka. that will give a prosecutor leverage over the president, a deal could be made. don't resign. don't run for re-election. we'll leave the kids alone. >> i wrote for the daily beast this week the idea of potentially charging donald trump and the exception the doj regulations extraordinary circumstances. this is a crime about how the man got elected to office. this is election fraud.

even attorney-client privilege there's a fraud exception. even the doj say you cannot indict a sitting president. extraordinary circumstances have to be present. in this case, there are. this the only way he's in process. to have him sit in office two years or six years, the cloud of criminality of how he got to the office is thethere. >> while he puts on supreme court justice. >> if in fact the significance of the cohen flip is that he's admitting he participant instead a dream that was specifically about getting trump elected, about preventing him not being elected. doesn't donald trump get right out -- you can't say he can't be prosecuted for a crime that put him in office. >> the constitution says i don't care. i care. we care. constitutionally speaking and i

said this before, indictment doesn't get you where you want to go. you can indict him, convict him. he can go to jail and still be president. >> he would be president from prison. >> the only way is the impeachment clause or 25th amendment. trump can aport supreme court justices from the jail. >> because the forefathers, but the people. >> i don't think they were anybody at this table's forefathers. >> again, i don't think they've thought that congress would be so partisan that they would allow a member of their own party who was a thug to remain in office. >> if you had george washington, he would be like who is this mitch mcconnell guy. >> the senate originally was not elected by the people. chosen by the state representatives. there was idea a senate would be this hype every paer partisan.

they would expect them to see the evidence. the trial goes as we know in the senate. >> and not only that, when they were appointed, there were no political consequences. people like mitch mcconnell go if i go home to kentucky, having voted to convict a republican president who is giving the base, white christian conservatives everything they want. that's the end of political career. that wasn't present. >> one point about the senate. chris haze has been making the point really importantly if you look at the spread of population the senate doesn't represent the population. >> 30% of country. >> we have a senate that is politically representing. that is political. >> it's the ultimate minority

rule. do we effectively have a president who is above the law. >> so this is what i just want to make sure we don't forget one important principal because i actually believe institutionally the justice department is wrong in term of memorandum. i want to be on record of saying that. at the same time it is important to recognize we have seen a politicization of law enforcement at times and part of why that memorandum exists is we don't want a system in which the department of justice and fbi essentially ends up becoming a shadowed government. that's the important thing. the important thing is we have so much evidence just what's in the public's fear of donald trump saying while i'm sworn to uphold the laws and the constitution of the land, i am simply not going to do it and take the position that i don't have to do it. i am going to take the position i can take over the mueller

investigation. he said that publically. i'm going to take the position that people should be legally barred of cooperating with evidence of protecting a crime. i'm going to take the position that the u.s. attorney general who is supposed to be the highest lawyer for the land, not the white house, should be lal on loyal only to me. even as i'm carry can go out the policy admission of the administration and only line session is drawing because he's made institutional arguments in court on muslim ban for example. the only line i won't just go out there and violate the law. >> our friend michael has a book if you can keep it referring to republican if you can keep it. i think we are at the debate of a criminal. >> the doj talks about rational too much of a distraction. had a five week trial, potentially it's a spectacle.

chief wore a robe with gold on it. he made himself based in. >> i'm going to give you last word. we're going to go. does donald trump survive his full term. >> yes, i think he wins in 2020. >> no. >> i think our country is in for -- is in a very bad situation. >> on that frightening note. >> unless you like donald trump in which case it's a glorious note. join us later in the show. thank you very much. next the safe, the safe holding at the national inquirer at the national quirer is holding a safe they have r. i forgot how to do this. has been opened. ♪ as moms, we send our kids out into the world, full of hope. and we don't want something like meningitis b getting in their way. meningococcal group b disease, or meningitis b, is real. bexsero is a vaccine to help prevent meningitis b in 10-25 year olds.

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>> did you direct him to make in payment. >> he made the deal. he pled to two counts. which nobody understands. i watched a number of shows. sometimes you get good information by watching good shows. those two aren't even a crime. they weren't campaign finance. >> did you know about the payments. >> later on, i knew. later on. you have to understand, what he did and they weren't taken out of campaign finance. that's a big thing. that's a much bigger thing. did they come out of the campaign. they didn't come out of the campaign. they came from me. >> the man who once said he would take a bullet for donald

trump might have just put a bullet. implicated trump in illegal scheme to silence two women who had affairs with him. cohen may get backup from david pecker. who has been granted immunity in connection to the cohen case. soer associated press reports inquirer kept a safe. here to discuss stormy daniels attorney michael. good to see you. >> good morning. >> let's first talk about michael cohen pleading out. what is the significance of him pleading out to the case you are activelily involved in. >> very significant joy for two fundamental reasons. first of all, michael cohen pleading out in criminal case will allow the stay of civil case to be lifted and we will be

permitted to perceive and seek the deposition of michael cohen which i'm 100% confident will be granted as well as a deposition of donald trump. during that deposition we're going to have an opportunity to ask donald trump some very difficult questions under oath about what he knew, when he knew it, what he did about it. and all of his conduct, criminal conduct potentially relating to the coverup. >> is the reason you believe that you'll be able to depose the president because now michael cohen is no longer at risk of criminal prosecution. he's already pleaded it out. >> that's correct. that investigation has now generally concluded to michael cohen which was the only reason they provided to the court for the court to implement the stuff. >> if you are able to depose donald trump and/or michael cohen, would you be willing to make the depositions public. >> absolutely. we're going to fight vehemently to insist that the depositions

are public immediately. not just the transcript, but we're going to ask for videotaped depositions of both individuals. this is a matter of public service. the american public knows exactly or should know exactly what happened here. they deserve to know the truth. they deserve to know what evidence there is. they deserve to know what the president did in connection with this. and they deserve to know it all. >> now, let me just unpack just a second in your what yview wha the significance of it is, now we have david pecker national n inquirer boss. if you're the average person out there. why should you care whether or not donald trump paid off stormy daniels, your client, and karen mcdougal sgll h. >> you can got have individuals

running for the highest office in the land that cover up evidence and lie about it to american public and engage in criminal conduct associated with lying about it and the covering up the payments to individual. this is about the coverup. it's about the stakes at issue in connection with running for the presidency and how important that is. it's about the bounds that this individual, donald trump, together with all of the other continent around him went to in order to deceive the american public. i don't care if you're on the right or left or center or where you line up politically. we cannot have a system in which people that are seeking the highest office in the land are lying to the american public. we just can't stand for it. >> and let me put up a timeline of when the nondisclosure agreements were taking place.

the national enquirer company. in october you start to get sort of cascade of negative stories. access hollywood comes out october 7. exact same time the obama administration was officially announcing russia was hacking into our election. you have michael cohen creating company october 17 to pay off your client, stormy daniels. wires the money october 27. election is a little more than a week later. election day is november 8. wall street journal reports on the payment four days before that. do you believe that the payoff to these women was an attempt to flip the election and do you believe as a result of donald trump and michael cohen making those payments that they made his election illegitimate. >> well, there's no question that these payments were made in an attempt to influence the election. i think michael cohen is s has already pled to that. look at timing of payments in

comparison with when the conduct occurred years prior. there can be be no legitimate argument these payments were made the for any reason other than attempting to install donald trump in the white house. so that's number one. and number two, i absolutely believe that this conduct makes donald trump's election in the white house illegitimate. donald trump and others around him believe that he is above the law. that he cannot be held accountable. well, i have a message for donald trump this morning. we are going to work morning, noon and night to make sure that he is held accountable. we are going to acquire the evidence and the facts. we're going to present that to the american public. they're going be the jury, joy, that will ultimately decide what happens to donald trump. and here's another thing that i want to add this morning. i am highly confident that in the coming weeks we are going to negotiate a resolution with michael cohen relating to the civil litigation, the multiple

cases that we have with him. and i'm highly confident that ultimately he's going to cooperate with me in connection with our attempts to get to the truth and bring donald trump to justice. >> let me ask you to just put on your -- if you had to guess what's in the vault. >> plenty of damaging information. i think it is the a treasure-trove of documents and evidence relatinging to extent that michael cohen and donald trump went to cover up facts, to hide facts from the american people. i think it's going to blow this thing wide open. >> you have hinted before there are other women donald trump paid off during the course of that election. do you think it's mostly about paying women off. >> there's no question. >> for a lot of people it's hard to believe all of this activity around michael cohen is about the women with all due respect.

do you think at the end of the day, the investigations into michael cohen are just about payoff to women or do you think this investigation into him goes into trump tower moscow, goes into ukraine peace deal that he proffered. >> goes quite frankly into russia. >> i think it's broad reaching. they did not grant the immunity process. i grant the immunity they did. solely to get to issues about a few pays. this is far reaching and i think any tie you pull on a string you don't know where it's going to end. this is going to end in is disaster for donald trump. as it should. his criminal enterprise and criminal conduct is going to catch up to him. i can promise you that. >> you think the weisselberg plea deal is the most significant development so far. >> certainly one of the topmost significant. michael cohen's plea agreement and also what i just stated

which i think he's highly likely to cooperate with us in coming weeks into negotiate a resolution to work withtous bring the facts and evidence to american people and if that happens, donald trump better buckle up. >> thank you very much. thank you for being here. coming up, michael cohen's ties to russia. that is next. the day after chemo shouldn't mean going back to

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one of the reasons i have respect for manafort. he went through the trial. people make up stories. the whole thing about flipping they call it. i know all about flipping for 30-40 years been watching flippers. everything is wonderful and then they get ten years in jail and flip on whoever the next highest one is or as high as you can go. it almost ought to be outlawed. it's not fair. >> evidence that donald trump is feeling the strain of many, many legal problems appearing to circle around him. what is he afraid of. what more information could michael cohen have on trump? you've got one clue earlier this week when the state subpoenaed cohn as evidence into the trump foundation. cohn responded personally asking how he could help.

earlier this week his attorney planny davis dangled this carrot with rachel maddow. snot just about the obvious possibility of conspiracy to collude and corrupt the american democracy system in 2016 election. which the trump tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not mr. trump knew ahead of time. >> joining me now, my professor and law school paul butler, informer. welcome back to the show. i have to play the lanny davis scene to backtrack about what trump knew or what he knows trump knew about the trump tower

meeting. play that with anderson cooper. >> so michael cohen does not have information that president trump knew about the trump tower meeting with the russians beforehand or -- >> no, did not. >> if cohen doesn't have that. can't nail the fact trump knew in advance of the meeting, what could he have. >> in my grand jury testimony, michael could have been the biggest suggest that i spoke about. they were very interested in the fact of what michael's role was going to be with the campaign. interested instead high he conducted business at trump, whether or not his private businesses were conducted to trump and why he did not get a job in the white house. by the way, reason he didn't get a job is jared kushner. >> did you perceive that the prosecutors were more interested in the trump organization than

they were, let's say, in payoffs to women? >> they were interested in everything i get i did not first i don't know anything about the president's affairs. so i don't know. with that said, as you have said before on this network, they have his taxes already. special counsel, and they've gone through all his books i'm sure because we already know it's been reported that trump. >> this thought from our legal here. michael cohen can offer one of three things. one is did donald trump try to flip the election by paying women off to keep a lot of women silent. we've seen allegations through the cohen plea. did michael cohen act as conduit between donald trump and russia, things like the trump tower, moscow, things like that. enlisted business dealings, money laundering and that kind

of three. and trump tower. >> i think it's number two. the steel dossier keeps getting corroborated by mueller and reporters. there were two go betweens the trump campaign and russia. one was manafort and when manafort resigned from the campaign, michael cohen took it over. we know manafort is now just chilling waiting to get through the second trial get his pardon from trump. so cohen is the man if you need the dossier. >> one thing that lanny davis did say this week is the steel dossier in terms of michael cohen's travel was inaccurate. >> i think this is the distinction we have to make about what assertions people make on television and what the evidence shows. going to be important. we don't know. we do know lanny davis is asserting. we do know that michael cohen back to paul's point had e-mail

exchanges about his ability to help get our guy elected in terms of his relationship also to russian government. it's not that there isn't evidence that suggests that michael cohen was part of those conversations. just to be clear, whenever a witness is coming before a grand jury like you, sam, or anyone else, it doesn't mean we know all of the questions that grand juries are examining because there are many, many witnesses and many, many different angles being examined by different witnesses, there's a lot we don't know. i would just add that the reality is that the mueller investigation has a very broad mandate from rod rosenstein and the question of what -- where the evidence takes them means it's also very difficult to know the degree to which it does get into financial transactions of donald trump himself p we and w know from what has been released

because of the relationship of executive one and executive two, ceo and trump organization. were having direct conversations with michael cohen about how money was getting spent. >> and to follow up and confirm your point, there are things they ask in the grand jury, once again. these are facts as opposed to my voluntary where they wanted color. and i still don't understand wh >> the voluntary all they asked me about the trump children was do i still communicate and answer was no. >> you perceive having known him a long time. if they ultimately went after ivanka or jared kushner he would take some action. >> he will never resign the presidency. the same reason he begged to drop out of the race at the access hollywood.

>> he won't do it. >> first of all, from a political point of view, this could help him from the point of view of he could get his base out, let's say. think he could say, look, bill clinton got through it. he could say, well, i'm being persecuted here because of winning an le corbusiewin winning an election. he could play it that way. >> even if don junior was going to jail. >> in terms of pardons, perhaps he would pardon. perhaps he would. that's a prediction i can't make. what hi can tell you knowing him politically, we've been through this early on. he made his announcement. his business got hurt very badly. i was there. he lost a lot of business, but it helped us politically. >> at the end of the day, here's the question. who has the next most jeopardy. if we're now talking about the trump businesses and weisselberg is talking.

and tim has been sitting in a chair saying that would be the biggest problem. he knows everything. who is in the most jeopardy. sounds like don junior. is that what you think? >> wieseisselberg is money man. he has to answer any question a federal prosecutor asks him. means the southern district is going up. well, there's not a lot up from weisselberg. you really talking about three people. don junior, jared kushner, or ivanka. >> if they're into the organization, who is next? do we see rona the assistant being called in. >> she's already given an interview. i know for a fact she's given an interview to mueller's team in new york. >> does donald trump in your view, do you know he fears his own state almost more than the federal government? he can't pardon his way out of state prosecution.

if they go after his businesses and foundation, they could sue him to bankruptcy. >> of the foundation, i don't think he's that scared. >> how about the collapse of his business, if his businesses become the focus on state prosecutor. >> he's going to be mad at me for saying this, this is somebody i don't think his businesses haves prospered since he's been president. you look at property skies and reports about one only popular because the saudis came in and rented hotels. i do not assume trump soho is well with business. the short answer is i don't know and i don't have the expertise to answer that. >> always been the perception of donald trump pretends to be richer than he is. in the end of the day, without foreign businesses wanting to buy their way into his favor, what's there. >> remember the state department website that actually started advertising. as long as he's not president. >> what's the point.

>> if he was a great businessman, he would have a lot more money than he does. >> put yourself in the mind of mueller. sit an investigation that goes in a lot of different directions. which is the most important direction? >> that's easy. because the political conversation we were having earlier. he really is going after the degree to which there was a conspiracy to try to win this election. by the way, he doesn't have to prove that actually impacted the outcome of the election. >> just that they tried. >> just that they tried. this is why the trump tower meeting with don junior and jared kushner is so important. this is why whether or not donald trump knew of and then said yes, go ahead and have that meeting. you yourself sam said in the spring that you believed that don junior would have had that conversation with donald trump based on the way they usually work together. >> yes. >> about whether or not that meeting would happen. all of that goes to a conspiracy to defraud the united states by

working with the foreign power. >> and those 19 russian who is were indicted. mueller says they activelily conspired not just in some vague way to divert democracy, but to put donald trump in the white house. >> again, it become as legitimacy question. no matter how you look at it. >> which is why midterms are impeachment referendum. >> we're out of time. thank you all for bringing that back. in our next hour, trump unhinged. omarosa will be here to talk about it. so are some of her fellow apprentice cast members. you do not want to miss it. ♪ ♪ [ screams ] ♪ [ laughs ] ♪ whoa, whoa, whoa. your one item would be the name your price tool? it helps people save on car insurance.

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. how about when michael cohen, in all fairness to him, they raid his office at 6:00 in the morning? how about with manafort, they raid his home at like 5:00 in the morning, i think on a weekend, and his wife is in bed and they go in with guns? this isn't al capone. >> donald trump's reference to a notorious mobster is ironic considering he's been sounding like a true mob boss this week. beyond the rhetoric is there a real life tie between the trump world and the underworld?

joining me is author of "house of trump/house of putin." i've been dying to talk to you about this book. you say donald trump was no virgin when it came to organized crime. in fact, the trump family had a taste for it dating back three generations. explain. >> right. well, his grandfather had a brothel during the 49er gold rush. his father was a real estate developer in queens and had many ties to the russian mafia. but donald trump, all of them, i believe, and i found -- he's always said he had no contacts with russia. i found at least 59 over 35 years and many, many of them were tied to the russian mafia. >> you can't say about the russian mafia without talking about the russian government. they're tied together. >> i interviewed the head of counterintelligence for kgb and he said mafia? it's part of the kgb. they share intelligence with us. i think it's very deeply disturbing when you have russian

mobsters laundering money through trump-branded properties, living in trump-branded properties and they're living in the home of the president of the united states. >> let's unpack that very learly. what is -- you're saying what donald trump's connection to the russian mafia is they used his properties as ways to launder money from the post-soviet era, to essentially take money out of russia and put it into cash buying condos? >> right. the demise of the soviet union there were enormous amounts of flight capital. it is a mafia state. that goes all the way to the stop of vladimir putin. he is the top. they were essentially seizing all natural resources of russia and pumping it out and they needed to launder that money. there's no better way to launder vast sums of money than real estate. and it would be great to find a great real estate mogul with thousands of condos. trump loves doing business with gangsters because they top dollar because he's laundering

their money. >> when donald trump ran for president, did he run openly knowing -- forget collusion. seems like he's been cluding with russia his entire business career. was he doing this openly, these are my partners, they're going to help me get elected and we'll keep doing business when i'm in the white house? >> no. he was hiding everything and he's been lying about everything all along. you know, but almost everyone you can find in trump's circle, from his lawyers like michael cohen, have long ties to the russian mafia. michael cohen and his family owned a social club in brooklyn that was headquarters for the russian mafia. that goes back to when michael cohen was close to felix sader, in trump tower to partner with donald trump and it, too, had ties to russian mafia. >> now that robert mueller is doing a forensic colonoscopy of everything trump has done businesswise, is the mueller going to be an investigation of the russian mafia and tying the

president of the united states to the russian mob? >> in my book it's really a road map to that kind of material that i think mueller is going over and that will unfold over time as -- >> do you think mueller already knows this? >> he absolutely has to know it. he went to budapest when he was fbi director and talked about it in a speech there. there's no question a lot of my material came from fbi files. >> wow. we already are in a mafia investigation. it gets more and more fascinating. the book is "house of trump/house of putin." craig unger, thank you for being here. a pleasure to talk to you. oyee . [music playing] (vo) progress is in the pursuit. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select models during summer

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i have people coming to me, some people in congress, sir, can you get this deal done immediate? i said, it doesn't work that way. i can't go that fast. we have to take time. it has to gestate, right? it's like when you're cooking a chicken. turkey for thanksgiving. my mother would say, oh, eight hours. i said, eight hours? show made the greatest turkey i've ever had. it takes time. >> welcome back to "am joy." the word is definitely not gestate. at the end of a very bad week for donald trump, one can't help but ask is he unraveling? my next guest who has known the president for 15 years, he says when watching the president in the white house, his mental

decline cannot be declined. joining us is omarosa, former white house aide, and author of "unhinged," currently at number one on the "new york times" best sellers list. good morning. >>. good morning. welcome back from vacation. >> yes. a lot happened while i was gone. i was like, i'm missing all this. you just saw that clip of donald trump speaking at an event where he's talking about gestating turkeys. when you see that, do you still see the person you met 15 years ago, or as you have written in the book, and i read in a fast 24 hours, do you see a man in mental decline? >> i see a person who conned his way into the white house and is trying to use his limited intellect to try to fool people. but when you see him give speeches like that, then you know firsthand why i titled this book "unhinged" because he truly is unraveling. he's showing signs of decline,

instability, impulsivity and he has a struggle with the truth as with he saw so very clearly this week, joy. >> you talk in the book about him being isolated, about him being lonely in the white house. is you talk about him having about a ninth grade reading level. you go into details about the him that are falling apart. were those things true when you met him? you know, you talk about your own history coming up in the west lake projects, coming from ohio, you go through two hbcers, you work for the clinton administration, you try out for "the apprentice" and part of what you did in your audition process to land that gig was to study donald trump, to study everything about him, to essentially become him, a female version of him. as you really looked into who he was, is that what you saw, a person who is not intelligent, a person who is not articulate, a person who is out there and odd? >> joy, when i met donald trump back in 2003, i remember the first moment i walked into the boardroom and he came out. he was so sharp.

i would even say i thought he was brilliant. the reason why i wanted to go on "the apprentice" because i wanted to win and lead one of his companies. what he did during "the apprentice" was nothing short of just a huge success. 28 million people watched us. he was an incredible entertainer. unfortunately, as the years have gone on, donald trump has not in any way expanded his capability. in fact, what we've seen is this huge decline in his ability to process difficult information. one of the shocking things in the first year of the white house is that he didn't read any of the legislation. he never read any of the executive orders and even the basic notes i outlined for him for listening sessions or tours or meetings, he struggled with. it's kind of concerning as to whether or not he is still fit to carry out his duties of this office. >> a lot of people have, i'm sure, talked to you personally and in interviews you've done talked about your perception of donald trump now being racist, but going back to when you first met him, whether that perception -- a quote from your

book, as i thought at the time, your perception of him, he's racial in that he uses race and race relations to manipulate people. and this was at the time in 2015. you also -- you were an obama supporter. you were a supporter of president obama. you talked about him hateding barack obama. that's going back to 2007, 2008, that he hated him. he thought of him as a phoney and that he complained about him. he was a birther. did those things at the time make you think, wait, this guy is not just racial, he might be racist? >> thank you for asking the question. i think it's important. i don't want to get into an academic discussion which is what we were having when i was talking in 2015 about the difference, but i can give you a clear example of racial versus racist. when donald trump started attacking nfl players about kneeling, he only attacked african-american athletes. it wasn't him calling out and saying he was racist, but he was being racial. he was trying to stir up his

base by using an issue he knew his base would gravitate to, to see him attack wealthy, prominent, african-american men. he wasn't necessarily saying he's being racist but he was being racial because he's intent on starting a race war. that's what i believe. >> and you -- when you talk about his attitude toward president obama, you said you perceive the reason he disliked president obama and was so fixated on him is because obama was black. did you perceive that at the time, in '07-'08? >> in '07-'08, no. but the moment, the moment wet got into. the white house and they compiled a list of obama's greatest accomplishments and he and steve and steve bannon sought out to discredit every president obama accomplished, even if it meant it would be harmful to this country and harmful to the commitments he made on the campaign trail, it did not matter. if it was one of the major things that president obama accomplished, donald trump wanted to dismantle it. for example, the affordable care act.

i mean, he doesn't care if americans have health care because if it's called obamacare, he wants to destroy it. whether it's good or bad for this country. and i think that's very dangerous, joy. >> i want to play for you a little clip from a presser you write about in the book that you say was hurtful to you when you saw it at the time. this was during the campaign, during april of 2018, six of your fellow "apprentice" contestants speaking out about trump's candidacy. they came out and said flat out, donald trump is racist. you write, i flashed back to the taping in season one of "the apprentice" and rumors i've heard ever since of trump describing kwame at uppity. you also write in the book, when you were fired, you believed it was because of your knowledge of a tape of donald trump using the n-word potentially about kwame jackson. during the campaign when your fellow cast members are out there saying, this man is a racist, you as someone who knew

him better than anybody, you spent time in the boardroom on purpose, how did you not come to that same conclusion? >> you know, i -- hindsight is 20/20, joy, and certainly i wish i could have seen what they saw. i write about how painful it was to watch them say those things because i hadn't come to that realization. i had this blind spot for him. watching them talk, and i have such respect for randall pinkett who served as the first african-american "apprentice" and he talked about things going on in the trump organization, the culture of deceit, lies, backstabbing. these are things i did not know but randall shared. it was really hard to watch that. i think in "unhinged" you see it slowly evolves, this realization that donald trump is want the person he says he is. >> there are some wow moments in the book i haven't heard anyone talk abouty et. maybe i missed it when i was in england. you had a conversation with steve bannon. when people talk about the racism of this white house, of

them bringing white nationalism indoors, steve bannon is the first name most people talk about. you say, i asked bannon if the rumors of his being a racist were true. he said no. he explained, the same way you are a proud african-american woman, i am a proud white man. what's the difference between your pride and my pride? what did you think when you heard that? >> i have to tell you, steve bannon was always straightforward about who he is, where he stood, he was unapologetic and i wanted to understand what his perspectives were, where they came from, where they birthed this type of hate, alignment, and he explained very clearly that he was a proud, white man. i tried to push back. if you ever sat -- i don't know if you have, but i had a chance to sit down and talk to him. it's actually scary in some ways for him to not see how harmful the alignment with white supremacy and the alt-right, the arm it's doing to this nation and the very fabric of who we

are and what we're built on. >> were you uncomfortable serving in an administration with steve bannon, steven miller who has an association with richard spencer, that kind of thing? >> joy, i've worked in corporate america for 20 years. i've worked with people who are closeted racist, openly racist. i'm a black woman in america. the truth of the matter is, you're going to encounter people who have very hateful views. i've learned as most african-american professionals have learned to navigate a sea that's not always kind to african-americans, but you still have to some way find a way to thrive and persevere. >> sure. another story you tell in the book is about meredith mcgyver. i don't know if you remember that, when she essentially took the fall, took the blame for melania trump plagiarizing michelle obama's speech at the republican convention. you write, they chose mciver as the sacrificial lamb, but they

needed to keep her under control so she was not fired. if they had fired her, she would have been free to tell the world any number of trump secrets. before you expound on what you think those secrets might have been you also talk about her being a woman of color, which i don't think anybody knew. >> first of all, she's brilliant. she's a brilliant writer. she helped write most -- maybe two or three of donald trump's books. i was very surprised when they said that she was the reason that melania's speech looked so much like michelle obama, because i know how incredibly smart she is and that's not something she would have done. which is why it was important for me to tell the truth about the fact that she had to fall on the word. she wanted to resign but they wouldn't let her. as you saw with this offer i got from laura trump to maintain, to stay in the trump world, they want to control you. they want to silence you. they want to buy you off. not to say that's what she did. she stayed in the organization. i can attest she's a brilliant woman that never would have taken a whole paragraph and plagiarized it and put it in

melania's speech. >> knowing her, do you think she would do as david pecker and some others have done and go to robert mueller and agree to talk about what she knows about the trump organization? >> i would just say to that, protect yourself. protect yourself. as you can see with allen and the other people and david, who was my former boss at ami, they're all protecting themselves. they're going and they're going to tell their story but they're not going to have to face any kind of criminal charges with that immunity. if she has an opportunity to protect herself, i would say it's important to do that. >> you talk about david pecker, he became your boss after you yourself had an encounter with "the national enquirer," a reporter attending secretly the funeral of your brother, i believe. and then them going to publish a story about you and donald trump intervening, getting them to pull the story and offer you a job. so, you've been -- >> no, they actually ran the story. they ran the story about my brother's murder and they sent this reporter, who pretended to be a mourner and came to the funeral and she took little clips from my eulogy for my brother and wrote it in the story as if she interviewed me.

>> and then how did that story -- how did you wind up going from that to working for david pecker? >> yeah, that's one of the things i talk about in "unhinged" is donald trump calls me, here's my friend, my mentor, someone i respect. he says, i understand you're going to sue "the national enquirer." what you don't know, it's owned by my good friend david pecker and surely there's something we can do instead of you spending thousands and thousands of dollars on taking him to court. surely we can find a better resolution. as you can see in the book, i had a tremendous amount of respect for donald. i did not know david pecker was his good friend nor did i know this understanding of catch and kill these stories or in this case, try to put down a lawsuit. after the negotiation, as you'll see in "unhinged request the reque -- i become the editor of reality magazine and working for david pecker for two whole years. that's a separate book i could write about working for david

pecker and "the enquirer" and "star" magazine. >> you talk about david cohen -- >> michael cohen? >> michael cohen, sorry. were you surprised when he turned on donald trump? >> first of all, i adore michael cohen. i've never hid that. i think you see that, how much i adore him in the book. and i am sad to see him going through what he's going through. i adore his wife. his daughter was my intern at the white house. she's brilliant. i am really, really saddened, moreover, to see donald trump kick michael cohen while he's down, while praising paul manafort. i mean, michael cohen did everything he was asked to do. he was directed to make those payments by the president of the united states. he was completely loyal. he was a loyal soldier. carrying out all of the things he was instructed to do by donald trump, who was the general. >> and do you think that he has evidence that would be material to the russiagate portion of the muellergate investigation? >> he has that and much more.

michael cohen knew all about all of donald trump's dirty secrets, all his dirty deals, all of his corruption. and i'm glad michael cohen is going to actually participate and cooperate with these investigations because the american people have a right to know what's going on and who truly elected to be president of the united states. >> you know other players in the donald trump universe that you do write about in the book. who else do you think might come forward? you know keith schiller, donald trump's long-time bodyguard. do you think he's somebody that might come forward? are there -- >> keith signed one of the -- he signed one of those agreements they offered me. i believe he's being paid $15,000 a month. when you sign on, you sign this incredible nda that does not allow you to talk or share those stories. essentially he's been silenced. i don't know what he can and can't do under that agreement. all i do know is he speentered o an agreement that does not allow him to talk in a negative way by

donald trump. >> you say you felt uncomfortable with paul manafort when he came on the campaign. why? >> paul manafort was always looking out for himself. he never talked about how this could advance the campaign. he always tried to position as to how different decisions and policy could help to advance him and rick gates. even when i talked to him about issues that were concerning to the african-american community, he was very dismissive because he didn't see the end game for him. >> i want to come back to -- i know someone who has known you for a long time. when they found out i was going to be talking to you, had things they want to know, having known you back in the day. >> who's that? >> i'm not going to tell you who it is. one of the questions he had -- >> can you at least tell me who it is? >> no. lots of people have asked me questions. oh, please ask her this. a lot revolve around things like the central park five. you studied donald trump, you were very honest in the book about seeing his miyogny, about him being creepy to his

daughter. you knew the negatives as well as positive. on race you even talk about at a certain point in the campaign talking to him about the central park five, trying to convince him these young men were not guilty. what was his response when you tried to explain to him the central park five were actually not guilty? >> it's interesting because donald trump tried to give me a history lesson be about the central park five. he said they admitted guilt. they admitted they carried out these acts. you weren't there, omarosa. they pleaded guilty and said they did these acts. he said the truth didn't come forward for years later and he felt he was being judged by information he had at that time, based on them being exonerated years later. when he explained that to me, you know, i gave him the benefit of the doubt that there was a time difference. what he's continued to do, now that he knows the truth, now that there's dna evidence, now that they have completely been exonerated and he still continues to hold on towards the hate and animosity he has against these gentlemen, it's just -- it's unacceptable.

and it showings you how illogical he is and how married to his hate he is. >> a lot of people have wanted to know, what was going on in your mind as you're watching things like donald trump retweeting naz sfwlis during the campaign, david duke coming out with this full-throated support, the alt-right gloming onto him. as the only african-american woman you're -- >> i talked about in the book how important it was to be that african-american that took him to task on every single one of these things. should, i could have quit in protest but then there would be a void of a voice and someone to advocate for us. right now in the white house there is no african-american representation. there are no african-american senior staffers, no african-american assistants to the president. they're making decisions about us without us. people can agree or disagree whether or not there should be representation. i happen to believe there should be. it shouldn't be me because i'm out, but i'll tell you that we still need african-american leadership, african-american civil rights leaders to go and fight for the things that are

important for advancing our community. that hasn't changed for me. we still need a voice. >> one of the things in the book is you write about what really was it for you. that you write about charlottesville being a turning point in terms of your perception of donald trump, as you said the cult thing wearing off and waking up. but at that point, that was the summer of 2017. you didn't resign. in fact, no one resigned in protest over charlottesville. do you look back and wish you had? you have a flair for the dramatic, as donald trump does. had you resigned as the only african-american woman staffer in the white house, as the senior-most african-american in the white house, other than ben carson, if you had resigned it would be have been a tidal wave. why didn't you resign? >> yeah, the reason i didn't resign is because there were 100 students, 100 representatives from historically black colleges and universities, they're call hbcu all-stars. i had been preparing this conference that was going to happen in september. the white house conference on historically black colleges and

universities. and i called armstrong williams and i said, i'm going to quit. this is it. i'm done. he said, you can't let those students down. you've been working -- you can't just leave in protest. you have to find someone to take your place. you have to find a way to make sure these initiatives are carried out. just like gary cohen who stayed off for months and months because he had financial issues on the table. there were issues important to me that i couldn't just throw up my hands. sure, i could have left in protest but those students never would have had the experience of a lifetime, to come to washington, to see how government works firsthand. i wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to the u.n., i wouldn't have had an opportunity to work on the issues of haiti, flint, all these issues important to not just throw up my hands and leave. but i certainly knew that january 20th of 2018 would be my kicker, the end of my time in the white house. unfortunately, as you see in the book, general kelly decided that the situation room would be a better way to end my time in the white house, locking me there

and making threats, saying things will get ugly for me and there would be damage to my reputation. and so, you know, that's all in "unhinged." i think it's important for people to read the entire story and not just take slivers of it. this is my life story and my true journey to get over obstacles to get where i am today. >> it's a best seller so a lot of people have already read it. you talk about john kelly. you open with the firing, with being pulled into the situation room in order for john kelly to fire you. you write a lot about him. do you think john kelly's racist? >> oh, yeah, i mean, john kelly thought the civil war was about compromise. it wasn't about compromise, general john kelly, it was about slavery. >> you also write john kelly never met with you, he never had any time of day for you, but you also write at the time he was firing you believed it was because somehow he knew that you knew there was an n-word tape from donald trump's "apprentice "request the days. how would he know that if he

didn't even interact with you? >> there's a whole e-mail chain. you're the first one to ask me, joy, and i'm glad you asked. as i stated, everything in my book can be corroborated, documented and verified. on that day, the first e-mail is hope hicks. the e-mail will become public because they're government e-mails. i sent an e-mail to hope explaining to her i was concerned about the chatter i was hearing, that someone was about to release this tape. hope responds to me and she says, we've already contained this or we already dealt with this, which i thought was interesting. because of that exchange, that happened in the morning at 10:00 a.m. by 5:00 i got an e-mail from john kelly's assistant saying he wanted to met me in the situation room. it's hard to ignore that coincidence that i had that exchange in the morning and in the evening he was locking me in the situation room making threats. the white house knows this, hope hicks knows this and john kelly knows that. >> you mention the e-mails, you

released some tapes, you have video and audio tapes. when you we want into the white house, when you took that job, did you have the intent of ultimately writing a book? is that why you kept so many recordings? >> no, my intention was to serve my country. when i took my oath to the constitution, to this country, i took it very seriously. this is my second tour of duty working in the white house. i know the importance of working and serving for your country. and trying to help improve the lives of african-americans throughout our community. and so i took my job very seriously. i am an author. this is my third book. certainly, this is what i like to do. i like to write about my experiences. but my intention was to serve my country and do it honorably. >> you definitely were recording the whole time. were you doing it with the intention of writing a book? there was an issue with april ryan, who was a friend of yours for a long time, that you said was recorded. >> it's funny you mention her because -- it's funny you mention her because no one has really even acknowledged the fact that the story she manufactured in december has

been debunked. >> has it? >> i think it's pretty sad -- it has. i have a tape of the beginning -- from the moment i went into the situation room until the end. >> again, so -- >> that happened in a different space. but i don't want to spend time on her. it's a cwaste of time. i wanted to give people an opportunity to see what's happening in the white house. your taxpayer dollars go towards funding our salaries and making sure this country is run well. you have a right to pull the curtain back and see what happens in the oval office, what happens in the cabinet room, what happens on air force one. that's why i wrote this book, because people need to know about what's happening in a trump white house. i'm glad they're responding well. it's top of the list, "the new york times" best sellers list. joy, i'm glad i had a chance to sit down and talk to you. now i have to run and give a speech for women in ministry. >> i know. >> i'm glad we had a chance to chat after your vacation. >> this is my last question

because this is the most asked question i get about you. the same -- >> please. >> -- sent me the sammy davis jr. article from "the chicago tribune" and it says, maybe omarosa deserves a second chance like we gave sammy davis jr. as you recall, sammy davis jr. lost his black card when he endorsed richard nixon's re-election in 1972. he earned it back years later after acknowledging his mistake supporting a president that african-americans demisal and renounced nixon for reneging on promises he made regarding civil rights. it's respectfully i ask you this, sister, because everyone wants me to ask you, is part of your purpose for writing this book is to get the proverbial black card back? as a way of saying to the african-american community, i want to come back, i want to be back on your side? >> first of all, i never left. i'm a woman who grew up in extreme poverty in the west lake projects. i have stab wounds. i have survived the worst types of atrocities you can see.

moreover, i made very clear decisions how to educate myself at hbcus, i continue to work in the african-american community and black church. that assertion you can be stripped of your blackness, i am an african-american woman that walks around very proudly. you can't strip me of what i've been through, of what i've experienced, and moreover, i can't take this off or put it on. god is the author and finisher of my fate. he writes my life's story and determines my destiny. i don't get into a trivial can debate if someone accepts me or not. the only one i'm concerned about accepting me is our lord and savior jesus christ. he when says, well done, my good and faithful servant. that's the only person i'm concerned with pleasing and that's what i work towards every single day, which is why i'm running to go to a women in ministry conference. >> omarosa, reminding people she has a theological degree as well. good to talk to you. >> thanks, joy.

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i see a person who conned his way into the white house and is trying to use his limited intellect to try to kind of fool people, but when you see him give speeches like that, then you know firsthand why i titled this book "unhinged" because he truly is unraveling. he's showing signs of decline, instability, impulsivity, and he has a struggle with the truth as we saw so very clearly this week, joy. >> omarosa is spilling all the it tea on donald trump. not only is she calling him unhinged but moments ago she told me trump is unraveling before our very eyes. join swjoining me, randall pin t pinkett, winner of "the apprentice" season four. you heard what omarosa had to say. i had to start at the end because literally, as people found out this interview is coming can up, that's what people wanted to know. is this book -- no one can take your black card, obviously, but is this an attempt to get invited to the cookout.

do you believe that's what's going on? if so, do you think it's succeeding? >> well, i think you can get your black card taken. ask o.j. >> oh, that's true. o.j.'sed my have been shredded. >> that's right. once it's gone, it's never coming back. there's a point of no return. when you're the face and the spokesperson for the african-american community for donald trump, for donald trump, that's a liability. and the idea that now having been fired and writing the book that we can now reconnect to that, it's very -- it's almost appalling. you know, when we think about donald's track record, particularly with respect to the african-american community, you talked about it, the central park five, housing discrimination, my "apprentice" finale, the list goes on. when you're the spokesperson for that kind of an individual, you're going to carry the baggage of donald's legacy along with you. and i find donald to be more like going to my optometrist.

the closer i get, the can clearer i can see him. when i didn't know donald, he was the shiny object. the closer i get, the less i like. as well as she's known him, she's known the man for 15 years at close range. i worked for him. there's no way you can say you didn't know the man was a racist. not racial but a racist, given the history and the closer you get, the more you see it. >> and the thing is, i think what a lot of people will see is, look, everybody black except me watched "the apprentice." you guys are both obviously african-americans. you tried out for "the apprentice." people were attracted to donald trump. omarosa talks about in the book him being constantly quoted by rappers. he had hip-hop artist, p. diddy combs at mar-a-lago. i didn't even know about the housing discrimination until he ran for president. what about him made you, all six of you -- let's put up the v.o.

of this. it's an extraordinary press conference, former "apprentice" members of color. what is it in your experience with donald trump brought you to the conclusion he was racist such that it you had that press conference, tara? >> for me, there were several things. the first is when he proposed a blacks versus whites season of "the apprentice." i thought that was horrific. and just the damage that something -- something like that would do and that he was seriously considering it and floating the idea. that was point one. >> omarosa talks about marc burnett setting the seasons up that were provocative, where you had teams mostly black or mostly white. that was the way the show was built. >> that was not experienced on my season but there were very few blacks on my season specifically. i will say this, donald trump, i saw sort of the evolution of him deciding to make race his -- basically his platform. and so it started for me with

the blacks versus white season he proposed on "the aprep tispr and then him being the chief spokesperson on the birther movement and the way he treated randall when randall was such a dominant, unequivocal winner of that season that randall won and he asked him to share his apprenticeship with the -- with the white contestcontestant. he had never done that with any other contestants. the way randall won, there was no competition. it wasn't as if it was so close and he was asking him to share it. to me, it was about diminishing randall and what he accomplished, taking him down a tack because he was so dominant. >> how did -- omarosa was tasked with responding to all of you when you did your press conference. did she reach out to you? did she talk to you about it? >> yes. for me, omarosa was calling me the day before we were going to do the press conference.

i felt she had been dispatched to contact me directly. i think my relationship at the time was the least adversarial. some other contestants had a more adversarial relationship. we had talked over the years. she was reaching out to me 100% directly. i'll never forget it because i was in a meeting with a clipt and a mayor and my phone was ringing over and over and it was omarosa. >> as someone is that worked with donald trump, were you disappointed that a person he were who came from "the apprentice" experience, as you did, who worked with donald trump as you did, went into the white house. omarosa says she did it to be an advocate for african-americans. do you accept that? >> i get the argument. i agree with the argument that we want a seat at the table. without representation, what happens is what happens in puerto rico where john kelly and donald trump have this indifference towards puerto ricans and don't think they're actually americans. but knowing what we knew about donald before he ran, and even through the campaign, it's hard to accept the idea that you can

knowingly go into that kind of an administration -- i love the point you made is, why not quit after charlottesville? if it wasn't anything that happened before, if you took the red pill, you're out of the matrix, you have this moment of epiphany, why not leave after charlottesville? i understand the hbcu conference. we can work around that. it's a question of, what do you stand for? if you stand with donald trump, you must stand for what he stands for. that's why i left the trump organization. having seen the inner workings at a close distance, i said, i can't get on board with the culture of this organization. >> one of the things i found surprising is, you know, even to the point of making a woman of color, meredith mciver take the fall for melania trump, who was inducted into birtherism by donald trump, for plagiarism? >> omarosa made the point that she stayed because she had these policy initiatives she's working on. what are the tangible outcomes we've seen for the african-american community from this white house? we have not seen anything

tangible. the one thing donald trump will take credit for and try to claim is the economy and how that's benefitted african-americans. but that is the economy. he inherited a good economy whereas president obama inherited an awful economy. and he is the one that led us out of the depths of the recession. my firm was a beneficiary of a stimulus grant. so donald trump is benefiting from that. but what have we seen that's benefitted the african-american community from this administration? what we have seen is not benefits but we've seen a rise in hate against our community. there was a young girl, an article recently about a 5-year-old girl that was urinated on by a man while he was calling her the n-word. these types of situations and incidents, awful situations and incidents, are occurring with greater frequency. yes, part of it is we have social media, but social media at this point has been around for a long time. cell phone cameras at this point have been around for a long time. we've seen an uptick in this

type of comfort level that people feel and being able to call us the n-word on the streets, to attack us in the way they weren't able to do before. before it was something they knew they could not get away with. now people feel this openness and this ability to just treat black people the way they do. i attribute that to donald trump. >> you know, on the other side of that, i have to say because omarosa went into the white house, we have her receipts on other members, african-american members of the team knowing or at least acknowledging that he probably did use the n-word. at the end of the day it's policy, not words. it's the things he's doing, it's ben carson trying to strip the poor of their housing, taking away obamacare, locking children in cages, that's the stuff that really matters. her being there and being able to record -- she admits she recorded. she intended to write a book. she has a lot of receipts. i haven't seen anyone else directly ask steve bannon if he's a racist. she asked him and got an answer that was surprising. we got confirmation on bannon.

at the end of the day, there are people who are arguing, you know what, omarosa is performing a national public service. >> this is a great book. it's set by the door. check it out. infiltrating an organization to learn the inner workings of the organization. you have a spike lee movie with -- >> black klansman. >> another great example. if there is some saving grace of omarosa going out of the matrix, we have insights we wouldn't have otherwise had. >> and receipts. >> and receipts. and they'll probably try to discredit her, it's a good thing she has evidence to support her arguments and to support what's in her book because otherwise it would have no credibility and that insight would be lost completely. >> we also have donald trump ultimately showing who he is by calling this woman who he nurtured her career for 15 years, a dog, a low-life dog. if he would say that about omarosa, i'm not sure you need a tape. >> also, she has these tapes but, you know, the thing is she went in there knowing she had to tape him. >> that's absolutely right.

>> she wasn't alone. >> absolutely right. cohen did, too. >> thank you for coming to our t.e.d. talk. thank you. a programming note, tomorrow on "am joy," fellow "apprentice" alum k wit alum kwame jackson will join the table. have republicans expanded their strategy to a south afternoon strategy? we'll talk about it next. on ear♪ uhp. i didn't believe it. again. ♪ ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth? ♪ i want to believe it. [ claps hands ] ♪ ooh i'm not hearing the confidence. okay, hold the name your price tool. power of options based on your budget! and! ♪ we'll make heaven a place on earth ♪ yeah! oh, my angels! ♪ ooh, heaven is a place on earth ♪ [ sobs quietly ] ♪ ooh, heaven is a place on earth ♪ at booking.com, we can't guarantee you'll good at that water jet thingy... but we can guarantee the best price on this hotel. or any accommodation, from homes to yurts.

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coming on "am joy," donald

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africa has begun, and you may have seen this in the press, seizing land from his own citizens without compensation because they're the wrong skin color. that is literally the definition of racism. nothing to see here, says mike pompeo, state department. it's totally okay for south africa to steal property for racist reasons. >> donald trump continues to receive briefings on international affairs from his de facto state-run media, fox news, after tucker carlson repeated a white nationalist myth of genocidal campaigns against white farmers in south africa. trump tweeted africa for it the first time in his presidency in defense of those farmers. trump tagged carlson and fox news that asked his secretary of state to closely study the south africa land and farm seizures. none of those things are happening. joining me is rick wilson, best

seller "everything trump touches dies" and tim weiss, author of "white like me." tim, i have to tell you, it was shocking to hear tucker carlson go off on this sort of tirade, this sort of -- that is kind of the basis of the white genocide hashtag about south africa, supposedly this genocide against white farmers. it is one of the sort of hallmarks of what you heard from dill ruffe of south africans to be massacr massacred. to have the president retweet that this, did it surprise you as much as it it shocked am he? >> nothing is shocking. the dog whistles get louder and this was so loud the original las lassie could hear it.

this is not necessarily a this is not new relation about the white supremacist rhetoric. it's going on the right. very long time. go back to early 2000s. debates around obamacare. rush limbaugh and when they were relevant. talking about health care reform back door for slavery. likely to start con city kating white farnl farms in america. trump is trying to get on what jody calls the fear of black and brown folks paying back white people for the history of racism. i don't see the tweet being about south africa at all. a way to scare white americans. of black people here in the country. all part of a larger political

process. >> rick wilson, there's always been a fringe. there is a fringe in part of life on the planet. that kind of talk about white genocide used to be on the in the fever kwauchl. the idea it's on the most popular mediaout let of conservatives in the rank of republicans and coming out of official twitter account of the president of the united states, that is actually a change, no? >> look, this is a president who appeared on info wars. and you've got idiots likes breitbart and white house press credentials. they have not only want in sort of crazed conspiracy stuff out here. they welcome it. part of it every day. a president who had a guy that was a nonconspiracy theorist in the office. doesn't surprise me. lost the capacity for shock.

in this particular case, the dog whistling is as loud as a siren on this one. one person speculated the other day this is donald trump preparing for real trouble and trying to keep the hardest hard core of his base. the guys who like the crowd. >> just to get some truth into the matter. former u.s. ambassador of south africa. tweeted the president meets political distraction to turn gaze away from criminal. tweeted south africa rejects the perception to divide the nation and divide of the colonial past. white residents eight of the population own 70% of farmland. if i'm telling you something new, used to be white nationals.

you could be a member of the clan. and be mayor of governor. didn't really matter. a time in our history where that was normal. it is wrong to say it's something new. something new in the modern era for a president to. >> right. this is -- i always talk about the fact that george bush didn't propose a muslim ban after 9/11. this president did. trump's racism is a brand new extra hot sauce version of the bigotry black people have been warning white people about for 100 years. this is why this tweet is so dangerous. one, it's sort of racialized distraction that the right does. the day we find out manafort is in trouble, fox news run as story about mollie tibbetts. the day they come forward, we start august about south africa. that damaged the economy. it also use the term. it's not a dog whistle.

it's a sign this presidency is aligning itself with global white nationalist and white supremacists. this is the connection drawn between him and israel. right wing groups in italy and uk. when the president of the united states said of all of things that are happening in africa, good and bad, we're going to be concern concerned about this particular issue. he's saying this is white national development and this is a policy. it is a danger to the world when he tweeted that. >> where does it go? what's the end game of playing this game? >> well, for donald trump, the end game is probably simply to stay in power. the end game for the country and i agree with the previous comments incredibly dangerous for the world. we knew empower forces of this around the world. oh, we just discovered we're actually the minority on the planet. for years we act like we were

the majority. we suddenly discovered we're not. when you're used to be top dog around the globe and your nation and suddenly you have so share, i guess it's frightening to people. feels like oppression to have to engage in pluralism. the future is how we respond to this moment. do we stand up and challenge this resurgent white nationalism. and say not in our name. >> or those republican, why are they so quiet. >> the culture of d.c. right now in the republican party the fraction is trump is smaller than people think. the fraction terrify offend trump's base and trump tweeting mean things of them or fox news turning on them is enormous. they're willing to swallow humiliation and problems and issues. they ask what you think about this. they tell you it's typical of

trump in every way. lack the moral courage to stand and you happen say directly into the cameras this president is engaging in things that are overtly racial. i've always said racism is ultimate lay white people problem. they created the problem. i know people don't like to say that. it's true. that's what we have to understand in this country. >> wow, what a time to be alive. >> thank you all for being here. hope you will come back. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely.

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so good to see you again. i missed you. >> isn't that funny. although good to see the rest. >> i'm sure you had a great time. i'm i was envious. i have to hang out with alex. good day to all of you. cuts a deal with federal prosecutors in the investi