no one has your back like american express. so no matter where you're going... we're right there with you. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. don't live life without it. good morning. welcome to politics nation. today, the nation mourns the loss of john mccain, the republican senator from arizona who has died at the age of 81. mccain had a full life of achievements, with the u.s. military, famously surviving more than five years as a prisoner of war. then as a senator for decades. and even a run for the presidency. this morning, we want to start

by highlighting his life and career. with me here on set is presidential historian michael, radio talk show host hugh hewitt and democratic strategist, don callaway. one of the things, before we get into the many moments of recognition and respect that the nation came to have for senator mccain. one of the things that struck me personally, is that he could get along and reach out to people he disagreed with. he and i disagreed in 2000, when he ran for president. he said things about the democrats were getting too much like the al sharpton's of the world. i shot back. then we met somewhere in capitol hill and he reached out and said, you know, at least you believe in what you believe in and i do, too.

we became friendly. years later, as i started doing this show, i would have his daughter on a couple times. i will never forget he stopped me at the obama inauguration and says, you know, al, i want to thank you for respecting my daughter. even though you disagree, it means a lot when your kids are respected. i said i have daughters, i understand that. you could disagree with him without being disagreeable. with all we have in politics now, that's the thing i thought most about when i heard he was, you know, facing this moment, then finally -- >> great place to start, what will be a long day of remembrances. he was a great radio guest, but i always opposed him in his running for president in 2000 and 2008. he was the funniest guest. he would yell and you and make fun of you. he was relaxed in who he is. he was a great american.

as a fighter pilot, i read most of the stuff about annapolis this morning. maybe fighter pilots make great candidates. george h.w. bush was a fighter pilot. martha mcsally, running for the seat in arizona. maybe they built into them, they can get along with anyone they are not trying to kill. >> well, michael, let's go there. you are the historian. what are the highlights that we will remember about john mccain 50 years from now, 100 years from now? what will matter in history? >> it starts with the kind of person he was. this is a guy who believed in making friendships across the aisle. this is what the founders wanted. they wanted us to argue about policies. they wanted congress flikt. they wanted a congress where people duped it ouchlt they felt if you have big debates and

fights, you have the be policy. at the same time, they wanted friendships, she relationships, they wanted people to have civility. that was total john mccain. if you are talking john mccain and history, you have to begin with his character, nowhere more demonstrated than by the courage which he dealt with 5 1/2 years as a p.o.w. >> where he could have been released because of his family's father and his grandfather. he refused to go. >> refused to go. that gave him a moral stature that no matter what else he did in politics, whether you agreed with him or disagreed, this was something of a higher playing field. >> you know, don, one of the things that i think will also be part of a long legacy and certainly no one can ever forget the five years he did as a prisoner of war and him being re-elected six times to the

senate and all of that. when he came against doctors advice and cast that deciding vote, it saved the affordable care act that was before the senate. it was for the guy that beat him for president. i mean, i don't think anyone could ever capture that moment and put it in the right words. >> that should be framed on every american university wall, hands out and thumbs down. such a dramatic moment, which you rarely find in politics. you rarely have that climatic thing. an iconic moment in the united states senate. we all participate in this d.c. congressional complex, if you will, where there are staffers and lobbiests and media folks

like ourselves. at the end of the day, leadership flows from the top. in order for this town to work and public policy to work, you have to have members who are leaders and welcoming and have discussions regardless of race or gender. what worries me is senator mccain was one of the worst, who shows this town how to operate without hating each other. if people were making policy in this town, that bodes terribly for this country. it's a big, big loss here. >> listen to how senator mrk cane said he wanted to be remembered. >> what do you think cob remembered for? >> he served his country. that's what i would like to see. he served his country, hopefully with the word honorably on it. that's all. >> will he be remembered for

that, michael? >> absolutely. more than most of us will be. i think the other thing about him is that, you know, it's a wonderful american story. you begin with that time in annapolis, you were talking a little bit about it, of all the people we would have expected to grow up to be a great leader, that would not have been it. fifth of the bottom from the class. this loud hellraiser and father and grandfather were in the military. >> he probably rebelled to them. >> absolutely. finally, a hero in vietnam comes back here and has a stellar career. a lot of people don't know about the detainee victim act. very, very important to him once they were treated. he did great work for native

americans and veterans. he was a campaign finance reform junkie. he has a long legislative record. chuck schumer came along with renaming a building the mccain building. that's a great idea. there's history we don't want to elevate and john mccain only has his w history we want to elevate. >> president obama issued this statement. all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. at john's best, he showed us what that means. and for that, we are all in his debt. >> don, you have president trump who, it has been publicly said

was not invited to whatever the funeral services will be this week and president obama, who defeated john mccain in 2008 has been asked to give one of the eulogies. give us the, since you brought up how you are three creatures of the beltway here in d.c. on the outside of here. >> that's right. >> we are from the midwest. >> you guys are comfortable on the hill. give us what that means on the hill. obama, who defeated him, giving win of the eulogies, trump not invited. >> two weeks ago, we saw the president at the passing of the defense spending bill, refuse to mention mccain's name, who it was named after. >> everyone that spoke that day did not mention his name. many of us suspect they were told.

>> clearly at the direction of the current president. more than being a creature of d.c., i'm a creature of the southern baptist church. i think that the lesson of john mccain is, hopefully, one that this president learns, one of redemption. we will give this president the opportunity to behave in a dignified fashion at the passing of our friend senator mccain and we hope he can take some examples. a dig anified example of leadership and how he bought into the politics of hate. we remember the woman saying obama is at his rally. he rejected that to her face. >> and took the mike. >> and took the mike, in front of the party and set the example. we can only hope, on a sunday, that president trump has lessons in redemption and growing up, being better than.

that is the lesson of senator john mccain. >> you know, you said you interviewed mccain a lot. >> yeah. >> one of the things i got around him was he made you act at least a little more mature. you had to put your big boy pants on. >> you had to stand-up straighter. the one what if. if no bill clinton, if no ross perot, the person who succeeds george h.w. bush is the nominee, following two terms is john mccain. his timing was this much off. in 2000, he had to go up against w. with ross perot not there, john mccain is the successor to george h.w. birth. >> people remember the campaign where barack obama was

irresistible and impossible to defeat. ten years ago, mccain was nominated for president. the first two weeks, look at the poll, running away was john mccain by four points. >> he picked sarah palin, who brought the tea party and donald trump. >> history is funny, in many respects. >> john mccain was the hair to the great states people of the republican party. i haven't often found in history, i agree they were. i will say for senator mccain was a patriot that believed in america. i think donald trump was an heir to sarah palin in terms of the acrimony, you against them politics she brought into politics in 2008 and that he kind of brought to another level now or to a lower level,

depending on your opinion. >> he never said a bad word about subpoena. nor questioned the decision. even though she launched the tea party, which brought in president trump and they are not friends, he never said a bad word against sarah palin. they spent a lot of time together. it was a controversial course at the time. >> do you think that if john mccain had become president in 2008, this country would have never seen donald trump and how would it have changed? >> no question. the republican party would have gone on a different trajectory. if romney would have been president in 2012, you would not see donald trump. it shows elections, presidential elections have consequences. i think one great thing that john mccain's career shows is

you could be a senator for three or four decades. at times, you can have as much influence as the president does. >> don, this week, we will be funeralizing senator mccain and aretha franklin. >> do they know each other by the way? >> i wouldn't doubt they did. i'm sure they crossed paths. i raise them together because they distinguish themselves for going outside. john mccain didn't always go along with the republican established order. aretha franklin stepped outside the black church and went secular, but never, ever betrayed her church roots. i think part of the take away is, you have to be firm enough and comfortable enough in who you are to be able to step outside and expand the territory

for everybody. >> if nothing else, aretha franklin was from detroit. john mccain was an american patriot. his slogan in 2008, country first thachlt first. that is what he lived every day. there's a place for you in the american story. whether you are a war hero or a singer in a church in detroit, there's a place for you in the american story if you walk in your values and with integrity. we are thankful for the lives of both of them. >> only on politics nation can you find that with john mccain and aretha franklin. >> well done. >> take 30 minutes and sit by yourself in your car and room. consider five years. the incredible sacrifice of being a prisoner of war for five years. >> being given the option to let

go. because you don't want to leave other prisoners you won't do it. he could have used privilege and didn't. >> torture is tough. when he was captured he was beaten in the lake. he was blessed with a partner in mark salter who helped to tell his story. michael is a great writer as well. it's a story that does, in fact, five years. five years of that stuff, every day, getting beaten up and not cracking. that is a remarkable testament. other p.o.w.s say we all leave in the order we arrive or leave together, but don't go out of turn. >> i have to thank you all at this point. thank you, michael. coming up, the president is up to his neck with legal problems. is now a good time for the

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welcome back. i'm in washington today where the walls continue to crumble around the president of the united states. after a week of one bombshell news story after another, more and more reports suggest president trump is isolated, cornered and under siege.

more importantly, the man, who has always valued loyalty above anything else feels he's being betrayed by his closest friends. i want to bring in msnbc legal analyst danny savalos. it's been a busy week of news. i want you to help us explore the options the president has right now. and, i see you narrowed it down to three options. break it down for me. >> just within the president's pardon power, article two of the constitution, an almost unlimited power with few rules. the president loves tv and loves making deals. he's probably familiar with let's make a deal. he has three options available to him, with serious consequences as to each. behind door one, pardon

manafort, cohen, pardon everybody, if he wants to. door two is the option of pardoning himself and option three is no option at all, pardon no one, take your chances. rev, we are going look at each option. door number one, right here. now, he pardons everybody else like monoforth and cohen, they might lose their fifth amendment privilege against self-incrimination. it may allow them to testify against the president, if he pardons them. second, at this stage, cohen in entering into plea negotiations may have revealed too much. you can't unring that bell once government prosecutors know about it. thirdly, if you pardon someone, the pardon may be valid, but if it's done with a corrupt purpose, it's obstruction. now look at door number two.

there are pros and cons to a self-pardon. one of the pros is you can cover up, as the president, all conduct up to the moment of the pardon, but you cannot pardon future conduct. it's not a pardon if you pardon future conduct, it's a license to commit crime and that's not allowed. second, courts may determine they don't have the power to hear the issue of a self-pardon. in other words, if the president tried to pardon himself and someone challenges it, it is a political question and we can't hear the issue. a self-pardon is possible. whether it's legal is another question entirely. next, we have the cons of the self-pardon. there are minuses to a self-pardon as well. it cannot affect impeachment. that is explicit. no effect, what so ever. and, a self-pardon might not be

constitutional. it's an old principle in our legal system, no one shall be the judge in his or her own case. that's exactly what the courts might conclude. so, that's something to consider. we back out of that door and now we get to choice number three. do nothing. impeachment. if you don't pardon any of the players, could the president be impeached? >> yes. however, it's an open question whether the president could be impeached for conduct that took place before he was in office. andrew jackson killed a man in a dual before he was president. that was not impeachable. governor of maryland conducted misconduct, but they dencided nt to impeach him. doj policy indicates a sitting president cannot be indicted. does that mean it cannot happen?

no. but, that is the policy and appears to be the way the mueller team is proceeding. strangely enough, a viable option in the world of pardons could be to pardon no one, including himself. there you have all the options available to the president in this strange choice of pardons, let's make a deal to pardon or not pardon. rev? >> you know, danny, it's interesting that the author of how to make a deal or whatever his famous book was -- >> monte hall. >> now, all of a sudden, he becomes a contestant of, let's make a deal. trump prided himself with teaching people how to make a deal, the deal maker. he was the great deal maker. he may have to make a deal before this is over. we'll see. door number three, he may make

no deal at all. >> do nothing. >> the problem is, the american people and the process are the one that is are going to be the losers or winners at the end of this process, so, let's hope for the best and for what is right, even if we don't like the results either way. thank you, danny. up next, silent sam is now silent for good. i'll explain when we come back. k

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they are trying to take away our culture. they are trying to take away our history and our weak leaders, they do it overnight. these things have been there for 150 years for 100 years. go back to a university and it's gone. weak, weak, people. >> that was president trump a year ago, chastising activists for removing statues of confederate traders from america's public spaces, including, as you heard, universities.

this week students at the university of north carolina at chapel hill decided that a century old confederate statue dubbed silent sam honored the school's rebel alumni for long enough. so, on monday, more than 200 of them toppled the monument chanting, quote, i believe we will win. let us not forget, as we look at this, that the confederates represented not only the continued enslavement based on color, my people, but they were committing treason against the united states government. as we look at investigations today, that include this president on whether they colluded with american enemy nations, we can, without a

doubt, see those that defend praising those that were enemies of the union of this nation and committed treason, just to keep slaves and to keep their way of life. that's not patriotic. up next, more than the legacy and political impact on senator john mccain. be right back. n senator john mccain. be right back. ♪ heartburn and gas? ♪ now fight both fast new tums chewy bites with gas relief

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senator john mccain, who died last night at 81 was a decorated war veteran, a p.o.w. survivor who was severely injured during his captivity in vietnam. he served in both the house of representatives and the u.s. senate as a republican. he lost his bid for the presidency, as the party's nominee in 2008. but, above all, john mccain will be remembered as a patriarch, hero, an american original. joining me now is jack jacobs, retired u.s. army colonel and honor recipient, msnbc military analyst and congressman for the sixth district, ryan costello.

let me go to you first, colonel jacobs. the captivity, the imprisonment, the p.o.w. status of john mccain for five years, are you, yourself, given medals for your bravery in vietnam, did you and senator mccain ever discuss his captivity and what he went through and how it impacted and affected the rest of his life? >> yeah, we did. we talked about it from time-to-time. i knew a lot of people in prison with him who said, despite the fact that senator mccain had caved, eventually, they found his breaking point, he, himself, said that, he was among the bravest people they ever met. these were brave people, themselves. we had an interesting conversation about the whole notion of getting killed or captured, shot down and so on.

he says, you know, you never think it is going to happen to you. then it happens to you. there's this period of short period of disbelief until you realize, yeah, it is happening to you. he steeled himself against that. he said that now was the time he decided this was the toughest, final exam he would ever face and he was disappointed in himself when he, when they found his breaking point when he shouldn't have been. we talked about it from time-to-time. i related to that because i wasn't captured, but you never think you are going to get hurt. it's always going to happen to the other guy. ultimately, perhaps, it does happen to you. >> five years of torture. five years of repeated beatings. i don't know how -- i don't see how other than him being a stronger man with higher standards that he could think that in any way, shape or form,

that it was a breaking point when he signed what he signed for his captors. i think anyone would have because his strength and his commitment and patriotism had long been proven after five years of that kind of endurance that he had to have. >> he held himself to an extremely high standard, higher than most people hold themselves, much higher standard than people hold. he was a very, very tough guy. held himself to a very high standard. >> let me ask you, congressman, you are a member of congress, republican party, john mccain was one of the senior statesmen of your party, had no problem disagreeing and taking it on. what do the average republican lawmakers, senate and congress, here in the capital, how will

they remember john mccain? of course, everyone will say polite and nice things this week, but in the long term, what impact and affect and what type of role model will he be for future members of your party? >> great question. i think he was equality combative and enthusiastically collaborative with a lawmaker or a president, regardless of their party. in this environment, whether it was climate change, immigration, campaign finance reform, he was out there trying to lead and bring about compromise. you could go back to president bush, he was a thorn in the side, but ultimately got interrogation reform done. he was very critical of president obama on his syrian policy. he's been extremely critical of president trump on nato and russia. just calling balls and strikes as he sees them, i think, is

going to be his legacy. finally, we need more people that when they step up and put their name on a piece of legislation, you know that person is going to lead and they are not going to retreat to their partisan corner when it gets tough or when their base comes out and pushes back. my single most important memory of senator mccain, it's been played here on the station all morning, is when that supporter of his came up to him at that rally and said something about then candidate obama and senator mccain pushed back and we have to have members in both political parties pushing back against their base, even when it's uncomfortable to bring about compromise, show independence and unify our country. he is a perfect example of that. >> isn't that what, in this whole kind of age of rank and acrimony, isn't that congressman

something that we would hope that everyone takes from this moment because, in my encounters with senator mccain, whereas i said we didn't agree on a lot and exchanged public disagreements, i learned if you disagree, you don't have to be disagreeable. there must be a guard post to how we operate in the public space, if we are really trying to make the country and our communities better places. >> absolutely. and the other lesson that i think he can teach us all is when he was asked what his legacy will be, he said, i hope people will say i served my country and hopefully they will put in the word honorably. in a day with social media and everybody trying to be bigger than they are and take credit for things they may have only played a minor role, if any, here was a man who did so, so much, but when it came to

talking about himself, really minimalized how important he was to the country and the legislative process. if you go through the 20th century, into the 2000s, those with the legislative impact on our democracy is senator mccain. here he is asked to sum up his career in public service, makes one or two humble statements. that's a beautiful lesson for those in public office and those growing up. be humble. show humility. admit you don't always get it right. that's another thing senator mccain did. it's a great lesson for us all. >> i have to leave it. i'm out of time. thanks. up next, there's a massive strike going on right now across that country across this country that affects all of us. i'll tell you why, in a moment. t

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we are on the fifth day of a nationwide 19-day prisoner strike. with reports that inmates in

several states are refusing to work, eat and comply with orders from officials until multiple concerns are addressed. among them, prisoner safety, amid a rash of inmate deaths and the meager wages inmates receive to work as farmers, manufacturers or major retailers and even firefighters. all for pennies on the hour. compulsory, yet legal, under the 13th amendment. joining me, a former inmate who is now a prison reform activist and douglas blockman, processor at georgedown and author of "slavery by another name." let me start with you, first,

douglas. the strike, among other things they are saying is the meager wages, pennies per hour that they are forced to do that is reaping major profits for private businesses. most americans or at least many, don't even know that's happening. explain. >> you are right. most americans don't understand how much commercial activity goes on inside prisons across the country. now, it's also, it may not be as much activity as we imagine, sometimes, too. it's not that essential to the economy, but an incredibly important dimension to the lives of thousands of prisoners. what the strike is about is on all kinds of levels, the conditions inside america's prison systems and the whole system itself have been corrupted by the indifference of american citizens and, simply,

our refusal to bear the cost of a society, which decided to incarcerate as many as we have. prisons are unsafe places for many unsafe places for many people, in places where prisoners are humiliated and degraded in many ways. all of those have led to the attempt to have this big national strike. >> darren, in your work as trying to raise these issues, one of the things that strikes me is when i was growing up, they used to call it correction facilities. now it's mostly detention facilities. there is not even the attempt to correct or to redeem people. it's use them, work them, treat them in subhuman ways. and i think that one can make a mistake or even do things that we deem justifiably criminal, but they should not use -- lose their humanity.

>> yeah, i think that people need to understand that hurt people hurt people. and for far too long, the criminal justice system has basically been driven by vengeance and punishment. and we need to understand that this doesn't really heal the situation of the person who was armed and the person who has caused the harm. so that's why incarcerated people throughout the country in about a confirmed 17 states are coming together to demand policy changes around reinstating pell grants, to incarcerate the students, which is very transformative, and so effective that a report showed that spending $1 on higher education to incarcerate a student saves people $4 to $5 in reinca

reincarceration. so people are being sentenced to life. we have juveniles in this country who are sentenced to life. and that actually means a death sentence, that you will not leave prison until you die. so i think the policy of elected officials and people need to pay attention to this. elected officials definitely need to respond to the situation here. >> you know, douglas, i'm a voracious reader, and one to have the books that most impacted me in my life, maybe in the top 7 to 10 books, is your book. because you really broke down in "slavery by another name," that after we got through slavery with the emancipation proclamation, how the criminal justice system and using vagrancy laws and all really set up a new form of slavery and

servitude with black americans that leads into what is -- the strike is all about. and what darren is talking about and i think a lot -- well, most people have no idea this was systemic, and we are still really in the middle of it being used. >> i think you're absolutely right. and you mentioned it in the setup. that the 13th amendment includes an exception, and the 13th amendment is what was supposed to end slavery in america forever, but it includes a phrase that says, slavery is still legal, in the case of when it's punishment for a crime, for someone duly convicted of a crime. and a lot of what i wrote about in my book was that there were thousands and thousands and thousands of people who were arrested for crimes they hadn't committed or for things that were just completely invented, specifically for the purpose of then making it possible to reinslave them. but all of that is also a part of a fundamental problem we have in our country.

and that is that until very recently, we had two systems of justice. .and really, two systems of incarceration. one for white people and one for black people. and in the system for white people, there was at least some attempt to have actual justice. but the system of incarceration, imprisonment, and the justice system itself for african-americans was completely the opposite of that. and now today, we have a system that tries to pull those things together and have one system for all people. but the end result is one that is simply draconian and brutal for everyone. >> i'm going to have to leave it there. this is a very important issue and we certainly will stay on top of it. thank you to darren mack for being with us this morning. thank you, douglas blackman. up next, my final thoughts. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

from any one else. why accept it from an allergy pill? flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it's more complete allergy relief. flonase. now i know you're thinking, "i don't want to hear about insurance." cause let's be honest, nobody likes dealing with insurance, right? which is why esurance hired me, dennis quaid, as their spokesperson because apparently, i'm highly likable. i like dennis quaid. awww. and they want me to let you know that, cue overdramatic music, they're on a mission to make insurance painless. excuse me, you dropped this. they know it's confusing. i literally have no idea what i'm getting, dennis quaid. that's why they're making it simple, man in cafe. and they know it's expensive. yeah. so they're making it affordable. thank you. you're welcome. that's a prop apple.

now, you might not believe any of this since this is a television commercial, but that's why they're being so transparent. anyways. this is the end of the commercial where i walk off into a very dramatic sunset to reveal the new esurance tagline so that you'll remember it. esurance. it's surprisingly painless.

this week, we will funeralize and memorialize two great americans. the queen of soul, aretha franklin and senator john mccain. i got to know miss franklin very well and i, at times, would interact with senator mccain. both famous, both defining who and what america could be. but they were not just famous. they were great in their respective fields, because they

found the inner security and commitment and determination to make a difference. they both were given great awards, but they will not be remembered for their awards and the gifts given them. they will be remembered for the gifts they gave, more than them, that they gave to us the ability to find strength in the songs miss franklin sang in her civil rights work. the ability to have an america that was safer and an america that gave health care and other things that senator mccain stood for, even sometimes against his party. what makes people famous is the gifts they are given. what makes them great are the gifts they give. let's remember that as we remember john mccain and aretha franklin. that does it for me. thanks for watching. and to keep the conversation

going, like us at facebook.com/politicsnation and follow us on twitter at politics nation. i'll see you back here next sunday. now to my colleague, alex witt. >> hey, there, rev. miss you here in the studio, we'll welcome you back soon. but very poignant comments about john mccain and aretha franklin. two giants. thank you, rev. i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters here in new york. 9:00 a.m. in the east, 6:00 a.m. out here in the west. reflection and remembrance pouring in to the memory of senator john mccain. >> senator mccain was always an outsider, he was always a maverick. >> he was a statesman. a walking, talking, living legend of a statesman. zp >> independent, courageous, profile in courage. we want these people to be great people, we want them to be grand. and he was. >> a look back at mccain's sweeping life from the milit