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that wraps up this hour of msnbc live, see you again at noon eastern. time for "a.m. joy" with my good friend joy reid. >> what do you want to be remembered for? >> he served his country. that's what i'd like to see. he served his country hopefully with the word honorably on it. that's all. >> good morning, welcome to "a.m. joy." senator john mccain is being remembered across the political spectrum this morning for his service to the country, whether on the battlefield as a p.o.w. during the vietnam war or in the halls of congress. the long time arizona senator passed away yesterday at the age of 81. his wife cindy mccain tweeted, my heart is broken, i am so lucky to have lived the adventure of loving this incredible man for 38 years. he passed the way he lived, on his own terms, surrounded by the

people he loved in the place he loved best. president barack obama, who faught a tough battle with john mccain will join another mccain opponent, former president george w. bush in speaking at his funeral said this, quote, all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. at john's best he showed us what that means and for that we are all in his debt. nbc's kelly o'donnell has more on senator mccain's life and legacy. >> reporter: spirited young aviator, fierce competitor. >> we face many threats in this dangerous world but i'm not afraid of them, i'm prepared for them. >> reporter: an irascible statesman. >> we never hide from history, we make history. >> reporter: through it all, john mccain carried himself as a joyful warrior. >> i've enjoyed it, every single

day of it, the good ones and the not so good ones. i'm inspired by the service of better patriots than me. >> reporter: patriotism rooted in family. his father and grandfather, both admirals, passed down his name and navy career. more than 50 years ago on his 23rd mission over vietnam, enemy fire downed his plane. >> three american planes were shot down and at least two of their pilots captured. one of them was lieutenant commander john mccain. >> reporter: a prisoner of war for almost 2000 days, tortured and beaten. >> taken to the hospital where i almost died. >> reporter: mccain refused early release to deny communist north vietnam a propaganda victory. in 1973, a celebrated welcome home. courage in war that forged his national identity. >> i fell in love with my country when i was a prisoner in

someone else's. >> reporter: when he remarried in 1980, wife cindy's home state of arizona became his political base, elected to congress and six terms in the u.s. senate where he became known as the maverick. mccain often angered conservatives over issues like immigration, railed against washington's pen antifa for pork barrel spending and challenged his own party's president, george w. bush, to change strategy in the iraq war. >> early on i came out and said this could be not only a long struggle but a losing one unless we change the strategy. >> reporter: mccain's president ambition boarded his straight talk express twice. in 2000, winning the new hampshire primary but having to wait another eight years to become the republican candidate for president. >> i fight to reer to the pride and principles of our party. >> reporter: trailing barack obama, mccain rattled the race

by propelling sarah palin on to the ticket. but history had another plan. mccain returned to the senate and remained a prominent voice. >> probably i'm proudest of being able to contribute to the security of this country and the men and women who serve it. >> are you okay? can i get you anything? >> reporter: his fame led to fun, cam wroes and comedies. >> sorry, i hope everything is okay. >> reporter: mccain loved to get a laugh. he often referred to himself as an imperfect public servant. facing a dire diagnosis like brain cancer fired his independent streak, calling out a drid locked senate. >> we are getting nothing done, my friends. we're getting nothing done. >> reporter: the fighter turned reflective. >> i celebrate what a guy who stood fifth from the bottom of his class at the naval academy has been able to do. i am so grateful. every night when i go to sleep i am filled with gratitude.

>> reporter: with hard-earned scars and an enduring wit, john mccain made service to country the cause of his life. kelly o'donnell, nbc news, washington. joining me is andrea mitchell host of "andrea mitchell reports." on the phone is chris matthews host of "hardball" and michael beschloss. a lot of people are playing back the moment in the 2008 presidential campaign where people that was his finest hour. >> i have to ask you a question. i do not believe in -- i can't trust obama. i have read about him and he's not -- he's -- he's an arab. he is not -- [ laughter ] >> no ma'am. no, ma'am. >> no? >> no. no, ma'am. he's a decent family man citizen that i just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues and that's

what this campaign is all about. he's not. >> andrea, that campaign was singly nasty up to that point. it was a difficult campaign but what did that moment tell you about john mccain? >> that he was not going to play the kind of dirty politics that were rising up and which have threatened to overwhelm the senate and the rest of the country right now. he would not play that game and the fact that he took the microphone away from that woman and at a very critical point. he could have let the rumors fester against barack obama. not that there's anything wrong with being an arab but it was being used in a trogtory sense and he picked up on that right away and corrected the woman at a town meeting in public at a very important point and it showed that he was -- if he's not going to win the presidency he was going to lose with dignity. >> michael beschloss, one of the things that mccain cited as a regret is that he didn't choose

one of his best friends, joe lieberman, as his running mate. he hasn't said anything about sarah palin but he had the sense of wanting to have the country come together, get beyond partisanship, he would use that term, things larger than yourself as important to him. >> that was mccain and one of the most important parts of his legacy and in 2004 john kerry was serious about trying to recruit john mccain to be his running mate on the democratic ticket. that was what he was like and that goes back to the founders, i think, founders wanted members 60 the senate, wanted all of us to have strong views on issues but they wanted us to have relationships across the aisle and be able to come together at the end. they would have recognized john mccain as someone that they wanted to see as someone in public life. they would have loved jim? chris matthews. just in thinking about john mccain i was writing down who i could remember as the great men.

it used to be the senate was the place supposedly for great men before there were women involved. you think about people like edward dirksen, you think about the ed brooks, you think about lyndon johnson before he became president, john glenn, that kind of politician, teddy kennedy who did these big deals even with george w. bush, even barry goldwater if you are a conservative and he was somebody who inspired young conservatives. we don't have that kind of person running for office anymore. or at least we don't have that sort of cross the aisle reverence for a politician the way we did. is john mccain one of the last of that kind of politician? >> well, you're right. you're talking about the classic u.s. senator as portrayed in films and novels like "advice and consent. people who rise above party when they have to and who are independent and willing to stand out and courageously.

that's what jack kennedy wrote "profiles in courage about. people like that and he could be irascible. i think that was kelly o'donnell's term for him. you could be rooting for him with your soul one hour and the next hour you go oh, my god what is he doing? john mccain was john mccain's man, he wasn't ours. he wasn't there for us, he was there for what he thought was right and he was a hawk but i'll give him credit and always have. the hawks that served in war are fine with me. it's the one who support war as an ideology that i have a problem with but he was always -- when trump -- when the president made fun of him for being a prisoner he acted like he had thrown his arms up or something. john mccain was diving his plane over hanoi. if you go over you can see where he was fished out of the water by the people that beat him up. he was treading water and they tried to kill him.

he was on the attack when he was captured and then brutally treated for all those years and he was a hero. >> and michael bern loss, military heroism used to be one of the -- if not a prerequisite for service, it was a great precursor to political success. you think of dwight eisenhower and the greats that came along politically. >> euleulysses grant. >> people that have great reverence for the military. the fact that that was disrespected i think was painful. >> i think it should have been. you mean when donald trump said that about him during the presidential campaign. absolutely. and the other thing is that maybe this was a little bit of the reason but i think john mccain would have been otherwise. john mccain was in donald trump's face from the first day of this presidency speaking out candidly, frankly, courageously when he thought that donald trump went wrong and he thought

he went wrong many, many times all the way up to helsinki with that performance when donald trump was at the side of mapd and if you look through history, often times the greatest presidents have been made greater by criticism from leaders in their own party and what i worry about is that with john mccain gone from the ranks of republicans in the senate and house, where is that kind of reproach going to come from? >> andrea mitchell, i can remember people guessing that that kind of relationship that you saw between john mccain and donald trump, people worried that that might happen with george w. bush. the two of them were not friendly, that was a tough campaign as well in 2000, people thought he might be a scold on the outside. he worked closely with george w. bush on iraq and strategy for iraq and with barack obama. after that campaign, i want to play -- this was john mccain at the al smith dinner 2008. so this is right -- not long

after that painful campaign. this is what senator mccain had to say about barack obama back then. take a listen. >> >> i don't want it getting out of this room, but my opponent is an impressive fellow in many ways. political opponents can have a little trouble seeing the best in each other but i've had a few glimpses of this man at his best. and i admire his great skill, energy, and determination. it's not for nothing that he has inspired so many folks in his own party and beyond. senator obama talks about making history and he's made quite a bit of it already. there was a time when the mere invitation of an african-american citizen to dine at the white house was taken as an outrage and an insult in many parters. today he's a world away from the cruel and privateful bigotry of

that time, and good riddance. i can't wish my opponent luck, but i do wish him well. >> andrea, i think what a lot of people will miss about politics and the way it used to be is that as nasty as campaigns could be -- that was during the 2008 campaign. >> just before the election. >> you still had people have a fundamental respect for one another that carried over after the election was over. >> >> exactly. and while john mccain worked with george w. bush on the surge with general petraeus and overs because he wasable that was the best policy, he worked against the bush white house with dianne feinstein to outlaw waterboarding and go up against torture and fight was he felt was because of his personal experience and also the morals he held that that was just a terrible policy for american uniformed troops overseas as

well so it was in violation of everything he believed in. john mccain and john kerry were not likely allies. they didn't trust each other. john kerry wrote an interesting tribute to him that they didn't trust each other, they didn't know each other and then they went to hanoi together, one who suffered so goorievously, one w fought and returned and was a protester against the war and mccain told him that they in captivity heard there was a naval officer who threw his medals down and his ribbons down and that they found that so offensive but they also came together to help bill clinton normalize relations in 195 in vietnam. he could not have done it without the political support of veterans of that war that he had not enlisted. some said evaded the draft so he worked across the aisle with hillary clinton, with amy

klobuchar more recently. he believed in partnerships. joe liebeman, of course, the best example. >> chris matthews, what do you think ultimately will be john mccain's legacy? >> i think what we've been saying is a good legacy. i think that the comment he made as testimony two weeks before he lost it's the grands your. lieberma lieberman. a war hero comes back to be a senator, becomes a maverick in his own party, independent, this is a character out of a good novel. i remember something. back in 2000 when he ran he was the press' favorite. to say that as a generalization

is dangerous. i can never read andrea's politics even with people you know pretty well but i think people rooted for him as a hero and not because he's a republican or democrat but because he represented the romance that we all have towards the heroes we want to find in any field, sports, anywhere. we want to find somebody we can look up to. for a lot of us that didn't fight in the vietnam war, i think there was that, too. and in 2008 a lot of people, i was one who was taken with barack obama and i think there was a sense on his part that he lost his base as he used to call it, the media, and this is always tricky to talk but a lot of people would have been very happy for -- people i know across the board politically and in the media who would have been very happy to see john mccain elected president back in 2000. back then he was -- when we went

down to clem seine with hson wi the horrendous south korea primary where they aused him of fathering an illegitimate daughter, his adopted daughter from south asia and they said, no, that was a mixed race daughter of his through illegitimate relations and he took up with that and then they attacked cindy for drug problems. it was a vicious campaign and yet he came through it and i think a lot of john mccain's life was just trying to bring down, suppress or repress a lot of reason for bitterness, either politically or because of what happened in the war and i think a lot of his life was trying to make himself a better man. he kept trying to improve on himself. it was a self-made project. i think it wasn't easy to be john mccain but here we are talking about him. the top of the fold in the "boston globe" is robert mcfadden's "new york times"

piece, right across the top. that's where he belongs. >> i can't think of three better people to talk to about this or too many other men of the senate that we would be having this kind of a grand conversation about. andrea mitchell, chris matthews, michael beschloss will join me later in the hour, thank you very much. >> thank you. up next, one of senator john mccain's friends from across the aisle, senator amy klobuchar, joins me live.

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>> in a contest as long and difficult this campaign has been, his success alone commands my respect for his ability and perseverance. but that he managed to do so by inspiring the hopes of so many millions of americans who once wrongly believed that they had little at stake or little influence in the election of an american president is something i deeply admire and commend him for achieving. >> senator john mccain has been praised for his ability to reach out to colleagues on both sides of the isle. one of his democrat friends, amy klobuchar of minnesota, joins me now. thank you very much for being here. >> thanks, joy. >> i understand you and your husband were recently in zen th --

sedona, arizona, to visit the mccain family. >> a little over a month ago. he was frail but still his irascible shelf showing grit as he was commenting about various things in the news but we had a few of his books there and he pointed to a sentence and said "that's what matters" and it was a sentence about how the most liberating thing in life is fighting for a cause larger than yourself. and whether it was his decision as a p.o.w. for five years in vietnam, i stood with him in front of that cell where he had been held, an incredible act of patriotism deciding whether that should bes should be released before him whether standing up for immigrants or against torture or his resiliency after the presidential race where instead of just going away he decided to work on international

issues and taught a lot of us what it was like to work with leaders on the world stage. for me the most remarkable moment is something that happened in my state. at the end of a heart fought presidential campaign and when that woman stood up in the rally in minnesota and questioned barack obama's patriotism and his background john mccain just stopped her politely and said, ma'am, that's not true, he's a decent man, a family man. that was john mccain. >> and senator, i think a lot of people, the cynicism that's developed around american politics is because of the extreme partisanship that used to be seen as maybe that's what happens in the house but not the senate but the senate has been overtaken by it so it seems unusual to have these across-the-isle vestships that continue. is john mccain the last of a class of partisan warriors who develop those kinds of

relationships across the aisle? >> it's gotten worse but there are others and he's taught a lot of people how to work with each other, not just work on the world stage. he was the only republican willing to go on the honest ads act, the bill i have that to move forward on making sure that the social media ads are known, where their money is coming from and who is paying for them. it was a major issue in our democracy, he was the one that stood up. so now we'll have to see if anyone else will stands up for our democracy in that way so you will have a number of issues like that, especially ones regarding refugees and immigrants where john mccain was willing to go the extra mile and the hope is he has inspired some of our colleagues on the other side of the aisle to continue in his path. >> and, he was the co-author of the mccain/feingold bill to rein in campaign spending. i want to play a moment that for

democrats was his finest recent hour, that was the moment he gave the thumbs down to the skinny repeal of obamacare. >> i was there. >> mr. peters? >> no. >> no. >> mr. courtland? >> john mccain entered the chamber gesturing to get the attention of the clerk, he was recognized with a thumbs down. he voted no. >> senator mccain kept people in suspen suspense. were you surprised he was a no on that vote? >> well, he had come up to me shortly before and told he he was going to vote no and he told a few otherings that were gathered around there and i know the vice president was still trying to lobby him on it but he stands up for his principles and in this moment in time he decided that he was going to

maintain health care for the people of this country, not get them kicked off for pre-existing conditions and it was another ma rick moment for john mccain and i'm sure a lot of your viewers don't agree with everything he did, that's for sure but when you look at these key moments, he's going to be missed in the senate, especially now when he believed in the power of the senate as a check and balance on this administration, on executive power. >> yeah, and very quickly before we go, there is some talk that chuck schumer has an interest in renaming the russell senate office building after john mccain. is that something you support? that you think has legs in the senate. >> of course and i would hope it would be a bipartisan effort because john mccain for years has had his office in that building. it's the most majestic senate building and i think there would be widespread support, i can't believe there wouldn't be, for naming that building after senator mccain, a fitting

tribute. >> senator amy klobuchar, thank you very much for your time. >> thanks, joy. >> and for your remembrances of senator mccain. coming up next, an update on the hundreds of migrant kids still separated from their parents by the trump administration. and will donald trump fire jeff sessions? more "a.m. joy." stay with us. s pretty amazing o. s pretty amazing o. the world is full of more possibilities than ever before. and american express has your back every step of the way- whether it's the comfort of knowing help is just a call away with global assist. or getting financing to fund your business. no one has your back like american express. so where ever you go. we're right there with you. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. don't live life without it.

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hundreds of migrant children are still separated from their families a full month after the court-ordered deadline for them to be reunified by the trump administration which separated them in the first place. of the 2,654 kids who were taken from their families, 528 remain without their moms and dads. 23 of those children are under the age of six. the parents of at least 343 have been deported without their kids. even those who have been reunified are still traumatized as this heartbreaking video from the aclu demonstrates e aclu d s . >> we plan to stay on this story until they are all given back. up next, trump edges closer

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>> jeff sessions recused himself, which he should haven't done, or he should have told me. even my enemies say that jeff sessions should have told you that he was going to recuse himself and then you would haven't put him in. he took the job and then he said i'm going to recuse myself. i said what kind of a man is this? and by the way, he was on the

campaign. the only reason i gave him the job because i thought loyalty. >> pick a trump biographer and they will tell you for donald trump it's all about loyalty but for those around him that tends to be a one way street. trump bashed his attorney general jeff sessions non-stop, reportedly ridiculing him with cruel nicknames and berating him in public. up until now it seemed like the idea of trump firing sessions in the middle of the mueller probe would be a non-starter for his former republican senate colleagues. well, much like their once-tough stances on russia and whether donald trump was fit to be president, that may be changing. >> the president is entitled to an attorney general he has fate in, somebody qualified for the job and i think there will come a time sooner rather than later where it will be time to have a new face and fresh voice at the department of justice.

clearly attorney general sessions doesn't have 2 confidence of the president and all i can say is that i have a lot of respect for the attorney general but that's an important office in the country and after the election i think there will be some serious discussions about a new attorney general. >> joining me now is "washington post" columnist e.j. dionne, "washington post" opinion writer jennifer rubin and former u.s. attorney joyce vance. i want to play one more sound clip of lindsey graham from july of 2017 and quite a different take that lindsey graham had on the possibility of donald trump firing jeff sessions back then. take a listen. >> this effort to basically marginalize and humiliate the attorney general is not going over well in the senate. if jeff sessions is fired there will be holy hell to pay. >> e.j., what happened?

>> you began the show with these very powerful tributes to john mccain and it's worth remembering that going back it was both john mccain and lindsey graham who said jeff sessions had a problem taking over an investigation where he was going to be the subject. john mccain also very forcefully asked a lot of questions of sessions at a hearing about that meeting with the russian ambassador and lindsey graham's flip is really a metaphor for what's happened to the republican party, that even parts of the party, most of the party had gone over to trump already and there were roots of trumpism in the earlier behavior of republicans but lindsey graham was a holdout and he is no longer a holdout. he has, if i can use the word, flipped and i think that donald trump is looking at this and saying well nixon fired ar archd

cox and got away with it for a while but the substitute name was leon jaworski who was just as serious about the investigation as archibald cox. you can imagine trump feels he can get away from firing sessions and having a toady named, if you will, or a loyalist, to replace mueller and maybe it goes away without real opposition from the republican party. >> jennifer rubin, it's striking because light, joe lieberman and john mccain were thought of as the three amigos. the perception is that lindsey graham, if not john mccain's best friend, one of them, and they used to be simpatico on issues, very hawkish, tough on things like russia and donald trump. but lindsey graham has been overtly a buddy of donald trump lately to the point where he's now saying hey there may be no jeff sessions after the election. and then there's this from politico. republicans saying sessions is

gone after the midterms. if grassley chooses to go to the senate finance committee, lindsey graham would become judiciary committee chairman. graham is close to election for 2020 and being close to trump would help him stave off the primary challenge. are we seeing the triumph of class politics that john mccain said should not be the principle vocation of a senator. >> the most common question i get is what happened to lindsey graham. he seems to be adrift morally, politically since the decline and now the tragic passing of john mccain and it's a metaphor of the spieplessness, lack of principle, lack of concern of the greater good of our democracy and rule of law and for him to intimate well, we'll keep him now but after the election once we pulled the pool over the voter's eyes we deal dump him. since then a few senators have

spoken out and said no, this is going to be a problem. i don't mind if he fires jeff sessions, i mind if he replaces him and if he replaces him i think we have a constitutional crisis on our hands. if he goes, rod rosenstein, would be acting attorney general and that's fine as far as i'm concerned but replacing him with someone who will take over the mueller investigation puts us in the realm of a constitutional crisis. >> and this was jeff sessions responding to the criticism of donald trump and what seemed to be increasing threats to his job and he said while i'm attorney general the actions of the department of justice will not be improperly influenced by political considerations, i demand the highest standards and where they are not met i take action. however no mission has a marital lented and dedicated group of prosecutors more talented group

of prosecutors. so could donald trump fire jeff sessions, put in a flunky who would kill the mueller probe and then where are we? >> attorney general sessions' statement you read was wonderful regarding the men and women at the justice department. it came about a year too late but i'm glad the words came out of his mouth because it is the people in the justice department who are upholding the rule of law and what happens if donald trump gets to replace, as jennifer says, attorney general jeff sessions. under the vacancies reform act which is the law that controls succession, rod rosenstein is his natural successor but the president could replace mr. rosenstein with anyone else who is senate confirmed for a period of time and that's where the devil in the details emerges because that's a large pool of

folks inside and outside of doj but many of those folks might surprise mr. trump as mr. rosenstein apparently did finding their loyalty is to the constitution and not the president, i think that's our hope moving forward in that scenar scenario. >> i think that's the take on christopher wray that trump thought would be loyal to him rather than the constitution. e.j., in your paper, in the "washington post," donald trump has been told, apparently, by aides who have explained to him that firing jeff sessions would not end the mueller probe but he remains livid, officials said, particularly after sessions responded with the statement i just read declaring the actions of the department of justice won't be improperly influenced by political considerations. donald trump doesn't seem to care whether or not this is action that would be effective. he's just angry at jeff sessions and i guess the worry people have is that if donald trump

does something his aides say is irrational, the check is supposed to be there in the senate and if lindsey graham has already down the paul ryan shrug, where are we? >> the problem with trump aides saying anything is trump aides have a pretty short shelf life it seems and when trump doesn't want to listen he won't listen and, again, if you look precisely at what you pointed to which is the lack of any real gumption on the part of the vast majority of republican senators and john mccain is gone now, he probably figures he can get away with this for quite a while and i think trump's method is keep things rolling, hope something turns up, hope your enemies make a mistake and try to get away with as much as you can and in this environment at least for now with republicans having so

much power and such a tendency to cave to trump it's not a crazy calculation on trump's part. >> the likelihood is democrats are not going to -- even if they do well in november, they won't get 67 votes in the united states senate which is what it would take to sustain an impeachment against donald trump, even 23 they took over the house and did impeach him so doesn't he have good faith reason to believe he can get away with anything because if lindsey graham is already say dog what you want, there is nobody standing in his way. >> this is what many of us have been saying for 18 months. the failure to lay down a marker, any marker, any line has encouraged trump to take one more step and then another and then another. they have not voted on the floor of the senate for the amendment that passed the senate judiciary committee to protect the special prosecutor. maybe someone should drag that out of committee. we could use intellectual

courage and testifies of the constitution. >> and joyce if there is no bill passed to protect the mueller investigation, is there a 1-2-3 step that donald trump could take to end it? he seems to think he can step in and run it himself. >> he can try to end it. i think even if he's successful in this limited sense of finding some way to either limit the scope of mueller's investigation or fire mueller himself, he's not banking on the fact that there are prosecutors all over the country ready to pick up that mantle, prosecutors in the southern district of new york demonstrated that this week when they brought michael cohen, the president's long-time lawyer to heal. justice isn't a place for a reality tv star. career confirmed folks who know how to do this will make it work. >> his home state may be his undoing. e.j. and jennifer, we'll be back

with us in our next hour. joyce, thank you. more on the passing of john mccain and a man who donald trump has allegedly called the "n" word will join us. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one.

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amid all the chaos of the trump presidency it's important not to ignore moments of moral leadership. a little good news in these dark times. this week that moment comes from texas congressman a democratic who's running to unseat republican senator ted cruz. but rork's recent take on patritism went viral this week, garnering praise from lebron james and nfl hall of famer curt warner among others. and we'd like to play it for you now in its entirety. ♪ >> i kind of wanted to know how you personally felt about how disrespectful it is, like you had the nfl players kneeling during the national anthems. i wanted to know if you found that disrespectful to our country, our veterans and anybody related to that.

i find it incredibly frustrating that people seem to be okay with that. >> thank you for a great question, again on a really tough issue if we don't talk about is not going to get better. and the question is how do you feel about nfl players who dtak a knee during the national anthem? and is it disrespectful to the flag, to those service members right there tonight in afghanistan and those former service members, retirees with us today, thank you each for your service. my short answer is no, i don't think it's disrespectful. here's my longer answer, and i'm going to try to make sure i get this right because i think it's a really important question. and reasonable people can disagree on this issue. let's begin there. and it makes them no less american to come down on a different conclusion on this issue, right?

you're every bit as american all the same. but i'm reminded, someone mentioned reading the taylor branch book, you did, parting the waters in the king years. and when you read that book and find out what dr. king and this non-violent peaceful movement to secure better because they didn't get full, civil rights for their fellow americans, the challenges that they faced, those who died in philadelphia, mississippi, for the crime of trying to be a man, trying to be a woman in this country, the young girls who died in the church bombing, those who were beaten within an inch of their life crossing the edmund pet s bridge in selma with john lewis and those who were spat upon, dragged out by their collar for switing with white people at the same lunch counter in the same

country where their fathers may have bled the same blood on the battlefields of omaha beach or okinawa or anywhere than anyone ever served this country, the freedoms that we have were purchased not just by those in uniform, and they definitely were, but also by those who took their lives into their hands, the freedom riders in the deep south in the 1960s, who knew full well that they would be arrested, and they were, serving time in the mississippi state p penitentiary. rosa parks getting from the back of the back of the bus, to the front of the bus, and peaceful protesters, by taking a knee to protest black people are being

killed without accountability or justice. they're frustrated, frankly, with people like me and those in positions of public trust and power who have been unable to resolve this or bring justice for what has been done and to stop it from continuing to happen in this country. and so non-violently, peacefully while the eyes of this country are watching these games they take a knee to bring our attention and focus to this problem to ensure that we fix it. that is why they're doing it, and i can think of nothing more american than to peacefully stand up or take a knee for your rights anytime, anywhere, anyplace. so thank you very much for asking the question. >> there's a thing in politics called an x factor. more after the break. x factor more after the break belly fat: the chili pepper sweat-out. not cool. freezing away fat cells

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and you love your life, john? >> oh, yeah, i love my life. i can't tell i've never can't tell for 60 years now i've had the great honor of being loved in the arena, and i've loved every minute of it, the disappointments, up, downs, wins, losses, but no one has ever had the wonderful life i've had, no one i've ever known. >> senator john mccain is being

remembered, as one of the few towering figures left at a time when there are precious few political lions. the arizona senator died yesterday of cancer at age 81. two of them former president's george w. bush and barack obama have been asked to offer eulogies at mccain's funeral. but there will be one notable absence, current president donald trump is not expected to attend mccain's funeral. since the election mccain has become one of the very few republicans in congress to repeatedly push back against trump's rhetoric and actions. joining me now is kairen finny, political analyst and former senior advisor.

he was a fierce partisan, but he also managed to develop really great relationships with people across the aisle. i'll never forget this photo of mccain and hillary clinton sort of laughing and yucking it up. they did have sort of a chummy sort of relationship, right? >> they really did. she called in to "meet the press" actually earlier today to talk about john mccain. you know, i was at the dnc in 2008 when senator mccain ran against barack obama. and one of the things we felt very strongly about was we wanted to make sure we honored the man and his service, and really as he did kind of in the reverse keep that conversation focused on the issues. and certainly there were areas of disagreement. but one of the things about senator mccain i think is part of his legacy he was kind of cur

mud mudgened to everybody. it was not necessarily partisan. i think that's part of the reason why he was able to develop and maintain these solid relationships on both sides of the aisle. when i think about mccain-finegold, or when i think about what senator mccain try today do with senator kennedy on immigration. he was willing to work with whoever was willing to come to the table to find common ground. and that's an incredible legacy and something certainly missed within the white house, but i hope they'll look to senator mccain as a model they should emulate. >> one could think of a few more partisans and bitter times sort of against the impeachment era against bill clinton and yet mccain did emerge out of that era with a relationship with

particularly hillary clinton, was sort of the star coming in. he knew what it was like being focused on by the media and having that star quality. those are only a handful of people who have that star quality now. what do you make of the fact john mccain was able to be fiercely partisan, he voted for trump's agenda, definitely republican, but he managed to have those kind of relationships with his rivals. >> you're right, joy, he voted to impeach bill clinton in the sena senate yet he became friends with not only bill clinton but hillary clinton and praised clinton's work. he was an extraordinary person. the first time i met him was at a white house correspondence dinner. he came up to me to praise my critique of white water on television, which he told me he enjoyed. and he didn't agree with what i

was saying, but he had that spirit of reaching across of friendship, of kindness. he'd spend on hour on the phone with a reporter to talk about other people and issues that weren't going to necessarily benefit him at all. that was his style. he had an innemtable style that really embraced. >> and the rivalry with george w. bush was overcome, the rivalry with the clinton was overcome. it is unusual the ongoing anonymity that according to "the washington post" donald trump carried right to the end, not making a statement about john mccain at all and finally ultimately tweeting his deepest sympathies to the family of john mccain. that went out last night. but notably donald trump is not going to be at that funeral. how unusual is that as a historical fact that the current president of the united states will likely not be at the

funeral of one of the last remaining sort of lions of the senate? >> very unusual, joy. and if you look at john mccain's legacy it's in stark contract to that of donald trump. you played at the top of the last hour, a rally that john mccain attended in 2008 around his presidential campaign in which a woman said she didn't trust president obama, he was an arab. i think she was probably searching for the word muslim, and he said no, ma'am, he's a deeply citizen man who i happen to have disdpreemagreements wit. if you look at the dissent of donald trump he exploited that very thing to put himself in the political spotlight. >> to the end he really did not

get onboard the way some of his colleagues and some of his friends on that side of the aisle of the senate got onboard with trumpism. here's john mccain giving a speech when he received a liberty medal from the constitution center, this in october of 2017 talking about what he called half-baked nationalism. take a listen. >> to fear the world we have organized, to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe, to refuse the obligations of national leadership for the sake of some half-baked spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems, it's as

unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that americans can sign as cheap to history. >> that little hint of a smile he gave at the end when the crowd roared told us everything we needed to know about what he thought of donald trump. donald trump obviously opposed everything he fundmentally agreed with, notably the strength of the western alliance, the importance of human rights. but he was also as different a person and a public figure as you could possibly be from john mccain. this morning i went back to a quotation that john mccain deeply loved and cited from victor frank, a holocaust

survivor. the quotation was everything can be taken from a man, but one thing, the last of human freedom, to choose one attitude's in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. liberals dntd like where he was on the war, they certainly didn't like his choice of sarah palin for vice president, which i think came back to hurt him, conservatives disagreed with him on political money, disagreed obviously with his vote to save obamacare. and yet they knew always that in the end mccain was his own person and he was going to do things the way he thought he should. and by the way, he'd go back and apologize when he thought he did something too political as in supporting the confederate flag in south carolina. he went back during the primary, and he went back and said, look, i did that for votes, i was wrong. there aren't many politicians who do stuff like that. >> yeah, indeed. jennifer, with the passing of

john mccain it does feel like there's a passing of a kind of republican or republican party, i should say that was very much a cold warrior party, the party of reagan. mccain was sort of in that reaganite mold. even some who were hawkish have peeled away, gone towards trumpism or given into it. i'm not sure if you're the one who coined the term helsinki republicans, but he certainly was not one. he said today's press conference in helsinki was one of the most disgraceful performances by an american president in memory. false equivalence and sympathy foradocrats is difficult to calculate but it's clear that the summit in helsinki was a tragic mistake. that could have been a jennifer ruben column. >> it sounded like jennifer. >> it is interesting most republicans have decided they

have to give in to trump, they have to follow him, they have to become his doting admirers. mccabe did not. >> i almost choke on putting those two people in the same sentence, john mccain and donald trump because they are a different species. donald trump is a cowered, is a z xenophobe, selfish, duds not believe there's such a thing as national service, and mccain was not. he was a figure that gave people like me a reason to say i'm a republican because i'm like john mccain. i believe in climate change. i believe in immigration. i believe in a strong presence in the world, i believe in human rights. i can no longer say those things and say that's why i'm a republican because republicans don't believe in that anymore, and that's why people like me, max boot, a whole list of other people have essentially said forget the republican party. a party that is so hostile to the views of john mccain does

not deserve our attention, does not deserve our loyalty. and it is a shame, it is really a violation of everything that we believe in that a major party should follow donald trump down this rabbit hole of racism, of xenophobia, of disrespect for the rule of law. those things that you disagree with john mccain on and i disagree with john mccain on are relatively small. what endures is service to the country, of american freedom, of american democracy, of our responsibility in the world. we are a blessed country and it is our responsibility, our duty to free peoples around the world to support them. while we may have small differences, and they are small in comparison, that is entirely missing in our political structure now and the republican party. it has been an ordeal for many

of us who have been fans of john mccain to see what's happened to our party, and i think it's going to take a lot of people from a lot of different places to make up -- and they will never make up fully for his loss. >> i'm sorry, go ahead, karen. >> i was going to say i think what jennifer just said is so critically important in this moment in our country and our history given who is in the white house. and i hope that as people reflect, particularly republicans reflect on the passing of john mccain, i mean donald trump is not going to change. but republicans and the republican party can absolutely change. they can absolutely look at someone like a john mccain and that legacy and that humanity. again, there was a lot i didn't agree with him on, but they can change and decide that's the direction they want to take their party back in, is to be more like a john mccain and less like trump. there's this choice there, and i hope people reflect on that in this moment.

>> yeah, indeed. and y'all are old enough to remember when republicans denigrated bill clinton for not serving in the war in vietnam. but we've come a long way for someone to denigrate, say mccain is not a war hero and still get the acclimation in the republican party, that's a pretty big art. >> i want to wholeheartedly endorse what jennifer ruben said, and mccain in the same vein, he was not just a war hero, a military man who understood the deepest traditions of the american military and defended them, especially in the moment when the country was violating them in its use of torture against detainees. and john mccain courageously stood up and denounced that in a

tradition that predates george washington, to stand forth as an example of what's right, of human rights, of standing up for humanity. that was an incredible moment in his life. >> and he also continued to oppose gena, the cia director for a long time. and that kind of senator, that kind of stature, in terms of the united states senator, is that style of politician going away, do we still have that in american politics? >> well, i hope not is the answer. we may have a new crop of politicians come into washington who change things. right now it looks like it's fading. when you ask john mccain what his legacy should be he

repeatedly said he served his country. he did and we are the better for it. and part of serving his country was never letting party or self go above country. he always put his country first. that is a noble legacy. >> thank you all very much. really appreciate your time this morning. more after the break. time this morning. more after the break >> tech: at safelite autoglass,

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senator, when you woke up this morning, did you say to yourself where was i 50 years ago? >> you know, i did. and i thought, wow, maybe i zigged when i should have zagged. i thought about it a lot, but i also thought about, tom, about the heroes that i have known and the benefit of having served in the company of heroes. and i am the luckiest guy you will ever talk to. >> john mccain was more than of course a senator but a decorated army veteran and prisoner of war who was tortured at the hands of his captors. >> he was john mccain iii, the son and grandson of u.s. navy admirals but his war was vietnam. in july 1967 the brash young

fighter pilot narrowly escaped death. a massive fire nearly sank the ship, claiming the lives of more than 100 men. just three months later while on his 23rd combat mission mccain's plane was hit by enemy fire. >> yesterday over hunoi three american planes were shot down and at least two of their pilots captured. one was lieutenant john mccain iii. >> i was hit, i was ejected from my airplane, and i was knocked unconscious by the ejection and injured, my arms broken, my legs broken. >> mccain was severely wounded and in shock. the vietnamese denied him medical attention. >> i was dumped in a dark cell and left to die. >> and thain they realized his

propaganda value. >> when they discovered my father was an admiral they took me to a hospital. they couldn't set my bones properly so they just slapped a cast on me. >> a french film crew was summoned to document the pows good treatment. but mccain refused to cooperate with his captors even when he was offered the opportunity to go home. >> our code said we could only go home in the order of our capture, and there were men who would been shot down long before me. >> it would cost him two years in solitary confinement. >> there were severe beatings, broke my arms. at times i wasn't in good physical shape anyway and it made it much worse. >> he would once break during an interrogation and he would attempt suicide. in all john mccain would spend 5

snf years as a prisonerner of war. released in 1973 he finally returned home forever shaped by his experience but never bitter. years later as a senator working with two presidents he played a key role in restoring relations with vietnam. >> it's very important for us to recognize that the war is over. >> john mccain not only survived vietnam, he made peace with the past. >> i put the vietnam war behind me a long time ago. i harbor no anger, no rancor. i'm a better man for my experience and i'm grateful for having had the opportunity of serving. >> his heros, he always said were his fellow pows, his fellow americans. >> i fell in love with my country when i was a prisoner in someone else's. i loved it because it was not just a place, but an idea, a

cause worth fighting for. i was never the same again. i wasn't my own man anymore. i was my country's. >> harry smith, nbc news, new york. >> joining me now is msnbc military analyst jack jacobs can count terrorism nance. colonel jack jacobs, your thoughts on the passing of john mccain. >> well, there's a big gap now in leadership. he was the kind of person everybody could rely onto be sensible about things, start at the end and work backwards, think about what the objective is first before you allocate resources. he was the kind of person who taught us a very important and productive way of looking at things, and that is that you can't do anything about yesterday. the only thing you can work on is tomorrow, and you have to dedicate yourself to improving

the future, fulminating about the past gets you absolutely nowhere. and i think he taught that to all. >> you know better than most vietnam was such a divisive issue it washed through our politics through the 1990s, the question on whether you stood for the war, opposed the war, whether you got deferments, it used to be the issue in politics. john mccain someone who a pow for four years, worked with carry. he was able to overcome his own personal history but the anxiety about the vietnam war. >> they're both serious about where we're headed, what does it take to get to where we want to go. and one of things that comes immediately to mind was the fact

that the war in vietnam was very much different than the other wars we had fought. particularly the second world war, where everybody, every household had made a commitment to defend the republic. i grew up in a neighborhood in new york city where i don't remember a single solitary friend of mine whose father had not been in the war. 20 years later when we were fighting in vietnam it was a selective war. if you were going to college you didn't have to go to war. if you were married you didn't have to go to war. we were very -- we had selective service, and we were very selective about who we picked. therefore, there was not this common experience that we had in the second world war. and the people who served became relatively isolated from the rest of the republic. john mccain's view about all of that was that was a bad thing to do, that was a bad place to go and tried very, very hard and

was successful in changing people's attitudes about what service to country really meant. >> to the navy man now, malcolm nance, your thoughts on the passing of john mccain. >> i'm heartbroken. i had a pretty rough night earlier as you know, said some tough things on twitter. but i'm a navy man, i'm a chief. i met john mccain and the first thing i said to him i was so excited and i'm a chief, i'm a senior chief. and he goes everything i learned in the navy i learned from a chief. and when i wast a survivor school in coronado i had red his pink classified debrief, and that man was treated horribly, he was tortured mercilessly. admiral stockdale would come into the school, just wonder in and talk about how john mccain was thrown into a hole in cal

cutta, and they called those people tigers because they would go in there, and in these horrible conditions of captivity, he survived the forestal fire, the single mass conflageration and john mccain was literally in the middle of that explosion as airplanes were splashing around him. this man is a giant not just in the u.s. navy. thank god he will be buried next or near john paul jones. >> i'll tell you next if you asked him he would say he failed. and he failed because although everybody says i'm going to resist, i'm going to ekoo keep resisting and they're not going to get anything from me, in the end he was broken. and he was broken because everybody breaks at one point. and everybody -- malcolm knows

and i knew who were a part of that, general boyd and gym stockdale, and everybody else in the tour all said that john mccain was the bravest guy they had ever met. notwithstanding that john mccain had extremely high standards for his own deportment and thought that he had failed but he hadn't failed. >> it wasn't about breaking. it was about honor. and this is what we're missing today, why we're all sad. we're now in a period where we're devoid of honor. someone has to stand up, others have to stand up to take this nation's honor back. and john mccain is gone and now you have a role model for that. >> we feel very strongly about him and what he left behind. >> absolutely. and that comes through. thank you both.

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coming up, team trump tries yet again to distance itself from michael cohen. stay with us. ay with us you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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to stretch and make a reporting violation, which so many campaigns have, to make a conspiracy out of that when the law itself says the treasurer is responsible, not the candidate is an example of precisely what we're seeing, trying to stretch the law to fit somebody who many americans hope and want to see commit a crime or commit an impeachable offense.

>> law professor allen dershowitz this morning. well, jill, it's interesting. let me play a little bit more of what allen dershowitz had to say. because while he backed up donald trump on the campaign finance charge, this is what he said about the other investigation, the one that's taking place in the southern district of new york. take a listen. >> well, i said that right from the beginning because i think he has constitutional defenses to the investigation being conducted by mueller. but there are no constitutional defenses to what the southern district is investigating, so i think the southern district is the -- is the greatest threat. look, it would be good for the american public if president trump sat down and said everything he knows, but it wouldn't be good for president trump. >> wouldn't be good for trump. your thoughts on that, jill-wine banks.

>> well, we finally found something i might agree with allen dershowitz on, i quantity believe it. but it won't be good for him because he has done so many things in plain sight i can only imagine how much damaging information robert mueller's team has. the investigation into russian interference has led us to a point where the president has covered up and obstructed justice in plain sight. and i don't agree with allen dershowitz on the campaign violation because there's degrees of violation. if you have a paperwork mistake that's one thing. if you are making a deliberate decision as the candidate to not let something be reported, then it's a different thing. and especially when it's being done to cover-up a different crime. so i don't think we can agree with him on everything, but i do agree that the southern district

poses an existential threat to this presidency as does the two recent immunities because we have immunized people who know a great deal about donald trump, not just his campaign violations, not just his errors as a candidate but also in business, all the business crimes that he may have committed, they know about. >> you know it's interesting, jennifer, that we have a situation here where donald trump doesn't necessarily seem to be in any impeachment trouble, and i'm going to play a sound bite to back it up in a minute. because the republicans have made it clear he can do whatever he wants and they're not going to touch him. but even the democrats seem reluctant to be on the record about even being interested in impeachment. this is eric swalwell who's been as tough on trump as anyone talking about should democrats gain control of the investigation because they gain control of the house. take a listen. >> i think we don't have enough evidence yet. we would bring in michael cohen

and mr. weisselberg and mr. pecker to interview them. again, we don't want to be as reckless with the facts as he is. i think having thorough investigations, putting firth an inpenetrable case to the american people is the proper way to do this. but we're not there yet. >> could you envision a scenario where donald trump's real jeopardy is not because he gets impeached because democrats are are reluctant to hand him that, but the real threat is his businesses go down the drain because the southern district of new york and new york prosecutors go after him including after he's out of office? >> absolutely. the most dangerous thing for donald trump, i think even more so than michael cohen was the immunity deal with the cfo, who is going to unlock the mystery of donald trump's company. remember we don't have his tax returns. all of this fluff, all of this hype, we really don't know what has gone on inside the company.

and we're going to find out pretty soon, i think. i would also say this about allen dershowitz. he's so wrong, so misguided. i don't know why he does this other than to get on television. but understand what donald trump did. he authorized his lawyer to intentionally leave out of campaign finance reporting a pay-off to two women so that that information would not come before the american people before he was elected. because donald trump himself thought that might be the difference between winning and losing. in other words, he created a crime -- he committed a crime in order to win the presidency. that is unprecedented, and by the way that is exactly what the founders did not want.

boy, you can't fire the southern district of new york. >> right, you can't pardon your way out of it, either. jill, i think that's a point that should not be missed, because michael cohen not only admitted to committing a crime, he basically made the president of the united states an unindicted coconspirator in that crime. so it is a little bit shocking thal we're talking past impeachment, right, that it seems unlikely that is what it going to be the fate of this president. >> well, it says a lot about what has happened to the absence of bipartisanship and truth in america, that we are not talking about impeachment. but having said that, i agree with eric swalwell. i think that he made a very good point. impeachment requires not just that you get 60 votes for conviction in the senate, but that the american people support it. and at this point we don't quite have that. yes, all of the democrats in the

world and most independents would agree that that's the right thing because they see the crimes, but i think we need to have all republicans, at least those who are thinking republicans get to that point. it would be sort of like the juror paula duncan who said i'm going to vote for him again because i think this is witch hunt, but, yes, i voted for 18 counts of conviction of paul manafort because the evidence was there. i believe that all of the paula do duncans in the rpen party if they have a hearing and sees the witnesses, that they will judge this as a juror, and they will view the facts and say, oh, my gosh, we can't have a man of this kind running our government. he is corrupt, he is a criminal, he has committed crimes. can yes, the first step was michael cohen saying in court under oath that he had been acting to commit a crime at the

direction of the president of the united states. >> or if they blame donald trump for having tanked in the mid-terms and they decide he's a political liability. let me play one sound bite off this topic. hillary clinton was on "meet the press" this morning and talked about john mccain's passing. she hit on the point we're kind of talking about here, about the division in the country and having john mccain passing in this particular moment. take a listen. >> our institutions are being severely tested right now, including his beloved senate. and he was in every way he knew how trying to sound the alarm. >> you know, jennifer, it does feel like the senate has sort of become the house and that john mccain was sort of the last remaining ones to keep the senate the senate or keep it above that kind of rank partisanship and pure

partisanship. is there any wrestling the senate back from that, especially when something as grave as impeachment from majorities president or majority partens member in the presidency is on the table? >> you're right, it has become like the house and in one very important respect. we're going through a supreme court fight right now that's not going to be determined by getting 60 votes. they're acting like the house, a sheer power play, which is how the house operates. as far as i think the future of the senate and this issue goes, hillary clinton is right. we are now governed by midgets, by moral midgets. and there's no one i think who at least on the republican side is willing to take the reigns. the more people you vote out, the quicker they'll come out. they're unfit to rule, unfit to govern and i think they have the be beaten.

>> jill winebanks rocking the pin, and coming up at the top of the hour, new polling on trump and russia-gate. but up next former apprentice contestant jackson is here, he joins me to talk trump and race. e joins me to talk trump and race. fact is, there are over ninety-six hundred roads named 'park' in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?

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do you think john kelly's racist? >> oh, yeah. i mean, john kelly thought the civil war was about compromise. it wasn't about compromise, general john kelly. it was about slavery. >> there is no love lost between omarosa and the trump white house. she also shared in her new book and on "a.m. joy" that donald trump uses the "n" word and there is train to prove it. the race continues. joining me is a leadership strategist and former contestant on "the apprentice." you were overseas on a significant trip in nice and europe. >> i was, visiting the warsaw ghettos. >> you were getting texts and e-mails including from myself. >> it's the juxtaposition of the craziness. the warsaw craziness, i visited auschwitz and i'm getting texts about omarosa and the "n" word

and that buffoonery. crazy time. >> the sad thing about the current state of the country is if, in fact, a tape surfaced with donald trump using the "n" word supposedly about you, were to surface, it isn't clear that would hurt him politically. >> it does not move the needle and i talked about this. xenophobia, racism, homophobia, those used to be disqualifying factors. >> the polling shows that -- a plurality of americans believe that donald trump is racist. >> yes. >> you polled them. they say, yes. i think donald trump is racist. do you think he emboldened people with racist believes? the majority say yes. the majority of democrats, overwhelmingly. the majority of independents say, yes, he did, but at the same time you're starting to see a movement. larry sabado highlighted the fact that americans must believe they must protect and their

white and european heritage. >> people have been backed into a corner and people are scared and they are using the economic anxiety button and saying that's not racism, and we see the manifestation of that and we look at things like the passing of john mccain. god bless him and the traditional statesman and we juxtapose that against the mud wrestling and the jell-o shots that is omarosa and it's a low point for our american time. >> what happened to the trajectory? john mccain started out as somebody who was against the mlk holiday, something he later regretted and he expressed regrets for not coming out in opposition to the confederate flag early on, changed his mind on that. he had a personal arc on race, and we're seeing it pushed the over direction. >> he is no saint and i don't agree with all of to his principl principles, but he is a great statesman. i visited the hanoi hilton, and saw the instruments of torture and the degradation he was kept

in, and to be able to stand against that for 5 1/2 years, that is automatic hero status. that is automatic statesman status, and the ability to put kind of policy and party aside and really stand for the betterment of america. >> you have been in proximity to donald trump. you know that the level of his charisma is significant. that's how he became a tv star, and he is politically successful. obviously. >> mm-hmm. >> how does did country wrench itself back from a trump moment to a more mccain moment? >> it's funny. i use this that it has gone more ckardashian than kennedy, and w have to start to reel ourselves back in. >> how? how do we do that? >> we unplug for one. we stop listening to the same echo chambers of craziness. we start to get involved in our communities and understand that the issues are around your front door. sweep around your own front porch first and find the truth again, and find the middle ground we can agree upon. that's the beginning of a

dictatorship, and the place we don't want to go as a nation. >> you were staunchly opposed to donald trump becoming president. you came out with other members of the staff and said, he is racist. >> we reached out to the entire cast. this is just the folks who chose to lead in that moment. everyone else will be judged. >> omarosa made another decision and decided to go with him. do you think she is now in a position to help bring us back that she has decided she is part of the resistance? >> i will never bring her back into the personal fold. i would say give her a pass back to the barbecue. >> you're not inviting her to the cookout. >> give her a plate, but she can't stay. >> in the car. >> she can have it in the car. potato salad in the car, but you can't stay for the ribs and the fun times. if she happens to have the goods on the president, then, you know, more power to her. that does not absolve her from being an active participant. >> you have been very vocal and intend to keep speaking out? >> i am. i think leadership is a moment,

and i think my moment has come and i think my moment has come again where you can raise the consciousness of the country and use your platform no matter how small or large to elevate the conversation and elevate people's views around race, around patriotism and things like john mccain. >> put yourself on the meter. hopeful or pessimistic? >> i'm always a little optimistic. glass half full. >> i appreciate that. good to talk to you. >> thank you. >> more "a.m. joy" after the break. e "a.m. joy" after the break. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it?

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