that does it for us. "morning joe" starts right now. the president in no way, form or fashion has ever promoted or encouraged violence of anything. quite the contrary. >> i'll tell you what, this man has fought in more ways than one for your sake. he has fought for your state. greg gianforte is a fighter and a winner. he's a winner! >> the score, waiting for your decision about health care and the bill just came out, we'll talk to you about that later. speak with shane, please. >> all right, but -- >> i'm sick and tired of you guys! the last guy that came in here you did the same thing. get the hell out of here! get the hell out of here.

the last time you did the same thing. you with "the grauardian." >> you just body slammed me and broke my glasses. >> i mean a fighter and a winner if you're talking about beating up reporters. >> that's just not right. >> assault charges. didn't he get assault charges. >> terrible. and that guy behind the president was removed because he wasn't clapping. you must clap! good morning, everyone. president trump last night praising the montana congressman who pleaded guilty last year to physically assaulting a reporter on the eve of the election. he's a fighter. >> yeah. not really. welcome to "morning joe." >> i noticed you guys aren't clapping hard enough. >> it's friday. >> exactly. >> september 7th. >> oh, boy. >> among joe, willie and me, national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heilemann in a loud shirt and columnist and associate editor for the "washington post" david ignatius. elegant. >> elegant. >> a lot to talk about.

it's a whodunit in the white house. this person who was the anonymous author of the op-ed. >> i'm not listening to you. >> this person is creating a big buildup. >> nobody cares about donald trump right now. come on. >> there he is. >> there he is. >> he was a big deal. >> jupiter, florida, is -- >> amazing. >> when you saw the reaction of the women folk. >> the women folk, yes. >> to burt reynolds in playgirl magazine, did you not think you wanted to grow up to be burt reynolds? >> oh, yeah. >> you know you did. >> you wanted to be the bandit. >> we were hearing you coming in here. >> because you're so loud. >> and you -- i think you need to do it, whenever i called you. i told you, about burt reynolds. >> he broke the news to me yesterday about burt reynolds passing. >> surprising. >> yeah. >> sort of like, where you were you when you heard about pearl harbor. >> where are you, you "sum

bitch". >> wow. >> immediately went to jackie gleason in "smokey and the bandit." >> first hour of the morning. not until later in the morning. >> and 90 movies, 300 television start, how he got his start. on "deliverance." >> i saw that. >> "smokey and the bandit." i'm trying to figure this out. my parents, strict southern baptists, go to church four times a week. we'd go sunday morning, we'd go sunday night to trading union, tuesday night bible study, wednesday -- friday night sometimes family night, but somewhere in the middle of all that when i was 9 years old my father took my brother and sister and i to "the longest yard." >> wow. at 9 years old? >> and when i went back to school in meridian, mississippi, and told them that i saw r-rated "the longest yard" i was the

coolest kid in school for about 15 minutes. >> you wonder what the -- the defining influences were on the man who will one day be your husband, mika? >> it warped me. it warped me bad. no. you know, but, you know what? the thing is -- he filled this really interesting place in american popular culture. it's hard for people now to remember. he was extraordinarily huge. >> huge, yeah. >> and nowhere is about him. he was just -- a fun guy, but -- sort of -- sort of became, i don't know a parody, self-parody later, but then in '97, he did "boogie nights" and suddenly -- kind of like when travolta went back and did "pulp fiction." suddenly people looked at burt reynolds and said, man that guy can act. >> you know, i was reading an interview with him last night and he said after "boogie

nights" he realized he should have taken his acting more seriously. wait a minute. i'm pretty good in this stuff. "dr "deliverance." then "smokey and the bad it" caper movies and came back after a down period and did "biggy nights." he was great. >> in that period joe was talking about, the "smokey and the bandit" period, he was omnipresent on movie screens. two or three movies in the multiplex at the same time. he was everywhere. >> burt reynolds was the world's highest grossing movie star back in the '80s and iconic roles. really iconic roles. >> and an "snl" parody of burt reynolds. >> joey's favorite.

>> the gum-smacking detachment cool of burt reynolds, he turned down roles. he turned down james bond. >> what? >> he turned down hans solo. >> michael corleone. >> sounds kind of -- >> "one flew over the cuckoos nest." >> turned down every great role. >> turned down "die hard," and actually wanted him to be "morning burt" decided to turn it it down. best decision he made. >> incredible. >> a great quote i read in one of the obits of burt reynolds was, you know, i always said that i'd rather win a heisman than an oscar. >> yeah. >> i was lying. >> almost got there with "boogie nights." >> almost got there. >> but robin williams beat him out. >> so you know, i think you're the only person your age, mika. >> i know. >> that never saw "smokey and

the bandit." just for you, this is jackie gleason looking for "smokey and the bandit." >> where are you, you sum bitch? >> i'm right here at the bottom, 6 foot with a little pygmy right bead beside me. you can't miss me. >> 10/4. >> i'm too good a man. i can't lie to you. look over your left shoulder. we're on our way to boston to get some clam chowder. bye-bye! >> so you see who's sitting in the back seat? >> jerry reid. >> aim miss moses, man. >> incredible basset hound in the movies named fred who had cheeseburgers and he did all the music. pounded down huge hit country songs. >> oh, my god. >> that was the number one movie in america for about four

months, then. it was a gargantuan film. >> preacher went a hunting on a sunday morning -- >> what does it mean when you only one i saw was "deliverance." let's move on. the life of burt reynolds. we have our own very special way of remembering things here on "morning joe." >> yes, we do. >> let's get to more news now. the white house continues the hunt for the anonymous administration official behind that scathing "new york times" op-ed. whodunit? >> what did donald trump say last night? when he was looking for -- the anonymous op-ed writer? >> oh, my god. >> the quote, if you will. >> do we have it? >> this is so good. listen to him. >> he doesn't have it. >> jackie gleason! i just -- wow. you sum bitch! right down the middle of the plate. >> i whiffed on that one. >> wow, alex. sorry. >> the "times" reports that white house officials have been calling around asking cabinet

secretaries if they're responsible. really? you guys have really maybe better things to do? just asking. it helps build up the big reveal that is taking donald trump at his own game. so far one cabinet official issued a denial. everyone with the exception of chief of staff john kelly, and attorney general jeff sessions, referred nbc news to the statement from sarah sanders that calls the anonymous official a coward. sanders also denies reports that aides are printing out and delivering the denials to the president directly. my god. she posted the phone number to the "new york times" opinion desk and urged people to call in and demand the paper to reveal the writer. senator rand paul reportedly recommended members of the administration be subjected to lie detector tests and -- what's happened to rand paul? >> by the way, rand paul missed mr. civil libertarian. >> and a principal.

>> haul them down and strap them in. take the test. >> there was at least some discussion among the president's advisers, also reportedly discussed asking senior to sign sworn affidavits that could be used in court if necessary. one outside reporter says the white house has a list of about 12 suspects. >> willie, let's talk about that. talked about it yesterday. if you're the "new york times" and the editor and somebody comes to you with something like this, that's this significant. it can't be an assistant to an assistant at the national economic council. it's got to be the vice president or it's got to be nikki haley, or it's got to be the sec def or -- there's only seven other eight officials that the "new york times" should ever grant -- right? can we expect if it's not -- they're not going down -- i know

linda mcmahon denied it yesterday, but they're not -- you would hope the "times" would say it's either mattis or kelly or, you know -- keep it pretty tight. >> the term they used again was senior official in the trump administration. not senior white house official. so that sort of broadens it out a little more than the people you're talking about who are that close to the president on a daily basis. but, yeah. i think, you know, if they're going to try to go find this person, and they feel like they haven't found them yet, when you look at that list of 27 people, it starts to look like, if you believe all of these denials, it may not be one of those headliners we're talking about. you wonder, and the editors of the "new york times" were asked on their own podcast the daily yesterday if they could nair rr it down. what does it mean to name a senior official and wouldn't do that because they felt would be too revealing. the answer we may not know for a very long time, john, who this

person s. iis. >> i'm with joe. the piece of reporting that's new in this piece, assertion, early stage of the administration cabinet officials discussing invokes the 25th amendment. any cabinet person would be in a position to know about that. the times because of the gravity probably not extend an nomt ano discussions of that kind. you're talking about logically someone who's a principal. whether a cabinet member, senior white house official, not casting suspicion on someone like head of the nec, the nsc. logically, someone that senior and comport with the notion, have to be someone that senior to reliable assert those kinds of discussions had taken place in the administration nap wouldn't be a junior official at

the veterans affairs department that would be in no position to know about those things. >> you certainly would hope not. you would hope it would you one of eight or nine top officials. david, heard quite a few people saying the real news isn't who wrote it but the fact 1,000 people in the administration could have wrote it. if you had been in washington, d.c. as you have and we have a good bit since donald trump was sworn into office, this sort of talk, very loosely in elite circles of policy leaders and officials and journalists from day one. >> i think that's really the one message. it's that although we have a list of denials, the very fact that it's known that there are many, i'd say a half dozen or more, people who have doing what this op-ed describes, have been trying to steer policy in a way that it wouldn't be damaged by the whims and impulsive

decisions of the president. that tells us that the phenomena in the piece, whatever the controversy about who wrote it, is real. and i think that -- in that sense it underlines something we sort of knew but it just drives it home. trump's rage at this is in part of rage against the government he has understood i think for months that he doesn't fully control. >> yeah. >> and the -- i think the question is how much damage this crazy period bob woodward's book quoted somebody as calling it crazytown, in -- living in crazytown after a while gets exhausting and that's what washington felt like this week. you go outside, to play tennis last night, somebody was screaming, who wrote the piece! it was like, people are obsessed with this game, people are making bets with bookies, one online bookie said he'd had more than, like, $5,000 wagered on

the names of who my have written this op-ed. what a crazy situation. the question, how are we going to get out of that? >> yeah. >> that book, by the way, reports that mike pence is the odds on favorite. >> ah, mike pence who talked about the president's extraordinary leadership yesterday. it's kind of hard to watch. go ahead, john. >> one last thing to willie's point. the point you made conditional. if denials are to be believed we all know that denials of this kind in washington are utterly worthless. i mean, we have watched how much people that have said, have we seen in their career, i am not running for president, serve out my term and then they're running for president two weeks later. in this white house in particular, this white house, more promiscuous with the truth than anyone we've covered, i don't take any of those seriously. not a single one. >> the denials are incredibly important. the list of denials issued

already whether compelled by the president or voluntarily put out. look at this. now, david writes in the "washington post" a piece about surviving crazytown. frankly, look at that long list of denials, david, it's probably very possible that the president is looking at that list, and is extremely disoriented himself, because those are all the people that felt they had to issue a denial. so those are all the people who it could have been. which means his entire white house basically doesn't believe in him, thinks he's crazy, does not think that he's able to do his job and now the president himself knows it, because they had to issue denials. >> and the president is saying he can only trust his children now. >> wow. where are they on the list? you know -- what about melania. really? you know, it's just -- it's an amazing situation. the president, i'm sure, is

going to brood and stew, and the fact that all of those people basically the entire top rank of his administration felt compelled to issue a statement. it wasn't me. i didn't do it. just shows you an administration in some disarray. now that the way in which business has been managed, it kind of -- you know, wait until after the tweet. wait for the actual order. you know? don't rush into doing things, just because the president made a comment. now that that's been outed. >> yep. >> what's going to happen? and i have a feeling that you'll see just as -- people rushing to put their names on a list, people rushing to show any whim of the president, yes, sir, got it. right on that. and that could change the character of the way the government works. not for the better. >> i agree. >> and i think that's really going to be an interesting question going forward. >> you know, david, it's interesting, though, that the first bit of foreign policy news we get after these revelations

is that actually the president is going to do what everybody in the foreign policy community believes he needs to do, and he's going to commit to keeping our limited number of troops and our presence in syria as a bu bulwark against russia, against isis, against the assad regime. you've been out there. talk about what an important move that is. >> joe, this really is important. our military in syria has been, i don't want to say pleading. the military doesn't plead, but they have believed deeply that we would give up hard-line strategic advantage by pulling these troops out. every presidential statement, ah, what do we need this? has distressed our special

forces in particular who are in syria, and there is now a new policy and it does have clarity's they chose one. most respected diplomats in the last 15, 20 years, jim jeffrey to run it. career straight department officer. they are sending very clear signals to the russians, the turks, the saudis, the iranians maybe most important, the united states is going to play its hand differently, and this period of kind of, let's get out of dodge. this isn't matter, that seems to be matter, at least for now. there's an example of good policy being made, being made by a group contrary to the president's initial instincts. he didn't want to do it but was talked into doing it and officials are saying, jim jeffrey says specifically in the "washington post" i'm confident that this policy has the support of the president of the united states. other stories making head lines. defense secretary jim mattis is in afghanistan on an unannounced visit.

mattis along with general joseph dunford are meeting with army general scott mill here took over as commander of nato troops in afghanistan on sunday. president trump has yet to visit troops fighting in afghanistan, nor has he visited any soldiers in a combat zone ever. also making news, this november, americans could elect more than 100 women to the house for the first time in history. a race by race analysis shows between 30 and 40 new women are poised to enter the house next january. that would shatter the previous record of 24 set in 1992's year of the woman. currently there are 61 female democrats and 23 female republicans serving in the house. also another big story, officials in five states are investigating decades worth of sexual abuse claims in the catholic church. attorneys general in illinois, missouri, nebraska, new mexico and new york asked local diocese for their records in an effort to unearth cases potentially covered up by the church. the move follows an explosive

pennsylvania grand jury report that detailed more than 1,000 victims accusing priests of abuse. we will follow that. still ahead on "morning joe," rudy giuliani confuses the conversation about whether or not the president will answer bob mueller's questions. we'll get to that, plus cory booker looks for a moment during yesterday's supreme court confirmation hearings. >> what was that? >> hmm. >> this is about the closest i'll ever have in my life to "i am spartacus" moment. >> yeah. >> orrin hatch weighed in, you know, i knew spartacus. >> he was doing the whole spartacus thing, willie, saying, i don't care if i get kicked out of the senate, i am -- we're going to get this information out. it's against all the rules. he got the information out, and then -- they're like, yeah, you asked us to do it last night and we released it. >> the documents were cleared wednesday night. >> cleared wednesday night.

>> all right. let's go to -- >> are you spartacus? bill, are you spartacus? >> i am spartacus. >> oh! you're spartacus. >> really? >> he's spartacus. >> bill karins with the forecast. bill? >> remember last year, guys, harvey, irma, marie, horrific hurricane season. this year not that named storm to remember forever. there's a chance frorlorence co be that storm. not set in stone but getting into the time people should get into preparations on east coast. the track of florence. right now a tropical storm don't care about intensity. six, seven days away from the east coast. the path south of bermuda major category 3 and a forecast path looks like it's heading towards eastern north carolina. at that point it could head further north or could head towards the coast. it's not going to get set in stone at least another three to four days. bottom line is now the european model has it towards the carolinas. the american model closer to the mid-atlantic and into new england. everybody has to make sure you

have your hurricane supplies for the middle of next week just in case you need it from southern new england all the way down to the coast and we'll narrow that cone as we go throughout the weekend and into next week. a major story obviously next week. today we're watching flash flooding. 27 million people. be prepared. illinois, indiana into the ohio valley, you are going to get drenched as much as five to seven inches. everyone else in the way, d.c. and cooler finally in areas of new england. we don't know exactly where florence is going to hit, but it will look like to have an impact on the east coast. a time frame of wednesday to friday during next week. keep that in mind for travel plans. somebody have cruise plans changed because of that impending storm. we'll be right back here with more on "morning joe." ♪

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so we were just sitting around talking. >> wow.

>> first of all discovered a couple interesting thing. one, mika brzezinski, who is cultural illiterate. >> no. >> actually shocked us all. >> pop culture illiterate. she knows high culture. >> high culture, of course. ballet, opera. >> but doesn't like shakespeare. >> stop. >> i had to memorize it so many times. >> doesn't like "star wars" but is going to her mom's show tonight. high culture. sculptor. >> loves that. >> in washington, d.c. >> we learned two things. number one, mika is a huge wkrp -- >> "wkrp in cincinnati." my favorite show. my office is closed. you may not -- please. stay out of my office. >> talking about burt reynolds. >> door's closed. >> led us to this -- >> and alex, if you can get clips when -- >> i tried to make my hair like -- >> thanksgiving, push the turkeys out of the helicopter promotional and didn't realize -- >> when i think of this group i

think of you as the doctor johnny fever and you as the -- you as the fly trap of the show. >> wasn't he on -- >> i loved "wkrp cincinnati." >> and "fernwood" a great show! >> oh, my -- >> jodonny is here. >> scandalous even today. >> and the number two, the other thing we figured out around here that doesn't really matter, who figured out who's anonymous. >> who wrote the op-ed. >> do you want to reveal, john heilemann. i thought it was somebody else but you guys convinced me, i was wrong. >> credit where credit is due. charlie on "esquire" suggested his wife detected a feminine -- >> perspicacious. >> what is she? >> perspicacious, detected a feminine tone in the op-ed and suggested, suggested it was kellyanne conway and i had not

even contemplated that. more in the dan coats mode at the outset. the more you think about it, makes some sense. very cagey. the kind of person who would find out that mike pence used the word load star and put it in to try to pit it on mike pence and if you think about the double act doing with her husband, trying to set herself up to the be carville and madeleine of the future, the kind of person who would want to come out after trump failed and say you know what? i was working on the inside the whole time. >> and evidence, ends of the campaign, she would, in the green room, around the set, talking about how she couldn't wait for the campaign to be over. like her summer abroad. >> in daytona beach. doing the show with you on the break. she said, what are you doing? it's a vacation at daytona beach. like being on the beach with all the kids is how crazy this is. >> i agree. who is cunning and clever enough to use the word, a pence word to

throw people and who in the post-trump administration has most to lose? all go back to political words. >> alternative facts. >> if you are somebody who wants to be on television, in the communications world whatnot, you really have to re-invent yourself. mike pompeo does not have to re-invent himself. >> the way to do it and you need that mind-set. >> look at others that have left the white house. >> yeah. >> except for one or two. >> uh-huh. >> they ain't working in washington anymore. they've destroyed their reputations. they might as well go back home, because no administration will ever hire them again. >> and that two-year thing earlier about junior staffers. that doesn't make that much sense is because it takes a lot of sophistication to go to the "new york times" execute this, communications skill, can write, knows their way around the "new york times" and media makes sense. another piece of evidence, have somebody pull he denial yesterday which is -- which is not in the category of denials

where she's trashing the person. it's a -- it's a denial, but it's a pretty soft denial. >> john heilemann? >> you can make the case for a lot of slashy big names. i maintained based on some conversations i've had that it's a name that is not a household name. somebody you wouldn't recognize if you heard but holds some power within the trump administration, but not a household name. >> that would be a problem. >> i think you're wrong about kellyanne. >> you say conversations, random people on the street? >> no, no. people who may be familiar. all speculation, unless you're one of the three, four editors at the "new york times," you don't know. >> you think our idle speculation is just that? it's not kellyanne. >> respectfully, i do. >> and john, the door is closed now donny is going to speak. >> and i want to bring one thing up a lot of people complaining

about an nom itnomity. played right boo what trump does, pick up his gun. of course, i mocked them in a meeting last week, blah, blah, blah. i don't have a problem with an n nom -- annomity, "new york times" will have a lot of explaining to do. i'm farcest from that at the "new york times," i would want in my pocket when fanned it comes out that it's a name we've heard. >> and associate editor of the "washington post" and political analyst eugene robinson. you've won the pulitzer, we bow to you. >> we defer to you. >> we defer to you. it better be one of the top seven, eight officials around donald trump or the "new york times" has made a terrible

mistake here. >> well, you know, i agree with you on that. it really should be somebody really high ranking, if you're going to grant an nom knitanomi that. i wouldn't -- personally, if i've been an editor i wouldn't let a junior person make that sort of assertion. >> yeah. >> i think that the kellyanne theory is interesting. i've been more in the coates cacoates -- coats camp. i agree with donny, anonymity added than took away from the impact of the piece. again it would have been about the person. it would have been about the writer. and also, nothing would have happened. i mean, if this valleyreally is

person helping save us from donald trump's worst impulses every day, i think that's not a bad thing to continue. just to add two other quick things. one, obviously i am the venus fly trap of the show. i just -- i'm just not standing for that. okay? >> we'll give you that. >> and the other thing is, i do want to grill willie a bit more, and i don't think we should let him off the hook, about his conversations with persons who might know something about who anonymous, that anonymous person is. tell us more, willie? >> gene, speculative so i'm not going to talk about them on tv and it's not somebody i don't think with direct knowledge but somebody who's done some hunting and talked to a bunch of people that if i can nail it down i certainly will report it immediately. >> gene, though, in terms of the "new york times" decision, even if it's not a top-level person

but it's senior, but maybe not one of the, you know, household names, would it also be an argument to go ahead and print it, if that person provided evidence that there were top-level people who were involved in this sort of group effort to contain this presidency? >> absolutely. >> it's not the end of the world if the person isn't a household name as long as they've really brought to the table the facts and they can be multiple sources? >> well, that's true, but then you really have a burden to assure yourself, if you're an editor, that this isn't all true. right? >> absolutely. >> so that the two big assertions are, number one, that the 25th amendment discussions and number two, that there is this sort of organized group of

officials who are working in concert to thwart, you know, to keep us from disaster. >> right. >> and -- and so you would -- you would have to, to really assure yourself that this was somebody -- >> yep. >> -- not only in a position to know that but who could provide you some sort of evidence, unless it's somebody who obviously, who you know would have been in the room, and who was in a position to just assert this. >> you know, david ignatius, your op-ed about crazytown, how to survive in crazytown and the fact that so many people in washington and around the country see washington, d.c. as crazytown really, doesn't that prove what a massive disconnect, and all of this nonsense, sort of what a massive disconnect there is between the nation's capital and the rest of the nation? we have peace and prosperity. seven years of economic growth.

the economy's doing much better now. then you go back to 2008. my god. people would have absolutely -- been thrilled. wouldn't have believed how well america would have recovered over the past decade. we have peace across the world. isis has been defeated. of course, that started under barack obama, but it has continued under donald trump, and james mattis' leadership. what a disconnect from washington, d.c. and the united states of america. >> i'll give you a perfect example, joe, of that disconnect. this week in the middle of all this fevered speculation about the latest screwball thing that happened at the white house, i was talking with a person who's prominent in the investment business who said he'd just been talking to a very big asian

client, sovereign wealth fund that wanted to substantially increase its exposure to u.s. financial markets, because of a feeling that compared to the rest of the world, the u.s. was at a pretty good trajectory and i kind of went, wow. gee, that's important to remember, isn't it? in terms of those fundamentals, as crazy as washington, our political system is, there's still a lot going right in the country. just to close out our conversation, maybe, about anonymous, the op-ed writer, i really hope the "new york times" did make a wise decision. the language in that op-ed pieces specially the reference to hearing whispers about invocation of the 25th amendment scares me. if you are a part of that conversation, you weren't hearing whispers. you were in a very serious debate, and so you wonder if this was somebody maybe who speaks for one of the

principals? somebody who's close to vice president pence could go to the "new york times" and say i speak on behalf of mr. and mrs. x and not the principal him or herself, and i think if that turns out to be the case, that that's going to, unfortunately, make the argument about the press and its ethics and not about how the white house works. >> still ahead, yesterday we showed you senator kamala harris digging on whether or not brett kavanaugh had spoken to anyone as law firm of trump attorney marc kasowitz. >> what? kasowitz? >> i'm sorry. yeah. kavanaugh was unsure on wednesday but now he has an answer. that's coming up on "morning joe." >> anonymous -- anonymous -- >> anonymous -- ♪

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joining us now, co-founder of axios, mike allen. good morning. >> happy friday! all the household names around the table at "morning joe." >> okay. >> i see a couple of them. >> i see it, yeah.

>> so -- >> can we look at donny's glasses for a second? >> no. i don't want to see it. >> out of people's mouths when they use vulgarities. can we blurt out -- >> look at donny's cell phone cover right here. what does it say? >> burt reynolds would have never worn -- >> king of everything. >> my daughter got it for me for my birthday. >> master of his domain. >> this -- my beautiful daughter got that. what's wrong with my glasses? >> they're not very -- >> guys are angry. >> the trend. >> too much. stop. >> axios is looking at what president trump's legal team is calling mueller's moment of truth. what are they telling you guys over there? >> right. so rudy giuliani last night told a.p. questions about obstruction would be off the table. written or in a voluntary interview. later he backtracked with hallie

jacks jackson, here's what going on. the trump team is trying to jam conflicting statements from rudy, trying to dare mule tore issue a subpoena for the president. they are gambling and we're told behind the scenes this is more a p.r. strategy than a legal strategy. they are gambling mule zeller it going for the high stakes multimonth court fight, that he will back off from that and as a result issue an incomplete report. a report that does not go deep into of obstruction as it could have if he had answers from the president. >> and the excerpts we've seen anyway from bob woodward's book, mueller was in touch with them saying i don't want to subpoena the president but i keep that option. >> mueller is not one to back away from a fight and why people close to the team question this strategy. the idea of just trying to basically bully mueller to get him to back off.

one thing this does do for the president's legal team is it gives them a little exit ramp or breathing room with the president, because we're told from the inside there is no diminishment in the president's hunger to -- interview, to sit down with mueller, to go face-to-face. an astonishing sdmeen ining sc woodward's book where the president's legal team tries to do a mock session to convince him it wouldn't go well, which it didn't. >> hmm. >> does anybody -- thank you, mike allen. happy, happy friday. does anybody think bob mueller's going to back down on any point? >> of course not. no. >> all approval ratings are going in his direction. bob mueller's not backing down. gets delayed, that works to trump's detriment. >> the back and forth whether or not he'll submit to ar interview or wants to is tedious. you want to talk to bob mueller,

knock hadn't his door he'd be happy to clear his schedule and sit down with you. they're playing a cat and mouse game. if you want to do the interview, go do it. still ahead, is the united states already in a constitutional crisis? gene says yes and also theys who can save us. we'll read from his new piece coming up. ♪ hungry eyes ♪ one look at you and i can't disguise ♪ ♪ i've got hungry eyes

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gene, your piece for "the washington post" is not anonymous. it's by you. s oirkz >> they know the risk the nation is running, they have the power to alleviate that risk but they do nothing. instead counting on mature adults to keep trump from

plunging the nation off a cliff. the whistleblower in the "new york times" op-ed said there were people inside the cabinet to push for the 25th amendment. after this week it's clear we're already in a constitutional crisis of frightening proportion. the cabinet will not act. congress under gop control will not act. the internal resistance can only do so much. >> would we be in a constitutional crisis if all the institutions that were set in place to check the president's power were not checking the president's power? >> well, you know, the thing is, it's all written down, right? we have -- congress is supposed to hand all situation like this. and so congress could be doing

serious oversight and serious investigation and leading to the logical conclusion it could be commencing impeachment or the cabinet could have more serious discussions about the 25th amendment. there's this weird dichotomy because on the one hand as david ignatius pointed out a while ago, things in the country are pretty good right now. but on the other hand we're like one step away from being at war in venezuela or from precipitating some sort of military meltdown in pakistan or a crisis in south korea. >> wouldn't the constitutional crisis began when an erratic move was made by the president? >> yeah. >> i'm saying, i'm just arguing

perhaps we're not in a constitutional crisis right now but a step or two away -- >> what's erratic. >> a tweet is not a constitutional crisis. >> a tweet isn't a constitutional crisis. but the failure, i believe, of the institution that ought to be acting, the failure of congress to at least confront honestly the situation we're in now in terms of the executive branch, i think is a crisis. and i think -- i think it's dangerous. i think it's dangerous for the country. it's damaging for the country. >> yes. and the presidency. >> voters need to fix that in november. >> gene, thank you. >> thank you so much. i do agree it's damaging. i agree it's dangerous. . i agree we're in a crisis. i would say we're not in a constitutional crisis. impeachment, every day people

said impeachment. constitutional crisis is when you don't go to the crisis. it ran its course, bill clinton was not impeached, served out his term. left a 67% approval rating. in this case our founders foresee a need to elect house members ofry two years and rotate senate voting. americans made a decision in 2016, they can see the decision they make. they can go back and make that judgment and within the parameters of the constitution of the united states they will vote in 60, 70 days. the constitution works. >> okay but the bar has been lowered on what erratic behavior is. i would say that. >> i'm not so sure it's a constitutional crisis. >> republicans struggle in states that president trump won. >> donny's blue glasses. >> we'll have the new numbers for you.

the president says he's been portrayed as a lunatic. but that's the so-called resistant who is angry and crazy. we'll play his remarks from the rally last tonight. we'll talk to two senators on the brett kavanaugh nomination. >> is she spartacus. senator blumenthal will be our guest as well. "morning joe" is coming right back. you won best looking in your senior year of high school? somebody had to win it. my best high school moment was the day i walked across the stage. my dad...couldn't read real good, so, it was a milestone for me. ancestry now has over 300,000 yearbooks

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>> it's circling the parking area. looking for a place to land. no something came out of the helicopter. it's a dark object. perhaps a sky diver. welcome to the earth. no parachute yet. can't be a sky diver. i can't tell what they are. oh, my god they are turkeys. they are crashing to the earth right in front of our eyes. one is going through the windshield of a parked car. one is running around pushing each other. >> i love him.

he's so cute. that's les nessman. >> they dropped turkeys -- >> a turkey drop. important les. >> they don't fly very well. welcome back to "morning joe" on this friday, september 7th, 2018. >> loni anderson was married to burt reynolds. farewell bandit. >> donny, would you like to say anything appropriate about burt? >> obviously, huge movie star. you guys talked about him. what was interesting about him is he was the kind of essence of idealized masculinity. our view -- i don't know if he would have played as well today with a lot of gender issues going on in this country but that kind of flip, unabashed glib womanizer -- wait i'm doing some soul searching here.

interesting, very symbolic of the times. we can think about our leading men today they don't carry themselves that way and it's interesting. >> it is hard to remember that for several years he was the most successful movie star in america. i mean he and robert redford for a time were the two giants on the stage. >> bing cosby in the '40s. nobody was a top box office draw for five years. >> i didn't know that. shifting topics quickly. jonathan, you and i are the doubting thomas' of red sox nation. it's predicted the red sox are going to be swept by the yankees. they swept instead. a week ago we were on the phone saying, you know, this red sox team is good but not that good. >> season team not a playoff team. >> and they somehow cobbled

together -- they are the mcguyver of baseball. >> when they started, a team that would have been embarrassing during training season and then win it in the ninth. it gives me hope we'll at least within that wild card game. >> i actually think we locked down -- six games away from locking down the second wild card. >> you got low expectations. >> my yankees are mcgruber, blowing themselves up. you have the division. >> listen, we know better than

anybody that the fall does not go well for trk. hardly ever goes well for the red sox. >> don't jinx that. the indians last year won 22, 23 in a row. left it in the season. nothing matters until october. nothing matters. >> president trump's attorney rudy giuliani appears to be back tracking on comments he made about the president and the mueller probe. in an interview with the ap yesterday giuliani said president trump will not answer federal investigators questions in writing or in person about whether he tried to block the probe into russian interference in the 2016 election. he said quote, that's a no go. that's not going to happen. there will be no questions at all on obstruction. >> let's stop right there. jonathan, you reported that story. talk about the circumstances surrounding it. what was giuliani -- what was -- how defiant was giuliani?

>> we spoke early yesterday evening about a variety of topics cluing the "new york times" op-ed and pivoted to the latest negotiations. he couldn't have been clear. one thing about giuliani he's consistently inconsistent. and he changed his story a few different times. after i spoke to him he cleaned up his remarks. when i spoke to him, it was clearly an attempt to lay down another marker in these ongoing interview negotiations in which he said the president would not talk, he would not field questions written or in person about obstruction. moreover anything that happened after he took office, that he felt the mueller probe should be confined to the period before he was sworn in. he then went on to discuss how that they were fielding the offer from mueller about written questions about the russian collusion part of this. even then the goal post shifted from giuliani we said we'll perhaps be open to that but we

won't talk about the idea of followup questions. and if there are any we're not sure we would permit them we should agree to them in advance and limited in scope. >> giuliani said those questions are not ruled in or now. giuliani told nbc quote we said we would agree to written questions on russia after we review questions but no further commitment on interviews after we finish. we'll assess it with no agreement to any post-presidential questions. giuliani added that for now there's quote no commitment on obstruction but says the legal team will agree to talk after the collusion pre-presidential questions are over. >> these negotiations are still going on between the trump legal team and mueller's team and we know mueller won't say anything, not publicly. this is -- giuliani, he's a lawyer. he's the pr person. this is what he's been doing for the president since he took this job is the idea of trying to

sort of shape public opinion on this. believing that eventually it's going to be a report from mueller that through doj will go to congress and that's his audience. that members of congress and their constituents, the idea that they are the ones who will eventually weigh in and decide the president's fate. this is this dance back and forth. seemingly another shot across mueller's bow, suggesting we won't sit down for this. amp up the pressure. dare the special counsel to issue a subpoena. >> any insight into giuliani's strategy. if he's the president's pr man he's doing a terrible job. robert mueller's approval ratings are skyrocketing. donald trump is in the mid-30s on three of the latest national polls that have come out. any insight into what giuliani is trying to do and how it's helping or hurting the president?

>> joe, we all feel watching giuliani which is like donald trump he's a counter puncher. he just wants to be out there in a feisty combative way, carrying the president's defense that his previous lawyers were cooperative, trump thought to a fault. one thing that intrigues me about this discussion of the interview or questioning the president, often in a criminal trial, this is obviously different because it involves the president, you have a moment where there's the issue of interviewing a principal witness. that person typically gets a target letter or a letter that informs the person of his or her status before this interview. any lawyer would ask for that. i can't help to wonder if there hasn't been some communication from mueller to the white house, to giuliani and the other lawyers just putting them on notice that in regards this question of an interview they should understand the status of

the potential witness who would be interviewed. >> so, susan, i don't know what the challenge, where you would begin with a challenge on representing president trump on, for example, obstruction. while there's all this discussion about whether or not he'll talk to mueller or answer questions on paper. isn't the allegation of obstruction in plain sight, on nbc news, in his tweets, even his attacks on jeff sessions at this point one could read a lot in that this president is trying to push things away from him, potentially obstructing justice? >> well, yes. i think at this point mueller probably has everything laid out that he needs so if the president responds in writing or not he has it. what's really interesting it's right after labor day that line in the sand that rudy giuliani was saying we can talk about the mueller investigation and should be suspended. he's the one, not mueller's team, who is talking about this investigation, who is talking about questioning the president.

so i think as far as everyone goes we now have to look at it, it's no longer an issue if you talk about it based on the president's team. >> willie, remember tycobb said it's all wrapped up by 2017. by christmas 2017. giuliani has been saying deadline is labor day. again, time and time again mueller has said nothing. he's just kept his head down, working 24 hours a day. i don't think he's listening to him? >> of course not. the vice president told andrea mitchell a couple of months ago time to wrap it up. time to wrap it up. you talk to giuliani more than the rest of us. the president's team are the ones that have some leverage over bob mueller. when the truth of the matter is they will do it if not voluntarily through subpoena they will do what bob mueller tells them to do. >> it's their attempt to shape public perception here and to

put mueller on the defensive when there's no reason to think that would work that mueller is listening to these public pronouncements. there are behind-the-scenes negotiations. mullers team sent a letter suggesting an openness to let trump offer written responses on russian collusion. so this feels like this wave of interviews that giuliani gave yesterday is an attempt to get ahead of that. whether that's a winning strategy in the courtroom, if you will, remains to be seen and certainly there's nothing so far that would indicate that mueller has been intimidated by any of these warning shots coming from the white house. >> bill shine went in and started running communication for the president. i've known bill for a long time. i'm curious, so separate yourself from this story. separate yourself from the donald trump that you know, that you've known, that we know.

i mean you've done -- you've done pr work forever. you got rudy giuliani running around hurting the president's cause. making matters worse. making robert mueller's ratings go sky-high. a lot of chaos inside the white house right now. let's pretend for a second, let's suspend animation, and say that donald trump is going to listen to bill shine or sarah huckabee sanders or any of the communication people's advice. what advice do you give him on september 7th, 2018, with an election a couple of months away and all the trend lines going in the wrong direction? >> i say, you know how you suspend the russian investigation you suspend it. basically your talking points you laid out about 20 minutes ago. the economy has never been better. unemployment is good.

we're at peace we killed isis. i have more important things to do. the very thing they are doing is counter intuitive. the more they mix up the soup it keeps boiling up. if he was dismissive and i got more important things to do and i'm sure bob mueller -- we'll deal with that when it comes in. >> that's not in his nature. >> do you know what bill clinton was so brilliant at doing? republicans were pounding on an issue, on an issue and bill clinton would go they are right. i agree. we need to balance that budget. we had no other choice. he got pounded on welfare reform. did it twice. signed at any time third time. made it his. look at the beginning of bill clinton's biography, first two things he talks about is a balanced budget and welfare reform. what he's most proud of. bill clinton would co-op the best that the republican party had and then move forward with his agenda. donald trump could go out the

next couple of months talking about nothing but peace, prosperity, the destruction of isis, economic growth, the likes of which we haven't seen in two quarters because the next quarter will be high as well. we haven't seen in a couple of years. yes, anything. yes the economy is strong. yes it's stronger. yes the fight against isis. we finished it. we won that war. and the biggest thing then, and nobody has been able to tell him the difference between collusion and russia interference. he's so wrapped up and so enaune to separate those two terms. if he said yeah the russians interfered and better knock it off the sanctions will get tougher. boom. then he could talk about nothing

but peace and prosperity. >> he tries to do that. they can't impeach me things are going too well. it's in there. so counter to who he is. if he today just looked at the camera and said look i don't want to talk about it any more. when it comes out we'll deal with it. obviously they are doing what they are doing. i'm running the country. i'm making sure you have a job. i'm making sure isis never attacks us. i'm the president. i'm acting like a president. >> he's incapable of -- >> we know that. >> two things he said that isis was on the run. we finished the job. that would give some credit to obama. if the economy is better that gives credit to president obama. to not talk about the russian interference question and the collusion question he believes that calls into question his very presidency. any conversation about russia he thinks undermines his legitimacy and makes people think maybe he shouldn't be president. he can't allow that. he can stay away from it.

he won't. he didn't last night at the rally. talking about anything but. >> but he has to have a fight. he just can't talk about what success this administration has had. as far as he's concerned he's not donald trump unless he's fighting somebody. and that's why that strategy that, donny, i agree would make all the sense in the world, this president could never happen. you're making the assumption, joe, he can recognize what good policy is. >> right. >> democrats made waves yesterday as you heard with senator cory booker suggesting he's willing to be kicked out of the senate over his move to release confidential estimates regarding supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. >> any senator, officer or employee of the senate who shall disclose the confidential business or proceedings of the senate including the business and proceedings of the committees subcommittees and office of the senate shall be liable if a senator to suffer

expulsion from the body and if an officer or employee to dismissal from the service of the senate and to punishment for contempt. so i would bring up -- i would correct the senator's statement there's no rule, there's clearly a rule that applies. >> then bring the charges. >> around the time that was going on senator hirono tweeted screen shots of documents saying they contain information republicans don't want americans to see. and the hawaii democrat joins us now. senator good to see you again this morning. >> senator spartacus. >> was that your spartacus moment? >> i used the document that was relevant to the questions that i had regarding judge kavanaugh's attitude towards native hawaiians. >> we learned later the documents that cory booker was explaining was confidential and he was going to put his hide on the line to be released, it was

cleared the night before and he was free to distribute them at the hearing. were your documents cleared before you posted them to twitter? >> no. i didn't ask for clearance on my document before, during or after i used it. >> do you feel like you either broke a rule in the senate, a rule of that committee or are you in good standing to post those? >> i question the legitimacy of deis ination of confidentiality. after i used the document i said i defy anybody to conclude that this document should even be deemed confidential. by the way, the entire process of deeming thousands of thousands of documents confidential was named by this guy named bill burke. who the hell he is. he's a confidant of judge kavanaugh. so i think the whole process of not even legitimate and so i proceed use my document without

asking for clearance. >> don't you think, senator, though respectfully that as long as the rules are in place they ought to be followed and that there's a process. same way cory booker got his documents cleared before he posted them. >> there was a process for designating these documents and that process was not followed at all. so we all acknowledge that. they are just trying to, as i say in hawaii cover their -- at this point. >> do you think it's a senator dangerous precedent to violate that rule on your own to go out i won't recognize the confidentiality. what happens if it happens to you or other democrats the next time. >> it was a dangerous precedent to allow thousands of documents to be hidden from the american public using a process that's not legitimate. if we could have come together as was done in the past it would have been okay. that's not what happened at all. if they want to expell me

because i haven't followed the so-called rule, then they should do that. but they are trying very hard now to, after the fact, say that my document had been cleared. you know what? there's only one person who would have asked that very specific document relating to judge kavanaugh's attitude about native hawaiians and that person would have been me and i certainly did not ask for clearance before, during or after. >> david ignatius is with us. >> ask another question. >> david ignatius. >> senator, i want to ask you whether you think judge kavanaugh's basic credibility has been wounded by information that's come out in some of these documents? it seems that in past hearings he denied that he had been involved in confirmation of judge pryor, for example and documents that show he was involved. he denied he was involved in the case of somebody named manuel miranda and the documents shoefs. is that hurting his credibility,

do you think? >> as far as i'm concerned there are all these questions as to how forthcoming he was in his prior testimony in 2006. i wasn't here then. i'm focused on his dissents which shows a pattern he's very much against women's reproductive rights and cases he definitely has a pattern, and i think it was a blinking red light. it doesn't matter to me that he never had a discussion now about the mueller investigation, but it was a blinking red light when he wrote that a sitting president should not be subject to either criminal or civil proceedings. that's a huge red light to this president who is all about protecting himself. >> all right. >> one quick question. >> senator, we have a split screen up here with cory booker and kirk douglas. do you see --

>> still ahead on "morning joe" we showed you that moment from wednesday's hearing where brett kavanaugh struggled to answer whether he discussed bob mueller or the russian probe with somebody from a law firm linked to donald trump. kavanaugh was asked about that again yesterday and it took a long time to get an answer. that's next on "morning joe". m "small business", never owned a business. are your hours small? what about your reputation? is that small? owning your own thing is huge. your partnerships, even bigger. with dell small business technology advisors, you get the one-on-one partnership to grow your business. because the only one who decides how big your business can be, is you. the dell vostro 14 laptop with 8th gen intel core processors. get up to 40% off on select pcs. call 877-buy-dell today. ( ♪ ) but one blows them all out of the water.

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have you discussed mueller or his investigation with anyone at the law firm founded by mark kasowitz, president trump's personal lawyer? be sure about your answer, sir. >> um, well, i'm not remembering but if you have something you want to -- >> are you certain you've not had a conversation with anyone at that law firm?

>> the law firm founded by mark kasowitz who is president trump's personal lawyer. have you had any conversation about robert mueller or his investigation with anyone at that firm? yes or no? >> well, is there a person you're talking about >> i'm asking you a very direct question. yes or no. >> i need to know -- i'm not sure i know everyone at that person at that law firm. >> who did you talk to? >> i'm not remembering. but i'm happy to be refreshed or -- >> sir, are your saying that with all that you remember, you have an impeccable memory. you've been speaking for eight hours about all sorts of things you remember. how can you not remember whether or not you had a conversation about robert mueller or his

investigation with anyone at that law firm. the investigation has only been going on for so long, sir. >> i'm trying to think do i know anyone who works at that firm. >> that's not my question. my question is have you had a conversation with anyone at that firm about the investigation. it's a really specific question? >> i would like to know the person you're thinking of because what if -- >> i think you're thinking of somebody and you don't want to tell us. >> wow that was part of a long exchange on wednesday between senator harris and president trump's supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. the two went at it again yesterday. >> yes or no, have you ever been part of a conversation with lawyers at the firm of kasowitz, be benson, torres, where you ever part of a conversation. i didn't ask what did you say. i'm asking were you a party to a

conversation that occurred regarding special counsel mueller's investigation and a simple yes or no is suffice. >> about his investigation, are you referring to a specific person? >> i'm referring to a specific subject and the specific person i'm referring to is you. >> no, who was the conversation with? you said you had information. >> that is not the subject of the question, sir. >> okay. >> the subject is you and whether you were part of a conversation regarding special counsel mueller's investigation. >> the answer is no. >> thank you. it would have been great if could you have said that last night. >> kavanaugh finally acknowledged knowing kasowitz attorney from their time together in the bush administration but denied he had any contact with the firm regarding the mueller probe or prep for his confirmation hearing. >> that was really strange. >> how does he not know? >> suspicious.

>> is it? >> joining us now -- >> it's obvious. come on, this guy -- first of all, the judiciary committee democratic senator richard blumenthal is here on the set, msnbc chief legal correspondent is here. senator, hold one second. i want to clear something up with ari. ari, yesterday, he's asked about the kasowitz firm. he goes with kasowitz and then he's saying i'm trying to remember if i knew anybody -- all right. i never worked in the washington legal community. but i know it is a tight legal community. everybody knows everybody. kavanaugh has been inside, been swimming in that very small fish bowl for what, three decades. he clearly knows that his friend worked at kasowitz. he knows what the firm kasowitz.

he knows about the firm. yesterday he pretended like -- he said kaso -- what like he didn't know. i don't know, i'm trying to be if i know anybody in that firm. he worked with in the bush administration. it's a friend of his. >> that's exactly right. one way to say is it is gentleman kavanaugh is too smart to play that dumb and shouldn't take 15 minutes and two days of rlg testimony. he's finally said on the record a no. so that's useful. that's why we have these hearings. the other point i'll make that viewers can forget there's a thing in court called ex parte communications. judges are highly restricted and regulated how they do that. if there's one thing they remember as something as big as the mueller probe potential one side or private communications with a lawyer where he said he didn't have. >> especially if you're on the short list.

the federalist short list to be a supreme court nominee. senator, the judges that at least the judges i spent my 20s and 30s around, you ask them a question about a case like that, they would know. did you ever talk about the mueller investigation, the most important investigation going on in america, judge, with a lawyer in a law firm that represents the president of the united states, every judge i've ever known would say, this is the answer no, of course i wouldn't. even the question is an insult to the integrity of most judges. and yet brett kavanaugh -- and i'm not -- you know, i'm just stating what every lawyer knows, brett kavanaugh takes him two days to figure out whether he had an extraordinarily

inappropriate conversation with somebody in the president's firm. >> lawyers are very, very careful about their contacts with judges, and vice versa. judges are extraordinarily circumspect and they are equally careful in talking to lawyers and in my questions to him yesterday he acknowledged knowing only one lawyer at that firm ed mcnally, but equally important he was ambiguous in stating whether he discussed the special counsel with anyone in the white house. and i asked him specifically about his potential conversations on the special counsel. he said i never had an inappropriate conversation, but he wouldn't be more specific about what he has discussed on the special counsel. likewise, he evaded questions about whether he would pardon the president. he refused to say he would

recuse himself even though he's been nominated bay president who is an unindicted co-conspirator. i asked if he would not sit on issues involving the president's personal criminal or civil liability. he refused to say he would take himself off those case. he refused to say he would enforce a subpoena against the president which is more and more timely in light of the president's increasing resistance to this investigation. >> senator, it's willie geist. i know you have concerns about judge kavanaugh's views on presidential powers but whether or not he spoke to an attorney at the kasowitz law firm could loom large what happens with the mueller investigation, what the outcome is, whether it comes before the supreme court in some shape or form. do you think this is a question worth pursuing further. would you want to get documents from kasowitz and see if there was a phone call or emails?

>> we need those documents. we need to make sure we find them. they are probably among documents that have been withheld from us, if they do exist. and we need to pursue them. i'm doing so through a freedom of information act request that i filed. we may need to go to a court to enforce it next week. and certainly it taught be pursued. and you're absolutely right, the mark kasowitz firm is front and center in this investigation. >> senator, i want to ask you about what rudy giuliani has been saying over the last day or so with regards to the mueller investigation, whether or not the president will submit to an interview, whether he'll do it through written questions, whether he'll allow a followup interview after the written questions. do you believe that the president and bob mueller in some shape or form will sit down with one another, at least talk through the written word? >> rudy giuliani had moved the goal post repeatedly saying what the conditions are, what the

time and circumstances are in setting for any potential conversation. more and more i'm of the view that there needs be a subpoena that would have to be enforced and that's why this nominee's views on presidential power and his doubling down on the idea that the president can refuse to enforce a law nullified in effect, deem it unconstitutional even after it's upheld by the court and refuse to obey a subpoena are more and more alarming at a time when we face this impending constitutional crisis because of a president who is amoral. >> do you think mueller will talk to the president at some point? >> he has to talk to the president to complete this investigation. >> senator richard blumenthal as always thanks so much for being with us. ari, a lot of concern right now among democrats in the senate that kavanaugh would vote

against robert mueller being able to compel the president to testify. got to say, i find it hard to believe, though, that john roberts, a man who believes his duty, his responsibility is to protect the institution of the supreme court would yield so much power to the executive branch and you wouldn't have john roberts and perhaps one other republican appointed judge compel the president to testify under oath when a subpoena is delivered to him. >> well, joe, i don't want to scandalize your knowledge of washington, but i think the mueller part of these hearings and i was down there for a couple of days has more politics than the law. the roe v wade conversation has more law than politics in that what this hearing has unearthed is that you have someone who is giving private, very pro life advice to a pro life administration which underscores

he might be a pro life judge. people can decide whether that's good or bad. on mueller part there's far less evidence he would be radical in that way, because there's just isn't much evidence at all. there's a law article that's fascinating. evidence of some partisanship, shocking that a little judge that was appointed by the trump administration has some partisanship. we don't know. we have to be fair about that. you look at the balance on the court. if you had a clinton-like situation that went with a grand jury subpoena to the court, it would be a big case but i think there's a lot of reasons why the court might want to rule backing up u.s. v nixon that no president is above the law. >> i find it hard they would not. >> kavanaugh would act, we don't know. but the trump team, giuliani camp believes they are very confident in this. they have said repeatedly and again another effort to sort of perhaps taunt mueller they are looking for that subpoena. that's a fight giuliani said they would welcome.

they believe they would win on legal merits and pre-dated the kavanaugh pick and certainly only grown more confident since. >> despite the fact though, david ignatius, that it was rudy giuliani himself who said during the clinton impeachment no man is above the law. if you're subpoenaed you have to answer that subpoena and testify. >> you know, the way in which giuliani has played this almost defying the mueller and the courts, i think it has to offend chief justice roberts. everything we know about him, shows that he takes the court's role seriously. i must say in all the kavanaugh hearings the thing that bothers he in most was his refusal to criticize donald trump's remarks in particular about justice ruth baden ginsburg where he said in a tweet a couple of years ago her mind is shot. we remember that neil gorsuch during his confirmation hearings

very specifically said he thought trump's comments about the judiciary were disheartening. >> yes he did. >> couldn't be more specific. that's what kavanaugh has not done. that bugs me. >> actually, it's like watching paul ryan or some of the republicans on capitol hill where they are pretending that something isn't happening. when you get a question, susan, that's so obviously connected to today's events and can a president pardon himself, obviously, obviously kavanaugh knows what he's being asked about. >> of course. >> it's frustrating to watch him dodge and i worry about a loyalty oath. i mean i can't imagine. but i wonder. i will say in the age of trump you can't actually put anything out of your mind. >> i certainly think there's merit to that but i also think when we look at this hearing it seemed like it was certain senators looking for their spartacus moment. it was politicized.

some senators wouldn't meet with kavanaugh. i can understand why they have problems. but at the same time this seems more like a political exercise. >> it was a political circus. i do want to follow up on something that david said where he said, couldn't believe that john roberts wouldn't be offended by what donald trump has said over the past year and half about so-called judges and questioning the authority of federal judges. you know, i talked to federal judges, i've talked to family members of federal judges who have said conservative federal judges, federalist society type federal judges have been deeply offended by donald trump's attacks on the independence of the judiciary. i'll say it again today. rudy giuliani does not want to challenge the supreme court on this subpoena because he'll lose and i don't think it will be

close. >> yeah. thank you. >> thank you. >> great to see you. >> still ahead the mid-term races are all locked up in several states that president trump won by double digits in the 2016 election. we'll dig into the new numbers next on "morning joe". come with us to a new world deeper than the ocean as unfathomable as the universe a world that doesn't exist outside you, but within you where breakthrough science is replacing chemotherapy with immunotherapy where we can now attack the causes of disease not just the symptoms. where medicines once produced for all, are now designed to fit you.

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new polling shows close races in states where president trump won. the nbc news/marist poll in u.s. tennessee senate shows the democrat, phil bredesen backed by 48% while mash shah blackburn gets 46%. donald trump won the state by 26 points in 2016. >> let's stop right there. of course, the headline out of that poll still bredesen's approval ratings, crazy.

what were they like 60-20. >> avenues popular governor. mayor of the city of nashville, state of tennessee likes him. the fact that donald trump won by 26 points obviously significant. there's sympathy for trump. if you run the right candidate against phil bredesen, can you overcome the trump sympathy. >> he's the ideal -- in a year where the democratic enthusiasm is as high as it is, tennessee is a red state but phil bredesen is a democrat that he can draw a lot of votes in that state. he's maybe the only available democratic candidate who would be running this strong but the perfect candidate for this year in this race. >> the race for georgia's governor is a dead heat. a new poll found republican secretary of skate brian kemp and ex-state legislator stacy abrams had a 45% each.

8% of likely voters are undecided. 51% of likely georgia voters disapprove of the job the president is doing. 42% approve. >> are you surprised by those numbers >> no. for two reasons. stacy abrams, an incredible race with the florida race we'll have so much focus on florida and georgia because they are very similar in their historic potential for candidates and trumpy republican rivals but georgia, as you know, is not like tennessee. georgia is a state that's becoming increasingly blue and that's a state because of the growth of suburbs around atlanta that strong african-american vote. there's going to be an african-american georgia governor soon and it could be stacy abrams. >> cal perry traveled to texas. >> you probably saw that video. nfl video from beto discussing kneeling controversy something that may have had an effect foj

which shows a dead heat in the state of texas. many in the democratic party are hoping that the congressman becomes a face for the future. he recently competed a 34 day road 34-day road trip and we caught up with him on his trip getting a look at the life of a democratic running in texas with the ever present sound track of texas political radio. >> he is hip, cool, ted cruz isn't hip and cool. his new trick is to go to those places, haul a rally, get people to show you and say the things they like to hear. >> i am concerned about the polls. i don't necessarily know where they're polling people at. >> there are people coming out in el paso. there are people coming out in ft. davis. >> i don't see one ted cruz. i see bato signs. i'm concerned if ted cruz really wants to win this race, where

are his people at? >> you go to some of the reddest places in texas, places like abilene, you and you can see it from outer space. there is something very special happening in texas right now. now, it may be reflected in the polls. >> i've talked to a lot of people and nobody i have ever even talked to, i've never met one person who has been polled. who are they polling, the illegal immigrants? >> to everyone in this community who gave me a chance to succeed, i want to tell you, i'm going to make the absolute most of it right now. >> three minutes after the hour, robert francis o'rourke, better known as beto, feels it's very american to take a knee. >> i can think of nothing more american than to peacefully stand up or take a knee for your rights anytime anywhere any place.

so thank you very much for asking the question. >> how about ted cruz attacking you on what you said about the nfl? >> no, my comments speak for themselves. >> it doesn't appear that robert francis beto hurt himself with the ramblings on and on and on about there's nothing more american than taking a knee. as a matter of fact, it looks like it might have helped him. who are these people? >> we're american, you know? we should be able to -- if you want to kneel, be able to kneel. and if you don't want to kneel, you want to stand up, go ahead and stand up. >> o'rourke, otherwise known as robert o'rourke, do you really think you're going to win with your hispanderring? >> why beto and not ted cruz? >> ted cruz has been out there for a long time and he hasn't really represented anybody, especially when it comes to hispanics, it hasn't stood up for what hispanics are for. >> so, you know, look, if i hear

one more democratic operative either in the state or nationally say if we're at least competitive in texas, that's like a win, i'm going to lose my mind. a win is a win. watch the hearing and tell me if we get close it's a win. >> i've been saying for 15 years, pennsylvania is always fool's gold for republicans and elections. donald trump of all people, why pennsylvania? maybe beto wins pennsylvania, but -- i mean, texas, but this sounds an awful lot like the talk we heard about wendy davis, profile on the front cover of the "new york times" magazine. the darling -- >> the rock star. >> the east coast press. the rock star. the darling of hollywood. and she got absolutely hammered there because it's a conservative republican state. >> ted cruz will do anything to win this race. if he's got to embrace donald trump at a rally next month,

he'll do it. so the democratic party needs to get serious. he has a young, experienced staff. >> the democratic nominee for the state, democrat lupe valdez who also going by sheriff for a reason. >> yes. i was the sheriff of dallas county for 13 years. >> usz this race is an uphill battle. why? >> it is, but it's not an impossible battle. let's think about the woman who has to work two jobs to make ends meet. think about the people in the rural desert. all these folks are interested in having changes made. we're continuously bringing the message out. you say it's a red state. i say it's a nonvoting state. we're 49th in the people coming out to vote. so what we have to do is bring out the vote. and we have a fighting chance. which is what i want for all of

texas. >> so change the turnout, change the color. >> sheriff, inmate heilman has a question. >> well, it's been the case in texas there's been successive cycles where democrats have saying, you know what? texas is on the brink of going blue. clearly, texas will be california some number of years from now. it will be a blue state because of the changes in demographics. but are we there yet? and what do democrats have to do? what they failed to do with wendy davis was to get a lot of hispanic voters to vote. how is that going to be different in 2018? >> two things. you just saw in abilene, texas, you have this problem. we went at 2:00 in an afternoon on a monday and there was a crowd there. i thought i was going to be talking to the democrats in a phone booth, you know? 12 or so. there was 60, 70, at 2:00 in the afternoon on monday with two days' notice that we were going

come back. there's changes happening in texas. we're willing to help the tipping point because poorest neighborhood in san antonio became the sheriff of dallas county for 13 years. that's an opportunity, a path. we need to do that for the rest of texas. >> we got more numbers yesterday about children separated from their families along the border. how prominently is that issue which is a national issue playing in your race? >> well, i bring it out quite a bit. texans do have a heart. and this is what i am saying to all of us. the rest of the u.s. is getting the wrong impression of texas because certain people are making the cry. you know, there's a lot of really decent, good people with a heart in texas. and i constantly bring it out. and the cheers are continually there for that. so i think changes is in play this year and we're going to make the difference to cause

that change. >> sheriff lupe valdez, she's candidate for governor of texas. thank you very, very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. >> kyle perry, thank you, as well. coming up, the white house is on a tear to find the anonymous official who wrote that explosive op ed in the "new york times." >> willie knows who it is. >> it could be so many people and there are denials of who it could have been and yet everyone is denying they're the author. we'll go live to california ahead of president trump's first big rally before the midterms. "morning joe" is coming right back. i'm ken jacobus, i'm the owner of good start packaging. we distribute environmentally-friendly packaging for restaurants. and we've grown substantially. so i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy. and last year, i earned $36,000 in cash back. that's right, $36,000. which i used to offer health insurance to my employees. my unlimited 2% cash back is more than just a perk,

it's our healthcare. can i say it? what's in your wallet?

i'll tell you what, this man has fought, in more ways than one, for your state pep has fought for your state. greg gianforte, he is a fighter and a winner. he's a winner. >> you know you were waiting to make your decision about health care until you saw the bill and it just came out. >> we'll talk to you about that later. >> yeah, there's no time partnership just -- >> i'm sick and tired of you

guys. the last time i did this, you said the same thing. get the hell out of here. get the hell out of here. the last time you did the same thing. you are the guardian? >> yes. and you just broke my glasses. >> the last guy did the same thing. >> a fighter and a winner if you're talking about beating up reporters. >> that's not right. >> assault charges. >> and then that guy behind the president got removed because he wasn't clapping. you must clap. good morning, everyone. president trump last night praising the montana congressman who pleaded guilty last year to physically assaulting a reporter on the eve of the election. >> he's a fighter. >> yeah, not really. welcome to "morning joe." >> i noticed you guys aren't clapping hard enough. >> it's friday, september 7th. joe, natalie and me and david ignatius.

elegant. a lot to talk about. it's a who done it in the white house and you think about it, it's like playing trump at his own game. this person who was the anonymous author of -- i'm not listening to you. >> this person is creating this big reveal. >> you know what joe is focused on right now, nobody cares about donald trump right now. >> he was a big deal. >> when you were a young man and you saw the reaction of the women folk -- >> the women folk, yes. >> to burt reynolds in playgirl magazine, did you not think to yourself, i want to grow up to be burt reynolds? >> no. >> yes, i know you did. >> you wanted to be the bandit. >> i don't know. so you -- we were hearing you as we were coming in here. >> because you're so loud. >> and you -- i think you need to do it. whenever i called you, i told you, you know, about burt reynolds -- >> he broke the news to me about burt reynolds' passing.

>> it's sort of like where were you when you heard about pearl harbor. >> where are you you -- >> immediately went to "smokey and the bandit." >> first hour of the morning. >> so burt starred in 90 movies, 300 television shows. that's how he got his start. >> amazing. >> i was on "deliverance." >> i saw that. >> my parents, strict southern baptists, would go to church four times a week, would go sunday morning, we would go sunday night to trading union, tuesday night bible study, wednesday night -- friday night sometimes family night. but somewhere in the middle of all that, when i was 9 years old, my father took my brother and sister and i to "the longest yard." >> wow. at 9 years old.

>> and when i went back to school in mississippi and told them that i saw r-rated the longest yard, i was the coolest kid in school for about 15 minutes. >> you worn what tnder what the influences are on the man that will some day be your husband. >> it warped me. he filled this really interesting place in american popular culture. it's hard for people now to remember. he was extraordinarily huge. >> huge, yeah. >> and he was just a fun guy, no worries about him. but it sort of became -- i don't know if a parody or a self parody was better. but then in '97 web did boogie nights. and suddenly it's like when travolta went back and he did "pulp fiction."

people looked at burt reynolds and said, man, that guy can act. >> i was doing an interview with him and he said after he did boogie nights, he realized i should have taken his acting more seriously. he was great in deliverance. he went through a period of smokey and the bandit, cannon ball run. but then he came back years later after a down period in the 80s and 90s and did boogie nights and he was phenomenal in that movie. he was great. >> also in that period, he was omnipresent on american movie screens. he would have three or four burt reynolds movies on at the same time. >> everywhere, five years between '78 and '82, burt reynolds was the world's highest grossing movie star and i mean, just some iconic roles. really iconic roles. >> there's a snl parity.

when he got at the gum smauking detachment, cool of burt reynolds where he turned down roles, he turned down james bond -- >> what? >> he turned down han solo. >> michael corleone. >> sounds hard. >> one flew over the coocoo's nest. >> turned down die hard. and, actually, phil wanted him to be morning burt and he decided to turn this role down, as well. more news now. the white house continues to hunt for the anonymous administration official behind that scathing "new york times" op ed. the times reports that white house officials have been calling around asking cabinet secretaries if they are responsible. so far, every cabinet official has issued a denial. everyone with the exception of chief of staff john kelly and attorney general jeff sessions

referred to -- referred nbc news to the statement from sarah sanders that calls the anonymous official a coward. sanders also denies reports that aides are printing out and delivering the denials to the president directly. my god. she posted the phone number to the "new york times" opinion desk and urged people to call in and demand the paper to reveal the writer. senator rand paul reportedly recommended members of the administration be subjected to lie detector tests and -- >> by the way, rand paul, mr. civil libertarian -- come on now. >> haul them down and strap them. >>. >> wow, automatic. there was at least some discussion about that among the president's advisers, as well. they also reportedly discussed asking senior officials to sign sworn affidavits that could be used in court if necessary. >> all right. >> one outside adviser tells the paper the white house has a list

of about 12 -- so let's talk about that. willie, we talk about this yesterday. if you're the "new york times" and you're the editor and somebody comes to you with something like this that is this significant, it can't be an assistant to an assistant at the national -- >> because they know that he's going to get -- >> it's going to be the vice president or it's got to be nikki haley or the secretary -- i mean, is it only seven or eight officials at the "new york times" you would ever grant -- right? can we expect if it's not -- they're not going down. i know linda mcmahon denied it yesterday, but they're not -- i mean, you would hope "the times" would say it's mattis or kelly or, you know, keep it pretty tight. >> the term they used again was senior official in the trump administration. not senior white house official. so that broadens it out even more than the people you are

talking about who are that close to the president on a daily basis. but, yeah, i think, you know, if they're going to try to go find this person and they feel like they vnts found them yet when you look at that list of 27 people, it starts to look like it may not be one of those headliners we're talking about. so then the editors were asked on their own pod cast "the daily" yesterday if they could narrow it down. what does it mean to call someone a senior official and they wouldn't do that because they thought it would she too revealing. i guess the answer is we may not know for a very long time who this certain is. >> i'm with joe on this. there's a key element to this. is the assertion that cabinet officials were discussing invoking the 25th amendment. so any cabinet secretary would be in a position to know about that. i think you're right, that the times, because of the gravity of this, would probably not extend

anonymity to a junior official, knot nor would a junior official be in a position to reliably report a story like this, which is what that is, reporting that there had been discussions of that kind. so i think you're talking about, logically, someone who is a principal, whether that's a cabinet secretary or a senior white house official, someone who is -- i'm not casting suspicion on someone like ahead of the nec, ahead of the nsc, but you would have to be, for the times to extend, i would think logically there would have to be someone that senior and it would comport with the notion it would have to be someone that senior to reliably assert those discussions had taken place in the administration. that wouldn't away junior official at the veterans affairs department. it would be in no position to know about those things. >> you would hope not. david, we've heard quite a few people saying so far that the real news of this isn't who wrote it. >> exactly. >> but the fact that a thousand people in the administration

kwo could have wrote it. if you have been in washington, d.c., this sort of talk loosely in ee lead circles in policy leaders from day one. >> i think that is the one -- although we have this list of denials, the fact that it's known that there are many, i'd say, a half dozen or more people who have been doing what this op ed describes, have been trying to steer policy in a way that it wouldn't be damaged by the whims and impulsive decisions of the president. that tells us that the if a no one n-- phenomenon in the piece is real. it underlines something we sort of knew, but it drives it home.

trump's rage at this is part of a rage that he doesn't fully control and hasn't for months. i think the question is how much damage this crazy period -- bob woodward's book called it crazy town. living in crazy town after a while gets exhausting and disorienting. that is what washington has felt like. people are obsessed with this game that people are making bets with bookies. i mean, what a crazy situation. >> crazy. >> and the question is how are we going to get out of that. stilt ahead, the pick for who may have authored that anonment op ed. ♪

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we have figured out who is the anonymous op ed writer. >> shi wife detected a feminine tone in the op ed and she suggested -- charlie suggested it was kellyanne conway. and i had not even contemplated that. i was more in the dan coats mode on the outside of this. but the more you think about it, it makes some sense. she's very cagey. she's the kind of person that would find out that mike pence

would use the word lodstar a lot. plus, she's trying to set herself up to by the carva madeleine of the future. this is a good set up. >> we have evidence of this, donnie, because at the end of the campaign, she would in the green room and around the set talk about how she couldn't wait for the campaign to go over. >> she did have that side of her. >> she used the word daytona beach. i was doing the show with you on that day on the break and she said what are you doing? she said it's like a vacation at daytona beach. it's like being on the beach with all the kids. and i agree. who is cunning and clever enough to use the pence word and who in the trump administration has the most to lose? they'll all go back to their political worlds, but if you or somebody who wants to be on television, in the communications world, whatnot, you really have to reinvent yourself.

mike pompeo does not have to reinvent himself. >> look at others that have left the white house. except for one or two, they ain't working in washington any more. they've destroyed their reputations. they might as well go back home. because no administration will ever hire them again. >> is and to your thing about junior staffers, it takes@of sophistication to go to the "new york times," negotiate this kind of a thing, execute a really well written op ed. some with communications skills, someone who can write, someone who knows their way around the "new york times" and around the media world, it makes sense if it's her. have somebody pull her denial yesterday which is not in the category of denials where she's trashing the person. it's a denial, but it's a pretty soft denial. >> you can make the case for a lot of these splashy big names, headliners. i'll maintain that it's a name

that is not a household name, somebody that you wouldn't recognize if you heard, but who does hold some power within the trump administration, but not a household name. >> when you say some conversations you had, you mean not just conversation with random people on the street. >> no, no, with people who may be familiar. but, again, it's all speculation. but unless you're one of the editors at the "new york times," you don't know. >> so i think your idol speculation is not kellyanne. >> respectfully, i do. >> now donnie is going to speak. >> a lot of people are complaining about the anonymity. i think they're smart. if the person had come forward, the discussion would have been all about -- let's say it was jim kelly. well, he's a drunk or -- as opposed to the content, it would have been about the person and it would have played right into what trump does and he would pick up his gun and say of course this person said that.

i mocked him in a meeting last week. i disagree with you in the sense that i think if it comes out and it's not a top 20 names, i think the times will have a lot of explaining to do. and if if i am an editor and i am the farthest thing from an editor of the "new york times," i want to know when and if and it will come out and that's auto name we've heard. "morning joe" is back in a moment. us. it's what this country is made of. but right now, our bond is fraying.

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brian's back? he doesn't get my room. he's only going to be here for like a week. like a month, tops. oh boy. wi-fi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. in many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40's. let's go to eugene robinson. >> you're article "we're in a constitutional rye sis only voters can save us now." trump's voters pretend there is a normal president in the white house instead of, let's be honest, a maniac. they know the risk is nation is running. they have the power to alleviate that risk, but they do nothing. instead, counting on mature

adults in the administration to keep trump from plunging the nation off some cliff. the writesel blower wrote there were early whispers within the cabinet of invoked the 25th amendment. but it is clear we are in a situation of constitutional crisis. voters are the last line of defense. you must say the day. >> wouldn't we be in a constitutional crisis, gene, if all the institutions that were set in place to check the president's power were not checking the president's power? >> well, you know, the thing is, it's all written down, right? congress is supposed to handle a situation like this.

and so congress could be doing serious oversight and serious investigation. and if necessary, you know, leading to the logical conclusion this it could be commenting impeachment or the cabinet could have more serious discussions about the 25th amendment. but there is this weird dichotomy. as david ignatius pointed out a while ago, things in the country are pretty good. right now. but, on the other hand, we are one step way from being at war in venezuela or from precipitating some sort of military meltdown in pakistan or -- but wouldn't the constitutional crisis begin when an erratic move made by the

president? >> yeah. >>. >> i'm arguing that perhaps we're not in a constitutional crisis right now, but we may be a step or two away. >> what is erratic? a sweet is not a constitutional crisis. >> no, but the failure, i believe, of the institution that ought to be acting, the failure of congress to at least confront honestly the situation we're in now in terms of the executive branch, i think is a crisis. and i think -- and i think it's dangerous. it's dangerous for the country, it's damaging for the country and -- >> and for the presidency. >> i think vote erts ners need that. coming up, president obama is hitting the campaign trail

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so is this a christmas present or a birthday present? >> what's further away? >> christmas. >> it's been a long time. it's belated. >> john highlyman bought me a president for something. >> that's nice. >> i've never given joe a present ever before. so this was the cumulative present all wrapped up into one. >> and some people say they give me a gift and i get a tie. just don't buy me presents, okay? don't buy me presents. just love one another. and -- but you found this is e the -- as mike pence would say, this is the loadstar here, my

friend. this is an official 1973 original -- >> '6, i believe. >> no, 1973 is when "band on the run" came out. please, all things mccartney, just defer to me. paul mccartney, "band on the run" and by the way, i've got to say, the back, it was recorded in lagos, nigeria. and heilman and i, he recorded it. his band basically left him. he flew down with denny, linda. they go to lagos, record his greatest album. and basically, we're going to write a book about this. it's one of the most extraordinary days in rock history and it comes on the day, heilman that paul mccartney is releasing his 17th solo album today called egypt station and he's going to have some live streaming event somewhere in new york.

>> yeah. >> i have to say, the funny thing about this, i've been trying to give this shirt to joe all summer. you may be aware, joe has not been in the studio that much in the last -- >> what? he's been here. >> and the most important thing -- >> he's not been here all that often. so it's not like i timed it like that. >> and if you smell it, you can tell he only fell asleep -- >> wait, important distinction, you say that is an original? it comes from 1973? >> that is an original. >> don't -- let go of my t-shirt. god, man. >> the numbers are better than expected. the august payroll numbers coming out, a little better unanimous expected, 201,000 jobs

added in the month of august. a little higher, although june and july revised down, unemployment at 3.9%. i'll give you the good news which is maybely a loadstar for average earnings rose 10 cents, above 7 cents in july. we know is economy is strong. there's more open jobs than unemployed people. finally, wages are beginning slowly but surely to reflect that. that's what we want to see is not just a tight labor market, but a tight labor market that turns into people getting paid more for the job. i know joe scarborough is wildly underpaid. so a better than expected call it a economy on the run. 201,000, guys. >> quit that second job, willie. >> thank you, brian. >> oh, my gosh. thank you, brian. joining us now hugo gordon and the president and ceo of the

mecino group, a former deputy white house chief of staff and campaign manager for president barack obama's 2012 re-election campaign, jim macina back with us. good to have you. >> so we want to go back row, but let's go microin a couple of races. we've got some barn burners for historic reasons, possibly the first black governor in georgia, the firsts black governor in florida. at the same time going -- running against two dyed in the wool trumpists. it's about as big of a divide you can get. both of those races look like barn burners. what should we expect? >> i think you're going to see incredible turnout. what you're seeing on these local elections is unexpected democratic turnout that is above any models that people are putting together. so the question is that versus a historic nature of these candidacies. but you're still talking about, especially in georgia, a red state, a state that is turning blue but may not be blue yet. i think both of those races -- and, you know, you're from

florida. you know how much i'm obsessed with florida politics. no one, no one you know thought that an rue gillman was going win that primary. he was in fourth place in every poll. that goes back to my theory about why all polls suck. now he's the democratic nominee and now no one knows how this general election will play out. >> it is the obama formula. nobody can replicate it. but you have white progressives that usually white costal progressives who are culturally disconnected from rank and file black democratic voters. and then you have other candidates that are supposed to do better and bringing out the vote for minorities. but here, in georgia and florida, you really could put together the obama coalition of really high turnout, black voters as well as getting those progressives out. it looks like this year, at least, that's a big take away

for democrats. >> it's very true. and it's one of the gifts donald trump keeps giving us, right? right now, he's the unifying force that brings all of us together. i think the problem for the party is going to be in 2020 in the presidential primaries about where those splits in the party are and that's what you're going to kind of see. but right now, joe, you're exactly right. what you're seeing is we're all unified. everything is together and you're having both historic turnout and real consolidation with independent voters. what you're seeing is trump scares them in the midterms. >> these two races also show just how divided our primary system makes general elections. they're going to be a hell of a lot of people in georgia and florida and some conservative to moderate democrats looking at the choices and going, who do i vote for? i suspect at the end they'll default to putting a check on donald trump. but still, man, there is a --

there's a hole in the middle of that offensive line that you can drive a mac truck through with a moderate or conservative. >> i think that is absolutely right, joe. the american politics is becoming more and more divided. the middle ground snod holding and people are moving towards those extremes. the left, the dim can party is getting its own sea party movement built on bernie sanders from the last election and i think andrew gillum reflects that. i think in florida the chances are that he will be defeated even though he's showing strong right now. i think president trump is more popular in florida and has lost less of his support than he has in some of the other states that he won, the other swing states. i actually think there's a slightly better chance of the democrat winning in georgia. >> you know, i'll admit i don't

get my home state. by all measures, it is a more diverse state, it is a state that -- i always said donald trump wins florida, he wins the election because florida is such a diverse stais state. and we keep hearing puerto ricans are moving to central florida. orlando is going to be this huge democratic hub. is that just pollsters and pundits and democratic officials assuming because you're hispanic that is a vote in the democratic party? >> yes, and they're assuming wrong. of all the battleground states in florida, trump's numbers have always been better thantory states. >> why is that? >> i was going to ask you. i think it's one of the most interesting questions in american politics right now. part of it is he's fallen apart with latino voters in every

other state except for florida. but he still st getting a bigger number, mika, with women voters than any other battleground state. >> you also have more people going to florida every year. you have people leaving new york, other states going into florida. so you have residents, more and more residents that tend to be older and whiter. so that kind of, i think, holds it a little bit more. but my question to you is when you talk about turnout, like republicans, we know in midterms, we know we have to have better turnout. but for democrats, it seems this year when you look at some of the local races that democrats have a better chance of prospecting for new voters. yeah. >> and that they're showing up. and where do you see that going? >> so this is the problem democrats always have with non-presidential elections which is we have a much lower turnout of our base voters, young voters, single mothers, etcetera.

in these special elections, that's gone. you're seeing massive turnout of people who do exactly what joe talked about want to go put a break on trump. they are making sure they are going to put a break on trump. a friend of mine just ran and got exactly the vote he thought he was going to get by the number and finished in fourth place because the democratic vote was so much bigger than anyone thought it was going to be. now, the real question here isn't about democrats or republicans because i think both sides are going to turn their voters out. you saw president trump pushing this in my home state of montana. he needs to get these votes out. the question is where are independent voters going to go. and i think they're going to go about putting a break on the president and that's why you're going to see the house go blue. >> we saw some of that earlier this week about independence breaking. >> let me ask you about your former boss, president trump, making a big speech in champagne, illinois, today which is going to push off his terms in the midterms. going to ohio next week.

do you think he'll be more confrontational with president trump in his appearances than he's been previously? we saw whispers of it at the mccain funeral on saturday. >> no, not really. i think he's going to talk about the times we're in. he's been very honest when he disagrees with the president, especially on immigration and other issues. but i think he's going to work about turning the votes out you were just talking about and about having that discussion. i think it's a very smart to start in california. barack obama anticipates curr's rating in california is 84%. where is michelle going to go? because she's sitting in the 80s and everyone lovers michelle obama. >> good question. >> wondering if you could answer the question that we can't answer at the table and that is why do floridans continue to stick with this president a little bit more than -- well, a lot more than voters in pennsylvania, voters in

minnesota. you know, the upper midwest industrial states that went for trump but are now -- his re-elect is around 30, 31% in many of those states. >> i think in the upper midwest, one of the reasons why president trump was able to win and it was only by a few thousand votes by a number of different states was that he actually paid attention to them. and the democratic candidate, hillary clinton, simply ignored them and took them for granted. >> wait a second, so you're saying you have to visit a state to get the votes? >> it helps, i am told. >> the thing about florida is, there is a constant influx to the state of those who like the fact that you don't pay income taxes there. they're older, they're fleeing states like new york. so you don't go from new york to escape the taxes there or from new jersey to escape the taxes there and then vote for a guy who says he's going to raise hundreds of billions of worth of

taxes. >> that's a good point. welly, tell willie, tell us before you leave, heilman was going to get me the ty t-shirt of your guest this weekend on sunday today, but at the last second opted with -- >> i think you both would be happy with that t-shirt. my guest this sunday is lenny kravitz, the man who plays all the instruments and does the music. and look at him. he's just cool. >> up next, we'll go live to california ahead of president obama's big rally there tomorrow. plus, the government can hold immigrant children for no more than 20 days, but the trump administration wants to be able to hold them indefinitely. that new reporting is next on "morning joe." ood start packagi

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this is the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period. >> well, newly released documents obtained by the guardian through a freedom of information act showing official photos were edited. >> this man is not well. >> he made them add more people. the president intervened.

>> well, i think it was more the cropping of the photograph than adding people. >> come on. trump complained to the head of the national parks service that the initial images showed, quote, a lot showing that his crowd size was smaller than that of president obama's first inauguration. then white house press secretary sean spicer then spent much of the day repeatedly calling the national park service, quote in pursuit of more flattering photographs. this is what they were doing with their tile. eventually the government photographer edited the pictures to crop out areas that were not filled with enough audience members. >> that's amazing. jim, how many days when you were in the white house did you spend calling the national park service to get barack obama crowd sizes altered in photographs? >> zero. zero. first day i did, i'd be fired. >> of course you would. let me ask you quickly, we had a good jobs report. john heilman was just saying what's the likelihood you have an economy that's good and a

president with a prove approva in the mid-30s? >> historically, you just don't see this. the problem is, jobs reports don't matter. in the midwest, their lives haven't gotten better. they haven't had an actual raise in 20 years. so these jobs reports and every time president trump goes out there and sings praises, he loses those voters he needs the most because they're like, wait, what world are you living in? >> one more question on this point. because whenever i get my polls back, i wouldn't look at the numbers, i'd go straight to the -- see what's on people's mind. could you explain, if you had 100 verbates in the polls, how many would be talking about russia or robert mueller instead of the economy? >> zero. >> zero. >> both bases are obsessed -- zero voters. the average single mother has

2.6 jobs. he wants to know who's going to make his life better. and all this stuff with trump is scary. >> as we mentioned, former president obama is on the campaign trail. he will preview his message in an address in illinois. aides say he aims to frame the upcoming election as a choice between an inclusive vision of america or fearful one. tomorrow, he will hold a rally in southern california which is where we find cnbc editor at large john harwood, he's in anaheim. what are you looking forward to there? >> well, this is a perfect backdrop. because here in orange county, ancestral home of ronald reagan's conservativism, it is now nearly 50% nonwhite. hillary clinton became the first democrat in 80 years to carry it

last year. and there's a whole bunch of congressional races. he's going to be campaigning in this center. there are ten democrat possibilities, as they seem 23 seats. jim messina was talking about the former president, 74% in california. president trump is the remainder. he's in the 20s. although in orange county, he's around 40%, and it's a fascinating test. the economy's booming here. it's a high income county. big contrast on the issue of providing a check on trump. mimi walters, the republican incumbent, when i asked her about that, she said, well, look, if there's corruption, there are processes in place. my job is to focus on the policyings. katie porch, she's a former executive for investment firms. katie porter is an elizabeth

warren co-author and protegee and she says i'm going to go there and by the way let's have medicare for all. you talk about pocketbook issues. she said if you elect democrats, nancy pelosi becomes speaker, we'll have socialism and universal health care and universal health care is not popular in the district. katie porter says bring that fight to me. people do want health care. >> john, thank you very much. now to msnbc's correspondent jacob soberoff. you're focused on the separation issue. >> we have to be. i've been listening to you talking about how these hot-button issues that the national democrats might think are going to swing these districts are not going to be the ones to swing the districts if the districts do indeed swing. i heard willie asking the sheriff earlier about it. florida, you know, the idea that hispanics in florida are all going to go with democrats because the separation is just a foolish thing to think about.

i saw it, i was talking to a guy from florida earlier in the week. take a look at this. this is the temporary shelter the trump administration set up to house unaccompanied minors who came into the united states illegally, including many children who were separated from their families. today, there are still dozens of them inside. a few miles north of the detention facility, the area's congressman took me to a window serving locals their morning cuban-style coffee. there, i didn't hear the outrage that separations of a vote elsewhere across the country. can we bug you guys? what do you care about the most? >> i'm a believer we should allow immigrants to come in but do it the right way. legally. like i had to do it. >> just because it's a district full of immigrants doesn't mean you're going to hate that policy? >> no, exactly, you know, it's not that i like it, because it shouldn't, you know, you're separating families and it's got to hurt if you're a family man like me but as a parent, i would

have never put my kids in that position. >> you hear a lot of people with that opinion? >> yes. a balanced view, right, we have a big heart for immigrants in this community, but we want our immigration system to be coherent and legal and for people to respect our laws. >> so he just said it. he's in a tough position. family separations now indefinite intention, this new settlement regulation that the trump administration put in yesterday are not the things that are going to flip the district. they don't turn off those voters there. we even have new numbers. i think i can put the new numbers up on the screen. 416 kids separated as of yesterday. from the trump administration. despite that is largely hispanic district, this is not going to be the issue to flip the district. >> you heard the sheriff here saying she thinks the separation issue is going to be a huge

driving motivator. and that's why this is the year when texas finally is going to start to look blue. do you agree with that? >> this is not the year texas is finally going to look blue. that day is coming. it's going to be california in 10 or 20 years. not now. we're just not there. i do think there's one -- i agree with what you're saying. we were talking about this turnout. the turnout that really matters are the first-time voters or those who don't traditionally vote in nonpresidential elections. you look at the nevada senate race. that's an issue in the nevada senate race because it's all about whether she can turn her voters out. >> i was going to go to hugo. i'm curious what you think. because there's a lot of issues that the media's outraged by, that a lot of we'll just call eastern elites. not that they ever sit around this table of course. are outraged by. but this child separation issue

reminds me an awful lot of katrina. a lot of people from my church driving over that were huge bush fans. for about four weeks in katrina. they'd go over and saw what was happening over there and, you know, they pulled the bumper stick, the bush bumper stickers off their cars. they weren't going to vote for a candidate supporting nancy pelosi. i got a feeling in 2006 a lot of them stayed home. is that -- could that be where this issue is? >> it could be, joe, but i don't think that the separation issue is going to be particularly powerful. i think you heard in the interview just done that, you know, there was this guy saying look, we want legal immigration, you know, he wants it done but he wants it done right. i think there's a lot of people all over the country who know that parents and children are separated not just on immigration issues but when parents are arrested for crimes, they don't have their children with them. i think a lot of people will

think actually it's horrible when children are taken away from their parent, but there isn't any particular reason why illegal immigrants would be treated better than people arrested for other crimes all over the country so i don't think that's going to be a highly motivating factor, no. >> which is exactly what that voter, the hispanic voter, told the coppingressman. >> when you look at where the administration is now, we still have to keep a focus on these children. >> you can't see them. >> yes, you can't see them. where do you think if anything they'll be any changes in the next 60 days that could affect the election? >> you say the next 60 days. this flores settlement agreement that kept children out of indefinite children with their parents is the new focus of the administration. nothing's going to change within the next 60 day because of the public comment period. but they want to be able to keep children -- this is what we should all remember. there's 416 kids still in custody. on the other, all the future families that come into this country, they want to keep them

in indefinite, so it should be about that. even though they're coming illegally, in detention indefinitely. >> jacob, thank you. great jacob, the great jacob. >> it's an honor sitting next to you, sir. >> that does it for us this morning. >> how do you like this? >> i don't want to hear it. thank you very much. >> come on, ratner -- >> stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now, please. >> thank you so much, mika, thank you, joe. good morning, everyone. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today. starting with "it wasn't me." top officials pledge their allegiance to the president as the white house faces even more fallout from that anonymous "new york times" op-ed. meanwhile, the president is trying to sell it as a good thing. >> i think it's backfired.