that's a wrap of this hour of msnbc live. i'll see you at noon eastern. for now stay right where you are. it's time for a.m. joy with my friend joy reid. >> we will impeach him! but he's doing a great job. doesn't matter. remember that line. he's doing a great job. doesn't matter. it is a hell of a place in washington. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. it's been quite a week in our national reality show. next week could get worse for donald trump. bob woodward's book "fear" drops on tuesday, meaning more excerpts flooding the media he obsessively consumes.

an ongoing witch hunt which has administrative officials throwing each other under a bus. and barack obama to the campaign trail just in time for the midterms. >> we'll have more on bob woodward later in the show. but perhaps the most consequential thing happening right now for all americans, especially if you are a woman, an immigrant or someone who believes the president should not be above the law is the battle for brett kavanaugh. republicans are confident they have the votes to seat him. but my first guest says he knew brett kavanaugh during his years as a republican operative and in an op-ed he writes, i want to tell any senator who cares about our democracy vote no. joining me now, the author of that op-ed, chairman of the pac

american bridge 21st century. thanks so much for being here. >> good to be with you. >> i want to play you a little bit of the opening statement from brett kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing. take a listen. >> i good judge must be an umpire, a neutral and impartial arbiter who favors no litigant or policy. as justice kennedy explained in texas versus johnson, one of his greatest opinions, judges do not make decisions to reach a preferred result. judges make decisions because the law and the constitution as we see them compel the results. >> well, you write in your op-ed for nbc news that that's not true. that brett actually makes a cameo appearance of your mémoire. i describe him at a party full of zealous young conservatives. when the tv camera panned to

hillary clinton, i saw brett at that time, a key lieutenant of ken star, the independent counsel, mouth the word rhymes with witch. how did you know him and what was he like besides that? >> i was part of a small, close circle of young, ambitious conservatives being groomed for jobs in politics and media and brett kavanaugh was part of that group. that's how i knew him. i knew him professionally because at the time i was a conservative myself. i was working on a conservative magazine. we were both part of an anti-clinton movement. i also knew him socially, as i describe in that antidote there as we're watching the state of the union and he does mouth that word. when i saw that clip you just saw, he described himself as neutral arbiter and stressing his independence and saying he's

an umpire. i know he's no umpire. he's straight out of right field. >> and tell me about some of the other people in that circle because you write about a group of people, a lot of whom pretty well known in the media. who was among the circle that brett kavanaugh traveled in? >> sure. many of them quite prominent today. alex azar, the current health and human services secretary, he was working in the star investigation at the time. also an investigator on the house committee, really zealously going after the clintons. he's currently a member of congress from virginia. there are media personalities from fox. everyone knows matt drudge. this was the circle. and the point here, i think, is that i knew brett as a partisan warrior. his representation of himself now in black robes is just not who he is. i know who he was, and he was just like we were, engaged in

partisan politics, partisan war. he is in his bones a republican operative, and i think there are a couple things that i point out in this piece that i think show him to be really unfit for this office. one is his role as the kind of a point man for leaking when he was in the star investigation, leaking investigation to the press. now, that's something that a prosecutor doesn't typically do. it is kind of abhorrent behavior for a prosecutor, but they were engaged in a partisan political move against the clintons in that investigation. so they were strategically leaking. he played a role there. vince foster investigation, vince foster committed suicide. he was the white house lawyer. he was a friend of hillary clinton's. that investigation was closed by the first special counsel. when ken star took over, they re-opened that case. they spent a year and a half and millions of dollars terrorizing

the foster family for naught, to conclude again that he had committed suicide and wasted all that time and money on a political smear campaign. and then the third thing is, the paula jones case. now, i played a role originally in bringing paula jones to light when i was a conservative journalist, so i was really in the thick of that case. and there were a group of front lawyers for paula jones, but then there were a group of lawyers behind the scenes. we called them the elves. they were doing the real work. and those elves were conservative federalist society lawyers, just like brett was. i wasn't a lawyer, but i was an honorary member of the federalist society. there was a conduit of information going from the paula jones lawsuit folks as they were gathering information and identifying witnesses to the star investigation through george conway, who happens to be

kellyanne conway's husband, to brett kavanaugh. and in that way the star investigation was tipped off to the information from the paula jones case, and they used that to set a perjury trap for bill clinton. >> i will say that george conway has responded to that allegation you made that they were trying to funnel information from the jones lawsuit into the star investigation. he writes barack is a fabulist. i never spoke to him when he was working for star, let alone about the jones case. your response to that. >> you know, joy, i have been speaking out and writing about my experiences in the conservative movement for a number of years now when i think i have relevant information, as i think i do now. nobody successfully challenged anything i have ever said. george conway concedes in that tweet that he knew brett kavanaugh. i have multiple conversations with george conway about exactly what he was doing about his

attempt to manipulate the star investigation with the information he had from the paula jones case. and, so, i know what i know. he has a set of alternative facts. >> and lastly to you, david brock, you say here that any senator that cares about the country should vote no on brett kavanau kavanaugh. >> what i think it is, my piece is not about his views. one can have a debate about what his views are. my piece is about his behavior and it's about his character. and i think on that basis, behaving as a political partisan while a prosecutor, while he's supposed to be a dispassionate arbiter of facts, acting as a partisan warrior. the same with the jones case. i think it is a pattern. i think it shows really poor behavior for what you would want in a supreme court justice. that's why i say vote no.

>> do you believe he lied when he claimed that he is just a neutral caller of balls and strikes as a judge? >> yes. he's completely misrepresenting himself. there was some exposure of other things that he lied about, as some of the documents came out from the bush years. we don't have millions of documents, but some of the e-mails that did come out showed he lied in his first confirmation hearing. so, yeah, there is a pattern there, too. >> i'm out of time. but if you had all this information, why not come forward so you could have the opportunity to testify during those hearings? >> when brett was first nominated, it occurred to me that obviously i had had this friendship with him. it really wasn't, joy, until i saw him up there testifying as the neutral arbiter, as the umpire, as independent that i got -- i got upset about it, and i remembered and it all came back to me about who he actually was. that's when i decided to go public this week. >> thank you for your time,

david brock. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in my panel now. editor of abovethelaw.com. i'm going to go around the panel and get all of your reaction. you are at a disadvantage. you are not at the table with us. let me start with you. your reaction to david's claims about brett kavanaugh. >> i think it is undisputable that he is a republican operative. these aren't disputable facts at all. and i think that you see how hypocritical this whole process is when you think back to merrick garland. yes, we should think back to the blockade of merrick garland. if this were about thoughtful people calling balls and strikes, the republicans could have confirmed merrick garland who brett kavanaugh himself went out of his way was a really good and honorable judge. no, they want an id logical

majority on the supreme court. why? because they want to use the court as the last line of defense if progressive ever take power again. and you're seeing a period of conservative judicial activism. they went after liberal activism for years on the right. conservative activism that has among other things gutted the voting rights act, really weakened our campaign finance laws, undercut regulation. that's the kind of court they want. brett kavanaugh wouldn't be there if he weren't a conservative idealog. they have to think about that before they cast their votes. >> people get up and say, i just call balls and strikes. they all have a script. they just keep thinking that over and over again, i believe in precedent. no one is being honest about their actual views.

and this kind of background that he was in when david brock describes as a cold, cynical and ambition set of hard right operatives being groomed for bigger roles in politics, government and media, that is what is being seated on this court. >> absolutely. and just a day after serena williams match at the u.s. open, i would say that umpires are not neutral arbiters and just calling balls and strikes. i think that premise is actually ridiculous. they actually are impacting the outcome. in this particular context, though, he's now on record as lying twice in his confirmation hearings. he pretended to not know what the federalist society is, and he acted like he had never heard what the law firm is when all of us know what that law firm is, the president's personal attorney. i think his credibility on a number of different fronts is completely obliterated by his

performance. the bar was so low. all he needed to go do was be reasonable in these hearings, and he couldn't even do that. i think what democrats showed this week is they are willing to fight for the rights that will be lost if he is confirmed by releasing the appropriate documents. as you said, to expose the sham that is this hearing in the first place. >> it is not just the hearing. i almost feel that it's very hard to have faith in the idea of a supreme court. if it is just a super version of the house, right? if it is just an ultra partisan republican versus democrats body and republicans have shown this week that they're willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that they alone get to seat those justices and they can have a far right court, even as the country is trending in the other direction. >> this is their plan, the federal society, which claims to love institutions, has actually activity trying to drag the supreme court as an institution down into the muck with

congress. look, everything that -- by the way, kudos to david brock for putting his name on it because that's how truth comes out. everything we have been saying are great reasons not to confirm brett kavanaugh. he should be impeached because he lied twice to congress in his testimony in 2004 and 2006. we cannot have a judge -- beyond a supreme court judge, we should not have judges that have issues with their truthfulness, credibility and candor when talking to congress. the federalist society argument against him lying was, well, he might have lied. it wasn't legally perjury. is it too much to ask that a supreme court justice is precise in his testimony in front of congress? i don't think so. he's lied about his involvement in things. he has been involved in the spying issue, and he claims to not know that they were stolen documents, even though the

e-mail says spying in the top. there is more. i want to go through really quickly. >> sure. >> he is -- he has been on e-mail chains and it's been shown he's been e-mail chains where racest jokes were taken about. he was silent on that. again, he refuses to answer questions about trump's -- whether or not trump can be indicted. these are offenses, okay? and again, from a confirmation perspective, his stance on abortion is enough to not confirm him. but from a judicial institution perspective, how can we have a person on the d.c. circuit who cannot tell the truth in front of congress. the next thing that needs to happen is people try to disbar him from his position in d.c. and after we get through all of that we can have a vote on confirmation. >> the sort of sad reality is that none of that will happen because republicans are determined.

donald trump has put all sorts of people -- there is one that's gone down over racism, and that's it. republicans will give trump whatever judges he wants. >> that's where murkowski and collins are so important. they were willing to buck their party on defending obamacare. they do not seem willing on something incredibly consequential for two decades as kellyanne conway has said. this is something they really have to sit back on because they claim to be for open bipartisan processes. what we've seen with their party's handling of documents and the like, there is nothing bipartisan about these hearings. >> and brett kavanaugh used to prepare people to walk this gauntlet and tell them what to do, which is don't tell anybody the truth about your beliefs. he seems to -- well, he might get away with it.

we'll see. thank you very much. really appreciate you being here. next up, a white house described as crazy town and republicans fearing an anonymous op-ed is driving donald trump mad. an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. and all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. flonase sensimist. like concert tickets or a new snowboard. matt: whoo! whoo! jen: but that all changed when we bought a house. matt: voilà! jen: matt started turning into his dad. matt: mm. that's some good mulch. ♪ i'm awake. but it was pretty nifty when jen showed me how easy it was to protect our home and auto with progressive. [ wrapper crinkling ] get this butterscotch out of here. progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents. there's quite a bit of work, 'cause this was all -- this was all stapled. but we can protect your home and auto

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one after another, donald trump, he's lost it up here. you know, it's pretty tough.

i stand up here giving speeches for an hour and a half, many times without notes. and then they say he's lost it. yet, we have 25,000 people showing up to speeches. so i beat all these senators, all these governors, all these brilliant political minds. then i beat the other side. and then i listen, is he competent? i think i'm pretty competent, right? don't you think so? [ applause ] >> wow. in the wake of that anonymous op-ed and the white house witch hunt for the author, many are bracing for full-on trump melt down. according to "politico," some republicans fear the op-ed will make him crazy. the actual author of donald trump's book, the art of the deal. i'm surprised he let you put your name on the cover. >> it's another discussion. >> let's talk about this. i feel like every week we get another trump is losing it. it's just a consistent trump is

losing it. has anything changed in his behavior this week? >> i don't think materially it's changed because i think the big issue is that he's been way crazier than the general public has understood for a long, long time, forever. and certainly since he became president. >> i have to play -- i feel i have to play this. this is hillary clinton telling all about donald trump before he was elected. take a listen. >> donald trump's ideas aren't just different. they are dangerously incoherent. they're not even really ideas, just a series of bizarre rants, personal feuds and outright lies. he is not just unprepared. he is temperamentally unfit to hold an office that requires knowledge, stability and immense responsibility. >> what does it say about the

country that several members of donald trump's own team, his own staff, his own -- potentially his own cabinet agree with hillary clinton? >> it says that if you spend more than an hour with donald trump and you are anything but alex jones, you will conclude that this is a man who is off his rocker. all of those people in the white house believe that because they've spent that amount of time with him and obviously much more. and so it's only about the shift to assuming that the end justifies the means. and we have lost sight of the cost of a person who has so little character, so much decepti deception, we don't realize how much that drags us down. maybe we're starting to realize. and that is frightening. >> yeah. let me play you donald trump on fox news.

this is an interview that aired on friday talking about the anonymous op-ed writer may be someone from the deep state. take a listen. >> when somebody writes and you can't discredit because you have no idea who they are, usually you'll find out it's a background that was bad. it may not be a republican. it may not be a conservative. it may be a deep state person that's been there a long time. you don't know where. it's a very unfair thing. >> this is a man who used to pretend to be his own publicist and be the anonymous source for the tabloids in new york. he knows he did that. >> i think donald trump operates on two tracks and moves constantly between them. one track is a truly deluded guy who under pressure will say anything that pops into his head true or false and usually false. i think there is another part of him that has moments of lucidity, of recognizing that

raising the fears of people, that terrorizing the electorate is something that works to his favor. i think both of those two things. >> the washington post reports that trump aids were saying the sleeper cells have awoken. senior administration officials says he fretted after wednesday's op-ed that he could only trust his children. does he have friends? does he have a lot of associates? >> he has literally zero friends. he's never had a friend. that's for sure. what's extraordinary about this moment is that the white house believes that there might be as many as 100 potential people who would have been responsible for that. what does that tell you about their expectation about the loyalty of people and about the commitment of people to that administration? it means that they don't really believe that almost anybody is reliably on their side. >> yeah. are his children, in your

experience, on his side. >> i don't have direct experience with his children since they were young, but i believe those children live in terror of that man. they want his money, if he has any money. we'll find out when mueller gives his findings. but they want his money and they're terrified by him. they're also, like all children, desperate for the love of their parents. >> yeah. how does this end? not that you can foresee the future, but given trump's personality, his mental stability at this point, is he somebody who would leave office before his term? quit? resign? how does this end in your view? >> a person with his personality disorder, whatever you want to call it, the typical way that they go down is trying to bring as many people down with them as they can. and this is a man who has access to the nuclear codes. i hope fthere is somebody who i an adult in the room putting

space between those codes. the real question is in this race against time between democracy, the rule of law, the world we want to see and a person who is systematically out to destroy it, which will happen first? so i don't think it's so important whether he resigns. i think it is important whether however this ends we still have a country that is capable of moving forward. >> yeah. well, our new favorite saying on the show is scaring is caring. >> vote as if your life depended on it because it does. >> omarosa has live video she will be dropping on "the view" on monday. so that will be interesting. one of the journalists known for breaking the watergate scandal wide open takes us inside the trump white house. that's next.

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a book means nothing. it is a work of fiction. if you look back at woodward's past, he had the same problem with other presidents. he like to sell books. >> the same week "the new york times" published that op-ed describing what the author calls

a resistance. we got the first excerpt that spills all the tea that's left to brew in excerpts obtained by the washington post, woodward describes an administrative coup d'état. joining me now is timothy o'brian, ted lieu of california, and natasha bertrand of the atlantic. what do you make of the fact that according to the author of the new york times and according to bob woodward's book, we essentially have unelected white house staffers or senior officials in their own minds running the country instead of the president? >> good morning, joy. thank you for that question. i think what's important to take away is that they're consistent that donald trump is unfit for office. but i do disagree with the

tactics of the senior white house official who was anonymous. i think they should confront the president, try to get him to change. if he doesn't, then he needs to resign. the way our constitution is set up, it is not for a staff member to be a check and balance. ifs for congress and the republican congress has been complicit for far too lock and voters this november can make a choice whether they want to change that. >> do any of your colleagues on the hill come up to you ever and off the record say to you, we know that this is a problem and we're embarrassed we're not willing to do anything about it? >> yes. and there is a very interesting blog post by a conservative writer, eric ericson that came out last year and he recounts a conversation he had. and then had a conversation with him in a grocery store and unloaded on the president, said things i wouldn't even say. it's very clear to me we're all looking at the same reality.

some of my republican colleagues choose to lie about it. >> let me play for you the vice president of the united states being asked about the op-ed and discussions of invoking the 25th amendment. take a listen. >> one of the claims made in the op-ed is that there have been discussion of invoking the 25th amendment to even remove the president from office. have you ever been part of a conversation about that? >> no, never. and why would we be? >> i mean, how alarming is it to you that that question is on the table to the vice president of the united states? >> again, i think it is important to have a check and balance. we need a real congress that can do that and the fact that some senior white house officials had discussions about the 25th amendment should really disturb many americans. we are the greatest nation in the world. it is just embarrassing to see the chaos at the white house. i look forward to seeing

woodward's book when it comes out on tuesday. >> tim, here's bob woodward sunday morning, earlier this morning. he's talking about this point made in the book that in order to prevent donald trump from signing dangerous orders like pulling out of a free trade agreement with south korea that has huge implications for national security for our 28,000 troops are there for bigger arrangements that trump insisted on pulling out of even though he was advised not to, this is bob woodward talking about staff taking the papers off his desk to stop him from doing it. >> so he wouldn't sign them because they realized that this would endanger the country. >> how do they get away with that? >> he doesn't remember. if it's not on his desk, if it's not immediately available for action, it goes away. >> he doesn't remember, and it sounds to me as what's being described here as a president

that's dangerous and maybe impaired. >> and has attention deficit disorder. we already know that when anyone in the executive branch wants to get a point across to him, they don't give him things to read. they draw pictures. they give him drawings. he's not a guy who reads. he doesn't pay attention to detail. the only thing in fact that he really zeros in on when details are involved is his own reputation, his own standing in the public eye. that's why he is reacting to the woodward book in the way he has. this whole notion of his team has come out that it's horrendous to be using anonymous sources. it is grow decembering to put things on the record anonymously. trump is a 72-year-old man that spent the last five decades anonymously leaking gossip about family members, enemies, business associates. he's played this game himself. and about his ex-wives.

he would tell me gossip about corporate ceos. he would whisper in my ear, ask me to point this stuff. now they have launched a mole hunt to find out who the source. >> you have a couple of points in the book. the woodward book says it recounts mattis was particularly exasperated and alarmed at one point dealing with donald trump. i believe this was over the same south korea issue saying the president acted and had the understanding of a fifth or sixth grader. john kelly, his chief of staff, supposedly said he's an idiot. it is pointless to try to convince him of anything. he's gone all the rails. i don't know why any of us are here. rex tillerson didn't last. he lasted longer than a lot of people thought he would. is there any reporting that you have that these two gentlemen may be on their way out rn, jim

mattis and john kelly? >> we've seen reports certainly that the president has been drawing up, you know, a list of people who might replace jim mattis. jim mattis of course has been one of the few people that's always commanded the president's respect and in that way he's been kind of immune from the president's attacks. but given these quotes in the book and given the fact that the president is just so -- he's so sensitive to people criticizing him, it does not seem like it's likely that these people will last that much longer in their positions or that they even want to, frankly. i think one of the biggest take-aways from this book, which i read last week cover to cover, it's fantastic. it's a really interesting read. it is that people are really out to save themselves. when this is all over, the leaks that we see coming out of this white house are not an accident. you can criticize the anonymous op-ed writer for not having the guts to really resign in pro

test and put his name on this op-ed. but there is an attempt for these leaks to change the president's actions. that's why this has been one of the leakiest white houses in history. a lot of those leaks have been coming out of the pentagon, going back to jim mattis. we saw that the defense department basically they leaked the fact this massive military parade in washington was going to cost almost, you know, millions and millions of dollars more than the president had initiallie lly estimated. i think there is a concerted strategy here. whether it is taking things off the president's desk or leaking them to the media for the administration to save the president -- save the country from the president and the president from himself. i think that also what you see in the book is this sense that the president really cannot obviously tell the truth. there are segments in there about this mock interview with the mueller investigation -- with john dowd and the mueller investigation where we cannot -- the president cannot seem to

remember any of the biggest moments in his administration. for example, he's asked about mike flynn and the circumstances surrounding his firing, and he says i don't recall. i can't remember. and then he goes into this big rant about jim comey. so going back to your question about whether or not we're going to see some of these people fired, it is very, very possible. again, jim mattis is reportedly on the outs. but i do think there is a strategy here among the people who are in the administration to provide a check that congress just is not providing. >> yeah, indeed. another issue coming out of this book -- there is so much in here. but also the political risk of this bookmaking him out to be a phony to some of his own supporters. it is clear if there is anything he could do to turn them off. there was this issue during the campaign of hillary clinton calling trump supporters or saying that some of them will deplorable, that some of the people supporting him are

deplorable. according to bob woodward, on page 216, trump told rob porter about jeff sessions, the attorney general of the united states. and this is going to be offensive. this is a term we don't use anymore. he said of him, this guy is mentally retarded. he's a dumb southerner. the idea that he talks that way, that he previously made fun of marla maples for being southern, makes fun of the accents, could that wind up rebounding on him? >> it certainly can't help. you will hear southerns coming out saying what does this guy really think of you? and so i do think that has -- you know, it is not a decisive effect, but i think it chips away again at trump's claims that he is for working people, that he is for average people, that he loves his base.

well, he loves his base when they vote for him, but he doesn't have any real e speresp for him. what you're seeing is a lot of people in the administration are, a, perhaps trying to prevent further damage. but i think there are a lot of people here who went in, who are now trying to cover their reputations for the future, who are saying, well, you know, yeah, he was a disaster. we went in, but we were trying to protect the country. and i think that's what happens when an operation like this -- although, there's never been an operation quite like this in the white house -- begins unraveling is people move very quickly to protect themselves. it's as if everyone is behaving like donald trump, who only thinks of himself. that's what you're seeing here. the advantage of that is that we, the public, thanks to

journalism get a lot of information. that's the good side of it. >> very quickly, i need to ask you this question. just based on your knowledge of donald trump and his mental makeup, where do we go from here? he's on this witch hunt to find the op-ed this week. more stuff is coming out this week. >> he doesn't care about the long-term damage he inflicts on the people around him or the country. he is not going away. one of his core strengths historically is that he is a survivor. he's able to ride through the consequences of his own bad behavior. and i think the other thing that's going on here that people really have to pay attention to is when he gets cornered, he doesn't go away. he lashes out. and i think what he's going to do here is respond more aggressively through the machinery of government and through the media to wage war on his critics. >> it is not an easy way to get jeff sessions to comply with your witch hunt if you're calling him a dumb southerner.

thank you both very much. coming up in our next hour, this week in sports, colin kaepernick and serena williams, we, we are going to talk about it. but first the next edition of our midterm series. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands?

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when there is a vacuum in our democracy rkt, when we're n stepping up, other voices fill the void. but the good news is in two months, we have a chance to reis store some sanity in our politics. >> well, with 58 days until election day, here is another edition of our series ten to watch where we take a look at some of the critical races. today we look at the wisconsin senate race for governor where tony evers is challenging scott walker. this is a real fight for walker whose claim to fame is crippling the state's public sector unions. joining me is scott ross from one wisconsin now. all right. so scott, tell me what is happening here with scott walker, why is he falling behind

to tony evers? >> scott walker is a 25 year career politician who will say and do and a spend anything to win an election. he has raised and spent $100 million in his runs for governor. he has taken money from everybody. he has been taking money from the nra for 25 years. he's gotten about $3.5 million from them. and the question is, scott walker running the scorched earth campaign, is it because the voters are finally done with scott walker. and after a guy who ran twice for state office before he could legally represent a car, has th political road come to an a end for walker. >> that has been asked before. after he signed that bill crippling the state's public sector unions, it was thought that democrats were going to be able to exact their revenge but he was reelected. so does wisconsin have enough of a democratic base to win statewide? if they couldn't oust him then, how would they oust him now.

>> i think here is the big thing. after again walker has been governor for eight years now. he ain't the same guy. walker ran in 2010 with a campaign that said i drive a 1998 saturn and i take a brown bag lunch to work with my ham sandwiches. we did a bunch of research and found that since scott walker dropped out of the presidential race in 2015, he has flown the state plane 1,000 times at a cost on of $1 million doing things like having himself picked up after he had a haircut. or flying himself to a -- back home so he could go to a football game. this is not the same scott walker who was elected eight years ago. and given the fact that the atmosphere is so toxic because scott walker has been such a loyal soldier for donald trump, people are excited about tony evers. they are excited about his running mate. and scott walker is runninging a scorched earth campaign to try to win this last one.

>> very quick before we go, a little bit about tony evers in here, but scott walker tweeted about standing for the national anthem. and none of this standing in the locker room either, be honorable, blah, blah, blah. basically doing a donald trump. is that going to help him? >> well, when he went to that well, it was obvious that scott walker knows that he is in trouble. tony evers has stood up for kids his entire career fighting for education, fighting to make sure our kids have the chance. and you notice, walker went after tony evers' running mate mandela barnes. and mandela barnes responded with a picture of him in a colin kaepernick shirt. democrats are clearly not going to take the bait with scott walker and when he hits, they will punch back and punch back hard. >> i'm assuming mandela barnes is african-american? >> he is indeed. and a he is a made lineillennia. and there is a ticket with experience and youth that is energizing people across wisconsin about the issues that

really matter to people. whether it is student loan debt, family medical leave, child care, all those sorts of things that really are the pocketbook . and walker has a real problem here because he is climbing uphill for once. and we've never seen this late where the polls are actually him being down and i think that is a testament both to walker's weakness, but also strength. >> that looks like he is outside the margin of error too, that poll. scott ross, thank you very much. our expert on all things wisconsin. appreciate your time. more a.m. joy after the break. absolutely not paying an annual fee. discover has no annual fees. really? yeah. we just don't believe in them. oh nice. you would not believe how long i've been rehearsing that. no annual fee on any card. only from discover. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist relieves your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it helps block six key inflammatory substances.

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. a hand for the two competitors who played in this finals match. >> i know you guys were here rooting and i was rooting too, but let's make this the best moment we can and we'll get through it, but let's give everyone the credit where credit is due. and let's not boo anymore. we're going to get through this and let's be positive. so congratulations, naomi. no one booing. >> a week after nike announced that colin kaepernick would be the face of the 30th anniversary of its "just do it" ad campaign triggering backlash, the #boycott nike and people burning their own shoes. another moment rocked the sports

world saturday when serena williamspenalized a game for calling the chair umpire a thief. the fans booing and play delayed before naomi osaka of japan wrapped up a 6-2, 6-4 victory for her very first gland slrand title. she was advisably upset, the first japanese woman to win a grand slam title. >> i've seen other men call other umpires several things, and i'm here fighting for women's rights and for women's equality and for all kinds of stuff. and for me to say thief and for him to take a game? it made me feel like it was sexist remark. he has never took a game from a man because they said thief. for me it blows my mind.

>> joining me now is serial xm director, and also jameill smith of rolling stone, and also our brand consultant. thank you all. i'm all in my feelings about this thing. i didn't see the match live because my cousins were in town. and so i was just hearing about it on twitter. and then watching the clips later. and i was really stunned. we both played tennis growing up. i was doned by t edstunned by t the line umpire was behaving. and it felt like it marred what was otherwise an incredible moment of brown and black girl magic. you've sack ca have osaka who i japanese. what are your thoughts? >> two women of color having what should have been an amazing moment for both of them no matter who won or lost. and it was marred by a man's choice. that happens every single day in america. and i think that in this

particular context, i've never, ever seen what happened yesterday to serena williams happen in tennis. and i would say there were three violations that this umpire decided and chose to call against serena williams, two were arbitrary and i think wrong. one she broke a racket, that happens all the time. that is a warning. and again, the third violation, he absolutely made the wrong call. he felt offended because she called him a thief and demanded an apology. and as a black woman, you know, there are so many moments where you are actually wronged. where i feel like serena was wronged in this situation. and wanted an apology. and you don't get it. and that makes you very upset, joy. >> right. >> and so i can relate to serena in that particular moment. and he felt like a woman should not talk to him in that tone. that is what happened yesterday. >> and kurt, you had a tweet that has gone pretty viral. you tweeted context for serena williams appropriate reacts. think about how male star

athletes are perceived when they react to a ref's call, breaking bats, throwing mouth guards, tirades. they are hailed for their passion, competitive spirit, et cetera. expound on that please. >> i just had a piece go up on "usa today".com talking about this. when you look at any championship type scenario, there are flashes of intense figures posing, gesturing. draymond green flexing. and they are celebrated and it is called passion, intensity, competitive spirit. they are hailed and celebrated for that show of emotion. the idea that this referee felt he was verbally abused because a serena williams in a very calm, succinct, control mannled manne pointed out that he had robbed her of a game is absurd. how many times do we see athlete, superstars yell, spit, verbal tirades with profanity-laced that you you

can't enair ven air on tv. not won't did she lose her composure. not once can you say that anything that she had said is anyway really objectionable in tone or in rhetoric. what happened was a complete miscarriage of justice and ridiculo ridiculous. >> funny you should mention male athletes behaving in ways that are outside the box. let's go to tennis. i've been watching tennis since i was a kid. love the game. and i'm old enough to remember, not the only one on this panel, old enough to remember one jimmy connors. let's play a little jim any cmy connors in the u.s. open. he is screaming at the umpire named david littlefield. here it is. in case you can't understand, he said you you are an abortion. and this is a little context from "the guardian." it should not became clear that connors had gotten carried away

with his own under dog story. i'm playing my butt off and you are doing that, get your ass off the chair, you are a bum, you are a bum. remarkably connors was not sanctioned for the abuse which included littlefield being called an abortion among other things. the umpire chose not to report him. let's give exhibit b, and that would be john mcenroe who was famous for his outbursts -- >> you can't possibly in your wildest dreams think that ball was in. answer my question! the question, jerk. what did i say? please tell me. >> i mean this is a double standard of epic proportions. i'll go to kwame first and then jameill. >> you you showed the connors clip, you showed the mcenroe clip. we also know andre aggasi carried on in this way.

and they are not sanctioned. i know as a black male i have to modulate the base this my voice or how i approach a situation or move into a room just based on my size and my color. and i know that is something that i can definitely emulate and feel the pain that i see that serena has in trying to address these issues. i know that serena has been an advocate for female pay, equity, she has been an advocate to making sure that women and working moms are recognized and so i continue to stand behind her and support her and realize that we are in this double standard conundrum that we really have to work through. >> and jameill, this particular guy, mr. ramos, has been down this road before. back in 2016, this is according to larry brown sports, at the french open ramos asked venus williams to tell her coach to stop giving her hand signals. venus said she wasn't cheating or looking at her coach. the video looks almost

remarkably like what happened to her sister yesterday. >> and i'm trying to imagine during the super bowl tom brady being penalized for yelling at a ref and having the ref then put three points on the board for the other team. that is essentially what happened here. best player, potentially the best player in the history of tennis being treated as though she is somebody who is out of control. i saw headlines that said that she melted down. >> lots of them. >> and that is complete misunderstanding, not only just of black anger, but black women's anger specifically. and i wonder if we are not allowed to express ourselves in the field of battle so to speak, on the court, on the sidelines, where in fact can we be angry. and that is the question that comes out of the situation for me. >> women in general, right? we were having that conversation about elizabeth warren in the makeup room. that people -- she's like a mom,

flight but a right? but any expression. serena williams told her she couldn't wear her cat suit, you have to be frilly. you are playing a power sport in which men are allowed to emote, but women are supposed to dantd i dainty. she has been called a gorilla, compared to a horse, who has been shamed for her body. what hasn't happened? booed as well. she has boycotted for years. so she has a lot of reasons to be angry, but i thought she was quite controlled. she didn't curse. she didn't threaten him. she expressed herself. >> she stood up for herself in a way that so many black women have to do every day. and that is why you get emotional. viscerally felt that moment because i've been in that exact situation where something happens to you, that is wrong, you try to stand up for yourself and in the moment you get a little emotional because you you you are trying to keep your emotions in check. so it actually makes you more emotional in the moment as we

saw with serena yesterday. and again, it is not just women in the context of sports. it is women generally when you're walking down the street and a mantles you to smile because a smiling woman makes everyone feel comfortable. we can't actually just have no expression on our face. i'm told all the time to smile or that i look mad if i'm not smiling. but maybe i'm just thinking about something that is not happy. how do you know? i think it is a double standard for women where we have to be ladylike in every situation even when we're in the highest levels of competitive sports. and also in our regular and ordinary live, right? and i think that has to stop particularly when it comes to black women because oftentimes we're deemed angry when we're not even raising our voices. i've been called hostile when i haven't even raised my voice, joy. and so i think that there is a racist and an ugly history to this. but in this particular moment, we have to call it out, name it just like serena did yesterday and say that hopefully the next

woman does not have to go through the same thing. >> kwame. >> yeah, and i would add to what you are saying into the current supreme court hearings. i know senator kamala harris asked judge kavanaugh the question can you think of a single instance where the federal government has the power to regulate a man's body. and the judge responded i cannot think of a law like that. so if you think of the same situation within sports, within business, you know, we're not regulating the way men behave, we're not regulating the way they conduct themselves. and so why is this different from a supreme court justice or any other venue. we have to figure out a way to level the playing field so everyone is judged and allowed to bring their passion and their full selves to work. >> and this judge also ruined the moment for ms. osaka. she is playing her idol. and it was ruined for her as well. >> and what is remarkable that in these moments, facing potentially a record

achievement, a rehe ine serena h with -- williams went out of her way to making that moment special for osaka. i can't imagine any male athlete having the presence of mind do that. they would have stormed out, hitting things in the locker room. and she stood there poised, generous, a true champion and tried to do everything she could for osaka and for the sport that she belongs to. she knew the scrutiny that was going to befall her and be the subtd o subject of unfair sexist comments and i can't believe she had that composure. >> yeah, it was really wonderful. sort of a moment of women solidarity that was really lovely. jameill. >> yes, i think so often women especially black women are coached to apologize in moments when they have been wronged. and so i think that that actually seemed like the most natural moment, you know, of

courseserena was going to be gracious. so often women arecompelled to be gracious in moments when they have been the offended party. so i think what she did, she saw the future of her sport last night on the court opposite her and she wanted to make sure that she did not, you know, stoop as low as the umpire did and violate the spirit of that sport. >> and i wonder even as far as the rules, i don't know if anybody on the panel knows, because there have been -- rafael in a dad had problnadal this same guy, if he can be prevented from officiating again. i'll give the woman the last word on this because i do think that we're talking a lot about serena. twitter has been pretty vish ci to her. and interesting how it goes down the racial lines. but i'm wondering if there is any teachable moment, i hate to use that trite term, but is

there is a teachable moment? >> absolutely. look at the language used to describe her behavior. she melted down, she lashed out. it is always about the very aggressive behaviors of a black woman and not the behavior of the umpire. additionally, though, i think there are a lot of white men, majority of white men in my mentions saying she broke the rules. this is the perfect example of how rules are arbitrarily applied. we see this in criminal justice all the time. there are rules. and the umpire chose to apply them in a different way to serena williams because he felt hurt because she demand an apology and a woman, she certainly do that. so he needed to put her back in her place. and that is why this was a moment that was sexist because he would not have done that if she was a man. >> let's have billie jean king get the ultimate last word. when a woman is emotional, she is hysterical, the legend tweeted. and she is penalized for it.

when a man does the same, he is outspoken and there are no repercussions. thank you for calling out this double standard. more voices are needed to do the same. and you can add that you are not supposed to know the name of the umpire nep are suppo umpire. they are supposed to be quiet and silent. thank you all very much. and now, coming up next, trump's favorite news network is falling down on the job. its job of protecting him from bad news and making him feel awesome. more on that next. i'm ken jacobus, i'm the owner of good start packaging. we distribute environmentally-friendly packaging for restaurants. and we've grown substantially. so i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy. and last year, i earned $36,000 in cash back. that's right, $36,000. which i used to offer health insurance to my employees. my unlimited 2% cash back is more than just a perk, it's our healthcare. can i say it?

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the latest active resistance is the op-ed published in the failing "new york times" by an anonymous, really anonymous gutless coward. >> struggle is so real. donald trump's aimful struggle to pronounce the word anonymous may be the least of his worries because after days of headlines from bob woodward's new book on white house chaos to anonymous op-ed claiming there is basically a shadow government, fox news failed to carry out their prime directive, make donald trump look and feel awesome all day every day. and the ousted fox news executive now directing the white house press shop reportedly took the brunt of

trump's wrath because of it with the new york times reporting that trump spent daelays days w about it. and so thank you all for joining us. gabe, you have a great piece out that says that everybody knows that everything in the op-ed is true. >> no, this is clearly a case and everyone knows inside fox news is true just that they declined to say it on tv. going back to the bill shine point, this highlights the fact when donald trump hired him, bill shine had no communications experience. he was a television programmer, rog roger ailes' lak ckey. so not surprising that he doesn't have a plan for this. >> and you say fox news know it too. here's what they are saying on tv. >> whoever this anonymous super

patriot is who wrote this anti-trump hit piece in the "new york times," i would argue dangerously published, is nothing more than a swarm sewer creature who can't stand that there is a new you sheriu creature who can't stand that there is a new you sheriew sher >> a coward hiding, hasn't got the guts to come out in public. frankly, he should resign. >> and it isn't working. donald trump's approval rating is still an average of 40. >> yeah, three straight national polls, he is under 40%, he is back to where he was kind of post charlottesville when he was siding with nazis. so there is a serious problem. the white house is completely freaked out by anonymous. they seem way more concerned than the woodward book, which is weird because they both tell the same tale. but communications-wise, they don't have a single surrogate who isn't seen as a laughingstock outside of that 32% base. i mean bill shine basically runs

around as bill hannity's producer. he doesn't really offer anything. so i think the crack in the wall and the reason they are freaked out about the anonymous, i think the crack in the wall of the base may be if some of them start to believe he is actually senile. trump can be as racist as he wants, he can be as misinformed. i think some of them think he is not all there mentally, then they start to crumble and that is the only way he gets to 36% if he starts to lose some of those people. >> and that is the thing, the reason that state run -- real state run media works is that there is no alternate sources of work. you can only see that. there is no way any other information can get in. and while trump base voters may choose to self select only fox news or breitbart or whatever it is, other things can creep in. and this is one of the places where i think the woodward book might be more damaging to his

base, calling jeff sessions a dumb southerner. and maggie haberman tweeted on out that former deputy edit are tore for page six recalled trump horse trading to kill a potential story about him making marla maples, his second wife, return two gold lexus cars would telling the news divorcing maples and called her family dumb southerners. is that the kind of information that can bleed outside of trump's state run tv? >> i'm not sure that it even relevance. i mean look at all the other groups that trump has insult that had have had no effect in terms of the hardcore base. veteran, immigrants, americans in general, disabled, on and on and on. what trump is trying to do and what a lot of these books about him accomplish is cover up crime with scandal. trump is in the middle of an extremely federal probe into criminal misdeeds. and what he would like do i think is distract it with things

that are not illegal. they may be immoral, but not illegal. and the other thing that all these books accomplish, whether intentionally or not, is to cover up consolidation ever e s. and the most dangerous thing we face is crime, emergence of a one party state that feels like it is boof the law. and if something makes it feel like there are other concerns that are not technically illegal, then that is actually beneficial to trump and his backers. >> and i wonder if there is a sense within the white house that nothing can hurt him, even though there is reporting business insiders saying the dumb southerner thing may be hurting trump in alabama, who knows. but to her point, if the real danger is bigger and more existential, you also have reporting that the things we're hearing out of the woodward book could hurt the relationship between trump and jim mattis. if there is one person in the

administration that genuinely deserves to be maybe fitted for a super dlman cape, it him. and then you would see trump doing more and more that would be actually dangerous. >> yeah, i reported last week the woodward book axccelerated the conversation about jim made the tis a the -- mattis and john kelly leaving. and that has been one of the few breaks on this president. so sort of the more sunlight we shine inside this white house, the danger the crazier it makes this president. >> does it actually matter who the writer eof that op-ed is? >> the key thing is that they are providing by all accounts accurate information. we could have a whole debate on whether this person is a coward for not coming forward and resigning and things like that. but hopefully the press doesn't get too obsessed with this garm of let's find out who it is.

it doesn't really matter. what is important is we have a dysfunctional deeply dysfunctional white house. we have people stealing papers off trump's desk so he doesn't harm the country. and again going back to what sean hannity is saying, secret service should investigate, right? trump wants the department of justice to investigate. this has hit a nerve for whatever reason. and again, i feel like this message, this narrative that trump might be not functioning or is senile, i think they think that is the thing that could really hurt them. >> and i think -- the team and i had this debate. if donald trump is going in an increasingly authoritarian direction, if he is increasingly desperate, if he is embarking on a witch hunt to find this anonymous person and the press is playing the power game with him, figuring out who it is, i wonder if then that becomes a dangerous pursuit in and of itself because it feeds him continuing to try to hunt for this person in ways that are

destabilizing and authoritarian. >> absolutely. i think that is what this op-ed will accomplish whether intentionally or not. it is a pretext to a purge. a purge of internal staffers who maybe there are some people in there doing a good job that he might actually want to get rid of that are not the people who wrote the op-ed. and also an attack on the media. it validates his conspiracy theories about the deep state. and i think it was really irresponsible of the "new york times" to print it. it validates -- doesn't validate his attacks on the media, but certainly gives fodder for those who do not want a free press. he does not want investigative inquiries into his crimes. he does not want people to be able to speak freely and criticize him. and it is essential for our democracy that we do. and so yes, this op-ed is irresponsible, it is dangerous, stupid as a piece unto itself and it could cause a lot of damage in the weeks to come. >> never forget -- the book is called "fear" because of a quote from trump that that is what

leadership is, leadership is fear. invoking fear in people, that is what he thinks is leadership. >> all right. thank you all very much. more "a.m. joy" after the break.

coming up on "a.m. joy,"

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what law was broken here that the attorney general needs to investigate? >> it depends. there could be and there could not be. and so you don't know that and i don't know that. >> so he has ordered the

attorney general -- has heeded the investigation of who wrote the article? >> i won't talk about that. he has said publicly that he thinks that we should find out who this person is. i don't believe in giving in person oxygen, but we all want to know. >> so it is possible that he has given an order to the department of justice to investigate this? >> he has said publicly what he feels. >> the white house is still reeling from the fall outfrom the anonymous op-ed suggesting that the department of justice should investigate who wrote it. but russia gate 12still looms large. and that could put a hole in the no collusion. >> do you think when the entire mueller investigation is finished that they will g demonstrate that there was collusion between the trump campaign, between trump advisors and the russians? >> you know what, i have no idea. all i can say is that my testimony might have helped move

something towards that. but i have no idea. >> all right. let's just go around the horn real quick. the idea that george papadopoulous thinks his testimony may move us closer to and say this not that potential conspiracy. let's go to you first, jameill. >> i think that is the word that we need to be using here. search between the nfl and trump where everyone is saying no collusion when there is all that evidence that there is. so we're getting this -- you know, this guy coming out and saying that he is sorry. i do wonder if george papadopoulous would be sorry had he not been caught. i do wonder if he would be so forthcoming had he not been compelled to testify. i just wonder if the justice may be done here, but the real problem may still remain. >> kurt, what do you manage of trump's campaign world now having to cut plea deals? >> remember when he was only going to hire the best around

him and here we are, where almost every single person that has been a part of the trump organization, trump campaign and trump white house finds themselves either under indictment, pleading guilty, going jail or trying to avoid jail. and it is not just an isolated incident here. this is and on going opattern that we're seeing. and we see white house trying to bat it down, well, he didn't know this person, he didn't talk to that person, this person had no real influence. you can only get away with that for so long before people realize this was a systemic problem, a criminal enterprise. >> and you have to have known somebody that worked on your campaign. and last point on this, did it seem to you that the sentence on george papadopoulous, 14 days, was awfully short meaning that this is either a quite generous prosecutor or he provided something really significant and helpful to them? >> well, i was on yesterday with mimi who pointed out that it was really the judge's discretion

that allowed the sentence to be so might be or and that robert mueller actually asked for a harsher sentence. >> but only 30 days. >> yeah, not a year or two from n. prison. but i think george papadopoulous is right saying that his testimony was a part of the building block to make the case. and we know that just based on public reporting. the idea that there is no collusion is there is ample evidence of collusion and that the trump campaign was willing and able to go to a meeting with russians to get dirt on hillary clinton which is the very definite niio a conspiracy. >> let's switch gears a bit to this idea of this op-ed writer. now, i said my opinion a little bit that whoever it is, could be hundreds of people, could be any republican in washington, but the important point seems to be this idea that someone is attempting to run the government who was not elected to run the

government. attempting to circumvent the powers of the president for themselves. so that actual ily might be an important thing that we need to think about as a democracy. so i want to play you -- let's do the parlor game. mike pence is an interesting morning on television. because if it is someone in position to potentially take power, we want to know that that person is not trying to do so without an election. here is mike pence on fox news sunday oig ssaying he was willi take a lie detector test. >> i would agree to take it in a heartbeat and would submit to any review of the administration. >> you you think the administration should do that? >> that would be a decision for the president. >> easy to say because i can't think of a single politician, they don't write anything. so of course you didn't write it. they get an aide to write it. so, yeah, you don't sit down and write an op-ed. so that is an easy thing do. but here is the second bite at the apple.

this is vice president mike pence on cbs "face the nation" on that same op-ed. the initial interview, you will hear two bites, first is the initial interview. and then he asks to come back so he can clarify his answer because i guess he wasn't satisfied with the first go-around. >> so you don't think anyone on your staff since they are calls themselves a trump appointee had anything to do with this? >> i just -- i wouldn't know. and i really would hope not. >> i asked you earlier if anyone on your staff wrote this op-ed. have you asked your staff? >> well, i thought you were speaking about the administration staff. let me be very clear, i'm 100% confident that no one on the vice president's staff was involved in this anonymous editorial. >> and you asked them? >> you know, honestly, i don't have to ask them.

because i know them. >> thought, panel, anyone? >> mike pence is a curious case to me because i think he is the one person that president trump could not fire and yet he shows this complete complicity, he is c he acts as if his loyalty is to trump, not the nation. he serves us, the people. and being willing to take a lie detector test is an extraordinary precedent that he would set not just for this administration, but for future administrations. and i think that he is not really taking that into consideration or doesn't care. i think that he is more worried about pledging allegiance to the united states of donald trump and avoiding that treason label rather than getting the truth out. we can't rely upon him knowing his own staff so well that he doesn't have to ask them. >> and obviously mike pence has

a referential tone toward donald trump. his chief of staff once floated the idea of purging anti-trump republicans and having donors cut them off if they aren't slavishless devoted to donald trump. and yet omarosa floated a list of her potential suspects. the bridgegate fall guy. bill stepien. nick ayers. and there might have been more. it is interesting to think that perhaps interesting if it is someone in position of a kons tug constitutional office or could power. >> so it is important to find out who this author is. because if they are part of the line of succession, you could make the case that something more nefarious is going on here. and the american people have a right to know. there is a reason why we have

elections and transparency in our election process, so that a coup d'etat doesn't happen behind closed doors. now, the vice president hear no evil see no evil speak no evil bit is absurd. as a former staffer, someone who used to write columns and pieces for members of congress and elected officials, i can tell you if there was any suspicion that i had written something for my boss and placed it in the "new york times," my boss would be the first one to caulk walk say did you do this. so it is laughable to think that he hasn't had that conversation or even more revealing if he habit. almost a. as if maybe he thinks it could be and he doesn't want any idea. he wants total deniability here. i think we need to find out who this person is because it is impossible to assign motive. >> and by the way, this person quotes a top administration official. normally you don't quote someone

else. but whoever they quoted know who they said to. so it is curious. and i think the problem with this, and again, it is not the parlor game that is important, it is the fact that the suspicion on the republican side, increasing signs that the idea of small d democracy is not in play. merrick garland can't being seated because barack obama is president. if hillary clinton win, we'll hold a supreme court seat open for four years if we have to. we control this. you can't do points of order that are normal in the process. you can't do them because you are democrats, you don't get to. and in this case some senior administration official saying we don't have to worry about the constitutional options, 25th amendment, we have this, we'll do it our own way. >> and i think that it exposes the fact that republicans have -- they take an oath of office as well. but they have ignored it and they have decided that they only care about power, maintaining it, holding on to it, and doing what they want and that is in line with their agenda, whether

confirming as many conservative justices and remaking the judiciary, deregulating everything so we can't breathe or drink clean water ever, but i think what this moment exposes is the fact that there are 34re7b9s plenty of people in the white house who it could you can't na dozen, that is crazy. if there are a hundred people who work for you who could say that you are unfit for your job, then that is the problem, not necessarily who specifically wrote the op-ed. and again, i agree, i would really like to know who this person is. >> because this is the ultimate minority rule. this person has said in this op-ed that they and a few of their cohorts decide what policies happen and what policies don't. there are people according to the woodward book and according to this op-ed just taking papers off the president's desk so he cannot implement policies. whatever you think of donald trump and his policies, that is

not what elections are about. >> right. but at the same time, they somehow you for on got to take the paper that authorized family separation off his desk. they somehow forgot to take the papers that authorized the muslim bhan and all these different things that are so dell te dell ter yus. and i think that person whoever they are willing to cell brart t -- celebrate the quote/unquote bright spots that are having marginal impacts. so i think despite that, i do think it is important that the person who works for the president, serves at the pleasure of the president, and they could have made a much more impactful statement by resigning and going public than hiding hind behind an op-ed and still celebrating the gains that this administration can loot. >> and they did it all as a

former republican sitting on this panel apparently it is all worth it for tax cuts for the rich and deregulation. >> this whole episode speaks to what is exactly wrong with the republican party. we don't need a quiet resist tarngs we need a vocal visible resistance. and for whoever to champion these policies that are destroying the country, separating children and families at the border, and makes me wonder if it is stephen miller who wrote this, he loves those policies, but everyone would rather do this anonymously off the record. people are all too willing to say trump is terrible, but not willing to put their name on it. and until that happen, this party is losing everything. >> yeah. thank you all very much for your time this morning. go and have a wonderful brunch. coming up, more reaction to the white house's week of chaos. peninsula trail? you won't find that on a map.

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promise they are using it to make the world better, my next guest has a book that asks are we ready to hand over our future to the elite, one supposedly world-changing initiative at a time. author of winners take all, the elite charade of changing the world. great to see you. >> thank you. >> we just did this recently. we did a book talk for the book. it was great and robust. really interesting. to provoked a lot of great questions. i am going to start with the question i had for you then. what is wrong with rich tech billionaires giving away their money? >> they are doing that everywhere. elon musk handles space. mark zuckerberg is going to deal with diseases, someone else does schools. more of our problems are being claimed to be solved by these people. the argument of winner's take all is these elite billionaires have rigged the world this their favor, have pushed for a politics and policies and tax

reg ee regimes and tax law that allows them to grab more wealth and power and leave very little of the american dream for everybody else. with most of us struggling to build the kind of life that they used to be able to build, they are telling us they are the only way to make change, that we have to go through them. therefore, we can only do the kinds of changes that they want. and when you have these companies being called to testify, you have this fascinating dynamic where they don't like being called to account by journalists like us. they don't like to being called to account by congress because they feel they are making the world a better place, pursuing a win-win as fast as they can and they are helping people and you are just getting in their way. what's interesting and what happened with that, you know, those twitter employees leaking that jack dorsey maybe overruled them on kicking out alex jones -- >> until he had a personal encounter and he was like, oh, you've got to go.

>> i found there is a generational rift. even though the founders of these companies are young in silicon valley, there is an interesting generational rift emerging. the founders of these companies are in the grips of this ideology, they think they are rebels. but the people working for them. 25-year-olds and 30-year-olds working for them do not buy in ideology and grumble privately to people like me that these people are totally blind to the issues of abuse on twitter, issues of the election with a platform like facebook, to the issues of monopoly raised by many of these companies. one of the most interesting stories to emerge in the next few years is how these employees stop gum pling gumling to me ane these companies to take responsibility for being the kingpins that they are. >> it sounds like the anonymous op-ed writer. they don't want to take responsibility for the bad things. they want to say i want the tax cuts for the rich, but i will

save the country. only i can do it. >> we live in an uncourageous culture in many ways. i think at the heart of the book is the idea of the win-win, which sounds great. it's not just one win, but two. i believe that the win-win has become one of the most destructive ideologist because it's the anthesis of the idea of sacrifice, of anybody having to give up their monopoly or billions or tax cuts for the common good to flourish. people in silicon valley may wear hoodies but own the most powerful tools in the history of humanity. they make the rockefellers and carnegies look like peons and they refuse to accept any social responsibility. coming up behind them i think are a bunch of employees that think it benefits the very few and we need to change these companies. >> you are on the indy

best-seller list. >> and "the new york times." >> there you go. congratulations. a great book. it's winner take all. pick it up. you, too, can read a book on "the new york times" best-seller list. the doctor's office just for a shot. but why go back there... when you can stay home with neulasta onpro? strong chemo can put you at risk of serious infection. in a key study neulasta reduced the risk of infection from 17% to 1%, a 94% decrease. neulasta onpro is designed to deliver neulasta the day after chemo and is used by most patients today. neulasta is for certain cancer patients receiving strong chemotherapy. do not take neulasta if you're allergic to it or neupogen (filgrastim). an incomplete dose could increase infection risk. ruptured spleen, sometimes fatal as well as serious lung problems, allergic reactions, kidney injuries and capillary leak syndrome have occurred. report abdominal or shoulder tip pain, trouble breathing or allergic reactions to your doctor right away. in patients with sickle cell disorders, serious, sometimes fatal crises can occur.

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that is our show for today. last for watching. up next, my friend alex witt has the latest. >> i am going to take over from you. a great show. >> thank you,