until the axios comes into the inbox. signup.axios.com. >> that does it for us this morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> translator: i said that i would very much like for us to set up a permanent american bases in poland which we would call ft. trump and i firmly believe this is possible. >> so you have to assume that ft. trump would have the most spectacular military parades anywhere and he's already seeing them. can you see that thought bubble? good morning and welcome to "morning joe" on this wednesday, september 19th, along with joe, willie and me. we have mike barnacle, susan delpercio and nick confisori.

a lot to get to this morning. a lot to get to this morning. ft. trump. i can't even imagine. thanks, poland. >> thank you again. >> you know, guys, you have to laugh at how easily it is to watch these guys play president trump. it's not quite on par with the saudis projectsi saudis projecting his image on the side of the hotel, but ft. trump is up there. >> for the saudis, think about all they had to do was project his image there. they have had free reign. no criticism over a bloody, inhumane war that continues to drag on, but they had him. they had him in the palm of his hands the second they projected his image up on buildings before he came into town. the saudis knew how to play him better than anybody else. >> yeah. en route from landing in air force one to the royal pal yas or wherever they were going, they had his image on 15, 20

story building on the side of the building, motorcades slowed down, the president of the united states, wow, look at that. and they had us. boom, boom. >> it has reeled him right in. willie, speaking of reeling somebody right in, omir and i were right. >> it's over? >> we thought all along the red sox were going to win this thing. >> come on. >> last night, we blow it. it's the late september swoon. aaron judge comes back in time to break our hearts and take our pennant. this is just not going to go well for the red sox. >> you're totally right, joe. >> 578? no, this collapse will be worse. >> neal walker is the new buckeye dentz, shaving the red sox lead to 10 1/2 games. >> we got help and we should lavish praise on the angels.

>> that actually is for yankees fans, that is the worst case scenario. you actually -- you know, you don't want to fly out to oakland to play a one-game series. that would be terrible. so last night was a pretty important night for yankee fans. >> we delayed tinnestble. you may clench tonight, joe. >> we shall see. so the story just keeps moving along and you think it's moving in the direction of those who want to stop the kavanaugh confirmation. then it moves back the other way. certainly last night news comes out that dr. ford was not going to testify before an fbi investigation has a lot of republicans saying if this hearing doesn't move forward on monday, if we don't hear both sides talk on monday, then we're going to go straight to the vote. yeah. christine blasey-ford who

accused supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh of sexual assault in high school says an investigation should be the first step before she testifies in front of the senate. ford and kavanaugh have been invited to testify on monday. in a letter from her attorneys, she revealed yesterday she wants to cooperate with the committee and law enforcement officials, but believes a full investigation by the fbi would be necessary to form an objective assessment before any hearing. the committee's chairman, republican senator chuck grassley said there is no reason to the delay ford's testimony, writing in a statement that it would, quote, reflect her personal knowledge and memory of events, nothing the fbi or any other investigator does would have any bearing on what dr. ford tells the committee. so there's no reason for any further delay. now, bob corker, senator bob corker also weighed in, tweeting

after learning of the allegation, chairman chuck grassley took immediate action to ensure both dr. ford and judge kavanaugh have the opportunity to be heard in public or private. republicans extended a hand in good faith. if we don't hear from both sides on monday, let's vote. john cornen and lindsey graham said yesterday ford's testimony was the only reason for holding monday's hearing. >> but this is primarily to hear her. so if she's not planning on attending, then i don't know what the point going forward would be. >> she deserves to be heard and she will be challenged. kavanaugh deserves to be heard and be able to defend himself. but if she does not want to come monday, publicly or privately, we're going to move on and vote wednesday. >> the fbi is talking about hour background checks have been held

regarding judge kavanaugh. and doesn't understand what the seventh would do. i understand, dr. ford, if you look at the life that anita hill has lived, many people consider her to be a hero. the same number of peopleville lay phi her. it's no life to live. it's not the way to live the rest of your life. i can understand if she wants to delay this. a democratic staffer, we think, leaked her name out, leaked this information out. she didn't want to be out in public. and maybe she -- you know, she wants to delay the testimony. we can understand that, but that's not go delay a vote, is

it? >> no, it's not. they could call the white house this morning and ask that an investigation occur. but i don't know what they would investigate. >> what is this, 35, 36 years later? >> that's my point, though. can you imagine being the fbi and investigating something that happened 35, 36 years ago, no physical evidence, no recollection from two of the three and the third, obviously, for a lot of different reasons, because of the time that has passed and also if it happened it would have been so traumatic that she doesn't learn a lot of things about it herself. what does the fbi agent do? >> basically goes to two high school year books and begins making calls and visits to people who are still in the washington area or around the area asking them if they remember anything about a specific night. we don't even know what newt it was, when it occurred. but the other option is for 11

guys, 11 white guys, the republican majority on the senate judiciary committee to go ahead with the vote. the optics of that are going to be bad enough for them given the "me too" aspect of what we're living through culturally right now. they have really no good choices. >> this boils down to what we thought it would be about from the very beginning. that is does lisa murkowski and susan collins, do they want to vote for a nominee who will overturn roe v. wade by a conservative with a cloud over his nomination, unfairly as it may be, or fairley, do they want to carry that legacy with them for the rest of their lives because that will be their legacy. >> that would have happened independent of this new

investigation coming forward. that was on them before. this may give them a way out, perhaps. but i think it's important to look at some of the timeline in this. dr. ford reached out to the press and to her elected officials in july. she was aware of what she was about to do. she thought to stay anonymous. but she knew several weeks ago that wasn't going to be the case because she was speaking fwith reporter with "the washington post." she hired an attorney in august. it is now september. if she's not willing to speak in front of the committee, which everyone said she should be heard, that was the original request from the democrats and some republicans. if she's not willing to be heard on monday, what right does she have to delay this or ask for the fbi investigation which you so rightly point out will not show anything different than the facts testimony she's going to

offer? >> mika, i can understand so well why dr. ford is hesitant to rush out there, why she would like maybe another fbi investigation, something to give her more time to prepare for the hearing. that could be added to the story. although we just don't know if that's the case. at the same time, let's say it's very cynical of democrats, for democratic staffers most likely from the judiciary committee, again, if you listen to our interview with chris kuntz yesterday to release this against her will just like democratic staffers released anita hill's information against anita hill's will. and then demand that she has her time in front of the committee

and then have her say, again, for personal reasons that, my gosh, every american has to understand. i'm not ready to go testify on monday. i want something else out there before i go do that. but then for democrats -- and i saw this, respected democrats saying oh, these republicans have set this the poor woman up to go into a -- walk through a gauntlet on monday. no, actually, republicans -- everybody was screaming at the republican party 24 hours ago that they needed to give her a hearing. let her voice be heard. now they're attacking or claiming that this was all a part of some attempt by republicans to play this like masters. republicans can't play tidally winks let alone figure this one out.

>> i think as susan said, there are a gazillion reasons why dr. ford may not want to move forward with this totally at all. and i understand every one. certainly no one wavennts to be the wrong side of giving a woman a voice in a situation like this. this is what "me too" is all about. nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this. so everyone said let her speak, let her testify. give her a moment to have her voice. let's hear her story. i think she even said she would testify. there's no way of finding out what happened in high school. there are statutes of limitations for a reason. so we need to hear from her.

that's why everybody is open to hearing from a woman. but if she doesn't want to speak, if she doesn't want to testify, you have to wonder what the republicans are supposed to do except demand a vote. this is something that happened in high school. this is going to need her voice. there's no other way around it. no one can do it for her. as miserable as that may be. here is the president talking about a potential fbi investigation. >> how important is -- i don't think the fbi really should be involved because they don't want to be involved. the if they wanted to be, i would certainly do that. i think politically speaking, the senators will do a very good job. >> oh, boy. willie, once again, complete confidence in the united states senate and the processes of the united states senate. here is a man, who by the way, has recommended and commanded

and pressured the fbi to investigate hillary clinton's chihuahua. so for him to now go oh, this is not the sort of thing the fbi usually investigates. as mike said and as i said, what are they going to investigation? this is going to come down to the three people in the room. one of those three people said they do not want to testify. they do not want to go public. they do not want to walk through that gauntlet themselves. they don't remember anything from that night. >> the justice department said

the fbi won't investigate this because there was no federal crime. they say the role of the fbi in a supreme court confirmation is to perform a background check to see if there's any threat in national security. it becomes the same kind of circus and that you have grand standing on both sides, but republicans have given her the option of testifying in private, which to me would be the best possible outcome. if you have democrats and republicans in the room, let her testify with no tv cameras and hopefully no grand standing. >> well, look, the asked for an fbi investigation i think is partly a desire by her together out of the he said/she said box. she wants some other person or entity in there make something determination about the facts. it's very understandable. the phish is not normally

equipped for this kind of thing, but they do background checks. i have to wonder if they've interviewed mark judge, the only other witness to this. you could bring him to testify. he could be asked a question by the fbi. there is a lot that can be done on an old investigation, on a cold case. by the way, if we were talking about an opinion or paper that he had written 30 years ago, you would bet they would expend every possible effort to get to the bottom of it. >> but there would have been a paper 36 years ago, nick. now we have the two, three people that were in this room, allegedly.

none of the they can can tell you what it was or where it was. what is the first thing the fbi agent does after they call everybody? they don't -- the people who were supposed the be the principals to the party don't even know when it was, where it was. what is an fbi agent going to do on that? >> mark judgment asked that under oath? >> what? >> has mark judge been asked that under oath.? it odd that there is a witness. there is someone who is said to have been there. >> but if it was a woman, we would all say it was okay, we understand why she doesn't want to come forward. >> i understand why he doesn't want to come forward, but he could. there are -- and what i'm saying is there are avenues to finder more facts on this that haven't

been taken yet. >>. >> nick says that he would be a terrible character witness. i don't know his background, but i'd say the same thing about him as i'd say about dr. ford. who wants to drag them into the middle of this political bloodbath and be hated? the guy is going to be hated as is for, you know, the rest of his life, just like dr. ford, just like brett kavanaugh. who willingly wants to walk into the middle of that? >> one of the reasons we are here talking about this and the country is talking about this is two reasons at least. one is merit gartland. you cannot ignore that. the other reason is that this is not a three-year term for the federal trade commission that we're talking about. this is a lifetime appointment to the united states supreme court that could alter this country's direction culturally,

politically, in all sorts of ways for a generation at least. >> so that is, at the end of the day, the balance. if anybody were still capable of balancing anything in washington, d.c., that republicans and democrats should balance. if it takes another week, they should wait another week. sth a lifetime appointment. so the question is how does that happen when there is such bad faith between republicans and democrats and republicans are likely suspicious and now they're saying we can talk about an fbi investigation. but the one thing we know is there is a big clock ticking.

and every second that goes by, every delay that happens, that accrues to the benefit of democrats and any democrat that pretends that's not the case is just lying, mike. so how do you balance that? >> you don't. you just don't. they can't. they're incapable of balancing anything. >> and that is what happens. in the days not so long ago when you did, you could have a majority leader and a minority leader. how are we going to work through this? let's take this day by day and figure out a way to pull this thing together.

we talked about how the nomination process got out of hand, especially with miguel estrada. a little bit of grace could not only help the people in this process, but help our constitution republic been stronger. >> still ahead on "morning joe," new polling shows texas is looking a lot more red than purple right now when it comes to the u.s. senate race there. we've got the latest numbers on the battle between ted cruz and beta o'rourke. plus, the president reportedly turns on his hand picked candidate in florida. can you imagine him turning on anyone after ron desantis failed to echo his false claims about the death toll in puerto rico. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪

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president trump will be traveling today to floridaer to assess the damage done by hurricane florence. more than 250,000 are still without power and more than 1,000 roads have been closed due to flooding. the president's visit to north carolina also comes as he still seems to be hung up on what he believes are partisan efforts to tarnish him. >> about math. >> yeah. like crowd size. now it's apparently death toll. i don't know. tweeting yesterday right now, everybody is saying what a great job we're doing with hurricane florence and they are 100% correct. but don't be fooled. at some point in the near future, the democrats will start ranting that fema, our military and our first responders who are all unbelievable are a disaster and not doing a good job. this will be a total lie.

but that's what they do and everybody knows it. that's an apparent reference to his debunked claim that the death toll and hurricane maria was inflated by the democrats. >> let's stop right there for a second. willie, it is so extraordinary that a president who is visiting a region, talking about a hurricane that has taken dozens of people's lives and destroyed countless homes and just reeked havoc across the carolinas, would be striking out against democrats, with would be obsessed about past slides. i've been through a lot of these hurricanes, never seen any public official that did anything remotely to this.

and if the county representative did something like this after a hurricane, they would be run out of office the next day. >> it falls under the category that we should not be appalled, but he's reportedly, joe, furious with florida's republican candidate for governor, ron desantis who has distanced himself now from trump's allegation through a spokesman about the puerto rican death toll saying in part, desantis does not believe any loss of life has been inflated. politico reports trump has now called close sociologies he views desantis as profoundly disloyal for publicly disagreeing him and has no plans to campaign for him had. desantis rose from the republican nomination on trump's endorsement, even cut this

campaign ad entirely focused on his embrace of the president. the guy who put his baby in a make america great again onesy is now not loyal because he didn't believe the death toll. >> donald trump now believes if he embrace him, you have to support all his lies. maybe the next ad would be a picture of ron desantis teaching donald trump how to count, how to count deaths in puerto rico, how to county the pain and suffering and -- that the people

of puerto rico have been going through and continue to go through. ron desantis is right. they've all come out and said thousands of people died in puerto rico because of the hurricane. >> we know ron desantis is taking advantage of whatever he can whenever he can to take advantage of the primary. it's not pricing that he did this and it shows this is going to hurt him in the general election. yeah. still ahead, president trump was up late last night praise ago new peace agreement by north and south korea. kim jong-un has offered to dismantle the north's main nuclear site, but only if the u.s. makes concessions first. we have the details next on "morning joe." sometimes, the pressures of today's world can make it tough

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in a historic meeting, north and south korean leaders have come to a joint agreement on dethe nuclearzation in an effort to rekindle momentum in the faltering denuclearzation talks with washington. kier, what more can you tell us? >> one is this news that the missile engine test site and missile launch facility that north korea, according to the south korean president has promised to permanently close that and, quote, in the presence of relevant nations, so outside inspectors, perhaps. on that is being talked about as

crucial. and the nuclear facility, north korea offering if you like to close that, but only with american reciprocal action. and we don't know, willie, and that's one of the caveats, we don't know xkexactly what kind reciprocal action that is expected by kim jong-un. president trump, though, tweeting quickly kim jong-un has agreed to allowing nuclear inspections subject to final negotiations and to permanently disabled a launchpad in the face of experts. president trump clearly seeing this as a break through after months of difficult negotiations. others saying perhaps he shouldn't be quite so excited. as ever, the devil is in the details and one of the big questions, of course, is what kinds of expectations does north korea have of washington.? we know that their position has

traditionally been that the u.s. should remove u.s. forces from the korean peninsula. that, for example, would be a no go. >> the conditions for the long-term deal, is that accurate and tell us more about that condition or that talk. >> yeah, i mean, look, when you talk about conditions, clearly these are, in a sense, good conditions if you just want to compare, for example, to a year ago when we were talking about what would happen if there was a nuclear war on the korean peninsula or in the region. so that has to be better, right? i think one of the bigger issues for washington is here in south korea, you have an absolutely crucial u.s. ally that seems determined to build better relations with north korea, a continuingly deeply dangerous country. for example, they are talking about a joint bit for the

olympics in 2032. and, you know, the u.s. in a sense can find itself in a corner with things that perhaps washington won't want to agree to. that is the kind of tricky position people are worried about looking down the road. >> can i er, do we have now a circumstance with south korea is not taking necessarily a separate path with north korea but a much more individual we're going to take care of ourselves first kind of path? >> yeah. clearly, you don't want to exaggerate that because south korea is protected by these forces. but on the other hand, president moon, the south korean president

who has family history from north korea, is staking some of his politics on being able to make a break through. his ratings are falling a little bit in south korea as this agreement that we saw with the kim jong-un president trump summit reached a stalemate. he wants to try and push through that. the issue is there have been, there are some in the past insurmountable issues like will north korea give up its nuclear weapons. some experts are saying we haven't really overcome any of those and that's where the trouble lies. >> and that's talks against the back drop of nbc news reporting just last week north korea is not only continuing its program, but is working harder to conceal it. keir simmons, thank you. coming up, the president's

intention to declassify documents in the russian probe once again has him at odds with the intelligence community, but the president does not see it that way. we'll explain, just ahead. sometimes, the pressures of today's world can make it tough

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president trump's order on monday to declassify documents in the russia probe took u.s. intelligence agencies by surprise. and now officials are hoping the white house will allow them to conduct a formal declassification review and damage assessment before they are forced to release the documents. one challenge is that trump ordered the release of only those text messages related to the russia investigation that will require the fbi to sort through thousands of messages to figure out which ones apply.

meanwhile, trump said, i hope to be able to call this along with tax cuts and regulation and all the things i've done, in its own way this might be the most important thing because this was corrupt. i hope to put this up as one of my crowning achievements. the president's attorney said they expect a treasurer trove of corruption. >> i suspect what they're going to find, is that this was a -- not only is a rigged investigation, as some people have called it, but it may be much, much worse than that. >> i'm sure russian intelligence service are waiting to see what comes out. not only in terms of the what

the fbi's collection capabilities are and the russian intelligence services can put the pieces of the puzzle together and come up with some insights that could impact and negatively affect the u.s. government's ability to carry out its law enforcement and intelligence responsibilities. >> i've known jay for quite some time. he goes out there, he says things that are factually inaccurate. he talked about a witch-hunt, a corruption investigation. nick, i mean, we could go down the list. the president's campaign manager, the president's national security adviser, the president's -- a guy that helped run the president's campaign and was still around trying to organize the inauguration, it goes on and on and on and on. these people not only pled guilty, they're now cooperating with this investigation. with the president doing what he's doing, forget the fact that

his entire intelligence community has told him there is a dangerous things to do, there is a possibility it could be parallelly dangerous because the last time republicans did this, it was the newness dud. >> the president is entraced by the sweeping nature of what he wants to do. you saw in his tweets, it could be historic. but his people have been looking and looking for evidence of this corruption of this deep state. and for the most part, they've come up dry. we saw what the release of the fisa warrant materials are from devin nunes it came back and bit them in the butt and showed that the warrant process was actually proper. but they are looking to keep alive the narrative, that the investigation is illegitimate. they failed on the fisa warrant. they mostly failed on the dossier outside of media and

blogs. they are looking for an in, something, anything, to contend the investigation is unwarranted. >> you have to ask what else might he deat the classify if he believes it's making the case that he's been making since the beginning that the russia investigation is rigged against him. it's a terrible precedent to have a president trying to make his own personal defense by playing with intelligence. >> key phrase, you just used it, what he believes. what he believes are the views of the conspiracy caucus. devin nunes, mark meadows and jim jordan and the house of representatives were quite familiar with devin nunes. everybody knows that he's more than two or three baskets short of a full picnic and he has been pushing things like this for a long time. he believes those people versus the heads of the american intelligence community. >> susan. >> i also think that right now we're looking at a potential fishing expedition. this is donald trump's personal

lawyers looking for what mueller may have found out. they are using this for personal gain. and that's the -- you know, the president mentions corruption. that's the real corruption at stake here. and not only that, as he's using it for personal gain, he could do all of this without unsealing this declassifying it. if the attorneys have a reason to think they need to see this for a case they're building or whatever, this could be all done without making it public and they are choosing to do this, again, not just for donald trump's benefit in his searching for information, but, again, trying to sully the reputation of of the intelligence community. >> also in that interview with the hill, president trump expressed a regret he says he has about former fbi director james comey. quote, he said if i did one mistake with comey, i should have fired him before i got here. i should have fired him the day i won the primaries. i should have fired him right after the convention. >> when?

>> say i don't want that guy or at least fired him on the first day of the job. compare that to how trump greeted comey on trump's second full day on the job. >> so let's -- oh, there's -- james. he has become more famous than me. director comey. >> again, mika -- >> yeah, pull him in. >> it's so preposterous. again, donald trump acting like james comey was his enemy throughout the entire campaign. why would he want to fire him on the day he was inaugurated when james comey did more than anybody else down the home stretch to help elect donald trump. mike barnicle, we have all seen october surprises in our lifetime, but nothing compares to the october surprise of james comey's letter that came out ten days before the election that actually even donald trump's

people said at the time this gives us a chance. comey has opened up the door. we actually have a chance to beat hillary now because even they didn't think they had a shot in hell of winning ten days out. the letter drops, james comey gives them new life. >> yeah, no, they did not think they were going to win, joe, you're absolutely correct. we know that from conversations with people running the trump campaign up to and including the morning of the election. we will never know the true impact of russia's proven interference in the american elections last year, but we do know and we do know for a fact that comey's letter, the second letter, dropped on the eve of the election, certainly did have an impact. >> and the same thing with comey's press conference on i think it was july 5th where he held an extraordinary press conference. >> oh, my gosh. >> which was so out of line with the traditions of the fbi where

he didn't indict hillary clinton legally, but he indicted her politically. >> yeah. >> never seen anything like it, neither has donald trump, neither has anybody else in modern american politics. the two big events of the 2016 campaign regarding the fbi, both broke favorably for donald trump, mika. >> yeah. >> and the last one helped get him elected. >> absolutely. and coming up we will talk to two former federal prosecutors who say the allegations against brett kavanaugh deserve a, quote, fair and full investigation. we ask them how they see that investigation playing out. and later filmmaker michael moore joins the conversation. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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you know what an average family in america will pay once these tax go into effect? >> well, you can do the numbers this way, if you have a 10% tariff on another $200 billion that's $20 billion a year, that's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of 1% total inflation in the u.s. because it's spread over thousands and thousands of products, nobody is going to actually notice it at the end of the day. >> of course -- >> wait a minute. >> he went on to say that, you know, gas may go up from 25

cents a gallon to 27 cents a gallon. >> exactly. >> if you drive down to wool worth's you're not going to really feel that much of a difference. >> and you can get a cup of coffee, too. >> exactly. commercial secretary wilbert ross who donald trump is quoted as saying he's really good if you get him before 11:00 in the morning, that looked like an early morning interview so there you have it. we're bringing in jonathan lemire, ap superstar reporter and michael steele, just superstar at large. lemire, we said this day was coming and sure enough last night a three-run homer by the yanke yankees, they are officially back. >> come on. >> it's going to be a historic -- it's going to be a historic collapse. aaron judge, they were just baiting us. judge comes back and then this three-run home run. it will be remembered for -- neal walker hit that one, but it

doesn't matter. the names are interchangeable. bucky dent, neal walker, it doesn't really matter. the fact is, lemire, this is going to be a september swoon like one that no red sox has ever seen in history. >> joe, we saw this coming. you know, it was just a question of when and who. it happens to be neal walker. i know the red sox magic number is two, it would just take a win tonight or tomorrow to clinch the division. i'm not banking on that. i'm ready for the wild card, i'm sure you are, too, so we will just wait for that single game elimination in early october. >> well, listen, i've already gotten my tickets to oakland, willie. lemire and i are going to be flying out. >> going west. >> let's keep our fingers crossed. one-game elimination, i think we can do it. >> we're going to hold you off tonight, then tomorrow night, then all you have to do is win twice in a week and a half and you clinch the division. i do like the self loathing that continues even after you've won

the world series a couple times. you would think it might dissipate but it's still right there front and center in september. >> no, it never goes. i remember we were in the middle of -- we were -- >> here we go. >> -- winning the 2013 world series, we were in game six and everybody was going crazy and your dear friend esthes esther was sitting there watching 2013 unfold and you're thinking she would be talking about what's going on on the field. instead she goes, i remember like it was yesterday, 1978, i'm in the left field bleachers and i'm hiding behind a priest, you know, father danny o'brien and the ball goes -- you know, it's -- it's like the balkans. you remember the bad times from the 14th century, you don't remember any of the good times at all. >> sadly, and i have to --

>> what just happened? >> i suspect it's the truth of a lot of people including lemire. >> what's with mike's mic? >> we are the only -- it's gone? >> it's gone. it's gone, mike. >> okay. >> hold on. hold on. >> by the way, mika -- hold on. >> here we go. >> this is one of those, you know, with the lightning bolts that they do, my special take. >> hot take. >> i yield my time to the senator from massachusetts. go ahead, sir. >> members of red sox nation with the only people who sadly qualify for money from the veterans administration from suffering from ptsd. >> it's true. >> there is a 40th anniversary documentary just out done by jonathan hawk on 1978 and the playoff game red sox/yankees. i have to tell you i do not

watch it because i knew the ending. i knew what happened and i didn't want to win through it again. but we're going to be okay. we will win the wild card, i think. >> and that was mike barnicle's hot take. >> he just dropped his mic. >> brought to you by johnny's hot sauce. >> we need to do that. willie, we were talking before about polls and we've been doing it all week. so if you go down the checklist of polls we've done this week -- >> taking my mic back, sorry. >> pretty good -- doing better than expected in indiana, better than expected in west virginia, better than expected by the polls we were looking at this week in tennessee. now let's put up wisconsin. tammy baldwin, this is a state that has been, boy, a battle ground for the past six years. tammy baldwin easily in front. now let's go to texas where we see that hope and change may

have to be put on lay away for a while if these numbers continue. ted cruz up by 9 percentage point and the thought that beto o'rourke might pull off a historic upset at least in this q poll, looking like an uphill fight. willie, it's always really been an uphill fight. >> yeah. >> i mean, you see polls that show one, two, three-point lead. just, again, i don't think texas is ready to be painted purple quite yet. >> that day will come, it may not come in the next couple of months, michael steele, but that was a nine-point state was texas in the 2016 presidential election for trump. it's been red, i think the democrats have hoped that it would push forward because they have a great candidate in beto o'rour o'rourke. do you think there is a way that he closes that gap by november or is it still just too red down there? >> i think it's very red, theres no doubt about that, but there is prospects for closing the gap. all these races will tighten,

it's just a natural course of how the campaigns run. i think the bigger take away at least as i've looked at texas over the last 10 to 15 years is the democrats have done a very good job of making themselves competitive in the state in which they should not be competitive. that portends, i think, for them what their future may be in terms of not just the local offices that they tend to win for mayor and things like that, judgeships, but also for statewide office. so beto o'rourke is really kind of the tip of a spear that's going to pierce texas not to get it to bleed red but to get it to bleed a little bit more purple. when you look at future cycles this race sets up nicely given everything else, the demographic changes, willie and everything else that's going on the ground there that republicans need to pay a little bit more close attention to. >> susan, if you look at all the

races that, again, we've seen polls out on this week, actually missouri is tied, indiana donnelly is up more than expected west virginia joe manchin at least right now looks like he's cruising pretty comfortably. in tennessee democrats up by 5, former governor up by 5 in a poll we showed earlier this week. you begin to understand with five, six, seven, eight senate races that can break either way just how important the next few days are going to be for both republicans and democrats in how they handle the kavanaugh allegations and the hearings. >> that's absolutely right, joe, because you are going to have members going back to their states and having to talk about this, whether they're involved or not, if they are not on the judiciary committee they're still going to have to talk about it and this is something that's going to affect and we hear this all the time, white suburban women. they care about seeing how this

dr. ford will be treated if she testifies, but more importantly having kavanaugh hearings continue, which is the worst fear of the republicans, because it is someone who will end reproductive rights if he had his way or at least put it to the states and let them do it. so this is going to have a long-term effect that the republicans won't be able to kind of come back from because if you figure this doesn't go until october, first week of october, i don't know how they kind of claw back within four weeks. >> well, susan, let's continue there. christine blasey ford the woman who accused supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh of sexual assault more than three decades ago in high school says an investigation should be the first step before she testifies in front of the senate. ford and kavanaugh have been invited to testify before the senate judiciary committee on monday. in a letter from her attorneys ford revealed yesterday that she wants to cooperate with the committee and with law

enforcement officials, but believes that a full investigation by the fbi would be necessary to form an objective assessment before any hearing. the committee's chairman, republican senator chuck grassley, said there is no reason to delay ford's testimony. writing in a statement that it would, quote, reflect her personal knowledge and memory events, nothing the fbi or any other investigator does would have any bearing on what dr. ford tells the committee. so there is no reason for any further delay. senator bob corker also weighed this, tweeting after learning of the allegation chairman chuck grassley took immediate action to ensure that both dr. ford and judge kavanaugh have the opportunity to be heard in public or private. republicans extended a hand in good faith. if we don't hear from both sides on monday, let's vote. >> jonathan lemire, the same republicans, bob corker, lindsey graham, others, that were

pushing jeff flake, that were pushing to have this hearing on monday when a lot of republicans did not want to have the hearing decided obviously after dr. ford's lawyer said she wouldn't testify until after a full fbi investigation on these matters have now decided enough is enough, there's either going to be a hearing on monday or they are going to move forward. what do you think is going to happen? do you think there is going to be an fbi investigation or what are you hearing on the hill how this is going to wrap up? >> you're right, it's certainly clear that there is now a deadline set. that they feel like the republicans feel like they can set a clock and say if she wants to testify, it's got to be monday, we are not going to extend this process any longer. the white house is also signaling support for that. they've been in a political predicament here. when this allegation came out on monday there was scramble in the west wing as to how to handle this. do you push too hard and risk

alienating the idea of the suburban women voters, those that the president has already somewhat lost but are so key to their success in the midterms this november, but at the same time if they delay, if they push back, this extends the process and vote for kavanaugh or a new nominee would happen after the midterm elections, ones the republicans don't expect to do well in. if you do it in a lame duck session i think we would hear the name merrick garland more than a few times. the president you heard him say yesterday suggesting he does not want the fbi to be involved, he does not want them to do a background check. he has opinions about what the fbi should do and whether or not they do move forward in the next few days remains to be seen, but it seems unlikely that an extensive background check, extensive investigation could be done between now and a deadline that's just a few days away. >> michael steele, my understanding is there have been several investigations leading up to this point just on judge

kavanaugh as a whole. i want to know if you can list the top pitfalls for republicans here moving forward and if there was a vote, say, next week what are the chances he would be confirmed? >> i still believe that the chances for his confirmation are high. i mean, i don't see the break away votes that people have been claiming exist. i think lisa murkowski, susan collins will support this nominee. i think that's why the republican leadership is ready to move forward on the vote. they took the advice, as joe mentioned, you know, to hold the hearing, to give a fair hearing to the doctor on this one, but the vote -- the numbers are there and that's -- that's what makes this so much more tricky is that they don't want to get beyond that space. they don't want to get into a space where they could potentially lose that vote

because of, you know, protracted hearings and the fact that the journal has been, you know, reviewed by the fbi some five or six times before now and so a number of members that have raised the question, well, in those six, you know, background checks -- >> reviews, that's the right word. >> -- why hasn't this information been brought forward until now? so there's a lot of energy to move forward starting monday. >> so can you imagine the timing of this, though, michael steele, if you're running the rnc? you've got so -- you've got so much in front of you that's so challenging. donald trump now attacking senate candidates in florida that dress their babies in make america great again onesies. you have suburban educated white women just fleeing as quickly as they can the republican party and here you're going to have a

vote that is going to determine the outcome of roe v. wade and overturn roe v. wade ultimately and then, you know, a month later you've got -- you've got an election -- >> you have to go to the ballot box. >> the timing for republicans seems -- and things aren't always as they seem in politics -- this timing seems awful for republican candidates. >> yeah, you know, we referred to it inside the circle as this sucks. this is not good. i think that the key in the list that you gave us, joe, the key element is the white female vote. educated, uneducated, doesn't matter. the fact is that vote has mobilized and is mobilizing itself and is mobilizing away from republicans and so the question for individual senate

candidates and congressional candidates is how do i stem that in my own backyard? i can't worry about the guy the next state over, i've now got to focus on my own backyard. this scenario with these allegations and the kavanaugh hearing does not help that because it adds one more layer on top of the abortion question, on top of the immigration question, on top of many other questions that have been already put into the political mix for voters that makes this much more difficult for those candidates. that's why you're seeing the tightening in some races of the spread increase between democrats and republicans on generic ballots. so there is a lot going on here that the party has to reconcile in very short order and that's going to be hard to do. >> so what we're going to do next is dig in deeper with an important conversation about the dynamics surrounding professor christine blasey ford's accusation against judge brett kavanaugh. two former federal prosecutors

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joining us now former assistant united states attorney in the southern district of new york mimi roka, she is an msnbc legal analyst. and legal annual cyst for nbc news and msnbc and former federal prosecutor maya wiley. they are two of five nbc news legal analysts who have written a new nbc think piece entitled "the allegations against brett kavanaugh are not simply a he said/she said situation" in which they call for an independent investigation ahead of ford and kavanaugh possibly testifying before the senate judiciary committee. also with us for this situation former gop counsel for the house oversight committee now a

contributor to nbcnews.com's editorial page think, sophia nelson. good to have you all on board. maya and mimi, we will start with you, why should there be an investigation at this point given all the legal challenges to trying to prove a case like this, if you call it a case? maya, go first. >> certainly it's important, number one, because we are talking about the highest legal position in the land that has significant power and authority, including law making on issues that relate to exactly the kind of allegations that are coming before us now, meaning what is the nature of the law when it comes to some of the cases that we might see before the supreme court. you want someone in this position who has the highest degree of integrity and so any allegation that suggests that a person who is being considered for the supreme court of the united states, we should know and understand exactly what kind of person we're going to have,

including whether or not they obey the law, since that's what they're sworn to uphold. in this case the question isn't whether or not there's going to be a criminal investigation in the sense of whether he will serve any jail time, the issue is whether or not he is telling the truth on a very, very serious allegation and frankly there are a lot of tools available to law enforcement to determine whether or not there's any more evidence, but i think the important thing here is the fact that there is corroboration in the sense that in 2012 before brett kavanaugh was ever being considered for a supreme court seat, that she actually told someone what happened in exactly the same way for the most part with only a few -- a few differences, but for the most part the same story that she's telling now with very, very little to gain and that's the kind of thing we look at when we look at veracity and evidence. >> i mean, i don't know any

woman who would want to come forward with something like this, certainly not much to gain at all. mimi, what are the -- are there challenges to this given the timing of the said event? >> mika, absolutely there's challenges, but, you know, prosecutors, investigators face challenges all the time of varying degrees and they don't just throw up their hands and say, we can't figure it out so let's move on. >> but aren't there statutes of limitations for reason, especially in cases that are 30, 35 years old and happened when someone was in their formative years. i mean, i just have to push back. every legal expert that we've had on says there is no legal remedy for this. are you guys saying there is? could he be arrested? >> no, absolutely not. as maya said this is not about a criminal investigation, this is about a serious allegation that our point of our article was it has the ring of truth to us because of things we already know in the public record.

the fact that she gave a consistent statement to her therapist. the fact that her story if she was going to make it up, why would she put mark judge at the scene? why would she put a witness there who, you know, is in all likelihood going to contradict her because he is a friend of kavanaugh's? what would her motive be for coming forward? she duds not appear to be a political woman. why would she put herself through what she predicted would happen and is happening? what we were saying is her story has the ring of truth and so when you have not just any allegation, but what seems to be a credible allegation, you investigate it. you look into it because you need to know did this happen and you can make -- people can make their own decided about whether that means he should be a supreme court justice if it happened and is he lying now and should that affect his ability to become a supreme court justice. so that's the point of our article and that's why we think an investigation should be done. what the republicans are offering to do right now is a

total sham. they want to throw her up there, they've already made up their mind. i mean, remember, president trump won't go sit with robert mueller for an interview because he thinks it's a perjury trap but this woman is supposed to go in front of judges meaning the senators who have basically decided she's lying. that's the height of hypocrisy i think. >> i completely hear you. i want to get now to sophia nelson. you've got a different take on this. sophia, go ahead. >> well, i think a couple things. one, there is precedent, mika, with the thomas and hill hearings that after the allegations were made that anita hill said she was sexually harassed by then judge thomas, the fbi took a two-week time frame, they got witnesses, they talked to people and then they came back and they testified. so that's the first thing that's important, there's precedent. but where we have a problem here and i have a big problem is judge kavanaugh is saying he wasn't even there. now, to me i believe that something awful has happened to

dr. ford, i don't think she's making this up, i don't think women lie about these things, so let's get that out of the way. >> i don't, either. >> the challenge that we have is 36 years later where do you go for witnesses? she doesn't even remember the house that the party happened in. these are the things that investigators if it's going to be credible, right, they've got to get witnesses. there's no dna that i can figure how they collect any dna here and this is more than just sexually harassing like anita hill said about clarence thomas and saying ugly disgusting things. this is about an alleged sexual assault or rape. so you've got to have some type of physical evidence, there have to be witnesses and i think on twitter just a few moments ago before i came on there is another person that was named as possibly being there, another man, and he says it didn't happen or that he wasn't at the party and you have to check the name on that because i didn't look at it carefully. i'm just making a point that i don't know how the fbi conducts a credible investigation given 36 years down the road and who

do they talk to and what do they do? i'm not saying they shouldn't try, i just don't know how you get to who did what here. that's the problem. >> so, mimi, let me ask you that question because 35, 36 years ago you've got two people who were allegedly in the room when this happened, both of them actually say nothing like this happened. you have dr. ford who said something did happen, but she doesn't know where it happened, she doesn't know exactly when it happened. again, very understandable, over 35 years and also given the trauma of the event that she said she went through. if you are in charge of this investigation, what's your first step? what do you do? >> look, joe, there's definitely challenges, but here is what i would do. first of all, we are not talking about a needle in a haystack, this is not, wow, this happened somewhere in the world. this was a closed community, a private school. there have already been so many people on both sides frankly from this high school community

that have come forward and said, yeah, i knew brett kavanaugh. yes, i knew dr. blasey. so there is a pool of people to go to. this is what investigators do, they go out, they pound the pavement and they start interviewing people. was there anybody else in the room? let's put mark judge aside for a second. maybe there was no other person besides these three people, but there were people in the house. what happened when they came down the stairs? who is the friend that went to the party with her? did they leave with her or did she run out of there the way she said? there are ways to corroborate -- this is how cases are built all the time. you don't necessarily get to, you know, prove the -- or corroborate the central fact, but you corroborate or debunk if she's lying then that should be debunked. that you corroborate or debunk the facts around the central issue. there is not going to be physical evidence from this, i disagree with what was said because this was not an attempted rape where there was penetration as far as i know and she never alleged that.

we are not looking for physical evidence. we are looking at witnesses, we are looking at circumstances surrounding the events. on mark judge -- look, his statement so far was very careful, he didn't say it didn't happen, he said he didn't remember anything like that happening and that's a careful way of phrasing it. that may be true, but i think there needs to be more probing. that's a statement he put out. he needs to be questioned by a trained investigator. that's what i think should happen. >> go ahead, maya. >> wow. >> mimi made one important point -- many important points but one that i want to reinforce here which is that you -- this is not a situation in which there isn't an identified witness and he said he did not remember. it's also in terms of sophia's point about an investigation. this isn't a criminal investigation. we are not -- we are talking about an fbi background check. the standard of proof is different. so it's not a question of dna evidence not only because it wasn't a rape allegation, it was an attempted rape allegation,

but because the question is can we establish enough of the facts to demonstrate that brett kavanaugh -- whether or not brett kavanaugh is telling the truth or professor ford is telling the truth. right? that's the issue here is veracity, truthfulness, credibility. and remember that in this case since we are not talking about a criminal case, what interest does the public have in not trying to find out as much as it can in this set of circumstances. there is actually no public interest in failing to reopen an fbi background check to go and try to find out whether there's any more information we can get, including the fact, and this is also important to sophia's point, is it's not a question of -- one of the issues is where was the party? you know, she was being very honest, professor ford, in saying i don't remember which party. that's actually a very honest thing for someone to say, right? if they're really making it up, they will make up some more stuff to make it sound more

credible. >> i'm sorry, mika. >> sophia nelson, i just wanted you to be able to jump in. i do think that pattern is always important in cases like this that draw to character and truthfulness. do they not? i'm not a lawyer, but don't you look for patterns of behavior as well if there was an investigation? >> well, absolutely. i mean, what we've seen over the past year or two with the me too movement is every time a powerful man is accused of these things there are more alligations that come forth. so that's one thing that you would want to find out. with six background checks already done by the fbi i promise you they would have heard about this by now. two things, there's precedent for this, i said that, the fbi can investigate for a couple weeks and they can come back. the second thing is i was very clear to both of my colleagues that they said this was an alleged rape. i didn't say it was a rape. i've never said that. i think the allegation it's alleged rape is actually a

little bit -- i think we should be careful with that. i'm not sure what dr. ford is saying happened other than he put his hand over her mouth, which is pretty disgusting if that happened and that he held her down. i think another thing, mika, i was a high school girl in the early '80s as i think some of the others were on this panel and i can tell you i remember hearing stories -- this stuff happened back then with people drinking and with the fact that women didn't talk about because we couldn't talk about it. i think that it's brave of her to come forward, something happened, but kavanaugh is saying he wasn't there and so i do think it's a he said -- she said and i don't know how you get beyond him saying he wasn't there and she's saying he was. i don't know. >> and that's what makes this conversation fascinating. mimi, maya and sophia, thank you all for coming on this morning. still ahead, for months now poland has been pushing to have a u.s. military presence in order to deter russia. now the nato ally is offering

president trump a new incentive. naming rights. >> oh, boy. >> we will talk about that next on "morning joe." making my dreams a reality

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gentlemen, i was smiling when talking to mr. president. i said that i would very much like for us to set up a permanent american base in poland which we would call ft. trump. >> i think it should be pointed out that the president also said, and he said it publicly, that he would pay the united states, meaning poland would be paying billions of dollars for a base. >> that was donald trump and polish president andrzej duda in a joint news conference at the white house yesterday discussing the potential for ft. trump. >> the most beautiful base you've ever seen in your life, ladies and gentlemen. >> i swear, ft. trump. joining us now from washington national security analyst and counterterrorism expert seth g. jones, he is out with a new book that details the cia's secret mission to help liberate poland from soviet domination entitled "a covert action: reagan, the cia and the cold war struggle in poland." good to have you on the show.

>> you know, seth, it's so interesting, the topic of your book fits in. i remember talking to dr. brzezinski a good bit and was surprised when i first started talking to him about what he was doing in the 1980s, but he would regularly talk to the cia director, bill kasie, and casey would ask for any information or any help, where should they move money to help in poland's covert war against the soviet union. tell us about it. >> well, i talked to dr. brzezinski a number of times about this as well. the ironies between today and that period are interesting. we had the soviets conducting a range of active measures against the u.s., including meddling in the u.s. political system, but we had a president at that time in the 1980s, ronald reagan, who decided that he was not going to let the russians do that. one of the things he wanted to do when he saw a democratic

movement in poland is he decided to support it and at that time it was covert assistance through the cia based out of the cia's station in paris and that it would fund not weapons like what we saw in afghanistan but money for running an underground. it's a brilliant move. >> so, seth, if you've talked to my dad then you probably already know that he was always ahead of his time in terms of being able to predict history. i'm curious did he ask you to turn your phone off when you were talking with him? >> i knew better, actually, than to even bring my phone into the conversation. i took a notebook in and ran everything that i wrote down by him before we went to print. >> joe will tell you, joe, when we were -- i think it was five or ten years ago my dad made us turn the phone off because he said the russians are listening. and i thought, oh, gosh. >> we were thinking, poor guy,

he's living in the 1970s. actually, he was living ahead of his time. >> absolutely. >> so, seth, talk about this remarkable relationship that ronald reagan and pope john paul ii had as you moved through the 1980s from solidarity to 1989. did the president leverage the pope's popularity in any way inside of poland to push his goals forward there? >> well, there's no question that president reagan, bill casey the cia director and other senior u.s. officials recognized the power of the catholic church, recognized that it did not support communism inside of poland and that they worked together at least at the strategic level in undermining the communist regime. so there was a lot of conversation. the cia program that i looked at was not done in coordination

with the catholic church, but there was plenty of conversation between the two sides. >> seth, it's willie geist. as i read the details in your book of the cia program inside of poland it's amazing how that was one of the early dominoes to fall and to show the rest of the world that the soviet union was about to go down entirely. the cia supporting underground newspapers, radio programs and proactive information campaign. how critical was that not just inside poland, but as a larger strategy to take down the soviet empire? >> well, i think obviously most of the credit has to go to solidarity and other opposition movements inside of eastern europe, but i think there is no question that reagan's decision to go on the offense in terms of an information campaign in eastern europe, in the soviet's fear of influence was absolutely essential to providing the assistance these groups needed to run an information campaign against the communist governments. i think this is where we are a little behind the ball on today

which is where we are on the defensive primarily, not on the offensive. i think this is where -- this is a good example of where the u.s. went on the offensive. >> seth, pull the string a little more on that end of the story. electric with a lens is a, the pope, the president of the united states and the cia all involved in a concerted coordinated effort to undermine the existing polish government and it worked out well but pull the string a little more on the behind the scenes stuff there. >> so what happened was in november of 1982 president reagan signs a finding to provide covert assistance to solidarity. the irony here is that the u.s. didn't have to create anything, there was already an opposition movement active in poland. what the cia did was provide money that got what an opposition movement needed into poland, it got paper, money for paper, xerox machines, technical supports so that it could run an underground radio, technical

assistance so they could break into television programs, the evening news. that's what the cia provided is the funding and technical assistance to run an information underground against a communist regime. it was really -- it was really an interesting covert program, all done through surrogates, never directly with solidarity. >> the book is "a covert action: reagan, the cia and the cold war struggle in poland." seth jones, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. so jonathan lemire, when we look at what happened yesterday, we look at some of the actions taken by the trump administration over the past month or so, you actually have the trump administration and donald trump obviously signing off on it taking a tougher line against russia by the day, do you not? >> we've seen a lot the idea of the president versus the administration, right? in his public rhetoric he's obviously tried to have a warmer relationship with vladimir putin, we remember what happened this helsinki, but time and time

again he has said that russia should get the benefit of the doubt, we should have better relations with them, but, yes, the mechanics of the administration are moving forward, whether with sanctions, the idea yesterday with perhaps, you know, a more permanent military presence in poland, does suggest that they are moving for some form of policy that would be tougher against russia. it will be -- and obviously ft. trump is a master stroke by the polish president, that is something that of course the president would be very, very into, but i think it's also a theme that we should watch for next week. let's remember so much going on, but one of the things that's sort of been lost is next week is the united nations general assembly. president trump will be here in new york not only delivering a major speech but even chairing the national security council while he's here, it will be interesting to see if he sounds any kind of these notes or pushes forth a tougher stance while he's here. >> nick, it's so fascinating, you take away the tweets, you take away the denials of donald trump, of vladimir putin's

behavior, abhorrent behavior on the international stage and you try to ignore the embarrassing spectacle of helsinki and just look at the policy by itself and donald trump's claim that he has been tougher on russia than barack obama is certainly a credible argument that could be made. >> that's right. look, aside from the fact that the president is under investigation for possible collusion with russia, the policy from the white house is a lot stronger, the policy from the administration on sanctions against oligarchs and various russian interests has been robust. there are some of course who want it to be longer or more far reaching i should say. it's fascinating, though, to see that video, you know, every ambassador in washington and every foreign leader understands the playbook with the president. it's really fascinating to watch that they all play the playbook. they were congratulating him on his huge victory in the election

last year, now it's ft. trump. you do have to wonder if -- >> oh, my gosh. >> -- if his measure is so easily taken by the adversaries and allies, what does it actually mean for the long-term for policy in this administration? >> what does it mean for policy in this administration and, michael steele, even the suggestion that the president is open to putting troops in poland, that is -- vladimir putin will see that as a dagger pointed straight at the heart of russia and, again, let's just stop here for a second and, again, try to forget the tweets, try to -- try to look -- >> try. >> -- past the humiliation that we all felt when we saw the president in helsinki and just look at this policy. the fact that the president is even entertaining this policy, that is seen by vladimir putin and russia as a threat to their

national security. >> yeah, you kind of -- you kind of wonder if vladimir is sitting here looking at this, i will see your ft. trump and raise you trump tower in moscow. that's kind of in trump's wheelhouse. but you're right, joe, i mean, this is a very interesting moment for what the president is doing in foreign policy, particularly in eastern europe, where he is pushing up against the russian bear in a way that his rhetoric at home at least with respect to putin would indicate, you know, he wouldn't do that. there is the good cop/bad cop concept within the administration, the president is the good cop with vladimir putin, but his policy, his state department and other agencies are the bad cop in putting forth a foreign policy that challenges the very thing that putin stands for. and that's what's going to be interesting when they get to new york next week, whether or not in a very public space with the

global community the president himself steps into and backs his administration's tough rhetoric and policy when it comes to russia. >> well, and, susan, vladimir putin is in a weaker position than he's been in in the past because of retirement, talking about raising the retirement age. this would be -- american troops going into poland, boy, that would be coming at a terrible time for him as well. i'm wondering how do you sort through the same donald trump that cow towed to putin in helsinki and this donald trump who seems open after, again, a lot of tough policies his administration have passed aimed towards russia now open to do one of the things that vladimir putin would hate the most. >> he says he's open to it and tomorrow he may not be. tomorrow he's taking counsel from his advisers and next week

he may have a separate one-on-one and talk to the -- to putin and speak to him and have a whole different conversation. that's the scariest thing about this administration is you just don't know where it's going to take a turn, right, left or keep going down the center, and that scares a lot of people who have to make these kind of decisions in the intelligence community. >> mika, no doubt, again, you look at the policies, you separate them from the embarrassing tweets and the embarrassing -- >> behavior. >> -- performances on the world stage and this president, this administration's policies towards russia have been tough over the past 18 months. up next, she was taken from her bed at knife point 16 years ago, now the elizabeth smart case is captivating the nation once again as one of her captors is set to go free today. the details of the controversy

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. after 15 years in prison, one of elizabeth smart's kidnappers is set to be released. smart was 14 when she was taken from her home in 2002 by brian david mitchell and wanda barzee. today barzee could walk free. joe fryer has the latest. >> reporter: all eyes are on a utah prison where at any moment wanda barzee could be released, free for the first time in 15 years. she has been locked up for her role in the kidnapping of elizabeth smart who spoke this week with cbs. >> am i concerned? yeah, i'm very concerned. for the ghcommunity, for the public. as much as i am for myself. >> reporter: smart was 14 when she was abducted at knifepoint from her bedroom in 2002. >> if you are out there, we are doing everything we possibly can

to help you. >> reporter: for nine months, smart was held captive by barzee and her husband at the time brian david mitchel. >> there were times when yes she was manipulated by mitchell. but she in her own right abused me just as much as he did. >> reporter: mitchell is serving a life sentence and barzee wasn't supposed to be released until 2024. but last week utah's parole board ruled her 15 year state sentence must include time she spent in federal custody which means her maximum sentence has been served. she will now be on probation for five years. >> she is as far as i'm concerned as unstable as she was back when they abducted elizabeth. >> you can be assured that wanda barzee will be closely monitored and if she falls off track of what her requirements are, that that is a very short leash. >> reporter: federal officials say they have found a place for barzee to live when she's released, but won't say where. barzee's niece says she doesn't

know of any family members willing and able to take in her aunt. >> in a way i'm glad she's getting out, but she needs to go somewhere where she can be helped. i don't think that she should be on the street at all. >> reporter: at for smas for sm is getting rep from jaycee dugard who was abducted by another couple. she says believe elizabeth when she says this woman is a threat to society. but barzee's attorney tells nbc news i do not believe that ms. barzee is a risk to the community and i think that it is unfair and counterproductive to make those assertions. she should be allowed to demonstrate compliance with conditions of supervised federal release. >> so mike, if you listen to elizabeth smart describe what happened, this woman participated in the kidnapping for nine months she stood by while her husband raped elizabeth smart, encouraged him to continue to rape smart.

talk about that part of it. the other side of it is i've been so impressed from the moment she was released and became a public figure how poised elizabeth smart always is, the poise with which she's carried herself. she turned it into a life of activism. one of the most impressive women i've seen. >> no doubt about that. and also living with something that will haunt her forever. it will come back with the potential release of wanda barzee. and we have to ask ourselves as a culture and as a country, what is wrong with the penal system in this country, with the federal government in this country, when we can detain hundreds of children right now and wanda brarzee walks out of prison. there is something wrong there. still ahead, brett kavanaugh's accuser wants an fbi investigation before she testifies before congress. we'll discuss how the fbi would go about doing that. plus filmmaker michael moore joins our conversation when

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♪ >> so you have to assume that fort trump would have the most spectacular military parades anywhere. and he is already seeing them. can you see that thought bubble? good morning and welcome to "morning joe" on this wednesday, september 19th, along with joe, willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, republican strategist susan dell percio. and political writer for the "new york times" nick convasorip thanks follow lapoland. >> you have to laugh at how easily it is to watch these guys play president trump. not quite on par with thejectine of the hotel, but fort trump is up there. >> think about for the saudis,

all they had to do is project his image there and never had free reign, no criticism over a bloody inhumane war that continues to drag on. a and -- but they had him in the palm of their hands the second they projected his image up on buildings before he came in town. the saudis you knew how to play him better than anybody else. >> en route from landing in air force one to the royal palace or wherever they were going, they had hit image on 15, 20 story building on the side of the building, motorcade slowed down, the president of the united states, wow, look at that. and they had him. >> just reeled him right in. willie, speaking of reeling somebody right in, we were right. we thought all along the sox would win this thing. >> oh, come on. >> last night we blow it.

i mean it is the late september swoon. aaron judge comes back in time to break our hearts and take our pennant. this is just not going to go well for the red sox. >> you are totally right. >> '75, '78, no, this collapse will be worse. >> neal walker is the new bucky dent. shaving the lead to 10 1/2 games. i worry for you. we actually got our help, we should lavish praise upon the angels who beat the as for us last night. so we picked up a game in the wild card. >> that actually is for yankee fans, that is the worse case scenario. you don't want to fly out to oakland to play one game series. that would be terrible. so last night was actually pretty important night for yankee fans. >> we delayed the inevitable. you may clinch tonight, joe. >> we shall see. all right. so the story just keeps moving along and you think that it is moving in the direction of those

who want to stop the kavanaugh confirmation, and then it moves back the other way. certainly last night news coming out that dr. ford was not going to testify before an fbi investigation. has a lot of republicans now saying if this hearing doesn't move forward on monday, if we don't hear both sides talk on monday, then we'll go straight to the vote. >> yeah, christine blasey ford who accused brett kavanaugh of sexual assault in high school more than three decades ago says an investigation should be the first step before she testifies in front of the senate. ford and cakavanaugh have been invited to testify on monday. and in a letter from her attorneys, she revealed yesterday that she wants to cooperate with the committee and with law enforcement officials, but believes that a full

investigation by the fbi would be necessary to form an objective assessment before any hearing. the committee's chairman republican senator chuck grassley said there is no reason to delay ford's testimony, writing in a statement that it would be, quote -- that would, quote, reflect her personal knowledge and memory of events, nothing the fbi or any other investigator does would have any bearing on what dr. ford tells the committee, so there is no reason for any further delay. now, bob corker, senator bob corker, also weighed in tweeting after learning of the allegation chairman chuck grassley took immediate action to ensure both dr. ford and judge kavanaugh have the opportunity to be heard in public or private. republicans extended a hand in good faith. if we don't hear from both sides on monday, let's vote. john cornyn and lindsey graham said yesterday that ford's testimony was the only reason for holding monday's hearing.

>> but you this is primarily to hear her. so if she is not planning on attending, then i don't know what the point of going forward would be. >> she deserves to be heard. and she will be challenged. kavanaugh deserves to be heard and be able to defend himself. but if she does not want to come monday, publicly or privately, we'll move on and vote wednesday. >> you know, mitch mcconnell is talking about how six fbi investigations have already -- background checks at least have been held regarding judge kavanaugh. and doesn't understand what the seventh would do. and also i understand dr. ford, if you look at the life that anita hill has lived, yes, many people consider her to be a hero, the same number of people vilify her. it is no life to live. it is not the way to live the rest of your life. so i can understand if she wants to delay this.

a democratic staffer we think based on what chris coons said yesterday leaked her name out, leaked this information out. she didn't want to be out in public. and maybe she, you know -- she wants to delay the testimony. we can understand that. but that is not going to delay a vote if she doesn't testify on monday, is it? >> no, it's not. i mean, listen, there is a couple of choices that can be made here. don mcgahn whout doite house co could ask that an investigation be conducted. and why not what they would investigate. >> i was going to say, the investigation of what? what is this, 35, 36 years later? >> that is the point. >> can you imagine being the fbi agent trying to on investigate something that happened 35, 36 years ago, no physical evidence, no recollection from two of the three. and the third obviously for a lot of different reasons because

of the time that has passed and also if it happened, it would have been so drtraumatic that s doesn't remember a lot of things about it herself. what does the fbi agent do? >> the fbi agent basically goes to two high school year books and begins making calls and visits to people who are still in the washington area or around the country asking them if they remember anything about a specific night. we don't even know what night it was, when it occurred. we know nothing about it. the fbi i would assume would know nothing about it. but the other option is for 11 guys, 11 white guy, the republican majority on the senate judiciary committee, to go ahead with the vote. now, the optics of that will be bad enough for them given the me tee o too at pekt of what we'spect of there. so really no good choices here. >> and susan, at the same time this still boils down to what we've been saying it was going

to be about from the very beginning, and that is does lisa murkowski and does susan collins, do they want to vote for a nominee who will overturn roe v. wade by a conservative with a cloud over his nomination, unfairly as it may be or fairly, do they want to carry that legacy with them for the rest of their lives. because that will be their legacy. >> that would also have happened independent of this allegation coming forward. that was on them before. this may give them a way out perhaps. but i think that it is really important to also look at some of the time line in this. dr. ford reached out to the press and her elected officials in july. she was aware of what she was about to do. she sought to say anonymous, but she knew several weeks ago that that probably wasn't going to be the case because she was already speaking to a reporter from the

"washington post." she hired an attorney, or went to an attorney, in august. it is now september. if she is not willing to speak in front of the committee, which everyone said she should be heard, that was the original request from the democrats and some republicans, if she is not willing to be heard on monday, what right does she have to delay this or ask for the fbi investigation which you so rightly point out will not show anything different than the fact testimony that she will offer? >> mika, i can understand so well why dr. ford is hesitant to rush out there, why she would like maybe another fbi investigation, something to give her more time to prepare for the hearing, maybe to find an objective fact or two that could be added to the story even though we just don't know if that is the case. at the same time, i'm going to

say it is very cynical of democrats, for democratic staffers most likely from the judiciary committee, again, if you listen to our interview with chris coons yesterday, to release this against her will just like democratic staffers released anita hill's information against anita hill's will. and then demand that she has her time in front of the committee and then have her say again for personal reasons that, my gosh, every american has to understand. i'm not ready to go testify on monday. i want something else out there before i go do that. but then for democrats, respected democrats, saying oh, these republicans have set this poor woman up to go into a -- walk through a gauntlet on monday.

no, actually republicans, everybody was screaming at the republican party 24 hours ago that they needed to give her a hearing. >> yeah. >> let her voice be heard. andare attacking her claiming this was all a part of some attempt by republicans to play this like -- republicans can't play tiddly-winks let alone figure this out. >> and like susan said, there is a gazillion reasons why dr. ford must be not wanting to move forward with this at all. and i totally understand every single one. certainly no one wants to be on the wrong side of giving a woman a voice in a situation like this. this is what "me too" is all about. we've come so far. nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this. so everyone said let her speak.

let her testify. give her a moment to have her voice. let's hear her story. i think she even said she would testify. so i guess some could argue and some republicans could argue this is moving the goal post. and it is moving it in an impossible direction because every legal analyst we have had on the show, you're a lawyer, you know the law, there is no way finding out what happened in high school. there are statutes of limitations for a reason. so we need to hear from her. and that is why everybody is open to hearing from the woman. but if she doesn't want to speak, if she doesn't want to testify, you have to wonder what the republicans really are supposed do except demand a vote. this happened in high school. this will need her voice. there is no other way around it. no one can do it for her. still ahead on "morning joe," ron desantis couldn't be clearer about his affection for donald trump. and that feeling apparently is no longer mutual.

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through internet essentials, comcast has connected more than six-million low-income people to low-cost, high-speed internet at home. i'm trying to do some homework here. so they're ready for anything. president trump will be traveling today to the carolina to assess the impact from hurricane florence. the visit comes as floodwaters continue to rise across the state days after the storm made landfall. more than 250,000 are still without power and more than 1,000 roads have been closed due to flooding. the president's visit to north carolina also comes as he still seems to be hung up on what he believes are partisan efforts to tarnish him sflp abo. >> about math. >> yeah, like crowd size, now it is apparently death toll. tweeting yesterday everybody is saying what a great job we're doing with hurricane florence.

and they are 100% correct. but don't be fooled, at some point in the near future the democrats will start ranting that fema, our military and our first responders who are all unbelievable are a disaster and not doing a good job. this will be a total lie, but that is what they do and everybody knows it. that is an a apparent reference to his debunked claim that the death toll in hurricane maria was inflated by the democrats. >> let's stop there for a second. willie, it is so extra on ordinary that a president who is visiting a region, talking about a hurricane that has taken dozens of people's lives and destroyed countless homes and just reeked havoc across the carolina carolinas would be striking out against democrats, would be

obsessed about past -- really, again, been through a lot of these hurricanes. never seen any public official that ever did anything remotely close to this and if a scam beb county did something like this, they would be run out of office. so tasteless. >> falls under the category once again with president trump that we can no longer be shocked, but still be appalled by them. the fact that the focus should still be on places under water, but trying to settle an old score about puerto rico. and he is also reportedly furious where ron desantis who has distanced position now from trump's allegation through a spokesman about the puerto rican death toll saying in part desantis does not believe any loss of life has been inflated. politico reports trump has now told close associates he views

desantis as profoundly disloyal to publicly disagreeing with him. and currently has no plans to campaign for him. disloyal. desantis rose to the republican nomination on trump's endorsement even cut this campaign ad entirely focused on his embrace of the president. so the guy who put his baby in a make america great again onesie is now apparently disloyal to the president for not supporting his made up conspiracy theory about the puerto rican death toll. >> donald trump believes if you endorse him, that you have to swallow whole all of his lies and he can't believe when he is lying about how many people died in the natural disaster, that everybody is not going to blindly follow him. you know, susan, perhaps since ron desantis is good at reading bedtime stories to his babies and teaching them about building walls and teaching them about other things regarding donald

trump, maybe the next ad would be a picture of ron desantis teaching donald trump how to count. how to count deaths in puerto rico, how to count the pain and suffering that the people in puerto rico have been going through and continue to go through. ron desantis is right, by the way, so is the governor of the state who is running for senator right now. they have all come out and said that thousands of people died in puerto rico because of the hurricane. >> of course. and i think what ron desantis' commercial would be is probably him reading a poll to donald trump saying your numbers are going down here, and he had to adjust. because we know ron desantis is just taking advantage of whatever he can whenever he can like he did to win the primary. so it is not surprising that he would distance himself if he had poll numbers which i suspect he does that shows that this is going to hurt him in the general election. coming up on "morning joe," the last time we had our next

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we provide you the information so you will dig safely. welcome back to "morning jo joe". we have more from president trump's interview with hill.tv. in it the president eviscerates jeff sessions saying, quote, i don't have an attorney general. it is very sad. trump goes on to say i'm so sad over jeff sessions because he came to me, he was the first senator that endorsed me and he wanted to be attorney general. and i didn't see it. and then he went through the nominating process and he did very poorly. i mean he was mixed up and confused and people that worked with him for a long time in the senate were not nice to him. but he was giving very confusing answers. answers that should have been easily answered. and that was a rough time for him. trump would not say whether he might fire sessions, adding we'll see what happens.

a lot of people have asked me to do that. and i guess i study history and say i just want it leave things alone, but it was very unfair what he did. wow. willie and susan, this is the -- i think it is the most pointed attack yet at jeff sessions. >> it is. >> i don't have an attorney general. >> without question. >> i'm surprised he said he is history. >> i don't have an attorney general and of course the roots of there are that he believes that jeff sessions should not have recused himself from the russia investigation. and if he had not recused himself donald trump believes he wouldn't be in the trouble that he is in. but how does jeff sessions stay around after that? >> it has been difficult all along. i actually think jeff sessions may be rewriting his narrative and miss time his time in this administration saying i'm part of the people who are saving it and that is why i'm here. i'll stay in because we have a job to do, we have to protect

mueller and i'm willing to take all this abuse so the investigation can continue. >> mika, jeff sessions has taken a lot of this abuse, but as you say, nothing this specific from donald trump. >> i wonder if trump thinks he wrote the op-ed. in november 2016, just a few days after donald trump was elected president, we had a 45 minute commercial-free discussion with award-winning filmmaker michael moore, a princeton university professor, and also an author. and this morning the band is back together. but first, a quick look back at some of that first discussion. >> somebody was remarking here about how the 1k3e7bs repoexpen showed they spent more money on ball caps that month than anything else. and your panel was going, ball caps? and i looked at that and i thought, wow, there is the bubble there. >> you saw all those caps being

worn. people who go out and buy one and wear it every day are also going to vote. >> small town america is as in-curious about -- >> no, but -- >> and in small town america's job is not to educate america on the electoral process. >> my fear for the very people you are talking about is that they voted for a populist with some amount of authoritarian ten debs ci tendencies. >> some amount? >> and what they will get is an authoritarian with a little bit of populist speak. >> so many elites in new york city who let's face it, we can afford to go into the voting booth and rub our chins and say, you know, i'll make a point by not voting for either candidate. but michael, they don't have that luxury 90% of americans don't have that luxury. they vote to survive. >> a lot of people in this country feel that people are taking their stuff away, that

they are deserving, working their behinds off and they deserve more than they are getting. and the reason why they think they are not getting more is because the big government is taking stuff from deserving people and giving to undeserving people. and the undeserving people are people that don't live in my neighborhood. they don't look like me, they don't have the same religion, they don't -- i don't want to marry my children. they are different than me. and those people have been attracted to trump. not these black folk, not these muslims who are catching hell. so part of what i'm trying to get out here is not that middle america lives in a bubble, it is not that i'm some ivy league philosopher king going in doing what i did. what i'm trying to get at is at the heart of this country, there is deep racial animus that animates the very communities that we're trying to lift up. >> you have to accept that millions of people who voted for

barack obama, some once, some twice, changed their minds this time. >> so let's pick that up two years later. michael is out with a new documentary fahrenheit 11/9. welcome to you all. michael, you were one of the people, it wasn't the outcome you wanted obviously, but who saw what was happening in the country in the days and weeks and months and years really before donald trump was elected. what do you say two years after that conversation about what kind of president he's been? >> well, as bad as i thought and i think some of us thought it was going to be, i think it has turned out to be much worse. we have somebody who really does not like democracy, is definitely -- definitely prefers to rule as an autocrat. admires other autocrats. and people ask me, who do you think the democrats should run in 2020.

and i'm not even thinking 2020. there is only one election right now and that is november 6, 2018. we may not get to 2020. this is how dangerous donald trump is. because he doesn't believe in anything besides donald j. trump, the danger of having a malignant narcissist in charge of a country like this is we don't know what is going to happen. if we have a national emergency right now, what would he do -- first, to keep us safe, but most importantly what would he do to rule by fiat, by martial law, by whatever he would do. he would use this event to take away more of our rights. in the movie i show how this is not just paranoid thinking or theory thinking.

this has happened a number of times in history where people said he's a little crazy, but not that bad. he is that bad. and i watch your show every morning and you've been discussing this now for almost two years. and it is clear to watch especially with joe and mika the sort of -- the level of your -- where are you, mika? your belief in our wonderful system, and to watch the way that you and the others here on this panel have started to lose so much hope. and i don't blame you and i don't think the american people blame you. and what i was saying that day is that that pink bubble what

people were in, the pink high, the sort of belief that it will be great, she'll win, we'll have our first woman president, i'm hearing that right now about this election. we're going to get the house back. people are already believing that that is going to happen. for every minute that you spend believing that we're going to get the house back is a minute xwo going toward that not happening. that the possibility of us having two more years of this and then another term of donald trump. and people said that won't happen. that's what they said about bush, w. wouldn't get a second term. i don't believe that. and i embrace every single day when i wake up the fact that this could be a two term trump and that we won't win the house back on november 6.

>> mika. >> well, i'll tell you, michael, i agree with you on that. i think everyone has learned not to prognosticate with too much confidence. we felt we saw something happening. and as you describe the arc of our mindset as it sort of transformed or evolved over the past two years, it has become not just a battle of left and right, not just a battle over just how bad or how far he will go, i don't think anyone actually had a sense of how bad this could be if you think this is bad. but now it is a daily battle to maintain, establish, hold on to the truth. i think it is a very dangerous time. joe is confident that the institutions will hold. what do you think? >> no. i love joe, but he is wrong on this. it is good to see that he is still trying to cling to that hope, but right now i think hope

is the most dangerous thing we could have. i think that to sit and believe that -- here is the thing. democracy does not have a self correcting mechanism. so as we get closer and closer to the cliff, there is nothing that is going to pull us back. there is nothing -- democracy, the one we have, actually is just a piece of paper. and in each era, the humans, the people, the citizens are the ones who determine how that piece of paper is interpreted and what we'll live by and be by. but this is -- nobody should believe that -- and i show this in the film. germany in the 30s o'30s was cultured, they read more books, they were well educated, they were a liberal democracy. the popular vote in 1932 was won by the liberal left parties. hitler won with only 32% of the votes. and then they had a national emergency where their parliament

was run down through some sort of act of terrorism and that was used as an excuse to do x, y or z. less than two weeks ago, this man in the oval office suggested that the license of this very network that we are sitting here in the studio today should be -- we should consider what to do, should nbc still have a license to broadcast. >> and not for the first time by the way. >> not for the first time. and he is not suggesting pulling some socialist rag that you could get on the corner outside columbia university. he is talking about network people and this network because you might run something that he doesn't agree with, he believes he has the power. and let just say to his credit he is really no different than most ceos in the sense that they don't run their companies like a democracy. that is not how business is run. that is not what he is used to.

and the ones who are billionaire, they like the fact that they have more money than everybody else. and so they want the system rigged so that they end up with most of the pie and everybody else fights for the crumbs. that is the system they like. and it is not called democracy. it is an autocracy, the way that they prefer to rule, it is the way that he prefers to rule. and he just had a much larger and krcrazier version of it. but i think that our problem back two years ago is that people did not take him seriously. he was just a joke. he is crazy. you know, he is coo-coo for cocoa puffs and that is it. no, that wasn't it. i said then, i say it now, he outsmarted everybody. he outsmarted the campaign of maybe one of the smartest people ever to run for president. and he is still doing it. he is the master distract tore.

he is the king of the misdirect. and we're being played every day by him.tore. he is the king of the misdirect. and we're being played every day by him. the man is an evil genius and it is odd that this very network that he wants to possibly pull the license from gives the network that made him a beloved figure between the hudson river and interstate five. that show people loved donald trump. and the left, liberals, democrats, didn't understand that, that every week america got to sit down and watch him tell the biggest jerk and everybody works for that jerk by the way, everybody at work today in america has that person in the office and they loved hearing him say you're fired. you're fired. and it was cathartic. and nobody i knew even watched the show, they didn't know what was going on and why he became so beloved.

>> michael is absolutely right of course that not enough people took donald trump seriously as a. up until election day, most people in the hillary clinton campaign, most people in the media didn't think that he was going to win. don't you think though that progressives and democrats have been activated because of his election to act in 2018 and 2020? i know neither joe, mika or and i and i can't remember anyone on the set saying there is no way that he will win in 2020. i think people are on heightened alert because they were surprised by 2016. >> i was thinking back for what did we know when we had that conversation. and what have we since learned, what we couldn't have known. and i think we knew that he was a bad guy. he was a malignant narcissist. the evidence for that was in. i think the two things that get to your question of future of kind of activism and people taking back the country, the two things would he ha we've learnes

kind of faith in institutions, i think we've realized at least from my point of view and i think your and some others that we are actually as a country held together much more by culture and norms and acts of bravery than by institutions. and we have great institutions, but they haven't stopped him from a bunch of things, whether it is the muslim ban, whether it is family separation, whether it is declaring the plead i can't the enemy. people and perhaps his rhetoric. we are held together by whether people are actually willing to step up. and in his own party, in his own squad, that bravery has been totally an septembbseabsent. at least that part of the country and his movement has been profoundly uncourageous country. the second thing that has been revealed is that the for uhe list turned out to be in his

governing a billionaire giveaway guy, a billionaire who is probably not even really a billion their himself giving money to other billionaires and using his time in the white house to screw the people who voted for him by giving them billions. and i think that is why to come around to your point there is an extra ordinary thing happening in this country, yes, it is about people running for office and that is happening. yes, it is about more women running for office than ever, but i think it is even evidence of something deeper. i think for 30 or 40 years, to go back to your ceo point, we believed the phony story about how we make change, which is that it is trickle down, it is company, markets, facebook, it is business. and i think we've realized trump has actually done us the enormous favor realizing a country is no better than its public institutions, no better than its government. and i think there is an extraordinary moment looming in which we have an age of reform in this country and actually

wree build eve rebuild every aspect of our social contract, our deep systems so that this never happens again. >> and when you say it is an uncourageous country, you are talking about specifically republicans in congress? >> arrepublicans in congress, b also his movement. i know a lot of people who voted for him, who were attracted to him. i know how they live their personal lives. i know how they raise their kids. they are not like him. if any of their kids came home and said any of the things that he says, those kids would be thrown out of the house. if they were married to someone who treated them the way he has treated his spouse, they would kick the spouse out of the house. we have a lot of people in this country who would never tolerate in their church or in their softball team or in their company behavior that they are willing to tolerate from the president of the united states simply because they hate the on

other side and who the other side represents more. >> and hold that thought. we'll sneak in a break. right back with much more. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, only from shark. this is not a screensaver.game.

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you deploy because your nation sends you to these places. and then one day you come home and you realize it was all a lie. our town is dying. one out of every four homes is abandoned. and you get told keep picking up trash and let leaders do what leaders do. elect ed leaders in our towns, n our states, in our country, absolutely are self-serving. you know, you come home and you realize that i can take you five minutes from here and show you where kids have it worse than the kids i saw in iraq and afghanistan. so that is why i come back here and i started speaking up for the things that i believe in. and i will not shut up for

nobody. >> that was richard ojeda, the democrat running for u.s. congress in west virginia who gained national attention for helping teachers in the state win a pay raise. michael moore speaking with him there in his new film. so eddie, let's get you launched into this conversation. michael was talking a lot about the concern that clinging to hope could even be dangerous at this point. but when you look at the activism that this presidency has sparked, and you look at the people running for office, isn't that the beauty of the process? and isn't that helpful? >> absolutely. i would want to make a distinction between hope and optimism. optimism would be dangerous in this moment. hope is i think the source of the imaginative lead that allows us to see beyond the darkness of the moment. when you will bereft of hope, it becomes difficult to see what is possible beyond the ugliness of

now. so i think hope is absolutely essential. but optimism, that is that stuff from voltare, just the best of all possible worlds. don't want to do that. but i want to say this. donald trump, this obsession with trump absolves us of our sins. he becomes -- his shoulders bear the national burden of the ugliness that is in all of us. it is so easy for us to just displace it all on to his shoulders and he becomes the embodiment of the evil. when donald trump is in fact an xaa ag ex-age rate -- exaggerated indication of what is going on in white america, in urban america. donald trump represents what is really ugly about who we are. and we're always falling back into this pollyanish stories about america always on the road to a more perfect union, when the american idea.

and it secures us from the fact that we don't have clean water in flint, that we have children playing in playgrounds in east st. louis that are still toxic d us of deregulation. so part of what i'm trying to suggest here is that we can focus on trump. but what trump is is not -- i don't want to use the language of -- it makes it better for us. he presents an opportunity for us to actually reimagine ourselves as a country in the face of the ugliness that we see, not just in him, but that we see in mitch mcconnell, that we see in paul ryan, in our neighbors, our workplace, that we see all around the country. trump is just one indication of it, to my mind at least. >> he sews doubt. it's one of the worst attributes someone can have, to be sowing

doubt constantly. it's destructive, divisive. michael steele, what about what eddie is saying in i don't think it's about trump. are they living up to the responsibility? >> i would agree it's not just about trump. i don't think it's about the democratic party. democrats voted for trump too, and democrats will vote for trump in 2020. that is the under lying truth. eddie puts his finger on an important point about how this is reflected back in so many ways on us. but the truth of the matter is, to the last point you made, eddie, i think we're here because this is where we want to be. i mean, we can sit back and we can, you know, talk about a hope and we can talk about change, we can talk about optimism. we are where people want us to be. and so we don't move from here until we decide we want to move from here. so i guess i go back to michael

moore's points that he was making which begs the question, then what do you do? because the truth of the matter is, people are where we are because this is a reflection of the moment. and there are a lot of people right now who are listening to this conversation and going, well, i'm perfectly fine with this. i'm okay. i have a president who's telling it like i want it told. so where's the counternarrative? is the counternarrative a continuing gnashing of teeth about donald trump and how ugly and dark these times are. for a lot of americans there's light for them. they feel good right now. they feel better than they've felt in a long time because they got a fighter, they got someone who's going to push back against the crazy system that has kept them down. there are people who look at this flint situation and go, yeah, that's because the deep state wants it that way. maybe trump will change that.

we don't know if that's true or not, if you will, but for a lot of people that's their hope. and that's what they're pushing on right now. we're here because we want to be here. >> to that point, we don't know where we really are going to go. but we certainly have seen what we've been through. and i think, michael, you had such an interesting conversation, you said, with steve bannon about his thoughts. and it even affect ed how you finished your film. >> a month or so ago i wanted him to come on camera with me and my film and tell me how he pulled this off. and we sat down for two hours. at the end he agreed, smartly, for himself probably, not to be in my -- but he said the difference between our side and your side is that we go for the head wound. and your side likes to have pillow fights. and the truth of that statement, just really, you know, was

searing to me. because our side, and you talked about the republican party here, you've talked about trump, we really haven't discussed the role of the old guard of the democratic party that has kept back and has tried to stop the alexandria cor at thtez's of ou world. the largest party is the non-voters party, over 1 million people don't vote. they don't vote because states make it hard for them to vote. it's also because they have reached the point of hopelessness. they see that neither party will help them. what we have on the ballot in november, though, are a whole different group of candidates. there are so many progressive, young women, people that you

normally hadn't seen on the ballot before that you're going to see now in november that i think, i hope, will give a reason for the non-voters to come out. we should not be trying to convince trump voters at this point. if you're still for trump after two years of what you've seen, i don't know what can be done. you're still welcome at thanksgiving dinner, but that's about it. we should be spending every minute and ounce of our energy on reaching out to people and saying, hey, look who we've got on the ballot this time. it's not the same old, same old. the people of flint, michigan, they learned some time ago that the democratic party wasn't going to come to the rescue. and i show in the film, sadly, what the candidate and president obama did to depress the vote. if 8,000 african-americans in flint who voted for obama in his two elections and then did not

vote for hillary. did not show up to vote in 2016. they had essentially given up because they were being poisoned every day for a number of years. and not getting any help. but there has been a shift in terms of who is on the ballot in november. and i am encouraging non-voters to come back just this last time. this may be the last time. it may be -- stephen colbert joked when he introduced after the election the last president of the united states. that's funny, but there's some truth to it. and we have to understand that trump, he's always lying, but he's always telling the truth. he is telling you what he's up to, what he's going to do and how he's going to make the country, in his image and likeness. and this has to be stopped, all of us, off the couch, off the bench, into the game, everybody,

even -- so you say you're a republican. maybe we disagree on things. but one thing we agree on is, our time is up, right now. >> michael moore. the film is "fahrenheit 11/9" in theaters nationwide this friday. we only had a half hour this time. you guys got to come back soon. eddie, susan, michael steele thank you very much. stephanie ruhle picks up coverage after a quick break. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations,

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hi, there, i'm stephanie ruhle, this morning we've got a supreme standoff. the lawyer for christine blasey ford says she will not testify until the fbi investigates. >> asking her to come forward in four or five days and sit before the judiciary committee on national tv is not a fair process. >> but republicans, including those who say ford should be heard say they will move forward on monday with or without her. >> if she does not want to come monday, publicly or privately, we're going to move on and vote wednesday. >> any minute now, president trump will depart the white house to get a firsthand look at the devastation in north carolina. this as rivers continue to rise, as does the death toll. >> he was my first and only child. and now he's