again, i'm just asking for a fair process. fair process. let me be heard. fair process here from both sides. i want a fair process. i want an opportunity, a fair process. i want a fair process. fair process. fair process means hearing from both sides. fair process. i just want that fair process. i just want a fair process. i just want an opportunity, a fair process. we're looking for a fair process. >> all right. he's on mussage, brett kavanaugh, now senate democrats are waiting for their opportunity to requestion the supreme court nominee. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, september 25th. a lot to talk about this morning. >> we have obviously brett kavanaugh and everything going on there. there are a lot of cross

currents. >> the midterms. >> you've got the midterms. i'm not so sure this is all breaking in the direction that democrats and democratic active theists. also, rodney -- >> good job. good tease. you kept it short. >> he's going to the make a speech. >> oh, no. >> were you in congress? >> it was the spring of 199 7. no, but that was good. >> it was good. stop and then you move on. >> bbc's caddy kay. this is international know your value day. your book is being released. >> it is. >> this morning in australia already they have -- >> thank you, willie. >> they have gone in sydney to the opera house and stacked a pile up and started burning them. >> what? >> i mean burning torches and cheering for you.

>> can i take over and read the news.? but thank you, it is -- >> you have your outfit. >> i've got my uniform. i'm steve jobs. i'm going to wear this every day on my book tour. looks great. >> and his bank account. >> do you remember when i wore my same sweater for three years? >> even in the summer. >> yeah, the first fthe food fr thanksgivings ago. >> oh, thank you. >> rod rosenstein was carrying that over in his arms at the white house the other day. >> i actually could use it right now because -- yeah. i'm not resigning. thank you. bye-bye. let's get to the supreme court nomination battle. but first, i will tease

rosenstein because alex just told me to. is it resignation or firing of the plan overseeing tman overse probe? as noah rothman says, this has been a test of the constitutional crisis system. rod rosenstein going to see the president -- is it tomorrow? >> thursday. >> how about the timing. >> the world possibly falls apart on thursday had or it doesn't. >> so far, it's going -- rod rosenstein could get his job, brett kavanaugh could get his job, all on thursday. >> brett kavanaugh is defending himself from sexual misconduct from when he was in high school or clemg. in a letter, kavanaugh writes, quote, there is now a frenzy to come up with something, anything, that will block this process and a vote on my confirmation from occurring.

adding, i will not be intimidated into withdrawing from this process. the coordinated effort to demy good name will not drive me out. the vial threats of violence against my family will not drive me out. and kavanaugh spoke for the first time publicly about the allegations, denying he ever engaged in any misconduct. >> i was never at any such party. the other people who are alleged to be present have said they do not remember any such party. a woman who was present, another woman who was present who is dr. ford's lifelong friend has said she doesn't know me and never remembers being at a party with me at any time in her life. i did not have sexual intercourse or anything close to sexual intercourse in high school or for many years thereafter and the girls from

the schools i went to and i were friends. >> so you're saying through all these years that are in question, you were a virgin? >> that's correct. >> never had sexual intercourse with anyone in high school? >> correct. >> and through what years in college since we're probing into -- >> many years after, i'll leave it at that. many years after. >> do you believe there should be an fbi investigation into these allegations and that a pause should happen and sort it all out. if there's anything to worry about. >> i'll said all along and ashley, too, i want to be heard. i was first interviewed last monday, the day after the alleged appeared by the committee staff under penalty of felony and i denied this categorically and unequivocally. i said twice on that, i said i want a hearing tomorrow, last tuesday, a week ago.

>> first of all, that last scene which a lot of people have described as her being custody off and them. she clearly was uncomfortable answering that question. it's something that we do for each other in different settings. there are sometimes that if i don't want to answer something, you'll jump in. so she gave that look. that certainly seemed to be inbounds. also, very interesting. a lot of people last night on twitter and some on television were knocking the fact that he remained a version until he was married. obviously, central tenant of conservative catholicism, sort of the conservative evangelical world and of other religions. >> i think it was a fascinating interview. and i think the only thing that we can do at this point, the if we're really doing our jobs, is say this is what he said. and it needs to be considered

and these two woman who have come out with their stories and everything they have said needs to be considered xshl given how difficult it would be for any woman to do that. and i think everybody should want the best possible truth put out. that means we also have to let when it matters, when it counts, men speak, as well. >> i do agree. and i think it's unfortunate brett kavanaugh has called this part of a smear campaign because that by default is passing judgment on what these women are saying. but i think that is why we have to have some kind of an investigation that probably is

not what we're going to get on thursday, which is the senate hearing. and every fbi official that i have spokenen to has said to me, look, we do do this. there are things we could do. we know this drill. even if it dates back 30 years, we may want come to something dispositive. but people do say something different to journalists than they do to an fbi investigation. there are ways the fbi can ask questions and dig into information that journalists don't necessarily have. something that could be taken you out of this hido moment and made neutral is not like speaking to fbi. >> and what did you think, willie? >> well, i think it was extraordinary on many fronts, number one, that he did the supreme court interview.

number two, we have a supreme court justice discussing when he lost his virginity on national tv. but i think there are so many people behaving so badly right now, there's so much willful dishonesty, there are so many people that made up their minds and there are people on the right who are saying she's a liar, she's making this up. you have no idea. we don't know the facts. there are people on the other side saying he's a liar, he's making up his side of the story, you have no idea, you don't have all the facts. and that's why i've said what martha asked to judge kavanaugh there is a central question. if you're judge kavanaugh, wouldn't you want an independent body in the fbi to take a look at this, to clear this. because if they go through a senate hearing and it becomes a circus, they push it through, he passes, he's seated on the supreme court, there will be an asterisk next to his name as long as he's there. >> and why wouldn't they want an

fbi investigation? especially after this second story came out yesterday. alex, do we have those clips, those quotes from the "new york times" and -- >> yeah, prep the new yorker one here. >> so this was in the new yorker. republicans seized on this language. in our initial conversations with the new yorker, she was reluctant to characterize kavanaugh's role in the alleged incident with certainty. do you have the rest of it? >> the "new york times" now is coming. here. >> and then in the "new york times," the times interviewed several dozen people over the past week in an attempt to corroborate ramirez's story, could find no one with firsthand knowledge and they said she called people around trying to get a corroborating witness and while speaking with them said that she wasn't even sure if it was kavanaugh who had committed this deeply offensive act upon

her. so republicans are saying, wait a second, nobody is a corroborating witness at either of these had events. there are many saying yesterday that actually the second story ended up, in a way, undermining the first story. and i heard that not only from republicans. i heard that from journalists and i heard that from a lot of people who were former republicans who don't want kavanaugh to pass who just think that too many questions -- the more questions that are out there, the more inconsistencies that the are out there, the more ambiguities out there, the more it helps the republican cause. here is charlie last night on "hardball." >> i do think that this second

allegation has undermined the first one. this is the moment where you want solid, credible information that lines up. that's why it is a huge mistake for republicans not to open the fbi investigation. if they are concerned about these false allegations, make people tell them to the fbi. >> and, charlie makes the point there. the second allegations did, and certainly on capitol hill, a lot of democrats and republicans undermine the first story. not that people are questioning the legitimate of her story. but number two, if you're a republican and if you're brett kavanaugh, why wouldn't you want the fbi investigating these two stories that you say are the work of a fabulous? >> correct. and it's all part of this huge story that i sent is rumbling through the country with people feeling awkward, watching the

confirmation process of a potential supreme court justice, being asked if he had sex in high school. is the country exhausted by this? because it goes on and on and on. it's part of the trump presidency. donald trump has achieved his wildest dreams. he is literally the star of a daily global show. he is the most talked about figure in the world. and this costar, brett kavanaugh, comes to us, comes to the country. he seems like a decent man. he is accused of what he is accused of. the allegations have been level. now we spiral into a second debate. do you believe the woman? do you didsbelieve the woman? what has happened here is proof why women do not come forward.

>> and nobody's.hands are clean. the democrats' hands are not clean. if you're talking about why women don't come forward, well, this is the second time in a quarter century that a woman has gone to the senate judiciary committee and spoken with democrats and say i have information about the nominee. please don't reveal my name. and they leaked it when it became time for kavanaugh to cruise through the nomination. >> and there is one other aspect and it is common sense. no matter whether you're in the left or you're in the right or whether you live in the middle politically. despite the damage that's been done by the fbi to trump, people have to wonder what would be wrong with taking an extra few days to have the fbi answer some of these questions that have been raised. >> taking it seriously involves

looking into it. chuck grassley and others will be viewed as partisans on this. someone else has to look at this. so whatever the fbi finds out, that outcome can be respected. because right now, all we have are accusations. we have people who are alleged to have been in the room or at that party back 36 years ago who have come forward and said they don't recall that. so it's dr. ford standing on her own. let someone else look into it so we can move one way or the other. >> if you read the story, there were no corroborating witnesses. while there were questions about her memory and whether it was a faulty memory, whether she could identify kavanaugh. at the end of the day, she did. she should be heard, as well.

that's what susan collins thinks. >> while we want and we fight every day for women to have their is voices and to understand that our experiences and stories will be not only understood, believed, valued, but also in a case like this, isn't it important that a woman has her voice but also has to have her questions. if she wants things to bearing out in the law or for something like a supreme court nomination to be considered, if you feel it's your moral duty to understand your story and the process, isn't it important to expect questions, not to be smeared, isn't it important to understand the process they're

stepping into? and it might be slightly tough. you're telling a difficult story about what happened to you and people are going to question the validity of that story. is that to be expected or are we to be believed whole hog? >> no. we shouldn't be believed. and i think women are tougher than that. i do think we can take questioning and we should be able to take questioning. >> it's not our fault if something happened to us. >> no. these are serious action ecusat for somebody going for an incredibly important job in the country and it is porchbt that they should be able to with stand questioning. i think it's important that the questions be asking by something prepared for the process. >> but ford doesn't want that. >> but ford has said that she doesn't -- she would like the senate -- okay. she has evolved a little bit and

she has got into the midst of the politics for this. but i also think for the long-term if women are going to be believed, we've got from '91 where we weren't believed to now we are believed, but we need to get away from this narrative that women come up with stories that are rape. something like 2% to 10% of rape claims are false. but if we can get away from the narrative, that story line, oh, well, they make it up, will start to recede. so we need to be able to take those questions. >> and republicans can't only be for due whose when it's politically expedient for republicans. and democrats can't cry about donald trump's breach of

constitutional norms and can't cry about the lack of due process and then, when it's politically expedient for them, suddenly throw due process out the window. it's so amazing that republicans and democrats in these political events, they only believe in due process, it seems, when it fits them. >> united states senators, democrats saying yesterday flat out there is no due process in this. he's guilty. >> i am shocked by some of the things i heard from united states senators yesterday on both sides. >> and lindsey graham saying there is nothing she could say that would change my mind. >> well, lindsey graham saying there's nothing she could say to change my mind. mitch mcconnell saying we're going to steamroll over there no matter what and kiers tin kiersten gillibrand saying he's guilty.

there's no poirnt in due proces. why are they even going to vote? put your vote in now. if you've predetermined how this is going to turn out, maybe you were the ones in the dorm room. maybe the new yorker should have called you he three because you were there. oh, wait, no, you weren't. due process. listen to dr. ford and perhaps ms. ramirez and brett kavanaugh. >> and i just want to say that same message applies to the media. right here, this three-hour block of time is a smear free zone. there will be no convicting of either person on either side on this show. and honestly, if there's smearing of dr. ford or miss ramirez or brett kavanaugh on this show, you will be kicked off this set because we're not doing that.

it's just facts. and i've done it before. >> we've been harshly critical of fox news for being -- >> it's both sides. it's everywhere. it's mainstream. >> what we've seen the last week has made me want to call networks and put a "d" in front of the name of the so-called journalists that have decided that brett kavanaugh is a rapist. >> or what was the -- serial sexual abuser. oh, really? do you know that? really? >> it's frustrating. >> john mccain would be ashamed. john mccain is barely cold in the ground and lindsey graham is saying, you know, if he could have only gotten to know donald trump better, he would have liked him. no, yhe knew donald trump and h hated him for good reason.

>> this has not been the media's finest hour in terms of the coverage of this. but united states senators, if this were a jury and in a sense it is a jury because at least half the senate would be recused from jury duty. i mean, the prosecution would say, no, lindsey graham, he can't be on this jury. he can't vote up or down because he's already -- he's already indicated, you know -- >> kirsten gillibrand, the same. >> coming up, the only thing we can do is be fair. that other huge story -- >> by the way, can i just say for the record, john mccain hated me, too. >> but no, sort of in a nice way like my dad did. >> all right. coming up, the other huge story enveloping the national

conversation, the fate of rod rosenstein and the russia probe. as dan balls describes it in "the washington post," the circuits of politics & is overloaded. we have it all straight ahead. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> deluge is a good word for new york city this morning. so this little storm off the coast, this is still we're in the peak season of hurricanes. and now this area could clip the outer banks here, but we're not worried about it hitting the same areas that florence did. so this area off the coast, we're giving it a 50% chance of become a becoming a tropical depression. but it's going to head to the north and out to sea. chicago, the ohio valley, 43

million people at risk for severe weather. this will be mostly a wind damage threat, isolated tornados. tomorrow, that severe weather threat goes to the northeast. we have airport problems today because of the rain in the northeast. then we get a break this afternoon. tomorrow morning is fine, but if you have airport plans, d.c., philly, new york or boston, tomorrow, that's when we're going to have some issues with the strong thunderstorms moving through. just fine for texas. all of our friends in the intermountain west are had looking just fine. in the northeast, it's a rainy morning especially new york and northward. you're watching "morning joe." when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle, even if it's a better car class than the one you reserved. so no matter what, you're guaranteed to have a perfect drive.

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i'm meeting with rod rosenstein on thursday. we'll be meeting at the white house and we want to determine what's going on. we want transparency, openness, and i look forward to meeting with rod at that time. >> this was corvellian. it was masterful. he's going to fire rosenstein this morning. it was leaked out. he's going to fire -- ended up not firing him. >> no, no, it's the build up to the drama. >> but it kept everybody else -- >> why do you tell do something on monday when you get people saying with the viewers on thursday and you get double episodes. this week on the trumps. >> yeah. he's distracting from kavanaugh yesterday and -- but, you know, willie, one thing you can't distract from, it's too big of a story. >> what? >> you know what it is. >> the release of mika's book.

>> "know your value." >> this book was so successful and helped so many women get raises, we have updated it in the age of trump, put in new information and dug deep on all the strategies. go to knowyourvalue.com. we have so much information available for women and we need it now in terms of not only finding our voices, but using them effectively. >> i just would say, though, and caddy, you hear it when you're around mika. people come up to mika all the time, hey, i read your book and i've got a raise. >> and it's a practical message. i know the line you also have, what's the worst that's going to happen? the worst that's going to happen is they say no. but at least you've told them you want it and next time around

when they're looking for budgets -- >> you know, the worst speech mika ever gave was know your value to a group of hr leaders. >> actually, that went well. >> they did not want people -- >> except they want to keep good women. >> that's true. they want to retail good talent. we did an event for ibc on friday and, you know, dan hill runs a company where he wants to retain good talent. ceos and hr leaders, they can't read your mind. so they sometimes lose people because they're not asking or they don't have the preparation to walk in there and get what they need. so a lot of bosses embrace this. confident bosses complete thely embrace the message because they want good talent to stay and they want to give them what they need to stay. and sometimes it's not hard at all to do. >> and, willie, there's an added bonus. mika actually paints a vivid picture of a post nato world.

>> it is. >> there is that. >> goes throughout. >> you're going through, it's all about going to the hr department, you turn the page and it's about nato expansion. >> well, we rewrite history in the age of trump. >> she wants to believe the future of the tiny are a liance. >> all right. now we have to go. but the news was that we were going to get to is rod rosenstein is still the deputy attorney general. still ahead, we'll talk to a central figure in the russia probe. in 2016, rob goldstone was the man who sent the infamous e-mail to donald trump jr. offering incriminating information about headquarter had headquarter. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe." conversation t on "morning joe. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations,

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a single e-mail sent in 2016 set up arguably the most infamous meeting ever held at trump power. the man behind that one e-mail joins us now, british born publicist and music manager rob

goldstone. rob, good morning. it's good to see you. good rng month. >> so let's talk about that infamous e-mail. what was your objective initially? we should stipulate that you represent ayman, a big pop star, and he reached out to you and said let's connect trump jr. with these russian folks in the room. >> he wanted a meeting with a russian attorney. actually, with the trumps. trump jr. was my idea. i didn't know which trump to go after. there's a lot of trumps. so i kind of decided that almost -- i don't mean this the way it will come out. all rig almost the lowest trump on the totem pole would be best. i thought it would get don jr.'s attention and the most important line for me in that e-mail has

always been maybe you should just speak with ayman about this directly. and once they spoke in a phone call, my e-mail didn't get the meeting. my e-mail got the call. the call got the meeting. >> so did he is to you my father or someone in russia has dirt on hillary clinton and that's why i want them to meet? >> no. what he had said was that the our well connected either current or former prosecutor in russia met that morning with his father in moscow and had some potentially damaging information about illegal russian funding to the democrats and their campaign. i used -- i've been a fleet street journalist which caddy will know how impressive and how wonderful that is and i was a publicist. so i puffed up that e-mail using the information he had given me to get don jr.'s attention. and i always say this e-mail wasn't made up. it was kind of made better.

and if the idea was to get his attention, well, it got his attention. i just never imagined anyone other than don jr. would read these e-mails. >> why did you think don jr. would? >> i you thought it was perhaps intriguing to know what this was. i suppose it was so apt at that point that i thought this would probably get his attention. that's why i did hillary's name. the one thing i regret in almost all of this, the big one being pushing the send button was i never meant that it was hillary. it was the extension of this funding illegally in some you way to the democrats and their candidate. so i merely added that candidate's name in there. >> right. because you did say specifically in the e-mail information that

would -- >> yes, horrible phrase. >> so you're suggesting ayman did not specifically identify hillary. >> that's what i thought she was going to be the nominee. that's what i did. i'm not saying this was a brilliant piece of writing, by my means. it was written in three minutes to get don jr.'s attention, it was puffed up. i never thought -- i think people find this hard to believe that it would be read by anyone aern d other than don jr. they're quite powerful, but nowhere near at the level that they've been portrayed.

donald trump jr. once say the richest man in russia has come to see me. and i wanted to jump in and go, the 54th richest man in russia has come to see you. but no, that person turned out to be a lobbyist and they had grand standed and gone, of course we can get you a meeting with the trumps. then it went down like a game of telephone, father to son, son to rob, rob to don jr. >> the meeting, you were at the meeting. >> i was. >> do you remember paul manafort and jared kushner at the meeting? >> aside alongside them. >> did he stay for the entire meeting? >> i believe he did. >> manafort, there at the beginning? >> yes. >> did he stay for the entire meeting? >> that i know because he was just in front of me on the way out. >> you mentioned three candidates in 2016. >> wait. can i stop you for a second?

jared kushner said he left early because he was so bored with the meeting and it was a ruse. but that's not your recollection. >> my recollection is we all left at the same time. now, whether he got up and dashed out and we all lagged behind him a minute or two, that's -- >> do you recall joe biden's name being mentioned? >> no. >> do you recall bernie sanders' name being mentioned? >> no. >> do you recall hillary clinton's name being mentioned? >> i'm not sure. at the beginning, they did have some opening remarks. i must say i wasn't supposed to be at that meeting. but don jr. said to me, why don't you just stay and you can take the mat. which to me was heard these people out. >> how long did the meeting last? >> 20 minutes, 25 minutes

maximum. >> do you remember what don jr. asked at the meeting? >> only to make their presentation to begin. the only person who made a comment before don wrapped up the meeting was jared occkushne who appeared to them to be very generic, very general information about this supposed illegal funding to the democrats, jared kushner, who looked increasingly agitated to me said to her, i have no idea what you're talking about. could you possibly refocus. and i remember that specifically because instead of refocussing, the attorney -- maybe it's the translation issue, began from the same part that had seemingly bored him to the point of, like, what we now know texting his assistant to say get me out of this meeting. >> so did natalya offer, as promised, any dirt on hillary clinton or democrats? >> i don't know how you define

dirt, but the conversation started out with her talking about -- these were names i had never heard of at the time and have heard many times now about how the ziff brothers and bill brouder had funded money to the democrats which she believed was a bad thing because i think -- i don't remember exact, but i think it was because taxes hadn't been paid on this money and, therefore, it was dirty money. but it was very generic. and the only reason i remember that was because i looked over it in the direction of don jr. and thought finally, i suppose, didn't your father used to donate to the democrats, also? to me, it made no sense. and i actually wanted to incidenter jekt and s interject and say that and i said no. >> did anyone at any point express interest in information being given or ask for follow-ups? were there any other questions along the line?

>> the only points that were brought out was jared's comments, which i mentioned. i have no idea what you're talking about. please refocus. and when the attorney pivoted and said what i really want to talk about is the issue of sanctions of the magnitsky act as it relates to adoption. because my ears ricked up. you have to understand, my ears pricked up because i was like, we're now sitting in on a meeting about adoption. it wasn't long before don jr. moved as if to get out of his chair and the attorney said maybe it's something you could look at. he stopped it and said my father is a private citizen at which point i jumped up and said thank you all very much, thank you. good-bye. and i hearded them out, embarrassed. >> so based on all the knowledge you had, was it your information

that don jr., kushner, manafort, all of them were coming in to hear about how to get dirt on hillary clinton? >> you have summed up what i believed sitting in on that meeting. >> and why did you believe that? >> because my e-mail had said that initially. i had set up a call between emen and don jr. originally, remember, that meeting was supposed to be between one russian attorney and one don jr. after that call took place, i got the e-mail that said now we would like to add paul manafort and in brackets campaign chairman -- >> so after you sent the e-mail talking about dirt on the democratic candidate, then it expanded from a meeting with don jr. and the russian lawyer to the campaign chairman, the basically kushner who basically was running large chunks of the campaign?

>> not after my e-mail. after the phone call. >> so what happened in that phone call? >> well, that -- i wasn't on that phone call. as i have said a few times, i'm sure that's one of the things i would imagine that robert mu mueller and his team are interested to know. >> do you have any reason to believe that donald trump and his team knew that this meeting was going on? >> i have no reason to believe it one way or the other. what i would say is if my father was running for president of the united states or anywhere else and i was having a meeting a floor or two beneath where he was, human nature would say i would tell my father. so do i know if he told his? no. but i'm just telling you what i would do. >> did you see don jr. make a phone call as he walked out? >> no. >> have you been injured by the special counsel's office? >> i have. and also by the grand jury. >> and can you characterize

that? did they have knowledge of the content and the characters in the room? >> i'm sure they have knowledge of it. i think i was very much viewed as -- i described myself once as being a little bit like zillig, the woody allen character, that i kept appearing at these bizarre moments. without any reason. so i think i wasn't with the russian side and i wasn't with the trump side. and i think it was only a small part of what they wanted to know. and the meeting to me is a piece of a much larger puzzle. >> in the grand jury, did any of the grand jurorers ask you questions? >> they did not. there were two questions that were submitted when i was out, and they were logistics questions. >> how much did you get the impression the special counsel

knew that it had not come from you? how much corroborating information did he have in his questioning to you.? >> they had interviewed ike kalaza. they had his evidence. outside of that, i'm not sure. i mean, it was very much a very methodical, very logical experience. especially because they had come hot on the tale the of me having done some capitol hill interviews which were maybe a little less logical and regular. so i actually found the special counsel's process to be -- to make perfect sense and to be much more comfortable, if that's the right word, in understanding. >> all right. >> all right. the book is called pop stars, pageants and presidents, how trump affected my world. >> i like the cover with all the selfies.

you should do that on your next book. coming you.the president is set to address the u.n. general assembly this morning, but no one is talking about that. the ap's discusses how things are overshadowing the president's message to world leaders. e to world leaders. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, corded and cord-free.

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is he resigning? is he getting fired? i'm confused why there's so much confusion. >> i wish i could help with your confusion but i too am confused with your confusion. as those who are watching right now are confused. >> coming up thursday is shaping town a consequential day. >> did you think he would be fired yesterday? i did. >> i think there's a lot of questions -- i think he has questions. he's really got to consider everything. >> did you think he was going to be fired yesterday? >> die. >> i did too. >> i actually did. >> what did you think? >> i thought he was going to be

fired. now if he stays he has to recuse himself. >> it's complicated. >> i don't see anyway he fires rod rosenstein a month before the elections. first of all, it is the greatest, the greatest piece of evidence for obstruction of justice. also it will get every democrat and independent out to the voting booth. it would be the worst thing possible. >> firing james comey was also a display of obstruction of justice. i don't think this president is concerned about that. >> thursday we'll find out. >> it's possible we come out of thursday and they get some kind of modus operandi. >> we look ahead to thursday about the possible firing of rod rosenstein and scheduled kavanaugh hearings. we're covering it all. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back so shark invented duo clea. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look,

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so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, corded and cord-free. i think it's really important that there be a step back taken here and a review and i think it's a review that has to be thorough and complete and a review that has to include an investigation of what has transpired with all of these statements and all of these allegations and basically a time-out on this inquiry. >> so let me get this straight. so if you and the man that you work for breach constitutional

norms, create 21st century version of the saturday night massacre, throw basic issues of law and order sky-high over washington, and if the president commits the single greatest act of obstruction of justice by any chief executive since richard nixon saturday night massacre, you think that should reward you? and rudy giuliani? and donald trump's lawyers with a quote time-out? >> doesn't add up. >> see jared and donald thought that if they fired comey they would get a time-out. it didn't work that way. i don't know if you remember this or not, but when he was talking to russia's foreign

minister in the white house, you month the time that they didn't let any americans in but they let russians in with recording equipment and equipment that the intel community feared would allow them to plant bugs inside the white house. i don't know if you remember that time or not because you don't have a great memory. you and giuliani seem to forget everything that happened before. donald trump actually told the russian foreign minister and russia's ambassador to the united states that in firing james comey he was going to get a time-out. that the pressure was going to be relieved, jay. now let me ask you, jay, since donald and jared got their way and fired james comey, have they gotten a time-out, or has hell rained down from above on them for that foolish, foolish move that, again, breach constitutional norms against a

guy that helped elect donald trump, wrote that letter ten days out, had that press conference that nobody has ever had, the type of politicalized press conference in the history of the justice department or the fbi after deciding somebody was not going to be indicted. you're not going to get a time-out if the president of the united states has his thursday morning massacre. you're basically going to be thrust into an even deeper legal hell. so if donald decides to do that all i can say is buckle up, jay, it's going to get even uglier. >> all righty. >> what about the red sox? >> msnbc cricketer mike barnacle. washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan. national affairs analyst for nbc

news john heilemann, co-host of showtime the circus and pulitzer winning columnist and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. >> we need to talk about the red sox. yes they won 106 games. but it's the ugliest 106 in the history of the franchise. >> the least inspiring triple-digit win team they ever had. bullpen questions. starting pitching questions. we're sort of lucky to be there. >> we are. we backed into this. we are as i told you, willie, we're the little then that could. we picked up this scrappy kid off the playgrounds of miami. hey you want to play a game. want to play a little catch. a guy named j.d. trots on to the field and goes i'll try. >> was kicking dirt with hands in his pocket on an old empty lot. you said hey, you thought about

playing in the big leagues. that's what the yankees are like. this upstart against the behemoth, the goliath that's the boston organization. we're just hoping we get in the playoffs. we'll be huv told vis-- humble you at fenway park. >> you have one more chance to talk about this and then moving on. >> chris sale will start the playoff series. >> will he pitch two innings or two and a half. >> he'll go six maybe seven. >> from you to god's ears. >> the two of you are pathetic. >> we're the underdog. >> we did almost correctly predict the yankees were going to sweep us. almost. >> we shaved it to nine and a half. >> okay. >> we're just lucky they don't

play 164 games or we would have been sunk. >> brett kavanaugh is defending himself against accusations of sexual misconduct from when he was in high school and college. in a letter to senate judiciary committee chair chuck grassley and ranking member dianne feinstein, kavanaugh writes quote, there is now a frenzy to come up with something, anything that will block this process and a vote on my confirmation from occurring. adding i will not be intimidated into withdrawing from this process. the coordinated effort to destroy my good name will not drive me out. the vile threats of violence against my family will not drive me out. the last minute character assassination will not succeed and kavanaugh spoke for the first time publicly about the allegations, denying he ever engaged in any misconduct. >> i was never at any such party. the other people who are alleged

to have been present said they do not remember any such party. a woman who was present, another woman who was present, who is dr. ford's life long friend has said she doesn't know me and never remembers being at a party with me at any time in her life. and, yes, there were parties. and the drinking age was 18. yes, the seniors were legal and had beer there. yes, people might have had too many beers on occasion. and people generally in high school, i think all of us have done things we look back on in high school and regret or cringe a bit. but that's not what we're talking about. we're talking about an allegation of sexual assault. >> were there times when perhaps you drank so much -- was there ever a time you drank so much you couldn't remember what happened the night before? >> no. that never happened. >> you never said to anyone i don't remember anything about last night? >> no, it did not happen. i did not have sexual

intercourse or anything close to sexual intercourse in high school or for many years thereafter. and the girls from the schools i went to and i, were friends. >> you're saying through all these years that were in question you were a virgin. >> that's correct. >> never had sexual intercourse with anyone in high school. >> correct. >> through your years in college. >> many years after i'll leave it at at that time. many years after. >> wow. all right. let's -- i would like to get reaction. i thought it was a compelling choice to put himself out there along with his wife who i really feel for this morning. it's just got to be so difficult for both sides of this story, for people on both sides of the story. >> for both sides. what did you think? >> i thought he did the job he needed to do in terms of reaching a base. he lacked much emotion.

he didn't come across as massively human and i think some in the white house might have been hoping he would come across as a little bit more relatable. i don't know how many times he said i want a fair process but it must run to 20 or so. so this constant repetition of talking points made it took like he was constantly repeating talking points. maybe there wasn't much he could do in that situation, he did the best job he could. >> he put some information out there that if it's refutable he knows women would be refuting it at this point. i thought it was fascinating -- >> you thought that was compelling when he said -- >> i'm not saying that the two women who have come forward are not telling truth. i'm just saying that his side of the story appears to be compelling given what he's putting out there, personal information. this has got to be deeply gutting for his family. who is also going through so

much. >> i wish we were not having this. i'm having some ptsd from the clinton years. he is saying he didn't have sexual intercourse anders a virgin for many years. it doesn't mean he didn't do this. >> i totally agree. >> so, jonathan, how did the events break down? hi, kids. don't switch to nickolodeon let. we're talking baseball. so, when you take what kavanaugh had to say, when you take "the new yorker" story yesterday, how do you see things break down yesterday in sort of the tide of all of this. what direction does it seem to be going? >> republicans in the white house were very nervous about the momentum. they pushed kavanaugh to be more on the offensive. they felt they were losing control of the story. they called into question some of the allegations in the new yorker piece. more and more republican senators voiced concern about the process, seemed less of a

sure thing as we go into thursday. they wanted him to go out there, to find what they thought was a friendly home, fox news for this interview. let's take a step back. what an unusual thing for a supreme court nominee to be on some sort of public relations offensive to sell themselves to senators and american public. he's suggesting he's the least popular nominee we've ever seen be nominated to the bench. the white house thought this thing went okay, was the sense i got in the round of calls i made last night. they thought certainly he seemed -- he tried to suggest some sincerity but he got stuck on talking points. not a lot of fire there. they were hoping for more determination. do this. more defiance. he didn't deliver that. of course, the scene of him there with his wife talking about this, is deeply sort of painful and uncomfortable to watch. >> i was going to say what you did see is a supreme court

nominee who has dug in, who said definitively this didn't happen. no way out of that if evidence to the contrary comes up beyond what the original accusation is. you saw senate majority leader who is dug in, saying we'll have a vote on this. he was asked judge kavanaugh, is donald trump behind you. he said he called me today and i'm with you. a white house is dug in on this. they believe if they concede this, if they let kavanaugh step out of this process it sets a terrible process an accusation can derail a lifetime appointment to the most important judicial body in the world. >> another element to it, i would submit. it's when you step back from the pictures that we just saw and the language we just heard and it is this. you wonder what's going on out in the country, if anybody is thinking about the fact that this man is being nominated for the supreme court of the united states, a lifetime appointment, whose opinions will affect for generations to come.

and he is on tv and it's sad and kind of depressing to watch this candidate for the supreme court to be using talking points in this process. to be referring to -- we hope that the republicans are hoping that he reached the base. this is a supreme court nominee. and this has never happened before. i don't think any of us can recall or have ever seen a candidate for the united states supreme court going on a friendly tv network and it was a fair interview. >> it was a good interview. >> going through the interview process of like a candidate would, but he's a candidate for the supreme court. >> right now i think he's trying -- >> this is also unprecedented. the attacks against him have been unprecedented. and so if i were in the white house, and it was a democratic white house, i would be saying there's one unprecedented attack

after another. there's one accusation after another. if you want to get out there and you and your wife want to get out there or you and your husband want to go out and talk about it, go ahead. >> the republicans should ask for an fbi investigation. >> this will forever follow him if he's on the court. the >> even if he's not on the court this will forever follow him. what is he supposed to do, back away? if these accusations are not true, and if you're in his position and he believes they are not true, you can't run away from this. you got children. >> i agree. but to jonathan's point wouldn't you be a bit more forceful? >> i think that's just not his style. >> he's a federal judge. he's been a judge. he's not a politician. i would just say i think we all should be pretty careful in judging his performance on how he did after two weeks in hell in a bunker with his wife and

children. and i think the same for dr. ford and the same for miss ramirez, if they testify -- people can judge them based on their, their performance on television given the hell that they've also been going through. by the way, i personally think -- again, i've been very clear. i would not support, if i were -- if i had a vote i would not support kavanaugh becoming a member of the united states supreme court because he refused to say that the united states congress or the president should not bar somebody from coming into the united states based on race alone. i think that's disqualifying. but all that being said, i actually think what he did on television yesterday with his wife actually will help him a good bit in america. i just do. across america at least middle america. i'm curious, john heilemann, to

gel your input on everything that happened yesterday but first i want to play you a clip from "hardball" and this is charlie sykes last night. >> i do think that the second allegation in some ways has had the effect of undermining the credibility of the first one, because, look, this is the moment where you want solid credible information that lines up. this is also why, i think it's a huge mistake for republicans not to re-open the fbi investigation if they are concerned about these false allegation, make people tell them to the fbi. >> john, i heard that from a lot of never trumpers yesterday. i heard that from a lot of former republican friends of mine. one former republican friend told mika and me if this goes on another week i'm going to become a republican again. sort of gallows humor. watching the news and i'm just

repeating what i'm hearing, believing that this is becoming less fair by the day, that everybody that's not on fox news has convicted him as a rapist or a serial predator. what do you think of charlie's statement that the second investigation, the second report may actually undermine the first? >> i don't know if that's true. i certainly agree with the second thing that charlie sykes said which i don't understand to this day, this hour especially listening to brett kavanaugh last night why it is his position and the position of the party other than pure politics is not calling for an fbi investigation. if you were innocent -- >> john what justification could there be? they are bringing up legitimate points that in the two cases there's not a corroborating witness that said they were there and saw that. okay, fine. if that's the case why don't you get the fbi to investigate that and just put it down one by one.

put it down in black and white. doesn't that help the republican cause? >> right now you have, in the case of dr. ford you have a woman who is making an allegation who is not just willing to go before the fbi under oath and attest to her allegation but has previously been demanding an fbi investigation and you have an accused supreme court nominee -- >> and did a polygraph test. >> you have a court nominee who is not willing to do that and republican party who has shut that down. and mitch mcconnell saying we'll have a fair hearing on thursday. mitch mcconnell went on the senate floor and made an impassioned argument which is essentially to say this hearing on thursday is utterly irrelevant. he said it last friday and again yesterday that judge kavanaugh will be confirmed. there's going to be an up or down vote. we're basically trying to get through this process as rapidly

as possible rather than trying to find out what happened. if you're confident that the nominee is being smeared by dr. ford and by the new allegations and potentially by forthcoming allegations from this client that is going to be brought forward, if you're confident he's innocent why would you not take the time and have the fbi put these people under oath, investigated as only the fbi, the greatest investigative body we have in this country as only the fbi can. to me it doesn't prove that brett kavanaugh is guilty of anything. but looking at the two sides those that are willing to go under oath and be investigated have a lot more credibility just on the face of it than all of those who are unwilling to conduct that investigation even on an experiod indicted basis. >> gene your latest piece is entitled "republicans will plow right through a minefield." explain that. >> that's what mitch mcconnell said friday he would do.

he told the value voters summit don't worry about all this stuff you hear, we're going to plow right through with it, and get judge kavanaugh on the court, and that is the problem. the problem is just as john heilemann stated it, as others have stated it, there has not been a proper investigation of these charges. i tend to disagree with you guys about the second allegation. i think most people who are perhaps not following every nuance of every of the allegations as well as we do, a second allegation is a second allegation. and that -- >> what do you mean by that a second allegation? does the quality of the second allegation -- i'm not speaking to this allegation specifically, i'm just saying i think that's a mistake that democrats and people in the media may make that they think all allegations are created equal. let's just pile up a third

allegation and a fourth allegation. boy the fifth allegation will really be the one that tips it. doesn't the quality of allegation, the facts of the allegation matter? >> the facts and quality do matter. but i do think there is an effect that okay while there was some smoke now there's more smoke. i think that's the way, maybe not most people, but certainly the way some people will see it. even if they don't go into the details. then the question is -- >> that's the not the way the law works. that's also not way journalism should work s-it? >> no, it's not. i'm not talking about journalism. i'm talking about people who follow the news the way normal people follow the news. but that's neither here nor there. the big question is why no investigation -- if brett kavanaugh is innocent and wants to get his name back, his name

cleared, then why doesn't he demand an investigation? why doesn't he demand that the fbi come in and say, you know, these claims are unsubstantiated? he would at least have that. he will not have that at the end of this process if mitch mcconnell gets to bully it through. >> willie, we may disagree on certain points of this story. i think we all -- a couple of things we agree on people on the left and people on the right shouldn't accuse ford of being a liar, shouldn't accuse ramirez of being a liar, shouldn't accuse kavanaugh of being a serial predator because they don't know. but we all agree there should be an fbi investigation if what ford is saying is true could be. and if what the republicans are saying are true, could be. have the fbi do an investigation.

>> the standard is not smoke. the standard is fire. how do you find the fire? you do it with an fbi investigation. by the way, this could have been a week into the fbi investigation if they launched it last sunday or monday when we found out about this. who knows they may have been done with it. what you have is a political culture with two sides with their minds made up. mitch mcconnell said whatever we find we're plowing forward we're having a vote. demonstrate senators say this judge does not deserve due process. nobody knows because we don't have an investigation, we have allegations. we ought to go after truth and that's not what a lot of people are after here. >> what would be more powerful for mitch mcconnell to say they asked for an fbi investigation, i have it right here. there's not a single -- they talked to 40 witnesses over 40 years. there's not a single witness that corroborates -- you asked for it.

we did it. there's not a single corroborating witness. he puts it down. kavanaugh passes. >> or there is. >> or there is. i'm saying what they are saying, if they believe what they are saying, order the fbi investigation. >> what we're asking, as people analyzing this, what we're asking for in terms of maybe potentially putting this in the hands of the fbi, is the same questions we need to ask ourselves. you know, i see people on television all the day long talking 100 miles per hour on this. everybody is talking fast, rushing to judgment, convicting kavanaugh or smearing these women. it doesn't matter. it's happening across the board. you talk to someone in real life about this, democrat or republican what do you think about the kavanaugh hearings and what's going on. literally like we were off set. the person will stop and go, gosh -- then we'll talk about all the dynamics of this and all the problems and all the concerns and all the issues women have been through. it is not something you can just throw against the wall and say

we figured it out. why do people in congress think they can do that. >> i talked about it before. we were at a family party this weekend. >> yep. >> everybody was talking about this and it's amazing -- i try not to talk politics ever but i'm walking through the room trying to get chips, hot dogs, hamburgers. while i'm doing that i'm hearing people in this stream of consciousness, they are attacking democrats okay. then they attack the republicans. i haven't heard conversations quite like this in some time where it's not tribal. they are attacking both sides and calling out the weaknesses in both sides. people jumping to conclusions leading to complete ignorance. >> still ahead president trump is tweeting about approval ratings this morning. how do those numbers translate to the mid-term elections this morning. steve kornacki joins the

conversation next. he's mad on "morning joe". >> the smile hides it. >> the smile hides it. >> in the very near future judge kavanaugh will be on the united states supreme court. [ applause ] >> so my friends keep the faith. don't get rattled by all of this. we're going to plow right through it. decent our job. t through it decent our job ations, so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, corded and cord-free. there is a chance that's the last time. 300 miles per hour, that's where i feel normal. i might be crazy but i'm not stupid. having an annuity tells me retirement is protected. annuities can provide protected income for life.

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boy, he really is angry. >> i know. he almost broke the glass here. >> you were screaming no. you were out of order. >> you're all out of order. >> we'll get to the rave, steve kornacki. mid-term elections are six weeks from today and they are on the president's mind last night. he tweeted in all caps at 10:38 p.m., quote, remember the mid-terms. just out this morning msnbc

maris poll is out. 48% for kyrsten sinema. new polling from north florida has the democrat andrew gillum leading ron desantis. 47-43. dead even race in the states u.s. senate contest with 45% each for senator bill nelson and governor rick scott. president trump tweeted just a few minutes ago about that republican party saying favorability is the highest it's been in seven years. three points higher than democrats. republicans only one point higher than democrats not three. the latest gallup weekly tracking poll puts president trump's weekly rating at 40%. 16 points below disapproval rating. joining us and msnbc steve kornacki, his book "the red and blue, the 1990s and birth of

political tribalism" is coming out. >> this is much better than his last book, "i'm mad as hell i'm going to rip your head off." >> where does the anger come from. >> i like the red and blue. >> look at those polls. what jumps out to you. >> arizona confirms what we are talking about, arizona is the most likely pickup opportunity for democrats. they need a net gain of two to get back the senate. you look at the four, they have a realistic or somewhat realistic shot. arizona they had most consistently the lead. florida is interesting because it raises the possibility -- democrats absolutely love andrew gillum. they may get him elected on governor the same day rick scott takes out bill nelson for the senate. >> so, help me out. the states that can go either way right now, either way i have

missouri, arizona, nevada, florida, west virginia, indiana, tennessee, perhaps on the outside texas. >> this is the way i would look at it if you had to rank them. democrats needing a net gain -- republicans trying to get gains here in those democratic seats. north dakota. the single most vulnerable democratic is heidi heitkamp in north dakota. battle for number two is between florida and missouri. who is more endangered. nelson or mccaskill. >> mccaskill is mccaskill. >> she's survived close races. scott is a strong candidate. then i think look we had a poll in montana. some thinking tester had inflated himself. poll put him up only two. look at the lead in that state, montana, indiana sort of your next run. then west virginia on paper, you know, just because it's a big trump state.

manchin has protected himself pretty well. just arizona, tennessee, navy and maybe texas for the pickup. if the democrats lose two from that first column that i gave you they need to be gaining four. >> john heilemann we knew all along they had to run the board. but if it's a wave election. if it's a big blue wave election then you have, you know, ten, 11 races that could go either way. if it's more split down the middle, we may not know who is running the senate until mississippi has its special election three weeks later. >> yeah. that's right. look as steve kornacki knows this map has always been difficult for democrats, it's a historically difficult for democrats. maybe the most challenging map that we've ever seen in an off year or in a mid-term election on the senate side so democrats do have to have a big giant

wave. we're now in this incredible moment as we've been discussing earlier in the show, we're looking at thursday right now. two big things could happen. one how the supreme court nomination plays out is going to directly affect one of the central dynamics of the voting behavior that we're looking at in these mid-terms which is how women vote across the country in all of these states and certainly at the house level in a lot of key districts. republicans are, you know, the president decides how he handles rod rosenstein, how republicans decide to handle brett kavanaugh and what the fallout is from that. these are live issues that could contribute either quelling the wave or make it larger if it exists. >> my favorite quote in politic, former illinois senator paul simon said what did you learn in all your years in politics. i learned a lot of times when you win you lose and when you lose you win. this kavanaugh nomination lines

up more along sort of that thinking than anything i've seen in recent history. if republicans get their way, if kavanaugh is steam rolled through as mitch mcconnell says, that's an automatic motivator for every democratic woman, every independent woman, and a hell of a lot of democratic men and women whereas if democrats block kavanaugh, that's an wakening on the right, i think and a lot of angry motivated people saying we're going to throw all the democrats out. >> i heard the argument that if the republicans don't get him through that depresses republican turnout because they will say listen if you can get a supreme court judge in we don't want to turn out. i think it galvanizes them they have to hold on to the senate. they could be having this again. when you look at that list, steve, to what extent are each of these local races and to what extent can they tell us

something about the nature of the wave on the democratic side if there is one. i'm thinking florida in particular. andrew gillum gets the nomination. far left candidate in democratic terms. then you look at prebredesen whs a more conservative leading democrat. will we learn something where the democratic party is going from each of these races? >> there's a couple of interesting test there's. one is in florida where if rick scott -- the disparity you're seeing in these polls where gillum is leading the race for governor and scott is leading the race for the senate the big swing is nonwhite voters. rick scott is performing five points better in this poll. rick scott is performing five points better among hispanic voters than ron desantis. also performing a couple points better among black voters than desantis is against gillum.

scott made a very concerted effort have hurricane maria to win over puerto rico. he took many trips to puerto rico. he distanced himself from president trump when he made the statements about the death camps. but you are performing half a dozen points for instance among hispanic voters. that can make a difference. >> as a florida native or close to florida native, florida resident, how shock. i've been chokd that gishocked s ahead of desantis. that's the only state where donald trump is still doing well. >> we have to remember what we saw in 2016, i remember standing a few feet over on election night looking at those early numbers from florida and saying democrats are getting what they needed out of those three counties. suddenly you saw a surge in the other part of the state and desantis has align himself so closely with trump at least

until a little bit of friction in the last week. you wonder with that latent surge still be out there? right now gillum every poll i've seen. >> the two events on thursday will be defining for the mid-terms, the kavanaugh hearings and then rod rosenstein. certainly the white house is nervous about having to be aggressive about kavanaugh, so fearful about what that could do for female voters, how that could energize democrats. gene robinson, if rod rosenstein, deputy attorney general meets his fate on thursday and is dismissed that will further fire up democrats. how does it play the other way? how do you see his fate whether he stays in the job or is fired how does it play with republicans? will that turn them out to the polls? >> that's a great question, and i mean i think it probably plays well to the core trump base. but republicans need more than the core trump base if they are

going to hold either house of congress. they need not just the core base, they need the rest of the republican party and they need some independents. i think trump has prepared his base for anything he would do up to and including firing robert mueller and putting us into the full blown constitutional crisis. one other interesting thing i think that we see in steve kornacki's numbers and steve try not to be so angry, really should, you know, just take a step back and a deep breath. one thing we see in those numbers, i think, is that, you know, if there's going to be -- we talk about a wave or no wave. if there's a democratic wave, minority voters and women voters will be motivated to vote. they kill come out and do it basically. you see it in florida where

minority voters are apparently motivated and have, you know, are going to vote, gillum could win. those other endangered democrats in the senate need to find a way to energize that minority vote, energize that women's vote and that's the way they survive if they do. >> all right steve kornacki and eugene robinson, thank you both very much. >> we're giving you a gift certificate for a spa day just sort of ease the tensions. >> i appreciate that. the anger management class haven't quite been getting it done. >> we're getting you a lifetime gift certificate to bliss and rice-a-roni. >> still ahead last year at the united nations general assembly donald trump took on north korea's kim jong-un as little rocket man. today a year later he may have his eyes on iran. we'll talk about what to expect

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president trump will address

the united nations general assembly this morning. little less than three hours from now. one of the topics could be tensions with iran. this morning the president tweeted quote despite requests i have no plans to meet iranian president rouhani. maybe some day in the future. i'm sure he's an absolutely lovely man, exclamation point. rouhani said yesterday -- >> hold on. can we go back to the tweet. >> no. >> i'm sure he is an absolutely lovely man! >> it could be worse. >> far different than what he was saying while the obama administration was negotiating with that absolutely lovely man. fascinating. >> breathing, breathing. rouhani told nbc news yesterday he has know t has no intention with trump. joining us now former dod

official and former executive director, dr. evelyn markus and msnbc national security analyst. also with us the dean of john hopkins school of advanced international studies. thank you so much for the beautiful remembrance of my father last week. >> thank you for doing that. let me ask you first, there were fears coming into this administration that donald trump would be a war monger along the lines of his national security adviser, john bolton, talking about bombing iran, bombing north korea. in fact, if anybody has reason to be concerned with donald trump right now it would be people like john bolton because he's bending over backwards, paying compliments to kim jong-un and now saying the leader of iran is a lovely man. how do you sort through that? what do you make of it?

>> i think the president as was the case with north korea wants to talk with iran, wants to have his own deal. the reason he came out of nuclear deal it was obama's deal. he wants to cut a deal with iran. bothton and perhaps other in his national security team want to go the full load with iran, they want potentially regime change, they want iran to change in a major way. they don't want to sit down and talk with iran. as a result right now there's tension within the administration, we can see that the president is sending one set of signals and his national security team is sending a different set of signals. >> let's talk about north korea. there's been so much chaos on the president's twitter feed. the russian summit. statements he's made. yet we see the leaders of north and south korea coming together. we see donald trump once again engaging. has that chaos, sort of that chaos theory that donald trump follows in diplomacy led to

creative solutions in north korea that we may not have seen if we had a president that had gone by the book. i guess the best way to ask that question, are we better off with north and south korea today than we were in january of 2017? >> definitely looks better now but this picture can change very quickly. the problems is others that are taking advantage of the chaos to build their own strategies to serve their own national interest. not just south korea, china as well that's pursuing it's own agenda. for instance, the trump strategy has created a fissure between the united states and south korea. united states and japan. the south koreans have to rely on china in order to manage north korea. it looks like the president is very good at creating chaos but no ground game how he gets this home. i think that's what the iranians noticed. okay, we sit down with them. what comes next? he doesn't have a plan about how he'll deliver and they also read

the "new york times" anonymous piece, they read bob woodward's book and they have a sense trump may get them in the room but not deliver on what he promises. >> on iran, clearly there are different agendas from john bolton and from the president but the means of getting to that agenda seems to be the same which is maximum pressure on the regime. is there a concern the maximum pressure leads the iranian regime to do something, backs them into a corner where they lash out in some way whether it's through some terrorist activity throughout the world and creat as military dynamic that might spin out of control or lead to consequences we can foresee with john bolton as he is pushing for a regime change? >> the iranians are not likely to do anything crazy right now. they have the europeans on their side. the part that, you know, i think was implied here but we didn't talk about yet is the president is taking on multiple agreements, trade agreements,

nonproliferation agreements across the board simultaneously, and without the benefit of having our traditional allies with us. so in the case of the iranian deal they were part of the deal. basically the p5, the nuclear powers the nuclear powers and the u.n. security council, plus iran. the u.n. said we're going to stick with the deal. it doesn't mean that much because corporations will decide they don't want to be sanctioned by the u.s. government. but politically it does mean something to the iranians. they're under intense pressure internally. their people are sick and tired of them spending money on wars in the neighboring countries, including syria. in syria, that's one place where our president has been a little bit more hawkish than elsewhere. he's standing his ground there. he's sticking with secretary mattis and saying we're not going to leave until we've dealt with the terrorist problem. >> you think that's a good thing?

>> i do think it's a good thing. if we can maintain a presence there, it will help us diplomatically to resolve the overall situation. >> you've got the russians, you've got the iranians, the syrians. a lot of traffic in syria and yet our fighting force right there, a small footprint is certainly doing an awful lot. >> yeah, they are. there's a contrast in tweets, the president tweeting this morning that he's sure rouhani is a lovely man. two months ago he tweeted, to president rouhani never ever threaten the united states again or you will suffer sequences the li -- consequences the likes of which few throughout history have ever suffered before. the president says he wants a deal. what does that deal look like? >> he's also going into this meeting that he's chairing at the united nations which

potentially the iranian president could attend if he wants to because the meeting is on iran. i think he's trying to manage that meeting ahead of time. the deal won't be that different. ultimately there might be some changes on the sunset clause or ballistic missiles, but the iranians are going to ask for certain things. it would be a variation of what obama already agreed to. >> if i can add something, again this is typical of the president because he just signed yesterday this agreement with south korea, this new trade agreement, but this new trade agreement if you talk to the trade experts, it's not that different. >> how do you sort through the president on north korea where barack obama told him that north korea was the one issue that was going to be keeping him up at night. the first six months of the administration we heard from people high up in the administration that we were headed to a ground war in north korea, one place that has a

50-50 possibility. now here we are a year and a half later and the north and south are talking to each other. do voters take that as a positive and a success for donald trump's foreign policy? >> i think what's happened with trump on this is that for the people who are generally at the level of kind of following trump as a foreign policy president through his twitter feed, which is certainly the way in which most people get their information about donald trump, i think people who are inclined to think that the way he talks about everything on twitter is problematic would look back at some of the bellicose rhetoric and now some of the rhetoric that's the anti--bellicose and see a temperamental issue with donald trump. for most people who are much more focused on issues that affect them on the domestic level, are much more focused on stuff that rings closer to home, they look at trump as kind of being a big talker who hasn't actually done that much on the

world stage that endangers the country. it's an issue that a lot of us are focused on. certainly the question of trump's relationship to russia. people remember, obviously, helsinki. the iran deal, do i think that's going to be a salient voting issue in the midterm elections? i do not. >> thank you very much. coming up, we'll go inside the infamous june 2016 trump tower meeting with the man who organized it. rob goldstone explained why he reached out to don junior to connect the trump campaign with the russians. connect the trump campaign with the russians - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look,

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process. >> he's on message, judge brett kavanagh. now senate democrats are waiting for their opportunity to requestion the supreme court nominee. we have mike barnicle and washington anchor for bbc catty day wi c kay with us. >> there are a lot of cross currents, mika. >> yes. the midterms. >> you've got the midterms. i'm not so sure this is all breaking in the direction that democrats and democratic activists think it's breaking, because it's not. we'll talk about that later. >> yeah, good tease. good job. >> you like that? >> you kept it short. that's amazing.

>> it was good. >> this is international know your value day. >> it actually is. >> your book is being released. >> it is. >> this morning in australia already. they have gone in sid noydney t opera house and stacked up a pile of them and started burning them. >> burning what? >> it is pub day. you've got your outfit. >> i've got my june form. i'm steve jobs. i'm going to wear this every day of my book tour. same outfit. looks great. why change it? >> do you remember when i wore my same sweater for three years? >> yeah.

>> even in the summer. joe, it's july. >> you had the food from two thanksgivings ago right here on the shoulder. >> we're going to talk more about the book coming up. let's start with the brett kavanagh -- thank you. >> rod rosenstein was carrying that under his arm to the white house yesterday. >> he actually could use it right now. >> here you go, sir. >> yeah. i'm not resigning. thank you. bye-bye. let's get to the supreme court nomination battle. this has been a test of the constitutional crisis broadcast system. rod rosenstein going to see the president tomorrow for this meeting. >> thursday. >> what about the timing?

the whole thing. >> the world possibly falls apart on thursday or it doesn't. >> so far it's going -- >> brett kavanagh is defending himself against accusations of sexual misconduct from when he was in high school and college. in a letter to chuck grassley and diane feinstein, kavanaugh writes, there is now a frenzy to come up with something. adding i will not be intimidated into withdrawing from this process. the coordinated effort to destroy my good name will not drive me out. the vile threats of violence against my family will not drive me out. the last-minute character assassination will not succeed. kavanaugh denied he ever engaged

in any misconduct. >> i was never at any such party. the other people who are alleged to be present have said they do not remember any such party. a woman who was present, another woman who was present who is dr. ford's lifelong friend has said she doesn't know me and never remembers being at a party with me at any time in her life. i did not have sexual intercourse or anything close to sexual intercourse in high school or for many years thereafter. the girls from the schools i went to and i were friends. >> you're saying that through all these years in question, you were a virgin? >> that is correct. >> never had sexual intercourse with anyone in high school? >> correct. >> and through college, since we're probing into your personal life there. >> many years after. i'll leave it at that. many years after. >> do you believe there should

be an fbi investigation into these allegations and that a pause should happen and sort it all out? if there's nothing to worry about and nothing to hide, why not have that process? >> i've said all along and ashley too immaterial to want . i was first to be interviewed last monday the day the allegations appeared before the committee staff under penalty of felony. i denied this categorically and unequivocally. i said i want a hearing tomorrow, last tuesday, a week away. >> couple take-aways from that. first of all, that last scene which a lot of people have described as her being cut off by him. she clearly was uncomfortable answering that question. it's something that we do for each other in different settings. there's sometimes that i don't want to answer something, you'll

jump in. so she gave that look. that certainly seemed to be in bounds. also a lot of people last night on twitter and some on television were mocking the fact he remained a virgin until he was married, obviously a central tenant of conservative catholicism, sort of the conservative evangelical world and of other religions. >> i think the only thing we can do at this point if we're really doing our jobs is say this is what he said and it needs to be considered and these two women who have come out with their stories and everything they have said also needs to be considered, especially given how difficult it would be for any woman to do that. i think everybody should want the best process possible to get the truth out and there should be no opinion put out about what he said, because certainly no one's allowed to put any opinion

out about what these woman are saying without being burned at the stake. and i understand that, because women haven't had their voices for decades. we are at a moment when women can speak, but that means we also have to let, when it matters, when it counts, men speak as well. and he was sharing personal information. >> do i agree. i think it's unfortunate that brett kavanagh has called this part of a smear campaign, because that is passing judgment on what these women are saying. but i think that is why we have to have some kind of investigation that probably is not what we're going to get on thursday, which is the senate hearing. every fbi official that i have spoken to has said to me, we do do this. there are things that we could do. we know this drill even if it dates back 30 years. we may not be able to prove it, but people do say things that are different to juournalists than fbi investigators when

they're under threat of perjury. there are ways investigators can ask questions and dig into information that journalists don't necessarily have. something that could be taken out of this hideous moment politically we're in and made more neutral. >> i think it was extraordinary on many fronts, number one, that he did the interview. usually a supreme court nominee is locked in a black box until his hearing and until the vote. number two, let's step paback a think about we have a supreme court nominee discussing when he lost his virginity on national television as a way through this process. i think there are so many people behaving so badly right now. there's so much willful dishonesty. there are so many people who have made up their minds.

there are people on the right saying she's a liar, she's making this up. you have no idea, we don't know the facts. people on the other side are saying he's a liar. you have no idea. we don't have all the facts. if you're judge kavanagh, wouldn't you want an independent body in the fbi to take a look to clear this? if they go through a senate hearing and it becomes a circus, they push it through, he passes, he's seated on the supreme court. there will be an asterisk next to his name as long as he's there. >> and why wouldn't they want an fbi investigation, especially after the second story came out yesterday? alex, do we have those clips from the "new york times." >> i'll put up the new yorker one here. >> republicans seized on this language. in her initial conversations, he was reluctant to characterize

kavanaugh's role with certainty. and then in the "new york times," the times interviewed several dozen people in an attempt to corroborate her story and could find no one with firsthand knowledge. she said she wasn't even sure if it was kavanaugh who had committed this deeply offensive act upon her. and so republicans rightly saying wait a second, you have two allegations, nobody is a corroborating witness at either of these events. so there was the belief, many saying in the republican party yesterday that actually the second story ended up in a way

undermining the fis story. i head that in theable from ares x -- i heard that not only from republicans. i heard that from journalists and former republican who is don't want kavanaugh to pass, who just think that the more questions that are out there, the more inconsistencies that are out there, the nmore ambiguities that are out there, the more it helps the republican cause. >> i do think that the second allegation in some ways has had the effect of undermining the credibility of the first one, because this is the moment where you want solid, credible information that lines up. this is also why i think it's a huge mistake for republicans not to reopen the fbi investigation if they are concerned about these false allegations, make people tell them to the fbi. >> and charlie makes the point

there, the second allegations did certainly on capitol hill -- a lot of democrats and republicans think it actually undermined the first story because all the questions -- not that people are questioning the legitimacy of her story but just all the ambiguities, number one. number two, if you're a republican and if you're brett kavanagh, why wouldn't you want the fbi investigating these two stories that you say are the work of a fabulist. >> it's all part of a huge story that is rumbling through the country with people feeling waukd watching the confirmation process of a potential supreme court justice being asked if he had sex in high school. is the country exhausted by this because it goes on and on and on? donald trump has achieved his wildest dreams. he literally is the star of a

daily global show. he is the most talked about figure in the world. and this costar brett kavanagh comes to us, comes to the country, seems like a decent man. he is accused of what he is accused of. the allegations have been levelled. now we're spi ee're spiraling i second debate. >> exactly what trump wants. >> what has happened here is proof why women do not come forward. >> and nobody's hands are clean. democrats hands are not clean. if you're talking about why women don't come forward, well, this is the second time in a quarter century that a woman has gone to the senate judiciary committee and spoken to democrats and said i have information about the nominee, please don't reveal my name and they leaked it when it became moy

politically expedient for democrats to leak it after k kavanaugh was about to cruise the confirmation. >> there's one other aspect. it is common sense, no matter whether you're on the left or the right or the middle politically, despite the damage that's been done to the fbi by mr. trump, people have got to wonder what would be wrong with taking an extra two or three days to have the fbi answer, if it can, some of these questions that have been raised. >> i think mika has it right. we have to take dr. ford's accusation very seriously. >> very. >> taking it seriously means looking into it with an investigative body that's not partisan. chuck grassley and the republicans will always be viewed as partisans on this. they want brett kavanagh on the supreme court. whatever the fbi find out, that outcome can be respected. right now all we have are accusations. we have people who are alleged to have been in the room or at that party back 36 years ago who

have come forward and said they don't recall that. it's dr. ford standing on her own. still ahead, we'll talk to one of the few people in the room when donald trump jr. hosted a group of russians during the 2016 campaign. 6 campn - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. while deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, corded and cord-free. and fearlessly devours piles. but mania, such as unusualrder can rchanges in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on shaky ground.

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goldstone. hit's ta what was your objective initially? you represent the big pop star. te >> he wanted a meeting for a russian attorney actually with the trumps. trump junior was my idea. i didn't know which trump to go after. there's a lot of trumps. i kind of decided almost the lowest rung on the totem pole was perhaps to go to don junior because i was quite skeptical of what i was talking about. eamon had been really vague but had enough information for the e-mail to get don junior's attention.

once they spoke in a phone call, my e-mail didn't get the meeting. my e-mail got the call. the call got the meeting. >> did eamon say to you my father has dirt on hillary clinton and that's why i want them to meet? >> no. what he said was that a well-connected either former or current prosecutor in russia had met with his father that morning in moscow and had some potentially damaging information about illegal russian funding to the democrats and their campaign. i'd been a fleet street journali journalist. i puffed up that e-mail using the information he'd given me to get don junior's attention. i always say this e-mail wasn't made up. it was kind of made better. if the idea was to get his attention, i suppose it got his attention. i never imagined anyone other than don junior would ever read

one of these 137 words. >> why did you think don junior would? >> i thought, first of all, it was perhaps intriguing to know what this was. i suppose it was so apt at that time that i thought this will probably get his attention. that's actually why i did hillary's name. the one thing i regret more than anything in all of this, the big one being pushing the send button, but more was i never meant that it was hillary who should be incriminated. if joe biden would have been running, it would have said about joe. if bernie sanders, about bernie. it was the extension of this funding illegally in some way to the democrats and their candidate. i merely added that candidate's name in there.

>> i thought she was going to be the nominee. that's what i did. i'm not saying this was a brilliant piece of writing by any means. it was written in three minutes to get don junior's attention. it was puffed up. i know people find this hard to believe, but i never thought it would be read by anyone other than don junior. >> did you think the russians had some kind of concerted effort to help donald trump? >> i thought it was perhaps a bit of grandstanding with the family. donald trump famously said when he first met eamon's father, the richest man in russia has come to see me. i wanted to jump in and go, the 54th richest man in russia has

come to see you. i thought that somebody they knew had asked them to get a meeting. that person turned out to be a lobbyist for the magnitsky act. and then it went down like a game of telephone, father to son, son to rob, rob to don junior. >> the meeting, you were at the meeting. >> i was. >> you remember paul manafort and jared kushner at the meeting? >> i sat next to them. >> was he there at the beginning of the meeting? >> i believe he was. >> manafort there at the beginning? >> yes. >> did he stay for the entire meeting? >> that i know because he was just in front of me on the way out. >> you mentioned three candidates in 2016. >> jared kushner said he left early because he was so bored the with the meeting but that's not your recollection? >> my recollection is that we all left basically at the same time.

>> including jared. >> including jared. now whether he got up and dashed out and we all lagged behind a minute or two, i don't recall. >> but he was there the majority of the meeting? >> the majority of the meeting. >> do you recall joe biden's name being mentioned? >> no. >> do you recall bernie sanders's name being mentioned? >> no. >> do you recall hillary clinton's name being mentioned? >> i'm not sure. at the beginning the attorney did open with some general remarks. i was never supposed to be at that meeting. i was supposed to do a handoff. don junior said to me, why don't you just stay and you can take them out. >> how long did the meeting last? >> 25 minutes at the most.

the only person who made a comment before don wrapped up the meeting was jared kushner, who after the attorney had presented what appeared to them, i suppose, to be very generic general information about this supposed illegal funding to the democrats, jared kushner who looked increasingly agitated to me as i was looking at him said to her i have no idea what you're talking about. could you possibly refocus? i remember that specifically because instead of refocusing, the attorney -- maybe it's a translation issue. she began from the same part that had seemingly bored him to the point of like what we now know texting his assistant to say get me out of this meeting. >> did the russian attorney offer as promised any dirt on hillary clinton or democrats? >> i don't know how you define dirt, but the conversation started out with her talking about -- these were named i'd never heard of at the time and

have heard many times now about how the zif brothers and bill browder had funded money to the democrats, which she believed was a bad thing. i think it was because taxes hadn't been paid on this money and therefore it was dirty money but it was very generic. the only reason i remember that is i looked over in the direction of don junior and thought, didn't you father used to donate to the democrats also. to me, it made no sense. coming up, he's still on the job this morning but there was plenty of speculation yesterday about whether rod rosenstein would resign or be fired. if he does go, what comes next? t

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>> i too am confused with your confusion as those who are watching right now are so confused. >> thursday is shaping upton a consequential day. >> didn't you think he was going to be fired? >> i think he has questions. he's really got to consider everything moving forward. >> did you think he was going to be fired yesterday? >> i did. >> what did you think? >> i thought he was going to be fired. now if he stays, he's got to recuse himself. >> i don't see anyway he fires rod rosenstein a month before the elections. first of all, it is the greatest piece of evidence for obstruction of justice. also, it will get every democrat and every independent out to the voting booth. it would be the worst thing possible. >> firing james comey also was a display of obstruction of justice. i don't think this president is

concerned about that. >> well, thursday we'll find out. >> i think it's quite possible we come out of thursday and they keep the status quo, he goes back to the justice department until november 10th and then he's out. ken burns has a new documentary project and the topic overlaps with a key issue in american politics today. the acclaimed film maker joins us straight ahead. maker joins us straight ahead. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations,

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man who lived there. an internal investigation found that amber guyger engaged in adverse conduct when she was arrested for manslaughter. the report did not elaborate on that. guyger has been on administrative leave since the shooting and is now free on bond. 26-year-old botham jean was laid to rest last night in his family's home country of st. luc lucia. we're also watching this morning the sentencing phase of the bill cosby trial. the two-day hearing comes five months after cosby was convicted of three counts of indecent assault for drugging and sexually assaulting andrea constand in 2004. despite five other accusers who spoke during cosby's trial, constand was the only victim permitted to testify during the hearing. she appeared briefly and submitted a victim impact

statement. more than 60 women have accused cosby of sexual misconduct. he has denied all of their allegations. cosby could spend up to ten years in prison and be required to register as a sex offender. president trump says he does not support statehood for puerto rico, at least while critics like the mayor of san juan remain in office. during a radio interview with fox news, trump said he was, quote, an absolute know when it comes to statehood for the island and slammed puerto rico's current leadership. >> with the mayor of san juan as bad as she is and as incompetent as she is, puerto rico shouldn't be talking about statehood. with people like that involved in puerto rico, i would be an absolute no. >> the mayor of san juan hit

back, writing trump is accusing me again for telling the truth. now he says statehood doesn't come for me. the puerto rican governor also weighed in, writing, the president said he is not in favor of statehood for puerto rico based on a personal feud with a local mayor. this is insensitive and disrespectful to puerto ricans. back now to supreme court nominee brett kavanagh. the next hearing for judge kavanagh likely will focus on questions about the past. but his initial testimony largely focused on the future, including his views about the power of the presidency. >> do you think u.s. v nixon was wrongly decided? >> i've said it was one of the four greatest decisions and correct decisions. >> you'd agree then, just following the precedent that a court can order a president to produce records in response to a grand jury subpoena or can be

compelled to testify in front of a grand jury? >> i'm not going to answer hypothetica hypotheticals. >> joining me now corey brettschneider. also joyce vance. good morning to you both. out of the box, corey, you were the president of the student body at my high school, two years older. you were an advocate of the imperial presidents. >> i want to thank you for the record for constraint even then. >> it's good to see you. talk about your thesis and the oath in the office. >> it begins with a simple idea which is the oath itself which is required by article ii requires the presidents to say in the first seconds in office that he or she will preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states n

states. that's the job description. now we have a president who i think didn't take those words very seriously and sees the presidency, as you alluded to, as imperial, as something that gives one the power to do what they want because they're elected. that's the opposite idea of the limited presidency defined in article ii. >> as you look through the history of the presidency, is there anyone you can compare to president trump? >> justice jackson early in the republic's history. the opposite contrast i think is george washington who said in the second inaugural address if i disgrace myself lower than the office subject me to constitutional punishment and criticism. that's the idea, the notion that the person is not the office. and if the office is disgraced, it's up to all of us to defend the constitution. >> so the constitution, the oath, the oath of office, the rule of law, according to the oath that he takes, has he

broken the rule of law? >> i think that he has in many respects. i think that the travel ban, although the court didn't stop it, certainly the first two it rations that we iterations. and rudy giuliani told us when they rewrote it, it was for the purpose of trying to make it legal, what they were really doing was trying to hide a deeply unconstitutional policy. i think that's true in the general approach to the constitution that he's taken, which is not really being aware of it, not seeing it as a limit on his power. >> we've seen that as recently as yesterday with rod rosenstein, this president following a pattern that loyalty comes first. he sees the justice department as something that's there to protect him, rather than being completely separate and independent. >> he still seems to believe that the justice department is the president's lawyers, his personal lawyers as opposed to the biggest law firm in the

country that acts on behalf of the american people, which i suspect is rod rosenstein's vision. >> do you believe now based on the back and forth we had yesterday, we know there's a meeting at the white house for rod rosenstein, the deputy attorney general. is there a way for now rod rosenstein to remain in his position? >> it's a really difficult path forward. one suspects if rosenstein wanted to quit, it would have been just that easy. he could have tendered his resignation and walked away. he certainly understands how momentous that would be and seems to be willing in essence to take a hit for all of us to remain in place. the question is whether he can move forward without having a conflict of interest that would force him to walk away from the mueller investigation. >> the problem here is that the president has the ability to fire rosenstein and there is no protection of the mueller investigation. our constitution gives the president that right, but it's

fixable. all we need is ordinary legislation to be passed where there's an independent counsel who can only be fired for cause. i think it's imperative that we bring that back. if we don't, it's at our peril. the president has the ability to basically stop an investigation against him or herself and the checks are very few right now. >> we could get to thursday, have the meeting, the president decides to leave rod rosenstein in office until after the midterms. are you suggesting that between now and the midterms, because what has unfolded with the "new york times" article, actually he has to recuse himself anyway from the mueller investigation because of a conflict of interest? >> there could be anyone of a number of factors in play here. part of the problem is we don't know. there's a lot of uncertainty now surrounding his future. there could be an incident that he has now become a witness to that could make it difficult for him to move forward in his role supervising the investigation. many people thought -- i thought

we discussed on this set shortly after mueller was appointed whether or not rosenstein was a witness, whether or not he could continue to lead that investigation. that's an ongoing concern. because we've had this concerted series of events as well as the "new york times" reports, that will become a live issue. >> isn't he coming perilously close to the point where if he says, that he would have to recuse himself? >> the justice department has an entire shop of folks who do nothing other than consider these ethical considerations. they do it across the broad landscape of how people inside of the department have functioned across decades. he will undoubtedly get very good international advice on when and if there's a line that he crosses that requires his recusal. one interesting issue, though, is he's not playing a role in the courtroom and he may not even be playing a decisional role in issues where he would have a conflict. we just don't have a window in

on exactly what the specifics are at this point. >> how are the institutions holding up under president trump? that's been the question that one man is not bigger than the institution. how are they doing? >> you know, this is a stress test on the constitution. i think on the one hand there are the mechanisms to stop a president. we have this terrific case u.s. versus nixon about the ability of a special probability to sec demand that a president gives over evidence. you heard in that clip judge kavanagh try to pretend he is for u.s. v nixon. that's the subject that the entire investigation could be undermined by a president who is intent on abusing power and disregarding the values and limits of the constitution. >> joyce, judge kavanagh was on fox news last night gii inight.

let's listen. >> even by the far heft's standards, this shameful smear campaign has hit a new low. >> if you really believed these allegations are part of a despicable smear job, leader mcconnell, why don't you call for an fbi investigation? >> he has the right to clear his name. let's give him that opportunity. this is extremely serious and we take it very serious. again, these are allegations that are made and they have to come forth and he has a right to clear himself. >> it's amazing to me that these allegations come out of nowhere at the last minute and they weren't brought up earlier in this process. it's not untypical for our friends on the other side to pull that kind of crap. >> joyce, why not an fbi investigation? we could be a week into the fbi investigation if they launched it last monday when they had the

chance to do it. wouldn't you if you were judge kavanagh want to say, if this didn't happen as i claim it didn't happen, let's have a third party say that? >> absolutely. the best path forward for judge kavanagh, really the only path to exoneration is through an independent investigation. and how convenient that we have in this country a bureau of people who actually engage in independent investigations. the fbi background checks every employee, every appointee who enters federal service. they are well used to going back 30, 40, 50 years in people's lives. it's in judge kavanagh's best interest to have that process move forward if he truly has not engaged in this conduct, he deserves exoneration. by the same token, these allegations need to be fully vetted so that we know. >> why would that background check have missed these

allegations if they were true? >> it's a really good question. we don't know the answer to that. is it because the fbi didn't vet out to the right number of people? typically they'll go back to when you're 18. it may be that high school allegations were missed or it may be that people didn't come forward. >> the book is "the oath and the office, a guide to the constitution for future presidents" an important read right now. up next, tom brokaw and acclaimed film maker ken burns join our conversation. "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪ ng joe" is coming right back ♪ so a tree falls on your brand new car and totals it. and as if that wasn't bad enough, now your insurance won't replace it outright because of depreciation. if your insurance won't replace your car, what good is it? you'd be better off just taking your money and throwing it right into the harbor. i'm gonna regret that. with new car replacement,

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more than 20 people died in the tornado that swept through rochester that summer day. dozens more were injured. the sisters of st. francis has done what they could to help. but afterwards, mother alfred knew they could have done more. then she had her vision of building a hospital. a place she insisted would be open to all sick persons regardless of their color, sex, financial status or professed religion.

mother alfred was a 53-year-old nun who believed that the cause of suffering humanity knows no religion. dr. mayo was a 64-year-old agnostic who a newspaperman remembered defended darwin by the hour. both were stubborn and impetuous. driven by a desire to serve. >> that's a look there at the new pbs documentary the mayo clinic, faith, hope, science, from those unlikely origins, more than a century ago in rochester, minnesota. the mayo clinic is now considered america's top medical center, treating more than 1 million patients every year, including nbc news senior correspondent tom brokaw who, i'm happy to say, joins us at the table, along with the documentary executive producer ken burns. tom spent a lot of time at the hospital. you went to the hospital yourself for a routine checkup and couldn't believe what you saw. >> you'd have a blood test at

7:00 a.m. in the morning. by 8:30, they've got the results. it's not a week later. it's not ten days later. they're able to draw -- all the physicians and surgeons are on salary. which breeds this culture of collaboration. so you never feel like you're alone with your doctor. you feel like you're always got you surrounded by this circle of people who have selected to serve in the same way that mother teresa and w.w. mayo were. >> you know, tom, one of the amazing things about the mayo is rochester, minnesota, world famous, and yet the story of the mayo, until now, has really not been told. led now by dr. john knowsworthy. the fact you go there, and you have an appointment for a blood test at 7:30 and you sit in the waiting room and there are literally people from all over the world in that waiting room. again, as ken pointed out, at 10:30, you'll see another doctor

based upon your, you know, your blood test results. maybe at 2:30, a third doctor. why isn't more of american medicine mimicking, trying to copy what is going on daily at the mayo clinic? >> i've got family members in the business of medicine. i was a member of the trustees there for two different terms. i've known about it since i was a child growing up in minnesota. it's a mystery why more hospitals don't adopt that policy. there's a lot of envy for one thing. on the business of salaries for physicians, there's a lot of physicians who don't want salaries, they want fees. so that's a big hurdle to get over. i think the important part of the mayo clinic, it's not just the hospital, it's minnesota nice, it's the whole community. i mean, the guys that pick you up in the morning, that get you where you're going to go. used to be on a dairy farm. big husky guys want to talk about elk hunting in colorado. then you get into the system and there's always somebody to take you where you need to go. the whole hospital is dedicated to making people well again.

i had two serious illnesses as well as being a trustee. so i was able to see it from the inside and from the outside as well. and it blew me away. >> ken, one of the impressions of the american health care system is of course there is excellen excellence. but listening to the founder, the nun there saying she wanted it to be for everybody, that is something the american health care system has not handled well. >> that's right -- >> how do they handle that inequality of wealth? >> mother alfred, not mother teresa, w.w. mayo and later his sons, will and charlie, had this basic essential humanity. and those values are still there. the nuns are still there. this isn't a quaint 19th century story. they are still there. they're influencing how the thing is done. as tom is saying, this is so well engineered you have this perfect science going on with efficiencies you can't get in these for profit places. or where the doctor is saying i need the fees, i can order these tests, i can do that. so i think it's just something

baked in to that original recipe. it's hard -- they're swimming upstream. it's sort of -- we say in medicine that's counter indicated. they're doing it the best and they've been the best hospital for a century, you know, rated off and on the best and i've never seen anything like it. tom says at one point in the film we were able to interview him, that the politicians in washington know nothing about what's going on with health care. i think we've allowed over the last 30 years for this debate to be hijacked by politicians who are just binary. and yet sitting in front of us is evidence of how you might be able to repair this system, if only the debate came back from -- away from a political argument. >> this will sound like a medical utopia. they're wondering, is it really transferable to new york city and to chicago and to los angeles? >> that's i think the big issue. they've made mistakes at the

mayo clinic. we they make a mistake, they own up to it immediately. i've had some people who were not entirely happy and they're all over it because they see their role as to just cure the patient. not about making a lot of money for one doctor or another doctor. one quick story about it. they have a kind of grand place in one of the big rooms. they have a piano player there, a nice lady from minnesota. a guy came up and said, can i join in, and she said sure. she went home that night and she said, gee, i had a wonderful guy came and sang today. he said, yes, do you know who that was? she said no. it was bono. >> great medical care and bono. >> just another patient at the mayo clinic. >> just another patient. >> it's an amazing place. the two-hour documentary is called the mayo clinic, faith, hope, science, it airs tonight on pbs. can i thank you again for the 18 hours of the vietnam

documentary, so much to so many people in this country. thank you. tom, great to see you. that does it for us this morning. chris jansing now picks up our coverage. >> let me add my thank you, ken burns, for that documentary. thank you so much, willie geist. hello there, i am chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. a defiant judge kavanaugh in an unprecedented tv interview, defending himself against accusations of sexual misconduct. he denies attending a party like dr. ford describes, denies ever getting blackout drunk, and denies even knowing any of his accusers. but he does know two things. >> i've always treated women with dignity and respect, dignity and respect. dignity and respect. i am looking for a fair process. fair process. fair process. fair process. let me be heard. fair process. hear from both sides. >> general confusion. deputy attorney general rosenstein still has a job over seeing the