now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the american president had really important things that he could have drawn the attention of the national press to today. the florida panhandle was demolished lie hurricane michael. people died. hundreds of thousands are still without power. in a normal white house, the fact that one of the president's closest allies on the world stage, saudi arabia's crown prince muhammad bin salman, known as mbs, reportedly ordered an operation to lure "washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi back to saudi arabia with a goal of detaining him would be big news. especially since he hasn't been seen since he entered the saudi consulate in turkey and is believed to be dead. in a normal white house, a president would want to know if his presidential daily brief or pdb included the signal intelligence reported by "the washington post" that suggests that u.s. intelligence officials knew about the saudi leader's desire to detain "the washington post" columnist. if the president didn't know,

how high up did the intel go? did the dni know, the director of the cia? in a normal white house, aides would still feel the image of donald trump flicking paper towels at the victims of hurricane maria would require that he visit the d.c. headquarters of fema on a day like today to show him as attentive and in touch with the pain and suffering of the people of florida. in a normal white house, they would have bob corker and bob menendez down to the white house to discuss their concerns about saudi arabia, especially their calls for sanctions for one of the president's closest allies. in a normal white house, the president's national security team might just want to start a list of all of jared kushner's contacts with the young crown prince of saudi arabia. out of concern that the optics alone of the two young men huddled closely literally and figurative lie might be damaging if we come to learn the turkish reports of 15 saudis flying to

turkey and entering the consulate there to kill and dismember "the washington post" columnist are true. and that the administration knew that the saudi leader intended to detain khashoggi. in a normal white house, that would all count as a full-blown national security crisis. but this isn't a normal white house. not even close. so today in front of a full press pool with an extended question and answer period, the president of the united states turned the oval office over to kanye west who sat across from him at the resolute desk. watch. >> it was something about when i put this hat on, it made me feel like superman. i love hillary. i love everyone, right? but the campaign "i'm with her" just didn't make me feel as a guy that didn't get to see my dad all the time like a guy that could play catch with his son. there's a lot of things affecting our mental health that makes us do crazy things that puts us back into that trap door called the 13th amendment. i did say abolish with the hat

on because why would you keep something around that's a trap door. this is our president. he has to be the freshest, the fliest, the fliest pains, the best factories and we have to make our core be empowered. trump is on his hero journey right now. and he might not have expected to have a crazy [ bleep ] like kanye west run up and support, but best believe, we are going to make america great. i love this guy right here. let me give this guy -- >> joining us from "the new york times," chief white house correspondent peter baker, kimberly atkins. and with us at the table, my colleague chris matthews, host of "hardball" on msnbc. chairman michael steele, former rnc chairman. and rick stangle, former undersecretary of state. chris? >> you know, just to set my bona fides on the table. >> you don't have to do that. >> i was substituting on night

watch in the middle of the night show on cbs and had to do a whole interview program on something called hip hop. and i managed to carry out the entire time without having any idea what i was talking about. i didn't know if it was music or what it was. i just said things like, so what is hip hop? how does it work? it was the most primitive thing in the world. here i go not having made much progress except i do understand president trump. as much as any of us do. he always shoots the moon. he does the thing in the context of ideas and politics that the other people don't do. here he is sitting with a hip-hop guy who apparently has got some bizarre politics that, fine. i think it's also -- it runs against the idea that he's a racist. it runs against the idea that trump doesn't like minorities, that he's going after hirona, maxine waters, the usual suspects in politics in sort of a racial way. here he is flipping it and confusing people. mainly it's for white people because white people won't vote

for a guy, most of them, if they think they're racist. if you show you're not in some plaintiff, cartoonish way, it gets him off the hook. you know what i'm saying? >> there's an entertainment story, race story, entertainment story here. i'm going to confess to being out of my depth on the race run and the entertainment front so let's watch a little bit of "snl" from the entertainment side of this story. >> kanye is a genius, but like a musical genius like joey chestnut is a hot dog eating genius. i don't want to hear joey's opinion about things not hot dog related. >> anything conway can go to win you back? >> yeah, i'll tell you in a way that kanye understands. i made this. make kanye 2006 again. >> michael steele? >> yeah, yeah. i understand where you're coming from, chris. i think, though, beyond anything else, you set the narrative, i think, the correct way.

given the tragedy that's in florida, given the international concern regarding "the washington post" reporter, the president entertaining an artist, okay, fine. who then comes into the oval office. it becomes a back drop. and he proceeds to bang on the resolute desk. he begins to use foul language in that space. to me, it's unsettling. and i think to chris' point, that's the, quote, genius of trump that he offsets these very important things with this kind of maniacal madness known as reality tv presidential politics. the fact of the matter is, i'm sorry, meet with kanye does not absolve you of your position on charlottesville. it does not absolve you on talking about the continent where my ancestors came from as an s hole. so you can meet with kanye and

have your bromance moment. but the american people see through it and see it for what it is. and if you think the black community is going to wake up and go, he met with kanye. i think i'll go vote for trump. that's not how that works. >> i want you to keep talking, but let me just ask you one follow up. and then i want to hear more of your thoughts. i think this is what stuns me about this white house. how do none of them know what you just said? >> you know, it's -- how do they not know? well, because for them, this is a prop moment. this is not a substantive moment where you'd bring in leaders of, you know, the black community, hispanic community and others. particularly around the folks who are impacted in florida. if you want to connect the dot that way. this is not about that. this is about entertaining the president's passions. and fulfilling his desire to be the front and center moment.

that's all this is about. >> he's so needy for approval. if president obama had lunch with all the a-list celebrities who liked him, he'd never be able to do his job. >> every a-list celebrity who likes him. >> how with people dead in florida and a greencard holder, a journalist for "the washington post" missing, possibly dismembered, how are we talking about the president's needs? i'm just disgusted by -- how do your conversations always going to his primal needs for attention. >> i think you're talking like a government official. i feel the same way but i'm not sure the public feels the same way. and he is bargaining on the fact that he's entertaining, that he has, you know, something going on, that it's a distraction. people from florida. and kanye is an interesting person. like he's -- he is a musical geniu genius, and he's channeling something from -- going back from the black power movement and malcolm x and dubois, double consciousness.

black people can't have the perception that white people have. that screws you up. it's an interesting idea. it's a conservative black idea that goes all the way back to w.b. dubois. nobody is talking about that but it's an interesting idea. >> speaking of w., the same guy said he didn't care about black people during katrina. he shows up during michael and says, i like you. a little contradiction there. >> i get where kanye is coming from, but that's not a conversation black folks are going to have with donald trump. i mean, you know, that w.e.b. dubois and booker t. washington conversation to fill out the rest of that narrative is a systemic ongoing debate within the community as a whole. whether or not we do. manifest in the civil rights movement, the pressure points malcolm x put on dr. king and dr. king put on malcolm x. which direction do we go? some believe we do a little bit of both. >> that's not what that was. >> it's t was not about that.

it was not about raising black consciousness. this was about two guys who have a need for each other being in a very official space to legitimize that need in front of the country. and to your point, chris, the offshoot of it is maybe some black folks around the country will see this and think better of donald trump. >> i think your point was maybe some white people will -- >> i think a lot of this stuff is bank shots. it's not going directly white to black. it's going white to white by -- see, i'm not a racist. and somebody is at a kitchen table having an argument tonight. why do you keep saying this guy trump is a racist. look what he just did with this character from hip-hop land. and these kind of conversations are facile, but i think, nixon did it with sammy davis jr., with that weird hug. kind of squirmy hug he had with him. he brought in elvis presley. one of the big highlights of the nixon museum out there in california, yorba linda is people having weddings out there. chinese like to go out there,

nixon and china. it's about him meet with presley. it's almost -- there's a term for it. kitch. it's kitch. nixon with elvis presley. this is kitch. >> let me bring kimberly atkins in. i saw you nodding when michael steele was talking about how this one meeting on a day when you could draw the press' attention to the tragedy in florida or what is still a mystery around "the washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi. instead, he drew attention to this bizarre rambling meet with kanye west. but there was no line drawn. no effort to erase the trespasses of donald trump's comments after charlottesville. you owere on the set that day o bleep hole countries. you were here that day, too. your comments? >> i've given up waiting for the president to respond to human tragedy in the way we've seen past presidents do. he hasn't done that at all in the last nearly two years. and i think today was no

difference in that. i would like to dispel this idea that kanye west is w.e.b. dubois in just the strongest terms possible. i mean, kanye west was talking about everything like blaming black people's love of welfare on their democratic votes and just a lot of nonsense based in no reality whatsoever. what he did say is he was diagnosed as bipolar. if this can do anything it can draw some attention to mental health. there would have been a lot of people in positions of power who would not have put kanye west on television today because of that. i don't doubt kanye west's motive. he was there to talk about chicago, his hometown. he was there to talk about crime. he brought up some issues like stop and frisk, which the president is a big supporter of. and he wants to change his mind on that. i just don't believe in any way that kanye west, of all the people to have in the white

house today to talk about criminal justice reform. in president trump thinks kanye west is the best person, that's a big problem. >> kimberly atkins, you are the bravest person i've seen on television. i didn't know how to deal with this question of mental health but you just went there. his comments made me uncomfortable, and it gave me the pause. should i put this on television? we are called "deadline white house" and this is what the president of the united states did today. this is where he invited the full press into his meeting with kanye, not a meeting with fema or his national security advisers to discuss the khashoggi situation. this is what he invited the press in to see. expand on your question of mental health and the question of exploiting him. it felt exploitive to me. something very fragile and sad about kanye pulling out his

phone and frantically typing in his code and pulling up some weird picture of a car. just expand on that. it seems like an important point. i haven't heard anyone else on television make it. >> look, i'm not faulting news organizations. they brought him in. this is the oval office. this is the white house. and the president of the united states. i'm faulting the president and the people in the united states who knew they were going to turn what was billed as just a lunch into a press moment where they were talking about kanye and not talking about all the other important issues that you pointed out at the beginning of the hour. and just knowing -- this is not something that they should have been surprised by. he was just on "saturday night live" a couple weeks ago exhibiting very odd behavior. he's been exhibiting odd behavior for a really long period of time. i know the president loves that he wears maga hats and touts his love for him. but was that really worth this moment with somebody who could very well be in need of some serious help?

i don't know. i'm not a psychologist. i'm going by what he told us about his own diagnosis which he downplayed. i think that that's a problem and that's something the people in the white house need to be thinking about. >> peter baker, i want your thoughts on this and then i want to press you on your reporting today. >> everything everybody has said has been right. it's about speaking to white america as much as it is black america. he's trying to sway suburban voters heading into the midterms that he is not, you know, racist in his attitude. he talked about this at rallies this week. he talks about the low african-american unemployment rate, historically low. low hispanic american unemployment rate. he's bragging about this to almost an entirely white audience not because he thinks he's going to get african-american or hispanic american votes but because he's trying to reassure people who might vote for him or who otherwise might be turned off. that point is absolutely true. there's also just a sort of very trumpian nature.

other presidents like celebrities, too. this one was a celebrity. this was his identity before coming into office was a celebrity. not even so much a businessman anymore. he interacts with them on the peer-like level and sees them in the same way he sees himself. he brings them in because he wants to enjoy the company and show him off. it's part of his nature, i think, the way he runs this white house which is, as you point out, different than most white houses. >> to say the least. i want to read something from your piece which is excellent. you report on trump's contradiction. from the pot and kettle department of politics the president is trying to turn the table on his opponents this fall. a master of divide and conquer campaigning who gives critics belittling nicknames, calls his foes evil people and has encouraged supporters to knock the crap out of protesters. it's his opponents who are totally unhinged. i feel like we need to book a psychiatrist every day on this

show this is the ultimate projection politics. >> yeah, he's using -- he's trying to turn around the phrases people use about him like unhinged which was omarosa's book title or words like crazy and all of that. and turn it around to his opponents because of the brett kavanaugh thing. he's pointing to protests that were held at the capitol during the confirmation battle and trying to galvanize his own support by saying look at this left wing mob. this is what you have waiting for you if you don't stop them in the election coming up. these are people who will be in charge. there's a projection quality to it because he's the one in 2016 who would talk about roughing up protesters. i'd like to punch him in the face. he would defend in court, any of his supporters who happened to beat up a protester. so the idea he'd then turn around and point to the democrats is, you know, rich in irony. the democrats, there is a debate going on among them. how tough should they be? should they take the rye road as michelle obama said two years ago or kick them when they're

down as eric holder said this week. this is fundamental among democrats. should they respond fire with fire or try to take a different approach. this is something he's trying to capitalize on. >> do you want to get the last word? what should they do? >> well, that's the question that we can't answer here. we're not the umpires. there are no umpires. the democratic left, the progressive activists wing of the democratic party is going to go all out. they're going to promise health care for all. meds ca medicare for all. promise free college and probably some sort of getting rid of trump plan. whether it's the 25th amendment or impeachment. they'll go all ought. give all the speeches you want. you're not going to stop him because that may well work in the primaries and win that stuff on the -- in the iowa front and going through south carolina and going through nevada to california. all this decrying of the democratic party not showing itself. it is a big part of the democratic party.

and trump will exploit it, point to it. he'll say that's the democratic party, the socialist party. fair enough. this is going to be one hell of a -- talk about polarization as a disease. this country politically is polarized to the point where the anti-trump people begin to act like trump in their manner, their manners and they're going to go head-to-head with him, and they're going to like it because they can win. a cory can win. a kamala can win. an elizabeth can win. bernie can come back and win because the party is an angry mood and trump has made them so angry they may not be brilliant. >> we'll pick this up later in the show. when we come back, the national security crisis the president may wish he spent more attention to today. the disappearance of a "washington post" columnist targeted by the saudi crown prince. and hope and change 2.0. michelle obama doubles down on the high road. we'll show you her brand-new interview and message of hope. stay with us. it was the last song of the night.

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"the washington post" today reports the crown prince of saudi arabia muhammad bin salman ordered an operations to lure "washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi back to saudi arabia from his home in virginia and then detain him, according to u.s. intelligence intercepts of saudi officials discussing the plan. and "the new york times" writes, for president trump who has made saudi arabia the fulcrum of his middle east policy, the possible murder of a saudi journalanist tu in turksy a looming crisis. for jared kushner it's a personal reckoning. those are the stakes. here's why it matters. jamal khashoggi, "the washington

post" columnist who disappeared and is believed to be dead was a critic of the young saudi leader. he was living in exile in virginia. he applied for a green card. he wanted to visit the consulate because he feared for his safety. put that window into khashoggi's state of mind together with reporting on what u.s. intelligence officials intercepted, overheard the saudis talking about. luring him to saudi arabia for the purpose of detaining him. add the jared factor and what questions about u.s. national security officials heard and when they knew it and you have a full-blown national security crisis. take it from me. joining us is ned price, a former national security council spokesman under president obama and a former cia officer, now an msnbc analyst. i heard you speaking about this last night. i wonder if you can explain to our viewers what the government -- what the intelligence agencies are supposed to do if they believe a green card holder is in danger. >> sure, nicolle.

we learned from "the washington post" in the past 48 hours that the u.s. government intercepted communications of the saudis hatching a kidnapping plot to lure jamal khashoggi back to his native saudi arabia. there is something called intelligence community directive 191 which requires that the intelligence community, when it comes into possession of a threat of murder, of bodily harm and of kidnapping to a u.s. citizen or non-u.s. citizen alike it places a requirement on the intelligence community. that it then inform that person of the danger he or she is in. the fact that jamal carb ghkhas went to a diplomatic facility alone, walked in there, didn't steam have any concerns, didn't express it to friends or family before he walked into the diplomatic facility. it raises the question as to whether that warning was ever delivered. we have no indication it ever was. and if it wasn't, it raises a question as to why. usually this is pretty automatic. it's done within the intelligence community itself. there's no policy intervention.

occasionally when there are extraordinary circumstances, a former colleague, for example, reminded me that we warned saddam hussein when he was president of iraq of a threat to his life before the first gfl war. when there are those extraordinary circumstances, sometimes policymakers can intervene. and the question is, did the trump administration intervene in this case given its air-tight relationship with saudi arabia. >> is there any scenario where this kind of intel about a key american ally, about the saudi crown prince, wouldn't have been bumped up to the cia director level and the dni level? >> well, this information, as we understand it from "the washington post," circulated widely within the intelligence community. it doesn't appear from the reporting to be something that was highly compartmented or highly restricted. the question in my mind is whether this is something that ever reached the level of the pdb. we know the president has an abbreviated attention span and that means his morning intelligence briefings can be

abbreviated and somewhat dumbed down, you might say. but it raises the question as to whether white house officials like president trump, like jared kushner, were ever briefed on this. it's uncertain whether they may have been briefed before jamal khashoggi disappeared, but it's a virtual certainty that after jamal khashoggi disappeared last week that the intelligence community would have presented senior policymakers, to include the president and his son-in-law, with this information given that jamal khashoggi had been disappeared. you know, over the past year or so, the white house has crowed about jared kushner's security clearance. when he finally was granted that top-secret security clearance he sought for so many months they said it was vindication. now it may be a huge liability because it means that jared kushner was eligible to receive that information. he could well have had access to that information. and the question is, if he acted on it, before jamal khashoggi disappeared, by, for example, preventing that duty to warn

from going forward. >> rick stengel, i want to read from this "new york times" piece on jared kushner. they report that more than anyone in the trump administration, mr. kushner has cultivated saudi arabia's crown prince, elevating the prince into a key ally in the arab world and the white house's primary interlocutor in the kingdom. >> i met with muhammad bin salman when i was at the state department in midnight in riyadh. they meet very late. >> that isn't like a late meeting. >> it went until about 3:00 a.m. and this kind of co-existence between the two of them, they recognize something in each other. they're both princelings. they understand hour tw the son-in-law also rises. he's colossally ambitious. he did things we applaud. when i was in the meeting he said i'm going to let women drive and reopen movie theeater.

that's great. he also kidnapped all the saudi princes without due process and extracted wealth from them. he is this combination of things. one of the things that's great about traditional american diplomacy is we can go, young man, you have great power. you have great ambitions but you have to have tolerance. you have to be more progressive and do these things. that doesn't happen in this administration because jared kushner has formed this kind of bond with him. and it's partially about this conception of the muslim brotherhood. this idea of iran being the biggest threat in the middle east. that unites jared and muhammad bin salman. the trump people say that's a big threat we'll allow this guy to do anything he wants, including crossing the red line of assassinating an american green card holder and journalist. >> peter baker, let me bring you in on this. there are mysteries in this story. but whether -- what the president knew and when he knew it, what the dni knew and when he knew it, what the cia

director knew and when she knew it shouldn't be those mysteries because the republican-led senate intelligence committee could subpoena the pdb. they could have a classified version today. they could declassify a version. they could have that information by close of business today, if they wanted it. >> well, certainly questions an oversight committee would want to know the answers to. one question i would have is, when did they have these intercepts available to them. not just the president. is it possible they didn't -- they've only discovered these after the fact? we've seen in the past where events have happened n people turned out to have gotten intercepts they hadn't decrypted or translated or hadn't processed through the -- we intercept so much around the world every single day, and a lot of it, obviously, takes time at some point to process. had it gotten processed to the point it did reach decisionmakers prior to jamal khashoggi's disappearance. was khashoggi warned, as he should have been. so we report is had any answers to those questions.

nobody had been brought before the committees to answer them. nobody has brought them to a briefing at the white house. we don't have briefings at the white house of which we can ask these questions. those are the kind of questions you'd think both journalists and lawmakers would be pursuing. >> because there are answers to every last one of them. peter baker, thank you for spending time with us. when we come back, an american president who rails against the press as enemies of the people and praises dictators. and now a missing columnist. is the american president setting the tone or is he a nonfactor? become an accessory to the smartphone. ride hailing, car sharing carpooling... mobility services are proliferating. and there's a new generation who don't seem to want to own cars in the first place. it all means massive disruption to the car industry, cities, businesses and investors. ♪

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a few days ago, i called the fake news the enemy of the people, and they are. they are the enemy of the people. >> 70%, 75% is absolute dishonest, absolute scum. remember that. scum. >> i'm talking about the fake news media. they are truly an enemy of the people. the fake news, enemy of the people. they really are. these are really, really

dishonest people. and they are bad people. and i really think they don't like our country. i really believe that. >> it's one of the president's favorite applause lines at his rallies, attacking the press as dishonest and calling them enemies of the people. the conduct has drawn particular scrutiny because when paired with his affinity for dictators, it raises concerns about whether the american president is trying to import autocratic practices here. >> well, he is very talented. anyone that takes over a situation like he did at 26 years of age and is able to won it and run it tough. >> if he says great things about me, i'm going to say great things about him. he is very much of a leader. >> he's done a fantastic job in a very difficult situation. we are very much behind egypt and the people of egypt and the united states has, believe me, backing and we have strong backing. we've had a great relationship. this has been very successful.

>> so, krirchris, that was dona trump on duterte and asisi. >> look at the message he sent. the press are scum. we don't mind dictatorship. no interest in human rights in your country. they probably read that as well. that's a domestic matter. and i think they're shocked. i think we all are to the extent the american people have said he's one of us. he's one of our people. one of our journalists. and the way that -- the thanks to "the washington post" and people like that have made -- >> about jamal khashoggi. >> embrace him and say this is a guy that's one of us. this is a murder against one of us. and i think optics are important. when you see a picture of the guy lightheartedly walking into a consulate and no picture of him coming out and you read this

donnie braskow description of what happened to him in there with the chainsaw and everything else. i'm not going to forget that story. nobody watching right now will ever forget the story of khashoggi and what happened to him at the hands of this cute little crown prince. by the way, i'm not really happy with the fact that some other country, a tyranny run by a royal family kinds kinship with our form of government. there's nothing i like about the romanovs running this country and having jared running foreign policy and deciding we're going to move the embassy in israel and making decisions like that because of a marital relationship with his daughter. and i don't like the idea of other countries saying that's just like here. >> ned, we've had this conversation since the beginning of donald trump's candidacy. what -- could something go wrong? could all this bashing of the press lead to somebody getting hurt? i don't know that we could have

predicted one of the cases we'd be talking about in this climate around the press would be a "washington post" columnist, someone very well known to some of the most prominent writers on foreign policy. tom freeman, some of the most prominent anchors here in this country and around the world. do you see a connection in terms of the tone he's set and the connective tissue that some of the world's most brutal autocrats might feel with him? >> absolutely. look, as americans, we've long been proud since the days of the cold war that our president, the american president, is known as the leader of the free world. he's a source of inspiration and object of emulation the world over. and donald trump has continued to play that role, but unfortunately, he's done that for, as you said, some of the most despotic rulers the world over. like vladimir putin, sisi of egypt, duterte of the philippines, urbon of hungary. the chinese communist party, the ministry of foreign affairs in

russia. uti using this term "fake news," appropriating it. he has imported some of these practices he's seen from despots. they've appropriated his own language and his mannerisms. and in a sense he has given them license. he has given them license to not only use this language by what he has said but it's also what he doesn't say. every time a reuters journalist is arrested in myanmar, for example, or a photographer is taken prisoner in bangladesh and the united states says nothing, that also gives them license to do as they see fit with the free press. >> rick stengel, i'm struck by the fact that george w. bush and president obama's final words before donald trump's inauguration were almost a plea to the president, the incoming president to recognize the importantance and to value the free press and principle of a free press, even if he doesn't like what they wrote.

>> i find something even more sinister in his attacks on the press than a lot of folks do. there's one industry that the constitution protects, and it's not the car industry or coal industry or anything like that. it's the press. and why is that? because the framers thought if democracy was under threat, if the house and the white house and it was led by an autocrat, there would be one institution that could stand up to that authoritarian person in government and that was the press. the fourth estate. that's why it was protected. a democracy can never be ignorant and free. this attack on the press by trump, the sinisterness of it is the fact he wants to have the one branch of our civil society that could speak truth to power, not have power to speak truth to him. >> michael? >> how do you, though, i think you hit it so well, but here's the question for the press and everyone else is, so what? how do you change -- >> what do we do? >> what do you do? the president gets up and says the press is this, that or the

other thing. he puts his arm and embraced the autocratic lifestyle, if you will. he longs for, you know, the power to be president. and admires the way others exercise it. >> and it empowers those bad guys. >> he looks and goes, ah, that works. so who stops him? where does the water meet its edge here because the fact of the matter is he's in a room with 10,000, 15,000 people screaming lock her up. he's getting that reinforcement, and then he looks at a panel like this and, see, this is what i'm talking about, right? that's the craziness right there. how do you then change this narrative around? that's the test of this democracy. >> we keep forgetting the ask. it's the oil. we want their oil. and we want them to keep the prices down. and we want them to help us take on iran. and we want to go along with israel on that. we're always asking.

okay, we're doing this for you. it's like the mob -- we'll knock off castro but leave us alone in the attorney general's office. what's the deal here? why are you giving us trouble? aren't we helping you in all this stuff? moving the embassy, going along with all that. we're going to help you knock off iran. we'll put together an israeli/arab alliance and you're giving us trouble about some reporter? what's the deal here? >> the answer to your question is the press needs to continue doing what it's doing. harp on it over and over and over. there's just no other way to do it. and people have to recognize and acknowledge it. and i think one of the things the press has to do is be more transparent about how we do what we do. one thing i've been so surprised by since this administration and having been a journalist all my life is how little understanding people have for how journalism works. part of that is not just donald trump it's us not explaining how it works. we need to be more transparent about how we do interviews, what's on the record and what's not on the record.

>> it's deredefining that trust relationship. >> and the one person who watches everything we say and do is the president himself. so he thinks we still matter. ned price, thank you. you've been amazing the last couple of days. with democrats discouraged after the kavanaugh nomination, michelle obama's message of hope and empowerment was particularly well received today. we'll bring it to you.

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and we now offer the industry's first true zero expense ratio index funds directly to investors. plus, we have fidelity mutual funds with zero minimum investment. how many other firms give you this much value? absolutely zero. ♪ why don't they do what they say ♪ ♪ say what they mean ♪ baby, one thing leads to another ♪ 26 days to go until the midterms and an eternity considering how fast things can change. it wasn't that long ago a wave of enthusiasm propelled democrats to special election victories in pennsylvania. but polling experts wonder if the kavanaugh ordeal dampens some of that excitement. the extent to which there will be a blue wave is somewhat in question. enter michelle obama. they greeted her like a rock star today walking onto the "today" show plaza today.

she's still got it. answer to her question, about her old motto, when they go low, we go high still stands. >> absolutely. fear is not a -- it's not a proper motivator. hope wins out. and if you think about how you want your kids to be raised, how you want them to think about life and their opportunities, do you want them afraid of their neighbors? do you want them angry? do you want them vengeful? i have to think about that as a mother. as someone who is a role model to young girls, we want them to grow up with promise and hope. and we can't model something different if we want them to be better than that. >> i used to advise campaigns, here's some free advice to any campaign. talk to the mothers. i'm a mother. my son can't watch television. kimberly atkins, why are democrats overthinking this. we have a president who is not even pg-13. if he was a movie he'd be nr-17

for -- we have a president who is not fit for daytime television. we had a first lady there who was respected and admired across the divide telling democrats exactly how to win in 28 days. >> yeah, well, there's a lot of democrats. a growing number of democrats who disagree with that. when eric holder said, you know, when they go high, we kick them, that was not the first time i'd heard that very phrase. >> that's like a mom red flag. we don't tell our kids to kick. >> but the idea is a lot of democrats don't want a candidate who is foul-mouthed and who advocates for violence the way we saw president trump do in the 2016 race. but what they see is democrats that as much as they're talking about policy and principles, they are getting beat by people who are talking a lot tougher. who are really going and engaging in a political street fight in the way that president trump does. and they want democrats to project a tougher image.

they want a candidate in 2020 in particular who can go toe-to-toe with donald trump in a debate, in the national stage, on twitter and not let him get the upper hand the way we saw him get the upper hand on, what was it, 18 other primary opponents in the gop primary in 2016. >> 16, plus me and michael steele. you can be strong. you can be a badass and not be dirty. this seems to be the trap democrats have themselves in. what michelle obama is saying is be tough and strong but stay on the high road. don't disparage minorities or women. don't be a misogynist and racist. just win. >> and i think that was the trap that those 18 republicans, 16 actually, fell into in trying to go toe-to-toe with trump. we saw it with marco rubio. >> hand size and -- >> when he got into that murky

water with trump, trump was like, yeah, baby, this is where i live. come on in. this is where i live now. >> come on in. the water is warm. >> or slimy. >> everybody goes diving plays. so because that's not how we do our politics. it goes back to what you were saying before about journalists. we have got to rise -- she's right to -- the first lady is right to -- we have to rise above the conversation that trump wants to have. and you don't have to be in the gutter to show what it is to be in the gutter and how that is not american. that is not who we are. not how we raise our kids. that's not how donald trump presumably raises his son. but yet and still that's how he projects out to the rest of the country, and you have these yahoos, folks standing behind him screaming yeah, yeah, yeah, but go home and what do you say to your kid then, how do you converse with your child about your behavior as an adult in that community. that's what the first lady was talking about. >> i think your point, though, is this -- you guys are

opposites. >> it was meant as a compliment, not a criticism. once upon a time, you're in a debate and your opponent attacks you, rise above it, ignore it, write down your notes like you're not hearing it. you can't do that anymore. don't wrestle with the pig because the pig is in the mud and he likes it, you have to say, no, that's wrong, here are the facts, and that's not going low -- >> let me push back. if you have the smarter -- if you said, i know john kennedy, you're no john kennedy, there is still an opportunity to outsmart or outfox a pig. >> in the moment, that's wrong, let me tell you the truth. >> that's the advantage that trump has because there are no

consequences and the consequences not necessarily something bad happening, it is calling out the crazy. it is calling out the lie of the moment. it is saying right there, if any of those other -- let me tell you, that jeb bush moment on that stage, if any of the republican on that stage backed jeb bush up when he went after trump and called him out, it would be a very different -- >> i told jeb bush i thought he should have punched him in the face. even if you lost, he insulted your wife, he came down the escalator and called -- he said what do you think i should have done, i said i think you should have punched him in the face and then got out of the race. >> he's bringing him down. all he did was call dad an assassin, and -- but i need his help. a lot of it is, like, i keep thinking of a guy driving, woman or man, bought a new car, it is all clean, smells nice, new car smell, you get this brand-new car. and along comes this guy driving a -- it is beat up, rusty, it is

trump. want to play bumpers here, go at each other? he said, wait a minute, my car is brand-new and you're in this junker. of course you want to bang into each other. and they have a high -- jeb thinks well of himself. he doesn't want to be one of these trump people, doesn't want to get down in that mud with them. in the end, it is nikki haley, my new hero, she says, i don't get confused, stops the music right there. stops it in its tracks and says, this conversation will not continue on the level that you, a male, can accuse me of being a ditsy woman. you can't continue that conversation. that stops right now. i am not -- i don't get confused. >> that's fine for that moment. but where is -- >> fiorina put him back on his boots. she came out and said, every woman in america knew what you were saying. >> that, again, that's not going at trump. i'm talking about the direct in your face moment where it is eye to eye -- >> megyn kelly did it. >> yeah, well --

>> in the debates, moderating the debates. she listened to all the crap he had thrown at women -- >> she wasn't running for political office, she wasn't trying to convince people to stand with her. >> but it worked. >> for political leadership, whether it is a future of a nikki haley or the current leadership on the hill, whatever role you're in, what is that moment where you say enough is enough and you look the president in the eye and say, you, sir, are wrong and call out why he's wrong. >> everyone at home watching will cheer and jump for joy. what did michelle obama say that can be operationalized in the next 28 days for democrats. >> look, i didn't mean to say that the two things are mutually exclusive. i think if you look at everything, for example, that eric holder said, he said adhering to principle is extraordinarily important. but it is just about being tough. and bringing that fight. a presidential candidate can be a mom, but it doesn't have to serve the same role as a mom. you can stand up and channel the anger from the base in a way

that democrats are very frustrated that the potential candidates so far haven't been doing. i think that's the point that democrats are looking for, someone who can take the fight to president trump, he has to talk about principles and ideals and policy, but do it in a way that doesn't make them look like they're backing down in the face of a fight. >> and do it in a way your kids can watch, that would be novel these days, folks. with ev we have to sneak in our last break. let's take a look at some numbers:

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developing just this hour,

the death toll from hurricane michael climbed to five. michael hit the panhandle 25 hours ago and we're starting to see the pictures from the devastation. one of the hardest hit spots is mexico beach, where michael crashed ashore as a cat 4 storm. these new drone pictures capturing the aftermath across the town of about a thousand people. 20 people were rescued overnight. entire blocks of homes near the beach were washed away. a day later, the town remained difficult to reach by land with roads covered by fallen trees, power lines and other debris. turning to our table now, chris matthews, we're not going to let you go without asking about your special. >> i worked for him as a speechwriter, and i was a servant of his. i worked for him. you work for the guy. you go back x many years later and chat with him, he was amazingly honest. a moment that will grab anybody who has a heart, camp david, they're at a gettysburg battlefield and begin is feeling out of it because all the other

people are military guys. he's in a stern gang, and out of nowhere he stands up at the place where lincoln gave his gaetti get gettysburg address and recited the whole thing. >> it is like a confession. i saw that in your interview with him. >> thank you. you talk about making mistakes, like hail to the chief. that was a dumb thing to do. >> on sunday night. >> sunday night at 9:00. very proud of what -- the rep t rapport i set with him and he was so honest. this was a prime show. primetime show at 4:00 in the afternoon. it is dynamite. dynamite. >> way too kind. my thanks. don't miss him on hard ball and sunday night at 9:00. that does it for our hour. >> hi, nicole, hi, chris.