i know all these things. i'm not saying i trust everybody in the white house, i'm not a baby. i'm president and you're not. >> what's the baby thing? >> he wants to make it clear to you that he's not a baby. >> but why does he always do that? >> that and he's the president. he wanted to make those things clear. >> good morning. >> baby president. >> and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, october 15th. with us we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc and co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus" john heilemann, president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haass. author zaleb salbi is with us and contributing editor weekly standard john pedestrian ris as well. >> what did you think about the president last night? >> seemed like a baby. >> big baby. and really, really ill equipped and unfit to lead this country. >> more than one or two references about the emperor not

having any clothes, john heilemann, parading around. >> but he doesn't realize it. >> like a naked baby. >> a clothed free baby. that's how babies are, they generally don't have much in the way of clothing. >> so what did you think of the president? what was your take? >> i thought that, you know, there was nothing in it that would not enrage all the people who were already enraged by him. you know, just being a journalist -- >> talk about the president's level of preparation for the interview. how equipped does the president appear to be 19, 20 months in to be president of the united states, just objectively based on his answers? >> there was no way in which -- >> let's not grade him on a scale. we're just going to do this straight up. they are not going to score it like they do at harvard where everybody gets an a. this is university of alabama graduation. you don't do well, you are back in piggly wiggly.

how did he do? >> i thought on the question of how well he seemed to understand the world in its of its dimensions and complexity i would grade him in the d range. >> the d range. >> i think that right now when you are looking at the question that -- the burning question for a lot of people as a journalist is how is the president going to react on the question of the saudis, and that is where this i'm not a baby thing came up. it's like i'm a man of the world. of course i understand that bad things happen, but what he did not demonstrate in that moment, i think that's the thing that people are looking to right now, is for moral leadership on that question and that was utterly an isn't in terms of how he discussed that issue. there are a variety of things to be concerned about in the interview and a lot of things that you could criticize him for, but that's the burning issue of our moment and on that issue i thought he demonstrated neither an enormous capacity with the facts but also not the proper level of outrage over the thing that seems to have happened. >> john podhoretz.

>> it was trump coming fully out and saying i am running -- i wouldn't say immoral, but beyond moral presidency. >> valueless. >> he said i don't want to screw up arms sales, he said, look, don't ask me to criticize putin because i rely on him to do a lot of things for me. we don't know what that means, by the way. he said, you know, he was upset about jamal khashoggi, but, you know, he didn't want to upset the apple cart. he wasn't going to go deep into climate change because it would affect jobs. this is trump's line as president and will be his line in 2020, which is let's cut all the crap. i'm here to help americans do american jobs, i'm not going to get the united states involved in things because i'm upset

morally, i've got a different hand to play. and this is going to be the crux of the argument that he is going to make for reelection. assuming that the country doesn't fall into chaos at home or catastrophe at home, he is going to say, i'm here to deliver for you, so don't throw all your moralism at me. i'm a new york real estate guy, all these people in washington are savages, i'm a savage back to them and this is who we are right now. >> richard haass, we've heard business owners, we've heard ceos, we've heard others talk about how over the past decade or so it's been difficult to compete with china because there were always -- well, with the united states -- values attached. yes, we will do business with you, but you can't produce twice the pollution that the united states and the eu produce. you can't just go around and

murder journalists on one day and expect us to come to your conferences the next day. whereas, china has been operating in a valueless zone. it appears now that we are in the realm of what we criticize china for being just two years ago. >> for a long time one of the big debates about foreign policy was american exceptionalism, that somehow we were different, we were going to be the shining city on a hill, we were going to stand for different things, we were going to do things differently. we didn't always live up to it, but that was the idea. so much for that. we have basically jettisoned american exceptionalism, we are now just like everybody else, we have princelings working in positions of power, commercialism is the guiding light, the lone star shall we say of american foreign policy. john is right, it's a moral to the point of being immoral, but now we are -- we've joined the pack and instead of them coming to us, which was the whole idea of american foreign policy, we were going to raise everybody's

game to ours, guess what, joe, we have now lowered our game to theirs. >> are we respected abroad? >> we lost credibility abroad. everybody used to watch what's their reaction, what are they going to say, they cared about america's reaction and no one cares anymore. i was just in turkey and no one cares about america's opinion anymore at the moment. we did lose moral ground. >> that's a big change. here is the president in the interview about the trustworthiness of the north korean dictator. >> do you trust him? >> i do trust him, yeah, i trust him. that doesn't mean i can't be proven wrong. >> why would you trust him? >> first of all, why i didn't trust him i wouldn't say that to him. i do trust him, but we will see what happens. >> is it true that they haven't gotten rid of a single weapon and they may actually be building more missiles with nuclear -- >> i will tell you that they're closing up sites. >> but is what i said true, that they haven't -- >> nobody really knows. people are saying that. >> yeah. >> i've actually said that

and -- >> that they're still building missiles, more missiles? >> we don't really know. we really don't know. but i assume -- >> do you suspect that? >> let's say the answer is yes. >> okay. >> okay. >> and then we fell in love. okay? no, really. he wrote me beautiful letters. and they're great letters. we fell in love. >> i want to read you his resumé, okay? >> go ahead. >> he presides over a cruel kingdom of repression, ghoul lags, starvation, reports that he had his half-brother assassinated, slave labor, public executions. this is a guy you love. >> i know all of these things. i'm not a baby. >> why do you love that guy? >> look, look, i like -- i get along with him, okay? >> but you said i love him. >> okay. that's just a figure of speech. >> no, it's like an embrace. >> well, let it be an embrace. let it be whatever it is -- >> but he is a bad guy. >> look, let it be whatever it

is. i get along with him really well, i have a good energy with him, i have a good chemistry with him. look at the horrible threats that were made. no more threats. no more threats. >> what a baby. not a baby. >> what a baby. >> willie geist and i love to play a game and if you answer it correctly a duck would come down. when barack obama was president we would always say what if a republican president said what he just said. let's change the game. what if barack obama had said what donald trump just said about kim jong-un. literally locusts would descend from the heavens in washington, d.c. and eat the flesh from the bones of all the republican opponents. it would be madness. absolute madness. how could conservatives not be shocked and offended by what he's doing after all we heard and a lot of what i said over

eight years about barack obama cow toug to iran. >> american exceptionalism is gone. you remember obama came under enormous criticism when he was asked about american exceptionalism and he said, well, america is compensation nl, greece thinks grease is exceptional -- >> see -- >> shear is my point is that obama came at american exceptionalism from the left. he was like this has mired us in war and caused chaos without our meaning to cause chaos and i want to pull back from this. trump is saying i'm going to do -- i will say whatever i have to say and i will do whatever i have to do as long as the results are fine. so conservatives went crazy about obama because he seemed to be talking down the united states and trump is saying, i live in a different world, i

live in a world of results and so if i bring you the results, yell at me all you like from your, you know -- from your hyde park corner -- >> ivory tower. >> -- ivory tower. i'm a new york real estate guy. i'm not a baby. >> you are all babies with the human rights and the -- you are all babies. >> human rights, environmental standards, all of those ronald reagan quotes. >> that is where he has transformed the republican party because that veneer, the veneer -- >> of course. >> you know, even though people default to it like lindsey graham last week is saying we're going to cut off arm sales to saudi arabia, we are not going to let this happen, what happened to khashoggi is a major international crisis and trump has reflected that a little bit but you know he doesn't mean it. >> they have sold out -- episcopal have sold out on values at home, the very things that they were so shocked and stunned and deeply saddened by

with bill clinton, they are now completely passing off as nobody's business, you can look at franklin graham, and other evangelical leaders, who have, you know, sold their souls for this guy politically on foreign policy issues, the ideas of ronald reagan out the window. a city shining brightly on the hill for all to see, not on your life. trump says, just give me money. >> let's take him by his own merits. john is pointing out trump said just judge me by the results. let's look at the results in north korea. what are the results? >> a lot more nukes. >> the answer is they continue to build -- remember pat moynihan's statement that we're defining deviancy down? we're now defining diplomatic success down. north korea will close this site, do that, but there is zero chance their denuclearizing and we have a problem. the president of the united states is now so invested in the apparent success of what is going on with these korean negotiations, does anyone here

seriously think he's going to call the north yooens on it and is going to give them a test they may fail? that's the danger right now. we have defined success so far down that this will continue, but, guess what, we're never going to get to where we want to get. >> it's so much worse, though, than just saying america is not the exceptional nation anymore. it's saying america is a substandard nation. you don't have to be the -- preside over the shining city on a hill to not wrap your arms around unapologetically the modern day paul pot. the community of nations the average -- the b plus nations think that they have to project enough moral standard to not -- again, unapologetically say, well, you know, i love the guy. i love paul pot. yes, he is a genocidel dictator, but, you know -- >> even he says -- >> edie amin sent me nice

letters, beautiful letters. we are in love. >> he is not even claiming the results because when lesley asks them have they shut down the nuclear program he says probably not. they are no longer doing missile test that is we can see, but when he is asked -- so what are the results, mr. president? well, with he really don't know. i don't know. he could still have a nuclear program. >> all he is saying is he's being nice to me. >> right. >> this is personal, i don't really -- trump is saying i don't care about america, i don't care about the nukes, he's being nice to me. like putin, he's showing respect toward me. >> so there are two dangerous things in here to watch out for. first, there are still the people of north korea that are still being oppressed, still in prison, still starved, all of these. when a president of the united states says i love the man he has just gave him a boost of power, vitamin c basically in his power and oppression. if we care about the north korean people we have to watch our words and dang badge.

second, having grown up and known a lot of dictators unfortunately in my life, this is -- we have to watch when president trump is making it all about him, it's a one-man rule and that's very dangerous. i love this man, thus we have a good relationship. i don't like this man, we don't have good relationship. it's a very personal diplomacy, it's not about systems and checks and balance and that is a very, very dangerous thing to watch out for. >> that is for sure. >> this, i think, is a key temptation that presidents fall for -- have fallen for throughout the last 100 years, which is it's so ease yeah to deal with a dictator. you go to a dictator and you say, i need x. he is like you have x. you go to a democratic country it's like i've got this constituency, i've got dairy farmer, rice farmers, i can't just lower tariffs. >> i have to talk to my party in bavaria. >> i may lose the next election. every president, doesn't matter what president or what ideology,

at some point loves to deal with the saudis because you go to the saudis and you say, i need this favor over here and they're like, done. don't worry about it. so you wonder why it is -- why do we support this incredibly oppressive regime over time, it's because they are a reliable ally in the sense that when you ask them to do something they snap their fingers and can do it. every time you do it erodes your credibility as a spokesman for the good and true and beautiful. trump is the first president to say i don't tear about the good and the true and the beautiful. do you know what, that's all garbage. let's live in the real world. you know, europe is not our friend. what's an allies, as he said last night -- >> european ally. let's listen to that. >> bizarrely european union was framed bizarrely in order to screw us in trade deals. that's an insane opinion. we created the idea of the european union. dwight eisenhower created the idea of the european union to

stabilize the most unstable place on earth. >> you bring up what's an ally. here is the president last night on "60 minutes." >> you have also slapped some tariffs on our allies. >> what's an ally? we have wonderful relationships with a lot of people, but nobody treats us much more than the european union. the european union was formed in order to take advantage of us on trade. >> are you willing to disrupt the western alliance that's been going for 70 years, it's kept the peace for 70 years -- >> you don't know that. >> i don't know what? >> you don't know that. >> is it true general mattis said to you the reason for nato and the reason for all these alliances is to prevent world war iii? >> no, it's not true. frankly i like general mattis, i think i know more about it than he does and i know more about it from the standpoint of fairness, that i can tell you. >> i'm going to try one more time. okay. >> you don't have to try again.

>> well, answer my question. >> the answer is this, i will always be there with nato, but they have to pay their way. >> you know, richard -- >> you don't want mattis to leave. boy, oh, boy, do you not want him to leave. >> donald trump if anybody else said what donald trump just said there they would be castigated as a fool. this is, of course, this is the danger when people like donald trump and jared kushner run around and say they don't need to read history. if you read history all you see is people that have been failing through the years. of course, both of them coming into office not realizing the united states was the most powerful, the wealthiest and most respected country on the planet. for donald trump to say that you don't know whether the e.u. or nato has had an extraordinary impact on the united states and

has by far allowed us to be the most powerful country on the planet and i would suggest over the last 50 years most powerful country since the roman empire just shows a complete lack of understanding and a complete ignorance of history. a willful, willing ignorance of history and this guy is president of the united states. you don't know? that's like saying you don't know that the red sox beat the astros last night. yes. yes, we do. because we stayed up and watched it. >> he did not -- this is a guy -- this is a guy who just didn't read books growing up. he doesn't know the basics of american history. >> i will resist responding to your baseball comment. on the history, this is serious. the e.u. was created to make sure that france and germany were so knitted together that war, which had had twice ravaged europe, could not happen again. the two great creative things of

western state craft of the 20th century were what? nato and the european -- >> i know donald trump doesn't know this, but post 1945, between '45 and '47 we didn't know what was going to happen with western europe. there was a refugee crisis that was absolutely ravaging the continent and the communists were trying to take control of countries like italy, trying to get influence in france, trying to get influence -- you know, all across western europe. >> absolutely. and the first -- what was the first great test of the cold war? berlin. and what the soviets were trying to do there. this was the cockpit of history and what we did together with the europeans will -- future generations will look upon and say this was really -- this was extraordinary diplomacy, this was creative. dean ach a son's book his memoire was present at the creation, that was not an exaggeration. very little in history is automatic and what these people did, truman and the others was

quite extraordinary. you have somebody inheriting this and throwing it away casually saying what's an ally? or the e.u. is simply there to rip us off. he's not putting anything in its place. he will leave the world a dramatically changed and worsened place. u.s. influence will be down, stability will be down because we're taking the inheritance, we're throwing it away and we're not subs teegt for it. >> can you imagine putting a blue book in front of the president and asking him to write a blue book essay about the creation of nato. tell us what you know about the creation of nato and what it's impact has been. ask him who dean at chin son is. i honestly don't think the man could write three sentences -- >> i would just take -- tell us what happened after world war ii. tell us what happened from 1945 to 1959. >> just what you know. >> what is the truman doctrine? what is contained in it. >> anything. >> talk about the marshall plan and how it impacted the world. these are basic questions

that -- >> i have a question. >> i think it's worse than that. i will say this i think in his head when he says something like you don't know that, that those institutions kept the piece. >> more than he -- >> he basically is playing knute gingrich alternative history in his mind. he's thinking if i had been president for the last 50 years we wouldn't have needed those institutions, i could have kept the peace on my own. you have some accepted version of how history unfolded, there is an alternative version, the alternative version is my version, my version is if i were a strong man president in that period i could have personally kept the peace by making deals with hitler. >> what we did pre 1945 is along with our allies we defeated lit letterism. what we did from '45 to '89 is we defeated stalinism, we defeated communism and we built an extraordinary economy and the country that we were competing against, people like dr.

brzezinski spent their entire adult life fighting collapsed and crumpled. we won. what alternative history does donald trump want other than having vladimir putin -- >> here is the question, a lot of europeans when you talk to them they say america does pay a majority of nato's budget, even nato actually acknowledged that. so the problem for me is that some of the things he's pointing out america is overpaying, it is true, we are subsidizing some of the military spending of europe, but his style is outrageous, his style is obnoxious, he is underestimating the meaning of diplomacy. how do we -- it's a question for all of you is how do you reconcile between some of the truth he is talking about, it's not all wrong, and some of the fact that we cannot afford to jeopardize our allies. these are important allies. we need them as much as they

need us. >> we will answer that next block. we will go to you, john, because it's so important to talk not only about that, but let's take china as well. china has been taking advantage of the united states for years, but the president is putting dynamite under the bridge and blowing it up. he may have some instincts that may be correct, but to say he's overshooting the mark is an understatement. do you know what he's acting like? >> what? and then you can stop talking. >> a baby. >> he's acting like a baby. he's acting -- >> reminds you of the campaign. please stop that. thank you. >> when you asked him if he reads and there was this dead silence across the table at his desk at trump tower. >> babies don't read. >> babies can't read. they never read. >> they never read, never see them with a book. >> donald trump let it be known in that meeting that he doesn't read. >> still ahead on "morning joe," john podhoretz mentioned it at the top. >> president trump says he won't call out the russian's crimes because, quote, i rely on them.

really? we will dig into that. plus there is -- >> what tape? >> the t tape or is it p, i can't remember. >> the outcoming midterms as the new polls break down the fight for capitol hill just 22 days aw away. let's first go to bill karins with a look at the forecast. >> numbers didn't get any better on michael over the weekend, still 250,000 people without power and the number of fatalities have gone up to 19. the devastation, i mean, you've seen the pictures over the last couple days, all the pictures that you're seeing it's almost like there was a 20 to 30 mile wide tornado that came on shore and traveled almost 200 miles inland through florida into southern portions of georgia. it was an incredible intense compact hurricane when you see damage like this and the stories of people that actually survived is pretty incredible. we don't have anything tragic like this this week we will deal with, no bad severe weather, no tornadoes and we won't be doing

anything in the tropics. we're dealing with a flood potential in texas, a lot of rain this morning from little rock to nashville, on and off rain showers from d.c. to philadelphia, boston and also new york so carry your umbrella. but the at risk area is in texas. 8 million people have gotten soaked this weekend, another two to three inches over the next couple days in texas. the week ahead forecast we are watching the rain today, up through the northeast down through texas, middle of the week looks pretty quiet, we're going to see a really nice end to the week in areas of the northeast, but then again, we have to go back to texas. looks like we are in store for another rainy beginning to your upcoming weekend. we have had one after another. washington, d.c. is one of those spots, carry your umbrella, i don't expect a lot of travel delays just on and off light rain today and temperatures in the 60s. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. minimums and fees. they seem to be the very foundation of your typical bank. capital one is anything but typical. that's why we designed capital one cafes.

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>> well, i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe, so, you know. >> do you agree that vladimir putin is involved in assassinations, in poisonings? >> probably he is, yeah, probably. >> probably? >> probably, but i rely on them. it's not in our country. >> and we followed up with that question and said, wait, i don't understand. he kills journalists. he said, we do, too. >> yeah. that was a revelation for the viewers. in the words of president trump it's not -- it's not in our country over the past few months, russians apparently poisoned people in the uk and saudi arabia, may have murdered a journalist. saudi arabia is pushing back amid growing international pressure over the disappearance and alleged death of "washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi. the wing dom's government said yesterday that it would not back down to threats, warning it

would retaliate to any possible sanctions by flexing its economic power. that comes amid president trump's new interview in which he vowed severe punishment if it is found that saudi leaders had khashoggi killed. >> was he murdered by the saudis and did the prince give the order to kill him? >> nobody knows yet, but we will probably be able to find out. it's being investigated. it's being looked at very, very strongly. we would be very upset and angry if that were the case. as of this moment they deny it and they deny it vehemently. could it be them? yes. >> jared, your son-in-law, got on the phone and asked the prince did he -- did he deny it? >> they deny it. they deny it every way you can imagine. in the not too distant future i think we will know the answer. >> what are your options? let's say they did. what are your options? would you consider imposing

sanctions as a bipartisan group of senators have proposed? >> it depends on what the sanction is. >> tell everybody what's at stake here. you know, this is -- >> well, there is a lot at stake. there is at l there is a lot at stake and maybe especially so because this man is a reporter. you will be surprised to hear me say that, there's something really terrible and disgusting about that if that were the case, so we're going to have to see. we're going to get to the bottom of it and there will be severe punishment. >> our moral credibility, our ability to call putin a murderer because he is, our ability to call assad a murderer because he is, our ability to confront maduro in venezuela or any other human rights atrocities like what we see in china all of that is undermined and compromised if we somehow decide that because an ally who is important did that we're not going to call it out. >> marco rubio rightly saying the president should call it out more strongly. i want to get to the underlying crime that appears to have

occurred and the arrogance and just down right stupidity that it would require of any world leader to murder a journalist going into a consulate. this is the question that is bouncing across washington and the world. how could mbs think that he could kill a "washington post" columnist and actually have his country live to tell about it economically? how arrogant, how stupid, how petulant, how intemperate would one have to be to think in 2018 you could get away with that? >> well, the answer is if you can start a war in yemen, you can essentially do an economic and political war against qatar, if you can go outside the

judicial system, put people in ritz carlton and essentially shake them down for money and torture some of them, essentially if you can act with impunity you're surrounded by a small group of yes men inside saudi arabia and what we've seen in saudi arabia is really quite interesting. what now an mates the country is much more nationalism and a cult of personality than religion. that's part of the switch inside the kingdom. so that's what we're seeing here. he also feels empowered. this white house in particular has -- it was the first trip the president made, the special relationship between jared kushner and the crown prince, but they feel empowered and they feel essentially they have a blank check. >> so they can kill a "washington post" columnist and get away with it. >> we've seen most of the sunni arab world toe the saudi's line. my hunch is either they brazen it out if there's not proof or

if there's proof they will start say it was a rogue operation, the crown prince had nothing to do with it and you will find somebody who you can scapegoat. the stories are coming out that he was a sympathizer with the muslim brotherhood. i don't think they're going to back down, joe. one way or another they are going to see this through and we are going to have to decide what it is we're prepared to take and what it is we want to push back on. >> but we are not babies, right? that's part of we are not a baby. okay, come on, is mohammad bin salman a tough guy? yeah, he is a tough guy. the interesting thing here is that trump made a bet and i don't think that it's -- it would be wrong to say the bet was foolish. he made a bet that this 32-year-old guy might be a visionary on the model of ataturk at the outset or first two decades of the 20th century, that he was going to take this country that was rich but backward and he was going to pull it into the 21st century

and get it into the community of nations before the oil power runs out in 20 or 30 years. he was willing to go into alliance with israel and change the balance of power in the middle east and you go with him. then he does this pre modern thing, right, he lures somebody into the embassy, the guy gets killed, he may have been dismembered, it's -- you know, it's henry ii, it's not a 21st century leader. on the other hand you would say it's the middle east, who knows what they do, these people. >> john, the thing you just described, the bet you just described is the bet that all kinds of people in the west made about mbs. that's the bet that the calculation people made. they're willing to overlook all the stuff that richard said, all the stuff mbs has said, they say he had a modernizer on certain fronts, he will let women drive or go to a movie or something. that's the bet a lot of

westerners made and they are all feeling morally compromised now and looking at each other going how do we allow this guy to behave not just with impunity but with our hands on his back telling him what a great guy he was. that's not the bet trump made. the bet that trump made was i made a lot of money in saudi arabia over the course of my career and i'm going to make a lot of money further going forward and my son-in-law will make a lot of money. trump did not have a grand vision about modernizing the middle east and make a cal could you lags about how mbs might be a modern needser. many people made that bet. >> it's about money. it's always about money. >> it's always been about money. i mean, never in u.s. history have we put a limit to saudi arabia. this is the first time actually somebody is saying there is a limit. western leaders, international leaders are saying there is a limit. never. it's always been about money. when was the last time we actually set a limit to saudi arabia? >> it's really been about the president's personal fortune

which is what this is about as opposed to the country acting in purely economic interest. this is a situation where the president himself -- >> i want to push back in this sense, which is that his argument to the american people on "60 minutes" was it's about money. what are we going to do? we just got $130 billion in arms sales that could have gone to china, we got it, i don't want to upset the apple cart. but when i think you do the administration oddly enough an injustice because i think that whatever reason -- whatever reason he might have had to tilt toward the saudis because he has made money in the middle east or made money in saudi arabia, there were voices in the administration that said, this is a bet we need to take. we can reorient middle eastern policy away from the islamists, away from iran and push a new alliance and that is what happened. >> and it's not a white and black issue for me. this is "game of thrones" in the

middle east at play really and the final season has not played yet. he is a reformer, mbs, a reformer that is -- one man leader. that is the biggest criticism of him, one single man's leadership, either i agree or i don't agree. so that is true. he is shifting the saudi population, one-third of saudi population is wahabis. this is very scary. you do not want saudi arabia to go in the hands of the wahabis. this is very, very scary. this is a fragile relationship we have to play in here. he is spreading fear and he has put in prison anybody who criticized him, journalists, women's rights activists, poet, artist, businesspeople, so there is precedence over that. there is no track record that he has ever ordered a killing. we have to put that in perspective. his track record in the region that leaders kill their opponents, this is like -- but in his case this is our first thing. there's also turkey at play in

here and they also have prosecuted all their journalists and they have killed all their free media. there is also qatar who mbs is saying this is fake news and this is qatar conspiracy theory to they can undermine me in the world. this is all at play. >> i was just going to say thank god we have turkey, the defenders of journalists helping. of course -- >> that's who he hung out with. >> in 2017 of course it was turkey who prosecuted -- and persecuted and jailed more journalists than any other country in the world. >> also look at the saudi reaction to that -- to this. in addition to what allegedly went down at the consulate, the idea that the saudi government put out a statement basically saying if you do anything against us we are going to respond in all sorts of ways. if i may quote the president yesterday in his interview with lesley stahl, what's an ally? saudi arabia now is going to

threaten all of our interests in the region because we're going to push back against it? it just says to me how tenuous this relationship is. what have we gotten for it? the idea they were going to deliver the palestinians, we have the schism with qatar and so forth. i don't see where we've gotten something for it. this tells us if the united states does america first, now we're seeing saudi first and we're seeing turkey first. this is a world where relationships between nothing and we are going to -- we are going to reap what we sowed. >> we have to break it down again. it's not about america first, saudis first, it's about the trump organization first. you wonder, again, why is he praising a dictator in the philippines? because of his property in manila. you ask, why is he praising russia? because his sons say we get most of our money from russia and have for years. you ask, why is he praising saudi arabia? he bragged during the campaign about making tens of millions of

dollars on saudi arabia. we've said it from the beginning, we will say it now, we are all looking at this as if donald trump really cares about what american foreign policy is in three years. >> and values. >> donald trump cares about what he has always cared about, it's about his money, not the -- not saudi planes -- not american planes they are going to buy, not trade, not nothing. it is about how much money the trump family and the trump organization can make. if you just look at his foreign policy through that prism, everything makes sense. >> it does. >> we are all a much poorer nation today because there weren't trump properties in london, berlin and paris. i'm completely serious. if his three biggest properties were in london, berlin and paris, then he would be the biggest champion of the e.u. and nato that we've ever had in the white house. >> that is for sure. still ahead, new polling shows democrats ahead by 11

points in the race for control of the house. steve kornacki joins us next with those new numbers. "morning joe" is coming right back. back. here we go.

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oh, look. the elections -- what are you doing there? >> just reading. >> the elections are three weeks from tomorrow. can you believe that? >> three weeks. >> it's kind of exciting. >> could be. >> the "washington post" abc news poll gives democrats the edge in the race for congress, 53% to 42% for republicans, and voter enthusiasm has increased among all voters to 77%, up 12 points from october of 2014. democrats have seen the biggest gain, up 18 points to 81%, while 79% of republicans are enthusiastic about voting, up 4 points. so are 72% of independents, a 13-point increase from the last midterms. joining us now national political correspondent for nbc news and msnbc, steve kornacki. his new book is "the red and the

blue: the 1990s and the birth of political tribalism." how do things look, steve? >> that's not the first generic poll we have seen in the last week to ten days showing that a pretty wide gap between the two parties right there. the enthusiasm is through the roof. the one thing those generic polls don't catch that's interesting to me when you look at the house is potential regional and district-based disparities. what i mean by that is we've got two fresh polls, "the new york times" has been doing all these key house races around the country and they've been picking up on something potentially interesting. number one is this is -- the suburbs of philadelphia, pennsylvania's first district, and this is where democrats are counting on energy to carry them, the suburban voters, that sort of thing. this is a republican held district that hillary clinton won and their polling over the weekend shows the democratic challenger pulling ahead. i thought we had that one. >> sometimes they just leave you hanging until you actually tell them that they leave you

hanging. >> so there it is. this is interesting because republicans felt over the summer they had polls shows fitzpatrick their incumbent leading, they thought democrats had made a big mistake nominating this candidate, didn't even live in the district until recently, but it may be that that suburban energy to go after trump is so strong it overrides everything here. >> the one thing i've been in thing in the upshot polling, during kavanaugh and post kavanaugh every race was breaking republican. i think we are getting -- we've all said that that post kavanaugh high that republicans felt, that will subside. how much? who knows? but in the suburbs of philadelphia this is a great test case, a seven-point lead for the democrat in the philadelphia suburbs where trump did very well, that's significant. >> and i could say that also suggests to me another possibility, just a possibility that this is also a kavanaugh effect but it's a kavanaugh effect going the other way. that this is the energy against trump and against the republicans because the flip side, as i said, we're seeing

something interesting a potential divergence. another new poll is in the iron range of minnesota, the eighth district of minnesota, diuluth and the iron range, the democrats not running again. one of those districts that went obama, trump, held by a democrat. over the summer this was a dead even race. this has broken in a big way for the republicans. >> what's happened? >> kavanaugh effect. i wonder if you're seeing -- this is trump country. this is white working class. this is blew collar. trump demographics we're always talking about. we're seeing a big shift towards the republican just like in the suburbs of philadelphia and suburbs in kansas city and denver and dallas. >> authors democratic cities. >> that's a pick up for republicans. >> that's another seat that democrats will have to pick up if they want to take control of the house. are there any other seats like that, that are democratic seats that are breaking republican? >> there's a couple -- very

limited number of openings for republicans if they want to pick up democrats. there's another one in minnesota they can get. one in new hampshire they can get. four or five i think in the country that they might be able to get. the best case scenario for republicans that they can hope for is these suburbs, these clints held republican held seats in the suburbs may be gone. the best case for republicans there are tidal waves in these suburbs but that they don't translate into the nonclinton, nonsuburban districts. you get an isolated blue wave. >> that isolated blue wave, if it is in the suburbs is enough to put the democrats in control? >> here's your numbers. democrats need a net gain of 23. how many held republican clinton seats are there, there's 25. >> and redistricting in pennsylvania and other states. >> i'm out five days and looking at these house races. there's no question that the

kavanaugh effect, we had the high watermark of it. the question as you said, it's going to subside for republicans. i want has to because he's on the court. he's on the court now. there's a diminishing return for that argument. i sense in house races, that the house races are not nearly as affected some of the senate races. some senate races where it will be decisive. north dakota, you look even a place at tennessee where phil breseden who came out in favor of kavanaugh. last week there were a ton of those clinton districts that if democrats had any chance of taking the house they will take seven, eight, nine races in california. those are races that feel they are already gone, and certainly

it's the case for women in those suburban districts or if anything from kavanaugh to the extent that it matters, they are more fired up than they were before. >> as far as tennessee goes that's fascinating what you say. what that suggests is post-kavanaugh you had, of course, the republicans going to ma marsha blackburn. but the democratic party running away from a former democratic governor who is the most popular politician in the state. those are the sort of things that subside. as you get closer to the election you have democrats going well wait a second. i guess maybe we would prefer the guy who is not going to vote for everything donald trump wants. >> pennsylvania house race is very important because the republicans were hoping that scott wallace, the democrat in that race was somebody who could be targeted individually as being way too left wing for the district. he's very left wing. he's anti-israel. all sorts of stuff about him.

the national effect of the anti-trump movement is probably going to wash him into office. republicans need these races to be localized in order to prevent this blue wave from happening, and the polling is now suggesting that that's probably localized. >> can't happen in the age of trump. >> we were saying the same thing when while was talking. final word. >> scary. all i can think of from a woman's perspective we have to get ahead of the game and can't continue this decisive politics. we have to look how we engaging dialogue. otherwise this is a war and it will continue and it's detrimental to us. >> steve kornacki, thank you so much. great to have you. >> the book, everybody is carrying the book around. john meacham even called it insightful. >> wow. >> learned. >> thought-provoking.

>> for politics fans this book is like eating cotton candy. >> i love cotton candy. >> just edible from beginning to end. >> still ahead, barack obama had to release his birth certificate after donald trump's birther campaign. now elizabeth warren joins the club. we'll explain that. that's coming up on "morning joe".

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do you really think i would call russia to help me with an election. >> russia if you're listening. >> give me a break. >> i hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails. >> calling russia so ridiculous. >> he did call russia. of course, the gru, i almost said the soviet spies, putin wishes they were still soviet spies. the gru and intel wing of

russia's military that night took the call, and that was the night they started to try to hack into hillary clinton's emails. >> here we are. president trump seemed to forget that he asked russia for the help in the election. >> and they listened. >> on national television. don jr. was so excited. totally awesome, dude. >> while he refuses to safeguard mueller's investigation. >> do you remember that? what did don jr. say? he said bitching man or totally awesome. >> he said i love it. >> he said i love it. >> that bitching dude. >> i love it. >> a long weekend. it's monday. welcome back to "morning joe". it's monday, october 15th, 2018. still with us, we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc and co-host and executive producer of showtime the circus, john heilemann. john, i'll stage you.

when i go like this you wrap it up. >> okay. >> we have the council of foreign relations president richard haas. editor of commentary magazine, contributing editor of the weekly standard and columnist at the "new york post". >> joining the conversation former aide to the george h. w. bush white house elise jordan. and historian and author of "the soul of america," rogers professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university and he had a photographer there when he won his the list zero prize. he's the co-author of the new book out tomorrow entitled "impeachment" an american history. what interesting timing. we'll get to that in just a moment. >> john, all morning we've been talking about donald trump's "60 minutes" interview, especially when he was asked about allies.

and eu. and nato. let's listen to what donald trump had to say and then get your learned response. >> you have also slapped some tariffs on our allies. >> i mean what's an ally? we have wonderful relationships with a lot of people. nobody treats us much worse than the european union. the european union was formed in order to take advantage of us on trade. >> are you willing to disrupt the western alliance, it's been going for 70 years, it's kept the peace for 70 years. >> you don't know that. >> i don't know what? >> you don't know that. >> isn't it true general mattis said to you the reason for nato and all these alliances is to prevent world war iii. >> i like general mattis. i know more than he does. i know it better from the standpoint of fairness.

>> i'll try it one more time. >> the answer is this. i'll always be there with nato but they have to pay their way. >> this is a guy, john meacham, who thought during the campaign nuclear triad was a five hour energy drink and he says he knows more about foreign policy than general mattis. you can talk about that. you can talk about so much there. the biggest concern is that he really does have a complete ignorance of nato, the eu. that both of those institutions were thought of, dreamed of, developed, implemented in large part by americans and american presidents for the best interests of the united states of america and it's worked. >> we're going on 75 years or, i guess, more like 70 years dating back to this most recent presidential election where this

was the infrastructure of an uneasy but ultimately successful peace. we avoided nuclear armageddon, not the least because of these institutions that came out of democratic administrations, but which were totally supported by republicans. there used to be that generation, the gerald fords, the eisenhower republicans used to privately really resist the idea that ronald reagan had won the cold war, because as they would put it, kind of without a lot of gile, they would say the american people, the western alliance won the cold war. and what i think we're seeing here is the remarkable truth that there is, in fact, no learning curve with this particular president. this is exactly what he was saying when he picked up on the nato issue in the very

beginning, during the campaign. he's managed to monetize our alliances. he's managed to see everything as commerce. and i think mattis has been an important check. you hope that if mattis were to go there would continue to be at least some sense that trump's bark is not as bad as the bite. but we don't know. >> donald trump is operating in an alternate universe. asking questions or saying to leslie stahl you don't know the very things that we aldo know and history has proven it time and again that these alliances with europe helped us in so many ways. it was always general ma atlantis w -- mattis who tried to explain what was happening. mattis tried to give donald trump a history lesson because

donald trump doesn't read books and done know history. at the end that's when he bolted up angry, threat room and that's when the then secretary of state called him a moron. with another word. in front of moron. but if you believe that general mattis is a good check, secretary mattis is a good check on u.s. foreign policy, you'll be concerned with this next clip. >> i think i have a great cabinet. there are some people i'm not happy with. >> who are you not happy with. >> i don't want to say that. but i have some people that i'm not thrilled with and other people that i'm beyond thrilled with. >> what about general mattis. will he leave? >> i don't know. he hasn't told me. it could be that he is. i think he's sort of a democrat if you want to know the truth but, again, r but, general mattis is a good guy.

he may leave. at some point he may leave. people leave. that's washington. >> if he's a democrat then donald trump should love him because donald trump gave a ton of money to rahm emanuel, gave a ton of money to chuck schumer, gave a ton of money to the democratic national committee, to hillary clinton. trump has been a democrat his entire life until he discovered birthism in 2011. >> this president doesn't want to fire general mattis. whatever the opposite is of a ringing endorsement that's what we got. he's hoping essentially he gets the message and leaves. that early meeting at the pentagon general mattis is the embodiment of the bipartisan foreign policy tradition of american leadership. the problem is that he's working for someone who rejects the idea of what america has done over the last 70 years. donald trump believes the burdens and costs of what we've don't in the world far outweigh

the benefits. general mattis is the opposite. so who will stand up for the inheritance of this system we've and the over. it won't be john bolton. the question is whether mike pompeo will do it. it's not obvious to me who essentially represents the inheritance of american foreign policy that's worked so well for 70 years. not obvious to anybody else other than general mattis. >> remember back in the day when trump appointed mattis. he always said over and over, he called him mad dog. the only reason he appointed him he loved the nickname. i got a secretary of defense named mad dogma advertise. >> people laughed that knew mattis who said he's more general marshal than general patton. trump didn't know that. he was distracted by the

nickname. >> let's consider how far donald trump's evolution or lack thereof has come since the point of general mattis' first meeting with donald trump. general mattis explained that nuclear weapons cause a lot of destruction. so do you remember donald trump came out of that meeting was like oh, general mattis convinced me you don't want to use a nuclear weapon. like wow, this is where we are. i think to richard's point about ideology and wondering about the ideology, that's almost a luxury at this point. we don't even have the framework in place to execute foreign policy abroad. you look at no ambassador to turkey, no ambassador to saudi arabia. donald trump has said i alone can do it and he has said specifically is not going make these appointments because he doesn't need people. >> i think that's a very important point. ma cities an institutionalist. he's a live time military person, believer in international structures and all that. donald trump is a radical.

he's a radical outsider. for him all these things are structures that are limiting to america, to him as a person, to him as a president, and when he was unsure of himself as the leader of the united states, he wanted to surround himself with uniformed people that would make him look strong. he said at the end of the "60 minutes" interview he's now very comfortable as president which means he doesn't need h.r. mcmasters uniform, he doesn't need mattis' uniform, this is his presidency, he knows more than mattis and, therefore, that thing her had, that insecurity e had about having strength of the guy behind him he doesn't need. the clock is tick on mattis and john kelley. >> melania trump was on the air

as well. she was concerned about the family separation policy. ivanka called it a low point for her. the president talked last night about the family separation and somewhat defended it. >> what about the forced separation of children, migrant children -- >> that's the same as obama law. obama had the same thing. >> it was on the books but he didn't enfor it. you enforced it. you launched the zero tolerance policy to deter families with children coming in. >> then everybody decided and the courts don't want separation, and, frankly, when you don't do separate -- when you allow the parents to stay together, okay, when you allow that, then what happens is people are going to pour into our country. >> your going to go back to that? >> we're looking at a lot of things. we want to change the immigration laws because they are a laughingstock all over the world. >> can i ask a simple question yes or no.

are you willing to reinstitute that policy. you said i'm looking at everything. >> what i can say is this. there are consequences from coming into a country, namely our country illegally. >> so i guess that wasn't a no. >> john meacham, one of the bleaker moments of the trump presidency, certainly historians will record it as such, the family separation policy appears to be coming in for round two. steven miller is drafting a second approach and the president is open to it. >> well, it was -- hard to debate what's the low point. we could take the rest of the week and try to figure that out. the whole era has been a race to the bottom. and this is, to my mind, he must have some sense that the people he's talking to at these rallies, which interestingly even fox is not running, which i think is an interesting

inflection point must think they want this. there's no principle in this. he doesn't think it's a policy that works. he doesn't think that this is somehow important in some way. we're in the midst of this inherently transactional moment where the president of the united states thinks of us as an audience not as a country. and so everything he's doing is, i think, designed to keep that audience engaged and interested in him. >> that's a really good point in terms of how he thinks. >> the thing is though, john heilemann, i've said it from the beginning, his audience he's reaching it's a niche audience. there's a reason why even on fox news they stopped showing his rallies. he's saying the same thing over and over again. >> i want to speculate. will you speculate? >> i don't usually like to

speculate, but yes. >> the president cares about nothing more than ratings. so the ratings are down on his rallies to the point as john just said that fox news is no longer carrying them live because they realize they are losing advertising revenue. when the president hears that the fox news, his ratings are down so much the fox news are no longer covering the rallies. what's the president's reaction? what do these rallies look like as the president goes forward to get his ratings go up. >> let's see what happens at the next rally. bill shine does work at the white house. i'm sure he's been calling fox news. again wild speculation. i'm sure that jared has been calling murdoch. i'm sure they've been pressuring them to make sure that they put rallies on. let's see if fairfax ingenuous puts rallies on between now and then. >> does the president change his act? >> the trump would amp it up,

obviously, because for this niche it's so important for donald trump to have adoration from any front. look at chicago. i know. look at what he did when he started talking about beating people up. whenever donald trump starts to feel the energy go down -- >> spotlight turned away. >> he's an action junky. >> he goes crazy and becomes more intemperament and starts talk about beating people up and i'll pay for your legal bills if you beat them up. so perhaps we have that. >> can i make this point about his effectiveness at these rallies. he said last night that kavanaugh would not have been confirmed had he not attacked christine blasey ford in the speech. that's not true. the kavanaugh effect had already shown up in polling every where before he spoke. he was jumping on a band wagon. he had held back to some degree because he wasn't sure which

way -- >> you could tell when he went out that night, that he had seen internal polling that told him this is broken. two days before, three days before,ers timid as a mouse. or as some would say a baby. let's listen to both sides and i don't know if i'll support kavanaugh. mid-week it was starting to break. we were all feeling it. talking about it. suddenly then he decided to attack dr. ford. >> he wasn't ahead of it. he didn't transform the political moment. he was riding the political wave of a political moment. he does that. that's why, you know, he increasingly has done that and i think what's interesting about the stuff about family separation is he may be going back to something toxic and controversial in order to stir up the dust, because he also was very ginger about it. remember, i didn't want to do this. the democrats have to change things on the hill. they did it.

which is the most preposterous thing he ever said. it was like i really -- this is not a controversy i want on my hands. now he's hinting maybe i got to get my hand dirty in order to win the election. >> immigration, the most galvanizing issue the politics of the united states and other western countries. >> by the way, we talked about john mccain time and time again for good reason. so much to admire about senator mccain and i had memory but it's important to remember. before his last contested primary, what did he say in his 30 second spot? build that dang wall. >> build the dang fence. >> build the dang fence or something like that. as you get closer to election time, perhaps he thinks this gwynns up the base. >> john meacham, the new book "impeachment" examines the political climate surrounding

the potential removal from office of past presidents. tell us about it. >> this is a jeff engel at smu and nixon the great peter baker has done clinton and i did because i knew mika would want to talk about it, andrew johnson. it's hard to keep mika off the e-mail when it comes up about this. you know, impeachment is inherently a political process. there's been a debate from the very beginning about to what extent should it be legal. to what extent is a high crime and misdeamnor which is treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdeamnors in the constitution. at every point in the american experience it has been more of a political decision than a legal one. and so in andrew johnson's time you had a -- i don't know if any of this sounds familiar -- you had a figure who was

self-pitying, who often went on longish rants how the world was against him. again, maybe this rings a bell. and you had a republican party that believed he was too soft on the south and wanted to impeach him. he survived, ultimately, in the senate but the same drama tends to repeat itself. what we wanted to do here is look at impeachment historically, people can draw their own conclusions about what may or may not be coming. >> johnson's case was remarkable. he was saved by one vote, right? >> great deal of controversy about bribery and, you know, jack kennedy when he was doing "profiles in courage," there's a reason why there's only one volume which we've seen further evidence of in recent weeks, he sort of made, made the votes to

save johnson in a heroic figure. that has not stood the test of time. johnson was a really bad president. he was arguable y the most raci state paper in history. he was leading a campaign against congress and most of the articles in the articles of impeachment were about how he had attacked congress, which gives you some sense of how politically tactile this is and how, if this were to happen in the new year, it will be as political as it is legal. >> all right. the book "impeachment an american history" is on sale tomorrow. john meacham, thank you. >> it will be a best certainly. he's the beyonce of the literary world. everything he touches turns to gold. >> before we go to break i want

to put out a few thank us. i had an action-packed weekend. >> talk about on saturday, the kids are still talking about it. >> friday, saturday and sunday we were busy talking about the message of the book "know your value." all day saturday with women, 500 women from the mortgage bankers association from across the country. we spent the day playing out all the tips and strategies that are laid out in the book. that's marsha davies. this is our second time part nearing and it was an fly ball day. we met some incredible women who are really stepping up and owning their voice and boy do we need to do that now more than ever. on sunday it was in the black. we talked about, i pertaining to african-american women. it was a raw and honest conversation and we talked about our shared challenges and there's much more on this issue

on our website at knowyourvalue.com. thank you to marsha and linda. still ahead some of the countries in the news right now are turkey, saudi arabia, north korea and russia. each one with a humanitarian record more troubled than the next. how president trump's approach to foreign policy is ricocheting worldwide next on "morning joe".

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to help protect yourself from a stroke. unstopand it's strengthenedting place, the by xfi pods,gateway. which plug in to extend the wifi even farther, past anything that stands in its way. ...well almost anything. leave no room behind with xfi pods. simple. easy. awesome. click or visit a retail store today. what neighborhood was it? i don't know. where's the house? i don't know. upstairs, downstairs. where was it? i don't know. i had one beer. that's the only thing i remember. had i not made that speech we would not have won. i was just saying she didn't seem to know anything and you're trying to destroy a life of a

man who has been extraordinary. >> why did you have to make fun of her? >> i didn't really make fun. >> they were laughing. >> what i said the person we're talking about didn't know the year, the time, the place. >> professor christine blasey ford got before the senate and of asked what's the worst moment and she said when the two boys laughed at me, at my expense. and then i watched you mimic her and thousands of people were laughing at her. >> they can do -- i'll tell you this. the way justice kavanaugh was treated has become a big factor in the mid-terms. have you seen what's gone won the polls? >> but did you have to -- >> i think she was treated with great respect. i'll be honest. >> do you think you treated her with great respect? >> i sthothink so, i do, yeah. >> you seem to be saying she lied. >> we won.

it doesn't matter. >> it doesn't matter because we won. >> that's how he feels and he won. he did, actually. i think this was really bad for women and men and every time we respond extremely negative to such a toxic person they then can use that response against us, meaning women in this case, or the left or democrats in this case. what do you think >> it's just the republican party values winning at all costs in the era of donald trump and they did with, by elevating donald trump to the debate stage that very first debate which i maintain why was he up there? he was a democrat. it doesn't help anyone to have this kind of nastiness when it comes to the conversation around me too and sexual assault. it only brings out the polls and it actually makes people more angry and more reticent to actually attack the real problems there are by trivializing the way donald trump did. >> he loved that entire process.

it's who he was. divisive. angry. and ultimately victorious for him. joining us now director of domestic policy studies at stanford university and research professor. where do you want to begin? president trump apparently doesn't really have any problem with being in love with dictators, even when leslie stahl puts out in front of him what that means, the type of destruction and human indecency. how does it impact the united states on the world stage? >> i think the challenge, mika, is that the president's conduct of foreign policy is fundamentally transactional. it's a question of what relationship and which leverage point and how i do get the response i need right now. in some situations that's a fine approach. but when you look at the united states and you look at the

conduct of foreign policy over our history, it's always been about more than just a individual transaction. it's been about the message. it's been about the leadership. it's been about the tone. i think when you go away from those things and when you, for example, refuse to condemn russia squarely for having intervened in our atlantic city in 2016 and change the subject it creates confusion in minds of people who might choose to behave in a way that's abhor rents. kim jong-un in north korea. xi jinping in china. now potentially the crown prince in saudi arabia. these are the challenges that you face when you turn foreign policy entirely transactional. >> i'm struck, richard, by what was said earlier about donald trump liking what dictators can deliver to him. whether it's saudi arabia or turkey or russia or the philippines. right now just got news that the saudis have agreed to let the

turkish authorities go in and investigate inside a place where khashoggi disappeared. of course, that means they got the bleach out and cleaned the place up. but what is the long term impact for u.s. foreign policy? even though we're fighting china now, even president xi. he let's everybody knows how much he likes him personally. he's drawn to dictators. >> what happens is we're selective in who we criticize. we go after iran, we give north korea a pass. vice president pence went after china. we give russia a pass without consistency it seems to me the impact of our voice is essentially eliminated. plus who are the most important countries in the world for us over the last 75 years? they are democratic allies. these are the countries we're having the biggest trouble working with. this is the real force

multiplier for the united states. ufts not against the world it's us with others, the japanese, south korean, canadians and so forth and by downgrading these countries our democratic partners we're essentially taking away the biggest advantage the united states has had it's not america alone with the world. we are working with all these others. we add their gdp to ours, their military hope to ours and what we're doing is forfeiting. >> this is critical, absolutely critical to the country, to our history, to our future and yet, john heilemann out on the campaign trail how many people have you spoken who really care at all about our foreign policy? >> none. >> none. >> i wouldn't say none. >> very few. >> not literally none. it's always the case. this is one thing that's stayed consistent in my coverage that

except in very extraordinary circumstances, especially in mid-term years, you don't hear a lot of foreign policy discussion even in a place like in devon nunez district where if any place in the country we expect to hear discussion about russia and his role as trump's lap dog on the house intelligence committee most people except for activists in the far parts of either part of the party -- they've heard it a little bit but focused on other issues. they will vote for or against him on a lot of other issues. >> so here's my question about what john heilemann just said. so foreign policy is not an active issue in elections. but the architecture of foreign policy, what views of foreign policy reflect about candidate nationally may really have an effect and trump, it seems to me, exposed a weakness in the

american foreign policy establishment in its sense of conde scenetion to the american people and what's good is this nato stuff and trade stuff. it doesn't seem to be helping me personally. that's a case that needs be made again and again and for the last 15 years people stopped making it, don't you think? >> you're absolutely right. the same argument we have about free trade. free trade is part of this narrative you're talking about. really fewer and fewer politicians were willing to make the argument for why free trade was a benefit to our economy. i can couldn't on one hand the number of members of congress who would be willing to do that. so i think what you end up having is this notion that the u.s. involvement in the global

order, the u.s. involvement in multilateral institutions was a failure. the president was able to peddle that notion but that's how people began to feel and he channelled to the point that you all were making earlier about the president riding the wave. he rode the wave of this sort of anti-globalist, anti-multilateral sentiment that was present throughout the electorate. to the extent we talk about foreign policy it's in larger narratives. it's not about specific issues. how do people feel about the conduct of foreign policy. so when the president go out and say i want information pay their way. the reason it vote natures no one was making the other argument which is why it is we have these institutions that the u.s. has been involved in, that other countries have been involved in and what's the benefit to america? >> what's fascinate even when newt gingrich ran in 1994 as a flame thrower and a guy who was going to blow washington to pieces, he didn't care about

niceties, when battles came up over bosnia, and the people like me were saying we don't need to be involved in bosnia, we don't need be involved in kosovo, taking that old traditional republican line. gingrich at that point would step up and say we're the party of reagan, we're the party of engagement. same thing with what we call the mexican bail out. we would always have these sort of populist instincts, populist urges and at that point there was newt gingrich and leaders in the senate that would step up and say calm down, boys, calm down, women, this is who we are as a party. and we have to still maintain our place in the world for the good of the world. there aren't those people in this republican congress any more, are there? >> no. but i wonder if the american public is going to be somewhat of a check just given the way

that the news cycle has changed and i'm talking particularly with regard to saudi arabia. now donald trump's position is not a populist position. same elite position that every administration prior to him has had on steroids, even worse. you look how there's a portion of the republican electorate that's very skeptical about the way saudi arabia has been treated with kid gloves for so many years after being directly linked government support to the 9/11 hijackers. so that untruth as it continues to come out, as the narrative continues to develop about the ties of jared kushner's family, potentially and financing of these buildings, i think it's a tenuous position for donald trump. >> thank you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead, president trump likes to claim it's the democrats who are uncivil.

but one republican gubernatorial candidate is making news for threatening to stomp on the face of his democratic opponent. >> with golf spikes. >> what? that's coming up on "morning joe". from the very beginning ... it was always our singular focus. to do whatever it takes, use every possible resource. to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own.

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the decline in civility ahead of the mid-term elections appears to be only getting worse. in virginia the republican party there posted a photo on its facebook and twitter accounts of democrat leslie cochran saying she hates america. she's running against republican denver riggleman for the state's 5th congressional district. a spokes man for riggleman has declined to comment while cochran said the democrat was stunned his opponent wouldn't condemn the take. in pennsylvania republican gubernatorial candidate scott wagner is walking back comments he made in a campaign video against governor tom wolf in which he threatened violence.

>> governor wolf, let me tell you between now and november 6th you better put a catcher's mask on your face because i'm going to stomp all over your face with golf spikes because i'm going to win this for the state of pennsylvania and we're throwing you out of office. >> wagner took the video down and posted a new one in which he said he may have used a poor choice of words. may have? >> may have. >> this is a guy who he made the video and then chose to release it. there were so many steps involved. >> wasn't exactly like a spontaneous moment. >> people signed off on his decision. put him forward. >> somebody wrote that script and everyone looked at it and said ate great idea. they shot it. then they released it. >> sound judgment. usually when you release a campaign video you're psyched

about what you created. >> i think they misread the mood especially when so many republicans are making an issue of democrats being the left wing mob. at that moment people are like oh, if we're going to make that argument, it's hard. >> it's crazy time. still ahead did newt gingrich pave the way for donald trump's rise to the presidency? the former speaker of the house seems to think so. we'll have that reporting next. >> governor wolf, between now and november 6th you better put a catcher's mask on your face because i'm going stomp all over your face with golf spikes because i'm going to win this for the state of pennsylvania and we're throwing you out of office. (vo) this is not a video game.

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unstopand it's strengthenedting place, the by xfi pods,gateway. which plug in to extend the wifi even farther, past anything that stands in its way. ...well almost anything. leave no room behind with xfi pods. simple. easy. awesome. click or visit a retail store today. she says that you came to her in 1999, at a time when you were having an affair. she says you asked her, sir, to enter into an open marriage. would you like to take some time to respond to that

>> no. but i will. i think the destructive, vicious, negative nature of much of the news media makes it harder to govern this country, harder to attract decent people to run for public office, and i am aprpalled you would begin a presidential debate on a topic like that. >> that was former house speaker newt gingrich in 2012 with a stirring attack on the media that in many ways foreshadowed what would happen in 2016. joining us now, staff writer at the atlantic magazine, the new piece "newt gingrich says you're welcome." also entitled how newt gingrich broke american politics. do you think it was newt gingrich alone? >> i think his rise embodied a lot of the characteristics of our current political culture. in a lot of ways he did lay the ground work for norm shredding

and tradition defining we're seeing in american politics. what's interest about newt gingrich he barely argues with you when you present this thesis to what's fascinating is yes he shredded norms in washington. you can trace a lot of it back

to him, but he was a historian. i was just explaining how in critical times when the president of the united states, even if the president of the united states was a democrat, newt would pull back and he would go back to really his instincts as a historian and say, we're going to war, we have to support the president in war. i really don't like the mexican bailout but this is about trade and free trade and open borders. that is a huge difference that gingrich understood history, understood the ramifications of it. donald trump just does not. >> there's no question that donald trump has not read as many books as newt gingrich has. this is an interesting thing, though. newt gingrich has since he was basically 15 years old seen

himself as kind of a great man of history. even when he was young, he would read these books about war and place himself in the center of these grand american narratives. what's interesting is that he got a lot of flak from a lot of the conservatives he helped elect, because a lot of them came to the side, especially in retrospect, that he cared less about conservative ideology than he did about political power. he was able to build consensus or find consensus with the clinton white house. at other times it kind of made for an incoherent political world view where it looks like it was about newt going ruingri anyone policy agenda.

>> what would you say he sees as his actual policy legacy? >> that's a great question. i pressed him on this several times. what i found most interesting about my time with him was the way that he's kind of revising his legacy now in realtime away from the deserve policies that his pop populist disruptions fw supposed to enable. he was enshirining this attitud that was visceral and combative and triable. when i asked him about his legacy, he kind of took me on this tour of the western world gripped in crisis with populist revolts in european and basically said they were

necessary to save western civilization. that's kind of the legacy he sees for himself. >> this now is a kind of common thesis that traces back trump's rise much more to pat buchannon. the things that i see in gingrich that are reminiscent are two things, one, the way that gingrich has used maw maw the liberal media. >> that scene in the south carolina debate is a key scene in my profile. i think it's because he did foreshadow both trump's attacks on the media but also this kind of broader narrative where he

took the kind of frankly boring partisan battles of washington, the policy debates that were inaccessible or uninteresting to a lot of americans and turned into these grander narratives about good versus evil and black hats versus white hats and the liberal media was on the wrong side. they were the bad guys. gingrich writes that the america that donald trump is championing and the america of the liberal establishment and the political elites and the media elites are incompatible with each other. there's no compromise to have had. one side will simply defeat the other. those are his word. i'm paraphrasing here. that's how he sees politics. it's a zero sum game. i think that more than anything is kind of the connection between gingrich's america and the way that we see the trump presidency unfolding now. >> just a note, john, after that debate newt gingrich won south

carolina. he rallied the base there. huge victory in south carolina. >> if he had the same money that mitt romney had, he would have won the nomination every time. thank you so much. we're talking about gingrich's legacy. in 1994 when we came in, newt gingrich said democrats have been in power for 40 years. our goal is to be in power for the next 40 years and this is how you're going to do it. you're going to go home, you're going to hold town hall meetings every week, you're not going to live in washington, you're going to work here, go home, stay there. it's been 24 years since that speech. republicans have controlled the house of representatives for 20

of those 24 years. that's newt gingrich's legacy, for better or worse. after not controlling it for 40 years, that is newt gingrich's lega legacy. president trump is doubling down on his love for north korean dictator kim jong-un. we'll play you his latest comments. plus, we'll be joined by two lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle. mitzi: psoriatic arthritis tries to get in my way? watch me. ( ♪ ) mike: i've tried lots of things for my joint pain. now? watch me. ( ♪ ) joni: think i'd give up showing these guys how it's done? please. real people with active psoriatic arthritis are changing the way they fight it. they're moving forward with cosentyx. it's a different kind of targeted biologic.

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i always used to say the toughest people are manhattan real estate guys. now i say they're babies. i'm not a baby. >> i know, but -- >> i'm not saying i trust everybody in the white house. i'm not a baby. i'm president and you're not. >> what's the baby thing? i don't get the baby thing. >> he wants to make it clear to you that he's not a baby. that and he's the president. he wanted to make those things clear. >> baby president. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, october 15th. we have john heilemann. president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard hawes.

>> what did you think about the president last night? >> seemed like a baby. >> big baby. and really, really ill equipped and unfit to lead this country. >> more than one or two references about the emperor not having any clothes, john heilemann, parading around. >> but he doesn't realize it. >> like a naked baby. >> a clothed free baby. that's how babies are, they generally don't have much in the way of clothing. >> so what did you think of the president? what was your take? >> i thought that, you know, there was nothing in it that would not enrage all the people who were already enraged by him. you know, just being a journalist, talk about the president's level of preparation for the interview. how equipped does the president appear to be 19, 20 months in to be president of the united states, just objectively based on his answers? >> there was no way in which -- >> let's not grade him on a scale.

we're just going to do this straight up. they are not going to score it like they do at harvard where everybody gets an a. this is university of alabama graduation. you don't do well, you are back in piggly wiggly. how did he do? >> i thought on the question of how well he seemed to understand the world in all of its dimensions and complexity i would grade him in the d range. >> the d range. >> i think that right now when you are looking at the question that -- the burning question for a lot of people as a journalist is how is the president going to react on the question of the saudis, and that is where this i'm not a baby thing came up. it's like i'm a man of the world. of course i understand that bad things happen, but what he did not demonstrate in that moment, i think that's the thing that people are looking to right now, is for moral leadership on that question and that was utterly an absent in terms of how he discussed that issue. there are a variety of things to be concerned about in the interview and a lot of things

that you could criticize him for, but that's the burning issue of our moment and on that issue i thought he demonstrated neither an enormous capacity with the facts but also not the proper level of outrage over the thing that seems to have happened. >> john podhoretz. nixon frost or stall trump? >> i think it was a very important interview because it was trump coming fully out and saying i am running -- i couldn't say amoral but beyond moral presidency. >> valueless. >> he said i don't want to screw up arms sales, he said, look, don't ask me to criticize putin because i rely on him to do a lot of things for me. we don't know what that means, by the way. he said, you know, he was upset about jamal khashoggi, but, you know, he didn't want to upset the apple cart. he wasn't going to go deep into climate change because it would affect jobs. this is trump's line as

president and will be his line in 2020, which is let's cut all the crap. i'm here to help americans do american jobs, i'm not going to get the united states involved in things because i'm upset morally, i've got a different hand to play. and this is going to be the crux of the argument that he is going to make for reelection. assuming that the country doesn't fall into chaos at home or catastrophe at home, he is going to say, i'm here to deliver for you, so don't throw all your moralism at me. i'm a new york real estate guy, all these people in washington are savages, i'm a savage back to them and this is who we are right now. >> richard haass, we've heard business owners, we've heard ceos, we've heard others talk about how over the past decade or so it's been difficult to compete with china because there were always -- well, with the united states -- values attached.

yes, we will do business with you, but you can't produce twice the pollution that the united states and the eu produce. you can't just go around and murder journalists on one day and expect us to come to your conferences the next day. whereas, china has been operating in a valueless zone. it appears now that we are in the realm of what we criticize china for being just two years ago. >> for a long time one of the big debates about foreign policy was american exceptionalism, that somehow we were different, we were going to be the shining city on a hill, we were going to stand for different things, we were going to do things differently. we didn't always live up to it, but that was the idea. so much for that. we have basically jettisoned american exceptionalism, we are now just like everybody else, we have princelings working in positions of power, commercialism is the guiding

light, the lodestar shall we say of american foreign policy. john is right, it's amoral to the point of being immoral, but now we are -- we've joined the pack and instead of them coming to us, which was the whole idea of american foreign policy, we were going to raise everybody's game to ours, guess what, joe, we have now lowered our game to theirs. >> are we respected abroad? >> we lost credibility abroad. america used to be a country that everyone would watch what's their reaction, what are they going to say, they cared about america's reaction and no one cares anymore. i was just in turkey and no one cares about america's opinion anymore at the moment. we did lose moral ground. >> that's a big change. here is the president in the interview about the trustworthiness of the north korean dictator. >> do you trust him? >> i do trust him, yeah, i trust him. that doesn't mean i can't be proven wrong. >> why would you trust him? >> first of all, why i didn't trust him i wouldn't say that to him. i do trust him, but we will see what happens. >> is it true that they haven't gotten rid of a single weapon and they may actually be

building more missiles with nuclear -- >> i will tell you that they're closing up sites. >> but is what i said true, that they haven't -- >> nobody really knows. people are saying that. >> yeah. >> i've actually said that and -- >> that they're still building missiles, more missiles? >> we don't really know. we really don't know. but i assume -- >> do you suspect that? >> let's say the answer is yes. >> okay. >> okay. >> and then we fell in love. okay? no, really. he wrote me beautiful letters. and they're great letters. we fell in love. >> i want to read you his resumé, okay? >> go ahead. >> he presides over a cruel kingdom of repression, gulags, starvation, reports that he had his half-brother assassinated, slave labor, public executions. this is a guy you love. >> i know all of these things. i'm not a baby. >> why do you love that guy? >> look, look, i like -- i get along with him, okay?

>> but you said i love him. >> okay. that's just a figure of speech. >> no, it's like an embrace. >> well, let it be an embrace. let it be whatever it is -- >> but he is a bad guy. >> look, let it be whatever it is. i get along with him really well, i have a good energy with him, i have a good chemistry with him. look at the horrible threats that were made. no more threats. no more threats. >> what a baby. not a baby. >> what a baby. >> willie geist and i love to play a game and if you answer it correctly a duck would come down. when barack obama was president we would always say what if a republican president said what he just said. let's change the game. what if barack obama had said what donald trump just said about kim jong-un. literally locusts would descend from the heavens in washington, d.c. and eat the flesh from the bones of all the republican opponents.

it would be madness. absolute madness. how could conservatives not be shocked and offended by what he's doing after all we heard and a lot of what i said over eight years about barack obama kowtowing to iran. >> american exceptionalism is gone. you remember obama came under enormous criticism when he was asked about american exceptionalism and he said, well, america is exceptional, greece thinks grease is exceptional -- >> see -- >> here is my point is that obama came at american exceptionalism from the left. he was like this has mired us in war and caused chaos without our meaning to cause chaos and i want to pull back from this. trump is saying i'm going to

do -- i will say whatever i have to say and i will do whatever i have to do as long as the results are fine. so conservatives went crazy about obama because he seemed to be talking down the united states and trump is saying, i live in a different world, i live in a world of results and so if i bring you the results, yell at me all you like from your, you know -- from your hyde park corner -- >> ivory tower. >> -- ivory tower. i'm a new york real estate guy. i'm not a baby. >> you are all babies with the human rights and the -- you are all babies. >> human rights, environmental standards, all of those ronald reagan quotes. >> that is where he has transformed the republican party because that veneer, the veneer -- >> of course.

>> you know, even though people default to it like lindsey graham last week is saying we're going to cut off arm sales to saudi arabia, we are not going to let this happen, what happened to khashoggi is a major international crisis and trump has reflected that a little bit but you know he doesn't mean it. >> they have sold out -- episcopal have sold out on values at home, the very things that they were so shocked and stunned and deeply saddened by with bill clinton, they are now completely passing off as nobody's business, you can look at franklin graham, and other evangelical leaders, who have, you know, sold their souls for this guy politically on foreign policy issues, the ideas of ronald reagan out the window. a city shining brightly on the hill for all to see, not on your life. trump says, just give me money. >> let's take him by his own merits. john is pointing out trump said just judge me by the results. let's look at the results in north korea. what are the results? >> a lot more nukes. >> the answer is they continue to build -- remember pat moynihan's statement that we're defining deviancy down? we're now defining diplomatic success down.

still ahead on "morning joe", president trump is unwinding a decades old alliance. that two-part diatribe is next on "morning joe." when did you see the sign? when i needed to jumpstart sales. build attendance for an event. help people find their way. fastsigns designed new directional signage. and got them back on track. get started at fastsigns.com.

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through internet essentials, comcast has connected more than six-million low-income people to low-cost, high-speed internet at home. i'm trying to do some homework here. so they're ready for anything. president trump implied that he had rejected advice from general mattis about the origins of nato and would continue to pressure europe. >> you have also slapped some tariffs on our allies. >> what's an ally? we have wonderful relationships with a lot of people, but nobody treats us much more than the european union. the european union was formed in order to take advantage of us on trade. >> are you willing to disrupt the western alliance that's been going for 70 years, it's kept the peace for 70 years --

>> you don't know that. >> i don't know what? >> you don't know that. >> is it true general mattis said to you the reason for nato and the reason for all these alliances is to prevent world war iii? >> no, it's not true. frankly i like general mattis, i think i know more about it than he does and i know more about it from the standpoint of fairness, that i can tell you. >> i'm going to try one more time. okay. >> you don't have to try again. >> well, answer my question. >> the answer is this, i will always be there with nato, but they have to pay their way. >> you know, richard -- >> you don't want mattis to leave. boy, oh, boy, do you not want him to leave. >> donald trump if anybody else said what donald trump just said there they would be castigated as a fool. this is, of course, this is the danger when people like donald trump and jared kushner run around and say they don't need to read history. if you read history all you see is people that have been failing through the years.

of course, both of them coming into office not realizing the united states was the most powerful, the wealthiest and most respected country on the planet. for donald trump to say that you don't know whether the e.u. or nato has had an extraordinary impact on the united states and has by far allowed us to be the most powerful country on the planet, and i would suggest over the last 50 years, most powerful country since the roman empire just shows a complete lack of understanding and a complete ignorance of history. a willful, willing ignorance of history and this guy is president of the united states. you don't know? that's like saying you don't know that the red sox beat the astros last night. yes. yes, we do. because we stayed up and watched it.

>> he did not -- this is a guy -- this is a guy who just didn't read books growing up. he doesn't know the basics of american history. >> i will resist responding to your baseball comment. on the history, this is serious. the e.u. was created to make sure that france and germany were so knitted together that war, which had had twice ravaged europe, could not happen again. the two great creative things of western state craft of the 20th century were what? nato and the european -- >> i know donald trump doesn't know this, but post 1945, between '45 and '47 we didn't know what was going to happen with western europe. there was a refugee crisis that was absolutely ravaging the continent and the communists were trying to take control of countries like italy, trying to get influence in france, trying to get influence -- you know, all across western europe. >> absolutely. and the first -- what was the first great test of the cold war? berlin.

and what the soviets were trying to do there. this was the cockpit of history and what we did together with the europeans will -- future generations will look upon and say this was really -- this was extraordinary diplomacy, this was creative. dean acheson's book his memoire was present at the creation, that was not an exaggeration. very little in history is automatic and what these people did, truman and the others was quite extraordinary. you have somebody inheriting this and throwing it away casually saying what's an ally? or the e.u. is simply there to rip us off. he's not putting anything in its place. he will leave the world a dramatically changed and worsened place. u.s. influence will be down, stability will be down because we're taking the inheritance, we're throwing it away and we're not substituting for it. coming up on "morning joe," saudi arabia is not going to

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again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe. >> do you agree that vladimir putin is involved in assassinations, in poisonings? >> probably. i rely on him. it's not in our country. >> wait, we don't understand, he kills journalists. he said we do too. >> yeah. that was a revelation for the viewers.

saudi arabia is pushing back amid growing international pressure over the disappearance and alleged death of "washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi. the kingdom's government said yesterday that it would not back down to threats, warning it would retaliate to any possible sanctions by flexing its economic power. that comes amid president trump's new interview in which he vowed severe punishment if it is found that saudi leaders had khashoggi killed. >> was he murdered by the saudis and did the prince give the order to kill him? >> nobody knows yet, but we will probably be able to find out. it's being investigated. it's being looked at very, very strongly. we would be very upset and angry if that were the case. as of this moment they deny it and they deny it vehemently. could it be them? yes. >> jared, your son-in-law, got on the phone and asked the prince did he -- did he deny it? >> they deny it. they deny it every way you can imagine. in the not too distant future i think we will know the answer. >> what are your options? let's say they did.

what are your options? would you consider imposing sanctions as a bipartisan group of senators have proposed? >> it depends on what the sanction is. >> tell everybody what's at stake here. you know, this is -- >> well, there is a lot at stake. there is a lot at stake and maybe especially so because this man is a reporter. you will be surprised to hear me say that, there's something really terrible and disgusting about that if that were the case, so we're going to have to see. we're going to get to the bottom of it and there will be severe punishment. >> our moral credibility, our ability to call putin a murderer because he is, our ability to call assad a murderer because he is, our ability to confront maduro in venezuela or any other human rights atrocities like what we see in china all of that is undermined and compromised if we somehow decide that because an ally who is important did that we're not going to call it out.

>> how could mbs think that he could kill a "washington post" columnist and actually have his country live to tell about it economically? >> the answer is if you can start a war in yemen, you can essentially do an economic and political war against qatar, if you can act with impunity surrounded by a small group of yes, sir m yes men in sauds di saudi arabia. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> you won. no one is going to argue with that. >> i won. >> then after you won, instead

of saying let's all come together, you come out and bash the democrats. >> well, i bashed their attitude. because they were so unfair to judge kavanagh. >> we need to be healed. >> i don't think they want to heal yet. i'll be honest. >> or you don't want to heal yet. >> i saw hillary clinton made a really nasty statement. i don't think they want to be healed. i do want to heal. >> we've got a joint bipartisan interview with senators james la lankford and jean shaheen.

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we especially want to thank the administration. you really fought for us, unusually so from the time you

took office. we're very grateful. there are a number of people in the senate. i can't mention everyone, but i know senator tillis visited me in prison, so did senator shaheen and senator graham. we're so grateful to so many in congress who stood with us and prayed for us and fought for us. we want to thank you all very much. >> that was pastor andrew brunson at the white house on saturday, expressing gratitude for the trump administration and members of congress for his safe return to the u.s. after two years being held prisoner in turkey. joining us now are two senators who are part of a longstanding

push to get turkey to release the pastor. james lankford of oklahoma and jean shaheen. >> it goes all the way back to october of 2016 when pastor brunson was picked up in the coup. i was there in december of 2016 meeting with the judiciary and the justice minister there in ankara trying to pick up what charges they were with. this has been constant pressure on turkey to be able to act like a nato ally. finally last week turkey read all the charges and recommended ten years of prison.

>> this is a very exciting development. i am so thrilled for pastor brunson and his family. they made sure no one forgot that he was being falsely held in prison in turkey. it was a wonderful cooperative bipartisan effort across state agencies with the department of state, with the white house, even with the defense department and so many senators working to try and secure his release. that's the way government should function. when an american citizen is held overseas wrongly, everyone should know we're going to do

everything possible to get them out. >> was it a transaction? was anything given in return? >> no, not that we can tell. turkey has asked for billions of dollars in sanctions released, they've asked for gulen. they've asked for his return. literally president erdogan came up and said we will give you your pastor if you'll turn over gulen. so they pushed for that for now two years. that didn't happen. we've continued to add additional sanctions on them to say we expect you to act like an ally. you don't hold an american hostage and ask for favors.

>> i want to talk about jamal khashoggi's murder. the turks have obviously an important role here in bringing this to light. tell us what you think about the role they played and where you think this story goes from here in light of the president's comments last night. >> before i address that, i want to point out that turkey is still holding some other americans, a former nasa scientist and former state department employees they are also falsely imprisoning. i hope the release of pastor brunson is an indication of more to come in terms of releasing the other hostages. one of the good these pieces of this is that hopefully once they

release the american citizens they are holding, it will allow us to get back on better footing. they are a nato ally. we need to have a good relationship with turkey. i hope they will begin to act more like a democracy and less like a dictatorship. one of the maces where they could be very helpful is with what happened to mr. khashoggi. what we have heard is they are interested in working with the united states to try and find out what happened there. it's my understanding the saudis have refused to give access to the embassy. but finding out what happened is very important.

saudi arabia has not been acting within international norms and we need to send a clear message about that. >> president trump yesterday in his interview with res lleslie seemed to suggest it's bad if saudi arabia did this. we'll find out if they did it. hey, you know, we've got to keep this in perspective. there's a lot of arms sales that we're making to the saudis. we've all got to see this through the proper lens, which for him seems to be commerce. the president is putting commercial interests ahead of the normal u.s. role of trying to set a moral example for the rest of the world. >> these values we have of the

free exercise of religion, free press, free speech, these are basic things in our values that we don't believe are just american values. we believe these are inalienable rights of everybody in the world. we want people to have a sense of hope in their country that one day they could have free speech and freedom of religion. the president has pushed back hard on the lever that some people are pushing to him saying cut off all military aid. that's one option. i've heard people say, i don't want to just say there's only one thing we could do to push back. one caveat, we don't know about his status at this point. it always makes me concerned that he's been murdered,

dismembered. i'd like to know what's going to happen before we press on the next step. >> if you find out if the reports out of turkey are true and we find out he has been murdered and there was a plot, if stopping military sales is not the only option, what option would you prefer? >> i'm not saying what that option would be at this point, joe. same thing that i've said before, let's find out what's happened to him and then find out what we'll do to respond to this. we've got to not assume that he has been murdered until we know that. obviously it doesn't look good. he walked into an embassy. there's no footage of him walking out. i hope the saudis will open up

the embassy for a good inspection to find out what happened to him. the president has just tweeted, just spoke to the king of saudi arabia who denies any knowledge of whatever may have happened to our saudi arabian citizen. he said they are working closely with turkey to find answer. i am immediately sending our secretary of state to meet with king. >> interesting to our saudi arabian citizen. i hope the president of the united states responded, well, we really want to know what happened to our resident of the united states and the "washington post" columnist. i hope he certainly told the leader of saudi arabia that we're looking grimly on how things have developed. yes, maybe their saudi arabian

resident, but somebody who lived in the united states and was a "washington post" columnist. you don't behave that way on the international stage. still ahead, how big business is reacting to saudi arabia's reported role in the murder of a "washington post" columnist. what that disturbing situation means for the economy and human rights around the world. "morning joe" back in a moment. . they baptized me in mud and christened me on rock, so i got tougher. they fostered a love of learning, so i got smarter. taught me to appreciate the finer things in life, so i became more civilized and refined. thank you, freedom and adventure, for giving me this rugged, civilized, wandering soul. i that's the retirement plan.e, rugged, civilized, with my annuity, i know there is a guarantee. it's for my family, its for my self,

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amid the growing pressure against saudi arabia, business leaders and media companies are pulling out of an investment conference set to take place there later this month. that includes jp morgan chase ceo jamie dimon. bill ford announced he too would not be attending. one person still slated to go is treasury secretary steve mnuchin. mnuchin has so far resisted bipartisan calls to withdraw from the event. speaking yesterday, larry cud low explained mnuchin's rationale for not backing out. >> it's actually a conference about terrorist financing and how to stop it. regarding secretary mnuchin, spoke to him last evening. at the moment he is intending to go because of the importance of

the issue of ending terrorist financing. but, again, along with the president and the general investigation, mr. mnuchin will make up his mind as the week progresses and as new information surfaces.

>> well, i mean, going to saudi arabia, to talk about how to stop terrorist financing is like going to figure out how to fight

fires. the reality is, this is a regime that it shouldn't have taken the apparent murder to make us up wake up to the reality of the regime which has a sword on its flag so it was very transparent with us all along. the reality is the american government has for too long been cozy with the regime that has been described as an isis that made it. and an american business has been too cozy with this regime. >> you say specifically -- talk about silicon valley, you actually wrote a piece on how silicon valley has a real saudi problem. >> you know, it's funny, for the last -- i was on the show. who i believe broke the american dream while telling us they were changing the world. these billionaires who pretend

to be saving us. and i went into the kind of inner sanctums and tried to find the report of these people who use idealism as a cover for naked profiteering and power grabbing. never did i find as stark as example of this as what has now been unveiled in silicon valley here, the capital of billionaire idealism and rich people claiming they're here to change the world and make a difference. i would ask their viewers, do any of you use uber, the dog walking app wag, door dash to deliver a lunch? boring work chats on slack all day long? all those idealistic apps are brought to you by the kingdom of saudi arabia. now spends billions of dollars and has figured out that you can't just cultivate washington, you can't just cultivate blue chip companies.

saudi arabia has infiltrated these apps through silicon valley. that is part of our daily life. and use these apps to launder their own reputation and we all have become part of this complexity machine. >> i was at an event where a number of people who were lobbyists who had taken money for saudi arabia, a number of people in the diplomatic community, were all there. the two things they said, even people who had been lining their pockets with saudi arabian money. not just businesspeople but people on the saudi payroll said we got to quit this week. our other clients won't tolerate this. we're out. the diplomats were all saying it's over for saudi arabia. what my question is, what does that mean? when they say -- this is a bridge too far, this will fundamentally alter the way in which middle eastern influence works in washington, d.c. i could not get to the bottom of what exactly that meant. what are the knockdown effects going forward? >> i'm skeptical there will be serious effects. when there is somebody like the

saudi arabia regime, you'll look at what silicon valley is doing. you'll look at what people are saying on shows like this. you also look at what the president of the united states is. ultima ultimately, when he continued to say, we're going to look the other way, that is speaking volumes above what's happening with the fallouts from these conferences. they looked at trump and they thought, we have a calculation here. this guy likes dictators, hates the press and has deep financial ties to the saudis. isn't really going to push back that hard if we kill khashoggi. so far, that calculation has proven correct. >> exactly, not a strong response. appears now businesses are stepping in to fill the moral void that is emanating from this white house. >> i think this is such an important point because we have an abdication of moral leadership in the white house. rest of the world hasn't had this. europe cares about these things. so do ourallies elsewhere.

like climate change, also in the video. the saudi regime -- >> is the british government going to move? >> released a strong statement this morning, saying basically we're going to look into this. yes, i think these governments obviously have really problematic ties to saudi arabia too, as the u.s. bipartisan stain has gone back decades as well. i think they're turning in a way. i think on all of these questions about america's moral leadership, these countries are looking at what's happening under trump and they're thinking the u.s. is no longer a reliable partner so they're changing their strategy long term too. we talk about trump as though he's this guy who's a realist, looking out for u.s. interest. you can't solve problems in the 21st century alone. america first is bad for the u.s. >> especially if it doesn't have a moral code. >> it's also interesting, annan, with all the cross currents going on, you also have the

cross current of this anti-muslim rhetoric that donald trump has been stirring up for quite some time. americans have long been skeptical of saudi arabia. you can go back to opec and the energy crisis in the early to mid-19 mid-1970s. there's been a hostility and resentment for some time. i wonder if actually that plays out in this debate from voters. >> not for the first time, joe, utterly backwards. the problem in the world is -- >> oh, we're losing annan. >> i'll ask you the same thing while we try to get him. there's always been hostility towards saudi arabia. there's always been -- you can take it back again to 19 3, 1974 and the oil embargo, the energy crisis. i wonder if that plays out and makes us different than charlottesville or other abnormal steps that donald trump has taken.

>> i don't think this is going to be something that moves a lot of voters in trump's camp. when you have people cheering at a rally, when trump says i love the north korean dictator. i don't think people are motivated by foreign policy -- >> what about independence? >> yes, i think anyone who has not been disgusted by trump's abdication of moral leadership, that's not going to tip the scales for them. this could tip the scales for people in washington who care about the idea that america stands for something. especially if they go against trump, could switch and say we're going to be the assertion of american moral leadership from the senate or the house. that's what i hope happens. trump is somebody who is advocating and everybody else pushes back. >> finish your point. we got you back. sorry about that. >> not for the first time, donald trump has it 180 degrees backwards. the problem is with the kingdom of saudi arabia which is a beheading regime, and the reality is i think for all of

us, this is a -- this relationship with saudi arabia has been a toxic abusive relationship we should have gotten out of a long time ago. i hope this a parent murder of this journalist will be the wake-up call we all need to finally choose between frankly values and money. the only thing saudi arabia has ever had over us is a lot of money. this is a choice between whether we have ideals as businesses, as a society. as individual consumers. or whether we just, you know, whether we just respond to the big swinging checkbook. >> totally agree. >> i think we were talking earlier today, mbs is a complicated character. this was there -- he did a lot of bad things. people were hoping against hope that, well, we got to let him be the way he is. we got to let him be oppressive in certain ways because he's trying to move the ball slowly forward as a modernizer. this is the kind of act, though, that crosses the line for a lot of people. it's certainly the case whatever happens in the realm of diplomacy, in the realm of

foreign policy, economics and finance, everyone in our world now will talk about mbs in a different way. if it's true he ordered an assassination of a citizen in an embassy -- >> a "washington post" columnist. >> a "washington post" columnist. >> an american resident. >> the way in which the press treats him now will be different i think going forward. i think that's important. >> that does it for us this morning. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> mika, joe, thank you very much. i'm chris janicing in for stephanie ruhle. this morning, president trump heads to the storm zone just moments from now, days after michael ravaged the panhandle and hours after that wide-ranging interview with "60 minutes," talking everything from climate change to his cabinet and his relationships with vladimir putin and kim jong-un. >> i'm not denying climate change. but it could very well go back. i think he's sort of a democrat if you want to know the truth. but general mattis is a good guy. we get