it's on the ballot this november in the form of every republican candidate. who associates himself or her herself with donald trump's name calling. which seems to focus most intensely and most frequently on women. women who challenge him or threaten him or heaven forbid insult him. today's installment of donald trump's denigration of women came in the form of a tweet about stormy daniels, president tweeting this, "federal judge throws out stormy daniels' lawsuit versus trump. trump is entitled to full legal fees. at fox news, great, now i can go after horse face and her third-rate laywyer in the great state of texas. she'll confirm the letter she signed. she knows nothing about me. a total con." horse face. the president of the united states called a woman with whom he had an alleged sexual relationship horse face. unfortunately it's the kind of insult, personal, childish and mean, that people have become so accustom to with this president that it barely registered as news but it renders the first

lady's "be best" campaign, anti-bullying effort, pointless and satirical and ivanka's trump stated mission of being an ambassador for women a pointless joke. how could these women or any woman in the white house pretend they work for anyone other than a very loud mouthed and very thin skinned bully? it even shows bashi ining women alleged victim of a sexual assault, is more than a quirk to trump's personality. it's a political strategy he thinks is a winner. >> professor blasey ford got before the senate and was asked what's the worst moment? she said when the two boys laughed at me at my expense. and then i watched you mimic her and thousands of people were laughing at her. >> they can do -- i well tell you, the way now-justice kavanaugh was treated as become a big factor in the what's gone

with the polls? >> do you think you treated her with -- >> i did. >> you seem to be saying she lied. >> i'm not going to get into if because we won. it doesn't matter. we won. >> the "washington post's" ashley parker tweets this today, "the real question, my question, at least, if any republican voters penalize trump this november for using language like this to denigrate a woman who accused him of an extramarital affair. this is the kind of language that's come to define trump's presidency and his party which elected and continues to support and cheer a man whose public insults of women have included miss piggy, miss housekeeping, degenerate, slob, pig, bleeding very badly from a facelift. not my first choice. low i.q. wacky. and, of course, look at that face, would anyone vote for

that? here to discuss today's developments and donald trump's brazen return to twitter tirade, some of our favorite reporters and friends. from the "washington post," white house bureau chief phil rucker. here with us on set, emily jean fox, senior reporter c eer "van fair." elise jordan. now co-host of the fabulous must-listen podcast, "words matter." presidential historian and author doris kearns goodwin. leadership in push leapt timetu. and david jolly, no longer affiliated with the republican party. let me start with you, phil rucker, what brought the president back to twitter, why did he go there with horse face, does it have anything to do with the insults stormy daniels had for him? >> well, it just may, nicolle. excerpts from stormy daniels' book came out a week or two ago. she apparently describes the president's manhood in pretty graphic detail in that book.

i'm sure the president's aware of that and it may have gotten under his skin. but, look, he had a lot of time this morning, free time, there's not a single meeting on the president's public schedule today, no daily intelligence briefing. no public events, no meetings that have been publicly announced. we know he spent a chunk of the morning up at the residence of the white house watching fox news. he had a number of tweets this morning. after a real stretch here where he was pretty careful and disciplined on twitter which is unusual for him. he was back in the fray today. going after not just stormy daniels but elizabeth warren with three different tweets about pocahontas. he's feeling a real pep in his step. the president is. he feels like he's had a victory with kavanaugh. that the crowds are big at his r rallies. he feels encouraged about the midterm elections. it'sing to reporters so frequently. he feels emboldened in this particular moment. as we saw today, he's kind of

letting his views fly with the stormy daniels insult that is sure to alienate a lot of voters out there. >> phil rucker, does the white house ever feel -- do they have a capacity for shame? is there any -- i guess by that, is there any awareness, any self-awareness that the first lady's, really her only public venture is this anti-bullying campaign called "be best"? i don't think i'm missing a word there. >> that is the name, "be best." >> e vuivanka trump's brand, i l think she thinks of herself as a brand, caters to and focuses on women and the empowerment of women. is irony dead at 1600 pennsylvania avenue? >> well, most of the people who work for president trump understand the irony and they see what's going on here. but does the president feel any shame? absolutely not. he's somebody who has never felt shame. and, frankly, it's one of the reasons why he gets into the mud pit with these fights. and will just take it lower and

lower and low r, he doesn't feel shame, doesn't feel embarrassed and thinks this is central and core to his political brand. his personal brand. it's one of the reasons he's such a brawler. one of the reasons why he thinks so many of his devotees stay devoted to him. >> so let's -- i'm embarrassed to do this with you here. we have to do this. this is not about a lawsuit. this is not about policy. this is not about respecting the women in your life enough to not totally debase and render meaningless their initiatives in mel melania's case the "be best" anti-bullying campaign, in ivanka's case, women's empowerme empowerment, whatever he mission is in the west wing. this is about someone who insulted a party of his bo of h guessing he associates closely with his ego. >> sure. this is striking at the very hard heart of everything that could make him feel like a man and make him feel powerful. that's probably one of the worst things you could do to a man like donald trump. it's interesting, there are people in the white house -- women often in the white house

who do not challenge him are treated better thann the men in the white house. saw that with ivanka trump, saw that with hope hicks, saw it last week when nickki haley stepped down from her job, no one got the treatment when they stepped down from the job. saw that with dina powell who would have been welcomed back with open arms. women who challenge him are debased, degraded and treated subhuman. they're compared to animals all the time. it's just -- this is the language that comes s out offe white house? is we shouldn't be visesurprise. this happens time and time again. this happens with men and women. how he talks about everybody. striking at this very critical moment where a journalist has likely been murdered by someone, a royal family, who he has embraced and his son-in-law has very personally embraced. this is what he's spending his time doing? >> my colleague said as i was walking up here, it's amazing to look at just a time capsule of the trump presidency, he has kinder things to say about mbs, who likely knew about or oversaw

an operation where a u.s. resident, "washington post" columnist, was not just murdered but likely dismembereded according to the turkish officials. and he has nicer things to say about the saudi ruling family than he does about a woman in america. >> donald trump relates to despots. he relates to their ruthlessness. their ultimate power. it's something that he is consistently envious of. just to go back to something emily said, i think it's good that we are still shocked and that we are absolutely appalled because this should never be normal behavior. it's not behavior that i would tolerate among a family member. it's not behavior i would tolerate in the workplace. and so why do we have to tolerate this horrible standard coming from the commander in chief? >> david jolly, i called a couple folks, friends of the president, who don't hesitate to say his conduct is appalling but chuckle and say, well, he thinks the kavanaugh thing worked for

him. where is the line, or are there no more lines? when any sort of decent person steps away and says, you know what, i don't just have daughters who are watching men and women in the workplace. >> that's right. >> who are aware of me. >> i have sons. i have sons who may model the behavior of the most powerful man in the world and call, you know, call someone in their class horse face and gets suspended. so i better step away from this kind of behavior. >> that's right. >> when will somebody do that? >> well, i appreciate in your opening comments you said neither men nor women are willing to call him out on this. the truth is within the republican party, there are no voices that will speak back to the president. look, foundation, we now this was the disgusting behavior of a man with anger and hate in his heart but you also have to look at the political strategy you question around this. the first strategy would have been to say nothing. it this case, in fact, vindicated donald trump in a way and suggested that avenatti filed what identify said from t

the beginning on the defamation case was a frivolous suit. avena avenatti, did he take advantage of stormy daniels, she and avenatti are financially on the hook for having lost this civil case. the second political strategy would have been if you're going to attack, attack avenatti, don't attack stormy daniels. what we see in his attacks on stormy daniels is at the heart of your very question which this is a man who has a history of replete with attacking women. and women who challenge him. it is a reflection of his own leadership and at some point, we have crossed that line, it's a reflection of trump's republican party as well. >> doris, is there any example of a president showcasing his denigration of women, his misogyny, if you will, like donald trump? >> i can't think of another time like this really when there's an indignity every day. not even we reached the bottom. we're swimming at the bottom. the thing that's inexplicable about president trump, in a moment of victory, it was a victory for him today, right, just as the kavanaugh confirmation was a victory.

why not be able to feel exhilarated about that and reach out to the other side? the kavanaugh accounts he went after her, went after the democrats. he said they were horrible, horrible people. it was all a hoax. today he could have said, i was right, this is a victory. instead, he had to go after her, again, the woman, again. it's almost as if the there's no joy in this man, no joy in the office, fulfillment of the office. it's only in the tfighting against somebody. that's when his adrenaline comes up. how can you be a president and not get the joy in the office, the fulfillment of what you're doing? there's something misses theing, something going on. as far as the country goes, where's our identity as a country right now? things are happening as emily said around the world. this is what we're forced to talk about because he set the bar. he made us talk about this. >> and there's so many examples, where we come on the air on a day when there are far more important things happening. this show, we are "deadline white house," we have to cover this white house, we have to cover what the president does.

this is what he did today. has there been any example in the history of our country of a president who doesn't accept the role of head of our state? >> doesn't understand that the president sets an example for everybody. it's the most -- teddy roosevelt said the most important thing a president can do is set an example for his countrymen. not the example of just winning with your party but pulling the country together and healing the divisions. i don't know that i've seen somebody intentionally do that before. it happens. some of them have divided the country. to want to do it because you win by doing it, you know, when he was asked about the mocking of dr. ford, he said it's over, i won, i mean, winning is all that matters. it's when both sides win that matter. that's what a deal is. a deal is a square deal for the rich and the poor. it's not a deal where it's pure nonsense unless he wins. we've got to think about temperament. temperament came up in the campaign then it floated away in the campaign. it's still the most temperament and character what we need to look for in a leader. >> phil rucker, the polls are not good for donald trump. despite the fake polls he tweets

about. among women, i believe among independents, more than 60% of independent women who usually determine the outcome of elections, they are the largest group i think of swing voters. 63% favor democrats. 62% favor democrats. what does this white house worry about, if anything, with the president turning harsher rhetoric on women, people that he, you know, his own constituents, than he does for dictators and authoritarian leaders like mbs? >> well, there is, by the way, concern in the white house and frankly within the republican party about the polls showing this huge gender gap heading into the midterm elections especially when it comes to the battle to keep control of the house of representatives. where so many of the districts are playing out in suburban areas. but what the president's trying to do politically is it's a base strategy. he's trying to give his core loyal diehard base supporters, the people that will stick with him if he shoots somebody on 5th

avenue as he has famously said, to give them a reason to stay energized, to be galvanized and turn out and vote in three weeks. i think it's one of the reasons why you see him using this really divisive language. whether it's talking about elizabeth warren, calling her a fraud and phony and pocahontas, going after stormy daniels by calling her horse face because she's an opponent of his in terms of the legal lawsuit. he's trying to give, you know, create a common enemy among his supporters. in terms of whether these supporters are ever going to pull away from him, he's had his language for years and never had consequences. made fun of carly fiorina's face and still won the election. "access hollywood" video, made fun of machado for gaining weight and still won the presidency. i'm not sure this is going to be any digit. >> the only thing i'll add, he didn't think he was going to win the presidency. >> that's true. >> he made the comments he was

so uncertain about his margin of victory that he did not draft a victory speech. he did not contemplate the possibility. it wasn't like he won by a lot. >> no, we should remind people that hillary clinton actually had 3 million more votes in the popular vote than he did. he won the electoral college. but more americans voted for hillary clinton. >> and we should let him go on thinking misogyny is a good strategy. i'm sure most democrats would like that. elise, it may be paying dividends. this is from the "washington post" today. "like the conservative tea party groups that rose up after barack obama was elected president in 2008 and that helped republicans retake the house and gain power in state legislatures in 2010, this new liberal movement has emerged largely outside the traditional party structure. it is led by hundreds of thousands of mostly white college educated, middle-aged women who trace their inspiration to the naug rinaugu women's marches in january 201 8 and ambitions grown amid a succession of disappointments with trump including over the confirmation of supreme court justice brett kavanaugh." that movement, the size and the electoral relevance of that group will be tested in the

midterms. >> and it's a blue wave that certainly seems likely to be successful in the house of representatives, in suburban districts, among college educated women. the question is, the senate is such an impossible map and in these red states where the kavanaugh fight played very differently than it did among educated suburban women. >> phil rucker, is there any plan to get melania trump or ivanka trump on the campaign trail to help maybe stem the bleeding among this group of independent women voters? >> you know, that's a good question. i'm not aware of any campaign blips that either is planning to do. i'd be very surprised if the first lady hit the campaign trail. ivanka trump had a series of events the last several months where she'll talk about sort of economic development issues or women's issues in some of these suburban areas bought they're not explicit campaign appearances. she's not headlining rallies, for example, or going door to door, stumping with individual candidates.

perhaps, she'll do that in the final days. but i'm not aware of a plan and, frankly, would be surprised if she did. >> all right. i'm going to give the last word on this block to stormy daniels who responded to the horse face insult with this tweet. "ladies and gentlemen, may i present your president. in addition to this shortcomings, he has demonstrated his incompetence, hatred of women and lack of self-control on twitter again and perhaps a penchant for bestiality. game on, tiny." requires no analysis or comment. i love these too much to make them do that. fim phil rucker, thank you for joining us. when we comeer and former lawyer is repenting by talking and talking and talking to robert mueller and by registering as a democrat in time for the midterms. we'll talk to one of the reporters who knows him best about his make-good strategy. also coming ahead, president trump continues to sow the saudi line, on the disappearance of jamal khashoggi. what's behind the two-track

presidency on this situation? we'll go behind the trump/kushner sa trump/kushner/saudi ties that may explain their close relationship. a former director of the cia weighs in on america's standing in the world as the president continues to trust the word of the world's autocrats and dictators over his very own intelligence community. john brennan weighs in. all that coming up. up

central to the stormy daniels saga we've been talking about is the president's former fixer, michael cohen, who claims to have arranged at donald trump's direction the hush money payment to daniels. he now appears to be trying to

transform himself from villain to hero. cohen is the latest member of the former republicans club. he's a registered democrat now. here's his message. "the midterm elections 2018 might be the most important vote in our lifetime. get out the vote, vote november 6th." while cohen's transformation has certainly been political, seems to be personal as well. new reporting from our friend, emily jane fox if "vanity fair," "cohen says he has regrets with his work with trump and capacity of a trump organization employee. . what you see now is a return to what he was before all of this one longtime friend told me. he's an open book and adamant to make it right." joining our set, betsy woodruff, politics reporter for the "daily beast." take us through your latest reporting on michael cohen. >> so michael cohen has -- he has said he has reregistered as a democrat. now, i will say he's been a democrat his entire life. he only switched party

affiliations in 2017 when the rnc finance chair said you are the deputy finance chair of the rnc, you can't be registered a democrat. he made a brief switch. and the president's a democrat, his children who serve in the white house are democrats as well. what's going on with cohen, he spent upwards of 50 hours talking with investigators and sharing everything he knows not only to the special counsel's office but to investigators in the southern district of new york and also the state of new york who are looking into trump foundation activities. so this is someone who once told me he would take a bullet for the president and is now spending as many hours as he can be investigators ensuring they know everything he knows about the president, his business activities and personal behavior as well. >> what -- a good point. donald trump, too, was a democrat. as he demolishes the republican party. david jolly and i usually have to remind ourselves that trump wasn't in the party when we were. but he seems to be trolling trump politically. by getting out the vote for

democrats. >> you have to understand, cohen can't really speak publicly much because he's waiting to be sentenced in december. so there are little ways i think make him feel a little bit in control and who he's saying privately to people, which is that he has absolutely no taste for anyone with the last name trump anymore. those subtle little digs he's able to say on twitter or perhaps spin himself in a very positive light, he's going to take every opportunity to do just that. >> so michael cohen joins david jolly in the former republicans club. you made it public, made it official, that you've left the party. you want to talk to us about that a little bit? >> sure, probably a very different journey than michael cohen. >> i'm guessing. >> the republican party, listen, i've been a member of the republican party since i was old enough to register to vote. obviously three years ago with many americans, i took to the house floor as a sitting member of congress. called on donald trump to drop out and have stayed on that message that i believe he's wrong for the country and wrong for the party.

nicolle, the inflection point for both my quwife and i, we le the party when we found out we were expecting our first child. obviously, you begin to study your associations a little differently. for us, obviously it was the imprint of donald trump on the republican party, what we talked about in the first segment. these flirtations with misogyny, race baiting. man of vacuous ideology, little conviction. the tone he's set for the party. it's greater than donald trump as well. look, the gop orthodoxy has gone so far astray from the jack kemp days when i joined the party where we embraced this notion of equality of opportunity for all people. based on that foundation, we suggested rolling back interference from government. what we did in moving to a less government party is we actually removed all the proper tools that government can deploy to empower people, particularly communities that are less fortunate. we have contributed as republicans to an economic disparity, to an education disparity, frankly, to a cultural disparity among many of our communities.

what i didn't anticipate in leaving the party, though, which i really find relief in right now, is the rejection of partisanship. we are living in such a hyperpartisan world and there are roles for parties certainly we know that. but look, from george washington warning against factions, to barack obama begging to get us to a post-partisan world, we're not there yet. so maybe in an independent lane, i can contribute to that. i will say this. i did stay and fight for three years. a lot of people have said, what took you so long? i want our daughter to know that her mom and i stood and fought for three years for something we believed in. that the republican party could listen to better angels. but i also want our daughter to know, perhaps, through our example that there are fights at times, the wiser women and men walk away from. and this is a fight that i've chosen to walk away from. there are others that can fight for the dignity of the republican party. i'm excited about what the future holds as an independent. >> do you feel sad?

i feel unmoored. i feel cheered when people say to me, you're my favorite republic republican. i know it's intended as a compliment. feels like a lonely island that about a minivan full of us are lampooned on. >> yeah, not only is it -- look, it's lonely, but at the same time, i -- i know that i dis appointed former supporters of mine. republicans who gave their time and their talent and their money to support me who are now disappointed in me. and so i didn't make a grand announcement. we did this very quietly. specifically because i didn't want to throw sand in the face of those who had worked hard on my behalf. you know, but going back to having a child and what my wife recently said to me, she said she didn't feel like she had a voice in the party longer, any more, nor did she feel like the party spoke for her or our family's families. at the end of the day, we had to face a hard question about whether or not we would feel comfortable taking our new daughter to a republican rally.

i went to my first trump rally. i wouldn't want my daughter to be in that room. and it is a sad moment to recognize that. i hope to find inspiration in a political party in the future. and i would hope that it might be the republican party again. this is not a complete rejection of what could be. but for where we are right now, it's not a place that i want to call my political home. >> so this wrenching sort of civil war, if you will, that's going on in the republican party, is playing out in some ways in the democratic party. you got michelle obama sticking with when they go low, we go high. eric holder saying when they go low, we got to get down and kick them. where do you see both sides going in terms of what's pulling them apart? >> the general larger divide, and you see this both among democrats and among the republican party, is between people who focus more on sort of being part of the global community, versus the individual country, itself. and the republican party, this is much more pronounced. we see trump sort of moving back

from international alliances. we see him focusing on reinventing the nafta trade agreement. criticizing the united states' relationship with major trading partners particularly canada and the eu. with this focus on sort of america alone. and that's a key division within the republican party. you can pretty safely figure out where a republican is based on where they are on trade. it's a strong leading indicator of whether someone is going to be pro-trump or anti-trump. we see those same global economic issues also materializing on the democratic side. where on the one hand, you have folks like john kerry, the obamas who pushed very hard for more involvement in the world. particularly obama's advocacy for trade with asia. east asia. versus people like bernie sanders or other more left-leaning politicians who have deeper concerns about those international alliances. about the united states having an expansive trade policy. having a more energetic national security policy. larger united states presence in places like the middle east,

particularly syria. and that's a big divide that exists in both parties and it's something trump has been able to capitalize on. it sort of helps us make sense of why politics are working the way they are right now. >> have both parties ever been going through such internal -- i mean, turmoil is too weak of a word. they're really at war with themselves. has that ever happened in both parties at the same time? >> it certainly happened in the 1850s when the democrats were in turmoil then the whigs were in such turmoil and disappeared and out comes the new party. the real question, can they provide a story for people? they got a majority out there that seems to want to have this change take place. if they don't come to the polls, don't vote, it's a collective mirror on ourselves. republicans won the kavanaugh batt battle. not just getting him confirmed. they told a story that appealed to the base. the democrat s haven't been abl

to do that except for the gender problem. this may remind us of the gender thing. whoever tells the story, october is a really important time, there's of the bet been surpris. democrats, they want to wake up in the morning and not think about this sort of stuff. they want to mawake up in the morning when there's not a new scandal, wake up in the morning and have somebody in the presidency they can be proud of. normally economic votes would carry in a presidential lerelecn but in the midterm it's how you feel about the president that's important. if we don't have the other person out there who might be the president, imagine somebody that might make us proud again to be americans. >> do you think that it's a fair critique to say that democrats sort of realized their potential? you talk about -- 60% of americans don't approve of this president. do you think democrats have made the best use of the last two years? >> i'm not sure they have. if there's now some polls wondering whether these people are going to come to the polls, why have they not been energized all along?

the registration battle should have been going on. i think day have. if they don't, it's going to be the democrats' fault. this is theirs to lose and if they lose, it's going to be a reflection on them. they're not taking the reins when they have the potential. >> last word, elise. our friend and colleague, joe scarborough, tweeted "note to democrats, do your part in keeping the most disvici vicdi e figuring out of the news." >> it can't be that hard. >> help us help crew. >> it really gets our people worked up. to doris' point of telling a story, democrats haven't identified their story, donald trump is telling a story every day, a story you reject, a story david jolly rejects, a story i reject. he's telling that story. until in the absence of that, joe's point is referencing probably elizabeth warren yesterday. putting out the video about her 1/1,000th cherokee ancestry that became the source of the debate in a weird numeric race debate

and didn't really set the record straight about donald trump being mean and misogynistic to her and became a whole other issue into itself. i would say a communications and just political disaster. so that, if they can stop those bombs and just detonating themselves, maybe they would get somewhere. >> all right. i think it's jerry maguire, help us help you. my thanks to emily jane fox and doris kearns goodwin, whose new book "leadership in turbulent times" is a must read. when we come back, donald trump seems to be taking his side job as part-time spokesman for saudi arabia quite seriously. we'll show you his latest on--message defense of the kingdom. e defense of the kingdom. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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in today's coincidence news, just hours after trump floated the idea that "washington post" journalist jamal khashoggi was potentially murdered by rogue killers, it seems the saudi government is planning to give an explanation that absolves the

crown prince, mbs, of any blame. nbc news reporting the saudis will claim khashoggi did die in the consulate in turkey but it was an interrogation attempt gone wrong. a short time ago, trump checked in with secretary of state mike pompeo in riyadh, tweeting "just spoke with the crown prince of saudi arabia who totally denied any knowledge of what took place in their turkish consulate. he was with the secretary of state mike pompeo during the call and told me he has already started and will rapidly expand a full and complete investigation into this matter. answers will be forthcoming shortly." joining us on set now, former cia director, now nbc news senior national security analyst john brennan. we've been dying to talk to you about this for days. first, your thoughts on donald trump previewing the saudi line on rogue killers before even the saudis trotted that out. >> well, i'm sure that donald trump has been talking to his national security team and they've been floating ideas about what possibly could be the explanation for this. as well as what could be a

possible explanation of what happens despite the facts and the reality. so this idea of rogue killers have one that probably was bandied about. i don't believe for a moment the fact this took place in a mission in turkey and there were plane loads of saudis who went there. mbs, the crown prince, has a stranglehold over the saudi government's security and intelligence apparatus. i find it so farfetcheded that anything like this could happen without his intimate knowledge and approval beforehand. >> you're not suggesting -- former intelligence officials has said there's not much likelihood that his pdb said one scenario is rogue killers. you're saying that one of the explanations his national security advisers may have told him to expect from mbs was that it was a rogue element in the security force? >> yeah, i don't know what he was told by his national security team, by the intelligence officials that he's

been talking to, but i can imagine in conversations that this idea of rogue killers either as the actual reason, or as an excuse. >> right. >> is one that's been raised. >> i want to read you something that bruce ridell writes, murder in the middle east, for the last four years mbs ought sougsoughty himself, he allowed women to drive and open the country to concerts, wrestling and movies. the intense and expensive lobbying campaign worked with many and the prince was lauded from boston to san francisco. donald trump hailed him as a reformer before the u.n. the mirage is now shattered. the crown prince is a reckless and dangerous disrupter. he shakes down his subjects for their wealth, detains women activists who demand rights. mutes the former crown prince in house arrest and tries to bully countries from canada to lebanon. the pattern of behavior has been obvious for years but the veil only fell in istanbul." >> i think it can be both. i think he can be reformer as well as a ruthless authoritarian leader and he has done some

reforms inside saudi arabia in terms of allowing women to drive, saying movie theaters are going to open. limiting the prohibitions against the mixed sex gatherings inside of saudi arabia. i do think he has a vision. this his 2030 ambitious program to try to diversify the saudi economy, bring additional investment in and bring elements of saudi arabia into the 21st century that are not there yet. at the same time, he is somebody who is i would say drunk on power. he is very aggressive in terms of what he's doing. he has eliminated all rivals within the royal family. moving his uncle first out of the crown prince perch. then his older cousin. i think he has had this in mind for quite a number of years. he is the favorite son of a very senior prince, formerly, and now the king. i think he's been used to gettiget ing his way for more, many years. once he was able to consolidate power in his own anhands and r

remove rivals within the royal family, he was the one who was deciding he in deciding. >> you said he could be a reformer. the ruthless leader who carried out thus attack on the "washington post" columnist. do you think the reformer was spin? do you think that was presentation to win over hearts and minds andin hollywood. he invested in the biggest industry in los angeles. entertainment. to win hearts and minds in silicon valley where he made big investments in the tech industry. to win hearts and minds in new york's elite circles. to win hearts and minds in the white house which doesn't sound like it was particularly challenging with jared curber? and the president. >> again, i think it can be both. i think he firmly believed, i had conversations with him about the need to reform saudi society. so i think he was very interested in making some changes. that were fundamental to saudi arab arabia's future and trying to reduce the influence of islamic extremists within saudi institutions.

at the same time, though, i think he leveraged that as a way to appeal to those quarters that eye pointed out and tried to attract more interest in what he is doing. also i think it was a way to gather public support inside saudi arabia for his leadership. and so he was appealing to some of the younger segments within saudi society who saw him as reformer. and liked the idea of opening up some things. but he was very, very scrupulous as far as not ali liellowing th reform to go beyond what he wanted. that's why he arrested a number of these women activists. >> right. >> who were criticizing him for what he was not doing. >> who lobbied for the reforms he ultimately -- >> he wants to reform but wants reform at his pace and in his way. and in a limited manner. so that there's no opposition that can develop against him. and so these are all the traits of an authoritarian ruler. and he really did have total monopoly on military, security, intelligence powers within saudi arabia.

>> i want to stay on that because the people -- you've gotten more about the kingdom than any of us watching will ever know. the people he put on house arrest, the kinds of folks that the u.s. government, democratic and republican presidents work closely with. and they were largely in charge of security and intelligence, right? h is there any chance that if he jailed the previous people to oversee security intelligence that he wasn't intimately involved in it all security and intelligence operations like the one that resulted in jamal khashoggi's death? >> i, again, i cannot see it as possible that he was not the person who was aware of and authorized this operation. whether or not it went badly, and they weren't planning to kill him, i don't know, but for something of this magnitude going after a u.s. person -- >> u.s. resident. >> a journalist -- a u.s. resident. a journalist for the "washington post" at a foreign diplomatic mission. saudi diplomatic mission in the a foreign country. he should have realized -- i think everybody in saudi arabia

would have realized this is a major, major action. and i don't believe any of the heads of security services or intelligence services would have done this without the explicit direction and authorization from mohammad bin salman. >> i asked a former intelligence official why. he said because he can. is that your assessment? >> i think he certainly has felt emboldened over the past several years. he's been successful in consolidating power. he also is fetid. >> you feel like -- >> all these accolades wherever he goes around, europe and the united states. everybody caters to him. i think that has really inflated his sense of power. and felt as though he could do these things and also a very close relationship that he has developed with donald trump as well as jared kushner, i think he felt the u.s./saudi relationship could stand any type of little speed bump that this might cause. and i think he very badly miscalculated. >> do you -- why? you think donald trump is going to turn on him? how was the trump/kushner relationship a miscalculation? they got his back even as the saudis get ready to concede that

they may be responsible or culpable for khashoggi's death. >> i have great confidence in my former colleagues at the cia and the rest of the intelligence community to uncover what actually happened here. and although donald trump and others in the administration may try to cover it up, it will be up to the congressional committees to demand briefings from cia and others about what we know and what mbs' role was in that. i don't think, in fact, mbs is going to get o ut of this predicament. in many respects the saudi government has to decide between mohammad bin salman and u.s./saudi relationship and the u.s./saudi relationship has been fundamental to the kingdom for the past 85 years since its founding. >> got them through 9/11. >> it did. now the question, who can challenge mbs within the family? king salman who i always thought was a very fair and judicious individual, he had responsibility for meting out justice to royal family members

who did some things that they shouldn't have done and some princes were actually executed or imprisoned. now who within this environment of the royal family council is going to be able to be the independent voice that is going to be able to tell king salman your favorite son, mohammad bin salman, authorized this awful, atrocious and very reckless action that now is putting at great risk -- >> the relationship with the west. >> -- the relationship with the united states. >> can i press you on -- i mean, we've had so many conversations about congress not doing their oversight role. what gives you faith that congress and republican control will exercise their oversight role over the intelligence community and suss out what the intelligence community knew and try to isolate trump and kushner as outliers? >> well, identify heard now from marco rubio and lindsey graham and others, senior members of the senate, republican members of the senate, who are outraged and who are determined to get to the bottom of this. and so i do hope that they're going to draw the line at this

and hold not just the saudis and mohammad bin salman to account but also the trump administration and not get the saudis get away with what appears to be the killing of a u.s. person, a permanent resident of the united states, and a journalist for the "washington post," they cannot get away with this. i think that this is basically the downfall of mohammad bin salman. >> do you think donald trump is participating in a coverup? >> i don't know. i certainly hope not. and this is where the congressional committees of intelligence jurisdiction are going to be so critically important because they need to get to the bottom of what the intelligence community knows and i am certainly confident that my former colleagues at cia and others are going to speak truth to power here. they need to speak truth to the white house, but they also need to tell the congressional committees exactly what they know. >> tell the american people, too, i hope. >> i think ultimately this is going to come out, and it's very important for us to maintain good relations with saudi arabia. >> of course. >> if it's mohammad bin salman

who's the cancer here, we need to find ways to eliminate the cancer and move forward with this relationship that is critical to regional stability and our national security interests. >> thank you so much for being here. worth the wait. up next, the panel weighs in on all this, after the break. on all this, after the break ahh. where are mom and dad? 'saved money on motorcycle insurance with geico! goin' up the country. love mom and dad' i'm takin' a nap. dude, you just woke up! ♪ ♪ i'm goin' up the country, baby don't you wanna go? ♪

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everything in life is about giving back. you're only as good as what you leave behind, when you leave this world. ♪ trump going on the defensive this morning as the controversy around jamal khashoggi's disappearance continues to develop, tweeting for the record i have no financial interests in saudi arabia or russia, for that matter. any suggestion that i have is just more, wait for it, fake news, of which there is plenty. but it's not only the so-called fake news outlets that are drawing attention to his saudi connections. earlier today even the research team at fox news tweeted out a list. there it is. the panel is still here. this is a crisis that the white house may not feel today. the president obviously feeling, you know, a lot of swagger, attacking stormy daniels, attacking elizabeth warren.

but this could be a slow burn and really undermine everything he's trying to do on the world stage. that saudi bet was the first foreign policy they bet. this was the first country they visited. they know how to press all of his buttons. they projected his face on the side of a building. they have played him like a fiddle. if this blows up, i'm not sure what his foreign policy credential is. >> one of the most important indicators from today about the direction this is heading and the trouble this is going to create for the white house is the fact that lindsey graham, one of the president's favorite golfing companions, went on fox news and lambasted mohammed bin salman suggesting that he potentially needs to go, leave his position of authority within the saudi monarchy. a spoke with a person close to the saudi lobbying operation in washington that his clients were apoplectic when he saw senator graham made those comments. the saudis know the only show

trump watches is "fox & friends." the saudis are very aware of the fact graham is making these comments. does that mean the white house will shift its position on saudi any time soon? i doubt it. these relationships are just too close. the fact that the president has been a vocal defender to the extent that he can of mohammed bin salman over the last week or so is really telling. that said, graham's criticism is an important moment. the strongest indicator, if any, that things may be changing in the white house. >> elise, i keep thinking that you can't take the scandal out of the climate, and the climate is one where donald trump warmly embraces vladimir putin, duterte, mbs, dictators and authoritarian leaders, and trashes journalists. >> if i had to predict, i would say that donald trump is going dig into this, as we've seen in his initial comments about

trying to deflect from the assumptions of saudi ill. he has done the same thing with the russians and with the interference during the election. he simply digs in deeper and always is on the defensive for his despot pals. so i don't see that posture changing, especially given the unknowns when it comes to his financial dealings, when it comes to jared kushner's financial dealings. i did think it was noteworthy that jared kushner wasn't present today and he had mike pompeo absorb the brunt of having that visual with the saudis in the aftermath of this tragedy. >> david jolly, your thoughts on jared kushner and donald trump's business relationship, being part of this story, a legit foreign policy crisis for any white house. >> it's undoubtedly an influence. mohammed bin salman is the perfect corollary on the world stage to donald trump. they both emerge more as a political brand than they did because of their political leadership. to the point of lindsey graham speaking out, that is critically

important because lindsey graham is very close to the kingdom. lindsey and i met with the crown prince at the crown prince's residence in saudi arabia, along with two other senators and two other house members as he was ascending to this role. he was seen as this emerging western friendly brand of political leadership coming out of the middle east that we could work with. in reality, though, we have seen a continuation of abuse of human rights. we have seen yemen, we have now seen this, what will certainly prove out to be a murder that he had knowledge of. but at the end of the day, donald trump to the director's point has to choose between our relationship with saudi arabia or his relationship and jared's with the crown prince. that's where the tension will arise. the most dangerous thing we saw today, though, was this. an affirmation of the president willing to lie in moments of critical global national security. what he did by simply repeating the crown prince's talking points to the american people suggests that in moments of national security crisis, our

own president cannot be trusted. >> do you agree with that? let me just add to this, ronald reagan's version of this was trust but verify. other presidents have had healthy skepticism, even with countries that we must have a positive and productive relationship with. i mean where do you put -- where do you grade donald trump in his dealings with saudi arabia in the hours and days since we've learned of jamal khashoggi's death and disappearance? >> i think it's consistent with his previous sort of attitude on these things. first of all, deny any personal role or involvement. i wouldn't be surprised if mbs has been watching donald trump on the world stage for the past 19 months or so where you deny, deny, deny and go on the offensive. unfortunately for mbs at this point, i don't think there is an offensive that is going to be believable. that's why i think the outrage expressed by the senators, republican senators, graham, rubio, and others as well as everybody else who knows saudi arabia, knows the importance of it, they're not going to

sacrifice this very important bilateral relationship for someone like mohammed bin salman. so this is going to be, i think, a real test of this administration's ability to deal with a crisis. >> and tell the truth in the process. >> well, i don't know whether we can expect that at all, ever. >> we probably shouldn't for our own health. we'll sneak in our very last break. we'll be right back. st break. we'll be right back. your insurance rates skyrocket after a scratch so small you could fix it with a pen. how about using that pen to sign up for new insurance instead? for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise their rates

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