welcome back to "up." i'm david gura.

we are here every saturday and sunday from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. eastern time. new details this morning on the man expected of sending explosive devices to some of president trump's most outspoken critics. i want to start by going back to october 13th, 2016. >> the most powerful weapon deployed by the clintons is the corporate media. the press. and for them, nothing at all is out of bounds. election less than a month away and candidate donald trump was on his heels. the access hollywood tape was one week old. >> we will rise above the lies, the ludicrous slander. >> we know now in the crowd at that rally was a florida man who had been in trouble with the law before, arrested in 2002 from making a bomb threat.

you can see his progression from 2002 to 2015, a troubled life told in a series of mug shots. soon after, cesar sayoc who is now in custody and charged with mailing those pipe bombs became a donald trump super fan. here he is at that rally in a video he shot supporting then candidate donald trump. a few months later, he would travel to washington, d.c. to attend the president's inauguration. >> this american carnage stops right here and stops right now. in the months that followed, i started working as a deliveryman. he's beliefs seemly fully baked and very troubling. >> he was anti-gay, anti-black,

anti-jewish. anybody that really wasn't white and wasn't a white supremacist wasn't right. >> a lawyer that represented him in a previous case had comments. >> he's missing something. i would interpret that as he's suffering from one orrer more illnesses. >> we are left with a series of crews that paint a picture of a man full of hate who was drawn to president trump. he went to florida and in the crowd cesar sayoc was there. >>. >> people want to take back control of their countries and take control on of their lives and their family's lives.

sean hundred very a national security analyst for msnbc. pete williams joins us, as well. pete, what i was every dennering to do there is to give viewers a sense of the echo system in which this allegedly happened. of what interest is this going to be for prosecutors? >> i think it's probably second aerd. why he did it is important. what the authorities say so far is they have a fingerprint from one of the packages on one of the devices that was mailed to congresswoman maxine waters. two were sent to her, one at her d.c. office and one at her l.a. office. on one of them, they found a

fingerprint that matched fingerprint records. they also say there's a potential dna match on two of the devices, one which was found in a waters package and another in another office. and then they say there are surface similarities. and then, of course, the surface thing of his van showing all these stickers of opposition to the people that were -- these devices were mailed to. but in terms of his motive, why he did it, i don't know that they can ever prove that in some cases. all they have to prove to make the criminal case is that he did it. the why will probably be an issue in the trial and maybe there will be more focus on that. but for the law enforcement community, it's the what, not the why. >> people, help us understand how they did this and why they

did it so quickly. you were at the justice department yesterday. the attorney general spoke, but we saw representatives from law enforcement agencies there, as well. >> there is a lot behind the scenes here that is only now coming into view. i think it was slow to get started because nobody knew this was going to be a series of things. the first one was found at the home of george soros. somebody opened that package, saw the device, called the law enforcement people. and as they in the trade, they disrupted it meaning they sort of partially blew it up to make it safe. then when they realized packages were being sent to former president obama, hillary clinton and others, then it became a huge issue. and you had the secret service

involved. the first bomb is found monday and they have a suspect identified by thursday and arrested by friday. and, of course, one of the factors is they had so many of these devices that fortunate were not disrupted, didn't go off. so they were able to examine each one of them. i suspect they're not halfway done with that work at the fbi lab. >> and what is happening at this point in quantico or elsewhere? >> there's an overwhelming amount of evidence. you have these packages, the devices themselves. beyond that, you have multiple areas that are going to be searched. you have the van, any home he may have been in, his mother's home and elsewhere. you have people that will be

interviewed, coworkers, former employees, family members, etcetera. then you have the wealth of social media and technical evidence. one of the things i think is important to mention, there's been no indication so far that anybody else is involved. but if there was anybody else that he was engaged with through social media to see if there are others that share his ideology, that may have been talked to him about this, been aware of this, perhaps contributed to manufacturing these devices, the fbi is going to be looking at making sure there's nobody else out there, no other devices that can harm innocent people. from the legal perspective, what is happening at this point.? >> this is how cases typically

start in federal court. the prosecutors will file a complaint. then what they'll do is they will quickly present evidence to the grand jury and they will get to a point, i predict, before the preliminary hearing. and the preliminary hearing has to be held generally within ten days of the arrest. before that preliminary hearing ever rolls around, we're going to see indictments. we probably won't see indictments on all charges. they will select the two, three, four charges easier to approve. before that indictment, that establishes probable cause and does away with the need for a preliminary hearing. then what the prosecutors will do is they will be in the grand jury early and often presenting all of the information so they can return what is called a superseding indictment, fancy word for a second, more complete indictment. and that's the path that i expect this prosecution to take.

>> how much does this, for example, help you looking at that van? >> i feel conflicted, i'll say that. even just watching the opening segment of your show. thankfully, it's a situation where nobody got hurt. all of these packages were intercepted. they were given over to law enforcement. but we spend too much time looking at the motives and looking at this person and how they became such a troubled individual, what it was that led them to go astray. here i feel like we're almost doing the same thing. and, of course, we all want answers. but i think that the undercurrent behind all of it here is that politically people want to find someone and something to blame. and we need to obviously acknowledge that the president of the united states has certainly nurtured an

environment of division in this country. definitely not something that he created, but he has used it to his advantage. but i think we all need to step back and think about culturally, what is happening in this country. where are we where people have so much hate where they are allowing political divisions, partisan divisions to get to this point where people might want to inflict damage on others. >> one of the things that -- i want to go back to part of your open with his boss, the pizza delivery boss who was like, on oh, yeah, we all knew he was racist and homophobic, but he still had a job. >> there have been several outlet that's interviewed this woman. what came across in one of those interview sess basically a good man is hard to find. we couldn't fire him despite all of these warning signs, what was on the car, because he was capable of delivering pizzas tos those who want them. >> honestly, when the pizza man comes to my house, the kids act

like he's santa claus. and he can't get fired from his job? it goes to where we are with our culture. this is where i say if we're going to blame somebody, i'm less concerned about the president and more concerned about all of the people in this man's life who knew that he was a racist and said nothing, did nothing. y'all know who the racists are in your life. they're out there. you go to dinner with them. you have thanksgiving dinner with them. you see them at the park. you say nothing to these people and you put it on people like me. you put it on african-americans, minorities and other vulnerable communities to have to speak out against these guys when they're in public driving their, like -- driving their steve bannon mobile down the street. it's not right. it's not fair. what we need is for the other white people mainly in this man's life to look at this man and say what you're doing is not acceptable. no, you can't deliver pizzas for my company.

that's what we need. >> what's your counsel on that point to both of you who have been in law enforcement, been federal prosecutors? when something like this materializes, it's striking as you read this chronicle, how many people did turn a blind eye? >> i think it's really important. we talk all the time about the public has to come forward if they see something here. these people that are engaged in this type of violent activity, it just doesn't happen overnight. and when you start to see a change, and we've seen this historically with past bombings, with violent shootings, somebody who is disgruntled, they start to talk in a stronger language where it's going to flip into a violent action. there's speech issues and i certainly don't condone hate speech, but there are certain issues that are constitutionally predicted from a law enforcement perspective, it's very difficult to sort out what some people might say is noise to something that is illegal. constitutionally protected

versus illegal. that requires the public coming forward to try and help put those things together. >> the constitutionally protected is great, right? but when the man is driving around with a van that has targets and bulls eyes on our prominent politicians, that's a problem. i understand he's been arrested many times. i suspect the way they found this guy was because his fingerprint had been taken so many times and it was in the afis database that is available to all law enforcement agencies around the country. that was probably the first hit they got and the first way they knew who it was that was behind this. but, you know, this constitutionally protected speech is important, but this man was virtually announcing his intent and his motive by what he had plastered all over that van. and i think we need to pay more attention to that and not always hide behind the first amendment.

>> one last thick, though. the problem is those stickers exist. those posters exist and a lot of people have them and not every single person in a steve bannon mobile is going to end up sending bombs. that's what i meant by we need to sit back and look at the larger cultural issue and look at what is going on. >> i agree. but communicating a threat is a crime. and i question whether putting hillary clinton's face on the side of your van with a big bull's eye over it is not communicating a crime or something darn close. >> we'll come back in a moment. sean, henry, thank you for joining me. the rest of the panel will stick around. coming up, persistent conspiracy theories and how to tie him to the fringe. theorieso tie him to the fringe.

though we're stinl analyzing the devices in our laboratory, these are not hoax devices. >> fbi director christopher wray trying to put an end to the conspiracy theory that has been raised, quote, fake news, fake bombs, who could possibly benefit from so much fakery? rush limbaugh is not backing down after the arrest of the

suspect, rush limbaugh is casting doubt on the suspect's van. >> none of the stuff on that van, the stickers and the decals, very little of it looks faded. meaning it doesn't look like it's been there very long if these stickers are plastered on the insides of the window, there would be some fading. >> well, he, the sticker expert was not alone in trying to tie the van to the false debunct series. >> man in van look like created by hollywood was tweeted. joining me now is touray. let me turn to you first here. suffice it to say, there are millions of people who listen to rush limbaugh on a daily basis. >> the right has been on this anti-fact thing for many years

now. the president was a birther pushing this notion that was based on absolutely nothing. that's been consistent of the right for a while. there are so many things that they believe that are based on no facts at all. so that they are basing it on these theories, i would imagine it would be difficult to say that this person who we thought very little about, they say nothing because they were afraid of him and now the -- i mean, they understand this is going to make somebody freak out. bernie sanders was not telling people go harm people. trump has been saying that consistently for years now. obviously, something eventually is going to happen.

>> a line is the solution to this is this is not going be technological. yes, this permiates social media spheres, but it has to be cultural. which do you think is more difficult to change? >> changing the culture is a lot harder and i don't have a lot of hope that we're going to do that. so i go to facebook and i go to the instagram and i ask them to stop promulgating this the crap. they are the ones who are in charge right now, right? we have exceeded our media discores distribution to twitter and facebook and whatever. they're private companies and they don't have to respect the first amendment the way the fbi or the cia has to, right? so they have more power and control to stop this stuff, to put an understand to this stuff

if they want to. it's not in their business interests to do that and that's why it permeates. the people we keep seeing are the ones that social media keeps afflicting with. i would ask them to do something about the crazy people that they promote on their platforms. >> but that also is a bit of a whack-a-mole platform. you can shut down one broadcaster on one platform and they'll find another way. >> they'll just find another pile of manure to -- >> another social media outlet will pop up.

it's a very hard to find that right balance where you want them to be more responsible, you want them to very much be alert on who it is that they're allowing to talk, but we're also like, okay, go ahead. we're just handing over all this power to them. >> i promise you i spent more time in twitterville than donald trump has, which is a problem, right? >> yeah, but -- >> but this is part of the normalization that we've leapt right over. of course trump is not going to change so we have to look at other things. he is the president. he is the center of the problem. it's not -- it's an asymmetrical

problem. if we don't lay it at the feet of the republican party, we are letting them get away. >> i want to ask you about the words in this document in this day and age. this is the affidavit. 12 pages long. the words are clearly different to people across this country. what does that mean for law enforcement that you have the kind of doubt we've seen extended to something like this. >> let's be clear. that criminal complaint is a sworn affidavit the by an fbi agent that these are the facts that we've found so far in this early stage of our investigation. what i'm most troubled by, we've heard people say we're in a post accuracy society. now we're moving into a post evidence society. when i see rush limbaugh say something like you know what? those stickers don't look faded enough. bill and hillary, you know, snuck out and stuck them on the -- and maybe obama was the getaway driver. but here is the problem. some people will buy into that. as 30 years as a prosecutor, i've heard every defense attorney argument at least

twice. that's exactly what i thought of when i he heard rush limbaugh. it's like if there's one eyewitness to the document, if there's one eyewitness, they're going to say you know what? not enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. if there is a videotape, it was doctored. the if there's no dna, we demand dna. if there is dna, the police planted it. people are believing this nonsense. i don't blame defense attorneys for saying it in court, but when it so saturates our public psyche and we begin to believe, notwithstanding all of the evidence, fingerprints, dna, he's announcing his beliefs on his van. this is really, really troubling. >> let's leave it there. up next on "up," late night finds the dark humor embedded in the headlines for the package

bombs. we'll have that when we come back. we'll have that when we come back ...for that, and just a second, we also have the mendez mediation. brian is going to take the lead just follow his- hello. uh, no i need it right now. yeah... success is a numbers game. and you're not going to win if you keep telling yourself to wait. the more often that you choose courage, the more likely you'll succeed. the most inspiring minds. the most compelling stories. download audible. and listen for a change. download audible. ♪ ♪

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...trump's efforts to kill the affordable care act." california news papers endorse dianne feinstein for us senate. california values senator dianne feinstein welcome back. there was a tweet from a president a moment ago.

he's retweet ago story from breitbart news. trump thunders at media for smearing his supporters after bomb scares. late night comics still managed to find the funny in the so-called package bomber situation, especially when the suspect's identity was revealed. take a look. >> he thinks trump is the greatest human being ever to live and, of course, he's from florida. the explosive device sent to cnn has a get 'er done note on it. come on. >> is it possible that these people ordered pipe bombs on amazon and just forgot? if because that happens to me all the time. >> cnn got one, george soros,

robert de niro. meryl streep was snubbed. me, nothing. look, that's good. i'm -- yeah, but i heard he was thinking about it and it's -- it's an honor just to be nominated. >> your reaction to that? is there any humor to be found in that? >> my reaction -- you play a bunch of comedians. and i hate to throw the cold water. this is terrorism. we don't usually joke about terrorism in this country. these are attacks on civilians with a political message meant to silence them and others who agree with them. that they didn't go off doesn't make it better. i mean, like, we had a terrorist

act on this soil that just failed. the president is not acting like that. the administration is not acting like it. >> i think it was trump who the press conference in the white house was laughing the other day when one of his supporters was saying lock him up about george soros, the guy that just had a bomb sent to him. so i'm with you there. i feel like there is this weird disconnect that we're having because none of the bombs went off, thankfully. but it's making people not treat it as seriously as it should. >> no, i'm all for the human therapy. part of it is nervous laughter. like people are going to process fear differently. i process my fear with lots of jokes. as i was trying to think through what could be happening. so i'm not going to dog people who process their fear

differently. the other i think useful thing about the humor is i do think in this situation where we're so at odds looking at each other and we're so angry. it's important to remember that the people who do this the are small punk cowards who can and should be mocked. mocking the small punk coward is a way to make us feel better and a way to remind us that most people, most of the time, are not like this. which is, like, helpful when people are trying to sleep, right? >> yeah. i think gallow's humor is a relief valve. all i kept thinking is when we saw bomb after bomb failing to detonate is thank god this the guy is just as incompetent as he appears to be when we see him now. he either didn't know what he

was doing, and i strongly suspect when you can't spell florida you probably can't assemble a bomb well. unfortunately all over social media, there are recipes for bomb making. it's no harder than making chili if you just follow the steps. this guy couldn't even follow the steps. so he is both a criminal and an idiot. >> from cold water to chili. thank you. we'll be back. if you have psoriasis, little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats moderate to severe plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla,75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment.

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welcome back. it appears that cesar sayoc was fixated on the mayor of tallahassee, andrew gillum. he reportedly slammed gillum for being a socialist and a failed mayor. he tweeted 22 images of gillum since monday. that twitter account has since been suspended. the florida governor race has gained national attention. the current polling average shows gillum edging ron desantis by about 4 percentage points. those in president trump's inner circle says the president is worried republican losses in florida could dash his hopes for re-election so he is headed to the swing state on a, quote, political rescue mission in the

coming days. eli, i'll turn to you. >> to get back to one of your earlier points about letting the republican party off the hook, i'm not letting the republican party off the hook. the republican party is not in my you view the cause of racism in america. they are the beneficiaries of racism in america. the florida race is a perfect example where an andrew gillum said it to desantis's face. the issue is not whether desantis is a racist. the issue is that all others think desantis is a racist. >> we're going to play that. >> first of all, he has neo-nazis helping oat out in this state. he has spoken at racist conferences. he's accepted a contribution and would not return it from someone who referred to the former president of the united states as a muslim [ bleep ]. when asked to return that money, he said no. he's using that money to now fund negative ads. now i'm not calling mr. desantis

a racist. i'm simply saying the racists believe he's a racist. >> continue. >> the republican party has been using these dog whistles to inspire these people to come out and vote for their candidates since at least 1968. and the only thing that is different in the trump era is that he swallowed the dog whistle. he turned the dog whistle into a megaphone and all of his republican friends are following along. but the tactic here is to scare up whites, usually southern, usually male people, scare them with racial politics and use that to motivate and to go support republican policies that they can't actually point to on a map. most of these people don't -- most of these people want pre-existing conditions covered, right? but they're going to vote against that because of the racism. the racism in the republican party is a feature, not a bug. and they are the primary beneficiaries of our strife. >> about this growing quilt of

racism in this election, you look up to georgia, you're seeing robo calls, similar ads playing out. your reaction to this, what we've seen there and also just the cultural and political import of this race in particular. >> i mean, as you were saying, trump has shown that this sort of racial fear continues to work. some people might have thought after the election of obama with, this is not going to work any more, but clearly it does still work. and this appealing to the fear and the lizard brain of certain people really works, really activates people. people will forget about the kitchen table issues which are fundamental to their lives when they are afraid that a black person might come and kill them, right, or harm their wife or something. so then i'll vote for anybody for any reason who will protect me from that, the whole boss hog sort of architect type. we see it in the south, but clearly we see it throughout the country here and there. it's frightening that the black

male body can still be used as this political football, this boogeyman to scare people into a certain way, voting against their economic interests in many cases. but we're still here. lee atwater would be so pleased. >> perhaps he might. about what i said at the top there, the president seeing a need to do some triage in florida looking ahead two years from now still. what does that say about the role he's playing in this campaign generally as you watch him crisscrossing the country, going from state to state to state. about his effectiveness as a campaigner, as somebody who has successfully galvanized his republican base. >> he's somebody to your point, too, yes, republican politicians have been using race as a dog whistle and for decades. but what donald trump did even before he started campaigning, before he became president when he was pushing further conspiracy theories is he used the election of the first black president to then the ferment

more of the us versus them. it's something he just keeps going. ron desantis said andrew gillum is monkeying up the election and donald trump is still supporting him. so the president continues to send a strong message with the people that he chooses to go out and campaign for and with and support throughout these midterm elections which, again, sends the message. what are the priorities for this president? >> he told you, he's a white nationalist. he was quite clear about it. >> he's saying it much louder than anyone else has. >> in the time that we have left, let me ask you about immigration. part and parcel of this as he continues to talk about the cara van making his way up a thousand mile journey. >> fear of the brown people coming to steal your jobs and create crime in america, that is exactly part of it.

i mean, at times, the run party is located around black people, willie horton, around times gay and lesbians looking to get married. immigration is part and parcel of that. white people, be afraid of this other. and we have a massive terror plot going on right now that we're trying to figure out in america and we are concerned about four or five thousand poor people who want to come and pick our grapes and clean dishes in our restaurants? this is not an invasion. these are migrant workers who want to come and do the work that none of us want to do. but we're afraid of that. and fox news is helping them and making this a major part of the media agenda, which it should not be. immigration, i'm sorry, is not a major issue in america. it is a major political issue, but it is not a major impact on 95% of america. >> jump in here quickly, if you would. we're looking at another legal battle that will be set up on the border. >> and unfortunately, hate sells.

hate unifies. that's what we've seen. we've seen it from day one when candidate trump came down the escalator, we're all about to head down. and he put the muslim ban in place. i'll tell you, these the were folks who were fly around in airplanes who had done everything our country asked them to do on the immigration front. their papers were in order, so to speak. and they land expecting to embrace their loved ones and they get detained, that's not what the country is about. but hate does unify and motivate. >> we'll come back here in just a moment. up next, they were crazed over her e-mails, but what his phone or phones, i should say? here is stephen colbert. >> okay. he's not using his unsecured iphone. he uses the government one. except, and this is real, right in his own tweet is the tag twitter for iphone. come on.

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. they didn't actually care about it. if they did, they would be up in arms right now about the fact that the chinese are listening to our president's unsecured iphone which he leaves in his golf cart. >> but her e-mails gives way to iphones. a report by the "new york times" puts the president may be putting the country at risk by using an unsecured cell phone. the report says russian and chinese spies are listening into trump's conversations. president trump tweeted a denial of this report from his iphone. i have to put up a great cartoon in the "new yorker" this week. i know this doesn't play well on tv, but making fun of this. you have a bunch of russian and

chinese spies listening into the trump conversation. his burger was undercooked, he's co playing golf, and now complaining about the "new york times" article on his cell phone. barack obama loved his blackberry, and wanted to keep his blackberry in office. and now this is worse than that, three iphones. >> the guy is a fool. we're down to that. once a day it's like you got to be kidding. he doesn't read the presidential daily briefing. all the things available to him to gain more knowledge, to have a better chance at doing the job well, not giving away the store. you know, he just won't -- i'm sure there are people who told him, sir, you know you can't do that. he's like, no, i just don't believe what you say unte jen

intelligence professional. here we are. >> glenn, were there some rules when you were at the agency? >> i thought back when we would run wires, title threes which would basically let you wiretap criminal organizations. >> not the oval office. >> no. there's something called tickling the wire. that means law enforcement -- >> this is a family program, glenn. >> law enforcement would intentionally inject information into that sort of series of phones they were surveilling. so what i thought of, the president is now being surveilled by the chinese. he doesn't seem to care. maybe the law enforcement fr mm professionalsp providedipr providing inaccurate information. it's called tickling the wire. >> that's why the "new yorker"

cartoon is so pertinent. what could he be saying on there? he constantly changes his mind. inconsistency is a key issue of this president. if his own staff members are selecting what he reads and sees, hopefully those buffers are working. >> trump is a hypocrite. >> oh. >> every single person who participated in the lock her up chant is a hypocrite. every conservative media pundit whoever came on one of these shows and said you know, the hillary clinton e-mail stories are important, hypocrite. the 11 billion hillary clinton e-mail stories and gave up one trump iphone story are hypocrites. they need to figure out how they'll apologize to america. i'll take a taco. others may want a starbucks gift

card. they need to get to the and figure out what they'll do to make up for it. what we have -- what the times report shows in stark detail is that every single hillary clinton e-mail story was hypocritical, both sides ridiculousness. >> wow. >> lastly to you. >> how do i follow that? >> i want you to. what do we take away from this? is the lesson about the apparatus set up around him? >> the guy is clearly doing this all by himself. not taking anybody's advice. not taking information from other people. and the hypocrisy, but her e-mails was a thesis for the campaign, and now we have this. thank god we survived having hillary in constant candle. that

skapda scandal. that's what we have here in spades, and here we are. >> here we are. thank you all for being here. coming up next on "am joy," bish shol wiop william barber w joy reid for some common sense at the end of a chaotic week. so no one else has to, get home for dinner and feed the cat. you did a million things for your family today but speaking to pnc to help handle all your investments was a very important million and one. pnc. make today the day. do you have the coverage you need? annual enrollment ends december 7th. don't put it off 'til later. now's the time to get on a path that could be right for you... with unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans.

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"am joy" starts right now. as the attorney general confirmed, we arrested cesar sayoc in connection with this investigation. we're still analyzing the devices in our laboratory, these are not hoax devices. today's arrest doesn't mean we're all out of the woods. there may be other packages in transit now. other packages may be on the way. so we need the help of everyone out there, every citizen, everyone in law enforcement. everyone we got to help with this investigation in the days to come. >> good morning. welcome to "am joy." well, this week, we witnessed an unprecedented act of terror. threats of assassination by a bomb sent through the mail directed at two former presidents and two first ladies, one of whom is a former secretary of state. the former vice president of the united states, the former attorney general, three members of