as the attorney general confirmed, we arrested cesar sayoc in connection with this investigation. we're still analyzing the devices in our laboratory, these are not hoax devices. today's arrest doesn't mean we're all out of the woods. there may be other packages in transit now. other packages may be on the way. so we need the help of everyone out there, every citizen, everyone in law enforcement. everyone we got to help with this investigation in the days to come. >> good morning. welcome to "am joy." well, this week, we witnessed an unprecedented act of terror. threats of assassination by a bomb sent through the mail directed at two former presidents and two first ladies, one of whom is a former secretary of state. the former vice president of the united states, the former attorney general, three members of congress, the former director of national intelligence and the former cia director, a prominent

actor, two billionaire fill lan t fill lan tlo pphilanthropyists. all the mail bomb targets, and there were four as of friday had one thing in common, they have been frequent repeated targets of attacks by the president of the united states. on twitter, at his constant political rallies. where his supporters chant lock her up and worse at anyone who displeases donald trump. let's take a moment to remember how that sounds. >> maxine waters. that's a real beauty. >> very dishonest person, crooked hillary clinton. >> isis is honoring president obama.

he's the founder of isis. >> cory booker. he destroyed what he did. he was so bad. >> we call him 1% biden until obama took him off the trash heap, he couldn't do anything. tough guy. >> cnn is the worst. you ever see when the fake news interviews them. they'll go to a person holding a sign who gets paid by soros or somebody. >> he went after christians, he went after our great evangelicals, the tea party people. >> i think brennan is a very bad guy, if you look at it a lot of things happened under his watch. i think he's a very bad person. >> president obama along with brennan, clapper, the whole group on television now probably getting paid a lot of money by your networks. >> we know social media pages were littered with attacks on democrats and liberals. and he was videotaped at a trump rally earlier this year. if this was a normal presidency

the president of the united states would not only condemn these attempts to terrorize fellow americans, praise the law enforcement agencies, vow that justice will be done. in a normal presidency the president would also presumably contact the targets who again include fellow presidents. he would express genuine outrage at this attack on our democracy and free press and try to sound a wake up call that there's something toxic and dangerous going on in our politics that he, as the one leader elected to represented the entire nation, wants to lead the way to change. but this is not a normal presidency. this is the presidency of donald trump. go after a couple of c condemnaticondem condemnations went right back to attacking the media. >> i'm pleased to inform you that law enforcement apprehended

the suspect and taken him into custody. i get attacked also. you get attacked. i get attacked all the time. i'm just thinking -- come to think of it, who gets attacked more than me? i can do the greatest thing for our country, on the networks and different things it will show bad. >> that was a white house pep rally if you can believe it for young black trump fans. there that was after the suspect was caught. before he was caught this is how republicans characterized the mail bom mail bomb attacks. >> wouldn't it serve your purpose if you're a democratic operative to make it look like the republicans are a bunch of insane lunatics? >> there could be some democrat, low-level person -- not suggesting anyone at the top, but just decided, you know what? i'll put this out. two weeks before a major election who will look like the bad guy here? the republicans.

>> lou jobs, james woods, it's not just alex jones, it's rush limbaugh saying this is a fake, it's a stunt, everyone agrees. >> joining me now is howard dean, former vermont governor. jill winebanks, john harwood, and malcolm nance. everything about this presidency is unusual. we say it probably every weekend. what is more unusual is that we have a president who, you know, he did the condemnation in written form. he read it out of the prompter. but he immediately goes back to attacking the very people who were under attack. he doesn't contact the former president. he doesn't do any of the normal things that a president would do. what does that say to you? >> well, it tells me he has no interest in the role of being president of the united states. he doesn't. he's not worthy of the title.

in fact he is actually working against the interests of the united states. let me put this -- as a counterterroism professional, let me put it to you this way, this nation sustained a terrorist mail bombing campaign this week. the only reason that we don't have postal workers or individuals who the bombs were sent to injured, wounded or killed is because the bomber was too incompetent to actually produce an effective device. but they were real devices. the fbi says they were real devices. viable enough to kill had they worked. so this nation went through a bombing campaign. the person who sits in the chair of the president of the united states does not have the decency to work with the potential victims. which tells you should there be a real extremist -- right-wing extremist bombing campaign in this country that is effective he still won't care. that puts us in our own form of

crisis where a president of the united states refuses -- refuses to defend the constitution of the united states. which means if there's a real crisis we're in serious trouble. >> you know -- i agree with that. it's jarring, jill. we only had 45 presidents, right? it is a very small club. the idea that any of the previous 44 would not have immediately picked up the phone and called the living presidents who were on that list. you know there have been a few presidents assassinated. i can only think lincoln where there was a wide ranging conspiracy to not only assassinate lincoln but decapitate the federal government. this was a wide ranging attack that targeted the top former leadership and current leadership of the democratic party. for the president of the united states to not even call any of them, to not express outrage on behalf of these former

presidents and the others, was it as jarring to you, having seen nixon up close. i would have imagined he would have called. what do you make of it? >> i think any other president would have acted in a different way. it's not just what he didn't do or what he did do in terms of his tweets, it's that he has no comprehension of the danger that his words have caused. anyone who thinks that his saying let's fight the protesters, let's beat them up. those things have consequences. it's time for us to hold him accountable for what he's saying. he's not only not doing the right thing by calling and saying what can i do to protect you, you're one of that small club of former presidents, former cia, you are a current senator, you are a possible

candidate for president, we need to protect you. he doesn't. he makes it about himself. he's blaming the press for taking away the momentum for republicans to vote for selfish narcissistic and makes everything about him instead of thinking about or having empathy with the people who have been threatened by this. it's not just the people who were actually receiving the bombs, but think of all the postal workers who touched that, who could have set it off, who could have been injured. there's a whole host of people who might have been injured. patrons in the post office if it exploded there. it's abysmal. >> it is. john harwood, you've been tweeting about this and the fact it does point out a stark -- it is unusual. everything about it is unusual. i want to play an october 6th rally, this is before any of this stuff happened.

but trump says he's not responsible at all for anything that happened. he takes no responsibility. in fact he is still attacking cnn. he blames the media for everything. this is at one of his rallies on october 6th. let's listen to how the audience responds to their leader. >> the radical agenda of nancy pelosi and chuck schumer. [ boos ] and the legendary maxine waters. >> shoot her. >> shoot her. that's what they yelled in case people couldn't hear it. john harwood, the president of the united states says he is not responsible even though he says i will pay your bail if you want to commit violence at this rally where i am. i don't get it, do you? >> i get it. the president of the united states for the reason that jill just said a moment ago does not care about other people.

he cares about himself. the ecosystem that he leads as the republican president, the leader of the republican party is out of touch with reality and that's why you see a political campaign where most of the arguments they're making about immigration, about taxes, about healthcare are false. and it's encapsulated by the way he won the nomination in 2016. think about the relationship between now president trump and ted cruz. during the campaign, president trump was saying all sorts of ridiculous things trying to win the nomination. ted cruz would say i like donald trump. he didn't want to talk about him. he thought he would lose. when trump beat him he said the president was a narcissist and amoral person and a pathological liar. now what's happened, the president has been elected.

ted cruz is right back in behind the president. they had a rally together this week. that tells you there's an entire party that is advancing and running on things that are not true and you have a president of the united states who cares only about himself and other people and not willing to stand up to them. >> howard, i want to play this. let's look at the profile of this person. he has been charged with five federal crimes. florida is a state that deprives principally men of color and people of color of voting rights. this guy did vote in 2016. he's been known to law enforcement. he faced a florida bomb threat charge in 2002. he's a florida resident. originally from new york city. registered republican. this is the more eerie thing about him. this is a sound bite from his attorneys -- the attorney for his family. he sauce in donald trump he

found a father. take a listen. >> they also had what i considered lesser iq, substantial emotional problems. he was like a 14-year-old in an adult's body. it's my opinion that he was attracted to the trump formula of reaching out. trump reaching out to these types of outsiders, people who don't fit in. people who are angry at america. this was someone lost. he found a father in trump. >> that is creepy, howard dean, for someone to think of a president as their surrogate father. you are the only person on this panel who ran for president before. there used to be people called deaniacs. people loved howard dean. i can't imagine you, howard dean, when you had that power over a group of people, particularly young people, to say i will lead you guys in this

direction. i think you should hurt my opponent. i'll pay your bail. i think my opponents are evil. they're the enemies of the people. you understand the kind of power a political leader can have. what do you make of the way this president uses his power? >> the reason this is complicated, and the reason that i had power and trump has power, people give you that power because they feel trapped or inadequate. when i ran, the problem was the democratic party was basically supporting the republican agenda and i wanted to stand up for the democratic agenda, which was against the war in iraq. what trump does with the power that people give him who are frustrated, angry, so forth, he turns it to evil. that's the problem with trump. i don't know that he intends to do evil. i think he's so screwed up

himself, he is a narcissist, so he has a giant cult. he also has a party that knows very well that he is a giant cult, but is going along with him because in the short-term that's their way to power. that's why the republicans sold out america. when they fail to stand up for a guy who is clearly unfit to be president of the united states, because of the fear of their own political careers, they have sold america out. and the republican party has become a drag on the greatness of america not something that will make america great. this is a low point in the history of the republic. it's not just because trump is a cult figure, it's because his own party will not call him out on it because it's in their short-term interests not to do so. it's going to cost the party a lot of -- cost the country a lot of pain. it's going to cause even the people in this cult even more pain because they're weak, they're fearful to begin with.

that will not get better under donald trump. >> amen to that. my guests will stay with us. i want you guys to listen to donald trump's rally last night addressing one of the would-be victims of this serial alleged mail bomber who was a devotee of his. >> max seine waters. maxine [ boos ] i will be nice tonight. i won't say it. the media has a major role to play whether they want to or not. [ boos ] i'll say this in all sincerity, but the media's constant unfair coverage, deep hostility and negative attacks -- you know that -- only serve to drive

people apart and to undermine healthy debate. y debate

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group to create hysteria and play on the hearts and mines of those who are independents and undecided in midterms. >> there's an old saying that history rhymes. republicans false flag claims that the targets of the bail mom were spo bomb were responsible for the targets was jarring but not unprecedented. terrorism in the 1960s included bombs on buses and churches. in 1963 the responding of the bombing of the 16th street baptist church in birmingham said of the uncaught perpetrator that he set back the cause of the white people there so dramatically as to raise the question of whether, in fact, the explosion was the act of a provocateur, or a communist or of a crazed negro. like i said, history crimes.

my panel is back with me. it was not just commentators on fox news to try to kill federal postal workers and kill two former presidents and another dozen people just to make the republicans look bad. this filtered from there on down. let's play this cut. this is a supporter of donald trump putting forth his own personal theory as to who did these dbombings. >> hillary clinton probably sent hers to herself. >> you don't think this guy sent these bombs? >> no. probably not.

>> why? >> they probably had it done. they may have paid him to do it what would be the upside of that. >> trying to bring people over to their side. >> and against trump? >> yeah. >> one more. here are several prominent republicans who had other people to blame not saying that president obama sent mail bombs himself, which is interesting. here's a set of republicans in leadership positions with their theories. >> i think the media focuses on the president. >> the media plays a role in this process when 90% of the coverage is false. >> malcolm nance, that's right-wing media, right wing conservative leaders and down to

their base. i feel like we are able to look at this as the duarte regime. is that off base? >> no i'm disgusted this morning at listening to these people. i have it all over my twitter feed, people coming back saying he was a crisis actor, this bomber. i will say this once. as a counterterroism professional, we were attacked this week. if it had been a member of isis this nation would have been panicking. now because it's a person who comes from right-wing extremism, the same branch that brought us timothy mcveigh, they want to pretend like none of this happened? anyone who says this wasn't a real attack, you are betraying your oath to the constitution. you are acting in an un-american fashion and you are allowing other people to believe they can

carry out this type of attack. this is support of terrorism when you don't call it out for what it is. these bombs were viable, real, they were attempted murder on american citizens. we don't get the select in who we want to protect. we protect all americans. clearly on the trump side that's no longer operative. they are choosing who they will protect and defend. which means that their oaths of office are inoperative. >> jill, this was shocking. this was an attempted -- had any of these, one of these devices gone off, this was an attempted mass murder through mail bombs of former presidents, former heads of the cia, dni, former

members of congress, this is serious. the way it's treated on the other side is the tit-for-tat, being rude to someone in a restaurant. i find that shocking this is not being treated as the terrorist attack it is. it is shocking to me. is it to you? >> it's shocking to me and it's terrifying to me that we are all listening to this now and all the people listening to your show right this minute are hearing the facts and understanding them. but the problem is there's a good percentage of america who is listening to info wars, listening to fox news, they are getting these conspiracy theories. they believe those theories. they are not questioning that there is not one shred of evidence, not one that would support that. there's nothing that would make that true. people have made them up to get ratings on their television or their radio shows.

and then the people are believing it. people are going to go to the polls and vote believing that possibly a democrat did this to make it look bad for the republicans? that's so absurd. people will go to the polls believing when donald trump tweets i will protect pre-existing conditions, the democrats will take it away. that flies in the face of every piece of evidence of what donald trump and the republicans want to do. yet people will vote with that misknowledge. that's propaganda. that's what happened in nazi germany, that's what happens in other authoritarian regimes. people do not get the facts. we need to protect the first amendment. the first amendment does not allow you to yell fire in a crowded theater. it doesn't allow donald trump to say beat up those protesters or i applaud you for body slamming a reporter. that is not covered by the first

amendment. this is a danger to democracy and everyone that we stand for in america. >> yeah, john harwood, the calls are coming from inside the building in the white house. candice owens, an organizer of that weird pep rally yesterday where black trump supporters were hooting and hollering where trump was making an announce about this arrest. she was the organizer of it. th she tweeted before this person was caught saying i will go ahead and state that there is a zero percent chance that these packages were sent out about conservatives. the only thing suspicious is their timing. then she brings up caravans. fake bomb threats, these leftists are going all out for midterms. that person organized a pep rally inside the white house.

>> joy, she's just illustrating the fact as i eluded to earlier, there's an entire political ecosystem that depends for money and votes and livelihoods on alarming people, frightening people, with things that are not true. it's not a coincidence that one thing we're seeing in politics is a stratifycation of education. you look at a key dynamic in the election, it's white women with college educations flocking towards the democratic party and republicans trying to gin up margins among white men without college educations. those people are receiving these messages from people like candace owens, sean hannity, rush limbaugh, people who either

delawsu deluted themselves, and the republican establishment depends on those people for votes. >> howard dean are there enough people on the other side of that equation to put some balance of power in washington so this ideology, which infiltrated which used to be the mainstream part of the republican party and us merged it with the fringe, is there enough people to switch that? >> these young people are not with this nasty authoritarian party that the republican party has become. they're not. many of them voted for a centrist democrat. they are sick of this. they're realizing as of 2016 their vote con votrols their

future. if we fail, they have no future. they know it. i think we'll do well. evil lurks in the hearts of men. it does whachlsdoes. what trump tapped into is evil. eventually we'll overcome that. republicans are all about the past and fear of the future. democrats have made plenty of mistakes. they are about making america a better place. in the end hope wins over evil. it takes a long time. both of those lurk in human kind. that's what this struggle is about. it's a struggle about good versus evil. the president of the united states is evil. >> indeed. i'll give a quick shout-out to the weekly standard. they did call out the conservatives. conservatives policing their own. that's part of what it will take. i'll give a shout out to the weekly standard. jill, what's your pin? >> a blue butterfly because i'm hoping that we will take flight

with a big blue wave. >> all right. >> get out the vote. >> all right. jill, howard dean, thank you. up next a look at history of political terrorism in america. we are the tv doctors of america, and we may not know much about medicine, but we know a lot about drama. we also know that you can avoid drama by getting an annual check-up. so go, know, and take control of your health. it could save your life. cigna. together, all the way.

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coming up, a few pages from our nation's dark history of domestic terrorism. that's next. terrorism that's next.

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they died in birmingham at the 16th street baptist church rallying part of the negro drive in the nation's most segregated big city. dynamite exploded killing four little girls in sunday school,

injuring 20 other negros. >> the 16th street baptist church bombing is one act of terrorism that rocked this country in the 1960s two months later the country's solve would be tested again after president kennedy was assassinated. joining us now are our guests. clint, i'll start with you. for a lot of people they write off someone like this as merely crazy. this person took the time to find out the middle name of former vice president joe biden, to find the addresses, locate the addresses of george soros, the clintons, the obamas. where are we on the spectrum on whether this is a fanatic drawn to donald trump as a father, as the lawyer for his family says, or what is it about? >> one thing we have to remember, this goes back to the al qaeda islamic state, there is

always a debate in the media was this person mentally disturbed, part of an extremist operation or a believer in their own and took up the fight on their own. you can be mentally disturbed and also in pursuit of violence on behalf of an ideology, race, religion, sociopolitical. you can be on both of those spectrums at the same time. we consistently fall into this how we distinguish on if its terrorism based on whether it happens internationally or domestic. if you look at international terrorism, that goes across the national security guidelines. that dictates that. foreign terrorists being designated by the state department. it's messy inside the united states because now we're talking about criminal code and how they're charged. that's one complication we encounter with this debate. >> if any of these devices had gone off, if it had killed a federal postal worker or any of

the people who were targeted, then he's timothy mcveigh. i wonder why we have such a problem just immediately designating this as terrorism. it was designed to terrify anyone who was a democrat. anyone who worked at cnn, most of the people i know were afraid to open their mail. >> one thing that we consistently rush to do in the perspective of any of these investigations whether it's international or domestic is people want to know is it a workplace shooting or terrorism? is it a mentally disturbed person or terrorism? you're seeing the u.s. institutions do the department of justice and the fbi, they're going to do the initial charging they need to do to get the person off the streets, to get the person so that they're not in a place where they can do more violence then expand their investigation. if you rewind back to march of this year, we saw the austin bombings in texas. again law enforcement got into a weird spot where they were asked to declare immediately is this terrorism or a hate crime or is this some sort of just other

violent act. and they initially declared it not terrorism. they went back and revised their estimate. i don't think we're to the bottom of this yet. part of the challenge is we want law enforcement and the department of justice to say immediately what this is. they're trying to be cautious to make sure they're staying within those guidelines. >> richard, what we do know is that whether it's dylann roof who went in and targeted black church-goers, we had a shooting at a kroger where the gunman said to a white people outside, white people don't shoot other white people, he targeted two african-americans. this person hated democrats, liked pages talking about killing george soros, and the attorney for his family said he saw donald trump as a father. talk about the idea. it is not abnormal in american history for some in political history to inspire political an

mous animous. >> i think trump has unearthed some demons, to use the words of mark sanford of south carolina. he has given people a license to act on their worse instincts because of his incendiary rhetoric, his attacks on political centness, and horrect attacks on the media elites so we're dealing with a fraying of the social norms. that's why we've seen a big increase in hate crimes since the beginning of mr. trump's candidacy. that's why we've seen a big increase in the number of hate groups since mr. trump's candidacy. i don't think we've seen anything like this from an american president at least in my lifetime. >> does it strike you as sort of -- george wallace never made it into the white house, but there's something about him that feels similar. does it to you? you're right. wallace was a demagogue of the first order. he talked about america first,

similar slogans like that. he didn't ever get very far on the national stage, but in my homestate of alabama he absolutely inspired an enormous amount of political violence including what you opened with, this bombing of the 16th street baptist church in 1963. >> absolutely. sarah, it's interesting because donald trump mirrors an international version of this. he's openly calling himself a nationalist. openly inspiring violence at his rallies and he says i won't back down. i will keep attacking people who received or attempted to have these mail bombs sent to them. >> yeah. that's very typical. trump acts as an autocrat, and autocrats spread conspiracy theories, lies and delusions. it's key that the public buys into the delusions, builds on them and feeds on them. it's not just a mindset, it's a movement. that's what he's doing now.

there's an unprecedes dencedent of inevitability about this. he has no concern for the american public. he has no concern for political opponents. he sees them worthy as being murdered. he has no sense of the sanctity of human life. that's a dangerous situation. we had terrible politicians, we certainly had a history of terrorism, domestic terrorism in the united states. we have not had a president that contributes to that. and that's the danger we have now. >> donald trump seems to think he needs to keep stoking this. >> in our society, the media is one of the ways he can do this by airing the rallies, by not correcting lies. by doing the sort of both sides narrative. it feeds into that. it legitimatizes it. it's important that we as a society reflect on our values,

reflect on our patriotism, reflect on what is the sanctity of human life and not normalize it, not justify it. he may hold that office. he may be sitting in the white house, he's not behaving as the president. anyone who thinks this kind of violence is acceptable no matter what party they're on or what justification they have, they're simply wrong. that's the way you fight back. >> really quickly, we had this debate inside on this show with our producers, we don't open with trump sound and come back to break with it because there's a question of when you play it are you just furthering, it feeding into it. can the media do better by not playing so much of trump? >> absolutely. especially if you play it without rebuttal. you're advancing usually that narrative. you're also ceding the stage to him by letting him set the agenda for what the issue is. he will oftentimes do this. he will create an illusion, let's say the migrant caravan, now we are debating about whether there's a migrant

caravan, and that reinforces that there is one. oftentimes we are creating this monster media narrative for him and we have to watch out for that. the key thing that i'm looking for this week is in every example in history that i remember in our recent past, it may have taken us a long time to mobilize around it, ultimately political leadership in the united states put country over party, people stepped together. you had people emerge to lead the country forward. this is different right now because we have a president who is not trying to bring people together, he's not trying to actually make sure that everyone is taken care of and everyone is safe. he openly says that. how will we do this? who will step forward? i'm confident as americans we can do this, but this is an interesting conundrum because this extremism when played out by people in power has a long lifetime. we need to think about this, particularly based on an election here in the next two weeks. >> absolutely. thank you very much to all of

our guests. we do have breaking news we're following. police in the squirrel hill neighborhood of pittsburgh are on the scene of a posibsible active shooter situation at the tree of life synagogue. more on this breaking news story after the break. up next, we'll be joined by bishop william barber. stay with us. barber. stay with us prevagen. healthier brain. better life. pai'm open to that.medicare? lower premiums? extra benefits? it's open enrollment. time to open the laptop... ...and compare medicare health plans. why? because plans change, so can your health needs. so, be open-minded. look at everything - like prescription drug plans... oh, and medicare advantage plans from private insurers. use the tools at medicare.gov or call 1-800-medicare. open to something better? start today. open enrollment ends december 7th.

i know it is hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. it is all part of the process of discovery. it is all part of taking a chance of expanding man's horizons. the future doesn't belong to the heart fan fainthearted. it belongs to the brave. >> we are a nation of strong values and our government is doing everything we possibly can to protect the lives of our is the citizens. i've updated leaders and we reaffirm there are no republicans or democrats, we are americans united in concern for our fellow citizens. >> that is the way presidents of both parties normally respond to a national crisis. words of comfort, security and unity.

joining me now is bishop william barber. good morning. and i wonder what it means to you as a moral leader in the country to have a kin that doesn't have a moral leader in the white house who can do what we just saw. >> well, it is disturbing at the highest level. we have not seen as one of your commentators said this kind of attempt at sigh mull continmult assassinations since the night lynn conditiincoln was assassin. but there is a scripture in the bible that says it is not what goes in a person that defines them, it is what comes out of their mouth. so we've known for a long time based on what comes out of trump's mouth that there is a disconnects, a willingness to win at all costs. he couldn't even say their names. but this is not new. we've seen this. and what is disturbing about it

is not just mr. trump. where are the so-called white evangelical preachers that say there is too far, where are the congressional leaders and statehouse leaders and the people in crowds that won't cheer this stuff? we have a tremendous problem with in issue. >> and instead you have a president openly calling himself a nanagsist -- nationalist. >> and it has meant that we hate others. it is not patriotism. martin luther king was a patriot because he loved the country enough to criticize it. and the hymns say we must call the nation to amend every flaw. and george wallace if you remember now, he you spewed spe his hate and by the end of the

yeerd four gir year four girls are dead and the president is dead. but dr. king said -- and let's me read this to your a audience. he said they have something to say to every minister of the gospel. they have something to say to every politician who has faired his constituents the stale bread of hatred and spoiled meat of racism. this is a form of political mental illness to think that you can continue to say this kind of stuff and demean people and be so derogatory and to call people evil and hateful, that somebody eventually is not going to act on it. dr. king knew it and we must know it. >> eventually even george wa wallace figured it out that it was wrong. >> and we knew something ugly

was coming the moment a person is annual to come down and escalate -- an escalator and first thing they do is demean and call mexican people crooks and evil and rapists. this vitreal has to be stopped. and we have to rise up with our mobile shaigs aization and soou say no to this. this is quocwrong for our count. >> please vote people. always a pleasure. thank you very much. and we have much more a.m. joy coming up including the latest on the breaking news reports of an active shooter in pittsburgh. stay with us. orn. man: tom's my best friend, but ever since he bought a new house...

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i want to unipdate you. there is an beingactive shooter synagogue in pittsburgh. andcouraged to avoid the area. we'll try to get you information as we can. these are pictures, we don't have a ton of information, so i guess that i will try to give you what we have. we do have from the mitpittsbur

department of public safety, there is an active shooter in the area of at kins and shady. so avoid the area. more information will be given when available. and let's bring in jim cavanaugh. in a situation like this, what should people about be doing if they live or work in that area? >> frirs, listirst, listen to t commands. they will be backing neighbors off the street. and you have to listen to them. stay in your home if you are close. listen to police orders. if persons are inside the sin goi -- synagogue, you get out if you can. if you can't, barricade the room, turn your phones down, be quiet. these things normally don't last that long. the police are swarming the place. you fight if you have to, but if you ccan flee, you flee.

but if you can't, you barricade. if you can't, you fight. so pay attention. if you can send quiet text messages to the police, that is a good help too. >> and listen to whatever you are hearing from the police. i want to just pause for a minute. the network is joining us. we'ring joininge being joined y network. if you are in pittsburgh, please follow law enforcement instructions. this is a shooting in the area of a synagogue. the local cbs affiliate is reporting that there are people dead. we don't have that confirmed yet, so just giving you what we have. we know that it is in squirrel hill, pennsylvania. that is near pittsburgh. and i'll read to you from what we have. police across the city responding to an active shooting

situation at the tree of life synagogue in the area of squirrel hill in pittsburgh. you can see the police response 2 there on your screen. we're waiting for more information to come in. jim cavanaugh is still with us. we're also being joined by clint watts. and we just heard from jim what people should be doing. how do these investigations unfold? >> and i'm sure what the police will locally are trying to do is secure the area and make sure that anybody is in the area is out of the immediate response and into a safe zone. the other thing that we've learned through the years is that the best approach to this is to make smure that the activ shooter is apprehended as quickly as possible. and so they tend to close in on the situations much closer if they can.

it sounds like just from reading some of the news reports that this quickly escalated into a shooting scenario and i think that you saw some of the law enforcement there sprinting to the scene. so it will be curious to understand kind of how this played out. it looks like they are still securing the area now. and it is also going to be one of those things where you are going to see i'm sure many more people show up to secure the area and respond. it looks like it is local police have responded quickly there. but in terms of motive and those sorts of things, that comes much later are. i'm sure they are trying to limg nature t -- eliminate the threat to anyone in the area. and so i hope that people can shelter in place and let the law enforcement professionals do their job. law enforcement has dedicated a tremendous amount of energy in the last decade to how to respond to these events. and we're seeing the effects of that training right now. i'm sure that they are doing a

great job about getting to the scene and securing the area. >> and obviously this is a place of worship, a synagogue in the pittsburgh area. but you also have a residential area as well. so you are talking about people who are in theory at home. it is after all the weekend. so talk a bit about what people do. you are in your homes. do we have a situation where people are locked down, unable it leave t it -- unaebl to leable to leave and you can't get home? >> it totally disrupts the neighborhood. i've worked many of these. we had a case years ago michael edwards smith outside a school was going to go in and shoot them up. it was enter ruchbted by einty

citizen. they are subject to attack because you of the white hate in the country that has been here a long time. and synagogues get attacked. i mean we've had recent attacks in kansas city. look, pittsburgh had three police men killed by a neo-nazi. he was on the storm front website just hours before he killed those three pittsburgh officers in 2009. he was a very anti-semitic guy. this stuff can get really bad fast. but if you are in the neighborhood, stay tight in your house. if you are trying to get in, just reach your family by phone. you can't breach that police line. you got to wait. the officers are trying to locate the shooter. number two, isolate the shooter. number three, evacuate people nearby the shooter. and number four, limit natu--

eliminate the threat. so they want to locate him, isolate him, they want to evacuate and eliminate the threat. that is s.w.a.t. right there. they are geared up. and they are going to where they think they have the shooter. and if you are in the neighborhood, if you see the shooter or you know where the shooter is, if you are close, quietly text 911 or the police or somebody to tell them where he is, what he looks like. they need the information. law enforcement needs to know where is the shooter or shooters. if you have any information, you need to convey that. stay barricaded. don't come out even if something tells you to come out unless you are absolutely sure it is law enforcement. make no doubt. if there is any doubt, don't come out uchnless you are sure. >> and we know in the case of

the marjory stoneman douglas shooting in south florida that was so shocking to the country in parkland, the shooter actually came out with the students. he blended in and was able to walk out of that building and i think that he was later arrested near a mcdonald's. he was able to get away. how do law enforcement ensure really who they are even dealing with particularly if the shooter -- we should make the point we don't know anything about this alleged shooter in pittsburgh. but how do law enforcement tell whether they are dealing with a shooter or the victim if the person disarms and tries to blend in with the victims? >> all s.w.a.t. officers and negotiators, we all train on all these type of things. all these scenarios. there are many historic cases officer the yearsperson -- perpetrators have trird ed blend in with hostages. so that is pretty standard. they have put on hostage clothe,

tried to disguise themselves. s.w.a.t. knows all those tricks. that is why you see people come out all with their hands up and have to be searched and put in a saefr holdi safe holding area. so they are trying to make sure that you are not carrying a gun and they will sort that out later. sometimes that hams. it is not the rule, takes great poingreat -- it is a great are point. it is not the rule. more often you will get in a gunbattle with the guy or they will kill themselves or is there more than one. when you get into white hate conspiracies and my owe naziw n can have more than one actor. so that does ramp it up here. so this is the type of claim that is not a workplace vi

violence. there could be more than one shooter here. more than one attacker. >> and just to update those who may be just tuning in, we are following an active shooter situation, we know there are casualties and nbc news has not confirmed how many. so we're not reporting on that yet. but there is an active shooter in the area of wilkins and shady. if you are in the pittsburgh area, it is near a synagogue. the read of litree of life syna squirrel hill. local news is reporting that there is an active shooter and there are casualties. you see the pictures on the left there, local news reporters in the area. and let's bring in malcolm nance. this is coming at a timing when the country is already on edge. people afraid to open their mail because we just saw a situation, a mass mail bomber that was operating in the country, a man

out of florida who has been arrested. do these things have that kind of a -- sort of one inspires the other? we don't know again that this is a hates crime. we know it is near a synagogue, we don't know anything more than that. but just yourself as an intelligence officer, what does it tell you that we're seeing such a rise in incidences that are frightening and -- again, we don't know this is tied to hate, but it has frightened us in that particular way. >> let's step back and take a look at this situation from little that we know. and i've been reading feeds coming in since the first moments of the report. and today is the sabbath for the jewish religion. so going to a synagogue, it will be -- it is like going to a full church on a sunday morning. so whoever the shooter is that is in there, we don't know what his confession is, what his political motivation is, but the target itself tells me a lot about the mindset of what this person wanted. he wanted to hit jewish people

on their sabbath where they were con gra gregregat congregating. as jim has said, police will be taking precautions based on the active shooter campaign. first they will immediately engage. and we understand that the police may have been engaging the shooter from the beginning. what little we know is that the shooter has entered and shot some people. and we've seen reports that he is still engaging from an upper floor. i've already seen three different sniper sections heading out to this place which tells me that they are in a standoff where they need long rifles to put this person down before a s.w.a.t. team can engage. that being said, i don't know whether i have a terrorist hostage barricade right now or whether i just have a domestic shooter who is in their carrying out an attack on individuals. and those two things -- and this immediate point, it has to be dealt with differently.

if takit is a test, this could become a suicide hostage barricade where he has no intention of leaving that building or leaving people in that building alive. and we've seen that before everyone in the united states. but if it is just a guy who is disgruntled neo naznazi, the sa thing can happen. and i think that we'll have an extended operation. i don't think that they will negotiate their way out of this one. whoever this individual or individuals are, they came in for -- they came into kill and now it is a situation where, you know, pittsburgh police are going to have to decide whether they will force his hand. >> so just on to -- just to up indicate everyone, there is an active shooter. this is nearby carnegie mellon university. and it was on lockdown with students receiving texts telling them to stay inside. you can see that this is a

residential area. so we do want to caution anyone in that area to please stay indoors and follow law enforcement instructions. we'll take a quick break and we'll let our stations across the network join us. msnbc's alex witt will pick up our coverage in a few minutes. i'm alex witt and we're following a breaking news story here in pittsburgh. there are reports of several dead, shot at a pittsburgh synagogue. we are watching this very closely. it is an understandably confusing time. there are various reports on the numbers. we do know that the area we are

looking at in 9 piin the pittsb pennsylvania area. it is the squirrel hill area. and again reports that there are multiple fatalities here. whether they aare inside, outsie the tree of life congregation has yet to be made officially clear. but we are trying to get all of the details for you here at msnbc and let you know what is happening as we try to put these details together on this sabbath morning for those who would be inside that synagogue. i'm joined by malcolm nance. and let's get your insights into probably the derivation of this. it is a hirteightened time in society. how much do you believe that that may be a contributing factor to this terrorism that question are s we are seeing unfold this morning in that. >> it is possibly a contributing factor. the reason that i say this, i know that guys like clint van zandt and clint watts and jim

cavanaugh will back me up, we often see these incidents occur in pairs or threes. and there is a saying that the second attack is always an american if it is an international type attack. but people like to -- terrorists and people who aspire to create a high visibility incident, they want that visibility. they want to actually be there and in the face of the community. terrorism itself, i don't care whether takes hait is a hate cr not, when you create a hostage barricade, you are committingen an act of terrorism. you want the nation to have all eyes on you for whatever your personal or political motivation is. and the only factor we're missing here is what is the motivation of the shooter. right now we know number one his motivation was to kill jews in their place of worship on the day of the sabbath. we could branch out to 100 different places as to what that

person may be up to. but it appears that we are in a barricade situation and that the police and s.w.a.t. are taking precautions to contain it. >> i want to bring in jim cavanaugh. jim, i'm looking at some information we've been getting of a news website that says that there are those inside who s complained that there was an active shooter in the building and according to the pittsburgh police dispatch, it said that second call said that they were definitely being attacked and came in, that they have shotguns about th possibly as many as 20 to 30 shots have been heard. and again this is at the tree of life synagogue.

definitely one down and of course several people in the building with services there. and let's talk about what law enforcement will be doing right this moment. certainly they have to keep themselves protected from somebody who may have a shotgun, but talk about the initial reports and the reaction from police on the scene. >> they moved quickly. the training is to move quickly to the point of engagement with the shooter. they want to get to an engagement point, to locate the shooter or shooters and to engage. s.w.a.t. comes on behind that. patrols first to arrive. we call them s.w.a.t.-like. then you get to the point where

maybe they can't advance anymore and so s.w.a.t. comes in. and we made i hamay have a barricade, shooter at a high point. so this is a very exacerbated situation. and i agree with malcolm, i mean you can think about any kind of motive, but when you think of an attack on a synagogue, i mean i can go back personally in history for 40 years having been to so many attacks on synagogues and houses of worship and churches and i can tell you who has done them. and i've arrested them, i've arrested them in the act of doing it. we've caught them, charged them and in america historically it has been neo-nazis, klans men. worldwide, kaal qaeda attacks worldwide. jewish interests are always

attacked by terrorists as well. but generally launching attacks on jewish houses of are worship. i said earlier to joy, also one of the differences that you get in an attack like this, if it is groups like i described, you can get more than one shooter or bomber or killer or actor. you get more than one because it is not necessarily a disgruntled person who is mad at the congregation, which it could be of course, but when you start getting into multiple people, shooters, you know, that is a conspiracy of hate, a conspiracy of anti-semitism like malcolm pointed out exactly right, it is the sabbath on saturday, so that is where the people are gathered. that is where the attack they want to make. so initial blush would be that. s.w.a.t. is there, on scene command is there. we're in the hearing any gunfire. that is a good sign. but does that mean that the shooters are isolated inside the

synagogue somewhere and do the shooters not have access to anymore victims at the moment. and if s.w.a.t. can keep them skane contained, if they are contained, then that is the best remedy. >> and right now being withabab look at the dispatch, it would seem officers came under fire as they came on the scene as well having to use their cars for barricades and protect protection. and there are reports that two police officers have been shot. are a me in rehema ellis has phoned in, she is familiar with the area. you know the squirrel hill area. talk about the community. >> reporter: this is a densely populated up scale beautiful community actually. i used to live there in pittsburgh for sefrveral years,

not far from where this incident is occurring. it is densely populated. and it has a large jewish population. and as you have mentioned, this is happening on their day of worship. so i suspect that it would have been crowded today. i don't know that for a fact, but i would think that it might be. it also is a community where you have single family homes, mostly single family homes. and it is in an area that is there is a lot of business, restaurants, schools in the area. and it is a heavily populated and very popular section of the city of pittsburgh. it is one of the most popular communities in pittsburgh. i used to spend time myself there. and it is a place for entertainment and also a wonderful place for people to live. >> we know in the wake of i

guess the tenor in this country, there are many churches which have taken to actually having members of the congregation be armed and standing vigil at the door. it is a remarkable time to say that is indeed the way congregants in different communities feeling. did you ever hear about anything like that for the tree of life congregation, was there any indication that any of those in the squirrel hill community felt that they may come under attack at some time and have taken measures to, you know, keep themselves safe? >> reporter: i can't speak with any certainty about that. but as you point out, the tenor of the times, that communities and churching all across this country are taking precautions. and we've seen it happen here in new york where i live now when you go past synagogues on a saturday like today, there is security in place.

i don't know what the situation was there in squirrel hill, but it wouldn't surprise me if people were on guard. particularly as you point out that think of what we've been going through this week in this country. and where there have been suspected explosive devices that have been picked up in several places here in new york city, but also people across the country have been on alert, on high alert. so i think that it is something that lot of people are thinking about. >> and as we see what appears to be s.w.a.t. team even potentially members of the military being do he employeplo. and we're getting word that the nypd is joining efforts in containing the situation. let's know right now to the local reporter from wpxi, we have david johnson on the scene for us. let's take a listen to what he is doing right now, he is interviewing people in the community. right now to david johnson. >> -- three officers who have been shot. and at this time we have no more

information because we're still clearing the building and trying to figure out if the situation is safe. if there are anymore threats inside the building. but the shooter is in custody. we have multiple casualties and three officers shot. thank you. >> mr. mayor, can you add anything? >> we'll wait until -- there is still a lot of information that is missing. we'll wait and get everything. we want to be sure. sorry. >> and as we said, these are always very chaotic and dangerous times. we are update wlag we've heard, that three police officers have been shot. we don't know their condition are nor the condition of anybody who may have been sht inside. there have been reports of fatalities, but those numbers have yet to be confirmed. the president has commented. let's go to kell i oy o'donnell. >> reporter: and the president has used twitter to comment on this and he did it in an

unusually fast time frame given the way these events are unfolding. the president tweeting that law enforcement is on the scene of course, things have developed. and he also states looks like multiple fatalities, beware of active shooter. god bless all. we just heard the update that the shooter is now in custody, but the president was talking about multiple fatalities. and the president's tweet indicates watching the events. so i don't yet know if he has had a specific briefing. always the situation room is made aware of these kinds of crises that erupt. that is occupied 24 hours a day. the president is here at the white house and he is expected to depart within the hour for two big events today traveling to indianapolis and then later to illinois for a rally. we don't know if his schedule will be changed because of this or if there will be any alteration to his plans. we also don't know if the president would be available to comment about this on camera. we are here and we'll be looking

for that. typically in a situation like this, the president may wish to comments once facts are determined. we know that the president has been calling for civility and a level of change in tone at the same time there are many who have been criticizing him for the way he has conducted himself in this political environment. so the president has also been very dehe mondmonstrable praisi law enforcement. and clearly with the report of three law enforcement officials, flee poli three police officers being shot, this of course will raise to the president's attention. so we will be watching this. again, the whougs would be mondbe -- white house would be monitoring and able to provide resources from the federal government as well as being in touch with

local officials and law enforcement. so we have reached out to white house officials to see if they have any additional insight. and we'll be watching as the president is expected to depart the white house within the hour. >> and kelly, one quick thought. i should think this would weigh heavy on the president given that his son-in-law jared kushner is both culturally and religiously aligned with the jewish sfaitd afaith and his da has adopted the jewish faith as well. this may be something thatted t potentially very close to his heart. >> and they keep sabbath and they would not be under normal circumstances -- they don't use electronic devices in observance of this day. so that can be a complicating factor as a senior white house official. the chief of staff, john kelly,

former marine general would certainly be responsible as a number of others would be. but certainly when you talk about an issue that would have a family sensitivity, that is also true. and obviously the president has a roele to play whenever there s violence. and there has been so much attention in how he has handled events related to other incidents that this is a high bar for the president where he will need to speak to the nation. we don't know when that will happen, but we are prepared if he wants to make comments. >> kelly, thank you. and for all of you just tuning in, we're keeping our eyes on an unfolding situation in pittsburgh. we have word that in the squirrel hill community, there has been an attack by a gunman with a shotgun at the tree of life synagogue there. this is on wilkins avenue. and we heard from police authorities saying within the

last five minutes or so that three police officers were shot, an active shooter situation remains in effect, though they believe that they have the gunman in custody. they are still going through this congregation to figure out if there are anymore victims or anybody else who may be hiding in fear of their life. and there have been reports of multiple fatalities. we don't have a confirmed number yet so we are not going to go with what we believe to be the case until that is confirmed here at nbc news. we believe that there was about 60 to 100 people inside the synagogue at the time, this coming from the jewish federation of pittsburgh. again, this is a popular synagogue. the tree of life synagogue there in squirrel hill. it is a beautiful residential community, mostly single family homes. and we're seeing reports of the

"new york times" aenlsd where th and elsewhere who those just going about their saturday business, not necessarily inside that sin going theynagogue ther were told to stay inside, to not venture out. but clearly as we give you a live picture, we still have an active situation trying to figure out if there are anymore shooters potentially out there or any other victims inside that synagogue. i'm joined by clint van zandt and also clint watts. gentlemen, let's talk about the response and you've heard three police officers were shot. these are guys that were going into a situation up against a man with a shotgun at least one person, we don't know if there are more, they had to use their cars for cover to begin with. and that sometimes can't be effective. >> one thing it suggests how rap

pid rapid police response we have. realize that this situation, we look at mass shooting, mass murder, we look at those numbers differently. but this shooting with at least three officers shot and reports of sicitizens inside, this is le number 275 mass shootings we've had in the united states so far this year. >> it is an extra ordinary time. we have a lot of issues that we are dealing with. stay on the line if a moment. i don't know than die jonathan dietz is joining me. and i know that you have some information to share? >> reporter: pennsylvania state police have briefed some agencies and the primary information that they are providing is that there is a total of 12 people who have been shot, three of them are law

enforcement. there are numerous fatalities. they did provide a specific number of fatalities, but again, it is not firm. so i'll say it, but there is the caveat. they have a number preliminary of eight dead that the gunman was armed with an ar-style weapon as well as one or two handguns. and that he is in custody. and they are going through the rest of the building to make sure it is safe and secure. that is the plirm update out of the pennsylvania state police. and again, i stress preliminary. the suspect did give a name, we have that name. they are running that name to see if it is in fact the accurate and true name of who the suspect is. and once we have confirmation of that, we will learn more about him. there are of course reports that

he was saying anti-jewish and anti-semitic things as he went into that synagogue, but i think the key information is coming from pennsylvania state police to various law enforcement agencies, the initial reporting there is that 12 people have been shot, three of them law enforcement. and there are multiple fatalities and it appears that the gunman is in custody. >> thank you for that. please stay with us as you gather more information. clint and jim, i'll get to you in a moment. but we believe this according to the jewish fed raieration of pittsburgh that about 60 to 100 were inside that synagogue. typically services begin about k 9:45 a.m. and there are a much smaller group inside at that time, maybe only 20 to 30 for the early services. but reportedly there was a briss

ceremony this morning for an infant and that may be the reason for which the numbers may be swelled for a normal sabbath morning. clint, let's talk about the fact that you have more people in there. how does that complicate things for anybody going in and trying to secure that building? >> well, we know that it appears that the original target was the houts house of worship itself. and you go in with whether a shotgun or ar-15 and two handguns, i mean this is someone who is armed to the teeth and he went in there with the sole purpose of committing murder or mayhem. the only reason those numbers are smaller it appears, and i admit the numbers are terrible with 12 injured and maybe eight of those fatality, but had it not been for the speed in which the police department responded, and their job is to respond.

>> gthey need to get on the scene. he can't shoot two directions at the same time. so they are trying to engage him, trying to get him to shoot at them. we say this about police, a stchlt f. we r -- atf. we run to the gunfire. and while that is taking place, the police officers are hoping and maybe working from another 150id side trying to get everyone out while they are engaged with this individual. we just went through a terrible challenging stressful week for our country where hate was expressed. and it looks like this individual -- and we've talked this week about the strong possibility that we're going to get a copycat in some way, shape or form. someone will be sitting on the edge of the xwleegs al a emotio

make a decision to jump off. may not be a pipe bomb, maybe a handgun, a shot gun, but probably not a mistake that this individual did there on this date. he may have planned it, but one has to consider the possibility that everything else that happened this week in america provided the additional fodder to get this individual to do what he did. we'll find that out because it appears that he has been captured. this is somebody that we can talk to. >> and jim, i'll go over the numbers as have wraen reportbee. 12 people shot, including three officers. preliminary numbers are that eight have been killed. but jonathan is just allowing us an update saying that may go up. those numbers may go up. so as we consider the weapons that are reportedly involved in

this situation, jim, an ar-style weapon and two hand guns. and clichbts's point's point, t that the police got on scene there, is it likely that the ar-style weapon would have been used because of the speed with which it can disclonlg tlodge tt sgls when carryi sg . >> normally the long gun is your primary weapon. like the tactical officers, the long gun is the primary. the handgun is in a holster on the side. and sometimes we even carry the third gun on a vest in the front. so your primary weapon is the long gun. the shooter most likely went in and he started his attack and we know from the police reports that he was saying anti-semitic slogans. so we're getting a picture of

the motive. and we talked about that at length with clint and malcolm also, that the target also sometimes gives us the motive. and so we have a target which is indicative of motive and now the shooter saying anti-semitic talk, that is motive. he has the long gun. call comes in to 911. we don't know if it was s.w.a.t. or patrol, but first arriving was most likely patrol. because they are pinned to their cars. and the reason is because he has a long gun like an ar-15. so he can come out the window and many officers have been shot and killed like this with those kind of weapons. in fact pittsburgh had three officers murdered in 2009. three officers in pittsburgh. now, this is a suburb. but -- so anyway, he comes on out when the officers arrive in their patrol car and he can drop

them and wound them. now, that is a s.w.a.t. bearcat vehicle you are looking at. you th you -- they can shoot gas. and the vehicle is pulgd drerle directly up to the door. they can check the door, use the vehicle as cover, make an emergency entry. one of the dangers is there are wounded who are pleading. so you have to make an entry also not only the officer, but other wound twhod ae e-- woundeo are bleeding. >> and we've been watching how there have been injured taken away on stretchers. they are being taken to the hospital. and i just want to give an update again, this is according to local news there on the scene, that indeed the suspect surrendered and he was injured in this mayhelee this morning.

and the reports are confirming at least with another source that at least eight people have been killed and that was the preliminary information that jonathan dienst got directly from the pittsburgh police department. the complication of clearing a place like this, there are three different congregations that ho hold their service, three areas in this building that are useyd on a sabbath morning. and we're hearing that there was a special gathering for a briss ceremony. that may be why the normal 9:45 service says that there is maybe 20 to 30 people typically at this early hour on the sabbath morning. that is why they believe that the there was as many as 60 to 100 people inside.

whether that information was known to the shooter is purely spec ulative speculative. it could be just a matter of hate as he was shoudting ting anti-semitic statements. and i'm joined by former assist at any time director of the fbi. and when you look at this and it appears to be a hate crime, touk about how that differentiates from a typical shooting out of anger. >> when you have somebody who has allowed something to fester, if they have specific hatred toward a particular group, we're not sure how long that they have been planning something like this. we have lohave long gun involve weapon that can do at that time

trosk damage time -- catastrophic damage in a relatively short period of time. and police officers are injured. i know we've been talking about this that there may have been a very quick response by police. although i've seen just in the last couple of years houses of worship that actually have off duty police officers working in the temple or in the church even sometimes marked units outside because of some of this rhetoric. >> and these are also sometimes communities that try to train their own congregants to take turns, they own guns and they are willing to use them. so it is extended beyond that kind of preparation or the tenor of a religious service in this country that extends beyond just having police hired to take care. what does that say? >> we see in schools now these active shooter training for

schoolchildren run, hide, fight, shelter in place, how do you secure the door of your classroom. and i've seen that ham in tppene workplace and then in the congregations where we've seen these types of violence attacks against innocent civilians that people -- unfortunately police officers aren't able to respond as quickly as they can. and so people have to take care of themselves. so they are training in advance to prepare themselves. whether it be with firearms or in the event that they have to extricate themselves to prepare and to get themselves to safety. >> and malcolm, let's look at the tenor of what has happened in this country where the eyes of pretty much everybody have been on these package bombs that have gone to 14 different places, 12 different individuals across this country. the result of the man in 234floa

who was arrested yesterday. speak to that and the extent to this you think that that feeds into what we're seeing here this morning. i mean, can one separate one incident from another or is this all related? >> yeah, you can separate one incident from another. but as you said, there is a tenor that is going across the nation. and you know, this sort of reminds me of the time that in the 1980s during the greater militia rising where even though i was working international trichlt, most of t terrorism, most of the incidents were right wing extremist terrorist groups originaliting t of idaho and other places that were acts that were -- there was actually an entire movement of groups that had common ideology. attacking a jewish synagogue on a saturday morning a week after -- or days after there had

been a mail bombing campaign to go out against liberals, you know, according to people on one side of the pliolitical spectru it tells me that that media campaign, the intensity of the bombing campaign's media had worked in to the mind of this individual and that he was going to extend this period of terror, this period of intimidation by carrying out his own act. and we see this often times that one incident will exacerbate another person who may feel that he is also a foot soldier in a clue said and that it is his job to sustain the effort. so this is dangerous. this could lead to other incidents. and i'm surprised -- actually i'm sort of not surprised that these shooters here in the united states, they are not islamic radical terrorists from

overseas who die. they surrender once they do this so that they make their point and can live to tell it in court. >> and word is that this shooter did indeed surrender and he was injured at the time. let's go right now to nbc's pete williams. i understand you have an update on the situation? >> there doesn't seem to be much doubt that this is a hate crime based on what we're told by authorities the suspect said. we're not giving a name yet until we're absolutely certain of it. but we believe that the suspect is a 46-year-old man and the number of fatalities is somewhere between 8 and 10 we're told. and we know that according to authorities that have talked to jonathan dienst and also tom winter that the 12 people in all were shot. we know that three of those were

law enforcement. and we're waiting for confirmation, but it appears that the number of fatalities is eight, nine or ten. but we're waiting to get definitive word on that. the suspect is we think maybe wounded. but is in custody. and now of course as you know the authorities are going through the building just to make sure that no one else was involved. that is standard procedure in something like this. and to make sure that there are no other victims. so it hit two purposes and that what is happening. >> absolutely. and to your point, you're citing the statistics and of course we like to get all our facts and figures correct and have them corroborated before reporting them, but it speaks to chaotic nature of the situation liabilitilike this, so we will wait to see officially the level 6 carnaof

here. and they are still sernlgt positi -- searching the synagogue. there are three areas there. and right now the police there are using a drone overhead, they are now police are using a drone overhead trying to assess potential entry points of the roof. apparently it is the third floor of the synagogues right now that is being checked for a possible ied in a suspect package there. now, this is according to police radio. so we don't know the length of time that the assailant had inside that synagogues before opening fire. >> so our understanding -- first of all, i would described that just as a suspicious package at this point. that's something they will be checking for, too. but our understanding about how this happened is that the gunman entered the synagogues, came out. that's when he apparently had

his initial exchange of gunfire with the police. then went back in, and finally came back out. so we don't know, of course, how long he was in there the first time or the second time, how long -- whether he was carrying something else in addition to the weapons that he was carrying. >> correct. we are going to get a sense now of this synagogues from somebody who knows it well, nbc news analyst howard feynman. howard, i understand you grew up attending the tree of life congregation as part of the congregation attending that synagogues. talk about the facility, maybe how it is laid out in addition to that community there in squirrel hill. >> yes. okay. first let me say that i am heart broken. >> i bet. >> my own thoughts go out to everybody i know in pittsburgh where i grew up to the families in the girl hill neighborhood, which is one of the great and peaceful jewish neighborhoods in

america. and the tree of life is one of the major institutions in that community. as for the layout, there is an old central part of the synagogues. there is very large sanctuary that they built later on where i am sure the services were. i am guessing the services this morning were in the larger synagogues along the main avenue there. and there is a third part that's for the school and a social hall and so forth. it is an old congregation in pittsburgh. pittsburgh people may not know, has a pretty extensive jewish community. there are probably a dozen synagogueses in the squirrel hill neighborhood. this is one of the older ones. very much a center, one of the many centers of jewish life in pittsburgh. squirrel hill has a very boo colic name. it's actually one of the largest contiguous jewish neighborhoods i think in the united states certainly outside of new york. and it has a long and storied

tradition. it's a place i never thought as a reporter i would be reporting on in this way. to me, on a personal level, it's a testament to both the historic dangers the jews have faced, but also i must say without knowing anything else, the sort of horrible dislocating and upsetting time that we are living in in the united states. i don't want to overinterpret. i don't know anything about the alleged shooter. as pete williams said, it's almost certainly a hate crime given what this person was shouting. all i can tell you is, if this kind of violence reaches the tranquil tree of life synagogues in pittsburgh, it means it is everywhere, not only in this country, but around the world. and as i say, it is a remarkable area. produced a lot of really great people like jonas sark and so

forth. oriented towards the university of pittsburgh and carnegie mellon university which are both right there. pittsburgh is more a college town and a research town more than a industrial town. and squirrel hill is at the heart of that. >> i have to wonder about the horror of the congregation inside the synagogues as they heard the shooter shouting all these jews need to die as reported by police. this definitely puts it into the c gattgoer of a hate crime. typically with a 9:45 a.m. service, 20 to 30 people in the building for a service around that time, but the fact that there was another celebration service, that being a bris we

are told for an infant would make the numbers swell to some degree. that number -- you talked about the synagogues. it is an older synagogues. does it have an intimate feel to it? is it a larger sort of temple feel? >> yes, it's a large -- it is a larger institution where there's a great history and a great respect and where on -- i'm sure on high holidays and bar mitzvah and bat mitzvahs and other events like that the place is if not full, you know, has hundreds and hundreds of people in it. i don't know what was going on this morning. it doesn't sound like there was a bar mitzvah. there was a bris, which is another kind of ceremony, and a regular saturday service. i wanted to stress to you based on my knowledge of my hometown, and i do keep in close touch and travel there a lot. this kind of thing at a place like this, even among sophisticated people who know what's going on in the world,

has got to be a profound shock. pittsburgh is the kind of city where the ethnicities are lined up neighborhood by neighborhood, where people generally have a fond respect for each other's ethnicity. it is a real ethnic checkerboard. but my experience of pittsburgh -- i am not being naive. i know the city -- is generally people are tolerant: people are tolerant in the city and love the city, and have a love for their town and for the their city that reaches above ethnicity. that this kind of thing can happen in a place like this is what i want to keep stressing. >> yeah. >> it shows in a peaceful, in its own way kind of out of the way place like this, something

this massive and horrific can happen is a cautionary tale to us all no matter what our religious background, no matter what the color of our skin or anything. it's profoundly shocking. and i'm embarrassed to say that it takes something like this for me to see it fully, and to be as fearful as i am. >> to your point, we are looking at some of the police vehicles on scene. there were reports by a local resident who was shouted at by s.w.a.t. and said stay inside peeking outside his window seeing some 30 police cars on scene at 10:30 in the morning in this bucolic neighborhood on a sleepy saturday morning. when we think about this, to your point, howard, that you said if this can happen here in squirrel hill, it can happen just about anywhere. that's not being lost on the officers and officials within the n.y.p.d. they are deploying teams to synagogueses and jewish locations throughout new york city. i imagine they are not the only

law enforcement agency to be taking note of what is happening here and trying to make thing safe for anybody who would wish to attend any services. >> can i say, i don't know -- i have to say, i don't know all the history here by any means. but i can off the top of my head give the number of casualties that we are here even now confirmed. i can't think -- maybe the archives can tell us or the wires can tell us -- whether there has been a more deadly shooting in an american synagogues. i'm trying to remember. and again, the level of this and the deadliness of it is utterly shocking, utterly shocking and out of character. i must say, out of character with a place like pittsburgh. it is a big city. it is a comoss poll tan place, but i can't stress enough what a peaceful and wonderful neighborhood this is.

pittsburgh is an unusual city where there are tree-lined neighborhoods practically into downtown. it is a place that has become kind of popular. it is almost like a hip city at this point. people are moving because it is cheaper, the pace of life is slightly slower, but yet there are lots of amenities and lots of cultural institutions. pittsburgh is a -- is a -- as profoundly peaceful a place at least you know in the last 120 years since the labor riots of the late 19th century that we have in america. and there are especially efforts made to reach across lines in terms of race and ethnicity and so on. it can be tough. i mean you talk to the black community in pittsburgh, they have lots of concerns about policing in the city. i am not saying there isn't jostling among the races and the ethnicities, but that's not something that characterizes pittsburgh. and that should be a cautionary tale to everybody around the country and the world. >> howard, very quickly, you

said this was one of about a dozen synagogues in the area? >> i would say roughly in the squirrel hill area, i don't know the exact number today but i would say it is close to that. >> okay. >> i'm sure the pittsburgh police and the allegheny county police are on that part of the case. >> howard feynman thank you for that. for awful you, welcome i am alex witt live at msnbc headquarters in new york. it is high noon on the east coast. if you are just joining us we want to bring you up to date on the breaking news we are follow. at least eight to ten people are dead in a shooting in a pittsburgh synagogues. the suspect is believed to be a 46-year-old man. he is now in custody. the suspect was reportedly armed with an ar-15-style rifle as well as multiple handguns. reportedly, a total of 12 people have been shot. that would include three police officers. the cite of this heinous incident, the tree of life synagogues in the squirrel hill neighborhood of pittsburgh. it is home t