named matt whitaker. until today, he served as sessions' chaef ief of staff. "the new york times" on how out of the norm the appointment of whitaker is. the deputy attorney general, now mr. rosenstein, would normally be in line to become the acting attorney general. but mr. trump has complained publicly about mr. rosenstein, too. one of the things trump may like about whitaker, he's openly criticized the mueller investigation, writing in an op ed, quote, it is time for rosenstein, who is the acting attorney general, for the purposes of this investigation, to order mueller to limit the scope of his investigation to the four corners of the order appointing him special counsel. if he doesn't, then mueller's investigation will eventually start to look like a political fishing expedition. this would not only be out of character for a respected figure like mueller, but also could be damaging to the president of the united states and his family. and by extension to the country. for his part, sessions resigned at the request of the president,

writing, quote, dear mr. president, at your request, i am submitting my resignation. the letter, of course, addressed to the president, but it was delivered to his chief of staff john kelly just hours after the midterm elections wound down. but donald trump's displeasure with sessions has long been like all things trumpian, vicious and out in the open. donald trump criticized sessions for recusing himself from the russia probe saying that he never would have named him ag if he knew he'd follow the rules. >> i'm disappointed in the attorney general for numerous reasons, but we have an attorney general. i'm disappointed in the attorney general for many reasons. and you understand that. >> i am disappointed in the attorney general. he should not have recused himself almost immediately after he took office. and if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me prior to taking office. and i would have quite simply picked somebody else. so i think that's a bad thing,

not for the president, but for the presidency. i think it's unfair to the presidency. and that's the way i feel. >> sessions should have never recused himself, and if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me before he took the job, and i would have picked somebody else. the attorney general made a terrible mistake when he did this and when he recused himself or he should have certainly let us know if he was going to recuse himself. and we would have used a -- put a different attorney general in. so he made what i consider to be a very terrible mistake for the country. >> i wonder how he really feels. booting sessions will not mean getting rid of him. sessions is a key witness in mueller's investigation into the president. here to help us through this breaking news, some of our favorite reporters and friends. from "the washington post," phil rucker, from "the new york times," reporter mike schmidt, associated press white house reporter jon nathan lemire, fra

figliuzzi, chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official. and on set, john heilemann, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst and co-host and executive producer of "the circus" on showtime. chuck rosenberg, i'm going to you on all things robert mueller. this was always going to be a precarious time. donald trump, whether feeling backed into a corner by democratic gains or emboldened by republican gains and as only trump could be both in one moment he seems to be. but the concern was always going to be the fate and future of the mueller probe. my understanding it's now likely in the hands of a staunch trump ally, a person more a political figure than respected legal mind and someone who has written openly about his concerns and displeasure with the duration and the direction of mueller's probe. >> that's right, nicolle. you've characterized it fairly. you don't get to be the acting

attorney general and overseeing the mueller probe following the dismissal of jeff sessions unless they know -- trump knows, the white house knows what you think and how you're going to act. i hate to say that. i would hope that matt whitaker could rise to the occasion. i hope he understands the gravity of this investigation. and that his reputation and the reputation of the department of justice are at stake. that's what i hope. what i fear is that they picked him because they know that he thinks the mueller investigation has gone too far. he wrote that a little bit more than a year ago in an article for cnn. if you read that article, it's chilling. i can assure you the president either read that article or had someone read it to him because it tells us exactly how matt whitaker thinks about the mueller probe. >> mike schmidt, he wrote the president is absolutely correct. mueller has come up to a red line in the russia 2016 election

meddling investigation that he is dangerously close to crossing. i believe that's the red line that the president discussed in an interview with you and your colleagues about looking into his business interests. what's your sense of matt whitaker's vision for the mueller probe? >> well, that red line has been sort of complete lly destroyed the justice department when earlier this year they went to the offices of the president's lawyer, executed a search warrant and took documents with them as part of an investigation into something unrelated to the russia probe. now you have that person who thinks that if mueller did it, that was over the line, overseeing the justice department. i can't believe that he thinks that since he wrote the op-ed that the investigation has become more tame. it will be interesting to see what he does now. does he really try and rein mueller in. is it something simply as not approving measures that mueller wants to do? does he cut his funding or just not do anything? and that's where we're sitting right now just a day after the

election. >> frank figliuzzi, how do people like rod rosenstein and anyone on his team who has taken on the role of overseeing the mueller probe, really my understanding is only being involved at a very high level, sort of navigating perhaps timing of some things. how does someone like rod rosenstein now report to someone who robert costa covered and moderated a debate with called a rah-rah republican? how does someone like rod rosenstein report to and turn the mueller probe over to someone like whitaker? >> so rod is going to have to make a decision about how fully whitaker gets briefed. and the way washington works is you brief your chain of command. so whitaker is going to need a full briefing on everything rosenstein knows right now about the special counsel investigation. and that's going to get interesting. because even though whitaker has been out publicly saying mueller has crossed a red line, he's done so without understanding what mueller's got.

and so i suppose there's still a possibility that if rosenstein gives him a full briefing, that there might be sufficient connections to all of the finances that mueller's looking at and the idea of russian collusion that whitaker will have to say, i see the linkage. they are linked to russia, and i see why we need to move on with this. but let's go back to what chuck said. i think we're watching obstruction of justice play out right in plain sight. i fear there's a quid pro quo. you do this, i name you acting attorney general. or i nominate you for attorney general. you take care of the special counsel investigation. and that's public corruption. >> mike schmidt, donald trump so much as said that to you in an interview, i believe, during his christmas vacation. he said he wants his roy kohn. he admired him because he wanted his guys at the justice department. is it your sense he's realized that ambition here articulated in an interview with you?

>> the president has struggled to understand what the attorney general is and what the attorney general is supposed to typically do in washington. and the president sees the attorney general as someone who should be his personal lawyer. he's essentially said that. he's said that bobby kennedy was that for jfk. holder was that. and he wants that himself. he wants his roy cohn. that's what he thought sessions should do. he could never understand why sessions recused himself. he couldn't get his head around it. he thought sessions should be loyal to him. that was more important than the law or the facts or the evidence or the role that sessions played during the campaign. and he has said it publicly. he does not hide his feelings about it. he has been open about it. in july of 2017, as you were playing before, he openly says, look, i wouldn't have made him my attorney general. everyone around the president says if he was paying attention during the transition, he clearly would have known sessions had to recuse himself because of the role he played

during the campaign. >> chuck rosenberg, the conduct of the president, vis-a-vis jeff sessions is very much under scrutiny by robert mueller. both the private conduct that robert mueller may or may not have learned about from hours and hours of interviews with people in the cabinet and on the senior level of the white house staff. he's also scrutinized, we know, from mike and his colleagues' reporting, his tweets and public statements, most of them we played. what does this picture look like to you as a former prosecutor? does it look like, as frank figliuzzi described, obstruction of justice? >> i think frank is spot on. here's why. we know that mueller -- i think we safely assume that mueller is looking at an obstruction of justice case. all of those tweets, all the comments by the president describing what he wants done and how he wants it done look like steps in a path toward obstruction. it strikes me that if you're firing sessions because you're unhappy that he is not

protecting you as a roy cohn would and you put in somebody who will protect you, that's just another brick in the wall. that's another question for mueller to ask. another round of interviews for mueller to conduct. why was sessions removed? and it's pretty clear it's a removal, even though the letter says resignation. and what are the other people going to do to help protect the president? i think this adds to the obstruction case. it doesn't subtract from it. >> whitaker might be of interest to a potential witness to mueller to answer the question you just posed. what did you promise the president and was there a quid pro quo? >> it might be completely innocent. he might have thought matt whitaker was the best person on the entire planet to be the acting attorney general. >> you don't seem like you believe that is a viable scenario. >> he's a lawyer. maybe that qualifies him. >> maybe. >> he wrote a letter

defending -- i'm sorry, excoriating rosenstein and criticizing the investigation by mueller. maybe that qualifies him. or maybe there's a deal. and i hate to sound so sinister and to imply something so nefarious, but this is a question that i think mueller has to ask. >> all right. mueller may also want to see this because this is whitaker, the new acting attorney general. the new man in charge of the mueller investigation. an investigation that has ensnared the president's son donald trump jr. this is whitaker on donald trump jr. on cnn. >> what happened here is this lawyer used a pretext to get a meeting with, you know, some important campaign officials to really talk about the issue she wants to talk to which is getting rid of this u.s. policy regarding adoptions and used the, you know, quite frankly, here in iowa, we call it a bs excuse of saying she had opposition research and, listen, nobody is talking about what that opposition research is because we all agree it's ludicrous.

the fact russians are funding the dnc and helping hillary clinton, no one is advancing that. and don junior when he heard that certainly dismissed it quickly as based on what he said. and i think, you know, sort of to suggest there's a conspiracy here. you'd always take that meeting. you'd have somebody -- >> you'd always take that meeting? >> so, frank figliuzzi, i know this much. he's not a very good campaign strategist. no campaign would ever take that meeting. we now have in the acting attorney general, the man overseeing the mueller probe right now as we speak someone who defended donald trump jr., essentially serving as a defender of not just the president but the president's family and their legal exposure in the mueller probe. is that not a blatant conflict? >> yeah, we're looking at under -- what under most circumstances, nicolle, would raise issues of recusal. of course, ironically, that's why sessions has earned the ire of the president is because he did the right thing and recused himself.

but we've got similar situation here with whitaker. he certainly is entitled to his opinion. he was speaking at the time without knowledge of what mueller has about this meeting and how it was set up. but any attorney who says anybody would take that meeting, when it was offered as dirt on the opposition and the respondent says it that's what it is, i love it. i'm deeply concerned that he would be leading our department of justice. >> jonathan lemire, you're at the white house today. donald trump didn't really preview this decision but it may have been on his mind when he answered this question. we don't have it, but donald trump asked about firing sessions at the press conference today which may still be going on. we cut away. someone asked him, can you give us clarity of your thinking after the midterms about the deputy attorney general and your deputy attorney general? do they have long-term security? here was his answer. >> can you give us clarity, sir, on your thinking currently, now after the midterms about your attorney general and your deputy attorney general? do they have long-term job security? >> i'd rather answer that at a

little bit different time. we're looking at a lot of different things, including cabinet. i'm very happy with most of my cabinet. we're looking at different people for different positions. you know, it's very common after the midterms. i didn't want to do anything before the midterms. but i will tell you that, for the most part, i'm extremely happy with my cabinet. i think mike pompeo has fit in so beautifully. he's done an incredible job. >> he just had to get back to his lair and tweet a little bit. he announced the resignation, i guess, the requested resignation of sessions shortly after that wrapped up. and rod rosenstein, we understand, we showed some footage, at the white house for a previously scheduled meeting. what's your sense from the white house today about how this decision is going over? >> yeah, dealing with sessions in a slightly difference time meant a couple hours later for the president. yes, that was -- that clip was from a remarkable, nearly 90-minute, very combative news

conference which took a victory lap for the republicans results in the midterm elections and sparred with reporters repeatedly. jeff sessions' departure is not a surprise. this is something he has -- the president has wanted to do for a long time. his frustration with sessions since the recusal and, of course, sessions was the first u.s. senator to endorse trump's long shot campaign bid in 2015. but the president never forgave him for that original sin of being talked out of firing him repeatedly. rudy giuliani has told him not to do it. and the president begrudgingly agreed to wait until after the midterms but had been telling people recently he wanted to act very soon after the ballots were cast. he acted -- he did indeed that with doing this today. and sessions -- for sessions, he was spotted here this weekend showing his grandkids around the briefing room. he clearly knew this was coming. he received the call from the chief of staff john kelly and

sent over the undated letter of resignation, one he tried to submit previously and was talked out of it by reince priebus and others. he didn't want to have to go voluntarily. he felt like he told people around him he was doing the president's work at the department of justice but there was simply no way he was ever going to get back into the good graces of donald trump who wouldn't speak to him. he'd ignore him at white house meetings and have him send underlings instead. >> phil rucker, that's how we got to know whitaker. while he was doing everything jonathan described, whitaker sort of wormed his way in, to coin a phrase there. and developed this bond with the president. they connected. but everything that jonathan lemire described is on a list of questions that robert mueller gave donald trump's lawyers. robert mueller wants to ask the president what he thought and did regarding the recusal of mr. sessions. he wants to ask donald trump what he thought and did in reaction to the news of the

appointment of the special counsel. he wants to ask the president, why did you hold mr. sessions' resignation and who did you discuss it with? he wants to ask the president about his treatment of sessions as an obvious investigation into whether or not the president was trying to obstruct the investigation into his own campaign and himself. >> and that's because a lot of the things the president did in his relationship with jeff sessions, the way he managed the attorney general, the way he communicated with the attorney general, would potentially be exhibits in an obstruction of justice case. and this -- the events in the last hour are a huge test, i think, for the democrats who are taking over this house majority. they'll have subpoena power in those committees. nancy pelosi who is poised to become the new speaker, has said she sees this victory as bringing checks and balances to the trump administration. holding the trump administration accountable. and i think they're going to begin investigations as soon as they're able to into why trump fired sessions and tried to answer some of the questions you

just laid out that the special counsel is after. >> john heilemann, firing sessions, not surprising and potentially not politically perilous for the president. but naming whitaker could be like all things trump, the second half of the sentence that gets him in trouble. >> sure. although in some sense also not surprising, i think the thing so jarring -- what's jarring about this is not -- we've talked for months about the fact sessions is going to go some time after the midterms. it's that it happened today. >> right. >> and that, i -- something that did not surprise me. i think i said on the air that if trump woke up the day after the election feeling either emboldened or threatened -- >> or both. >> or in this case, as it turns out, both. that's what you see here with this split decision which is not really as much a split decision as people say. he feels clearly emboldened by the enhanced majorities in the senate. he feels clearly threatened by the fact democrats have taken back the house. and make no mistake. everything that was just said, all of our smart analysts and

reporters said really smart things. i just want to be at 30,000 feet about this one thing. the president is moving rapidly to try to shut down the mueller probe. no ambiguity about what he's doing here. it has been clear he's wanted to do that for a long time. he wanted to wait until the election to see exactly what the political make-up was going to be and what the threats were and what the latitude would be with the senate. now he knows. so very quickly he's moving towards not just the things we're seeing, firing, again, be clear about this. firing the attorney general, resigning at your request is firing. he fired you. he just fired jeff sessions. and he's installed a lackey. against all precedent that the deputy attorney general should be the acting attorney general now. >> correct. >> that's why you have a deputy is so if the attorney general leaves, you step up into that job. the only reason that's not happening is because he wants to not have rod roen stone

overseeing the mueller probe anymore. can we not mince words about this or have clarity and ambiguity about what's happening. and if you understand that and the obvious urgency he's move with, the day after the midterm elections, to maximize the period where he can act while we are in a period where republicans control both branches of congress, we -- there is, again, to be clear, no ambiguity. we're hurd ling toward the constitutional crisis we've been worried about for the last two years. on the brink of it right now. and i don't have any -- if would not surprise me that we'd find ourselves in the middle of it in the next 48 hours. >> starting perhaps this afternoon. >> we're going to stay on this story. the firing of attorney general jeff sessions. among our guest, the former cia director john brennan. everyone else is staying put. also more on a new democratic house. what that means for this white house and the mueller probe. stay with us.

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if jeff sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay. any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency, unless mueller did something wrong. >> so that was lindsey graham last year, apparently before he drank the president's anti-mueller kool-aid. here was lindsey graham last night. >> i think jeff will step aside after the midterm -- >> resign or be fired? >> well, we'll see. but, you know, every president deserves an attorney general they have confidence in. i like jeff sessions but this is just not working. if we hold the senate, i think

you'll probably see a new attorney general some time next year. >> would you like to be attorney general, if asked, would you serve? >> no, no, no. >> all right. >> thank you very much. >> famous last words. joining our conversation, matt miller and here on set, former maryland democratic congresswoman donna edwards, former florida congressman david jolly, who is no longer a republican and democratic congressman steve israel. heilemann and frank are still with us. let me start with you, donna, on what democrats can do to -- it was pointed out to me yesterday during the day that by former national security official who served democratic and republican presidents, that it was striking that no legislation was ever passed to protect the mueller probe. your thoughts on what democrats can do with control of the house. >> it is. i'm not sure whether this is going to rest in the house. i noticed today, for example, in the senate that warner put out -- mark warner put out a statement but i didn't see a companion statement from richard burr. to me, that's a signal about

whether they can move forward to protect the mueller investigation. i think certainly on the house side, if the president didn't want investigations, today he set the table for investigations with this move. >> and he may have added an investigation into exactly what chuck rosenberg described. if there was a quid pro quo, what did whitaker promise? what conversations did the president and mr. whitaker have before he ascended -- and this is a quick askents cent to the attorney general overseeing the mueller probe. >> we're watching the president move to have bob mueller fired or to so constrain his investigation that it becomes absolutely meritless, if you will. we also know, though, we can't let him get away with turning this news cycle just into jeff sessions. we still get to talk about the fact that last night democrats took control of the house. if i can stay in that news cycle for just a moment --

>> please. >> steve and i were talking earlier today that republicans have declared victory. the president of the united states has taken a victory lap. my democratic friends seem to be licking their chops they lost these high-profile races. this moment is why democrats fought so hard to get what they got last night, which was control of the house of representatives. and to my democratic friends, be proud of that because this is the moment. if we did not have a democratic majority, this moment will be much greater of a constitutional crisis than what we're about to face. >> if the opposite had been true. i had the same conversations with my democratic friends heartbroken over beto and gillum and anxious over stacey abrams. if democrats hadn't taken control of the house, you'd have no subpoena power, you'd have no ability to finish the investigations or -- i don't know if you can call the investigation an investigation. i find it funny that it's you and i the former republicans -- >> mueller could get fired

tomorrow tomorrow, and he just might. they can immediately appoint a special committee with all the vf gative authority. now the trump administration is going to push back. they'll not cooperate or respond to the subpoenas and we may end up in a federal court case over that. but the reality is there are people now that this administration has to answer to that, as of yesterday, weren't there that they would have otherwise had to answer to. >> this was precisely what triggered the president's anxiety today in that press conference. and you can almost see that he thought that he was setting things up for himself and what he has done is he's asked jerry nadler to step forward as chairman. >> i think i have a statement from chairman nadler or tweet. americans must have answers immediately as to the reasoning behind donald trump's removing jeff sessions from the justice department. why is the president making this change and who has authority over special counsel robert mueller's investigation? we'll be holding people accountable. matt miller, this was precisely, whether or not it was a message

that democrats ran on, this was always going to be the most immediately and perhaps urgent function that democrats would have to assume when they took control of these committees. >> yeah, that's right. and the problem is they don't take control of these committees until january. if i have a concern here, it's that by january, it might be too late. once they have control of these committees they can subpoena witnesses, make matt whitaker come up and testify, ask for documents. by then, he may have already moved to shut this investigation down or, you know, to decline, you know, new investigative steps for mueller. maybe put a subpoena in a drawer. the timing of this is so suspect because we're so close to the end of the mueller investigation. whitaker coming in right now might be at the critical time to stop the key steps that need to happen. indictments or referral to congress from taking place. i really do think this is a national emergency. i don't think you can overstate the gravity of the situation. and it's incumbent upon everyone in public life to respond to this like it's an emergency. this isn't like all of trump's other attempts to interfere with

the investigation. he's reached over and found he one person among dozens of political appointees who has a preordained hostility. publicly stated hostility to the investigation. i think for people in congress, they need to step up and object to this. i think people -- the broad public, this is the time to maybe take to the streets and say this is not what you expect out of the government. i have a message for people at the justice department. there are a number of senior political appointees at the justice department. republican appointees who believe in the rule of law and believe in this investigation, believe in what bob mueller and rosenstein has done. the country needs to hear from them in the next few days. this is a crisis moment. they need to step forward and make their voices heard in mass resignations if necessary to say they just will not stand for this abuse of the justice department's independence. >> matt mueller, let me ask you what i asked frank figliuzzi in the last block. how does rod rosenstein, who has taken arrows, more arrows from members of his own party than

anyone else serving under this president, i believe. how does he report to whitaker? and what do you think is happening right now in the justice department? do you believe whatever documents exist, that whatever the dag has access to, do you believe that's all being transferred to whitaker's staff? if you can take me inside that building, when an acting attorney general takes control of an investigation, are there boxes that will be wheeled down to his office? does he immediately have access to all the information, and i ask you that because politico reports today that donald trump jr. has quipped to friends, perhaps in jest, that he may be indicted. and he certainly has been talked about, rumored to have perhaps been in to see mueller or not. do you think that there's some sort of synergy between whitaker getting this job, don junior's political liability and the deputy attorney general having to turn over this investigation? >> yeah, that's certainly the concern. i don't think it's a coincidence the president didn't wait a day -- didn't wait more than a

day. immediately after the election, immediately when it was time that both he could do this without political consequences at the ballot box and critically, once we're into that period where mueller can start to act again, he moved as soon as possible against this investigation. in terms of what the new acting attorney general will do, it is all up to him. he can do whatever he wants. ask for a full briefing on the investigation. ask for documents. he can ask for that briefing from the deputy attorney general or his staff. he can ask bob mueller to come in and explain what he's doing. and i think if you are rod rosenstein, there is a critical question right now, which is does the acting attorney general have to recuse himself from this investigation? i think in any normal circumstance, the answer would clearly be yes. both because of what he said publicly about the investigation, that he has prejudged the legality of the trump tower meeting by saying anyone would take that meeting. i don't know how you can, in good conscience, oversee the investigation when you've made that statement. and because of the circumstances under which you've been appointed. you'd have to consult with ethics officials at the

department and answer the question of whether that appear ach ance of impropriety means you have to recuse yourself. i don't think he's going to recuse himself. the fix is in on this from the beginning. if you're rod rosenstein, the first question you're trying to ask yourself before you take dramatic steps is, is there a way to see if the acting attorney general does follow what i think would be advice from ethics attorneys and recuse himself from this investigation. >> well, just to go back to what david is saying. it's obviously, i think, to wrap up last night for whatever it's worth. yeah, democrats always get all invested in these candidates they love. they get emotional about them. very inspiring candidates who promise a new way forward, new coalitions. the only one headline history will care about about last night is one party rule in washington is over. there is now a check on the presidency because the houses will be in january controlled by democrat. that's all six months from now,

a year from now, 20 years from now that's what will matter. no disrespect about o'rourke and gillum and abrams. they're promising people, but in the end, this is the big change. and it is clearly what is motivating this window that we're talking about. lame-duck sessions, presidents do stuff in lame-duck sessions, especially when there's a change of control in one or both houses of congress. that's when they do stuff that they know they can't be able -- won't be able to do. >> recess appointments. jamming through legislation that's unpopular. this is traditional thing. it's just in this case, the highest priority for donald trump right now is to shut down bob mueller's investigation. the thing that is -- the one political implication of last night, again, one we anticipated but now we're very aware of is that the house of representatives in the republican caucus is more conservative than it was. and will be in january. and the senate caucus, although people like bob corker and jeff flake are not yet out of the building, they are now in the

departure lourchl uure lounge. when you think about the small handful of senate republicans who have ever wanted to try to send a warning shot with donald trump related to bob mueller and how he handles this investigation, those two guys recognize. they're like, maybe that gives them the freedom and political courage. i doubt it. >> not a lot of that. >> more likely trying to figure out their lobbying deals when they get out in january or february and it makes more sense to not say anything offensive over the next three months. within the republican party, both in the enhanced majority in the senate and the rump faction that's left in the house, trump has more of a circle the wagon caucus in the republican party than he had before. which makes -- which again adds to the circumstance and the political incentives he has to do what he seems to be lining up to do right now which is to move very quickly to get bob mueller either out or under a vice grip. >> does this jump to the top of the pile of democrats to-do items because of the president's actions today, asking for the

resignation of jeff sessions and appointing political ally matt whitaker? >> it jumps to the top of the pile but it has to include other things. i'm hoping democrats don't take the bait on this. if they decide they'll spend 100% of their time in a new majority on -- >> can they walk and chew gum? >> that's my point. if it's just going to be impeachment investigation, they lose some of the new members they brought in in republican-leaning districts with independent voters who like checks and balances. so the challenge for adam schiff, the challenge for jerry nadler, for elijah cummings and nancy pelosi will be to do just that. pursue their constitutional oversight responsibilities, to hold this president and his administration accountable, but also to pass a bill on infrastructure. to pass legislation to reduce prescription drug costs. to deliver to those voters. let me say one other thing on this. the reason democrats took the majority last night was because of those independent swing voters in those purple districts. this stuff doesn't play well

with them. by their very nature, they don't like the swamp. they don't like a president who seems to be protecting his family and his interests instead of the constitution. i do think we're going into a constitutional crisis and obinstruction of justice. this backfires with independent voters. >> let me give you the last word, jonathan lemire. everyone is on the record predicting a constitutional crisis. is anyone in the white house seeing that coming, fear that that's coming, aware that that's coming? worried that that might be coming? >> the people close to the president don't. i mean, certainly he was counseled, as i said before, not to move on sessions before the midterms. but that was always couched in political terms. this is something the president did to wear down the opposition. for a while, preserving see ini sessions was one of the few things the republicans stood up to the president. don't do it because it would be bad for our midterm prospects. also because jeff sessions was a faithful senator for a long time. we're not going to be able to confirm a replacement. mitch mcconnell gave that message to the senator. but lindsey graham started

speaking out about how the president would be entitled to get his own attorney general, one he trusted, sort of was the breaking point. and the president wore down the other senators and now people around him are willing to forge forward to see what's next. they feel like they have the ability to win this in the courts, if needed. >> wow. jonathan lemire, frank figliuzzi. still ahead, reaction to sessions firing and the uncertainty of the mueller probe from former cia director john brennan. he joins us next. at t. rowe price our experts go beyond the numbers to examine investment opportunities firsthand. like e-commerce spurring cardboard demand. the pursuit of allergy-free peanuts. and mobile payment reaching new markets. this is strategic investing. because your investments deserve the full story. t.rowe price. invest with confidence.

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we're going to look at the work the gop obstructed on our committee, and it was really worse than abdicating the responsibility of the committee. the majority went further to be complicit in the president's attacks on the independence of the justice department, on the men and women of the fbi, on our intelligence community. so we also need to restore the relationship between our committee and the intelligence

community and law enforcement. but, look, at the time when we formally take control of the house, that won't be until january. and we'll have to see what bob mueller has been able to do and what bob mueller has been able to say either via indictment or via report. and that will also guide what we intend to do in our committee. >> that was congressman adam schiff last night. poised to become the new chairman of the house intel committee now that democrats have taken control of the house. he's vowing to end trump's war on justice but better get to work quickly. joining us by phone is john brennan. now an nbc news and msnbc national security and intelligence analyst. i wanted to get your thoughts today on both democrats taking over control of the house intel committee and perhaps doing the real work of trying to understand the role russia played in meddling in the 2016 election instead of the trump shilling that devin nunes was doing. but i have to start with the

breaking news. donald trump has asked for attorney general jeff sessions' resignation. in his place he's appointed as acting attorney general someone "the washington post" describes as a rah-rah republican. the chief of staff to jeff sessions, matt whisketaker. he's on the record questioning the scope, veracity of the mueller probe and defending trump junior's participation in the trump tower meeting. >> as many of your guests have said, this firing of jeff sessions, is widely anticipated. i don't know whether we thought it was going to happen within 24 hours of the polls closing, but that's sort of typical donald trump. but i would point out that bob mueller and rod rosenstein also anticipated the firing. and i would not be surprised at all if they have taken some steps to ensure that the investigation is going to be able to come to fruition. so, for example, and it's adam

schiff's reference in his interview last evening, if there are some major indictments coming down the pike, i wouldn't be surprised if you'll see it very soon. simil generally the report the special counsel will draft and deliver to rod rosenstein, i wouldn't be surprised if that is ready to go as well. and so then it brings to the other question, which is the ability of the democrats to take over the house and to ensure that the investigations that are under way that adam schiff, nadler and others can really get to the bottom of what actually transpired in the 2016 election. and who might have been complicit and might have been involved in some type of criminal activity that i think the american people deserve to know. i think bob mueller and rod rosenstein knew very well after the midterm elections that their futures might be seriously in question. and now with the appointment of

matt whitaker, he clearly, clearly is biased against the mueller probe, i think that rosenstein and mueller will now implement whatever plans they have to move forward with the products they're going to push forward. >> i heard a very similar analysis from a former intelligence official who is also a close mueller watcher who said that because robert mueller has been quiet, we should assume that he's been more busy than ever. and that whatever cases he was investigating and perhaps preparing to charge, those are likely ready to go. that no one has more situational awareness than robert mueller. if he were going to charge new suspects in the probe, would it be your guess those are ready to go immediately if it's possible, mr. whitaker is currently being read in on the mueller probe and ready to alter its course? >> i would think they would be ready to go. let's not forget, although bob mueller has been doing this a

little over a year and a half, the fbi investigation into this started in late july 2016. bob mueller was able to build upon the work that the fbi investigators had done during those previous nine or ten months or so. and bob mueller is very apolitical. he is somebody who carries out his duties and responsibilities irrespective of political parties that may be in power, but he is exceptionally politically savvy. he has been in washington for many, many years, and he knows how those political waters will swirl. so that's why i believe that if he was anticipating like all the rest of us that jeff sessions is going to be out and that donald trump might move forward with taking actions, that truly are going to raise questions about this country and this government's ability to carry out the rule of law, i think bob mueller will do his level best to deliver. >> you as former director of the cia had to have had a working

relationship with the justice department in every administration that's the case. how would the intelligence community work with somebody like mr. whitaker who has his thumb on the scale? we already know exactly how he feels about the mueller probe. he's prejudged it before it's come to its conclusion. we already know how he feels about donald trump jr.'s participation in the trump tower meeting. he thinks it's a nothing burger. that is something under investigation by robert mueller in both sort of the obstruction of justice prong of that investigation for the lies told afterward and the conspiracy to coordinate with a foreign government and an american adversary. the other avenue. what -- how would career professionals in the law enforcement community, in other u.s. attorneys offices, the southern district of new york also has big cases against the president, michael cohen has alleged that donald trump directed him to pay hush money to a porn star. how do career national security,

intelligence and law enforcement officials deal with someone who is essentially a political stand-in for the president's interests? >> well, i think the intelligence community professionals and those within the department of justice/fbi have had quite a bit of experience of having to deal with political loyalists who are appointed to senior positions. but in most instances, not in all instances, when those political loyalists get into positions of tremendous responsibility and authority and they realize the gravity of these issues, they tend to take the right path because they should not be complicit in any type of action that is going to inhibit and thwart the rule of law. so jeff sessions, credit to him for recusing himself, and so matt whitaker comes with a lot of baggage. and it's going to be quite evident, i think, whether or not he is going to fulfill his responsibilities now in that

position or whether or not he is going to be like many others in the trump administration, an enabler, an apologist and a cicophant for trump. but i do believe that's why i have confidence that the house committees of jurisdiction under the able leadership of the adam schiffs and jerry nadlers and others will pursue this effort and not allow individuals to just push things under the rug. >> let me just quickly push you. are you saying that mr. whitaker with his public statements, public writings and his comments on television should be recused from overseeing the mueller probe based on those statements? >> i would think that there is a very strong case that given his public acknowledgment of his prejudiced view on this issue that he should recuse himself.

i knowledge there arethink ther people out there raising their eyebrows, rightly so, wondering whether matt whitaker in this acting capacity, has the credentials, has the credibility needed to lead needed to lead the department of justice at such a crucial and critical sometime in our history whtime e facing a crisis sometime soon. >> former cia director, thank you for jumping on the phone with us. john heilemann, that is two former senior national security officials just this hour saying on our air that matthew whitaker, who is os tenably appointed acting ag to take over the mueller probe should be recuse based on statements we found in a google search. surely, someone in the white house could have googled mr. whitaker. >> well, i assume they have googled mr. whitaker. i think all of our discussion of what the merits of this are, in

a normal circumstance. what should happen are all kind of conversations that are quaint rolex -- there sessions recuse. >> he did. in that sense, sessions was a relic of an earlier time, too. he arrived if office -- >> babies with cages for christ's sake. >> with a shred so of a memory, vestigial mor memory and he consulted the ethics and did the right thing. in this instance, he did what tradition and what the merits on the questions of the case would dictate. this situation, obviously, on the basis of what we seen in our google search. there is probably much more that would suggest on the same basis he should recuse himself and director bren naen is making the case of the merits the reality

is no longer are we living in that world, do we have a president that doesn't care about that the white house doesn't care about those things the merits the traditions, the norms, all that stuff, but it seems as though this person now it is going to be clear as we dig into his appointment, what we think of as kind of legislative history, not legislative the back story on how this guy got in there. you think about the fact he is basically a politico, right, not someone with a great history of law enforcement or legal theory of the academy. none of that. right? i think we will learn quickly the reason he was put in this job was because of those writings so as to set up this moment, they were not a bug. it was a feature. it's why he's there. >> all right. we have to sneak in a brake. trump's meltdown remind us the trump administration still among one of his biggest triggers. - [announcer] the typical vacuum head can struggle

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we're covering the breaking news that donald trump requested the resignation of the acting attorney general and has installed matt whitaker as his attorney general and installed matt whitaker as his acting ag in charge of the mueller investigation. you pull up a number. this is what the 27th? >> 26th. the president elected says he knows how to run things, sessions is the high profile trump appointee to have either resigned, moved on, been fired, asked to leave.

we're not even at two years. >> we need a bigger wall. >> acting attorney general matt whitaker will do what every other republican in washington does which is fall in line with donald trump. but what we re-visited earlier is so important, every democratic voter that fought there are this moment the proud of your hard work. we needed a democratic congress. we got it last night for exactly this moment. >> matt miller, i guess you want to agree with that. you want to see them act? >> i agree with that. you i don't think you can wait for a democratic congress that will take office in two months. i think anyone that cares about the rule of law in this country, whether they will republican, democratic, independent, now is the time to make your voices heard. if can you call your senator congressman object to this, it's time to do so. >> you used to advise the attorney general. what should rod rosenstein do? >> i think rod rosenstein i would advise to hold his pattern to see if they can resolve this

recusal of sessions. if he recuse himself, i hits the worth rod rosenstein waiting around for. if it's there just to shut this down, i think rod rosenstein and every senior official have an obligation to step it down and be exactly clear the department of justice being abused and is being closed down by the white house. it cannot stand. >> it's stunning to see a republican white house batter a republican-run justice department. >> it is, but it's not schmeisering from this president. i agree with matt. i think this window between now and january when democrats take control is really important. frankly, we all know now the president watches cnn because he saw that interview on cnn. he didn't read something. he saw it. that was the guy he picked. >> i feel like i'm out of word at this point. >> you are all out of word? >> i'm all out of words. the other thing, here's the other thing to watch i think

this trump sense of being threatened is not about taking back the house. i was looking for these three days as we prepared for this. i thought sessions being fired was a possiblity. i thought on the other side of the story indicting don jr. in this window. friday is the day normally when rosenstein does indictments. on my calendar, sessions fired on wednesday and mueller indicted on friday. >> i thought that would happen this week. >> i trust bob mueller. bob mueller always makes a move in moments of the greatest criticism coming his way from the white house. i think if trump shuts this down, mueller has a plan b. >> that report will be -- >> in attorney's offices. >> democrats in the house will have some type of mueller report

in their hand. >> all right. my thanks to everyone at this hour. all of our guest versus come and gone over the course of the hour. that does it for us. i'm stumbling over my words more than usual. i didn't sleep much last night. chuck won't make any excuses, will you? >> i'm trying to figure occupant what news psych raleigh we in? >> as to if you start with what happened, can you work your way back with the course of an hour with what happened two hours ago. >> i'll try to figure that out. i'm as loopy as you are. it's wednesday, a divide vote, votes for government. oh, wow, caught me sipping more coffee. good evening, i'm chuck todd here in new york city. welcome to president trump has followed through on his promise to fire attorney general jeff