much. happy thanksgiving to yours. sign up for that news line at signup.axios.com. >> happy thanksgiving, everyone. "morning joe" is starting right now. >> he's not afraid to sit down. it just doesn't seem necessary. it doesn't rise to that level. >> no. i'm going to a war zone. we are with saudi arabia. we're staying with saudi arabia. >> afraid of bob mueller, afraid of being in aer war zone, and afraid to even challenge saudi arabia. but after all, there's nothing to fear by fear itself. good morning. it is wednesday, november 21st. as the scope and the scale of the midterms becomes clear, we're getting the chance to see the worst of donald trump and we're watching his devastating

impact on this country and on his republican party play out on vivid display. you know, regardless of what republicans try to tell you, there was no split decision in the midterms. democrats keep racking up more house seats by the day and they're going to end up winning the national popular congressional vote in the house by over 8%. that's a historic route. in fact, there's never been as big a win as the democrats have had in the house this off term election. unfortunately, we're learning by the hour that a repudiated, a rejected donald trump is more unhinged than the donald trump we watched the first two years and yesterday brought us a come pendus of the bleakest elements of donald trump's immorality, openly siding with the saudis.

even as their leader was declared a cold blooded murderer by the u.s. intel community, saudi thugs, they brought a bone saw you to ambush an american resident in a washington post columnist. as the the "new york times" reported, repeatedly and petulantly demanding the tools of the justice department would be used to go after his perceived political enemies, hillary clinton and james comey, likely defending his daughter's personal use of e-mails for government business with dozens of unanswered questions that still suggest that her conduct could have been every bit as egregious as hillary clinton had's. we just don't know yet. he was also standing by a corrupt manifestly acting attorney general and the most racial racially insensitive sent runoff

in decades. when he's done over the past two years. he's forfeited any claim of being a legitimate president. he did that long ago. i find it hard to see how he could seek, let alone win the presidency in 2020. i don't think he's going to run because at the end of the day, he didn't want to win in 2016. as i told you time and time again. with donald trump, it is all about money. sell out to the saudis. even when your intel community tells you that they're run by a murderer. no problem with donald trump. it's not about america's reputation on the globe. it's not about what's best for middle east policy. for donald trump, it's what is best for donald trump and not even politically, but financially. what deals can he make in two years when he leaves the white

house? vladimir putin, he murders journalists. he assassinates political rivals. no problem. never mind what the cia says about the rushenans trying to subvert american democracy. never mind that the head of his own homeland security department said if vladimir putin and russia post a risk to american democracy. donald trump said i don't believe the intel communities. putin gave me his word. let's see what is done two years from now between donald trump and russia. this isn't about america. this isn't about the republican peat. this isn't about a re-election campaign. this is about donald trump gathering as many chances he can until he leaves office because he's not thinking about

re-election. he's thinking about all the money he can make as ex president so if it doesn't make sense to you, what he's doing, maybe you should just remember what woodward and bernstein said during watergate. follow the money. and this is not political money. it's personal money. and it's not money in trump's pocket now. it's money that he thinks he's going to make two, three, four, five years from now. when you can go to the saudis and say, hey, i stood by you when the cia had evidence that you lured a washington post columnist into your embassy, strangled him and then took a bone saw to hill am and cut him.

that's what this is about. and guess what? it's only going to get worse for donald trump. with robert mueller closing in, trump has destroyed his own presidency and he is showing us his soul a little more every day. rather some would say his lack of one. in the wake of the midterm super shellacking, the entire republican party is still standing in full support of its dear leader. don't show me your tweets. don't give me your speeches. show me your courage. show me that you want to put your country, your party ahead of donald trump. but time is running out. for the sake of history and for the fake of the conservative moment. and one of the nation's two

political party. good men and good women who want a future for the gop need to stand up and speak out today. or therefore their face will be fully intertwined with this man who is crashing and bunning right before their eyes. you think 2018 was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. let's bring in the author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haas. we have contributing editor of the weekly standing and columnist john pedoritz, also author of "freedom is an inside job," zane absalbe and editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. david, i just -- it is hard to square up what the cia has concluded, what our intel community has concluded, what the world community has

concluded, what our allies have concluded and what donald trump said yesterday. how do we square it and how do we move forward as a country trying to on be the leader of the free world? >> this was in very unpresidential style, almost a chat or a shout that you have from the president with a tape recorder running. it gain by saying america fist with an ex cha magz poiclamatio. and the subtext for me was values last. the president put aside the judgment of the cia that the crown print of saudi arabia was likely responsible for the killing of my colleague and friend, jamal khashoggi, and trump said maybe he knew and maybe he didn't, but the

implication was he didn't really care. he was fog to make his decision based on economic interests, saudi help in fighting iran. throughout the statement, it was real politic, as we like to say. i think the thrust of this was a decision to give mohammed bin salman a pass. he will be in paris at the g20 summit. turks have said that their president, erdogan, one of the sharpest critics of saudi arabia said the killing took place in their consulate in istanbul. that's an early sign of people kind of normalizing this

terrible crime. he was killed and dismembered and our president says basically life goes on and america first. >> richard haas, despite the military power, despite our economic prowess, our economic dominance, for millions of people across the globe that look to the united states, idea. america is a dream. america is what ronald reagan said a city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see. that dimmed a great deal yesterday. it's dimmed a great deal over the past few years. what do we do? what do we do as a country? the day after our intel community says that the saudi leader is a cold blooded murderer and donald trump says in effect, that's okay with me.

>> it sends the message to the world that it's commercial interests first. it's not strategic interests, it's not our values, it's an extraordinarily narrow almost pinched notion of the national interest, something we haven't seen before, and it reinforces what's going on here at home, joe. it's not simply what we're saying and not saying in our foreign policy. it's also what we're showing. a big part of foreign policy is the example we set. so this combination of a cynical -- i would use the world a moral -- it's so amoral, it bleeds into the immoral. and in american democracy, the courts and media are being attacked. it is essentially saying this is not the united states. this is not the american that people thought they knew. and it's a green light to the chinese to do what they're doing

against the uighurs, the saudis for what they're doing, they're shly saying we wi essentially saying we were no longer take this into account. you've got a pass. we've gone a long way from 10 inch containment to trump's mercantilism. so long as the balance of trade is moving in our direction, we'll pretty much look the other way now if you say and do things that are abhoren to ut to us. i would not not just democrats who now have the house and the hearing capability, but the republicans, too. this foreign policy during so much of the cold war has been bipartisan. so i think it's important that it be republicans as well as democrats ste up and challenge this and basically remind people that american foreign policy has a broader foundation. >> i was just going to say, you

know, there are scenes in movies set in washington in which some populist figure ends up in the oval office. there's a scene where they basically say, cut the crap. we have to let this murderer go or we have to let this happen because this is the truth about america. the truth is that we have to deal with the dangerous world and you've got to get your hands dirty and you're too pure and this is how things really are and then the populist leader says, not in my country. and you're not going to do all this. and this is trump basically being the villain in a hollywood melodrama saying saudi arabia, what are we supposed to do? they're giving us $400 billion and that is all we can have.

there is more than a kernel of truth to this. this has been a mercantilist-oil relationship for years, cincinnati the oil embargo of the late 70s we have been in the position where we have turned a blind eye to a lot of the terrible things that saudi arabia has done. trump is just elevating the worst real policy instincts of american foreign policy to the level at which, you know, draining everything else from it except this kind of villainus real politic idea which is just chilling beyond words. >> and it's important to real, when donald trump talks about saudi arabia, even his claims are exaggerated. there's some outright false hoods. he talks about all the money we

have in military cells to saudi arabia. he's lying about that. when there's this belief that there's great dependance on saudi oil. well, no one was looking. the government was doing very little. american oil, member and women, created an energy revolution. this century. we don't need saudi arabia the way we needed saudi arabia in 1974, in 1994. even in 2004. they are not as critical to us today as donald trump is suggesting they were. and, you know, zaneb, it's so interesting that john was talking about the scene from a hollywood movie. it reminds me that back during the iraq war, i prihad friends m the middle east who every time i was around him, he would go on and on about how terrible we were.

and finally after the 500th certainli sermon from him, i said if america is so bad, why are you still here? he said because in america, it always ends like a hollywood movie. you make every possible mistake that you can make, but in the end, you redeem yourself. in the end, you prove that you are what reagan said you were. and i do think that's how a lot of people look at this country, but right now, that is a long way off, isn't it? >> indeed. i think the president's statement was betrayal of american soul and in my opinion is an insult to every american and the values that every manner hold in their soul. and i spent yesterday rehearing and reading everything jamal khashoggi said. and i want to actually remind us

what he said. he was saying one of his last statements saying i cannot think of america adding pressure on saudi arabia unless a real tragedy happens. a real tragedy did happen in his death and we are letting that loose. and we need to go back. let's go back to what jamal khashoggis was asking for. he was asking for public participation in vaughn. the president's statement saying he was disloyal to the government, an enemy of the nation. he was not an enemy of saudi arabia, jamal khashoggi. he was saying -- he's against a one man rule and saying we need some form of public participation. don't call it democracy. avoid one voice only leading the country. he was pro msb, the crown prince 2030 vision which, by the way, when you hear the crown prince in arabic speaking, he was

promising not only saudi arabia, but the rest of the arab world prosperity. he said i will make you the europe of the future. so emotionally, with 60% under the age of 30, actually, he does have support. and we do need to put that in perspective a as we deal with him in here. so it's not necessarily -- it's like there is a way to add pressure. there is a way to help wars mall khashoggi's call out for reform in saudi arabia. and it doesn't have to throw the baby and the bath water. it has to be constructive. and what the president did is throw all of that to the side. the only hope i have is the war in yemen and that we actually do something about the war in yemen. save the children yesterday issued a report, 58,000 children have died in the last three years in the war in yemenen. 14 million people are on the brink of malnutrition. that is exclusively because of

the war in saudi arabia. who bombed foods factories, who bombing civilians, so we need to do something. we cannot let jamal khashoggi's death go in vain. >> jonathan lamere, you look at the balance sheet on what the saudis have done from the inside since donald trump have been president. it's in the red. a lot of that red is the blood that's being spilled in yemen. that's the saudi war. and they're making us, unfortunately, their partners in that. >> and yesterday when we saw yesterday it was inevitable since the moment of this murder. the president has wanted to get to this point for a few reasons. first on of all, it's a nakedly transactional foreign policy. american first means american

economics, not necessarily american ideals. i was in the oval office when we interviewed him a few days after this happened, and he spoke to king salman who said rogue killers may have been part of this and the president parroted that. his first foreign trip as president, riyadh. he felt that they flattered him and he wanted to support them. saudi arabia obviously was a significant part of america's middle east policy. choosing it against iran and so on. and we saw that he, over the last few weeks, even as there were more evidence that mbs was

behind this murder, that there was more international pressure for him to cob item condemn it, that he wasn't going to change the fundamental nature of this relationship. and that statement yesterday, that came from him. that was dictated by the president. that is something we're not used to seeing in oval office statements. >> and not to beat a dead horse here, richard haas, but what does russia and saudi arabia have in common? well, donald trump's family has bragged that most of their money through the years have come from russians. don jr. bragged about that. eric did, as well. and what did donald trump brag on the campaign? about the hundreds of millions of dollars that he made from the saudis and one campaign stop in 2016 after another. again, not to keep driving this

point home, but people have to understand for donald trump. he's not thinking about balance of power. he's not thinking about middle east peace he's thinking about his own wallet. >> and that's what these have in common. >> it's interesting, it would be one thing if we were compromising our values for some strategic ends. what strategic ends have the saudis served? it's given iran an amazing opening. they kidnap a lebanese prime minister. they break solidarity by trying to isolate gutter. they haven't influenced the middle east. the saudis are taking what they see as their own interests. so our so-called ally, what are

we getting from this? i do not see that we are being nearly tough enough with the saudis and that's the pattern was lb was with these other authoritarian regimes. what are we gettinger for an american foreign policy that isn't standing up for themselves? >> you're right. we're getting nothing here. it's a very bad deal. david ignatius, the cia has you now told us that our intel community knows that mbs set up jamal khashoggi to go in, they tortured him, they buried him, and they did that to silence his voice. this morning, as someone who worked with him, as someone who

considered him a friend, tell us what khashoggi would say today and what message he delivered that was so dangerous that the crown prince of saudi arabia had to torture and kill him to silence him. >> you know, joe, that's just the right question. what was threatening about jamal khashoggi was that he told the truth and he wouldn't stop. they tried to intimidate him going back more than a year. they essentially put his children under house arrest. his son couldn't leave saudi arabia. he kept thinking, should i stop? should i give up? and it just wasn't in him.

he was a truth teller. that is what i think we need to hold on to. telling the truth gets him angry. we need to hold on to that. i think he's frightened every person who has decent values, who believes we have a stand on the side of truth tellers like khashoggi. tens, hundreds, thousands of people who have that courage and want to speak out and they'll keep speaking out. >> as they speak out, donald trump calls them the enemy of the people. and donald trump's attack on the press is seen by auto accuratcr of the world. and they emulate him and imitate him. and a journalist from "the

washington post" may be dead because of it. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on ivanka trump's use of her private e-mail for government business. the president is defending her daughter after years -- his daughter after years of slamming hillary clinton and yelling lock her up. speaking of the former secretary of state, new reporting says the president wanted to order the justice department to prosecute her and james comey, the former fbi director. we have the "new york times" michael schmidt with you. he joins us with his big story. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back watching "" we'll be right back presenting the internet!

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this is moving day with the best in-home wifi experience and millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. and this is moving day with reliable service appointments in a two-hour window so you're up and running in no time. show me decorating shows. this is staying connected with xfinity to make moving... simple. easy. awesome. stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. . comey is a liar, and not only on this stuff. he's been leaking for years. he is guilty of crimes and if we had a justice department that was doing their job instead of -- >> mr. president -- >> because of the fact that they have this witch-hunt going on

with people in the justice department that shouldn't be there, i've taken the position -- and i don't have to take this position and maybe i'll change -- that i will not be involved with the justice department. i will wait until this is over. the democrats hated comey more than any human being. he actually did hillary clinton a big faf because she should be in jail. >> unbelievable. president trump continues to publicly rail against hillary clinton. bad timing, mr. president. you should talk to your daughter and game comey and now the "new york times" is reporting that donald trump pressured top law enforcement officials, including the acting attorney general, about investigating hillary clinton, his last political rival, and james comey, former fbi director. two people tell the times that president trump told then white house counsel don mcghan in the spring that he wanted to order the justice department to

prosecute former fbi director james comey and hillary clinton. the sources say mcghan told the president he didn't have that authority. while he could request an investigation, it would prompt abuse of power accusations. with us now, michael schmidt of the "new york times." mike equal, big headline, big story. what's the importance of it? the importance of it is the insight into how donald trump sees the justice department. he sees the justice department as a tool, shouldly, to figure out the political problems that he has. he believes and has said privately and at times publicly that the attorney general is someone that should work for him, that should be loyal to him, that should put his interests first. and this is sort of along those lines. it's about using the justice department to fix political problems that he has. trump ultimately does not is order the justice department to

prosecute these folks. he did not have that authority and he did not ask them, at least that we know of, through the white house counsel to investigate them. but he was warned about the problems of this and that there could be significant blow back. and the interesting thing about how this all fits together is that trump did this. he explored the idea at a time when he was under investigation for obstruction of justice. so he's being looked at for his dealings with the justice department about whether he has essentially abused his power and he continues to talk about this. >> yeah. jonathan, it's attacking the attackers and investigating the investigators. it sounds like something that devin nunes has been doing on the hill. >> so michael, my question to you is, i think trump is operating on the basis that a lot of conservatives believed

that eric holder was as fundamentally serving as obama's wing man at doj and using his powers to protect president obama. i mean, i think trump said this repeatedly on the campaign trail in 2015 and 2016 and the debates and that sort of thing. though he said it in criticism, he seems to believe that this idea of how it works should be the model that he should get to follow. do i have that right? >> yeah. and he has said this privately in the white house several times. he says that obama had holder, jfk are rfk, and then he says where is my roy cohen, referring to the "new york times" lawyer who was essentially his fixer. that's what he wants at the justice department. he moved right after the election to get rid of jeff sessions because he thought that he was not an attorney general

that put his interests first. he blamed jeff sessions for recusing himself from the russia investigation. that was something that he never got over. he thought that was disloyal. the central question of the trump presidency, one of the questions here, is that why is it that donald trump wants so much loyalty from these folks that are atop his law enforcement agencies? is he simply someone who throughout his life just prizes loyalty, puts a high price on it, thinks it's really important or is there more there? but time and time again, he wants these folks, political ally, someone he feels comfortable with who will be there, why is it that he wants people like that there? >> hey, michael. it's jonathan lamiere. when the president was warned in

addition not to do this, can you tell us why mcgahn told the president not to. the acting attorney general, mr. whitaker, is someone the president views as an ally. >> so what the white house counsel's office did is they wrote this memo about the problems that could come of having the justice department investigate things. they said, look, you have the authority to say to the justice department, hey, will you look at this issue, will you investigate this thing, will you look at this problem. but they said that is not a great idea because you can get into all sorts of problems. congress could come after you. judges could throw out charges. you could be impeached. voters could vote you out of office and get rid of you. you need to stay away from it. this is a bad idea. now, this has not stopped the

president from trying to weigh in on criminal investigations. mcgahn, the white house counsel who left about a month ago was seen as a guardrail. he was seen as someone that stopped the president from doing a lot of the things that he wanted to do that may have been illegal or unethical or politically problematic. famously, mcgahn was not able to stop trump from firing the fbi director jim comey. that went forward. you know, mcgahn essentially joef saw the process of how they were going to explain that to the public. but since then, mcgahn was much more insistent with trump and was able to sort of curtail his desires to do things that could get him into trouble. at the same time, along the way, mcgahn racked up a a lot of things he stopped the president from doing. >> michael schmidt, thank you very much. we greatly appreciate it. great reporting again. and it is important to remember the people that have acted as

guardrails, dawn mcgahn acted as a guardrail time and time again. you have the director of national intelligence who has acted as a guardrail. you have the cia directorer, past and president, acting as guardrails. the fbi director came out in this piece that michael wrote that donald trump is very disappointed that christopher ray is, quote, weak. his definition of weak is someone that won't be a hatchet man for him. time and again, there have been people around this president who have acted as guardrails. let's hope the elected republicans in the house and the senate will will start perhaps following their examples and putting their country ahead of their political parties. still ahead, federal judge deals another blow to president trump's immigration agenda. we have new reporting about how the courts are also providing resistance, a formidable obstacle to the administration'ser hard line

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>> i will be issuing both peas and carrot aess a presidential pardon. unfortunately, i can't guarantee that your pardons won't be enjoined by the 9th circuit. always happens. i'm going to put in a major complaint because you cannot win if you're us with a case in the 9th circuit. and i think it's a disgrace when every case gets filed in the 9th circuit because they know that's not law. that's not what this country stands for. and the 9th circuit is something we have to take a look at. because it's not fair.

>> the 9th circuit is something we're going to have to look at? president trump could have said that about his policies in texas. we're going to have to take a look at that? read the constitution. not all circuits have to -- to the president of the united states. and that was president trump yesterday with responses to a federal judge's decision to temporarily block his administration from denying asylum requests to anyone not entering the u.s. through a port of entry. with us now, we have kimberly add kins. this morning, she writes about why this latest immigration fight could be donald trump's could be donald trump's

toughest. donald trump has been slowed downtime and again. what does this look like and where does this end up? >> yeah. so in this case, it was an attempt by the administration to limit the way that asylum seekers can make such claims saying only people who come to a port of entry would be allowed to make an asylum claim that was made in the lead you to the midterms on the migrants making their way to the southern border as a way of showing that they're going to get tough and not have open borders. well, this judge in san francisco said, well, no. although the president does have broad authority on immigration policy, he cannot go conrather to the law and the law career states that asylum seekers can make author claims, however they

enter the country. and the idea is we want -- the administration didn't put forward enough support for this idea that this was an invasion and that there was some national security issue in order to counteract that strong policy in favor of allowing asylum seekers. there are limits even when it comes to the president for policy. >> american institutions are stronger than any one man, any one woman. this week has been a very good week for those arguments, especially when you look at what courts have done, not just the

9th circuit, the d.c. circuit, two trump appointees have given this administration setbacks, including a set back on the jim acosta case, something that obviously meant an awful lot to the president. you had a trump appointee there, which means he was a federalist society approved judge. and we're seeing it from the left, from the center, from the right. >> look, the 9th circuit is, in fact, and has been for 25 years the most liberal of the circuits and there's been a lot of trouble, i think -- and the

president mentions where appeals are brought before the 9th circuit because they have a greater likelihood of being considered in the way liberals would like. having said that, there are seven vacancies right now on the 9th circuit. so when trump says i need to complain, appoint seven new judges. appoint judges that can get through the senate because one of the people who was appointed couldn't get through the senate last year. appoint the judges and you will then have a circuit court that will be, you know, fully complemented and in which you would have a greater balance instead of, like, whining because, you know, a case goes against you on a matter like asylum which -- of which in this case there is enormously -- there's an enormous bag log of history about how people are supposed to apply for asylum in

the united states. >> yeah. this happens. david ignatius, you had the obama administration making similar complaints about how a district court judge in texas could enjoin them from moving forward on national legislation. if we want to have a discussion about that, we can have a discussion about that. i'm sure barack obama would be very strong opinions. it may not be that different than donald trump's. but the system is the system and some decisions the 9th circuit has made over the last two years have been, in fact, overturned by the united states supreme court. our system works. >> ow judiciary system is an independent branch of government. it demonstrates that all the time. i do note that the supreme court you is changing, the additional judge, justice kavanaugh, is the most visible sign of that. i want to ask kimberly as we

think about these immigration cases and other major cases, are these moving towards the supreme court? do you have a sense of the supreme court getting ready to decide some fundamental cases in law that will be that will be guardrails for this administration, or maybe not? what do you think? >> yeah, i think it depends on how these cases move forward. i mean, yes, the appointment of justice kavanaugh did shift the court fundamentally to the right. i think on substantive issues that come up to the court, it will be much more conservative, where they were talking about abortion or other things. but, on the other hand, you also have justices, including neil gorsuch, who president trump appointed, who is very skeptical of giving agencies, for example, too much deference when it comes to how they interpret their own rules, and it is really for the courts to decide, how rules are to be implemented. you can see a situation where

there are trump administration regulations that are going to get a really hard look from this court, depending how they are, and may not have the rulings on their side. i mean, last year, justice gorsuch ruled against the president in an immigration case, where he was trying to hasten deportations, and justice gorsuch was on the opposite side of that. i think it depends on how the cases come forward and what's the basis of the challenge. >> kimberly atkins, thank you so much for being with us. we appreciate it. we'll be reading your reporting in the "boston herald." the latest on the russia investigati investigation. we'll talk to two former colleagues of bob mueller after the president submits his answers to the special counsel's questions. "morning joe" will be right back. " will be right back presenting the internet!

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let's talk a little more about saudi arabia. we've talked about it on this show for some time, that arab

leaders fear iran more than israel right now. i'm wondering whether that fear will keep most sunni leaders faithful and in line with saudi arabia, even in these troubled times. >> you know, the way i see it, it's a manufactured fear. iran is not the fear. fundamentalists are the fear. that's the fear. and the fundamentalists happen from sunnis and shias. that manufactured fear is a political fear, in my opinion. this is an opportunity, going back to this moment in history, with what we do with saudi arabia. this is an opportunity to bring it back home. we need reform in saudi arabia. there are lots of people still in prison and being tortured, according to the "washington post." women and activists are being tortured right now in saudi arabia. we need these to be released. we need to end the war in yemen, which on every weapon sold and bombed in yemen is an american manufactured weapon. we need to look at our own role

in that, as well. we need to understand that the $450 billion that president trump talked about with saudi arabia is simply a lie. saudi arabia cannot even afford $450 billion in contracts. they don't even pay their public servants on time. then we have to change -- we have to look into public participation in saudi arabia. it has lost credibility vis-a-vis the palestinians. we need change. >> david ignatius, will sunni leaders remain lawyer, despite the killing of a "washington post" journalist? >> i think you want to distinguish between saudi arabia and the king and nbs's son. nbs is seen as the hard edge of the power, the architect in

yemen, certainly the person behiennd the killing of jamal khashoggi. that's the con clieclusion of o cia. i think sunni leadership will continue to be important. every time i go to saudi arabia, i'm struck by how young people there want the modern world that we live in. they feel connected to it, with their phones, their devices. i think that's the trick of the next decade, is to help people make that transition to the world that they want to be living in. >> all right. we have a lot more ahead on the president's statement on saudi arabia. former deputy national security adviser to president obama ben roads will join us. we want to thank zain, david ignatius, and john for being with us. "morning joe" will be right back. ll be right back o, but not in time. hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge

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♪ it's more that n a feeling ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's wednesday, november 21st. with us now, the inspiration behind the boston pump, professor and author of the book "the death of expertise," his expertise is the rock band, boston, especially the debut album. we bring you tom nichols. also, jonathan la mere. executive producer of "the cirrus," john heilemann. a rock snob who will take issue of any praising of boston. also, the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. former deputy national security adviser to president obama, ben rhodes. and nbc news capitol hill correspondent and co-host of kcdc, kasie hunt.

she does five-hour boston rock blocks on her show. tom, i have a tweet from yesterday, where we thought we were going to be talking about a lot of the news of the day. instead, you said in your tweet you were going to be coming on here to, and i quote you, to reaffirm the awesomeness that is boston's first album in the face of repeated slurs against its greatness. we have rock snob heilemann standing by. you go first on the awesomeness of boston. >> my views are my own, and not the views of the navy or the government, except when it comes to the first boston album, which no rational person could deny as one of the greatest debuts in history. to hate it is purely an act of snobbery. if john feels that way, john, i respect your opinion, but you're wrong. >> i don't really understand why i've been cast as the hate the first boston album.

>> tell the students, hate america. what say you? >> did i trash the first boston album at some point that i've forgotten about? >> no. you're just a snob. >> i see. >> rock snobs hate boston. >> oh, not me. "more than a feeling," baby. >> okay. >> i think joe was setting us up, john. >> okay. well, this is crossfire, but this is not. i was expecting a fight here. >> i'm sorry. >> joe, i don't get crosswise with the naval war college. i just don't. >> you shouldn't. so, john, this is going to be a very sharp turn, but it seems to me, we saw yesterday in donald trump -- and it is hard to really say this -- but one of his more unhinged days. one of his more unhinged moments. a statement on the killing of "washington post" journalist

that actually was aastounding, even by trumpian standards. where are we now, as democrats rack up one win after another? >> i think there's the political conte context, the second part of your question, is put the president in a bleaker, darker, more defensive, more paranoid, more reactive posture than he's been, and maybe that's part of the psychological explanation for some of his behavior. i think that it is not really the explanation for this particular behavior which, joe, i listened to you carefully in the first hour, and i've heard you on this point before. it is one of the places where we have great agremt. -- agreement. i think the president is genuinely one of the most disgraceful elements of the presidency. not the most unhinged. there is a rationality to it. the president, as you said earlier today, cares about the president. he mostly cares about his own and his family's money. that's been the case before he became president.

it's the case now that he is president. he continues in ways that none of us really fully understand, through his repeatedly and relentless violations, the fact his businesses continue to operation all over the world and continue to make money in ways that no one really understands. we have no real visibility or transparency on it. he is going to continue to make money for himself and his family when he gets out of the white house. so when we analyze his behavior on areas related to foreign policy, areas related to economic policy, areas related to regulatory policy, we rarely, i think, apply a sufficient degree of rigor to analyzing them through that lens. when it comes to this issue, when it comes to mbs, when it comes to saudi arabia, when it comes to the killing of this american resident, this journalist, jamal khashoggi, we see him at his most morally bankrupt, but in a moral -- displaying moral bankruptcy that has its own logic.

it's the logic of someone who cares about the long-term financial interest of himself and his family more than he cares about the country. i say that with -- there's no way to convey the kind of abject horror that everyone should feel about whom that could be said. i don't think there is any other explanation for the way in which he's handled this. he's done it repeatedly and has sided with his own bank account, fast, present, and future, over the assessment of the u.s. intelligence agencies, and over the concerns -- over what the moral sanctity of an american resident who was a journalist who was slaughtered. >> tom nichols, let me bring you back in here. you wrote an important piece for the "atlantic" about why you left the republican party. i think you may have to do weekly installments. you certainly are given material. we've talked about today how the

courts, even conservative justices, even federalist society judges, have stood up to the president's excesses. we've seen it happen in the intel community. we've seen it across the government. bureaucrats standing up to this president's worst accesses. all we got yesterday was a tweet from bob corker and a couple of other people. why won't our former party, why won't their leaders, instead of slandering a navy s.e.a.l. icon and hero, why won't they stand up to the president now? if not now, when? >> well, to go back to a point john was making, it is about the president's personal interests, but it is almost more than that. it is like the president tries to figure out where a large number of decent people are going to object and be angry about something, and he tries to get on the other side of that, almost intentionally to be shocking. that brings along his base. because anything that sort of

shocks the foreign policy community, or shocks the majority of people in this country, is something that they will ride along with him about. the republican party fears that. they fear always getting on the wrong side of the president and, you know, 30% or 35% of the public who are going to jump all over them for not getting on board with this kind of hard edged, you know, the hell with everything, hey, if people get dismembered, that's the way the world is, kind of approach. and i think it's shocking. i mean, in some ways, i think that's the more shocking story than the president. because the president, he does what he does. i mean, you can't be surprised by any of this two years in. but for the republicans not just to be silent, but to speak up when they could have just said nothing, that's something that's really surprising. to have the gop out there tweeting, supporting it, and the rest of the republican party just sitting in sort of embarrassed or supportive even

silence. >> and doing all of this barely a week after one of the worst losses -- well, actually, if you just look at the vote total, now about an 8.8 million vote spread, the largest defeat in vote total in the history of this republic for midterm elections. so the voters have spoken up. the judges are speaking out and pushing back. the intel community is telling the truth to the president. but the republicans aren't. the "wall street journal" is. the editorial board out with a pointed piece this morning, entitled "trump's crude realpolitik." the yojournal notes missing fro trump's statement is missing any american values. this is what they write, in part, we are aware of no

president, not even such ruthless pragmatists as johnson, who would have written a public statement like this, without so much of a grace note about america's abiding values and principles. ronald reagan especially pursued a hard line, often controversial foreign policy, against soviet communism. but he did so with a balance of unblinkered realism and american idealism. mr. trump seems incapable of such balance. the risk is that mr. trump's public reduction of the relationship to a crass interest is that the crown prince will feel that he can do anything and suffer no du.s. support. we hope secretary of state mike pompeo, and national security adviser john bolton, are delivering a much tougher message in public. here is part of the take

yesterday from fox news host shep smith. >> president trump stands with saudi arabia, after the intelligence community concluded the saudi crown prince ordered the murder of the "wall street journal" journalist, jamal khashoggi. today, the president insulted the murder victim and sided with the saudis, who said, our cia is wrong. the point is, the intelligence agencies have determined that the crown prince and day to day runner of the kingdom, our ally, murdered a guy, who has american children. >> from the "wall street journal" to fox news to ben rhodes. you don't hear that very often, ben. >> usually a different segue. >> it is today, which i guess is a good sign we should take hope in. yesterday, you said this wasn't

an american first policy. you said this was an american farcel policy. explain. >> it's been clear now for a long time that mbs was responsible for this killing. frankly, for the cia to arrive at this assessment, we have to know trump has been aware for weeks that there was information in the system that pointed to mbs being responsible for this killing. what was interesting to me is, for some time, he tried to craft a cover story. there were road killers. they seemed to be trying to find a way around the truth, to just get past this. what was so jarring about yesterday is he essentially comes out and says, okay, maybe this guy did do it, but i don't care, because they're giving us a lot of money, right? he's essentially saying, american foreign policy is for sale. american values don't even r register in that equation. it is an incredibly dangerous thing. if you're a journalist anywhere

in the world, your hilife just t more dangerous today than yesterday. the united states is not going to speak up for you, particularly if there is someone who will pay money to the president of the united states. secondly, this entirely emboldened mohammed bin salman, who escalated a war in yemen, which led to a famine which can put people's lives at risk. what will he do next? basically, the signal not just to mbs but to everybody in the region, everybody in the saudi royal family who might serve as a check on mbs is, no, all our chips are on the table behind him. if he starts a war, if he wants to kill other journalists, if he wants to crack down more, donald trump just gave him the cover to do that. that is a chilling thing. i don't think there's any american president, of either party, who would ever write a statement anywhere near what we saw yesterday, in terms of its total advocation of moral leadership. >> exactly what the "wall street journal" said and, i think, what most people in washington would

agree with. caskasie hunt, what are the republicans saying on the hill? what will the republican leadership do on the hill? lindsey graham seemed, for a short while at least, to channel his inner john mccain again and bitterly attack the saudi government. any word from any plans by the republican senators to stand up, speak out, and pass some legislation? >> you're right, joe. lindsey graham called mbs beyond toxic. i think it says something, that for the first time in, i don't know how long, lindsey graham and rand paul actually publicly agreed with one another. they are, as you may remember, not exactly the best of friends. rand paul also coming out and saying that this is all ridiculous and this isn't -- shouldn't be where america is standing. thei issue is that they don'tdi. they could try to block or put roadblocks up to the arms deal.

they have already invoked the magnitsky act, which imposes automatic sanctions. they're waiting for a response from the administration on this. you know, the reality is, mitch mcconnell has shown an incredible reluctance to do anything on the senate floor that antagonizes president trump. we've seen that pattern play itself out over and over and over and over again. we were talking about this earlier this week on the show. i'm not sure that the human rights and values conversation is enough to overshadow the political realities that are driving the way the republican party is tied to this president now. >> richard haas, you know things are bad when the iranian foreign minister actually the tweeting at you and actually brings up a pretty good point. mr. trump bizarrely devotes the first paragraph of his shameful

statement on saudi atrocities to accuse iran of every sort of malfeasance he can think of. perhaps we're also responsible for the california fires because we didn't help rake the forests. just like the finns do. richard, this tweet aside, talk about the impact of yesterday. donald trump's statement and, basically, his absolution, granting absolution on a foreign leader who murdered and chopped up a "washington post" columnist. >> bottom line, it diminishes the standing of the united states around the world, quite simply. it obviously encourages others to follow suit. we're essentially saying that american foreign policy is about commercial interests, not about strategic interest, not about values. you can do kind of whatever you want. you can murder journalists. you can invade countries and so forth, so long has you continue to buy american.

that's okay. normal administrations, take a step back, what a normal administration would probably do against the backdrop of this murder, against the backdrop of the saudi war in yemen, would essentially send an envoy to the king and say, hey, we care about our relationship with you, but we cannot have business as usual, so long as this guy is running your government. you've got to do something about it. we're not going to put you who to put there or embarrass you, but you've got to know this most important bilateral relationship will not prospect, so long as he's running things. the saudi would, in the saudi way, i think, take care of things. they'd come up with a different leadership. to give him a blank check against his backdrop of impulsive, reckless decision make, not only ignores what he's done but, again, i wouldn't assume we won't go from bad to worse. we should be very careful that this young man might say, hey, the way i can get well here is

if i start something with iran. if i can cause a crisis with iran, the israelis and the americans are going to feel compelled to rally around me. no one is going to be talking about jamal khashoggi. we ought to be very careful that he does not take this as license to make a bad situation in the middle east that much worse. i would think far more pressing right now than north korea, which we're essentially ignoring, i would think the most pressing international crisis in the world is this nexus of saudi arabia, israel, and iran, and the united states might well be signaling that a war there is something that we would tolerate. >> john heilemann, i want you to go to ben rhodes with a question, but before you go, as we talked about the republicans in the senate and the house not standing up to the president and his outrageous behavior, i'm reading a dave wasserman tweet from eight hours ago, where dave wasserman says, the democrats

national lead in raw house votes, now 8.8 million, just broke the record for the largest for each party in the history of midterm elections. the largest defeat of any party in the history of midterm elections. i mean, the republican party just had that handed to them. the question is, why do you continue to blindly stand by this president when you don't have to listen to us every morpimorp i -- morning telling you it'll lead you to political doom. you have 8.8 million, you know -- i was going to say elvis fans can't be wrong. tom would say, boston fans can't be wrong. you have 8.8 million reasons why this makes no political sense. even if you're the most cynical politician ever, mitch mcconnell, why would you lead your party down this pathway and not stand up to donald trump?

>> well, joe, i think the reality is that we've discussed the bang rupkruptcy of the repun party on a number of occasions. you and tom were two who testify to a party so bankrupt that you loved it and now have left it. part of the reason is that i think a lot of the republican politicians are not caring about the long-term fate of whatever the republican party is now and what it will be in the future. they obviously abandoned that a long time ago when they decided to sign up with donald trump and back him on a series of policies and deviations from republican orthodoxy that have made the republican party -- i don't know what to call it. it is not an organized system of thought, belief, or political agenda or ideology anymore. they made that decision a long time ago. all they care about in most instances, individually, is their own fate. they are not wrong in assessing that their most proximate threat is being primaried by a pro-trump republican who could, with the president's backing,

take them out in a primary. if you're mitch mcconnell, the specific example, someone up for re-election two years from now, will almost certainly win if he is the nominee in kentucky, but he is afraid of standing up to donald trump because he understands trump can mobilize a part of the republican base that could defeat him. ben, i want to ask you this question, as joe asked me to ask you, but it's been on my mind for a little bit. just step back on the mbs question. it seems to me -- we talk about all the -- like where he is now, this young man. he seems exposed to everyone now for being a kind of monster. it wasn't that long ago that many people, republicans, democrats, thoughtful neoliberals, neoconservatives, were praising this guy as the reformer who would bring a kind of progress to the kingdom and, essentially, to the region, that most people broadly speaking for kind of in favor of.

a lot of people said, yeah, he's dicey, but you know what, we'll live with that. >> yeah. >> how do we -- were people just blind to this, or has he gotten worse? is it that they were willing to overlook how atrocious he was, or was he not quite as atrocious before, and he's just gotten much, much more depraved? >> i think he's always been the same guy. one thing, john, i was in a meeting with king salman and president obama, where president obama raised human rights concerns. the detention of bloggers, mass executions. mbs was way down the line in the meeting. he stood up. i've never seen anything like this. somebody else standing up and started lecturing president obama about the saudi justice system and how we don't understand it. he was 30 years old at the time. he's always had this belligerent streak. what his interest has always been is his own consolidation of power in the kingdom. what he did is, to a western audience, he'd talk about diversifying the saudi economy,

reforming saudi society, but those were all talking points in service of his real agenda, which was consolidating power. if you look at what he's actually done since trump took office, the fight with qatar, detentions of his own family, the removal of the crown prince ahead of him to take his place. his priority has always been becoming one man, one rule in saudi arabia, with him in charge, which is not how the family operated in the past. i think richard is right, what we should be worried about is he knows his -- pardon the pun -- his trump card with the united states is iran. he will say, we need to confront iran, and i'm going to do that. we've seen in yemen his approach to doing that is shoot first and aim later. he got into this war in yemen without any idea of where it'll lead. people in the united states too often heard what they wanted to hear from him and didn't look under the hood and see, the reason he's telling me these things is not because he's actually going to do them, it is because he has an agenda that is entirely his own. >> again, talking about how both

republicans and democrats, conservatives and liberals are shocked by what happened yesterday, we'll end this segment the same way we started it, with a tom nichols tweet. he said, and ben, as you know, i agree here, he says, i was a vocal and continuous critic of the iran deal, which i argued was not worth the price. what trump did today was undermine what america once stood for. at least president obama had a strategy, even if wrong. this is just naked trump family interest. we can all disagree on different policies, but i think we all agree what happened yesterday was an aberration and not in the best interest of this country. ben, thank you so much for being with us. we really do appreciate it. as we go to break, an update on mississippi's senate race. she talked about a public hanging and joked about making it harder for students to vote. now, there's a revelation that

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that simplify your experience. my name is mike, i'm in product development at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. you have deployed u.s. military to the border on a thanksgiving holiday. >> don't worry about the thanksgiving. these are tough people. they know what they're doing. they're great. they've done a great job. you're worried about the thanksgiving holiday for them. they are so proud to be representing our country on the border. if you look at what's happening, mexico, the people from tijuana are saying, wow, these are tough people. they're fighting us. they're in fistfights all over the place. >> fistfights all over the place. we have border guards. anyway, let's go to tom nichols.

tom, active duty, military vets, majority supported donald trump in the 2016 election. i just in a couple minutes wrote down, he spent the past couple weeks attacking a navy s.e.a.l. hero, using the troops on the bodd border asprops, refusing to go to arlington on veterans day, refusing to commemorate america's and allies' sacrifice in the great war because it was sprinkling outside. of course, steadfastly refusing to visit troops in a war zone. what are active duty military men and women to make of their commander in chief, especially his actions over the past few weeks? >> i can't speak for the active duty military, and i wouldn't speak for them.

i think, again, part of what you're seeing with this fracturing of support, because i think that's starting to happen, and you saw it in the midterms. joe, as you pointed out, the turnout and the lost seats, the number of votes suggests that this is starting to wear thin. there have been some polls suggesting that the president's support in the military is eroding but, you know, his base is always going to be with him. his base includes a broad spectrum of people. i think, in part, it's because they respond to these rhetorical cues of patriotism, then they ignore the actions that come after it. as long as he says the right thing and, you know, says, i support the military, then they're okay with that. you have to remember, a lot of the people who support trump define themselves by what they're not. they say, well, he's not perfect, but he's not a democrat or he's not a liberal.

for a lot of folks, i think that's just enough. >> yeah. jonathan, you had the white house saying the reason the president didn't visit troops in the war zones is because he didn't support the wars which, of course, is the last thing you want to send -- the last signal you want to send our enemies and friends across the world. what is the latest inside the white house about the southern border? we heard reports from "politico" that troops were coming home yesterday, then the white house pushed back on that. will those troops will staying on the southern border as political props through christmas? >> first of all, in terms of the war zone visit, you're right. there has been growing talk in the white house this is something he needs to do. it is a political liability. he's been reluctant, you're right. it sends a signal to our troops overseas, that if he doesn't believe in the wars, what support is that? it's also been he's privately expressed fears about his safety, if he were to go to one of these places. of course, all his pred se pred

would do it, sometimes more than once, as a show of solidarity. i asked him about it a month ago. he said, i don't think it is necessary. i'm busy here, making the economy great. there is an expectation that there will be a slow drawdown from the border in the coming weeks, that some of the troops will be home before christmas. again, sort of revealing itself to be, at least in part, a political stunt before the midterms. you know, again, his rhetoric about the vary -- caravan as vanished. it was his closing argument night after night at the rallies. since then, it's disappeared, largely on conservative media, and his own rhetoric. he certainly dozen tend to fight the asylum ruling. you saw his frustration with the ninth circuit. there are things with the border policy he does want to toughen up. he's furious at homeland

security secretary kirstjen nielsen because he feels she's not tough enough. >> thanks so much. tom nichols, thanks for being with us. i need to clear one thing up. jay caruso sent me a message and said that you hate led zeppelin. we just want to mark that down as a lie here and give you a chance to defend yourself. >> i've been outed on national television about led zeppelin. i have to admit it, i've never been a led zeppelin fan. >> oh, gosh. >> i know. it was nice being with you. >> tom, i was willing to -- >> i guess it's over. >> i was willing to stand up for you on the boston debut, but you're telling me that you think boston is a better band than led zeppelin? >> i'm telling you that i would rather listen to side one of boston -- >> cut your losses. >> tom, it's time to hang it up,

bud. time to hang it up. >> i think my car is outside. >> you better get in it fast. thank you so much, tom, i guess. holy cow. coming up, it's been nearly a year in the making, but robert mueller has finally received some answers from donald trump, at least in writing, because donald trump was afraid to sit across the table with robert mueller, man to man. we'll be talking about what to expect next from the special counsel straight ahead on "morning joe." oh, there's some zepp. ♪ we are santa's elves unlike santa's presents, ours don't just magically appear.

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so john heilemann, i'm a bit shaken by what we learned at the end of last block about tom nichols and led zeppelin. any insights? >> well, i don't generally -- i mean, a, not my program, b, i don't believe in lifetime bans, except maybe pete rose from baseball. i'm not sure we can let tom back on the show. >> i think he's going to have to answer some questions, maybe some written submitted questions about led zeppelin and his

hatred. >> i mean, somewhere out there in the world, joe, jimmie page, robert plant are both having the coronaries that they somehow evaded for their whole lives. all the abuse, the alcohol, drugs, sex, all they've done, all the craziness hasn't killed them. >> the sharks. >> haven't killed them. hearing that, i'm not sure. they might both have had simultaneous coronaries just now. >> there's no doubt, their than thanksgivings will be ruined ththand we apologize to them and the entire band. >> whisper to richard haass, and make sure he doesn't have the same feelings about zepp. >> i'll check. >> ask him if he knows who led zeppelin is, actually. >> ouch. >> president trump's legal team submitted written answers to a

series of questions posed by special counsel robert mueller. with us to talk about it, former u.s. attorney and now law enforcement analyst, chuck rosenberg. he was a former a ee eer aide t mueller and in charge of briefing robert mueller with a daily intelligence report is david preece, author of "how to get rid of a president," removing unfit chief executives. chuck, i'll ask you fisrst. will this first round of questions suffice? will he be going back with more questions in the future? >> as a predicate, understand, prosecutors almost never take answers in writing. it never happens. something civil lawyers might do in a deposition, but i was a federal prosecutor for a long time, and never once did i ever

accept answers in writing. you want to talk to people face-to-face, just as you as a journalist would want to sit down with somebody across the table from you and judge their inflecti inflection, their body lack wng, demeanor, and have the ability to answer follow-up questions. it don't think it is sufficient. i don't think it's the end. bob mueller may have made a calculation it is enough on these few issues, but i imagine they'd want to talk to the president about what i think is the most significant thing here, the obstruction of justice. >> david, you briefed robert mueller when you were at the cia. what insights can you provide us about the briefings, the sort of questions he asked, and from your insights, where this investigation may go? >> sure. before i start, one scoop i can bring to your program, i have a source telling me that bob mueller is bringing in tom nichols for questioning today about his led zeppelin attitude.

back in the day, when i used to brief director mueller every day, that was taking the president's daily brief and other intelligence materials every working day to brief him. his job, to start his morning, was to process through that information and prepare him to meet with the president every day. on many of those mornings, chuck was involved in some of the briefings and had access to much of that information, as well. but the whole idea was to give him a bunch of complex information that he had to go through and decide, how do i use this to prosecute the war on terrorism from the bureau? i've got to tell you, my experience with him was that no one i worked with did a better job of handling both the ta tactical information, asking question after question, digging into the details of what we knew and what we didn't know, and the strategic as the same time, tying it into the bigger themes and issues, addressing the war on terrorism. it serves him well in this, the

most complex of all investigations the u.s. government has probably ever handled. i think he'll be attacking this in much the same way. looking at every single detail in the written answers and the other information he's received, but tying it into the larger themes to get the bigger picture. >> kasie hunt is with us in washington. she has a question for chuck. >> yeah, chuck, i'm wondering, we only know a little bit about what the president has sent over to robert mueller, the nature of these questions. we are, according to our reporting here, we know they were limited to russian interference. didn't include obstruction of justice. one of the notes, as well, is that there's apparently a lot of pushback from the white house on what they deem to be legitimate lines of inquiry, that this may be part of what they've sent over. what do you read into that? what do you think we should be looking for? >> good question. normally, the person who is being questioned, target, subject, defendant, does not determine what is and what is not a legitimate line of

questioning. that's just crazy. so if this thing has to be litigated -- for instance, if bob mueller decides he needs the president's testimony on the obstruction issue and wants to push that issue, it'll be decided by a court, not by white house counsel, not by mr. trump's personal lawyers. it'll be decided by a court. by the way, for what it's worth, i think the court precedents line up nicely for the prosecutors in this. >> david, it's jonathan. a question for you. so much has been made about how robert mueller works quietly. he follows guidelines. he is not out talking to the press, unlike the white house side of this. we're coming up to potentially a significant inflection point, if there is a need to push on the subpoena. will he subpoena the president, which is a great legal question, whether he can or not. is that a step he'd take, knowing his character, something that would be such a controversial move, that potentially could plunge us into a constitutional crisis? >> what we've seen so far is

when bob mueller dropped indictments, they speak for themselves. they are meticulously researched, expertly presented, and there's been no need for mueller to go in front of a camera to explain what's happening. i don't think it'll change. when the investigation ends, there is a need to describe the judgments reached in the inve investigati investigation, bob mueller has saved his moral authority and his integrity for that moment, when there may be an actual crisis in terms of what to do about the results. i don't expect to see or hear much from him personally until that happens. i think the coming indictments, and i do believe there are coming indictments, i believe those will be speaking for themselves. >> chuck, i want to bring this in for a landing here by going back to the top. joe suggested that, as the question was, whether there might be more rounds of this or mueller might come back. i think the question hovering over all of this is, do we get

to the place where mueller decides to subpoena the president, call him before the grand jury? there is some speculation that could have already happened under seal. i want you to talk about that, whether it is possible that a subpoena has already been issued to the president by bob mueller, and if that's not already happened, we don't know whether it has or not, but talk about the way in which it could be possible. if it hasn't happened, is that not where we are headed, given it took this long for the president to get -- for the special counsel to get the president to offer even written answers to some questions? are we not going to end up in a place where we face the subpoena question eventually? >> it's a really difficult question, john. here's why, if the president is a target of this investigation, what we call someone likely to be charged, policy is you don't issue a grand jury subpoena in the normal course to a target. then, putting that aside for a minute, you also know that you can't charge a sitting

president. if you can't charge a sitting president, could he be a target? i think the answer is yes. even though it sounds contradictory. because one day, he won't be a president anymore. he could be a target today and a defendant later. >> right. >> given all that, and i'm sorry to nerd out on you, because it gets a little complex, i think it is entirely plausible that the under seal matter in the d.c. courts right now could be a battle over a subpoena to the president. don't know that definitively. we do know when grand jury matters are litigated, they're put under seal. we know there's something under seal. could it be a subpoena to the president seeking his grand jury testimony? it's plausible. could bob mueller also decide he doesn't want to fight that fight, that he doesn't need to? that's also plausible. >> all right. chuck rosenberg and david preece, thank you, all, very much. we appreciate it. coming up, nancy pelosi gains key support in her quest to retake the speaker's gavel,

but will it be enough? we're beginning to be asking about that next. and millions of viewers weighing in on tom nichols and zeppelin. one writes, zepp is the best. my daughter says i drive better when they're playing in the car. huh. another writes, everything zeppelin did was a knockoff of something hendricks had already done, at least until their fourth album. as we go to break, we leave you with more led zeppelin. we'll be right back, talking about nancy pelosi's attempt to retake the speakership.

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the hill is, is the resistance to nancy pelosi's speakership crumbling? >> i think it is, joe. earlier in the week there was a sense that perhaps this fight would be harder for her than we expected, but the news yesterday that martha fudge who had been thinking of a challenge against nancy pelosi was not going to run, was going to accept the integrity that gives martha fudge a seat at the table. we're always talking about how it's close to inevitable that nancy pelosi will be the next speaker of the house, because she really is the best there is in congress at doing these kinds of things, at knowing exactly what everybody in her caucus wants, what they need, how to influence them, how to convince them to get on her side. she really has mounted a very

careful pressure campaign. they ran a campaign saying they wouldn't vote for her, but she has been meeting with them one on one, and a lot of them have started to temper, i would say, their language in public. the people who signed that letter against her, it's led by seth molten who claims behind the scenes there is a sense that there's more opposition to her, but he's also not necessarily broadly liked, and a lot of the signers on that letter are white men, joe, and that's simply not the message the democrats took away from the midterms. >> yeah, and we'll talk to you next hour about whether this is always a fait accompli and those members who said they wouldn't support nancy pelosi, if the last week has been to figure out a way to make nancy pelosi

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he's not afraid to sit down. it just doesn't seem to rise to that level. >> we're staying with saudi arabia. >> afraid of bob mueller? afraid of being in a war zone. and afraid to even challenge saudi arabia. but after all, there is nothing to fear but fear itself, and donald trump seems to have a lot of that these days. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," this wednesday, november 21st. you know, i've just been thinking, it's the scope and the scale of the historic democratic landslide in the midterms becomes clear. we're actually getting a chance, unfortunately, to see the worst of donald trump. and we're watching his devastating impact on this country and on his republican party play out on vivid display.

you know, regardless of what republicans try to tell you, there was no split decision in the midterms. democrats keep wracking up more house seats by the day, and they're going to win the congressional vote in the house by over 8%. that's a historic route. in fact, there's never been as big a win as the democrats have had in the house this off-term election. unfortunately, we're learning by the hour that a repudiated, a rejected donald trump is actually more dangerous, more radical and more unhinged than the donald trump we watched the first two years. and yesterday brought us a compendium of the bleakest elements of donald trump's im morality. openly siding with the saudis,

even as an american in a cold-blooded murder. they ambushed an american resident and a "washington post" columnist. the "new york times" reported repeatedly and petulantly demanding the justice department to go after them. james comey and hillary clinton with dozens of questions saying the conduct could have been as egregious as hillary clinton's, we just don't know yet. also standing by an acting attorney general and the most racially insensitive senate candidate in decades in a mississippi runoff. donald trump, by doing that and everything else that we saw just

yesterday, and what he's done over the past two years, he's forfeited any claim of being a legitimate president. he did that long ago. i find it hard to see how he could seek, let alone win, the presidency again in 2020. i don't think he's going to run, because at the end of the day, he didn't want to win in 2016. as i've told you time and time again, with donald trump, it is all about money. sell out to the saudis even when your intel community tells you that they're run by a murderer? no problem with donald trump because it's not about america's reputation on the globe. it's not about what's best for middle east policy. for donald trump it's what's best for donald trump, and not even politically, but financially. what deals can he make in two years when he leaves the white house? vladimir putin, he murders journalists, he assassinates

political rivals. no problem. never mind what the cia says about the russians trying to divert american democracy, never mind the head of his own homeland security department said russia poses a risk to american democracy. donald trump says, i don't believe the intel communities. putin gave me his word. let's see what deals are adone two years from now between donald trump and russia and the billions of dollars that come his way. see, friends, this isn't about america. this isn't about politics, this isn't about the republican party. this isn't about a reelection campaign. this is about donald trump gathering as many chips as he can until he leaves office. he's not thinking about reelection, he's thinking about

all the money he can make as ex-president. so if it doesn't make sense to you what he's doing, maybe you should just remember what woodward and bernstein said during watergate. follow the money. and this is not political money. it's personal money. and it's not money in trump's pocket now. it's money that he thinks he's going to make two, three, four, five years from now. when he can go to the saudis and say, hey, i stood by you when the cia had evidence that you lured a "washington post" columnist into your embassy, strangled him and then took a bone saw to him and cut him up. that's what this is all about. and guess what? it's only going to get worse for

donald trump. with robert mueller closing in, trump has destroyed his own presidency and he is showing us his soul a little more every day. or rather, some would say his lack of one. in the wake of the midterm super shelac i krrkc shel shelacking, the public is standing in support of their dear leader. don't show me your tweets. don't give me your speeches. show me your courage. show me your resolve, that you want to put your country, that you want to put the conservative movement, that you want to put your party ahead of donald trump. but time is running out. for the sake of history and for the fate of the conservative movement and one of the nation's two political parties, good men and good women who want a future for the gop need to stand up and

speak out today, or their fate will be fully intertwined with this man who is crashing and burning right before our eyes. republicans, you think 2018 was bad? you ain't seen nothing yet. let's bring in white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan la mere and author of a book, richard haas. we have contributing editor for the "washington post," jonathan doren. and editor for the "washington post," david ignatius. david, it's hard to square up what the cia has concluded, what the intelligence has concluded, what the world community has concluded, what our allies have concluded and what donald trump

said yesterday. how do we square it and how do we move forward as a country trying to be the leader of the free world? >> joe, this was as cold-blooded a statement as i can ever remember being issued by a president. it was in very unpresidential style, almost a chatter, a shout you would have from the president with the tape recorder running. it began by saying america first, with an exclamation point, and the subtext for me throughout was "values last." the president, as you said, put aside the judgment of the cia that the crown prince of saudi arabia, mohammad bin salman, very likely was responsible for the killing of my colleague and friend, jamal khashoggi, and trump said maybe he knew and maybe he didn't, but the implication was he didn't really

care. he was going to make his decision based on u.s. economic interests, saudi oil, weapons sales to saudi arabia, saudi help in fighting iran. throughout the statement it was rep prkolitique, as we like to . he wants to give mohammed bin salman a pass. they have already said the president erdogan, one of the sharpest critics of saudi arabia, the killing took place in their consulate in istanbul, they want to meet with them. that is a sign of people kind of normalizing this terrible crime. again, this was a colleague. he walk into the consulate hoping to get papers to get married. he was killed and dismembered

and our president says, basically, life goes on. america first. >> richard haas, despite our military power, despite our economic prowess, our economic dominance, for millions of people across the globe that look to the united states, america is an idea. america is a dream -- america is what ronald reagan said, a city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see. that dimmed a great deal yesterday. it's dimmed a great deal over the past few years. what do we do? what do we do as a country? what signals can our other elected leaders send? what do our diplomats do the day after our intel community says that the saudi leader is a cold-blooded murderer and donald trump says, in effect, that's okay with me? >> well, it sends a message to

the world that it's not really america first, it's commercial interests first. it's not our strategic interests, it's not our values, it's an extraordinarily narrow, almost pinched notion of the national interests. something we haven't seen before, and it reinforces what's going on here at home, joe, and you were getting at it. it's not simply what we're saying and not saying in our foreign policy. it's also what we're showing. a big part of foreign policy is not what diplomats say and do, it's the example we set. so this combination of a cynical -- i would use the word amoral foreign policy. it's so amoral it actually bleeds into the immoral in our foreign policy. our american democracy courts and the media are being attacked. it is essentially saying this is not the united states, this is not the america that people thought they knew. it's a green light to the chinese to do what they're do g doing, the saudis for what

they're doing. it is essentially saying, we will no longer take this into account. you've got a pass. so american foreign policy now is going to be narrowly based on commercial interests. essentially mercantilism. we've got from trump's tenet to mercantilism? as long as the balance of trade is moving in our direction, we'll pretty much look the other way now if you say and do things that are important to us. so this is something that is outside the american political tradition. over the next two years -- i would hope not just democrats who now have the house and the hearing capability, but the republicans, too. foreign policy during so much of the cold war has been bipartisan, so i think it's important that it be republicans as well as democrats step up and challenge this and basically remind people that american foreign policy has a broader foundation. coming up, he doesn't want to punish the crown prince of saudi arabia, but hillary clinton apparently is a target and fair game.

new reporting says the president told the white house counsel he wanted to order the justice department to prosecute his 2016 political opponent! wow. that's an autocrat in training and that straight ahead. but first here's bill karins checking the weather pattern. >> a chill across the country. a little snow coming off lake ontario and lake erie here, but the big story is the cold. already wind chill 14 in minneapolis. it will sweep toward the northeast during the night tonight. you'll feel it tomorrow morning. as far as that lake effect snow, looking really nice across the country. a little rain in south texas. but our rainy, stormy series is coming in the west. it's much needed but it could cause some airport problems, especially in san francisco and

a little bit possibly in seattle and in portland. as far as the roads go, i mentioned interstate 90. it snowed pretty good north of portland. could be some snow-covered roads there. and with all the rainy weather, watch going through the mountain passes in the west. as far as traveling on thanksgiving day goes, minor delays possible. all the issues will really be in the west on thanksgiving day. also heading through areas of i-5 and interstate 80 and a little bit of snow on 15 heading up through utah, too. overall, as far as travel weather goes, as long as the heater is working in your car, not many issues for the eastern two-thirds of the country. we're talking about the balloon forecast. we're worried about the winds. we've actually lowered the forecast. i think the balloons are going to fly. it will be frigid but at least the kids will be happy seeing their favorites. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. right back. there's no better way to spend the holidays than with viggo mortensen and mahershala ali.

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more than any human being. he actually did hillary clinton a big favor because she should be in jail. >> it's just unbelievable. president trump continues to publicly rail against hillary clinton. bad timing, mr. president. you should talk to your daughter and james comey. and now the "new york times" is reporting the donald trump pressure top law enforcement officials, including the acting attorney general, about investigating hillary clinton, his last political rival, and james comey, former fbi director. two people tell "the times" that president trump told then-white house counsel don mcgahn in the spring that he wanted to order the justice department to prosecute former fbi director james comey and hillary clinton. the sources say mcgahn told the president he didn't have that authority. and while he could request an investigation, it would also prompt abuse of power accusations. with us now, one of the reporters who broke the story, michael schmidt of the "new york

times." michael, big headline, big story. what's the importance of it? >> the importance of it is the insight into how donald trump sees the justice department. he sees the justice department as a tool, essentially, to figure out the political problems that he has. he believes and has said privately and at times publicly that the attorney general is someone that should work for him, that should be loyal to him, that should put his interests first. and this is sort of along those lines. it's about using the justice department to fix political problems that he has. now, trump ultimately does not order the justice department to prosecute these folks. he did not have that authority, and he did not ask them, at least that we know of, through the white house counsel to investigate them, but he was warned about the problems of this and that there could be significant blowback. and the interesting thing about how this all fits together is

that trump did this. he explored the idea of having them do this at a time he's under investigation for obstruction of justice. so he's being looked at about his dealings with the justice department about whether he's essentially abused his power and he continues to talk about those things. >> it's attacking the attackers, and investigating the investigators. it sounds like something that devin nunez has been doing on the hill. >> michael, my question to you is, i think trump is operating on the basis that a lot of conservatives believed during the obama years that eric holder, the attorney general, was fundamentally serving as obama's wing man at the doj and using his powers to protect president obama. i think trump said this repeatedly on the campaign trail in 2015 and 2016 and in debates and that sort of thing.

though he said it in criticism of holder and obama, he seems to believe that this idea of how it works should be the model that he should get to follow. do i have that right? >> yeah. and he has said this privately in the white house several times. he says that obama had holder, jfk had rfk, and then he says, where is my roy cohn, referring to the long-time new york lawyer who was essentially his fixer. that's what he wants at the top of the justice department. he moved right after the election to get rid of jeff sessions because he thought he was not an attorney general that put his interests first. he blamed jeff sessions for recusing himself from the russia investigation. that was something that he never got over. he thought that was disloyal. the essential question of the trump presidency, one of the questions here, is that why is

it that donald trump wants so much loyalty from these folks that are atop his law enforcement agencies? is he simply someone that throughout his life just prizes loyalty, puts a high price on it, thinks it's really important, or is there something more there? is he trying to protect himself from something? time and time again, he wants these folks, just like his attorney general right now, a political ally, someone he feels comfortable with, who will be there. why is it that he wants people like that there? >> still ahead, we've already talked about saudi arabia and the doj. up next, the president's immigration issues. why the fight over asylum could be his toughest yet. "morning joe" back in a moment. t

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. i will be issuing both peas and carrots a presidential pardon. unfortunately, i can't guarantee that your pardons won't be enjoined by the ninth circuit. always happens. >> i'm going to put in a major

complaint because you can't win if you're us in the ninth circuit. i think it's a disgrace when every case gets filed in the ninth circuit, because they know that's not law. that's not what this country stands for. and the ninth circuit is really something we have to take a look at because it's not fair. >> it's not fair. the ninth circuit is something we're going to have to look at? barack obama could have said that about district court and judges in texas that would enjoin parts of obamacare or his other policies. we're going to have to take a look at that? why don't you read the constitution. not all circuits have to bow to the president of the united states. they didn't to barack obama and the more conservative circuits and they're not going to to you and the more liberal circuits. that was president trump yesterday with his responses to

a federal judge's decision to temporarily block his administration denying an asylum request to anyone not entering the u.s. with a port of entry. we have msnbc contributor kimberly adkins. this morning she writes about why this latest immigration fight could be donald trump's toughest. kimberly, we've been here before with past presidents. we are here with this president, but i will say from the very beginning, donald trump has been slowed down time and again on some of his more extreme immigration policies. what does this look like and where do we end up? >> yeah, so in this case, it was an attempt by the administration to limit the way that asylum seekers can make such claims for asylum, saying that only people who come to a port of entry would be allowed to make an asylum claim, and it was made in the lead-up to the midterms with the focus on the central american migrants who were

making their way to the southern border as a way of showing that they're going to get tough and not have open borders. well, this judge in san francisco, which is one of the districts that would report to the ninth circuit if there is an appeal, said, well, no. although the president does have broad authority on immigration policy, he cannot go contrary to the law. and the law clearly states that asylum seekers can make those claims however they enter the country. and the idea is we want to have a policy that allows people who are fleeing dangerous situations to make that claim, and the president didn't put -- the administration didn't put forward enough support for this idea that there was an invasion and that there was some national security issue in order to counteract that strong policy in favor of allowing asylum seekers. it's just the latest in a number of ways that the courts have said there are limits to the

president's authority, even when it comes to immigration where, generally speaking, the president does have pretty broad leeway to implement policy. >> i want to just ask kimberly, as we think about these immigration cases and other major cases, are they moving toward the supreme court? do you have a sense of a supreme court getting ready to decide some fundamental cases in law that will be guardrails for this administration, or maybe not? what do you think? >> i think it depends on how these cases move forward. i mean, yes, the appointment of justice kavanaugh did shift the court fundamentally to the right, so i think on substantive issues that come up to the court, it will be much more conservative where they were talking about abortion or other things. but on the other hand, you also have justices, including neal gorsuch, who president trump appointed, who is very skeptical

of giving agencies, for example, too much deference when it comes to how they interpret their own rules and that that's really for the courts to decide, how rules are to be implemented. so you can see a situation where there are trump administration regulations that are going to get a really hard look from this court, depending how they are, and may not have the rulings on their side. last year justice gorsuch ruled against the president in an immigration case where he was trying to hasten deportations, and justice gorsuch was on the opposite side of that. so i think it depends on how these cases come forward and what's the basis of the challenge. coming up on "morning joe." >> the american dream is dead. >> our next guest has a different take. he says the american dream is a myth. author casey gerald joins us with his new book entitled "there will be no miracles here." "morning joe" will be right

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stocks took a sharp plunge yesterday for the second day in a row, with the dow falling nearly 550 points. according to dow jones data, that's the worst thanksgiving week for the dow and the s&p since 2011. it was only tuesday. at least it was only tuesday. we're waiting to see what will happen today. the dow gets this negative for the year, so it's actually negative in a year after donald trump's massive tax cuts that added a trillion dollars to the national debt. meanwhile, a recent piece in the "new york times" argues that there is now a greater chance for upper mobility in china than in the united states. but according to our next guest, the american dream is not dead but, rather, a myth that distracts from what he calls the american machine. it's a theme of his new memoir

entitled, "there will be no miracles here," just in time for happy holiday reading. let's bring in author casey gerald. he joins us now. also with us for the conversation is author and nbc news political analyst, ano anon girardis. anon, after all this time, you would think i wouldn't stumble over your name, but there it is. casey, let me ask you about the american dream. you said it's not dead, it never existed. explain. >> well, i wouldn't say it never existed. i think the american dream is very much alive and real, joe, and everybody from the "new york times" to george w. bush agrees i'm the embodiment of it, and that's quite sad. i've lived america from the very bottom to the very top. i was born in this little forgotten world of oak cliff, texas. went off to yale and played

football and was in wall street. i was in the obama administration. i spent three years after going to harvard business school driving 4,000 miles across the country to appalachia, detroit, new orleans. what i found was the american dream is real, it just happens to be a distraction, a distraction from the american machine. you take a kid like me, and it allows us to ignore the conveyor belt that takes most young people from neighborhoods like minor neighborhoods like j.d. vance's, for example, and takes them to nowhere unlike the few chosen like me, and i think what my book does is go back as objectively as possible on the realities of this country and the choices that we've made that leads to the reality that a kid in my neighborhood is expected to earn $21,000 a year, less than their parents were expected to earn. 13 million children go to sleep hungry in this country.

one in three children don't have a stable place to sleep at all. i think it's less about the american dream, it's more about the american machine. china has made practical choices to support their people, and we have not. >> you talk about the american machine. define what you say the american machine is. >> well, the american machine, i call it as i say this conveyor belt. if you say, we're going to strip funding for schools, if you say, we're going to have you take something like my high school. there were more visits from drug-sniffing dogs in my high school than there were visits from s.a.t. tutors. that says a lot. in my work across america, we spent time in places not unlike my neighborhood, poor inner-city neighborhoods, we spent time in places like montana where sarah cahon was putting her life on

the line to drive economic development in this rural community. she got 1/1000th the support that my class at harvard business school got. one of the few things donald trump said that's true is that the system is rigged. and it's rigged for people like i went to school with at harvard and yale and against the people i grew up with in oak cliff. >> anon is with us. anon? >> i think what's so powerful about your book is that so many of the arguments we're having in this country are really arguments about the american dream in disguise. the question of facebook compromising our democracy, the question of donald trump and the fake nostalgia he is selling, and so many other economic political, social arguments we're having is about this

economic dream. give us a sense of what you've been able to see because you've lived in so many corners of it. i often say you're the forrest gump but you're better at football. can you talk about the world from college football to wall street to mental health issues you've dealt with in your family? you've lived so much. what does it allow you to see that so many people don't? >> i love when you say i'm like forrest gump if he's a black, queer texan. that's great for a texan, not great for a life. i'm sorry they didn't have more makeup to make me look less haggard on this journey. the book says memoir on the cover, but my agent sent it to a

brit, an old victorian actor, and when he read it, he said, i didn't feel like i was reading a memoir, i felt like i was reading the history of america. what i've tried to do with this book after recounting my time at lehman brothers, after recounting my grandmother and grandfather's journey from slavery in texas, we're counting all these things, even the dinner i had with george bush a few years ago, we're counting them somewhat clinically is getting to the work that we're doing in this moment in this country. so many people ask me, well, casey, where do we go from here? and i say that the question is not where do we go from here, the question is where is here? there is not a gps system in the world that can lead you to a destination without knowing your current location. and if this book works, it is that kind of location work of where we are and how we got here as a country. >> hey, casey, it's john heilman here. i want to ask you a question that kind of plays off the last thing you were saying and tries

to ground our conversation a little bit in practical politics. i've heard you say that you think the future for progressive politics looks more like democratic socialism than it does like the neo-liberalism that's dominated the democratic party for pretty much our lifetimes. you look at stacy abrams, you look at andrew gillum, you look at o'rourke, three una babashed candidates who lost. what lessons do you think they should take from seeing those candidates who embrace that kind of vision, ran in that unabashed way, seeing them lose. is there hope in that, or is that a cautionary tale that maybe that democratic socialism you've been talking about may be a little further off than some

people hope? >> whether it's farther off or not, john, it's coming. i say all the time, and i've been on the road traveling the country in the last two months, and in so many conversations with my generation and the generation under, and i believe in the early days of a dangerous revolution in this country. but that's going to be hard work. it took 50 years for william buckley to go from the modern society to global power. maybe it will take that same amount of time for those on our side, but i write in the book about a coup that my classmates and i wrote. the team sucked and we decided to stage a coup and take the team over. it took us six, seven, eight months to replace the upperclass men on that team, but we did it and we ended up being a generation. i think as a generation and a

count country, we're going to lose obviously. but i think if the ideas are right and the willingness to sacrifice is there, i think that dangerous revolution will look pretty good before too long. >> casey gerald, thanks so much for being with us. the book is "there will be no miracles here." we appreciate it. anand, two years ago around this time, around thanksgiving, you and i had the debate on whether the institutions would hold how american government would absorb the worst excesses of donald trump. we are now seeing the biggestie electoral route in terms of votes, 8.8 million votes, separating democrats from republicans in u.s. history. we're seeing conservative justices appointed by donald trump pushing back at him this week, and, of course, even liberal judges as we expect from the ninth circuit. i'm wondering, where do you think we are right now in terms

of the institutions versus the worst instincts of donald trump? >> it's a great question. i think there is hard institutions and soft institutions. and i think probably the story of the last couple years has been that our hard institutions, our courts, in large part to the civil service, et cetera, have shown themselves to be somewhat resilient. not all of it. not i.c.e., not certain parts of this government. but large parts of this government have proven themselves to be resilient to the worst of trump's instincts. the cia came to the conclusion that it came to on khashoggi and didn't change the conclusion to befit his barbaric statement, for example. i think a country like ours is also held together perhaps even more by soft institutions, by norms, by culture, by values. i don't think we even fully understood that until trump became president. so now a statement like the kind

that was -- that he delivered on khashoggi is now normal in american life. you know, using profanity to describe lawmakers from a co-equal branch of government is normal in american life, denigrating the press as an enemy of the people is now normal in american life. there are a bunch of institutions that have held up, but i think there are a bunch of soft institutions that he has destroyed perhaps irrevocablirr. there will be american leaders going forward who now operate in the norms fear that he ran. and my biggest fear is that the next time we get a donald trump in this country, it will be someone who can read. >> you know, the fact that this first test, and it has been a test to our constitutional republic in quite some time, somebody pushing up against constitutional norms has been, as we've said for some time, from somebody who is, when it comes to running the government,

incompetent, ignorant and a man who really doesn't care to learn how to make government work for him. but you are right, whether you're talking about the courts, the intel community, the media, national media outlets, a lot of the institutions have held a firm line. but in some of these lines, constitutional norms, cultural norms, the norms are just decency that he's breached. he and the republican party have paid a heavy, heavy price at the polls for that. anand, thank you so much. please come back as soon as you can. we want to note that anand's latest book "winners take all," and casey gerald's new book both appear on the "new york times" list of most notable books of 2018. coming up next, an update on the domestic violence allegations against michael avenatti. also some important health news as families prepare for

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we have an update now on the woman who accused michael avenatti of domestic abuse. actress morelli was granted a

restraining order, she'd been living with him since january and detailed his alleged aggression toward her, throwing a shoe at her and pushing her on separate occasions. before she says a heated argument over money turned violent on november the 13th. she says he dragged her and left her with red marks, according to court documents. avenatti, the attorney for stormy daniels and one of president donald trump's loudest critics was arrested last week on suspicion of felony domestic abuse. he was booked and released on $50,000. he continues to protest his innocence, tweeting that surveillance video from his building and other details will exonerate him. we'll be following this story as it develops. now, to some important health stories right before thanksgiving. a multistate e. coli outbreak is under way. the cdc says romaine lettuce is to blame. 13 have been hospitalized. an additional 18 people have

been sickened in canada. let's bring in leading spine surgeon, author and the establisher of the online health news letter thrive, dr. dave campbellson. dr. dave, it looks like we may have to cancel thanksgiving given the scares. how serious is the e. coli scare as it pertains to romaine lettuce? >> it's very serious, joe, and it's not the first this year. romaine lettuce is now contaminated with e. colis with a bacteria that can cause significant gi symptoms. the recommendation is, i agree with this wholeheartedly, throw away the row mamaine lettuce. there's no end point. >> why does this problem keep reoccurring? >> it seems to be in production processes, farming in particular where the water that is used to irrigate is contaminated with

typically animal feces. and that translates into e. coli on your lettuce. >> okay. so now moving from lettuce. to turkey. and now there's also a recall of turkey products, just in time for thanksgiving. what should shoppers avoid? >> well, this is a different bacteria. this is salmonella. and it's with ground turkey. so the recommendation that i have is to -- if at all possible, use whole turkey. use large pieces of turkey. and steer clear of the ground turkey, at least for now. >> okay. and let's go from the negative news to the positive news. if you'd like peanuts for thanksgiving, instead of turkey or lettuce -- actually, some good news, serious good news. hope for those suffering from peanut allergies which can be deadly at times. tell us about that. >> this is hugely optimistic. one in 50 kids are allergic to

peanuts. they're the leading cause of death from food allergies. there's a phase 3 clinical trial that's approaching fda clearance that will allow oral medications to desensitize those kids with peanut allergies so they can live more safely. not that they can eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but that they can get through the day without horrible concerns for -- >> what stage is this at? >> it's past phase 3, and it will be going to the fda for approval, probably this year. we'll see. >> okay, could be some very, very good news. dr. dave campbell, thank you so much. we appreciate it. now time for final thoughts. and casey, we want to mention first, last week you along with nbc news capitol hill team accepted the joans award. in a year since they began

reporting on this, four members of congress resigned in the wake of allegations. congress is still trying to figure out what type of legislation might come from it all. casey, congratulations on the honor and great reporting. give us your final thoughts for the morning if you will. >> thanks so much, joe, really appreciate it. to pick up on that very point, this is something that there's a lot of pressure on congress to get done before the end of the year. these rules, the reporting process, if you're somebody who's trying to file a complaint against somebody, whether it's a member of congress or your chief of staff or somebody else you work for, it's just byzantine, incredibly difficult to n navigate. if they don't do it by the end of the year, they'll have to star over. >> jonathan? >> my final thoughts is my thanksgiving is going to be mostly stuffing, potatoes and pie. but beyond that, i would say this, in the light of the white house turning over the president's written answers to bob mueller on answers about collusion, look for them to ramp

up the pressure in the coming days to wrap up this investigation even though mueller shows no signs of reaching the end with all the questions about obstruction and other things remaining. >> john, final thoughts this morning? >> i think you and i will agree on the basis of dr. dave's reports it confirms our basic posture related to not just romaine lettuce, but green vegetables in general, evil, don't eat them, terrible. what's the best led zeppelin album? don't say four, because you'll fall outside the realm of where i live in terms of rock snobbery. >> why would i say led zeppelin four? it's houses of the holy. is this even a question? >> it's a respectable choice. but my god, do not pick the album that has "stairway to heaven" on it, not the right choice. >> you just can't do it. thanks so much, john. and thank you to everybody for watching.

hope you have a great thanksgiving. let's turn it over right now to chris jansing. >> joe, "stairway to heaven" wasn't your prom theme? he's laughing. i'm chris jansing, in for stephanie ruhle. following several major developing stories right now. the implications of the explosive report from the "new york times" revealing that president trump wanted the justice department to prosecute two of his biggest political adversaries, hillary clinton and james comey. >> she lied like a dog on her e-mails. she should be in prison. >> comey is a leaker, and he's a liar. and not only on this stuff. he's been leaking for years. >> plus the growing backlash after president trump dismisses the cia's conclusion on the killing of journalist jamal khashoggi in a statement filled with exclamation points saying that maybe the crown prince knew