axios.com. "morning joe" starts right now. >> i'm very prepared, i've been preparing for it all my life. it's not like, oh, gee, i'm going to sit down and study, i know every ingredient, i know it every stat, i know it better than everybody knows it and my gut has always been right. >> my gut has always been right, that's president trump's take on his upcoming meeting in south america this week with china's leader. the president also set to sit down with vladimir putin and saudi crown prince mohammed bin salman. good morning, it is monday, november 26, with us here in new york we have veteran columnist and msnbc contributor mike barnicle, donny deutsch is with us, john heilemann, he is the co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus" also with us lauren leader who is co-founder and ceo of all in together a nonpartisan women's and civic organizations, also joining us in washington msnbc political analyst and former

chairman of the republican national committee, michael stee steele. joe and mika are off this week. they had a very busy weekend. joe and mika got married. a small private wedding took place saturday at the national archives in washington with the bill of rights and the constitution as a backdrop. congressman elijah cummings officiated the ceremony which he and joe wrote together. joe and mika were surrounded by all their children, their kids, family and a small group of their close friends were there with them in washington. our congratulations. mike, i talked to them last night, they sounded great, they're happy, excited of course, and you, my friend, were at the reception. >> yes, i was. >> how was it? >> it was wonderful. i mean, everybody deserves happiness and they were a very happy couple, it was a nice time, it was a wonderful reception as you pointed out the families on both sides, on mika's side and joe's side were

both there to celebrate with them and it was a very nice evening. >> unfortunately i had to do very early morning television on sunday in new york city so i couldn't be there, but i'm glad, mike, you stood in for all of us around this table. >> i couldn't be there, either, because i wasn't invited. >> well, there was that. >> joe and mika, they are really happy and it's nice to see. >> guys, congratulations. we will get on with the news as they would want us to do. american authorities temporarily closed the nation's busiest border crossing between san diego and tijuana yesterday as thousands of migrants from central america waited to apply for asylum. the san i didn't say droe port was then reopened around 6:00 yesterday evening. the shutdown came amid a day of strive in which u.s. customs and border protection said they used tear gas and pepper spray after several migrants threw rocks at border agents, striking them. no injuries were reported.

this after a reporter reported witnessing u.s. border agents fire tear gas on hundreds of migrants protesting near the border. after some attempted to get through the fencing and wire, frustration boiling over with the border agents processing only about 100 asylum petitions a day as more than 5,000 migrants wait in and around a cramped sports complex in tijuana after traveling through mexico in a caravan. president trump says he's given active duty troops at the border the okay to use lethal force against migrants, quote, if they have to. >> they said these are not like normal innocent people, these are people you talk to, i mean, they start a fistfight. i don't want that in this country. okay? >> mr. president, what about the idea that the military may use lethal force against these migrants. >> if they have to they're going to use lethal force. i've given the okay. if they have to. i hope they don't have to. >> according to "politico" it was a fiery west wing meeting

that led to the president granting troops the right to use lethal force at the border. three people briefed on the exchange telling "politico" a meeting last monday die solved into a melee pitting chief of staff john kelly and homeland security secretary kirstjen nielsen against other attendees who have supported the president's hawkish immigration committee. kelly and nielsen argued against signing the declaration for lethal force which granted the military broad authority at the border telling the president the move was beyond his constitutional powers. they were vocally opposed by steven miller as well as chris crane, the president of the national immigration and customs enforcement council and brandon judd, the president of the border patrol union. according to "politico" kelly and nielsen eventually came around to the president's position and the bitter dispute ended tuesday evening when kelly on president trump's orders, signed a cabinet declaration granting the military the disputed authority. john heilemann, let's start with

you on this part of the conversation. just what happened inside the west wing. we know when we read these stories the heroes are usually the people who talk to the publication about it. do you believe john kelly and kirstjen nielsen stood up to the president when he said i want to use lethal force against migrants waiting at the border or trying to cross at the border? >> i don't have any reason to disbelieve it on the reason of past reporting it seems consistent with their positions have been on this topic. there are obviously operational questions and it's often the case in situations like this where you find someone who has an affiliation with the military where, like john kelly does, who understands what happens when that kind of authority is granted, often it gets used in the heat of a moment and i think kelly sometimes his political instincts are not that great, but in this instance both from the standpoint of what a traditional military perspective would be on this and in this case i think the right political perspective in the sense that if there is going to be lethal

force used at the border it could be a disaster politically for the administration if that plays out. how much they stood up to him, i can't speculate, i don't know the answer to that question, but, as i said, it doesn't seem inconsistent with where they seemed to have been in these debates on the past. >> it's very important. there are a lot of dangerous people, fist fights. this is really important, look at the lethal force that our armed forces are going to have to use against this mom and her two little kids. i think it's really important that trump initiated the lethal force against these kids. >> lauren, you have a boiling ugly situation at the border where the president has granted the authority to use lethal force, the border patrol yesterday showed willingness to use tear gas against people throwing rocks allegedly and trying to come over the border. where do we go from here in this situation? what if many of these migrants cross the border and there is a military confrontation? >> first of all, it's illegal

and immoral above all else. it's profoundly immoral and illegal for a reason. we have a legal structure which allows people to apply for asylum through the customs enforcement wherever and however they enter the country. and the president doesn't care about that. to your point about whether or not they stood up, you know, they could have resigned. kirstjen nielsen could have resigned when the president asked her -- asked i.c.e. to rip children out of the arms of their parents in the last round of appalling so-called border security. i mean, the reality is that at the end of the day the president is surrounded with people who are willing to do basically anything whether or not it's illegal, let these immoral acts go to the courts and even in some cases when they go to the courts the president continues to question them. my only hope is that the military will have cooler heads. we have heard from some military leaders already saying that absolutely they are not firing on women and children who are unarmed at the border. there's questions on whether or not anyone threw rocks

yesterday. npr was reporting that it was relatively peaceful except that obviously they were trying to break through and get through because the waits are impossible, there are no services or support for them on the tijuana side. it's a disaster. we could have set agents to mexico months ago to prepare the asylum claims long in advance and we didn't do that. >> this comes against the backdrop of the president declaring over the weekend without mexico signing on to it where there would be a policy where asylum seekers would have to wait on the mexican side of the border, to wait for their hearing to see whether they were granted asylum which in many cases takes years. >> yeah, which is, again -- puts a lot of pressure on that borderline. you have a situation where folks are pressing up against the so-called wall on the one side, the u.s. is slow rolling on the other side to the point just made, there aren't the personnel in place. the military that's been sent there is not really prepared to

deal with this human influx. you know, they are used to engaging with combatants, not moms with children. so the mexican government and the u.s. government need to get into a space where they have some level of arrangement or agreement as to how this process is going to unfold so that this does not boil up into something bigger. my children is that the president would not be that put off if this thing did get much more heated and blew up because it would then make his point, see, these are bad people and we have to control and contain the border, but, yeah, if you create a pressure cooker at some point what's in that pot will blow up if it's not maintained properly and that is one of the drivers, i think, right now more than anything else. congress needs to step up and step in here to redirect the hands of the president.

>> you know, we ought not to be surprised by any of this. this is just another long line of chaos and incompetence brought to you by the trump administration. we do not have an ambassador to mexico, we have charged affairs in mexico city, the ambassador quit earlier this summer. we have three people i know, general mattis, general kelly and general dunford who clearly remember kent state in the spring of 1970 when the national guard in ohio had live ammunition. the united states army it would be a horrendous misuse of the united states military to have them firing on any civilian at any border and these people on the border donny just referenced it, the president of the united states -- we just heard him say that these people when you attempt to have a conversation with them they start a fistfight. i mean, that is beyond absurd. this is the president of the united states speaking. this is the president of the

united states encouraging an action that is so opposed to everything that this country stands for, but we ought not to be shocked because it happens nearly every day. >> don yeah, you know donald trump. the president thinks this looks tough. he thinks if you talk about having guys at the border with guns it's going to deter people from coming here. it was the same argument they used, that jeff sessions also used for the family sprags policy, it will deter people from coming here. this is what getting tough on immigration looks like to president trump. >> i love mr. tough guy who is tough on women and children but when it comes to the crown prince or putin, the tough people -- >> won't visit the troops because he is afraid of being hurt. >> he backs down like the woozy that he is. beyond the i'm morality and illegality of it, the political stupidness of it. we just came off an election -- >> i'm not to sure about that. >> he doubled, tripled, quadrupled down on the caravan. >> it works for him, though. >> last i looked we picked up close to 40 seats and won 9% in

the popular vote. it works with that score 38%, 39%, it does not work with the other 7% or 8% that he needs to win elections. people care about their healthcare, people care about their jobs. other than that small core, this does not work or at least it was proven in the last laboratory. >> but do you think that it works in the sense that the democrats have a continued failure to deal vocally, verbally, strongly with immigration? >> i think the president perceives it working and i think in some sense it matters -- i agree with you, donny, you are not going to -- the midterm elections were a vivid demonstration of exactly how this issue works for the president. it works in the sense that it reinforces his base, it drives turnout in certain places especially big white rural states, doesn't help him at all in the broader swath of the country that he needs to win if he's going to be reelected as president. none of that matters because all that matters is what he thinks. i don't mean all that matters in

the world but in this context. i think what he's trying to do is provoke a confrontation. >> right. >> you pointed at that picture on the front of the new york post and say these people are not a threat. what a lot of people saw on television last night was the breach in the fence and people pouring through it. i'm not endorsing this, i'm just telling you what donald trump is saying. what donald trump is saying is that image and in a lethal confrontation, he thinks that image will work for him politically. he's happy to have a situation that's incendiary, that might lead to the juxtaposition of that image with a military -- a united states military -- one of the troops having to shoot someone if he can provoke one violent confrontation in which someone who is a migrant looks as though they're engaging in violence against our troops, he thinks that works for him. again, i don't think it does work for him, but it doesn't matter what i think. in terms of the policy that he's going to pursue and the kind of -- the manipulative political

uses that it will be put towards and potential deadly uses, all that matters is what goes on in donald trump's head. he does not think he suffered repudiation last week and thinks this issue will continue to work for him four years from now. >> you mentioned -- john kelly mentioned kirstjen nielsen. you have to wonder where james mattis is in this, the defense secretary, decorated general, what does he think about soldiers with live ammunition given legal force authority at the border. >> i think he thinks it's unacceptable and not going to happen. these are moments when we are seeing a massive stress tress on our democracy and virtually every check and balance that we have and the military is one of them. we are not a military dictatorship. he is the commander in chief, but the military does have the authority to decide for themselves where there are moral lines that they will or won't cross. i hope he will stand up and absolutely refuse to enforce these illegal actions.

i think it would be devastating not just for all the reasons you've described in the human rights abuse, it would be devastating for the u.s. military who i guarantee you as an all volunteer force under enormous stress, we have folks not getting paid and getting evicted from their homes because they can't get paid on the gi bill and we are going to ask them to shoot women and children at the border, i would be shocked if mattis allows this to happen. president trump and chief justice john roberts were locked in a war of words over the u.s. jude shall system. the spat started after president trump complained of bias by a, quote, obama judge who blocked the president's migrant asylum policy. making a rare statement to the associated press just before thanksgiving justice roberts decided to openly rebuke president trump's comments. chief justice roberts said we do not have obama judges or trump judges, bush judges or clinton judges, what we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to

do equal rights to those those appearing before them. the president tripled down on his assessment both on twitter and after his thanksgiving call to u.s. troops stationed overseas. >> we don't have the right laws and we have people interpreting the laws and they always give us a back interpretation. so hopefully we've shown some light on the ninth circuit. i know that chief justice roberts, john roberts, has been speaking a little bit about it and i think we -- i have a lot of respect for him, i like him and respect him, but i think we have to use some common sense. >> so michael steele, you have donald trump in a debate over jude shall independence with the chief justice of the supreme court, john roberts. pretty astounding to hear the chief justice speak out publicly like that. >> it is. if you know anything about justice roberts coming into and establishing the roberts courts, the one thing that he wanted to

make sure was that under his leadership the court does not get sucked into this political vortex which certainly he saw firsthand during the obama years on issues like healthcare and other issues like that. so he has been very, very clear publicly and privately about, you know, just how far he sees this relationship between the press -- i mean the political world and the judicial world merging together. of course, the president loves the fight and the president of course wants to make the case against the ninth circuit, but the problem is the president doesn't know the ninth circuit from a circuit breaker so it doesn't really matter. but it's how he is pushing up against the system, again, one more institution that is in keeping with this idea of deconstructing the administrative state, the next wave of this is the court system and we've seen that over and over again now. >> extraordinary, though, that you would have the chief justice

of the supreme court believe a comment from the president rises to the level of his speaking out not necessarily in a political way, but in having to defend the judicial system in total. >> i mean, there's so many ex strord naer things that happen multiple times each day we will have to come up with another word other than extraordinary. on thanksgiving day when he is going back and forth with the chief justice of the united states, let's not forget he also in his thanksgiving message to the troops pointed out that he was thankful for all the great things that he had done for this country. i mean, the level of megillah mania here is so over the top it's incredible. at the end of the day we come back to the fact that he is president of the united states and he can involve us, this country, in all of these absurdities and the chief justice speaking out raises, i think, an obvious question. if the chief justice of the united states can speak out in defense of the judiciary, where are the republican members of

the united states senate or the republican members of the house of representatives, where are their voices in terms of speaking out for their independence against this onslaught of ridiculous assertions by the president that the united states army can shoot civilians at the border, that the ninth circuit and michael -- michael is exactly right, he doesn't know the difference between the ninth circuit and a circuit breaker. where are these voices of the republicans? >> i think you're going to start to see. i don't know if you guys feel a shift, particularly since the election. when he used to get out there and say we're going to shoot people at the border o you know, the jude shall system should report to me, whatever, you sensed fear and anger. now there is almost a pathetic chuckle that happens when he speaks. he really seems to me at least just viscerally to have been defanged. i would start to shake and want to steam at the tv, now there is a clown aspect to it.

without the danger -- >> he's still president. >> he's still president, but you started to see a little bit with the saudi arabia thing, with lindsey graham, they're starting to peek out a little bit and speak up. i think you will see more and more of that. i don't think the big bad wolf seems as bad anymore. >> the political calculus for the republicans in the senate is that a lot of the senate races that were run by republicans because they aligned themselves with the president. you see lindsey graham who at one point was a voice for pretty right hand foreign policy and was fairly critical of the president early on, now has completely doubled down for his support for virtually anything and everything that the president says. that's the polarization that happened in the midterms. yes, the democrats won huge majority in the house, but the senate -- the senate republicans who won, they won largely on the support of the president. so their calculus changes, it gives them even less incentive to fight him and a number of the senators who have been willing to be independent on this are now leaving the senate. >> i don't really think anything has changed so far and i

appreciate donny, your visceral sense of things. the reality is that the republican party in the house is more conservative than it was before because the moderate members have been defeated. >> or left. >> whatever you call moderate republicans are no longer there in the house and the senate has a bunch of new members who rode in on trump's coat tails, i put quotes around that, but tied themselves to trump like josh holly, those people are dedicated to trump and you have people like mitch mcconnell afraid to get primaried, so mcconnell that's his greatest fear, he is up for reelection in 2020 the only way he will lose in kentucky is if someone takes him on from the trump right. there may come a day where this all kicks in, where the losses that they suffered, what it means for them legislatively, when subpoenas start to fly, if the president's approval rating starts to not just go down a little bit but we start to see

it get down in the low 30s, you might see republicans then start to change their calculations, but on the basis of what we're seeing right now in this moment, you know, apart from the occasionally lone republican voice who speaks out, we've heard those people for two years, they speak out for two seconds and don't do anything. nothing has dramatically changed. it may but not so far. >> senator chuck grassley came out and questioned john roberts, why didn't you come out for obama when alito criticized -- >> it was alito who rebuked obama. >> that was a sign of senility as much as anything. >> that's reassuring. >> no, in this case there was someone more senile than you, mike. still ahead, much more on the confrontations at the border and if the president got ahead of himself when he said people seeking asylum must remain in mexico while their claims are being processed.

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i'm in product development at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. there is some confusion this morning over weather the u.s. and mexico have reached a deal that would require asylum seekers to remain in mexico while their claims are being decided, mexico incoming interior minister told the washington for now we have agreed to this policy calling it a short term solution. when the incoming president said no such deal had been reached his cabinet official backtracked from her original statement. still president trump tweeted this, migrants at the southern border will not be allowed into the united states nool their claims are individually approved in court. we only will allow those who come into our country legally. other than that our very strong policy is catch and detain, no releasing into the u.s. all will stay in mexico. if it becomes necessary we will

close our southern border. there is no way the united states will after decades of abuse put up with this costly and dangerous situation anymore. a couple tweets there from president trump. joining us now national security reporter for nbc news julia ainsley. julia, you've been reporting on this story closely all weekend. deal or no deal, is this a policy or is it a policy they are still discussing and negotiating? >> i think it's the latter. people i've talked to who are involved in these negotiations say that mexico wants quite a bit in return. this really isn't something that the u.s. or president trump can unilaterally decide in a tweet, this is a humongous burden for mexico if they're talking about housing and finding the resources for thousands of migrants. it inevitably built up in a bottleneck on the u.s. border because it can take two years in some cases to get through the asylum process. some of the things that mexico wants in are your honor is for the united states to put into explicit terms what they're going to do to try to improve the economic situation in these

countries that's driving these migration in the first place. these are things that the trump administration talked about in its very early days, then secretary of homeland security john kelly who was the head of southern command in the military before he had that job understands the poverty and the violence these people are fleeing, but over and over again other policies, steven miller-led policies have prevailed that focus more on what they call the loophole factors, rather than the economy, the violence, the gangs that are driving these people out. so that's what mexico wants them to focus on now. another thing i will say is that this idea of these people waiting in mexico is something that the trump administration has really been working toward for a long time. we've heard a lot of officials tell us this on background saying that a lot of these policies were geared just toward that, of not letting them come through the port of entries, saying it would be illegal to claim asylum if they came through between ports of entry. all of the things they've done

not to allow people to come through the ports of entry quickly, they don't staff them up the way they should, that is all to create a bottleneck where they would need to stay in mexico. we can see the violence, we can see the repercussions that such a policy would lead to just by seeing what's happened in the last 24 hours right there in the pictures you're showing. >> the president is tweeting already this morning just part of it, he says mexico should move the flag waving migrants many of whom are stone cold criminals back to their countries. he goes on how they should do it in his view. the argument from the president, and he is not alone in this for people who support the idea of making the migrants wait in mexico for their hearings, they come to the united states, get a hearing date and go off into the united states and effectively become illegal undocumented immigrants into the united states. is that actually a problem or do most of the migrants waiting for a hearing actually show up for the hearing and go through the process? >> it's a problem the obama administration found as well, willie, but there are other ways to get around this.

one thing the obama administration did was called alternatives to detention where they would put often mothers with children on ankle monitors that had to show where they were as they waited for their court date. they would also get regular check-ins and calls. that does take some money, resources, but it's cheaper than keeping them in indefinite detention. they found when the ankle monitors were on people were likely to show up for their court date because the u.s. government knew exactly where they were. now, there are always cases where that could be faulty, people fall through the cracks, but that was one way. another way is just to get more immigration judges. if we hire more immigration judges then people get through the process faster, there are more people there to adjudicate these claims. >> the backlog is in the hundreds of thousands in these courts. >> you know, julia just alluded to this, but the root of this is why are these people coming to america? why are they coming to the border? it's obvious, i mean, they are seeking a better safer life in

the united states of america. normally under normal political conditions normal governmental conditions we would have an ambassador in honduras, we don't. we have an ambassador in guatemala. you could deal with the root causes of their existence in their home countries, the incredibly high crime rate, the incredible association with gangs that kill kids if they don't join the gangs so they flee for the safety of their children and families. but we have lost a lot of our moral force in the world. i mean, when we are basically having a president of the united states saying, you know, hey, he could have done it or maybe he didn't do it, you know, in ib is a. you can't very well go to honduras and guatemala and say shape up. >> can i ask you as a practical matter, does anyone know the length of the u.s./mexico border. >> 1,900 miles. >> from the pacific ocean to the gulf of mexico. >> 1,900 miles, but if necessary we're going to close that border down. >> we're trying to have a

rational discussion about something that is not being handled in any rational way with any thought or forethought around policy. of course we could have more immigration judges, there are other ways to deal with migrants and those seeking asylum, there are alternatives to trying to shoot people and send tear gas to the border. this is infinite numbers of alternatives. they are not interested. that is not what this is about. and that is the point that you made before. this is about a perception that these people are invading our country and it's an us and them strategy which has worked for the president which i think is deeply rooted in his own discrimination and racism which we are seeing manifest in the american foreign policy. it's terrible. >> we're seeing it again in that tweet this morning, the president is enjoying this conversation and having this be front and center in the united states. julia ainsley, thanks so much. still ahead, president trump heading to the g20 summit later this week and says he already has all the preparation he will ever need. we will preview his meetings

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president trump will head to argentina later this week for the g20 summit in buenos aires. on the agenda, an expected sideline sit down with russia's vladimir putin for what the kremlin is calling a, quote, long and substantive meeting. the president is also set to meet with china's xi jinping amid trump's ongoing trade and tariff battles with beijing, that is in addition to military tensions simmering just beneath the surface in the south china sea. saudi arabia's king salman and crown prince mohammed bin salman also will be there, the first time they will be face-to-face with world leaders since jamal khashoggi's murder. joining us now, dr. evelyn farkas, a senior fellow at the atlantic. >> good to be back.

>> what are you looking for come this week when president trump arrives? >> well, i would love it if he offered a lot of firm messages to unfortunately more than -- at least two people you mentioned, right? first one of course is the crown prince, mohammed bin salman. he should be giving very strong signals to him that he needs to come clean on what happened with khashoggi. >> didn't he already have the opportunity to do that and passed on it? >> i know. >> a girl can dream. >> we have to expect our president to at least carry the water and give firm messages, so that's the first one, right? we can talk more about that. the second one is vladimir putin. i mean, just yesterday the russians took unnecessary aggressive moves, they escalated the situation in the sea of asov, blocked off the -- blocked off some ukrainian ships. there is agreement to allow freedom of navigation, the russians fired on some of the ukrainian vessels, the short version is basically the russians opened another front on

the maritime front. there is already the ongoing war in the eastern part of u yan. so the president should be telling vladimir putin cut it out, if you don't cut it out we will supply more lethal defensive munitions to the ukrainians and sanction you hardest and faster. >> both of the people you have described would go without saying that they would confront both of those. do you have confidence someone can get to the president and tell him he needs to confront putin and the crown prince. given the fact that he in the base of bin salman had the chance and didn't do it and the last time he was with putin he was given a chance to confront putin on russian medden and passed on that. >> i don't expect that much from the president. i do expect his cabinet and the people advising him to make the points that should be made, certainly the professionals, secretary mattis, john kelly, you know, all those people who

have been in government who understand what the stakes are, they also understand the reality of congress. some of those folks, bolton certainly understands what congress can do, the power that congress has to block. the war in yemen has to come to an end, that one should be easy for the president because he claims that he doesn't like war, right? so that one should be easy. at least he can do that. but there are other things, the saudis should and probably will not be allowed now to get a nuclear deal from us, a civil nuclear deal from the united states, which is something that wasn't really in the headlines until recently. that should be blocked right now because it looks like it may be part of their attempt to have a nuclear weapons hedge plan, right, against iran and others. something we've known that they had kind of in their back pocket in the back of their brains, but it may be more of a concern for congress now. >> evelyn, michael steele is in washington with a question for you. >> hey, evelyn. >> hi, michael. >> is it your assessment that given this isolationist push by this administration, both

politically as well as in terms of its foreign policy and its relationship to these foreign leaders, what are our european allies thinking right now in terms of stepping into this gap that's been created by this administration despite the efforts of mattis and others, the president is the final arbiter and he doesn't want to play nice, he doesn't want to play with anybody except putin primarily. are allies looking at this and saying, maybe we will emerge and redirect this relationship, this global relationship as opposed to relying on the united states? >> so, michael, what we heard about a month ago or less at the anniversary of the world war i commemoration was words to the effect that, yes, we europeans need to step up, we need to take leadership. we can't wait for the united states. in fact, if the united states is working counter to our interests, we have to be ready to counter the situates. so president macron of france, we hear of course angela merkel

said even before that that germany has to be prepared to defend itself and look out for itself. these two leaders i think they will step up, but i think their words are a little bit ahead of what they're ready to do. what happened yesterday in the sea of asov between ukraine and russia is a wake-up call to them, certainly on the issue of yemen and saudi arabia, we've seen already the germans came out very strongly right away saying, you know, we are not selling any arms to saudi arabia anymore, whereas the united states and a couple of other european allies, spain and others, are still selling arms to saudi arabia, so not as clear with regard to consequences. >> i will let you take it to evelyn, but if you look at the case of saudi arabia the president is twisting himself in knots to exonerate the crown prince. the cia has a high confidence assessment that the killing of khashoggi was ordered by the crown prince, but the president says of the cia assessment they did not come to a conclusion, they have feelings, certain ways, but i have the report. they have not concluded, nobody

has concluded. i don't know if anyone could conclude the crown prince did it. the cia says they did it, they do point out certain things, you can conclude that maybe he did or maybe he didn't. he's all over the place on this because he doesn't want to pin it on the crown prince. >> i mean, it's really unbelievable because if we are not willing to listen to our own intelligence, what kind of position does that put us in terms of long-term national security. it's pretty extraordinary because apparently the cia has audio recordings of mbs actually calling for retribution against khashoggi and the fact that we even know that speaks to what's going on in the cia that they've been putting out information that we all now know about how they're getting the intelligence. question i had for you, evelyn, is about the humanitarian response, reports that 85,000 children have died already of malnutrition in yemen. is us aid in any way involved in some on the ground in yemen? who is actually -- it seems there is no -- virtually no humanitarian response. is that also part of this diplomatic problem that the u.s. isn't responding even in terms

of humanitarian aid? >> i don't know the details. i know the u.n. is there and the u.n. has been trying really hard to negotiate an end to the blockade. there has been some fighting that was -- basically the saudis and the uae backing the forces in em whien, so one faction in yemen, they basically said go ahead and launch a new offensive to take a port, but the port is where all the u.n. food assistance comes in, so that's why -- that's in part why the humanitarian crisis has become so much worse. unfortunately we haven't put enough pressure on the saudis and uae to stop their offensive. we are probably providing assistance through usaid, that's something that we normally do, but not something that donald trump will highlight. >> we will be watching all of it, the president in buenos aires this week. coming up next on "morning joe" -- >> i think the report is going to be devastating to the president and i know that the president's team is already working on a response to the

report. >> that is legal scholar and frequent trump defender alan dershowitz with a warning about the mueller probe. we will have the latest on the special counsel's investigation ahead on "morning joe."

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after 020 months of negotiations european union leaders agreed to tuckhe uk's brexit deal. the endorsement brings an end to negotiations which began in march 2017. the president of the european commission urged the uk's parliament to ratify the deal saying it's the best deal possible and only deal possible. parliament is expected to vote on the agreement on december 12th but the approval of brexit is far from guaranteed. the uk is scheduled to leave the eu on march 29th. a report was released on friday on climate change.

the fourth national estimate warns expanded wildfires in california and the southeast, crop failures in the midwest, disruptive global supply change and distress infrastructure which would set the u.s. economy back decades. earlier in the week the president had tweeted brutal and extended cold blast could shatter all records. whatever happened to global warming? but, in fact, 2016, '15 and '17 rank as the world's three warm est on record. obviously president trump knows what he's doing there. weather and climate change are two different things. the report comes from his administration. 13 agencies getting together to put up a flare, wave a red flag about how are you accident climate change is. >> it seems clear he tried to bury it by having the report released on thanksgiving.

people who follow this stuff paid attention to it. this will become a bigger and bigger political issue particularly as more and more millennials start participating politically. we talked about this the last time i was here. i was concerned millennials wouldn't turn out in the mid-terms. they did and in huge numbers. for millennials climate change and environmental issues top the list of concerns and i think as you see them get more politically active more attention will be paid to this. when we see effects on farms, when climate change effects start be geographically diverse across the united states not just in california this, is becoming a bigger and bigger issue for us. there's climate refugees which are affecting the immigration issues here and in europe and around the world. it's an unavoidable issue. the federal government sees it whether or not the administration wants to. >> by the end of this century, gdp based on all the things of

people getting sick and farms and economies would be off 10%. in the great depression gdp was off by 4%. the devastation on the economy beyond the human toll would set us back to what was going on in the great depression. >> will this change the dynamics? particularly republicans. we saw the usual suspects come out over the weekend well these scientists are in it for the morning. rick santorum said. other people questioned the research. this is 13 federal agencies and department that got together to put out this climate assessment and said this is a massive problem. let's work together to figure out how to slow it down or stop it. >> within the government itself you have very smart policy people, scientists and others who are doing the study, who are doing the work and trying to lay

down the tracks for future administrations, not just the current administration to get ahead of this particular climate issue. the problem they are going to have is the current administration, this is anathema to. they don't buy the science or the policy. so, again, the eyes shift to congress. if you have members of congress already who are willing to come out and sort of saying this is crazy left wing science fiction, then what we're going to see is the situation get worse. i don't see a political solution any time in this administration. certainly not coming off the hill as long as the president has the position he has. so, you know, the scientists will continue to put out the reports. this administration will continue to ignore them and make fun of them or use themes a political tool in upcoming elections and the situation gets

worse. >> the report may have been buried on the friday after thanksgiving but it count be more clear. >> retired air force michael hayden was hospitalized last week after suffering a stroke. he's receiving expert medical care for which the family is grateful and we wish the general a very speedy recovery. a very smart guy but a great guy. >> you know, he's actually the model for what you want from a civil servant. head of the nsa, head of the cia, honorable, honest to a fault, unafraid of speaking truth to power, a gentleman, and our friend, as you said and we can only wish him the speediest of recoveries. >> still ahead on "morning joe" u.s. border agents using tear gas on migrants trying to enter the u.s. illegally. the president is up and tweeting about the migrant situation

threatening to shut down the southern border permanently, quote if need be. "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪ the united states postal service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ with one notable exception. ♪

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>> mr. president, from our perspective out on the water, sir, we're seeing there's an abundance of trade happening in the region. >> when you do the new carriers as we do and as we're thinking about doing, would you go with steam or go with electro magnetic, because steam is very reliable. and the electro magnetic, i mean, unfortunately we have to be albert einstein to work it properly. what would you do? >> yes, sir, sort of have to be albert einstein to run the nuclear power plants as well but we're doing that very well. >> two portions of the president's conversations with military leaders by phone over the thanksgiving holiday. welcome back to "morning joe". it is monday, november 26th. still with us we have mike barn cal. donny deutsch is with us.

and relatively well behaved john heilema heilemann. also msnbc political analyst michael steele and joining our conversation white house correspondent for pbs news hour and white house bureau chief at the "washington post" and political analyst for msnbc and nbc news phillip rucker. >> if you went back to that tape of trump he's reading the questions. he went down like this. he looks up. that was a completely scripted choreographed reality tv moment brought to us. >> i'm shocked to think that. >> he's very busy. >> president trump is heading to mississippi today to hold two rallies for senator cindy hyde-smith ahead of tomorrow's senate runoff in the state. president trump will rally voters as republican hyde-smith

faces the democrat. major league baseball has requested that hyde-smith return its $5,000 donation to her campaign in the wake of controversial comments she's made. earlier this month hyde-smith joked with supporters about sitting on the front row of a public hanging. the donation by mlb was made on friday three weeks after that comment. mlb spokesperson said in a statement given to "usa today" sports, quote the contribution was made in connection with an event that mlb lobbyists were asked to attend. mlb has requested the contribution to be returned. >> could you clarify and articulate -- >> if i hurt anybody's feelings -- you know we're staying on tissues that's on people's minds. >> phil rucker, let's talk about this race. cindy hyde-mitt had a rough couple of weeks to put it mildly. does the democrat in red

mississippi, a state that president trump won by 18 points have a shot in this run offtomorrow? >> well, he seems to have more of a shot today than he did a month ago, but he appears to be at a disadvantage in mississippi in part because republicans have such a natural built in advantage in that state. it's one of the most conservative states in the union. you know, strategists are expecting the vote to break down largely along ethnic racial lines with espy trying to turn out as many african-american voters as he can to support him. the problem he faces is a simple one of math. there's many more white voters in mississippi than black voters. that being said republicans are nervous about cindy hyde-smith. they feel she's a weak candidate. she's had a number of stumbles. if she doesn't have high turn out in the election this week that's going to be a problem for her. >> the public hanging comment has now opened the door to a

greater examination of her past which has a lot of instances in which she has had praise for neo-confederate groups and attempted to rename a highway after jefferson davis. she was photographed in a confederate hat the other day. all of that kind of goes to the larger question that's being played out in mississippi. she's clearly someone who has a lot of sympathies with the neo-confederate movement and the white supremacist who still dominate a large part of that state as a voting block. you're having this question that they have in alabama around doug jones' opponent. the question became a matter of does the state -- became an image of the state. does this state want to look as though it's alive with the future, alive with the past.

she's in trouble now because her views and her history, she went to a segregation academy i believe as a school kid. her history and her affiliations are problematic in and of themselves but that's becoming a litmus test on the ballot question, now not just comparing candidates but what kind of a state do we want to be. that's the question that voters are confronted why she has more trouble. >> actually a very interesting question. if you talk to people who live in mississippi, i mean there's a real question now. this woman represent as past that they are trying to put in the past. and we're going to see what happens, obviously. >> let's remind yoourselves, ev though roy moore lost, this man had been accused multiple times of being a pedophile with a reprehensible lynch joke will have the same power as a pedophile, i don't think so.

>> donny put his finger on the pulse. you're sitting up a straw dog argument. one was about sexual predatory behavior of a candidate. the other is about views of a candidate that some, some may deem to be racist while significant portion of folks may not. i think the question is how has mississippi geographically. yes there's this push in the south generally to move quote into the future and to sort of erase that racist past but we're not there yet. to the point that was made earlier to the number of voters that espy need of white voters, that's the hurdle he'll not be able to overcome i think in the end. >> a professor was on the seat last week making a plea to african-american voters in

mississippi. he wants them to get out and vote for mike espy. is that enough to put him over the top or enough of those white voters in the state of mississippi who will overlook, be willing to overlook some of these stories we've seen from cindy hyde-smith to make the difference? >> it's very important to turn out african-americans. if mike espy wants to win. if he really wants to carry the state. the problem, of course, with that argument is, and it's this idea that african-americans can't be the savior for all these states in the south and florida. people look at black people and look only black people turned out. that's just not true. there are going to be white people who need to vote and look at cindy hyde-smith and say do we want somebody like this to represent our state. she's embracing trump in a way that makes me happy. the fact that the president is

going there tells me that white house aides and the people who are on the president's 2020 campaign are looking at that race, looking at that state and saying his presence is a good thing for this state and the race. as a result this will be admonish raciallyized. i would not be surprised if the president went there and started joking she had a couple of gaffes, who cares this woman needs to represent mississippi. that's not a surprising aspect. it goes back to yes black people should vote as white people should vote. >> i don't want to misrepresent the argument. he was saying white people need to be allies as well. >> to michael steele's point there's a difference between roy moore and hyde-smith. but i think the broad point is these became, both these races became about something larger than the respective candidates and their positions on the various issues.

you do have a situation in alabama where donald trump wrapped his arms around moore and this coalition, an unprecedented turnout of african-american voters in alabama and african-american women, aligned with a bunch of suburban prosperous up wardly mobile voters who looked at roy moore, this is not the image we want of our state in 2018. i think there's no doubt that mike espy is still the underdog in this race but there's a way in which you could see that particular combination of geographics and symbolic moment. don't be surprised, again, not where you want to bet the mortgage, but don't be surprised you could see a similar thing play out in mississippi. >> again just two years ago president trump won the state by 18 points. we'll see what happens tomorrow. the race in california's 21st district is tighter with the republican congressman

leading the democratic challenger by fewer than 450 votes. nbc news called this race for the incumbent after the initial results three weeks ago. the democrats lead in the national popular vote has reached eight points, continues to climb as more results are counted. with president trump back on the campaign trail politico is looking at the warning signs for his 2020 re-election bid. three items of note. president trump is the only president whose approval rating has never passed 50% in the gallup poll. democrats made major gains in michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin which gave trump and electoral college victory and the record turnout in 2018 suggests the president's supporters came out to vote and his party lost anyway. donny, look at the snapshot of 2018, overlay that to 2020. >> here's the other thing. the economy is so, doing so well and he's so over delivering as far as the economic numbers as a

positive 16 yet you put in a negative 11, he has a 27 point spread between what would happen his popularity and the economy. when you're going up against an economy that's going that strong and you lose that badly -- i want to go back to 28%. that is a bigger margin than obama beat mccain or mitt romney by. that's a huge margin in a national election. he lost by 8.5 points. the economy is booming. his popularity has never been above 50% right now stands at 39%. you say what is the good news over the next two years? i can give you more bad news starting with mueller and ending jayne when the democratic congress comes in. the backdrop for the next two years is investigation after investigation and mueller will not be his biggest problem. his biggest problem will be his businesses, his foundations, we have never had a president who comes to us with a history -- if you think about bill clinton,

barack obama, george w. bush, they didn't come with a 30, 40 year resume of not just public life but business hijinks. >> what about that bullet proof, states that gave president trump the presidency that put him over the top by 77,000, 78,000 votes seemed anyway in this mid-term election to have swung the other way on him. >> yeah. willie, that's significant. those are three states that strategists at the white house and in trump's re-election campaign are looking at very closely. they want to reverse that trend, obviously. they need to reverse that trend. those are also states, by the way, that the president feels an emotional connection to from the 2016 campaign. he loves the fact that he made pennsylvania red. that he made michigan red.

that he campaigned in wisconsin and hillary clinton didn't. so the fact that he lost or that republicans, rather, lost so badly in those three states really stings from this mid-term campaign and i expect in the early months of 2019 we'll see the white house and the trump re-election campaign try to make some political moves to build up his popularity there and put those states more in play for the re-election campaign two years from now. >> phil, let me ask you. you know more than most people know. jim baker and leon panetta are not chief of staff. not a well run white house. not a functioning white house the way we're used to white house being up to speed. what's the sense within the white house, the preparation within the white house for the level of chaos that's about to ensue? i mean the mueller investigation is going to conclude at some point in time, maybe sooner

rather than later in the upcoming january 2nd democratic congress taking place, the house taking control of the house. what's the level of preparation, angst, fear, whatever within the white house. >> it's a great question. they are pretty far behind, to be honest and i think come january mueller is going to be not as big a concern for a lot of those in the white house as the democratic majority will be there. there's going to be investigations left and right. the white house is not prepared for it. the white house counsel is not fully staffed right now. the staff have not experience this before. they never had an opposition party in control in congress. they've had it pretty good for the last two years with republicans controlling things on capitol hill but they will not be able to -- the white house will not be able to control these investigations, which are going to look into the president's personal finances as willie was getting into, but also into the family, into ivanka's e-mail use, into

corruption or allegations of corruption throughout the federal agencies. you look at ryan zinke who is secretary of interior. he'll be a huge target. i think the white house is illinoill prepared at this hour. >> we'll have jerry nadler on the show in a little while who will take over when the democrats take power in january. what's the white house, as you cover the posture towards people like jerry nadler and adam schiff. how do they feel about a new washington than they had over two years where they controlled every aspect of the government. knowing subpoenas coming. there will be hearings and investigations. how concerned is the white house now >> the white house is very concerned. you only have the to go back to what the president said himself, if the democrats are to investigate me it's really going to be game over and i won't want to work with them. the president does not like the

idea he'll have to be subject to democrats questions and democrats subpoenas either him or his children. there's this idea that maybe as president he won't have to respond to all of the questions that the democrats have. but ivanka, erik trump, donald trump jr. these are people in the president's orbit that could have ethics questions or ethics violations related to the work they are doing or their existence in meeting with russians. there's concern for the president to try to already play "hardball" and say look if you want to play this game i'll basically shut down the government and all deal making. white house aides are wondering, do we have any legal liability? are we open to any legal action? i go back to omarosa who frequently talked in meetings, do you have a lawyer, i have my lawyer. people don't trust each other and feel they need to be

protected from whatever is coming down the road. >> you raise the point about the white house not being prepared for this. but isn't it true to a certain extent that's okay with the president as well because from his perspective, yeah he'll say if they investigate me i won't work with them. but he loves the idea of the foil. he loves the idea of this opposition that's now going to emerge with democrats. as he looks down the road to 2020 done he see an opportunity to use them against themselves, to make himself the victim and put in context how he sees these things and the white house staff will just kind of fend for themselves in large measure. >> i think the president definitely will use the democrats and all their investigations as a way to really have a talking point on the campaign trail. you can imagine his stump speeches will be look at all they did in the two years we gave them power. they are really after me. i think what he'll say to his supporters they want to

delegitimize somebody you voted for. this is what the president has said since day one. as a result they want to take away from your rightful president and replace it with someone else. the problem, of course, if the democrats come up with actual evidence, if there are actual indictments that come out of their investigations it gets harder and harder for the president to say the democrats are going after me. if you have a donald trump that ends up in jail or takes a plea deal. >> you got your hands on this new book "trump enemies." written by the former campaign manager and deputy campaign manager. who are trump's enemies? >> willie, in their estimation there are a lot of enemies embedded within the government and they look at different areas. they look at the white house and especially a number of former white house officials but people

like gary cohn, the former press secretary, they consider these folks to be sort of working against the president, either shift his style in some way or to signing aspects of his agenda that they don't agree with. they detail people on capitol hill not only the prominent democrats like adam schiff the ranking member of the intelligence committee in the house, but also some republicans who they feel are trying the to block the trump agenda, and most importantly i think for this book, they look at what they call the deep state, the intelligence agencies, the department of justice, the fbi, areas where they feel like people are not only, officials are not only trying to block the president's agenda but trying to delegitimize his presidency all together. these are not new names. the book is sort of the list of the laundry list of the people that trump has been going after on twitter and they put into book form a lot of the president's grievances that

we're familiar with. >> they do go after yon kelly who is the sitting chief of staff. in the book they accuse him of caging the president, not letting president trump be president trump which was corey's line. is there any question that president trump had some sort of sign off. he sat for an interview. these are not two men who would write a book that would cross president trump. >> no. they don't cross president trump in the book. i assume the book is the product of some conversations that they've had with president trump and as you mentioned there's that interview with president trump that's in the book, the pages are actually in sort of a bold tint. so as you flip through the book you can find the interview pages. very friendly interview, by the way. corey lewandowski flew on air force one with the president a number of times in the mid-term campaigns. they talk a lot and i think this book, while it's not written by

president trump it certainly is influenced by him. >> phil rucker with the reader's digest version. still ahead on "morning joe" president trump's lawyers hope the mueller investigation would be over around thanksgiving. last thanksgiving. more than a year later the president is just getting written answers to the special counsel's questions. we'll have the latest developments in the mueller probe. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back.

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robert mueller. according to the associated press, the president still has not spoken directly to mueller's team and he may never. meanwhile a federal judge has denied the efforts by george papadopoulos to delay 14 day jail sentence for lying to federal investigators looking into russian meddling in the 2016 campaign. attorneys for papadopoulos asked the judge for a delay due to active appeals in the case focused on robert mueller's authority. the judge wrote papadopoulos has failed to demonstrate that the appeals court is likely to conclude that mueller's appointment was unlawful. papadopoulos has been ordered to turn himself in today. joining us now staff writer for the atlantic covering national security and the intelligence community, natasha bertrand and legal analyst for nbc news and msnbc mia wiley. let me ask you about the state of the president's testimony.

he's been answering written questions. he said he did it himself. we know he had help from his attorneys. is there a way for robert mueller to get the president in front of the special counsel. how does he sit for an interview? >> there are two separate pathways. one is the interview which is voluntary and robert mueller has been trying to negotiate where and how the president will answer questions. that's why they started with written questions and as we know robert mueller is trying to get more answers because apparently they were not sufficient answers in donald trump's last round. the other way is, of course, subpoena. subpoena him before the grand jury. that, obviously, for robert mueller is something that he has been working to avoid. he's been working towards cooperation. you showed the clip of donald trump saying he was happy to talk to him, happy to cooperate. you know, there was a split in the legal team for donald trump, if you'll recall last year. those who were trying to protect

him from perjury, essentially have been fighting hard and we know even as of last summer working very hard to prepare their defense to a subpoena. so, if all continues on the path it's on, i would suspect we may very well see a constitutional battle over the power of the special counsel to subpoena a sitting president. >> do you hold out the possibility that bob mueller may never speak face-to-face with donald trump or that anyone from the special counsel's office will ever speak to the president? >> certainly a possibility. the president does not have to volunteer to be interviewed by robert mueller. right? that's a choice that he can make and his legal team is obviously telling him don't do it because if he does, he runs the risk of perjury, which is an impeachable offense. not with standing any of the other evidence on any of the other charges that may be awaiting donald trump, perjury is a very clear one that they are explicitly concerned about, and so i would be very surprised

if he volunteers. >> clearly bob mueller like any good prosecutor would like to ask follow up questions. big picture, natasha, nobody is inside the special counsel's investigation, but we're pretty deep into it now. as i said earlier the white house had hoped it would be over by last thanksgiving. now we've come to a conthanksgiving. come and gone. where are we in bob mueller's investigation, his looking into the interference of the election. >> we're reaching a critical point especially audiotape mid the reports that corsi is negotiating with the special counsel. that's danger for roger stone. if corsi is telling the general counsel he's talking about the podesta emails that julian assange had in 2016 before they were released then that could mean roger stone perjured himself before congress. it could mean roger stone may flip against the president. of course he said he would never

do that but there are people in trump's orbit who have said they would never turn on the president like michael cohen who is now cooperating. we're getting to a point where we will see the president start to get more and more anxious because the report about manafort's cooperation with mueller is due today. and they asked for a ten day extension on that which was pretty unusual. everybody is expecting there's some kind of big new revelation about manafort's cooperation with mueller that may come out today. we still have to determine whether or not the trump campaign and trump himself, whether then candidate trump actually knew about the trump tower meeting and what his son has been telling people and whether his son donald trump jr. is going to be indicted by the special counsel as he's been telling his associates. so there's a lot that we have yet too, that we expect to come in the next year or so, coming

early next year in the spring. i don't think this will be over by the new year. and we have to wait and see what mueller says, of course, in his final report which i also don't think he'll release during a lame duck congress. i think if anything he'll wait until the new congress is sitting for that. of course, we still have the congressional investigations that are continuing. congressman adam schiff said he was going to look into money laundering and whether trump is beholding to russian interests over the course of his career. the president is trying to change the subject because he's afraid of that. >> who is running the russian investigation? is rod rosenstein still --s -- heard conflicting reports on who is in charge. obviously whittaker is in charge of rod rosenstein. who is on the line? >> it's rod rosenstein currently. he's not stepped aside from his

direct oversight role of mueller. but, whittaker has the ultimate authority. anything mueller wants to do if whittaker vetoes it he has that power. >> what's right now the outlook for when the president will be putting forward an actual permanent attorney general, at least a nominee? >> we have no sense. >> he's got 210 days under the vacancy act. going back to your question, john, one thing that's important for us all to note here is if robert mueller has an indictment that he's ready to drop, whittaker absolutely has the power to stop him. >> so, what's your assessment, each of you, in terms of a big element in this story that hasn't received a whole lot of coverage. the appointment of the next attorney general. right now you have matthew whitaker, acting attorney general. he has no business being attorney general. >> none. >> so, if the appointment of the next attorney general is someone who the career people at

justice, the department of justice view as someone who would strip out the unpinnings of the mission of the department of justice, what happens, potentially to the department itself? >> i think what we're seeing and have been seeing over the past two years, first of all s-a dis deep erosion of the department itself and a big concern of the rule of law and whether the department will remain an independent law enforcement agency that pays primary attention to the laws of the land. i think what happens if we have -- we know it can't be whittaker, legally it can't be whittaker because he would have to be removed from the acting position lawfully to then be nominated to be permanent. so we don't expect that to happen right now. but if it was someone whittaker-like, what you would see one a lot of career attorneys who have been bipartisan, not focused on politics, who have been in it

for the career, for law enforcement, for the rule of law, leaving. and that actually would be devastating because then you could watch a department essentially become shaped by new attorney general. >> to that point, natasha, a lot of people understandably probably think the department of justice is what donald trump has outlined to it be, my attorney general, this is my department of justice, rod rosenstein come down to the white house and we'll have a meeting whether you can stay on or not. but it's much, much more than that. the every day activities of the career professionals in doj perform a function that goes underestimated by the american public and the danger is that if a lot of them leave what do we have? >> absolutely. i think how quickly we forget that just last week it was reported that donald trump tried to use the justice department to prosecute hillary clinton and james comey last year. he essentially wanted to justice the justice department as his

own personal kind of, you know, police force. and that is extremely troubling and everyone that i spoke to, current and former doj officials said that goes completely counter to the mission of the justice department and that if donald trump were actually to make a move to order the doj to go after his political enemies, to order the doj to go after any individual at all. usually the president, it's understood has the authority to outline and set broad policy initiatives. the idea he would go after his political enemies is something that would cause many in the department of justice to resign, kind of en masse. i think there's a built in mechanism whereby there would be a serious push back against any efforts for trump to politicize the justice department to that extent. damage has already been done. the perception of the justice department right now in the country is that it is kind of what donald trump has made it out to be just because he's hammered this point home so much on twitter and elsewhere that

they are all just out to get him and he berated his attorney general for not doing what he wanted him to do which was to protect him from the mueller investigation. so, you know, i think we need to be very, very wary of what the president does in the future especially with his new attorney general in terms of who he decides to go after. >> quickly, before i let you go. what did you make of the chief justice of the court feeling a need to come out publicly and explain to the president of the united states judicial independence? >> it was a historic low for the country that we had a chief justice who remembers also conservative, so this is a completely pro constitution, proindependent judiciary that the chief justice took to sends a message to the president that he's politicizing the court in a

way that's unacceptable. >> a remark moment. thank you both so much. coming up on "morning joe" we'll talk to the lawmaker who is expected to head the judiciary committee when the new congress is sworn in. new york democrat jerrold nadler will be with us. we're back in a moment. over 100 years ago, we were talking about the model t. now here we are talking about winning the most jd power iqs and appeal awards. talking about driver-assist technology talking about cars that talk and listen. talking about the highest customer loyalty in the country. but that's enough talking. seriously.

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. we've been talking this morning about the immigration issue here at home and hillary clinton is attempting to clarify comments she made concerning european migration. in a recent interview with the guardian, she said european leaders should push for greater immigration control to deal with the rise of right-wing politics. she told the uk paper i think europe needs the to get a handle on immigration because that's what lit the flame. hillary went on to say i admire the generous and compassion approaches that were taken particularly by leaders like angela merkel but i think it's fair to say europe has done its part and must send a very clear message. we're not going to be able to continue to provide refuge and support because if we don't deal with the migration issue it will

continue to royal the body politic. after facing criticism, secretary clinton sought to clarify a series of tweets writing in part. on both sides of the atlantic we need reform. not open borders, but immigration laws enforced with fairness and respect for human rights. hillary clinton, mike, still in the middle of some of these policy debates and jumping back i don't think what she said in that tweet is radical. a lot of progressives didn't like what she said. >> i respect her career and the life she's led and things she done to advance causes of equality in the world as well as in the united states. but it's time for mrs. clinton to go home. it's time for the democratic party to move on and to a new future. >> also with her husband.

25 year run. you know, this is, as i said, i respect her. i also like hillary. every time hillary comes forward it's not good for the democrats, period. whether you like hillary or don't, that's just a branding fact that the clintons, both of them at this point and they have dedicated their service should move on to that next stage and not in anyway be politically out there. >> there's a lot of people in this country who continue to look up to hillary clinton, who continue to look to her for guidance, look to her as a northstar in some ways in the democratic party and still, frankly, a leader of the democratic party. >> absolutely. until someone emerges, barack obama is doing the post-presidential thing here and there but not full in. hillary still has space. i get what mike and donny are saying. the question is what did she

say? was she correct in what she said? why would democrats royal so much by what she said. because i think it is an appropriate recognition for both european capitals and the united states to recognize what migration and immigration flows are doing and can do and raises a substantial important question is how do you control and protect the borders. do you want to stay in the space where you allow the rhetoric of a donald trump to rule the day or do you want to get some place more sensible. >> that's it, michael. it was classic clinton. she says something then comes back and tweets something else. trying to triangulate an issue that's rupturing this country. already ruptured europe. it left for any future democratic party leader to articulate a strong and certain message on immigration, something that they have failed to do thus far. but it shouldn't be up to mrs.

clinton. >> the point being what she said i agree with. you're not recognizing in political reality if you don't get your arms around it. it's the messenger period. >> it's never a good thing if you have to clarify in several tweets what you meant in an interview because it shows there was some muddiness there. i think the democrats i talked to and these new fresh class of house democrats that are coming in, they all would likely want someone to say look we're not going to let right-wing extremists, neo-nazis or our racists determine our immigration policy here or europe. this idea of browning america or europe has put people on edge but you shouldn't say we'll have less immigrants because they make some white people uncomfortable so we have to have less of these people in our country. obviously, there needs to be comprehensive immigration policy but with hillary clinton out there giving these interviews and then having to clarify it

doesn't make her messaging look good. >> still ahead the fbi has been a frequent target of president trump. our next guest is taking an in depth look at the history of the bureau and looking at anyone who may be a subversive, including presidents. i'm 53, but in my mind i'm still 35.

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it currently airs sunday nights on show time. >> welcome. >> thank you. >> let's talk about the approach to mueller. he said he is conflicted. he worked for obama and george bush as well. what do you suspect is mueller's posture as all of this is happening now. >> to close the noose ton trump white house. >> what does that mean? >> phase one is to find out what happened in the 2016 dam pain. he has got the russia piece done. he is trying to determine which americans aided and abedded the russians in the 2016 lerks. you'll see that news closing probably within a matter of weeks. that's only phase one.

it will take time. >> one of the elements of phase one is the investigation itself. you have mueller at the center. no leaks whatsoever. it is astounding in the news gathering business the amount of things we do not know. we have no comprehension of. one of the things you hear is that everyone who has been interviewed by mueller and his people, they come back with a level of astonishment and degree of certainty they know about their movement. >> that's right. anybody that knows mueller, you known him for 35 years, knows that this guy is a pain staking by the book no bs prosecutor and investigator. he will investigate trump until the end of trump or the end of time, which ever comes first. >> you actually hung out with

him afterwards. for most of us we see four or five stills. tell us a little bit more about the blood that runs through his veins. >> this is a guy that grew up privileged, main line philadelphia, best schools, princeton, volunteered for the marines in 1967, second lieutenant in vietnam. if you know about the marines, if you order your men up the hill you go up the hill first. at the height of his game in the 1990s he quit as criminal division of the justice department to prosecute murders in d.c. >> homicide. >> yeah. of. >> asaid from a few years out to make money the guy has devoted his life to public service and when he was called upon to investigate trump and all things trump after jim comey was fired there was universal acclaim

except from one guy, the president of the united states. >> i will ask you a question. it's a narrow tactical question in one sense by also has huge potential consequences. we are going through this and trump's lawyers don't want him to do it. they is tried to get out of it by angts questions in written form. mierl is going to look at this and it's not going to be enough for him. he wants to sit in front of trump. the only recourse he has is to subpoena trump. so that's question for mueller that it seems to meerks it seems the game the trump people are playing, do tl lshhere will be legal fight. could take weeks. could take months. how much does that matter in terms of trying to bring this to the end of trump or the end of time? mueller wants to bring this to a conclusion in an orderly and

final way. so does he want to fight that battle when it's uncertain? does he want to play? is he willing to go months fighting out that thing in order to get an answer he likes potentially if. >> i can't read mueller's mind. you want to interview the president. he won't do it voluntarily. he perjure himself. he lies for pleasure. he lies for sport. it is not necessary that he do this to proceed. what i think mueller will do, again, unpredicted. and i don't have a crystal ball is to proceed as far as he can in terms of the president's criminal conduct personal, financial, corporate, political.

you write trump cannot stop the fbi new york city president ever has. it airs sunday nights on show time. thanks to much. good to see you. >> thanks. photos of children rung from tear gas featured ton front beiges of newspapers this morning as border agenerals try to deter migrants entering the u.s. this morning the president is telling mexico to ship them home or he may shut down the border. we'll discuss that next on morning show. -- morning joe. (chime)

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well, with your finances that is. we had nothing to do with that tie. voya. helping you to and through retirement. >> i know it better than anybody knows it. we are doing very well. >> my get has always been right. that's president trump's take on his upcoming meeting with china's leader. good morning. it is monday november 26th. we have donnie and mike with us.

also with us lauren leader also joining us in washington political analyst and former chairman michael steel. american authorities temporarily close the nation's busiest border crossing thousands of migrants from central american more than 100,000 people cross every day was reopened around 6:00 p.m. it came amid a day of strife. several migrants threw rocks at border agents. no injuries were reported. this is after a reporter reported witnesses fired tear gas on hundreds of migrants protesting near the border. after some attempted separating the two countries frustration boiling over processing around

100 asylum petitions a day. it is after traveling through mexico in a caravan. president trump says he has given active duty troops at the border the okay to use lethal force if they have to. >> if they have to they can use lethal force. i hope they don't have to. >> granting troops the right to use lethal force at the border. three people meeting last month evolved into a melee.

they argued against signing the declaration telling the president the move was beyond his powers the president of the national immigration enforcement crane and brandon judd, president of the border patrol union. they eventually came around to the president's position and the bitter dispute ended tuesday evening when kelly on president trump's orders signed a cabinet deck ralation granting the military disputed authority. let's start with you on this part of the conversation. what happened inside the west wing? we know when we read these stories the heros are usually the ones that talk to the publication about it. do you believe they stood up to the president when he said i want to use lethal force against

high grants trying to cross at the border? >> i don't have any reason to disbelieve it. i think there's obviously questions or operational questions it's often the case when you an affiliation with the military who understands what happens when that he kind of authority is granted. often it gets used in the heat of a moment. in this case i think the right political perspective if there will be lethal force uses it would be a disaster. how much they stood up to him one has no reason to -- i can't speculate. i don't know the answer to that

question. >> a lot of dangerous people. >> yes. >> yeah. >> it's really important that trump initiated the lethal force. >> so you have a boiling ugly situation at the border where the president has granted the authority to use lethal force. they used willingness to use tear gas against people trying to come over the border. >> it is illegal and immoral above all else. it is illegal for a reason. we have a legal structure which allows people to apply for asylum where ever and however they enter the country. the president doesn't care about that. to your point about whether or

not they stood up. they could have resigned. let these immoral acts go all the way to the courts and in some cases the president continues to question them. my only hope is that the military will have cooler heads. we have heard some from military leaders. there are also questions whether or not anyone actually threw rocks. they reported it was realtively peaceful except they were trying to breakthrough. the waits are impossible. there's no services or support for them. we could have sent agenerats mos

ago. we didn't do that. >> it comes after the president that that's new policy where asylum seekers would have to effectively wait to wait for their hearing. in many cases it takes years. >> yeah. it puts a lot of pressure on that borderline. you have a situation where it is slow rolling on the other side. the military that has been sent there is not really prepared to deal with this human influx. you know, they are used to engaging with combatants. the mexican government and u.s. government need to get into a space where they have some level

of arrangement or agreement as to how this process is going to unfold so that this does not boil up into something bigger. my concern is that the president would not be that put off if this thing did get much more heated and blew up because it would then make his point. we have to control and contain border. if you create a pressure cooker at some point what's in that pot will blow up. if it's not maintained properly. congress needs to step up and step in here to redrek the hands of the president. >> we ought not be surprised by any of this. it another long line of chaos and incompetence brought to you by the trump investigation. >> we are charged affair in

mexico city. the ambassador quit earlier this summer. we have three people i know, general mattis and kelly and dunford. the united states army would be horrendous misuse to have them firing on any civilian at any border. the president of the united states, we just heard thim say that these people when you attempt to have a conversation with them they start a fistfight. that is beyond on surd. this is the president of the united states speaking. it is the president of the united states encouraging an action that is so opposed to everything that this country stands for. we should not be shocked because it happens nearly every day. >> you know donald trump. the president thinks this looks tough. he thinks it will deter people

from coming here. it was the same argument they used that jeff sessions used for the family separation policy. it will deter people from coming here. this is what getting tough on immigration looks like. >> i love mr. tough guy that is tough on women and children. >> and he is afraid of being hurt. >> he backs down. beyond the fact the illegality of it the political stupidness of it. >> i'm not quite sure about that. >> he doubled and tripled down. >> last i looked we picked up close to 40 seats. it works with that core 38 to 39%. it does not work with the other percent. people care about their healthcare. people care about their jobs. other than this small core this

does not work. it was proven in the last category. >> do you think it works in the sense that they have a continue pd failure? >> i think the president perceives it working. i think that you're not going to -- the mid-elections, it doesn't help them at all in the broader part of the country that he needs to win it. none of that matters though because all that matters is what he thinks. i don't mean all that matters in the world but this context. i think what he is trying to do is provoke a confrontation. >> right. >> from all of us you pointed that picture and say these people are not a threat. what a lot of people saw on

television last flignight was t breach in the fence. donald trump is saying that image and a lethal con front dags, he thinks it will work for him politically. she happy to have a situation that might lead to the position of that image with a military -- a united states military -- one of the troops having to shoot someone if he can provoke one violent confrontation, looks as though they are engaging in violence. it works for him. it doesn't matter what i think. in terms of the policy he is going to pursue and kind of the manipulative and uses that it will be put forwards, while it matters what's going on in donald trump's head he thinks this will continue to work four years from now. still ahead, mixed messages

on whether migrants seeking asylum will have to remain in mexico while their cases are being decided. we'll have the latest on that but first bill has a look at the forecast. what a rough trip home sfor many. thousands of flights cancelled and delays especially in chicago and kansas city area. this is north of kansas city. blizzard and white out conditions. 16 to 17 inches of snow. kansas city picked up 5 inches of snow. let's get to the maps. 18 million people. we'll watch the snow heading for northern portions of new england. it is already a winter wonder land. one of the best early ski seasons in recent memory. here is the rain with this. rain spreading through

pennsylvania. there is the snow on the backside. still back into chicago. here is our winter impacts. snow later tonight all through northern new england. the blue is six and green is 12 inches. we'll get lakefe effect snow on the backside. 30 to 40 off of cleveland and then the rain, we have phone shl for flooding and river flooding in areas of new jersey. the timing of that rain will be right around 5 to 7:00 p.m. this chbing. we could see the best chance of travel delays. we'll leave you with this shot, a snowy kansas city. biggest snowstorm in three and a half years. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. you're in the business of helping people. we're in the business of helping you.

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there is confusion over whether to remain in mexico while they claims are being decided. mexico's interior minister told the washington post we have agreed to this policymaking it a short term solution. his cabinet official backtracked from her original statement. they tweeted migrants will not be allowed into the united states until their claims are vjly a -- individually approved in court. our very strong policy is catch and detain. no releasing into the u.s. all will stay in mexico. if for any reason it becomes necessary bewill close our southern border. no way the united states will after decades of abuse put up with this costly and dangerous situation anymore.

joining us now, so is this a policy or policy they are still discussing and negotiating? >> i think it is the latter. people have talked to and athat mexico wants quite a bit in return. this is a huge burden if they are talking about housing and finding the resources for thousands of migrants that would build up in a bottleneck on the u.s. border because it can take two years in some cases to get through the asylum process. it is what they will do to improve the economic situation in these countries that is driving these in the first place. secretary of homeland security

who is head of southern command in the military understands the poverty these people are fleeing. over and over again policies have prevailed that focus more on what they call the poll factors so thars what mexico wants them to focus on now. another thing is it something the trump administration has been working towards far long time. they si a lot of policies were geared towards not letting them come through the ports of entry. all of things they have done not to allow people to come through the ports of entry quickly. it is all to create a bottleneck where they would need to stay in

mexico. >> the president is tweeting. he goes onto how they should do it and the argument here from the president and he is not alone in this from people that support the idea of making the migrants wait. they come to the united states, get a hearing date and go off into the united states and effectively become illegal undocumented immigrants into the united states. is that a problem or do most actually show up for the hearing and go through the process? >> there are other ways to get around this. one thing is called alternatives where they would put mothers with children on ankle monitors that had to show where they were as they waited for their court

date. >> there are also cases it could be faulty. another way is to get more immigration judges. if we hire more people get through the process faster. >> it is nbc julia. thanks so much. they use the waiting days to demand closed door testimony from james comey and lynch. we'll talk to jerry nadler. morning joe is coming right back. building a better bank

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both have been asked to appear before the house judiciary committee into how law enforcement officials handle the

investigation and the trump campaign's alleged ties to russia. joining us now is democratic congressman of new york. good morning. good do have you with us. >> good morning. >> we have a lot to get through with you. let me ask you about this. twlas idea behind that and will they appear before you committee? >> comey said he is eager the appear before the committee as long as it is an open session. they have been having these so called confidential private interrogations in which they then select ifrly leak distorted versions of what occurred. he said he is willing to appear in public but he will not appear -- he will oppose this far private session. i think he is right. >> so you come january will take over likely the judiciary committee. you already made your views known. you written letters to the

acting attorney general whitaker. you say he'll be the first to appear before your committee. broadly, what would you say would be your posture to this administration different than it has been for the last two years? >> it is to be a check and balance of the administration and to hold them accountable to make sure it is in accordance with the law. the republicans who run the congress for the last two years have been totally in not doing this at all. it is always true that the oversight is a little more lax. it still has to be there. it has been totally absent. i think the president will learn he will have to face proper oversight now. we'll be looking into a lot of things they have done and they are doing opposing some of them beexposing a lot of them to

light of day. >> what is number one on the list? >> to protect the mueller investigation. so called attorney general and i say so called because his nomination was not submitted to the senate. he has the authority allegedly to oversee the investigation. we know from him whether in fact and all of what i'm about to say he must report to us. he must report to us at the end of the investigation. we'll want to know it know. have you overruled mr. mueller? have you told him he cannot pursue some line of inquiry? have you informed the administration of what ought to be secret information about a criminal investigation in which some of the people of the administration are subject and perhaps targets.

you can sabotage by telling the subject of the investigation what they are doing and what they are looking at. we want to know these questions before we get any further. >> congressman, this is not only a question for you but for congressman. obviously you have a job to do and there will be the oversielg that hasn't been there. the main general da is to basically versus pushing legislation. there is a dangerous pothole to step in there. >> there is a potentially dangerous pothole to step in there. i can only speak for the judiciary economy one agenda of oversight of hearings and what we will look into and this

family separations of the border. the refusal to defend the constitutionality of the affordable care act in court. it is a duty to the administration. they reversed against the normal policy. it is a duty of any administration and as part of that to defend the constitutionality signed by the president to -- against the constitutional challenge until they can say that no one in good faith can make any kind of legal argument. it is clearly not the case and they are working away and going the other direction. so we'll be looking -- so we have a broad oversight agenda. how do you tear children away from the arms of their mothers? how do you not have any contact information so hundreds are still separated from their

parents? we also have a broad legislative agenda. i think it's important for congress to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. we'll have an agenda on voting rights and all kinds of immigration. we'll have an agenda on protecting the right to vote, on a whole raft of issues. we'll have an anti-trust agenda we haven't had in many years. so it's a broad agenda and we'll be doing both. >> pli questimy question here, d question here. we learned the last week and threatening -- i know you were talking about bringing comey in. he is going try to use the department of justice as a way to prosecute as political

enemies. you talked about being a check and balance. what is the way in which as a practical matter this committee can safeguard against that happening? if the president is trying to use the justice department we can show that. i think the courts will stop it ultimately. we can make it a real issue. >> yeah. congressman, thanks so much for being here. i have a quick question which is impeachment. democrats have been very very wary of decembiscussing it at a. you were very very vocal about being a distinction.

i wonder what would you reaction be if it produced some evidence of criminal wrong doing by the president which you kind of put the brakes on and determined whether or not they constituted impeachable offenses. >> what i'll say is not controversial. it's one that's more different. if mueller shows us that the president has committed impeachable offenses we'll make how serious they are abdomen whether we should undertake it. if we see evidence not from

mueller the same question will arise. you to be reluctant to be -- you should be very reluctant to do it. number two did they rise to the gravity and number three because you don't want half the country to say to the other half we won the election. you stole it from us. you have to be able to think at the impeachment process. it is of off fences so grave once you laid it out a good option. you have a partisan impeachment.

thank you. up next the white house is countering migrants with the military. the latest on the situation at the border including authorization for american troops to use lethal force. keep it on morning joe. alright, i brought in ensure max protein...

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>> we are still in discussions and we are working them out. we are waiting to see what the caravan is going to do. >> is this anything which people force their way across the border they could be shot at? >> we do not have any intention. they will be apprehended. >> so if shot at they would shoot back? >> no. i think we would have to work through that. >> anybody throwing stones, rocks like they did at the

police, where they badly hurt police and soldiersov of mexico. our military fights back. we will consider it a rifle. when they throw rocks like they did at the mexico military police i say consider it a rifle. >> that was president trump and before that neilson giving their interpretation of the rules of engagement of the military at the border. joining us, tbd with tina brown. good morning to you. >> good morning. great to see you. >> also with us professor at the university of texas msnbc contributor. let me start with you. there is so much happening at the border right now. we have seen the scenes of tear gas crossing the border. we have seen migrants running from the border.

we have lethal force for united states military there at the border. also this idea floated but not yet agreed to by the mexican government of keeping migrants seeking asylum inside mexico until their get their hearing date. they come back for the hearing in the u.s. what's the implication of that last policy of keeping the migrants in mexico when i will they wait perhaps years for a hearing? >> it is problematic. you need to understand the situation in many of the border regions in mexico. there is a lot of violence, a lotover drug violence, drug cartel violence. asking folks who are seeking asylum in the united states to put them in a dangerous position where they are fleeing from a dangerous position is untenable. when we look at what mexico has been doing i think the back

story here that doesn't get told very often is that mexico has been actively deporting central americans that are trying to reach the united states. in the past months over 11,000 have been deported. these are folks trying to exercise the legal right to seek asylum in the united states. instead of focusing on trying to slow role and push them back why don't we instead be true to our from se process and even folks in mexico helping process people. at the end of the day it is a manufactured process where president trump can highlight. if effect it is from a policy per sfe perspective it is easy to find a solution. >> part of the chaos is mixed now with incompetence. when you look at the back story, part of that has to do with the

fact we have no ambassador to mexico. we have an ambassador to guatemala. the roots of this caravan, this invasion as trump calls it is rooted in our inability to focus on the root causes and the countries involved and now we are taken out of the game because we have no moral persuasion left given what we just allowed to happen. >> there's no ambassador either. he has not been confirmed. it is incredible this absolute void of dialogue in a sense in these really problematic places. one of the things i think is so critical here is they have called it a humanitarian crisis. what we are not talking about is what is this violence they are fleeing? i was talking to the novelist the other day. she said that one of her foundations, you know,

maintains -- he had his throat slit by one of these gangs. you cannot mix up these people if there is come kind of band of, you know, free loaders which is what we are getting from the trump side. she is absolutely right who was just speaking about getting them processed more fast and understanding who are the genuine asylum seekers. we have to sort them out in a legal way. i think what's stragering is how strufrp at odds. has there ever been a president who is so at odds with people he appointed hips? i mean kelly and neilson and the white house council said this was a risk to go and, you know,

allow lethal force. he doesn't care. vanity fair, we did a piece on trump at the end of the 80s. his brother said about his brother and childhood. he said donald was the one that threw cake at the birthday party. it really stuck in my mind. that's what he has been doing, throwing the cake at the birthday party. it doesn't matter whether it is a summit in canada or his own cabinet meeting. i never understand whether it is like he doesn't know anything or whether he just doesn't care. that's the major question. >> vick toria, i'm curious to a you about this whole thing. there is this specific selt of crises and policies that are being deliberated now in the notion and how it might work. there is also a new government in mexico. the question i have is a kind of

broader question. are people in that new government and mexico looking at trump right now and how the prospect for them to be able to work with them, again, it has ban lot of political turmoil in that country. wh where we are standing now as mexicans try to address their side of these crises, this kind of stacked up series and their broader set of dealing with donald trump. >> it has ban roller coaster. we saw when incoming president was come paining. they were both going at each other. he took a very tough stance towards president trump. once he won the election he took a more conciliatory note and said i am going to work with the u.s. and going to work with trump. there were positive overtones. there were talks that wering e ongoing between those countries. from the president's tweets in the past 48 hours i think all of

that good will that had been transpiring has gone away. in addition to that the mexican folks are frustrated. we see border residents on the u.s. side feeling frustrated by the chaos. in terms of trying to find a solution the new president to mexico is in a tough spot sbauz he asserted he wants to respect the human rights of migrants, that that's a top priority for them. at the same time he has the pressures of these folks in his country. >> a really question quick. you have a really experience. i get asked this all of the time, is there anything you saw in the pa, in the '80s and '90s that would lead you to believe this is who he is? >> well, in the beginning in 1987 at the art of the deal, his book, i thought he was enjoyable. he amused me.

i thought he was really fun. i wrote in my diaries about -- >> all right. seven second delay. >> sorry about that, but i'm only quoting. then as time went by, it darkened. we did a piece that made him really crazy, reported that he had -- during his bankruptcy time, she described how he hit the speeches on the desk. he retaliated by throwing wine down her back at a dinner party. that's when i really saw the aggressive personality. >> many layers of color to our conversation, tina, thank you. coming up next, last year's small business owners generated billions of dollars thanks to shoppers who turned out on the saturday after thanksgiving. how did small business saturday

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business, which is the second longest running show in the history of msn after only hard ball. it is founded by american express. hey, good to see you. a big number. >> nearly $18 billion spent at small businesses which is big and a record. >> what's the idea behind the holiday? people seem to have taken this up. >> and a cause. what it is really meant to do is just bring awareness. that if you do not go to small businesses, they'll disappear. so you get it of course but this puts it front of mind that, hey that toy store on your main street is going to be gone if you don't shop there. >> people see a big box store come in down the block and the little store go away.

what is the threat to small businesses? >> online shopping from the big guys, right. it did so well this year, because the economy's doing well, right? so we all lived through 2008, 2009. really what they need is the economy to do well and then people to go shop at them and realize you can get something special at small businesses. >> to me, i see this a lot with small business, it's not as much a big box as it is the online. for any, how does a small retailer, small toy store where you can get anything online, for cheaper, how do they compete? >> it's experiences, right. so we've gone around main streets around the united states. we were just in deloitte,

wisconsin. you have to want to go there for other things. right, it's super easy to go on amazon and buy this toy. you have to have some connection. >> used to wander the aisles at walmart. >> toys "r" us, i put them out of business by wandering their aisles. it's toys "r" us, companies like this, where amazon has effectively put them out of business. >> part of it has to do with our culture. it's really important if you stop and think about what the word downtown used to mean. used to mean book store, local drugstore, local hardware store. going back to that revisitalizes not only the stories in downtown but revitalizes what we used to be and ought to still be but we're not.

>> some downtowns, they have survived. that's because there's one person or one organization, a main street organization, taking this on as a cause. gotten all the retailers to work together. >> you can park there. you don't have to park 8,000 miles away in the mall parking lot -- >> here comes the old man. >> i don't go to malls. >> i'm thinking about uptown and skid row. i wouldn't want to see you in any downtown. >> good point. but we digress. >> it's late in the morning. so black friday, cyber monday, all this stuff going on. as we head into the christmas season, we've got these weird tremors in the economy and people are starting to talk about a slowdown, a recession.

>> consumer confidence is still high. >> so expecting a huge holiday season. >> they do. small business optimism is high. it's in congress, what's going on on main street. >> the policy -- >> put it in right at the end. >> exactly. the policies of this administration, the dow is high, consumer confidence all those things, all good for small business? >> small business optimism is up, right, for many of those reasons. there are things making it uncertain. the tar riches caused great uncertainty for a lot of mixed businesses. >> that include charles grodin? >> yeah, quick run. we apologize for everything. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage. >> thanks, willie.

i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover starting with a border battle. hundreds of migrants attempt to forcefully enter the u.s. officials use tear gas to break up the cloud. leading to a partial closure of the southern border. >> i've already shut down parts of the border because it was out of control with the riots on the other side in mexico. >> an eye opening report from the government buried on a holiday weekend describes the dynamic crisis and climate change, arguing that inaction could set the u.s. back for decades. >> participate in a longtime discussion about the magnitude of the challenge. >> the race could not be the higher. president trump slated to hold two rallies as the republican is taking the idea of