money when things get tough, that's the treasury side of things. they get out of stocks. that's what you're seeing play out right now. >> cnbc's dominic chu. thank you very much, sir. appreciate it. >> got it. >> that wraps up the hour for me. look for me on social media and catch kasie d.c. sunday nights at 7:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. thank you for watching. "deadline white house with nicolle wallace" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the new york. three, two, one. cue a presidential meltdown. the likes of which we haven't seen since yesterday morning. that's because any minute now, robert mueller will file a critical new report on the year-long cooperation agreement between michael flynn, the president's former national security adviser, and the feds he's been working for since pleading guilty to lying to the fbi about his conversations with russian ambassador sergey kisly kislyak. that imminent report could explain why president trump has

taken his attacks on the mueller investigation to a new level that may cross the line into obstruction of justice and witness tampering. and it could hit the trump white house where it hurts. at the intersection of mueller's obstruction and collusion cases. on the heels of michael cohen's guilty plea, which revealed a devastating trove of evidence in mueller's possession already, flynn's cooperation may reveal the answers to some of the questions that have been central to the russia investigation since it started. including several questions mueller crafted for trump to answer after flynn started cooperating with the probe. questions for the president like what did you know about phone calls that flynn made with the russian ambassador, sergey kisly kislyak, in late december 2016? the ones flynn lied about to the fbi. how was the decision made to fire michael flynn? and this one, what efforts were made to reach out to flynn about seeking immunity or a possible pardon? we may also finally learn answers to some known unknowns, like what else michael flynn may

have witnessed in the nine months he served as the senior trump campaign adviser. it's worth noting the timing of all this. mueller repeatedly requested delays in flynn's sentencing. that was until he received testimony from trump on some of those key flashpoints. now, trump has reportedly answered questions on the trump tower meeting, owen hn business dealings in russia, on communications about wikileaks and a pro-russia platform change at the 2016 republican convention. today, we may learn how his answers hold up against flynn's given during a year as a cooperating witness. here to help us look ahead to the next big milestone in the mueller investigation, some of our favorite reporters and friends. white house bureau chief from the "washington post," phil rucker. former u.s. attorney joyce vance. matt miller, former chief spokesman at the department of justice. ken dilanian, nbc news intelligence and national security reporter. phil, i need to start with you, though, on the markets. one of the president's favorite things to brag about, to tweet about, is how healthy the market

is. today, not a day worth bragging about for this braggadocios president. >> no, not at all, nicolle. we see markets reacting to the supposed deal with china reached over the weekend at the g-20 in argentina. president trump called it an incredible deal and boasted of an agreement to suspend temporarily his trade war with china. the reality, it seems to be much more more hazy than that and see the markets reacting. i talked to an economic analyst a few hours ago who said, look, markets demand certainty and certainty is not at all what this president or administration provide when it comes to the economy because the president will make different sorts of announcements. he'll have to have that walked back by some of his advisers sometimes and it's just very unclear exactly where everything stands. remember, two days ago, he said we've got this incredible deal with china, and then this morning, he said, remember, i am a tariff man. he tweeted that on twitter. that is not what the markets

wanted to hear. >> phil rucker, is there any sense from the trip last week that even though the president seemingly on his better behavior, i won't call it best, that all of the noise around his penchant for lying and the fact that he surrounds himself with liars, makes him -- makes it harder for him to stabilize shaky markets when that's. wh what he encounters. >> certainly, nicolle. it's also the probable that he's not always clear when he communicates about the economy or about his economic policies. he gets basic things wrong. he can be imprecise, if that's the way you want to describe it, at best. and it's not helpful to the markets that are looking for some certainty, looking for some clarity. it they're worried about -- investors are worried about the possibility of a recession around the corner. they've been very agitated by the trade war, by the moves that trump has made in the last several months and they're looking for some reason to be assured and the president one

day will provide that reason and then the next day will give a whole fresh reason to be jittery again, and it's a difficult cycle l for investors to navigate. it's also, frankly, a difficult cycle for people in the administration, for the president's own aides and advisers to navigate. >> phil rucker, you used the word, agitated, so we'll make this term with you to an agitated president, a clearly agitated president when it comes to the mueller probe. and any moment now, the mueller investigation could file a sentencing report for mike flynn. the president started the week with some of his most vicious and overheated attacks on the mueller probe. attacks that many people including kellyanne conway's own husband think cross the line into witness tampering and obstruction of justice. any reporting for this afternoon about how they're preparing for this latest mueller move? >> well, nicolle, i think the white house is just waiting for this report to be filed. we're not sure how much detail is going to be in there from the special counsel, but we're expecting to get a window into

the extent of flynn's cooperation. for example, did flynn have any conversations with the president pertaining to his discussions with the russian ambassador, to his discussions about administration policy, future administration policy, on sanctions? we're not really sure, but that's one of the many topics that we think, we hope, could be discussed in that report when it's filed, perhaps later today. and i think the white house is waiting -- waiting to see that and waiting to see the reaction and the president, i'm sure, will let us all know in due time what he thinks about it all. >> matt miller, we've spent the recent days talking about michael cohen, his guilty plea last thursday that was a surprise to all of us, obviously something that mueller's team was working on days, perhaps weeks in advance. that revealed something donald trump wanted if russia. donald trump wanted to build trump tower moscow. michael cohen was working on that into the general election campaign in 2016. will we, perhaps, learn

something about why michael l flynn lied about conversations with russian ambassador sergey kislyak ostensibly about the lifting of sanctions? >> we very well might. i think what we'll see from this agreement is obviously we'll see kind of a description of the significance of this cooperation. the extent of its cooperation. we'll see some description of the crimes. i think the question of how much detail we'll see about the involvement of others. whether mueller makes that public in this report or whether he holds it off for a future indictment or a future guilty plea or holds it off because it's still a very live part of his investigation. and i think it's such a critical question because flynn really is at the central of kind of both threads of the mueller investigation. both the collusion side and the obstruction side. on the collusion side as you said, it wasn't just his phone calls to sergey kislyak where day talked about sanctions which of course in the quid pro quo that's what russia wanted from the incoming trump administration. they wanted eventually for sanctions to be dropped, but also remember, he had that meeting with jared kushner and ambassador kislyak where they

discussed setting up this back channel where jared kushner, someone else in the trump transition would have a private communication with the kremlin. he's also key to the obstruction case because not only was he one of the first people, himself, to obstruct justice by trying to -- by lying to investigators, but there's this question about when the president knew that flynn lied to the fbi. and did he know that flynn had committed a crime when he asked jim comey on february 14th of last year to back off the investigation and go easy on flynn? we may find out all that today, we may find out some of it or it may be held for a later date. i think we just don't know the answers yet. >> joyce, let me read you something "the new york times" reported over the weekend. if the special counsel robert s. mueller has proved anything in his 18-month-long investigation decides how intensely russia meddled in an american presidential election, it is that mr. trump surrounded himself throughout '16 and '17, people to whom lying seemed to be second nature. they lied to federal authorities even when they had lawyers

advising them, even when the risk of getting caught was high and even when the consequences for them were dire." why would -- we made a little list here, these are all the people that lied about russia that we could think of before we came on the air. george papadopoulos, right? lied about the russian hacks. jeff sessions lied to congress, made false statements about russian contacts. mike flynn lied about conversations with the russian ambassador. and michael cohen pleaded guilty on friday to lying about russian business dealings with officials in putin's government. why as a prosecutor would you surmise that all these people close to donald trump would lie about the very same foreign adversary? >> it's really an amazing coincidence, i guess, nicolle. if it's not an amazing coincidence, though, it is a hallmark of criminal activity to have so many people in what appears in some cases to be a coordinated fashion lying about something that if the truth were told would expose them to criminal liability. it's not like they're lying about contacts with belgium,

which might be wrong, but would maybe not be as damage as lying about contacts with russia, a country that we've had as a j geopolitical foe for decades at this point. the bottom line here is that there were too many forces in play and russia was in the center of them. there was the threat about interference with the election. there was the thread about the building of trump tower moscow and the fact that that was ongoing and it was not disclosed to voters. perhaps those two threads will even converge and we'll find that there was some sort solof quid pro quo going on. there's this systemic sustained pattern of lying by people who were close to trump during the campaign, people like jeff sessions who you wouldn't expect to see lying about contacts with russia. people like the national security adviser michael flynn lying about conversations with the russian ambassador. mueller has got to be focused on this because for this many people to be lying about the same subject is sort of like planting a red flag in the ground and saying, look here,

this is where the crime is. >> ken dilanian, where do you think the mueller probe places all of these lies about rush that do you think they're at the center of trying to suss out whether or not there was a conspiracy or do you think they're viewed in isolation as separate obstruction and false statement charges? >> no, i think as joyce said, any reasonable prosecutor would view this pattern of conduct as evidence of a conspiracy. the question is, what other evidence backs that up? in terms of this document that's going to be filed today, this is a document that's designed to eninstruen instru instruct the judge about what kind of sentence mike flynn should get. it stands to reason to me it has to at least describe the nature of his lies, about his conversations with the russian ambassador including the context. including who instructed him, if anyone, wto do that, who he discussed it with. it may hold up to scrutiny donald trump's story. his lawyer said donald trump didn't answer questions to robert mueller about what happened after he took office. he's on record saying he did not instruct mike flynn to go talk to the russian ambassador, although he also said it

wouldn't have been a problem if he did it. >> right. i have it here. "it's a shame because it's actions during the transition were lawful, there was nothing to hide." but it brings you back to the same question. then why lie? >> exactly. and so i think we're going to learn why lie today in this filing, and we're going to see whether the president's story stands up. >> just give everyone a little reminder, mike flynn, i think of mike flynn when he worked for stan mcchrystal. he was -- he had an admirable military career. >> that's right. >> he then became particularly agitated i think during the balm. ma ye obama years over foreign policy questions, adopted some radical foreign policy views and led the "lock her up" chants at trump's convention. for a while, and i remember he appeared on "morning joe," he was rumored to be a candidate for the vice president's slot. >> right, imagine that. >> he was as high up as you could get on sort of a swash m swash buckling presidential campaign. if the president wanted something from russia, if the president called in a play when

it came to russia, mike flynn would have been in on it. >> one would presume so. in fact, mike flynn was a guy who was essentially fired by the obama administration and started to talk around town that the reason he was fired is because he was talking too starkly about radical islam which wasn't true but he sort of became radicalized in the trump campaign and rose up the ranks and absolutely, he would a guy -- and by the way, barack obama warned donald trump on at least one occasion not to hire -- >> so did chris christie. >> absolutely. he was the guy that trump outsourced many of his foreign policy, foreign contacts to, during the campaign. so if there was a russia conspiracy, one can presume that flynn was aware of it. >> matt miller, mike flynn was reportedly on the phone with the russians on the day of the inauguration. you and i both worked in incoming administrations, and there wasn't anything other than press calls that i dealt with on the day of the inauguration that was so urgent. what could have been so urgent that mike flynn was on the phone with sergey kislyak on the day of the inauguration? >> that's a great question, and you would assume it probably was

a follow-up for some of the conversations he had had previously. remember, they were having a number of conversations. it wasn't just this conversation he had with sergey kislyak about lifting -- about sanctions and whether russia would retaliate. he also had a conversation with sergey kislyak about whether russia would veto or vote against a resolution related to israel in the u.n. so they were having these back-channel conversations all through the transition with the russian ambassador and i think it's important to state, you know, we talk about what the crimes might be here and whether this relates to a quid pro quo that, you know, the russians would interfere in the election and trump would reward them with the sanctions or the russians would, you know, approve a development deal in russia, trump would reward them with lifting sanctions. we talk about what the criminal acts might be but there's also -- that's kind of a very low standard to which to hold the president of the united states. there's also this question of proprie propriety, what's proper. and we do have one president at the time, it was completely improper by -- whether it was criminal or not, i don't think

we know the answer to yet. it was completely proper for the trump transition team it be trying to conduct foreign policy on behalf of the united states while barack obama was still president. >> phil rucker, i want to ask you about some questions around the obstruction side of the mueller probe, and about a house divided. the house of kellyanne and george conway. the president's son last night tweeted something, my jaw doesn't drop very often on twitter but eric trump, the president's son, tweeted this last night. "of all the ugliness in politics, the disrespect george conway shows toward his wife, her career, place of work, everything she worked so hard to achieve, might top them on. kellyanne is a great person and frankly his actions are horrible." then i read that and i have insomnia, this might explain this. i went and looked at george conway's twitter feed and he retweeted every person, every person i saw, that went on to attack donald trump for his infidelities, donald trump for all manner of things. so this is a hot war between the

president's son, eric trump, and kellyanne conway's husband, george conway, over the question of whether or not with the president's tweets yesterday morning, where he praised one witness in the mueller probe, roger stone, for refusing to testify against the president, george conway thought that amounted to, could have amounted to witness tampering and obstruction of justice. what's the fallout today? >> well, it's an interesting question. i, frankly, was surprised to see eric trump weigh in on this. of course, the tweets of george conway have been a subject of fascination in washington for many months now, and his differences with his wife, kellyanne, over donald trump -- president trump and his actions in office are not exactly new. but it is new for a member of the president's family to weigh in and to get into the middle of this. i think it's worth keeping in mind, nicolle, that a lot of george conway's criticisms of president trump fall squarely in the category of, like, rule of law. >> yeah. >> which is what george conway specializes in.

he's a lawyer. >> right. >> he was actually one of the republican lawyers who in the late 9s late '90s was doing a lot of work against president clinton, very much of a partisan. his criticisms are coming at it from that perspective. he's not criticizing regularly the president's sort of morality and behavior. it has much more to do with the law. >> so we've got someone who's expert in that. joyce vance, what george conway tweeted, he named two -- he named two statutes. the u.s. statutes for witness tampering and obstruction of justice. this is what got this feud rolling with eric trump and george conway. can you answer the question that he sort of proffers that the president by tweeting out -- retweeting roger stone, saying, "i will never testify against trump. this statement was reechcently e by roger stone saying he won't be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up

lies and stories about president trump. nice to know some people still have guts." how does this amount to witness tampering? this is the president of the united states that sits atop the executive branch of government and the justice department. making a comment about how a witness should conduct himself in a federal probe into russian interference in the 2016 election. how is that not witness tampering? >> it really looks like witness tampering. you know, the difficult question when you bring these cases as a prosecutor is always how are you going to prove the intent of the person who engaged in h the conduct that looks a lot like witness tampering? you have to show that they had a corrupt motivmotive, that they actually intended to encourage that witness to lie, or somehow make that witness unavailable for prosecutors. and so that's the difficulty. here you got the president making tweets that are public record that are official statements of this presidency, and it's also a little bit unique because this is the man who singularly holds the power of the pardon. he's the one guy who's got the

magic wand that he can wave that could make all of these witnesses' problems go i a wawa they stay loyal and side with trump. so it looks a lot like the conduct prosecutors are used to seeing from mob bosses or folks at the head of drug trafficking organizations, trying to make the witnesses against them disappear. what's so strange is that trump, like everything else he does, appears to be engaging in witness intimidation in plain sight. >> go ahead. >> paul manafort pleaded guilty to witness tampering on conduct that was arguably less egregious than we saw from the president. >> far less. >> he was saying this was my story, i just want you to make sure -- >> i want you to know it. that's a great point. let me ask you, you, too, joyce, i mean, is that a credible defense? i mean, this is what the president's legal team who -- say he doesn't in public, it can't be criminal. >> i don't think so. >> we'll see, right? joyce, is that a viable defense? >> look, i don't think that it works. this at the end of the day is going to be up to folks who sit in it the supreme court

building, i suspect. >> wow. >> because whether or not you can engage in witness intimidation via twitter is something of a question of first impression. just because you make a threat in public doesn't make it any less a threat. >> joyce vance, we're so lucky to have you. thanks for spending some time with us. >> thanks. after the break, donald trump finds himself isolated today after a bipartisan group of senators came out swinging at the president's closest ally in the middle east. one believed to be responsible for the brutal murder of a "washington post" columnist and u.s. resident. we'll bring you that story. also ahead, another day, another connection between a trump senior campaign official and the founder of wikileaks, julian assange. and honoring a president from another time, as the tributes pour in from around the world for the 41st president, we'll show you some of the moving scenes from the u.s. capitol. stay with us. ♪ ♪ applebee's bigger bolder grill combos are back.

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there were fireworks on capitol hill today, as cia director jigina haspel briefed bipartisan group of senators on the role that the crown prince of saudi arabia is believed by the cia to have played in the brutal murder of jamal khashoggi. the u.s. resident and "washington post" columnist. haspel is the only senior trump official believed to have listened to the audio recording of the grisly murder. the cia concluded that mbs, leader of saudi arabia, is responsible for the killing. an assessment made cautiously and based on multiple streams of intelligence. despite that conclusion from the cia, the president doesn't believe it. this afternoon, it would appear the cia has the senators briefed today squarely in its corner. >> mbs, the crown prince, is a

wrecking ball, i think he's complicit in the murder of mr. khashoggi to the highest level possible. there's not a smoking gun. there's a smoking saw. you have to be willfully blind not to come to the conclusion that this was orchestrated and organized by people under the command of mbs and that he was intricately involved in the demise of mr. khashoggi. >> i have zero question in my mind that the crown prince, mbs, ordered the killing, monitoring the killing, knew exactly what was happening. planned it in advance. if he was in front of a jury, he would be convicted in 30 minutes, guilty. >> senator corker right there as well as senators durbin and schumer are now calling for haspel to brief the entire senate. joining our conversation, charlie sykes, contributing editor at the weekly standard. and karine jean pierre at

move-on.org. i have to start with you. this is a rebuke of the president by, in lindsey graham's case, his closest ally in the united states senate, and bob corker who sort of tried to still toe an american line, not a trumpian line when it comes to foreign policy. >> yes, there's a rather dramatic credibility gap with what the president said about this evidence, what secretary mattis said about this evidence and secretary pompeo. at some point, you have to ask did you see the same intelligence? why did you characterize it the way you did? it wasn't that long ago you had the secretary -- the president of the united states, secretary of defense, and the secretary of state, essentially saying there was no direct reporting and now you have the cia director going in there and i don't think that bob corker, lindsey graham, could have been clearer in what they believe they heard. >> well, so you're saying it's also a rebuke of pompeo. >> yes. >> who put his credibility on the line and of mattis who walked out of the briefing with senator and said there's no smoking gun.

lindsey graham right there saying it's a smoking bone saw. >> we've seen in the past the willingness of members of the administration to surrender contribute to stay in the president's good graces. are they willing to do it on this particular case? i don't know whether they figured that the cia director would have been so direct about it, but this is a real problem for secretary mattis. i thing it's a real problem for secretary pompeo. and i think that democrats when they, you know, come in in january, you know, ought to get them in under oath and try to sort out what the credibility issues are here. >> i was told on the day that all of this sort of unfolded by two former senior intelligence officials, work at the highest levels of america's national security agencies, for democratic and republican presidents, that this was above all else an intelligence scandal in the making. that this was a scandal where the intelligence community made an informed assessment with really good screams of intel, and part of the world that they know pretty well. and the white house rejected it

for political purposes. do you think democrats are ready to do what charlie just suggested? >> absolutely. i think they're going to have some oversight and they're going to ask pompeo and mattis to come before them and really answer those questions as to what is going on and why did they not follow the intelligence -- why didn't they even listen to the tape even? at least it seems as if they didn't. this attack on the intelligence committee led by donald trump is not only going to be dangerous for donald trump, it's going to be dangerous for our country because what he's doing is embracing the dictators, autocrats. people who are our adversaries, and continue to shun our allies. it's just going to put us in danger. to me, that's the scary part of it all. >> we've gotten used to the fact that the president lies all the time. >> right. >> we had conversations throughout last year saying there will come a time when it's about something really, really important. >> right. >> then lack of credibility to this administration will come back to bite them. i think we're at that moment. we saw that with the china trade issue, with the meltdown in the

stock market. the problems with credibility. now we're seeing in this intelligence scandal. >> pompeo was a cia director, himself. >> it right. >> so, yeah, this is -- >> bad blood here. >> explained by this fact, there are no smoking guns in intelligence. as mike hayden used to say, if it was a fact, it wouldn't be intelligence. the fact that pompeo and mattis used that locution was really disingenuous, right? >> trumpian. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> there are intercepts that show khashoggi speaking to the leader of the plot, according to reporting, that essentially gave those senators very high assurance that he was involved and the cia assessed with a strong level of confidence based on a mosaic of circumstantial evidence and somehow these defense and state leaders decided to spin that for political purposes. >> is and undunder oath, they w to answer the question who told you to offer that explanation? >> exactly. >> the president can exert executive privilege. his cabinet cannot. i was reminded this isn't the first time the president has chosen to trust whatever he calls it, his big, huge, giant

brain, whatever, over the collective analysis of the intelligence community. the first time was russia. >> yeah, exactly. and as with russia, we have to ask what his motivations are here. is it because he has financial interests in saudi arabia? is it because he likes the way they flattered him on his trips over there? the relationship between his son-in-law jared kushner and the crown prince mbs? we don't really know. there are two issues. one is the foreign policy response to what happened. the president is the one who gets to decide to make that response. congress can come to a different conclusion, try to pass a law if you want. i think you're going to see them do that in the coming weeks and months. the second issue, which we're getting to, is the politicization of intelligence. the intelligence community, it's not their job to come up with policy. it's their job to look at the intelligence, make assessments and make recommendations, present those recommendations to the policymakers. the troubling thing here, you see people in the administration from the president on down rejecting and downplaying and it seems last week misleading congress about the outcome of

that intelligence assessment. that is an enormous scandal in the making. >> phil rucker, the moment when donald trump said publicly exactly what the saudis still had the -- i don't know what you call it, maybe conniving sensibilities to do privately, the minute the president of the united states said, oh, oh, maybe it was rogue killers, something the saudis didn't have the audacity to say publicly at the moment that donald trump did, suggests that there's no one left in the white house with any sort of commitment to american national security. i would put john bolton in that category. i would put general kelly in that category. kellyanne conway seems to have her hands full. there's no one there that can say to the president, maybe you shouldn't say, mr. president, what the saudis are saying. maybe you should listen to some of what your own intelligence community is saying. >> well, what you have, nicolle, is a president who calls his own shots and comes up with his own beliefs, his own statements, his

own positions, sort of in his own little world. and on the case of khashoggi, he throughout this process, and it's been more than a month now, he has been so equivocal. he's been taking the word of the crown prince, mbs, in private conversations with the president, taking his word over the conclusions of the intelligence community which is really striking. i interviewed president trump last week and we talked about this very thing and he said, as he has said numerous times, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but is unwilling to sort of come down one way or the other on whether he believes the intelligence community's findings over the denials, the personal denials, of the crown prince, and those are two very different sets of information. i mean, one is a leader with an incentive to lie and the other is the u.s. intelligence community. >> phil rucker makes such an important point. maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. it's the same point matt was making. it's exactly what he said about russia, maybe they did it, maybe it was a 400-pound guy in his basement, ken dilanian.

how does the intelligence community, if they wanted to sort of sound a whistle, where do they go? >> look, this was always going to be a problem to finesse. the intelligence community is used to presidents ignoring their assessments or acting in a different way than the intelligence would lead. he didn't even say the right things here and he sort of downplayed the intelligence in a way i think is really dispirting, where they're going to go is congress. the democrats are in charge of the house. they have a forum now to speak even if it iappears under dures. >> i've been to this movie. i know how it ends. the story will come out, the truth emerges. matt miller, phil rucker, ken dilanian, thank you for spending so much time with us. coming up, the president's former campaign chairman and julian assange. more dots connected. stay with us. george woke up in pain. but he has plans today.

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we are keeping an eye on the capitol rotunda today where george h.w. bush currently lies in state. one of the most moving scenes of the day, bob dole, also a

veteran of world war ii who ran against bush for the gop nomination twice stood up from his wheelchair to salute. bush who led the cia in the 1970s was visited by the agency's current director gina haspel, by friend john brennan and i believe george tenant who led the cia during president 41's son's presidency there was as well. that's him right next to director brennan. sully, the service dog, also visited his old partner alongside people who benefitted from the americans with disabilities act. a bill passed under the 41st president. and just a few moments ago, donald trump showed up at the famous blair house where the bushes are staying ahead of tomorrow's funeral. trump and melania will both attend that tomorrow. here at the table, let's add doug thornell to the conversation, a former senior adviser to the dnc, and michelle goldberg, columnist for "the new york times." without pointing out the contrast between the time in which the 41st president was president and the times in which

we live now, it does seem to be a contrast that gets under this president's skin. >> it's remarkable that it was headline news that he was invited to this funeral in the first place. usually that would go without saying. so i understand that, you know, for their own reasons, george h.w. bush's family is kind of approaching this in a very different way than john mccain and his family approached the funeral. it's not staged as a rebuke of trump or a celebration of the values that trump has undermined. something of the character of the president, any invocation of patriotism and decency seems like an implicit dig at the president. >> it's also that which is normal. i mean, i think that what everyone is grappling with, and everyone is being careful, everyone's struggling to find the words, is that, you know, 41 would be the first to tell you he was not a perfect president, was not a perfect man.

he revered traditions as did his son who would probably describe himself as far less perfect than his father. i think what comes into sharp relief is just how abnormal the times are in which we're living. >> yeah, and i think the way that george h.w. bush and his family handled the funeral is a reminder to the country about, to your point, about, you know, the way things should be. like, there's a normalcy that we're missing. and i think, you know, the fact that he did invite trump to sort of make it so there was no drama over this -- >> it was normal. >> it was normal. >> a president died and -- >> i don't want to -- i'm not criticizing how mccain's family did it. >> right. >> but i do think -- >> he was a senator. it was different. >> exactly. before no drama obama, there was george h.w. bush. you didn't see a lot of drama in his administration. you can agree with him or disagree with him on a lot of his political decisions but the way in which he's conducting -- his family has conducted these last few days is a testament to how he, you know, he conducted his life.

no drama. inviting everyone in. real professionalism. >> right. >> he's a real statesman. think that's -- this funeral shows that. >> and the relationships that the bushes have with the clintons and the obamas speak to that. and i don't think anyone in the bush family would ever use words to describe their conduct in office or out of office, but george w. bush for his part made a point to never criticize his successor. he never said one word about the obama presidency. george h.w. bush did the same for president bill clinton. and the friendship that endures is sort of the proof in the pudding. this moment, this -- it feels fraught because donald trump, you know, it also -- it reveals how low the bar is. donald trump hasn't said anything obnoxious about the 41st president and we're all calling him -- i haven't -- some are calling him presidential for a minute. >> i was just thinking about the same thing. it's like we grade him on such a curve. >> right. >> because the thing is, this is just common decency. >> he did a couple months ago.

>> that was the last thing he attacked george h.w. bush on. this is just common decency. this is what presidents do. but yet because it's coming from trump, it's breaking news and it shouldn't be. this is the times that we're living in. it's so abnormal. here's what we're seeing. we're seeing george h.w. bush who's putting country above himself. and that is what we -- that's the place we should be, but we're just not. and that's a lesson that donald trump should take. >> but he won't. >> he won't. >> the contrast is so unmistakable. it doesn't need to be emphasized. >> correct. >> it's just the way these two men have lived their lives, their approach, you know, the grace of george h.w. bush, honor, the courage. what it meant to be a great american patriot. david french had a great piece saying, you know, one of the strange things about modern conservatism is the way it equates donald trump with manliness and masculine virtues and they regarded, you know, the bushes as somehow less manly and, like, compared the two of them. you know, how they served their country.

what genuine courage, what genuine service, george h.w. bush, you know, gave to his country as opposed to donald trump. and in so many ways, what trump represents has been this repudiation of all of the values -- >> civility. >> of all of the values -- >> compromise. >> exactly. of all of those things. and so when you have a moment like this, little bit like the mccain funeral, you do get the chance to sit back and go, okay, there is an all teternative his, an earth 2.0 where we honor men like this, where we have a different view of what leadership and strength actually look like. and whatever anybody says at this funeral, that contrast is going to be very, very stark over the next few days. all right. a new report in "the new york times" that could be of interest to robert mueller. we'll bring it to you next. george woke up in pain.

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mueller's investigation seems to center on the wikileaks dump of hacked dnc e-mails and who may or may not have had a hand in that or advance knowledge that it was coming. where do the intersections lie between wikileaks and the trump orbit? that may be why this scoop in "the new york times" is so interesting. paul manafort, trump's former campaign chairman, who was in ecuador to discuss a new financial opportunity days before robert mueller was appointed, reportedly discussed a deal with ecuador's incoming president that would send julian assange back to the united states. from that piece, "if qu"in at l two meetings with mr. manafort incoming president marino and aides discussed to rid themselves of mr. assange holed up in the ecuadorian embassy in london since 2012, in exchange for concessions like debt relief from the u.s. according to three people familiar with the talks." manafort's spokesman told nbc news manafort didn't bring it up, he merely listened and made

no promises and no information that trump knew about it, but it raises questions of whether or not there was a quid pro quo. political reporter ken vogel, the great piece of reporting in "the new york times," joins us now. it's a fascinating additional dot, ken, between trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort, and julian assange, who as your colleagues and others have described as sort of the beating heart of the mueller collusion probe. >> yeah, that's right, and as you suggested there, his people say that this wasn't something that he went down there to pursue. rather it was something that came up in the context of conversations about other business opportunities actually, him potentially being a broker of a chinese investment in ecuador, but if nothing else, what this does, nicolle, is further highlight the ways in which manafort's efforts to act as a broker or liaison between the united states government and particularly the trump administration, and various other foreign actors, have kind

of put him, again, in the center of these questions that are key questions in the mueller probe. and you don't have to look a whole lot further than the fact that roger stone, his longtime associate, manafort's longtime associate and former business partner is -- emerges as sort of a key linchpin in this inquiry about wikileaks and wikileaks collusion or cooperation or coordination with the campaign to see how manafort would be an interesting player here and why he continues to attract so much attention. >> ken, you've covered so many of these tentacles of the mueller probe and so many of these colorful characters. is manafort one of those guys who when someone like you and your colleagues turns over the rock, there's just so much bad conduct underneath it? i mean, is it just a coincidence that on top of doing -- being the washington concigliory, he was again another contact with julian assange?

>> what's so remarkable about this, as you alluded to there, manafort has been doing this for decades but the fact that mueller had -- that he had already come into the, you know, the center of the attention of various investigators and would soon become a centerpiece in the mueller probe, and yet he was still doing this very same activity of the sort that ended up landing him in jail is, you know, shows a certain amount of chutzpah that is difficult to overlook. and you -- and you can easily see how someone who would behave like that would even after he has pled guilty and is cooperating with investigators think that maybe there was some angle for him to play where he could potentially be working both mueller's team and trump. >> yeah. >> and possible anticipation of a pardon. that's the type of sort of a brazenness that it would take to have a long career like this where you continue to put yourself in situations where you're working for, you know, sort of unsavory characters, at

least at the fringes of american foreign policy interests. >> one man's chutzpa is another man's jail sentence. ken, we glossed over this. go over the timing. i went back and read your piece and read your piece i second and third time. the timing of paul manafort's willingness to do a deal that perhaps would return assange to the united states was fascinating. >> yes, this was may of 2017 and it is after the incoming president of ecuador had been elected but before he takes office. so there's this period where ecuador is sort of transitioning from a former president who had as part of his persona antagonism of the united states and to return over relief to a president who wants to have a better relationship with the united states. obviously president trump being the president of the united states, paul manafort continuing to cast himself who has sway

with the president even as investigators are ramping up their scrutiny of him and as you suggested, the last meeting he had in ecuador was, according to our time line, two days before mueller was appointed as special counsel and would begin digging deeply into manafort's unregistered foreign lobbying for other countries. >> if mueller doesn't get him on collusion, it sounds like in addition to the seven things being convicted of, you can get him on pay to play. you made an hilarious statement before. >> just that julian assange made a bad bet. >> on trump? >> he thought he would not only get pardoned but become a ambassador. there's really no honor amongst thieves. he really thought he was doing this favor for the trump people and he would get something out of it. i spoke to randy credico, one of roger stone's associates who's

part of this probe, who is a left wing voter and big supporter of assange and always justified assange's behavior by saying, look, hillary clinton said there could be a drone strike against assange. this was sort of self-defense. and it turns out that kind of betting your future on the honor of donald trump -- >> no win there. we have breaking news in the russian investigation, roger stone is pleading the fifth, refusing to share documents and senate with the committee. that's according to the top democrat dianne feinstein. i will put you on the spot and apologize in advance and do it anyway, we had the president yesterday morning at 7:00 a.m. tweeting high praise for roger stone for saying on abc's sunday morning program that he would never testify against donald trump. it seems like roger stone heard that praise, may have heard an implicit guarantee of a pardon and today pleading the fifth in

the senate judiciary committee. what do you think? >> yeah, i think there's two things at play here, nicolle. first what you just said, he feels emboldened maybe he could act with some sense of impunity because he appears to have the endorsement or blessing of donald trump in how he handles this investigation as long as he doesn't flip on trump. the other thing, of course, is the michael cohen guilty plea on charges that he lied to the senate intelligence committee. so you can see how there would be some caution among folks who are trying to walk that very tricky line between trying to have donald trump's back and also keep themselves out of poem legal trouble. >> so you know roger stone is probably -- he's right at the center of this, right? >> of course. >> and there was reporting last week about how jerome corsi told roger stone ten weeks before the wikileaks came out that this was going to happen, right? we also had recording in "the guardian" around manafort's

meeting with assange in the spring of 2016 right before he took over the campaign managing position for the trump campaign. but roger stone is right in the middle of this. it's not surprising he will take the fifth. i think he's deeply exposed on this. i think as we learn more and more about his connections as an independent mary between russia and wikileaks and the trump campaign, it's going to shine a light on what happened. >> what a swamp of deception. >> right. >> corrupt liars. >> exactly. the people that the president of the united states surrounded himself with that he has drawn into the center of american politics, you know, and your analogy of picking up the rock, you know every time you look at paul manafort, you're going to find some other form of mendacity or vinality or lying but it's that entire universe of people. so who knows where we're going to go with this. friday is going to be

extraordinarily interesting when we get that sentencing memo on manafort. we will see whether mueller tells this story. i think this is going to be a very, very consequential week for the russian investigation. >> is this the best and brightest, right? >> the best and brightest. >> yeah, i totally agree. >> it's wild. like this is what we're talking about. we just talked about paul manafort, who by the way worked for donald trump for free, right? for free. and look where we are now. and with this roger stone story, it's not surprising p roger stone said himself he's going to be indicted. robert mueller spent so much time interviewing everybody around him trying to get to him, and he has been probably the most exposed person out of all of this, but now with the pleading the fifth, he does feel emboldened because donald trump has been -- >> tampering. the message was received. >> right. and so donald trump has put that signal out and he's been doing

it for a long time. let's not forget who the first person he gave a pardon to, joe arpaio. he sent that message from august of 2017. >> it's all happening in slow motion. the fact we're not catching him as a mob boss on a wiretap, he's the president of the united states tweeting it out in public does not change the fact you had a witness who is now effectively successfully -- >> impeachment. >> ken vogel, thank you for coming on for the reporting and staying for the breaking news. we're grateful for that. we're going to sneak in our last break. - [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations,

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doug, michelle, charlie, thank you all for joining us. that does it for us, i'm nicolle wallace. "mpt daily" starts right now. hi, chuck. >> nicolle, thank you very much. if it's tuesday, is mueller about to go public? good evening. i'm chuck todd. welcome to "mpt daily." you're looking at live pictures at the capitol rotunda where george h.w. bush is lying in state at the cathedral and then the 41st american president will be laid to rest in texas. just a moment president trump arrived to see the bush family. we will speak to