amongst all the other news we wanted to show you something that occurred moments ago. former president bush coming back out. at the rotunda, celebrating the great life of his father, george h.w. bush. we wanted to show you a couple of those moments that just happened. we'll be back at 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. "hardball" starts now. are we coming to the end? let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews from washington. tonight we're awaiting what could be bombshell news out of the special counsel's investigation. at any moment robert mueller's prosecutors are file a key memo in the sentencing of trump's former national security adviser michael flynn. a memo that could answer the question at the heart of the russia probe. did the trump campaign

collaborate with moscow to beat hillary clinton? as one of the first witnesses to flip against the president, michael flynn has been cooperating with federal investigators for over a year. in fact, he appears to be so valuable as a witness that the special counsel delayed his sentencing four times. as a former top adviser to the president, both on the campaign trail and in the white house briefly, flynn was in a position to know firsthand about any collaboration, collusion with the russian government, which could include a quid pro quo for sanctions relief. in fact, flynn came to the campaign with his own connections to vladimir putin. in 2015, there he is, he famously attended a dinner with the russian autocrat to celebrate the kremlin's state-run news network. there's something to celebrate. anyway, flynn pleaded guilty last year to one count of making false statements to the fbi. after lying to investigators about his conversations with the russian ambassador. specifically, flynn told the fbi

that he did not discuss u.s. sanctions with the ambassador when, in fact, he had discussed sanctions with the russian ambassador. the question is, why did he lie? why would flynn commit a felony, perjure himself to cover it up? as a potential reckoning draws near, the president's recent behavior has raised new questions about obstruction of justice and witness tampering as well. yet the president attacked a cooperating witness while encouraging another key figure to remain silent. in a tweet the president slammed michael cohen saying he makes up stories to get a great and reduced sentence and praised roger stone for not testifying against him. saying, nice to know some people still have guts. i'm joined by former director of the cia, john brennan. mr. director, thank you about this. i was thinking late this afternoon as we await this memo from the special prosecutor, is it possible that michael flynn, who was brought in as trump's

foreign policy adviser, national security adviser, the works, throughout the campaign, in fact, he wanted him to be his national security adviser, to run all foreign policy, didn't know there was collaboration with the russians if there was? >> it's possible that mike flynn was kept out of some of the aspects of the campaign. interactions with the russians. mike flynn knows foreign policy and so, therefore, he was looked to for his advice on that front. but there might have been some things going on behind the scenes about how to influence the american electorate that mike might not have been aware of. maybe he encountered some of it. i think that's what the mueller team is trying to do, find out exactly what he knew during the campaign. >> what would be the motive for him lying about it, for example, saying we didn't talk sanctions with the russian ambassador when he did? >> i think mike probably realized when he was being questioned the first time that he made a mistake and he shouldn't have been talking to the russians. >> why was that a mistake?

>> well, if it was, in fact, something that he felt that he shouldn't have been doing because it was engaging with the russians in a manner that was inappropriate during the period of time before the inauguration -- and i don't know the circumstances under which mike had interacted with folks. i know some things, but who knows what was behind michael's decision to lie to investigators. >> what do you make of trump's behavior, the president -- now the president where he goes to certain witnesses and says, keep a stiff upper lip, don't talk, you're my guy, and then trashes the integrity of anybody like michael flynn who does squawk, if you will, in mob terminology? >> well, i think just what you said, mob terminology because it's almost a mob and attitude, trying to influence those individuals who might think about cooperating, praising those who have stood firm and trashing those who have spoken out of school. i think it is so typical trump and so typical mob -- >> well, it's right out of

"godfather ii" where he goes to the prison and afraid five angels and tells him if he commits suicide, basically, his family will be left alone. it's not that bad yet. >> no, but it's not surprising in terms of how trump has operated, i think, through the years. as he became president-elect, i think he was continuing to use some of these tactics. now as things get a little more difficult for him, dealing with an investigation that will not go away, despite his best interest and best wishes, he is now resorting to whatever tactic he can to try to convince individuals that stick by me, you know, ride it out, we'll be fine here. but i think less and less he's able to convince people about that. >> you've worked with real presidents, presidents that follow the norms. >> yes, i have. >> how much of an outlaw is this one? >> total outlier. >> how about an outlaw? >> i think that's what bob mueller is going to decide, whether there's been criminal activity here. certainly he is not doing things the way, i think, most

presidents have done them in the past, especially from the standpoint of trying to protect his own interest as well as his, you know, his family's interest, his business interest while he's in the oval office. i've never seen that in any president i've worked with before. >> what comes first, the chicken or the egg, the money in russia, which is why he went after the miss universe, he built the tower over there, he kept up his business dealings, at the same time he sort of wanted to be president. what was his guiding motive, do you think, money or power? >> well, i think it was both, but i don't think he was expecting to be elected president. and that's why throughout the course of the campaign, he was keeping a lot of those business fires burning in anticipation that he was going to be able to capitalize on his increased notorie notoriety. >> why did he run if he didn't expect to bin? >> i think it was part of his branding efforts. he's always trying to increase his profile. being republican candidate for the president of the united

states, that certainly gave him more notoriety than he's ever had in the past. i think he was hoping to be able to exploit that after he was defeated. >> so, political famous is cash in the bank. >> absolutely. especially on the international front. it's clear he was going after the russian target for many, many years. >> anyway, michael flynn's legal problems began during the presidential transition when he discussed u.s. sanctions on russia with the russian ambassador in late december. i think december 28th. about two weeks later on january 15th, vice president pence publicly denied sanctions were discussed in flynn's conversations. let's watch the veep here. >> did mike flynn ever discuss lifting sanctions in any of those conversations, do you know? >> i talked to general flynn yesterday. and the conversations that took place at that time were not in any way related to new u.s. sanctions. >> well, the problem was that flynn had lied to the vice

president before he went on that show on sunday with chris wallace. flynn then repeated that lie to the fbi in an interview on january 24th, again covering up the nature of his conversation with the russian ambassador. president trump first learned flynn speak to the fbi on january 26th. it was just a day later that trump asked fbi director james comey, remember this one, for his personal loyalty to donald trump. and two weeks after that, flynn was fired for lying to the vice president. and the next day, on february 14th, president trump asked comey to drop the fbi's investigation of flynn. we're joined by harry litman, and natasha, staff writer. what do you make of michael flynn? the director here said -- director brennan says it's possible that he wouldn't know know some of this stuff, perhaps the. the quid pro quo regarding sanctions, i think michael flynn is invite in the middle of it. >> it seems like it, chris.

he repeatedly during trump's inaugural address is sending out a text saying, the sanctions are going to be off. we're going to be okay to do a nuclear deal that involves turkey but required the sanctions to go. i mean, we're going to find out what you make of him, but he's been this missing man for, you know, a year and a half. and he now resurfaces, having cooperated in obviously many, many of the cases. and, of course, he started at the sort of the first strike involving collusion. mueller, thereafter, went far and wide with other witnesses and now he's returning to the topic that flynn first told him about. and especially the point you made at the end, the valentine's day request to comey, can you drop this thing. flynn likely knows the backdrop there, including what trump knew about what the fbi was

investigating. that could really pin obstruction of justice charges on the president. >> you know, when a guy or person is under control of the fbi, under control of the special prosecutor for a year, give me a sense of what it's like. you basically have a vacuum cleaner going into your head for any possible -- do they go at it again and again and again to granulate any information that might help their case? tell me how it works because this guy flynn has been in the box with these guys for an awful long time now. >> the short answer is, yes. conversation after conversation first just to kind of establish trust and get the ground rules. but then repeatedly, session after session, including any time you're thinking of charging him or using him, you go over it again and again. typically from a position now of trust or more collegiality.

we just learned about cohen's 70 hours of conversation with the prosecutors. people were stunned. but that's not so much. you sit down and have conversation after conversation. once you're cooperating, the prosecution owns you. and they want to make sure every single particular is precisely right because any discrepancy at all could be fodder for the defense on the other side to really attack your credibility. >> well, it's clearly a great drama trying to figure out how michael flynn will be used. michael flynn was this president's number one guy. he was going to be his foreign policy guru. he was going to be his henry kissinger. now he's state's witness against him. natasha, this is drama. we're expecting it to percolate to a boil tonight some time when that report comes out. how does this fit into the story of donald trump's investigation, rather, his being investigated? >> yeah, so michael flynn is really at the center of multiple inquiries, as we've pointed out.

he's at the center of whether the campaign conspired with russia so lift sanctions for some kind of help during the election and he's also pivotal to the investigation in whether the president tried to obstruct justice. in that way he is very dangerous for president trump at this moment. i do think it's -- it's not -- it shouldn't be understated the extent to which michael flynn lied to the fbi. he was also, perhaps, trying to protect himself because as harry alluded to, he was also pursuing a nuclear deal to build nuclear reactors across the middle east with russia's help that would have required lifting sanctions on russia. so, this was not completely out of -- he didn't lie to the fbi completely out of loyalty to the president. we're not even sure that he has such a thing. so, i think that when considering whether or not -- or to the extent to which he has been cooperating fully with the special counsel, i think that self-preservation is key here. and, of course, the question of whether or not the president tried to obstruct justice, the

president kind of said that out in the open when he tweeted earlier this year that he had fired michael flynn because he had lied to the fbi. now, of course, people jumped on that because the president had said earlier that he didn't know that michael flynn had lied to the fbi before he fired him. so, that was just another area where it seemed like a kind of freudian slip that the president was owning up to. >> well, i accept the fact he had his own interest but he wasn't out exactly robbing gas stations. this guy was doing things that warmed up putin just slik he was warming him up for trump. as a trump surrogate during the 2016 campaign flynn was best known for leading chants, lock her up, that's a sweet line, during the republican national convention. here he goes in his gig for trump. >> lock her up, that's right. yeah, that's right. lock eher up! you guys are good.

damn right. exactly right. there's nothing wrong with that. >> again, i want to go back to a public servant, john brennan. that says to me -- i know this bothers people. it sounds a little politically incorrect but that's the kind of crap you expect from a third world brand-new nation, a democracy where every time you win an election, you put the other guys in jail. every time you lose an election you say it's rigged. it's just the language of the other sides are all criminals and your side has been robbed because there's no confidence in our institutions. here's a guy standing at a republican convention saying the candidate for the republican -- or the other side should go to jail. not just be defeated on november, but go to prison. for no crime that anybody can think of that hillary clinton committed. benghazi? they keep making up this stuff. >> many watching the convention that night who know mike flynn personally were very disappointed in the way he was just brought into is that partisan whirlpool. and, you know, engaging in that

chanting of lock her up. you're right, that's not what we expect of individuals. first of all, those who wore a uniform, secondly, those who are part of a process, an electoral process that is supposed to maintain some degree of decorum and calling for the former secretary of state to be locked up, you know, absent the type of process, again, that we expect -- >> a process, how about a crime and how about an indictment, how about some treen say, lock her up, except you don't like her and you're running against her. >> well, they're point, to the e-mail issue. >> i know. let me ask you about this while i have you here. this thing request khashoggi, you know what the phrase we all grew up with, plausible deniability. why is this president -- maybe you know the answer. why is he and his secretary of state and secretary of defense and all the people at the top refusing to listen to the tape of the torture and death of khashoggi over there in turkey? are they doing it just so they can say, well, there's doubt?

why are they not helping the truth come out? >> i don't think they need to listen to the tape to be convinced bin salman was responsible for the death of khashoggi. today on the hill today -- >> the cia director. >> laid out the evidence to the committee to the leadership there. but i think there has been ample evidence so far that this was something that was directed by mohammad bin salman, the crown prince of saudi arabia. they just don't want to abandon him. i think trump has put down the order that they're going to stick with him because of the relationship they've established with him. >> what do they want? they want a deal for israel? what's trump up to to deny the obvious truth of this murder? >> i don't know. it defies logic. i'm surprised that jim mattis has stood so strongly by the white house on this. i'm not surprised mike pompeo has. mike pompeo will do what donald trump wants. but it's clear, again, mohammad

bin salman was responsible for the murder of khashoggi. we need to tell saudi arabia bin salman needs to be held responsible, incarcerate the -- >> maybe beheaded is the right answer. that's what they do over there. thank you, john brennan, thank you, harry litman and natasha. we're awaiting the release of the mike flynn sentencing memo. we'll bring it to you as soon as it comes out. this is going to be the blockbuster, i think, not just for the week but the months ahead. we'll see when it comes out tonight. coming up, we're nearing mueller's end game. a new media reports suggest the special counsel is showing signs of wrapping up his investigation. how will president trump handle that pressure? plus, the legacy of george herbert walker bush. amy comes here. and the north carolina district nine congressional race is still being contested. are we seeing a case of voter

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show me decorating shows. this is staying connected with xfinity to make moving... simple. easy. awesome. stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. "hardball." the sentencing memo in the case of michael flynn is the first in a series of court documents this week that could disclose new details in special counsel robert mueller's investigation. this coming friday mueller's team will file two additional memos, one with potential details regarding former trump campaign chairman paul manafort and about the trump's fixer, michael cohen. trump kicked off the week attacking the special counsel writing on twitter, bob mueller

who is a much different man that people think and his out of band of angry democrats don't want truth, they only want lies. . the truth is very bad for their mission. yahoo! news reports court filings could be part of a signal the mueller investigation is preparing its end game. quote, trump prosecutors have told defense lawyers in recent weeks they are, quote, tying up loose ends in their investigation providing the clearest clues yet that the long-running probe into russia's interference in the 2016 election may be coming to its climax, potentially in the next few weeks. i'm joined by the author of that report, the chief investigative correspondent at yahoo! news. starting with michael who broke the story, we had these three memos coming out this week involving -- it seems all three people, by the way, manafort, flynn and cohen, all involved with the russian end. i don't know if that tells us

anything. are we getting to the end of the collusion piece of this, the obstruction piece or the whole s shebang? >> we're certainly likely to be getting toward the end if not the end of the obstruction phase of the investigation. and i think probably even on the collusion one as well. look, i think we're going to learn more this week than we've learned in the last year and a half about what mueller has been told. >> love it. >> these are the three most high-profile, crucial cooperating -- >> will we know there was collusion this week, from the mueller point of view? >> that's a whole other question how you define collusion. >> you're the expert, is it possible -- >> here's the thing, look, if -- mueller's going to put, i think, a lot of information, a lot of details in here. but if he was getting information from any of these three that was going to lead to other cases, they wouldn't be going through sentencing. the normal way prosecutors do it

is if have a cooperating witness who's pled guilty, you don't do sentencing until you're through with all the cases that that cooperator helps -- >> what's the memo? whaetsdz the filing? >> this is for sentencing. so, the fact they haven't asked for more delays on sentencing on cohen and flynn, they asked for four delays on flynn but now they're not asking for any more delays, is a sign, to me, that they're not expecting to bring additional cases based on what they've told them. >> against these guys? >> against anybody who they had fingered as a result. now, with flynn, it's most likely relating to obstruction, what he knew about the conversations with kislyak, his conversations with trump, what contacts he had with trump after he left the white house, all that's very key to an obstruction case. but that would be something mueller would put in a report. not bring in a criminal case. >> let's go down to what we

know, which is trump tried to get comey, then fbi director to drop this case. to drop the investigation of michael flynn. he said he's a good guy, give him a break. he also then fired the guy when he wouldn't play ball with him. is that going to be what flynn can report on, what trump was talking to him about while he was doing all this with comey? >> sure. we haven't heard from flynn in a long time. was it december 17 he was -- >> yeah, it was practically a year ago. >> this guy has been silent be for a year. we know he's been cooperating because mueller keeps delaying. four delays? >> four delays. >> four delays. so, he keeps giving them more. we haven't heard anything from flynn. yes, obstruction is obviously part of it, but flynn was by his side on the campaign. he was flying around with trump on that jet. they were talking in the campaign. so, anything that happened during the campaign that potentially had something to do with -- >> that's what i think. let me run this by both of you, by director brennan. is it really plausible that

flynn didn't know that the hanky panky was going on with russia with the sanctions and all that, in other words, if there was collaboration over policy, not money, he would have known about it? >> no doubt. >> you had that incredibling compelling document last week where we found out michael cohen was in communications with vladimir putin's office during the campaign. that was new. that was highly -- >> according to his press secretary who said i have the phone calls from the guy, the e-mails. >> right, right. but that was the trump organization, flynn may not have had any insight into that. there's no reason to think he would. but remember, you know, under department of justice policy, they can't diindict the preside. mueller can't do that. all he can do with this information he's gotten from all these people is then put it in some sort of report, right, that will go to now matthew whitaker. what happens after that is, you

know, that's a jump ball with congress. but he will probably try to put as much as he can in these sentencing memos, which is why i think they're so important. >> trump spent part of yesterday tweeting about michael cohen, about cohen's -- after cohen's attorneys filed a memo requesting no prison time due to cohen's cooperation with mueller and three other investigations into trump and his inner circle. trump doesn't like the fact this guy is getting off for squawking. "the new york times" reports of cohen's motivation reporting all of those in mueller's crosshairs, cohen has taken perhaps the most surprising and risky legal strategy in cooperating. the report goes on to say, he did all this without first obtaining a traditional iron clad deal under which the government would seek leniency on his behalf. this is fascinating to me. cohen has basically decided he's left the ship, left trump, he's on the other side now. he said, i'm putting all my money on, i'm going to bring down trump, tell all the truth i

got with somewhere down the road i'll spend a couple years in prison but i'll be better off for being against trump than being with him. >> according to people who have spoken to michael cohen within the last few months, he felt personally betrayed. he felt that he had done everything for trump and then was iced out when it really came down to it. >> but before the prosecutions. he was iced out because he wasn't getting a job. >> it was a sort of slower process. i think he thought he was going to get a job and then didn't. but the point is, cohen clearly now, it's personal, it's beyond -- yes, he's going to give it all up but he sees his path to redemption as bringing down trump, as putting everything out there that he has. >> michael, you agree with that? >> yeah. >> between cohen and trump. >> yeah and you know what i think this calls for? congress has really dropped the ball here. we've had no public hearings of any of the key factors -- >> you know republican controlled -- republican controlled, okay. but now the democrats and the house will have the opportunity.

they should be calling michael cohen in january to testify, in public, under oath, tell the whole story of every conversation he's had with trump. >> what can congress do that mueller can't do? >> air it for the world so we can all know and make our own determination. >> i would put my money on robert mueller over congress to get the job done. >> but mueller's brief is very narrow. it's to make criminal cases. it's up to congress to inform the public about what's really happening. >> we shouldn't prejudge. let's hope congress, the chairman of the judiciary committee, chairman of reform committee do their job. michael has made it pointedly clear. thank you both. you're the best, buddy. no, he is. you're good, too. >> i thought you were saying me the best. >> no, he's been around a long time. >> you're so damn good. >> you guys should get a room. >> is that a comedy here? up next, senator amy

klobuchar talks seriously compared to this talks about what she calls the grace and dignity with which the late president george herbert walker bush treated his friends and some rivals. i want to hear a little of this from a good democrat. this is "hardball," where the action is. (burke) parking splat. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ (boy) got it. nooooooo... (dad) nooooooo... (vo) quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is two times more absorbent. bounty, the quicker picker upper. i've done all sorts of research,

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the new capital one savor card. earn 4% cash back on dining and 4% on entertainment. now when you go out, you cash in. what's in your wallet? welcome back to "hardball." members of the public visited the capitol rotunda today. i joined them, by the way, to

pay respects to our 41st president, including senate majority leader bob dole, in a powerful moment, he's getting helped out of his wheelchair. he's an older man. he has a lot of war wounds working on him seriously and he wanted to show man-to-man respect, person-to-person respect to the man he ran against in 1988 in the republican primaries. that was one tough primary campaign. there's been a lot of outpouring and praise for the president. i was impressed both sides, minnesota democratic snore amy klobuchar joins us. she commemorated george h.w. bush's devotion to bipartisanship today. >> for george h.w. bush patriotism was bigger than political rivalries. president bush was someone who fought hard on the campaign trail, but once the votes were cast, he understood the underlying truth of america. that people with different political views are not enemies

and that when all is said and done, we can come together to advance the cause of america. not tear it down. >> i'm a fan of yours, so i'm asking the toughest question i give anybody. what can you, a democratic senator, who's very well known and respected, do to bring this country, despite the fact we have trump as president, is there any way the country can improve, despite having him as president? or does he have the power to keep bringing us down himself? >> i think that already started, chris, with this last election where you saw record turnouts of people that came out and said, enough is enough. moderate republicans, independents, democrats, young -- >> women. >> -- young people, women. they said, we want a different america. we want civility. look at the numbers. look at the new people we elected, so i think that's the first step. the second is to continue, despite the bad tweets, despite the statements, to look not just

for common ground but have that bring us to a higher ground. we request do something right now, right now in the next two weeks, we can pass criminal justice reform. something that has support on the left and the right and is long overdue. we can get the farm i will bill -- >> have you talked to the president -- i don't think i've talked to him directly. i've certainly talked to his family members about it. i've talked to his staff about it. i've had dinner with people on his staff about it, with senator durbin and others because i feel so strongly that it needs to get done. >> meanwhile, roger stone said today in response to a request for the senate judiciary committee, which you're a member, ranking member dianne feinstein, to her, he said he plans to plead the fifth amendment meaning he will not provide documents or appear for an interview before the committee. what do you make of this? he's the guy at the heart of stuff with russia and wikileaks and a whole lot of stuff and he says i'm not talking. >> we're trying to figure this

out. this request came over a year ago. this was out of the blue. i talked to some staff members that he sent this response in. the thought is why is he suddenly saying he'll plead the fifth? maybe he's trying to send a message to adam schiff in the house if they start hearings, maybe he's trying to send a message to mueller. we don't know. what i do know is we have to allow this investigation to continue. this is an investigation of a foreign power that tried to influence our election, that tried to hack into our equipment. this is about our democracy. so, that is our number one goal right now. >> speaking of democracy, this election coming up for president is going to begin -- we all know from history it starts next january, a couple months from now. it's a year from the primaries already. everybody knows the fight is going to be in the battleground, the middle of the country. it will be in minnesota, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, ohio all went for trump. how do you win it back? you have the personality to do it, but do you have -- do you have to have toughness?

you have to take on joe biden maybe. he says he's the best prepared. >> all right. first of all, let's start there. joe, everyone loves joe. he was an incredible vice president. what he said is he was experienced. that's a true fact and he said he's going to talk -- >> he said he's the best prepared. the best. >> okay. he has a lot of experience for this job. and that's all he said. i'm not going to criticize this guy because he's an incredible patriot. we go to the next thing. there's going to be a lot of people running but i think it's important that people are running from the midwest. the midwest came roaring back in 2018. i'm considering it. there's a number of people considering it. >> what would stop you? >> look, it is a daunting task to make that decision. you have to decide you would be a good president, that you could bring the country together. that you would be able to beat donald trump or whoever the other party put on. but to do it right, i really think you have to do what i said at the beginning. you have to find common ground. i do have that track record. but for the purpose of bringing this country to a higher ground, when you think of george h.w.

bush, you think of what he did, i saw that clip of bob dole. i hadn't seen it until i watched it on your show. it was george h.w. bush who then pushed for the passage of the americans with disabilitiesability for a lot of people against his party that didn't want to do it. >> for bob. >> you look at the clean environment act. we need leadership that's willing to take on those tough causes like climate change. george h.w. bush, he did that. he saw his party as a party of conservation. a party of not just people who are fighting off change. he saw it as, you got to find your moments and reach across the aisle and get things done. so, that's what i think we need to do right now when you look at this major challenge of climate change and everything else we're facing. so, when we pause for a moment tomorrow at this funeral, we have to remember that this is a person that we have to recognize not just in words but we then have to go back and do the deeds. >> do you think -- >> which is passing these

important bills. >> you just did. i was very -- i'm going to read that statement again. i do think that's exact tone to beat this guy if he runs. >> okay. >> and i think you come from the part of the country that seems to be more important than any other part because the south is going to stay republican, the west -- the left coast will stay democrat, the east will stay, but it's the middle america, of the midwest and the industrial northern middle west that is going to decide these elections. and you have the accent and the manner and the personality and the politics. >> and i think you need a little humor because i'm telling you, you just take this guy and go down every rabbit hole -- >> i want you to come up with a nickname for him. amy klobuchar, member of the senate judiciary committee, very important senator as she continues these things like criminal reform. up next, senators on both sides of the aisle say there's no question that the crown prince of saudi arabia ordered the killing of jamal khashoggi, an american reporter.

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welcome back to "hardball." allegations of vote stealing in north carolina's ninth congressional district continue to swirl and vote theft in bladen county. yesterday wsoc spoke to a woman who seemed to be part of a targeted effort to illegally pick up ab tentee ballots in the county. according to a new report, a second woman confirms she, too, was paid to collect completed absentee ballots, not know if they were delivered. a guy or gal comes along and says, i want your ballot and hauls it off. mccrae dowless is at the center of the scheme. he denies any wrongdoing.

steny hoyer told reporters today that democrats might refuse to seat harris unless and until substantial questions are resolved. he told "the washington post," quote, the house has, as you know, the authority over the propriety of the election. joining me, katty kay, former democratic congresswoman of maryland, donna edwards and michael steele, former rnc chair. i have to ask you, donna, i don't know much. i hear about it once in a while. i generally think american elections are clean, in other words, your votes get counted, generally. we don't have rigging like trump talks about and some new democracies have it. this looks like the old stuff, you know, typing in -- send me a ballot and you get the ballot and the next day someone shows up and says, you got your ballot. if it's got the wrong information or the wrong votes, they throw it in the trash can. if it hasn't been filled out, they fill it out for their guy

and they cash it in and put it into the system. >> well, you know, you talk to plenty of voters, and i have, who don't like to file absentee ballots because they're afraid of exactly that. keep in mind that the elections are conducted county by county and then the state. and so, you could see that it -- that if someone were nefarious, it would be easy to manipulate. here, you have real evidence. people saying, i was paid to do "x" and to change ballots. we don't know how much that took place across the state or whether it was just confined to these two counties. >> it's an african-american county. they went to older people. you know how it works. they go to people trusting of public officials. they're 87 years by, i'll collect the ballot, you don't have to pay the postage. they look official. >> they look official, sound official and acting, quote, in an official capacity to help this senior citizen.

the sad part of this narrative is this was taking advantage of a segment of the population, elderly folks in particular. it's particularly ironic that my party, which often enlarges these charges at the feet of democrats are the ones behind this particular nefarious acts. >> life has changed. in the old days democrats ran the old ethnic cities and ran the game. now your party is trying to save itself with a diminishing demographic reality. >> in a democratic district and you have more absentee voters than you have population. it's crazy. >> doesn't look very smart, right? if you're going to do election fraud, do it a little smarter. they left a trail of witnesses, they have more absentee ballots than people. >> i want to get into this international thing. earlier today cia director who seems like a straight arrow briefed a small group of reporters on the murder of jamal khashoggi in turkey. exiting the briefing they were

convinced that the crown prince of saudi arabia was responsible for the killing and some even rebuked the trump administration for its response -- its lack of response, its deniability. let's watch. >> if he was in front of a jury, he would be convicted in 30 minutes. >> you have to be willfully blind not to come to the conclusion that this was orchestrated and organized by people in -- under the command of mbs. as to pompeo and mattis, i have great respect for them. i would imagine if they were democrat -- in a democratic administration, i would be all over them for being in the pocket of saudi arabia, but since i have such respect for them, i'm going to assume they're be, good soldiers. >> wow, that was so sarcastic by lindsey basically saying they're lying. last week the administration made a concerted effort to dismiss the link between the murder of khashoggi and the crown prince. let's watch their cover game

here. >> you can conclude that maybe he did or maybe he didn't. >> there is no direct reporting connecting the crown prince to the order to murder jamal khashoggi. >> we have no smoking gun that the crown prince was involved. >> i'm so impressed. i shouldn't say this because i'll be sarcastic that lindsey graham finally said, i'm not going along with this crowd on this one. >> he's been saying this for a while. not only did he say, i think the crown prince is behind this, he also threw pompeo and mattis under the bus by saying effectively they are using intelligence for political means. whether they can actually now do anything about this because anything they vote on in the senate can get vetoed by the president, who's made it clear he'll put that relationship first. was striking, the white house didn't want her to testify. >> good for her. >> she goes up and they don't come out of that -- >> i love it. this question of, why is -- i always wonder why people do things to get them this trouble. why are we defending a killer?

>> it's such a good question. it leaves open the question of whether donald trump is doing this because of other motivations -- >> how about this, the grand deal involving -- >> a financial the soviet union and net -- the protector of mecca. it's a looney-tune idea. >> mbs is behind this obviously, these senators know that. there are things, in fact, that democrats can do particularly when they come in the house and call for a full briefing of the house and the senate so that everybody's on the same page about what this intelligence is. >> i'd echo that. i appreciate getting in front of cameras and expressing outrage. but show me your walk. show me what we're going to do. is there resolution? >> is there a bill the president doesn't veto? >> extradite the prince. put him in a caboose.

thank you to my panel. up next, joe biden says he's the most confidence person to be president. does that mean he's running? sounds like it. you're watching "hardball." ♪ ♪

welcome back to "hardball." vormer vice president joe biden seems to be inching closer to making a decision on running for 2020. he told a room full of people in montana i think i'm the most qualified person in the country

to be president. when asked if the fact that he was prone to gaps would turn people off he said i may be a gaffe machine, but my god what a wonderful thing what guy who can't tell the truth. when we return tonight, finish with the american moment we saw at the capital today. what a sight. you're watching "hardball." as one of the nation's largest investors in infrastructure, we don't just help power the american dream,

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let me finish tonight with that american moment today in the capitol, bob dole, the republican leader who never got to be president saluting george bush who did. there was was quite a rumble back in the day. bush then the vice president ran a tv ad that excoriated dole, then a kansas senator, for trying to have it both ways on a tax bill. it was called the straddle ad. it made dole looked like he lacked the guts to take a stand. dole didn't like it. when tom brokaw asked if he who had just lost a new hampshire primary had a message for the candidate who had just won, he did, tell him to stop lying about my record. i remember that moment. and though i know it made dole look bad, i always thought he had a reason to be riled. after all, we're talking about a guy who got shot and permanently handicapped when carrying a wounded fellow soldier through german fu

german gunfire, that's not someone who's afraid to show his colors. he got up from his wheelchair to salute the other guy, the greatest generation tom brokaw christened them. there they were today, the living, the lost, both firmly in the american scroll of honor. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> general flynn is a wonderful man. >> mueller time for michael flynn. >> well, i feel badly for general flynn. >> the sentencing memo -- what we know about mark for identification's cooperation with the special counsel and what it could tell us about what mueller knows about trump and the russians. plus, ben wittes, robert mueller is laying seeds to the -- the election scandal grows in north carolina. >> he was more like need