from that. but others of his advisers, his economic advisers, thought he made a dreadful mistake and that was probably right. >> bruce bartlett, i appreciate you coming on the show. that brings this hour to a close for me. ali velshi will be back tomorrow and i'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 eastern. deadline white house with nicolle wallace starts right now. place, the xfinity xfi gateway.

and it's strengthened by xfi pods, which plug in to extend the wifi even farther, past anything that stands in its way. ...well almost anything. leave no room behind with xfi pods. simple. easy. awesome. click or visit a retail store today. inhospitable to it. the bush family is as tight knit as they come. and their love for one another was abundantly clear. some of the president's closest friends, world leaders and historians came together lifting one another up and lifting their hearts. we felt their great love in the little moments like when george w. bush once again snuck michelle obama a mint right before he took his seat and when jeb bush handed his brother george w. some tissues.

when the family respectfully greeted a man who hasn't been kind to them. donald trump who sat at the end of the row of living presidents. trump hasn't spoken to the obamas or clintons since around the time of his inauguration but all of this was a testament to something jon meacham said of george h.w. bush in his eulogy. >> a master of what franklin roosevelt called the science of human relationships. he believed that to whom much was given, much is expected. and because life gave him so much, he gave back again and again and again. an imperfect man, he left us a more perfect union. >> sure did. it was george w. bush who delivered the most powerful, the most emotional moment of the day, showing us the unmistakable grief of a son. >> dad could relate to people from all walks of life.

he was an empathetic man. he valued character over pedigree, and he was no cynic. he looked for the good in each person, and he usually found it. in victory he shared credit. when he lost, he shouldered the blame. he accepted that failure is a part of living a full life but taught us never to be defined by failure. he showed us how setbacks can strengthen. through our tears, let us know the blessings of knowing and loving you, a great and noble man. the best father a son or daughter could have. and in our grief, i smile knowing that dad is hugging robin and holding mom's hand again. >> joining us is presidential historian michael beschloss, eugene robinson, who was my wing

man on the cold rooftop and peter baker. peter baker, you've been writing incredible stories, but incredible stories about the bush family since the 41st president's death friday night. take us through what you reported this afternoon. >> well, it was a moving ceremony. it was a celebration of an extraordinary life. it was a celebration of a time that seems past, right? a time of -- as you point out, bipartisan legislation on the environment, on civil rights, on disabilitied, protections. and it was a celebration of a style of leadership. very human in its orientation. a style of friends rather than enemies. a style of conciliation, not anger. and it was, i think, a moment for washington to pause and reflect on the way things have gone. you saw the president of the united states, president trump, sitting there watching all of this. not given a role to speak. unusual for an incumbent president. at times seem to be defiant.

held his hands up, arms up like this as if he wasn't quite happy with what he was hearing but otherwise kept quiet. decided not to make any outward remarks to spoil the occasion. so it was a coming together for washington, i think. >> you covered this. the news of this, and the news of this was its contrast in some ways to great senator mccain's funeral. less of an overt sense of rebuke to mr. trump than at the funeral for john mccain in september where he was not invited but the implicit contrast between the former and current presidents were hard to miss. and you make this point that everyone felt and hadn't heard anyone say it out loud or write it until i read your piece, without directly saying so, the speakers pushed back against mr. trump's mockery of the volunteerism slogan, a thousand points of light during campaign rallies this year. to us, the younger bush said his was the brightest of a thousand points of light.

>> that's exactly right. and jon meacham connected the thousand points of light to abraham lincoln and said they were the touch stones of the american national hymn in effect. that was intentional. whether it was directly related to trump's speech or not. they were a way of defining president bush for this era and what politics could be, the way they felt it should be. and i think it was no accident. there were other moments, too. brian mulroney, the former prime minister of canada talked about the importance of nato and nafta. both things that president trump, sitting just ten feet away at that point, has questioned or criticized. and i think there was this discussion of finding the best in people and reaching out to people. again, a testament to president bush but also it's hard not to hear that and watch the current president and wonder about the very different style of politics. >> michael beschloss, where are we as a country when you cannot praise nato allies and character

without rebuking the current leader of our country? >> if someone had given a eulogy like that five years ago and muel mulroney and praised nato, we probably would have been nodding off. >> now it's a headline. >> now it's a political act. if someone says george h.w. bush was modest, it's a statement about donald trump. if someone -- or taken to be. if someone says that george w. bush tried to reach across the aisle, that's what most people have done during most of american history, but hard to say it without it seeming like, i guarantee you that donald trump, who is not exactly known for not saying everything in his own terms, i'm sure he took those things as insults rather than realizing that people were just saying what they were going to say. >> it's such an interesting point you make because there has not been an example since he emerged on the political stage of him being able to see anything as not about him. >> right.

>> everything is about -- so this was a service not about him. >> and the premise of being invited was that at least for two hours maybe you'd stop all this and it's not about you and just take it in. >> it really wasn't about him. >> all he could do was sit there and the rest of the program went on. i thought it was very powerful and i thought he was irrelevant and it was -- you know, it was a busy day. a very cold day up on that roof. but there are really two moments for me. of course, the moment we just showed when bush 43 at the end mentioned on the air, i've buried my parents, my wife's parents. i've spoken at those funerals. and i don't think anybody could watch that, anybody who has gone through that could watch that

and not just feel that emotion. feel what he was feeling. if you feel lost, you feel very sad. you feel lost. and that was the moment -- and the other one was at the very end, we went off the air. we were on this very cold rooftop across from the cathedral as you know. you didn't find it as cold as the rest of us. >> i wasn't cold. i'm going to go to the doctor. >> blankets and everything else. she's just sitting there. northern california somewhere or something. >> so at the very end, we went off the air when the airplane, air force one, or special flight 41, i guess, took off. and all anyone could think of was getting off that roof. so we were sort of moving toward the stairway and somebody said look. and it's on a very high hill, the cathedral. you can see for miles in every direction.

you could look across to andrews and you could see the plane as it sort of flew away. and that just got me. and everybody just stopped. you just stopped and just watched the plane. it was something. >> peter baker, you wrote a great book about george w. bush's presidency and you knew how shaped he is and was by the love of his father and for his father. didn't necessarily direct his foreign policy to the chagrin of many people in 41's circle and people who were detractors of 43's foreign policy, but it shaped his every moment. i was thinking about that moment that eugene talked about that we played at the top of the show as being all about grief, but also about the burden of now being the patriarch of the bush family. >> that's exactly right. exactly right. one thing i thought was really striking is thinking about this relationship. it's a fraught relationship in some ways, of course, because any father and son have their

issues, and this is the son of a very great man who struggled to live up to his example as a young man. until he was 40 and quit drinking, until he really got his life on track and had to be in the shadow of his father when he was president, proving he was or was not the same. now in these last few years, they can both be father and son again. neither was president. neither had to second-guess or be second-guessed in relation to the other. they could just be father and son. i was struck by that. the two really came to peace in these last few years. the son wrote a book, a loving book. a love letter to his father. they -- i think sort of the culmination today of that remarkable last few years of their lives. >> where are we in our politics that we all covet the majesty of what we witnessed but we vote something very different. >> maybe some of those who covet what they saw today are not quite the same people who voted

for something else. but that may change. and i think anyone who does not like the confrontational politics of nowadays, american history is in cycles. we go through these periods of enormous confrontation before the civil war, for instance. things change. and in this case, you know, the period that we're going through, if donald trump leaves the presidency, doesn't win re-election or even leaves the presidency before 2021, his name, among many people, is going to be an epitehet -- >> to an era? more than just a politician. it's -- i mean, this is -- >> trump, if he goes down, and this is -- we're a long way from that. no one is predicting that at this point, but that will discredit, to a great degree that confrontational politics. i remember the time of richard nixon. when richard nixon went down in watergate, especially in that fall's election for the next few years, politicians all across the country were hard put just

straining to show how they were nothing like nixon. they told the truth and were not so -- >> all the transparency and the move -- >> look who we elected. jimmy carter. >> and he was lovely today. i want to ask you about -- no go ahead. >> you asked what kind of time this is. i think this is kind of a messy -- we don't fully understand. trump's election is a result of that, not the cause of that. and i think it's going to be messy for a while. it's not -- you know, even after trump, i think, it's going to be messy. maybe not as acrimonious and acrid as things are now. >> but if there's one political impact of the last few days, a lot of americans who didn't know much about george h.w. bush -- >> become students history. >> now they know who he was. he reached across the aisle. they know this was a decent and

modest man so that, let's say the things turn and people are yearning for a different kind of politics, but politician says now, i want to be another george h.w. bush, a week ago that may have been -- >> now it means something. >> what i want to ask you, gene, we have to be careful to your point exactly. people that are maybe learning this history now, it's not that he was a moderate. i mean, bush 41 was a partisan. president obama was a partisan. it's just that their dealings with other partisans were admiration for the other side. some of my best friends were democratic partisans on the campaigns that we fought with. but what -- and i think this is accurate. used to be the fights were pretend for the cameras and what was real was drinking together and coming over for dinner. and what they manufactured were some of the fights for political drama. now what's real is the animus between the two sides.

and what's fake is the -- >> right. it's manufactured. you are talking to somebody who disagreed with george bush's policies who remains offended by the willie horton ad, as really -- that was an independent ad, you know. >> it was a diluted version. >> it was really bad. but who longs for the ability to look at someone who doesn't share your politics and see. but this is basically a decent person. this is a person i can talk to. this is a person with whom we could perhaps work something out. not a mortal lifetime enemy with whom i can't even converse. >> gene is so right, and this is what the founders wanted.

they want us to fight all the time, but they wanted the people who were fighting to be at base, friends and colleagues. >> it goes to not questioning each other's motives. michelle obama talks about this. we had different ideas. and this is her answer to jenna bush who asked about the friendship. we had different ideas but agreed on the problems. can you jump in on some of the storytelling that went on. i imagine these kernels -- i knew the stories of george h.w. bush as a -- i don't want to disrespect him in death but he was a wild and sometimes reckless boat driver and george w. bush told a story about vladimir putin's translator having white knuckles as george h.w. bush took putin on a speed boat ride in maine. and i think that came up in a couple of the eulogies today. did you glean anything new you didn't know today about the bushes, about george h.w. bush today? >> well, i think what you glean from this is what a human person he is.

our presidents -- we exalt our presidents, make them larger than life, have these towering figures like ronald reagan or fdr, teddy roosevelt. george h.w. bush didn't necessarily fit the suit that ronald reagan had worn and yet seems so real. so genuine. the speed golf, broccoli hating, the pork rinds and so on. mangle the english language. but that made him real. a lot of real people didn't like broccoli. >> i hate it. >> the story he told that george w. bush told today, i had actually heard, but james a. baker sneaking in a bottle of vodka to the hospital, to a hospitalized george h.w. bush just as a small act of rebellion, not because he was going to drink but to say, you can't control my life. i get to have some small bit of control.

this is who he was. people relate to that. they know a george h.w. bush. if it's not in their immediately family, maybe an uncle or somebody else's father and they relate to them. whether they agree with his politics or not. >> he was lovely. one of my favorite things said today was from allan simpson who gave a wonderful eulogy. he loved a good joke. the richer the better. he'd give a great laugh but he never, ever, ever could remember a punch line and i mean never. so -- i can't either. i love all those stories. i learned some new things today. michael beschloss, peter baker, thank you both so much for everything you do, but especially for being here with me today. eugene is sticking around. when we come back, donald trump refrained from railing against the mueller investigation on twitter today. it's possible he had mr. mueller on his mind. a late night filing makes clear that mueller rewards truth telling and cooperation and isn't quite ready to show all of his cards just yet. is president obama searching

for the next democratic president? new details about his meetings with rising stars in his own party. and before all that, one more moment from today's celebration of the life of george herbert walker bush, the nation's 41st president. >> in his 90s, he took great delight when his closest pal james a. baker smuggled a bottle of grey goose vodka into his hospital room. apparently it paired well with the steak baker had delivered from morton's. so he took aleve. if he'd taken tylenol, he'd be stopping for more pills right now. only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. aleve. all day strong.

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robert mueller has a message for president trump and members of his inner circle ensnared in the russia probe. there's only one way to earn a get out of jail free card in the special counsel investigation. tell the truth and lots of it. mueller's message came in the form of a late-night court filing. a sentencing report recommending no jailtime for michael flynn because of his substantial cooperation with investigators. and what should be an ominous revelation, mueller writes, the defendant flynn participated in 19 interviews with the special counsel or department of justice and provided firsthand information about the content and context of his interactions between the transition team and russian government officials. mueller adds the ben efit of flynn's testimony may not be fully realized at this time because the investigations in which he's provided assistance are ongoing. team trump might want to brace itself for more potential indictments or guilty pleas in

the coming weeks or months. what we see in the filing is that mueller values cooperation but the greater danger may be in what we can't see. more than 50 lines of redactions in references to two known criminal investigations in which flynn cooperated. it suggests mueller hasn't come close to showing his hand and that we may not yet know who may be vulnerable and why. here to talk about all that, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, frank figliuzzi, former federal prosecutor paul butler, matt miller. i thought the delay in the filing took at least three days off your life last night. betsy is here for the daily beast and eugene is still here. frank, take me through what you saw in that filing last night. i saw a whole bunch of black lines and called a whole bunch of smart people to try to figure it out. take us through what you saw. >> two things that popped out are obvious to most folks but it's what's underneath that black magic marker that's got my attention. first, we see the word substantial regarding the level

of cooperation that mueller is seeing from mr. flynn. but what's redacted here is what's got everyone's attention because it's not what mueller's been doing. so we were all expecting him to tell a story. give us the information that we need to hear and lock it in to a publicly released document. but for some reason, he chose not to do that. my theory on that reason is that he's reached a level of sensitivity, a level of targets that he does not want yet to disclose. and that should have people at the white house very, very worried. >> i think frank is right. the thing that jumped off the page to me is the volume of the cooperation. it's 19 interviews. it's not just cooperation with mueller's investigation. it's at least two total, and i think three total investigations, depending on how you read it. it's not just cooperation with bob mueller's office but knows he's met with other offices inside the justice department. mueller has referred other investigations. so you hear sometimes from the

white house that they think they have a good handle on the russia investigation. i think a lot of that is bluster. but let's say they have some handle on at least the scope of what mueller's looking at. if you look at this filing and you find out mike flynn has been cooperate with two completely separate investigations, you probably have no idea what that's about. you have no idea what he's been telling them. and i would think you're completely terrified if you're one of the people in the campaign, in the transition in the early days of the white house who was meeting with him all the time. >> something about timeliness. paul butler, i want to read this to you. the usefulness of flynn's assistant is connected to its timeliness. his early cooperation was particularly valuable because he was one of the few people with long-term and firsthand insight regarding events and issues under investigation by the special koum. flynn's decision to plead guilty and cooperate likely affected the decision of related firsthand witnesses to be forthcoming and cooperate. that sounds like sort of legal

analysis for, we've already got the straight scoop from this guy mike flynn who is protecting his son and himself from potentially going to prison so you better fess up. >> so the first snitch always gets the best deal, in part because, as mueller acknowledges it encourages other people to come forward and cooperate because you don't know what's being said about you. the other way that we know that flynn's testimony is very valuable is because mueller is asking for no prison time. so even george papadopoulos, the coffee boy, got some time. and we know that michael flynn was a bad dude. so reportedly president obama only gave incoming president-elect trump one bit of personnel advice. don't hire michael flynn, he's dirty. sally yates said the same thing. and yet he was hired. what we need to know that mueller does know and the american people will find out is why president trump was being so protective of michael flynn.

if he knew that michael flynn had lied to the fbi and lied to the vice president about his dealings with the russians, if trump knew that when he was asking agents to go easy on flynn, that's more evidence of obstruction of justice on the part of the president. >> it's such a good point, betsy. there is no one except his family who trump has been more generous to than mike flynn, coming comey to see to it to let him go. constantly sort of pulling him through. i mean, chris christie didn't have him on any of the lists for the job he ultimately got or the has any of other national security agency as others have said. president obama warned him about mike flynn. he wanted him there. we don't yet know why. >> flynn had unique and arguably unparalleled insight into the trump administration, all the way back through transition where he was a very senior official running the national security counsel's transition

project and through the bulk of the presidential campaign. the most interesting campaign times, flynn had a front row seat. and flynn's cooperation with mueller should cause concern not just for the president but also for jared kushner. mueller seems to hint in this memo that he is interested in the conversations in the lead-up to the u.n. security council's resolution that would have criticized israel for building settlements in the west bank. in court filings it says the senior transition team official directed flynn to reach out to the russian ambassador and ask the russians to try to postpone that key and geopolitically significant u.n. security council vote. flynn made that ask. it's been reported, though it hasn't showed up in any court filings, that the individual who directed flynn to make that outreach to the russians to try to change the way that geopolitics worked was jared kushner. >> and this was about israel. this ended up in jared kushner's and he's in charge of mideast

peace so it would be logical that's cukushner's call. the president's singular loyalty to michael flynn. >> it's a great question. there are obviously -- there are obviously legitimating explanations for it. >> what? liked him the most. >> on the campaign with him. he was a general. the president likes generals. >> christie was on the campaign with him and got nothing. rudy giuliani. >> he went full lock her up at the convention. he went all the way. that's the most charitable explanation. the uncharitab ablable explanat the president knows mike flynn committed a crime on his behalf and has been worried that mike flynn would somehow tell -- either tell -- presumably tell the fib about that crime and that would bring the president down. one of the things that i've been waiting for us to find out the answer to, obviously, did -- when mike flynn talked to kislyak, did the president know? did he direct him to have those conversations about sanctions? but also, when the president

asked the fbi director to back off the flynn investigation, did he know that mike flynn had lied? it's a critical question. we know mike flynn did this crazy thing where he lied about his conversation. no real reason for him to do so. he could have just come clean. why did he lie, and why did the president ask the fbi director to back off? the worst explanation is the president knew he was committing a crime from day one, was involved in it, and that's the vast conspiracy we'll find out at the end of this. >> these are the unanswered questions. i'm going to venture to guess we don't have answers in the written questions. paul butler, can you jump in on this? what do you think we learned? is it clear to you as a former prosecutor, that the responses that mueller received from the president are going to be evaluated next to what we know to have been substantial cooperation from mike flynn on some of the very same questions? >> no question, nicolle. when giuliani was dilly dallying about whether trump would sit for an interview, it kind of looked like he was playing

robert mueller. but don't sleep on this special counsel. because he was using all of that time, that extra time, mueller was, to get people who are cooperating, like michael cohen and michael flynn, getting evidence about what went down from them so that his questions to the president could be even more precise. and so now trump in this written statement, his answers are locked in. if they are against the forensic evidence, the e-mails and the texts, the computer files and they are against the testimony of these cooperating witnesses, then the president is in trouble. >> paul butler, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. up next, while trump himself has not yet responded to mueller's latest move, his attorney rudy giuliani is firing back claiming mueller doesn't have bumpkis, really?

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i know all about flipping.

for 30, 40 years i've been watching flippers. everything is wonderful and then they get ten years in jail and they flip on whoever the next highest one is, or as high as you can go. it almost ought to be outlawed. it's not fair. >> they flip on criminals. what was that? flippers, trump's greater trigger even though he heads the government that relies on flippers. the announcement that flipper michael flynn may walk away without serving a day in prison prompted a fast rebuke from president trump's attorney rudy giuliani. here was his statement. wow, big crime for special whatever. maybe a group of angry bitter hillary supporters who are justifying themselves by the goal justifies the means. giuliani added this to nbc news, if he had information to share with mueller that hurt the president, you'd know it by now. there's a yiddish word that fits. you don't have bupkis. maybe this will convince all americans there was no collusion. joining us, aaron blake.

what is that? what was that? what was that? >> wishful thinking? >> like rudy from lunch, cocktail lunch? that was weird. >> they have this desire to constantly be arguing if we knew if through their was something damning here it would be out there. they've been arguing this about collusion. if they had collusion, we'd know about it. >> isn't the opposite true? if you were innocent, it would be over by now? >> of course, robert mueller is assembling a case. he wants to make sure until he needs to tell things to tell things. that's the reason we saw those redactions in the memo last night we were all waiting for to find out really important things and hope there would be something that would give us more. he served notice that he is not prepared to show his hand right now. he's not going to do that until he feels like he has to. and there's a very good reason for him not to do that at this point. >> frank, you want to help explain what that reason is?

>> because if you show your hand too early, people are going to change stories and be able to, like, submit new answers to written responses that maybe has refreshed their memory. so they want to correct the record. look, he's locking people into their statements. people are cooperating. as much as president trump would like to outlaw cooperation with the government, it's still happening. it's still alive and well because people do the right thing. >> can we talk about that, though? he's the head of the government. the justice department, federal prosecutors. cops. they solve grisly crimes by getting people to cooperate with law enforcement. i mean, it's pretty stunning that the president says that and we all keep going. >> i think on the list of very disturbing things the president has said, and it's a long list, this is up there for me because this gets to the heart of people doing the right thing. and the ability of law enforcement to actually enforce the law. if the president of the united states says don't snitch, then we've got a problem with enforcing the law and doing the right thing in our country.

>> we've also got a problem -- in kindergarten, in first grade. >> inner cities. the stop snitching kind of movement. now the president of the united states is leading the stop snitching. >> let me review something that might be bothering him. the number scaring the hell out of the trumps. 119. 70 hours of michael cohen interviews with mueller's team. and 19 michael flynn interviews with prosecutors. >> and how many lines of redaction in those documents? all that put together has got to frighten this white house and this president. you know, cohen is talking. the president is said to be particularly driven crazy by the fact that michael cohen is cooperating. we also know that prosecutors have talked to russell burke, the accountant. cohen has talked not just to

mueller but to other prosecutors, including some in new york, manhattan district attorney, new york state attorney general, the trump organization. you've got the trump foundation, all these finances commingled and with question marks and all these law enforcement agencies looking at them. this is kind of closing in from different directions. and this has to be really, really worrisome. >> is threally bluster? it's been the position of a lot of people around trump the sdny cases represent the greatest threat. does anything in that flynn filing change that in your view? >> the flynn filing indicates there's at least one mystery criminal investigation that he himself has been cooperating with. flynn is unlikely to have visibility into the trump organization financial

questions. he wouldn't have had a lot of overlap, at least that we know of with the alan weisselberg work. it's hard to speculate because there is so much redaction. but just from looking at the text that's unredacted, we know there's an investigation that's being run out of the justice department that is not part of the very large, almost sprawling mueller probe that michael flynn has relevant information on and that's something without a doubt would be disturbing to the white house. another thing important to remember going back a little earlier to those rudy giuliani quotes, including lots of all caps, giuliani would not -- >> it's like a brain transfer, right? >> we read these things and it looks wacky. but giuliani would not be saying this unless the president was okay with it. when he speaks, the president watches. when he goes on tv, and he puts out these statements and remarks, trump knows. if trump wanted him to rein himself in and to dial down the bluster and stop calling mueller's democratic -- >> of course.

he called for witness tampering on monday. there's no way there's anything about rudy's tweets that get under trump's skin. he's the mouthpiece for the president he's working for. >> look for this mystery criminal case to possibly involve another country, meddle with the election and flynn having -- >> you can't tease me. are you looking at middle east collusion? what your alluding to? a lot of reporting on relationships and contacts with some of the middle eastern governments and the khashoggi questions and the ignoring intel raises more questions there. is that what you're referring to? >> based on what's already being reported. look for saudi, look for turkey to be subject to investigation on the degree to which they tried to assist the trump campaign and/or meddle with the election. >> you picking up on any of that? >> the one piece we've seen mueller focus a lot of attention to is this question about the uae and the lobbyist, george nader who is now cooperating and

this republican fund-raiser. mike flynn sat in a meet with the crown prince of the united arab emirates and jared kushner during the transition. we know if mueller is looking at that piece of the investigation very hard. has been calling a lot of witnesses and intercepting people at airports. mike flynn was involved in a meeting, it would lead you to believe that's one of the things referred to in this memo. >> it looks like even if it's the final chapter, there's a lot of work left on the table. >> yeah, i'm not sure it's not necessarily going to be the end game. i saw that report, too. certainly that report led us to believe there may be more to grab hold of in this filing and certainly we didn't see that given all the redactions. >> if a quarter is three months and quarters with an s, that's two quarters. >> i look at this and say what does mueller have to gain by giving away the ball game in this filing on tuesday if he doesn't have to. if they'll move forward with the sentencing of michael flynn without requiring him to take any of this stuff out from under

seal and he can move forward with it, what incentive to show anything to us. so we'll see what the filings on friday look like. but judging by this, it doesn't sound like there are going to be a whole lot to grab old of on those. >> one quick thing. he may have not shared all this information with us publicly but it's now outside the executive branch. >> explain the importance of that. >> one thing we've always been worried about since matt whitaker took over is that the president or acting attorney general would reach in and shut this investigation down, order the cases closed. somehow find a way to cover all of this up. mueller probably has been thinking about this, too. we don't know his plan. all this evidence under seal is in the hands of a federal judge. the unredacted version. whatever happens to bob mueller, a federal judge who does not report to the president that can make this public at any time. >> and there could be a prairp trail. >> frank figliuzzi and betsy woodruff, thanks for spending time with us.

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♪ applebee's bigger bolder grill combos are back. now that's eatin good in the neighborhood. democratic enthusiasm is undaunted, even though they lost their elections in november. if they decide to jump into the 2020 presidential election, thai they'll have lots of company. dozens of people are thinking of running and running early in the rage and rapid reaction era of donald trump. oh, and they may be doing this while trying to impeach the guy they're running against. there will be women and men, african-americ african-americans, whites and hispanics, very young and very old. democratic officials tell axios the race will be the biggest strategic free-for-all in modern political history. with a quiet war for donors, staff and endorsements already being fought across the country.

an endorsement that will surely be coveted by all democratic candidates, that of former president barack obama who we're learning met with texas congressman beto o'rourke soon after his loss in his senate race. according to "the washington post," the meeting held november 16th at the former president's offices in foggy bottom came as former obama aides have encouraged the democratic house member to run. seeing him as capable of the same kind of inspirational campaign that caught fire in the 2008 presidential election. although it was unclear what was discussed, obama also met with andrew gillum yesterday. joining our conversation, jackie, author of the power up newsletter. president obama as the next person to anoint someone or do you think the democratic party is looking to find its own way? >> yeah, well, i also want to point out it's not just dozens. we count up the actual amount of people who have expressed some semblance of interest and he counted 45 different people.

but, you know -- >> that's like three debates. you can have like three. they can go for like six hours. oh, god, what a nightmare. >> that's a whole different problem in and of itself, how the dnc is going to democrat tiz the debates. an endorsement by obama is going to be highly coveted. but before we get there, but the democratic party is going to go through a major catharsis to whittle down from this 45 people. obama has met with elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, deval patrick, though he's said he's no longer considering running in 2020. i think it's interesting that beto different utilize obama's endorsement, because he said he didn't want anyone outside of texas telling texans how to vote. i'm wondering if that's foreshadowing any potential 2020 race, right? we saw hillary clinton get dozens of endorsements from beyonce to obama and didn't really seem to do anything for

her. >> beto, he's got that agility where, in the time of trump, he defends himself without getting in the gutter, and andrew gillum has it, too. do you think they displayed enough it factor to be serious contenders? >> someone reminded me yesterday evening that, you know, lincoln lost a senate race -- >> yeah, someone told me that, that beto was lincoln. >> beto is following that path. >> right. you know what he has is that -- he came within a point and a half of cruz in texas. >> right. >> this is -- this is -- he didn't win the race, but that's amazing. and he has the x-factor that connects with people and inspires them in a way that, you know, i've seen with president obama, you see with few politicians, including very good politicians that don't have that

thing. he has that thing. so, he's got to be considered, you know, i think -- at least on everybody's front page, first page of the list of potential contenders. and i think he'll be able to raise a lot of money. >> it says something that -- so, look, i think he's almost certainly going to run. why wouldn't you run, when you're getting all this attention? i think he will be, as jean said, one of the category of front-runners starting off. it's odd to say, but he's a normal human being. he's a natural person. >> biden has the same normalcy. think ha they have that same normal gene. >> i didn't come up with this, brian fallon, who worked on the clinton campaign, a colleague of mine for many years, said the thing that beto has going for him, trump just sucks up all the oxygen, he forces you to respond to him, and it has to be someone that has their own story, their way of campaigning, and o'rourke

has that more than anyone else. that doesn't mean he's going to win, but he brings an advantage to the table that we haven't seen yet, and the race hasn't even started, from a lot of the rest of the field. >> so, one of the things that a lot of people sort of diagnosed in the 2016 match-ups was the asymmetry of running against trump. first for the '16 republicans rn against him. jeb bush ran an ad that said he wasn't conservative. he's the least conservative person running. hillary clinton was a traditional candidate that tried to tell the truth as a candidate. trump lied, trump hit below the belt. trump mocked reporters. he was -- it was so awkward and uncomfortable for the 16 democrats and hillary clinton to fight fire with fire. do you think there's anyone in the 43 that have lined up who have internalized the asymmetry was as much a factor in his victory as anything else? >> i think one of the problems that democrats have in their field, and they do have a lot of

choices. they're going have a lot of choices to make in their field of candidate, no matter who runs, there are going to be different conditions, progressives, establishment candidates, i think if you look at the field, though, it is going to be the front-runners are likely to be older, likely to be more tied to the political establishment. some of them might be more progressive, some of them might be more moderate. but if you look at somebody like beto o'rourke, there is something different there that the established politicians won't be in touch with. we did see that with barack obama, who had been in politics before, but he had been in the state senate. he had only been in the senate for a couple of years when he decided that was his time to run for president, that was his opportunity. i wonder if beto o'rourke talking to obama about this, and by the way, if you look at obama's comments to david axelrod a few weeks ago, we talked about how this made sense and he almost had a twinkle in his eye. >> let me play that and we'll come back to you. >> impressive young man who ran

a terrific race in texas. and what i liked most about his race was that it didn't feel constantly poll-tested. it felt as if -- >> he didn't poll, in fact. >> it felt as if he based his statements and his positions on what he believed. >> so, that could be the -- his secret weapon, right? because you can't fight fire with fire when you are running against trump. trump has utter shamelessness. that's his super power. and you can't -- you can't be more shameless than maximum shamelessness, right? the lying and -- >> he's got the gut thing. >> you can't do that. you have to have another thing that's, you know, that -- that's powerful in a different way, i think. >> obama's statement there

should be the status quo for all politicians. people are hopefully running on things they actually believe in. but before we all get caught up in beto mania, let's look at people like bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, who have also attracted a following in the past few years and have been talked about since clinton was running. bernie, obviously, mounted a pretty competitive race against her with half the amount of resources and did what beto did before beto did it. >> and seemingly did it from the gut. we have to sneak in our last break. don't go anywhere. we're not. we'll be right back.

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you get the job today of buttoning up the day that was. >> i thought george w. bush gave a great eulogy of his father today. an historic circumstance in which the president was eulogizing his father, who was also president. i think being out of office has suited him well. i would imagine that after what people saw of that yueulogy tod, his favorability ratings would rise. >> i hope so. thank you to everybody that joined us today. that does it for this hour. i'm nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" joins us now. hi, chuck. >> good thing there were so many warm feelings in the cathedral, i'm trying to thaw out. >> i was not cold. maybe my down jacket was puffier. >> well done, anyway. thank you. if it's wednesday, the known/unknowns with mueller are growing.