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during donald trump's presidency. >> russia is a ruse. i have nothing to do with russia. and liar liar, pants on fire. paul manafort making comments. >> he worked for me for a very short time, but he happens to be a very good person. if as rudy giuliani says, truth is not truth, how do you figure out who is being honest? >> are you saying you can't trust paul manafort with a face like this? joshuadownsen, and legal analyst lisa green is with us, adrian el rod was director for, danny cevallos, and ken delaney,

who i think has been sleeping in a cot there, doing the yeoman's work. lisa, i want to start with you. a a picture of michael cohen. one memo praising him for his cooperation, and -- >> a of two michael cohens. robert mueller lauding his cooperation, but that devastating memo from the sdny, they are on their last nerve with this guy. they threw apart, tore up his defense counsel's claim that he wasn't going to sign or get involved in a cooperation memo, because he wanted to get past this and move on with his life. it was clear that his lawyer felt he was not a cooperating

witness. the possible reason for the difference is the nature of what he was telling the truth about. for mueller, largely trump-related issues. for the southern district most had to do with cohen's conduct. other things about his tax evasion. he seems to be -- and they want we're sick of people behaving this way, and they needed to make an example of this guy. >> there were two filings from robert mueller, none of them for individual one, identifiable as the president. we ticked through the 60-some pages, starting with the memo from the prosecutors, zeroing in on michael cohen's roles about the payments made to two women. as cohen has admitted, the memo reads, with respect to both

payments, he acted in coordinate, and in connection with individual one. >> the southern district federal prosecutors are alleging that the president committed a felony. they're not indicting him. he has any number of defenses available to him, but that's the document they filed. that's some of the document i have not seen in my lifetime. >> that's the southern district's memo. let's turn to robert mueller's memo. it michael cohen received the contact information for and spoke with a russian national who claimed to be a trusted person in the russian federation who could offer the campaign political synergy, and synergy on a government level. with the goal of setting up a meeting with candidate donald trump and vladimir putin,

but that meeting did not happen. this is what sarah huckabee sanders says -- the government's filings tell us nothing of value that was not already known. mr. cohen has repeatedly lied. as the prosecution has pointed out to the court, mr. cohen is no hero. paul mand afort, who did not fare much better, manafort told multiple discernible lies, not instances of mere memory lapses. i'm quoting here. the evidence demonstration that he had contact with administration officials, and way still in contact with officials this year. i want you to respond to what was said there. >> it is incredible. it's unprecedented and very

dramatic, but i think he's being a little glib. the campaign fans manual clearly says you have tore willful. that's not the standard for most criminal statutes. so i don't think it's accurate to say they're accusing donald trump of a crime. he's clearly implicated, but his defense might be, hey, i didn't know these payments were illegal or i was advised by a lawyer that these payments were okay. but you look at the whole nature of the scheme, these payments were covered up. he the submitted bog gus bills for legal fees. when donald trump was asked about these payments, he denied knowing anything about them. so prosecutors would say that was consciousness of guilt. so there may be a case.

stepping back as we know, doctrine says a sitting president can't be indoctrinated. i've had some legal experts ponder the question whether a sitting president could be indicted and that placed under seal until he leaves office. no doubt this is a serious matter. what we had here was prosecutors for the first time pointing the finger at donald trump directing these illegal payments, david. >> danny, ken staying up reading that manual until late in the morning. you're familiar with it as well. what do you make of what ken is saying there? we've heard reports about this, that the president knew about it, but to have it in open court, how does that change things? >> in the summer i think there was an argument that is campaign finance law that the government really cares about? when mickael cohen stood up and pleaded guilty, yes, they do

care. mike at cohen said the president was involved in the southern district of new york, but it's michael cohen. who knows if he's telling the truth? yesterday we got the government's position. they believe him michael cohen may be a liar, may be a criminal, but the government believes he was ordered to commit campaign finance law violations by the president. that's a very significant revelation by the government in these sentencing memoranda, which are just fascinating. they are a study in contrast between the southern district's view of michael cohen's cooperation, which i should put in air quotes, because cooperation is a term of art. the government is saying, neither with the special counsel nor with the southern district, cooperated as that term is understood, for purposes of reducing your sentence. however, he 'tried. you notice they took out the

thesaurus, and they put that in the memo to say he helped, but he didn't help quite enough. >> josh, i'm going to turn to you just for your perspective "the washington post" saying this shows the deep in this mora morass enveloping the president. . your perspective on whether this means for the administration? >> well, for the administration, perhaps it means what the president means, exonerated, good, let's keep moving on. for the people who at least comment on our program, they're much more concerned with, what do you want ups to do about this? there's a strand of people who think about impeachment. impeachment is in the instrument, it's never off the table, pup there is also plenty of american who is want to know what are we going to do about this?

the justice department standards say you can't indict a sitting i want. so what do you want us to do? it feels like the nation is waiting for the answer. that's wide when i look at they memo as a non-lawyer, and someone who works in washington, but not really of washington, the key is to wait for some clarity. we're getting closer to a resolution. can we trust the president or not? should we throw him out? or should we reelect him? people at some point will say stott telling me about the russian investigation until you can give me an answer. this is probably the clearest statements the prosecutors have made and what this means, but ultimately you still have millions of americans who are

like, wake me up when you tell me what you want me to do. >> kim, this was the first mention of the trump administration in a robert mueller filing, and in that paul manafort sentencing memo, you learn he was in touch with administration folks, or he says he was, explain that. >> first in the robert mueller filing on michael cohen, there's a detiled section about the cooperation he's provided on russian contacts. he discussed them with the trump organization, and then there's a section he told them about things that happened in the trump presidency in the white house up and through and including this year. it doesn't explain exactly what that was, but that was the first mention that robert mueller is reaching into the trump presidency. after all, hips mandate is to find out hout the russians attacked the 2016 election.

i think that's significant. with paul manafort, he was communicating with a senior administration official while under indictment and then lying about it. what business did paul manafort, accused felon, have with the trump white house? going back to the cohen thing, there's huge revelations in here about how much he was providing on russia. more than we have ever seen before. there was a phrase that talked about russia-related matters core to the premise of this election. so i think there's more to come on that score. >> adrian, i mentioned the widening aperture here. how does that change the picture for you as well, knowing that michael cohen, a representative of donald trump, then the candidate in the infancy of his candidacy, was engaging in conversations with russia about

the prospects of a meeting with vladimir putin. >> it doesn't surprise me at all, but what does sort of bother me is someone who worked almost two years on hockey hockey's campaign, and we did everything above the board. we are fog cupsed on making sure every policy she unveiled was tweaked to the finest points, making sure we had a strong field of operations, then to know that in contrast these guys were sitting at trump tower trying to conspire on how to get the moscow project up and going, how to coordinate with the russians on the possibility of collusion of the election. the more you see this, you see such a stark contrast between how they ran the campaigns and the motivations. >> lisa, help us understand how these will be used.

how will the judge make a decision based on what's read here? >> the judge is not required to follow the recommendation, but more likely than not, he will take them into strong account and follow them. obviously cohen's defense has claimed he did what he could. he has lots of friends and neighbors attesting to his honesty. what prosecutors said they were essentially faked on the. when he dealt with reporters, enemy, he was a harsh guy trying to cover for himself. he deserving substantial prison time in part for deterrence and in part deterrence for other people for trying to find these other allegations. ken, thank you for joining us. back to the cot there. still ahead, the benefits and drawbacks of flipping on president trump. who played his or her hand right?

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welcome back to "up." if you take a look behind me, you'll see that president trump is tweeting about the russia investigation these days. there have been almost a dozen tweets in the last two days, coming as two former insiders have turned on the president. in a new op-ed in "los angeles

times", harry litman, who will be with us tomorrow, are saying this is a primer on the practice of flipping witnesses. we know that michael cohen did not have a standard cooperation agreement. for those of us who play lawyers on tv and don't exactly know the distinction, explain it to us. >> it was a cooperation agreement -- if you read the memoranda, it's really a study in how much cooperation the government considerati government considers it cooperation. they're debriefing the witness and if it is of value to them, they will have him plead guilty as soon as possible, but hold off his sentencing, so they can hang it over his head like a sworn in case he goes south on the witness stand.

if he cooperates -- this is what defense attorneys do. we say this person made a deal with the government. the government knows he's a criminal, he's a liar, but they're working hand in hand with him to get this evidence, and this guy will do anything he can to save his skin. at the end of that, if the government likes what they hear, he will file a 1-k letter. it's that's a lot of legalese, it's the biggest downward factor in a sentence. so for defense attorneys it's the holy grade, it's precious, when you consider 90% of federal cases end in guilty pleas, you realize this is something that every defense attorney has to be able to negotiate. once you have a client who is cooperating, it's your job to ferry them through the process and make sure they give them

everything the government wants, because if they don't, they will rescind that agreement, and they may not offer you the sentencing agreement. that's why we see the government saying he helped us, but this is not a cooperation situation. >> adrian, what harry does so well in that piece is looks at mike at flynn on one hand, paul manafort on the other. he wrote -- what distinguishes flynn is the nature of his cooperation with the special counsel, prompt, detailed, unfettered. how did you see that contrast this week? >> a very stark contrast. if you're somebody like michael flynn, i think he's concerned about his son being locked away for a long time, but we were just talking about this, you don't lie to the special counsel.

you don't lie to the u.s. attorney. you just don't do that. so michael cohen is now seeing the repercussions of what happens when you do. he may be locked away for a much longer time. paul manafort we know was texting people in the administration as he was talking to prosecutors. so it's unbelievable i don't want to sit here and make a prediction, but i actually initial lid would have thought somebody like michael flynn might have been you know, more apt to not cooperating, and paul man at fort, given how much he's been working in this field, might have been the one more keen to operate. but the fact that these guys are lying is just ridiculous. to that point, you look at that sentencing filing about michael flynn, and so much is

made about his service and redemption. harry spoke about that, the ability for someone to come forward early, to show that he req no nices his actions were false and he's trying to req fit them. >> the read the litman piece, too, and it's interesting the way he paints these three people and makes me wonder. he writes manafort turned out to be both useless as a witness and inequitious. he is clinging to the astounding extent of funneling information to the trump camp when he was supposed to be operating. to me i wonder if there's a democratic strategist in washington saying our strategy is saying, do you see the kind

of people he associates himself with? as opposed to this person who has a little baggage, but you judge a man by the company he keeps. the ultimate option, as i said earlier for people watching and going, what do we do? impeachment seems like a viable path, and i'm starting to wonder whether all of these documents will have more of a political impact than a legal impact, particularly because, even if you said you wanted to do something with donald trump, you would have to wait until he's out of office. >> we made it clear that the litany of people working for trump's campaign and the people he was surruineding himself with had a litany of ethical problems. he still won the election,

whatever. >> yada yada. >> the pressure is on for the democrats in particular to bring up proceedings, but the votes are not there in the senate. this is where you get into a dangerous path. the question is, what now, right? we have to see what the mueller investigation comes out with. we know that yesterday could have been the big moment. we might see what mueller comes out with in the end. it may not be bigger than what we saw yesterday. yesterday was a big deal. furthermore, the big question also becomes does this impede or impact the views of trump's 35% of voters who are solidly with him, the ones head said if i stood in the street and i shot somebody, i would still have supporters. people may not realize what a big deal yesterday was, the fact that a sitting president of the

united states ordered the -- was involved in the way he was involved yesterday. so the bottom line is we'll see how it plays out, but i think democratic candidates have to be careful. >> or if i may suggest, that a candidate committed a crime to become the sitting president. >> we can add to another tweet -- after two years and millions of pages and cost of over 30 million, no collusion. something that perhaps resonates with the 35% that backs the president. coming up, ahn exclusive club of unqualified officials. >> the third agency of government. i would do away with education, the, um -- commerce, and let's see -- i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. why didn't you book your family vacation

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firefighters and rescue workers especially don't like people down there. >> police are investigating what killed two people. >> held on and stored by a

private company. do you feel better or worse? >> there's hope for news anchors like me yet. that was hoyter nauert. people say she's unqualified for the role, one she has no policymaking experience, and two, some of her career has been as a reporter for fox news. he also sit nounced william barr replacing jeff sessions, and john kelly is expect to do resign any day now, joining a list of cabinet members who have been forced out, quit or resigned. the. adrian a lot has been made who has represented you, most

recently samantha powell, has significant international experience. there's madeleine albright, susan rice, et cetera, et cetera. are you giving her the benefit of the doubt in this position? >> i'm not going to, actually. i know it may seem surprising. there is a big difference between being -- leading the podium at the state department and then going on to serve as the united states' face at the u.n. there's also qualified people that trump was looking at, including kay bailey hutchison, a nato representative right now. this is more on the lines of mike pompeo making a power play here. i think he wants control over this, wants more control, he's expanding his empire. he and trump as we know, seems

to be one of the few administration officials that donald trump still respects and still likes, and hasn't publicly disparaged, so i think this is more along the lines of a power play for him. >> i want to put up on the wall some of the names from the administration that has had problems with this experience problem. ronny jackson, withdrew his name. ben carson, of course, who heads up the department of house and urban development. no experience? welfare, no experience in housing policy before he took that job. rick perry, still in his job as the secretary of in, he was the governor of texas, and lest we forget, was on "dancing with the stars." >> betsy devos, no teaches experience, and then we have

heather nauert as well. geoff, the issue of experience, geoff, help us understand that. the president says he wants to change things. why is he going for folks who might not be the most qualified, at least on paper. >> reporter: if you talk about the lack of experience, you know who else lacked experience when they got a top job? donald trump. he's the first president to never have government or military experience when elected to office. we've seen he picks people based on whether or not he likes them or whether or not he fit the part, as he says. so he's dismissed in certain cases all of the traditionally categories of relevant experiences. with heather nauert, this is

certainly a job, a job like ambassador, will shift based on the world view, and in this case the person who happens to occupy the job. we know donald trump sees little use for multinational organizations like the u.n. we also now heather has a relatively thin resume that if confirmed, she's eventually have. that's one of the reasons why this is a sub-cabinet position. adrian got it right. the other reason this accounts for this is this is certainly a power play on the part of secretary of state and john bolt bolton, who continue to want to state policy strike from the white house and not have it come from the u.n. s. does this tell you more broadly about the trajectory of the administration?

>> i think it's a piece. geoff is right in his assessment of the way that the president has picked people who represent him. i'm glad he made the point about it being a subcabinet position, where she will ostensibly be america's spokesperson to the united nations. indeed a number of the people you put here on the world's best flat screen make a lot of sense. remember what donald trump promised to do as president. he promised to come in and shake up washington, and instead his appeal with many of the people who voted for him, is the fact he had no experience. he wasn't part of the swamp he wanted to drain. so for someone like rick perry, indeed said he wanted to abolish the department of energy, so succeed a nuclear scientist makes perfect sense for this administration. you push back a bit with regard

to the resume, because it's more than resume that the american people look for in leadership. if you believe that the kind of america donald trump wants to convey is the america up to live in, someone like heather nauert, ben carson, rick perfectly make perfect sense. >> we learned about who the president wants to be the next attorney general as well. this seems a bit outside the norm, he's going back to an attorney general when george h.w. bush was president of the united states. what does this pick say to you? >> i think that sound you hear is career justice officials breathing a sigh of relief, that finally the professional will be a person they report to. no question that barr has the requisite credentials. he's done the job before,

private practice, and public service. the big question is the el j joe -- elliott richardson question. they were colleagues years ago. they have a professional relation-, but on a qualification scale, he's highly qualified. >> that question will come up at least once, and probably by each democratic senator on the judiciary committee. >> year sense? >> isn't it fascinating, some of these picks are so trumpian. when you look at his supreme court sgrjustices, you may not agree, but they've been qualified at least academically, professional, maybe not in other ways, but you have barr, who

comes credentialed. he's pedigrees, and then he tries to appoint his personal doctor to head the v.a. it seems like he sometimes he listens to advisers, and then other times, he's just picking whoever he seems to like on tov. geoff bennett, thank you very much. i commend that piece to you on msn msnbc.com on experience. and reading between the lines, lines, the shoes that did not drop, and who could be next on the chopping block whether it comes to indictments. ges. that's why this is the view for every other full-size pickup. and this year, it's déjà vu all over again. 'cuz only the ford f-150 gives you best-in-class torque, best-in-class payload . . . and you got it, baby . . . best-in-class towing. this is the big dog! this is the ford f-150. it doesn't just raise the bar, pal. it is the bar. and now, you can get a ford f-150 with zero percent

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welcome back. piece by piece, filing by feeling, we learn more about the russia investigation, and there's still a lot we don't know 19 months in. roger stone and jerome corsi continue to signal that they believe they are next. >> do you think donald trump jr. lied to your committee? >> i believe he did. >> about? >> i don't really want to go into it at this point, but i believe there's at least two occasions when he lied to the committee. there's been this chorus over the last couple weeks. roger stone was quoted in a few

articles about the filings handed up yesterday. your reaction that they're not the focus of what we have seen. we have yet to see an indictment from either of them. >> that's right. that could mean they're amassing evidence against those individuals, or it might mean they may never get indicted. we really don't know, bud if you are asking what's next, the all-important question the what's next? they're going to continue to look at that russian connection, but for today, whate what we know is the government believes there is some russian connection between the trump business dealings in russia, and the fact they must have needed russian government approval to engage in this business. that appears to be their theory going forward. but as always, it's very opaque. we don't know what the mueller team is doing until they file

these speaking type documents or indictments that give us an indirect status report. >> if you excuse me, i need to -- >> are these gluting free? >> i can't vouch for that. >> take a bite. also opaque. >> whine danny is dining -- >> read between the lines, what did that tell us about the case itself? >> flynn is giving them information that the government believes is sensitive enough to protect from public view. what we are all hoping for is the road map the mueller report would provide. whether or not there's impeachment, there for sure will be the report. and whether or not it's made public is up to the attorney general. it can't be whitaker.

it may be barr, and i'm curious about whether we'll have the opportunity to see in whole or in part the conclusions of this investigation. there's this piece by marcie wheeler in "the washington post," saying what's most important is all these filings. we're getting a picture, each of these tells us the focus of this investigation. do you agree with that? >> i do. i do. it's the ultimate screenplay for a movie. unfortunately this is reality. the team has masterful at putting this together, and masterful at keeping everybody tight-lipped. we know that mike flynn, we know that information was redacted, because mike flynn is cooperating. this is something that robert mueller did not feel was should be let out to the public, but it will be interesting the next few

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welcome back. lisa, in addition to being a legal analyst, flag for us what you brought. this is an abundant plate today. >> and several of these items are items i home baked for you. the not necessarily gluten free. >> david, i have here a halls

that i got from -- and i don't want the to be, you know, shown up, so i am going to contribute my halls. >> how thoughtful of you. >> if anyone is feeling stuffy or likes menthol, by all means. u.s. markets tumbling more than 5% this week wiping out any gains of the past year. president trump continues to indicate everything is just fine, tweeting friday, china talks are going very well. but the markets are feeling skeptical. compounding this is a senior the telecom executive was arrested in canada at the behest of the united states. joshua, i'm going to start with you and get your perception of how all of this is proceeding. this all goes back to that dinner between president trump and president xi sitting down a week ago. there is still a lot we don't know.

>> there are a lot of gaps. somebody find that halls. also, we heard from robert leitheiser, the u.s. trade representative, he spoke about how that's going, says that the administration is willing to let that carry on as long as it has to, but he seems confident that a deal can be maybe. maybe not before the end of this 90-day cease-fire. this feels like one of those moments that has the potential to be very sequential. the president could be telling the truth in that the talks are going well. that could be true. the difference is when the action is going to come. there have been reports about investors getting nervous because their gains have been wiped out for the year for the major indices. add to that this trade war, this thing with huawei, add to that opec deciding to cut oil production to keep gas prices -- >> 1 to 2 million barrels a day. >> to keep fuel prices from falling further. some of the folks that we've talked to on our program,

including an eighth again ragz soybean farmer, eighth generation, have said they want to stay in this business. they take great pride in feeding the american people. they just don't know how long they can hold out. you are talk approximating about farmers talking about year to year profits dropping 80% to 90% and they're holding on by their fingernails like, okay, mr. president, i believe the talks are going well. so there may be a longer diplomatic solution to this. let's hope. what remains to be articulated is what we're going to do in the interim to avoid casualty necessary this trade war. >> and the president sees the economy and the stock market as the same thing. there was a fascinating piece about my colleague yesterday, president trump has been asking his advisers if they think the tariffs he's levied against china are causing the markets unrest over the past two months. so at least he's reckoning with this. lisa, the cfo of huwei in canada

at the airport picked up by canadian authorities at the behes t behest of the u.s. government. several senior advisers to the president say trade talks continue separate from this. >> this arrest was months in the making. this was an executive who wasn't going to be in the united states so they waited forren vancouver. there's an extradition agreement. it may take months before she even make it to the u.s. if she does at all. the arrest was about iran sanctions and the claim is that this company was violating those sanctions. but underlying it all is this larger sense of concern about china, about technology and about espionage. i am hard pressed to see how that can go forward. there's nothing wrong with it. the justice department can and is taking an aggressive stance. but where is the macro policy? how does this fit in to trade policy and where are the reassurances to businesses that there is a plan in place, that there's a coherent, maybe even global attempt to work with

china, to cabin some of these impulses. >> indeed, bigger than trade. my thanks to you all for joining us this hour. coming up on "up," two filings, two different pictures of michael cohen. plus, rex tillerson reportedly referred to him as a moron. donald trump now calling him dumb as a rock. when i first came to ocean bay, what i saw was despair. i knew something had to be done. hurricane sandy really woke people up, to showing that we need to invest in this community. i knew having the right partner we could turn this place around. it was only one bank that could finance a project this difficult and this large, and that was citi. preserving affordable housing preserves communities.

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welcome back to "up." let's start with what the new york post is calling president trump's no good, very bad day. president trump launched a preemptive strike against robert mueller. in quick succession, there were seven tweets attacking the special counsel's investigation. his instincts were right. these were the headlines. prosecutors say then candidate trump directed cohen to commit two felonies and mueller row cohen provided useful intel. the former trump attorney tried to set up a meeting between president putin and candidate trump. the allegations and revelations were so