i am a techie dad.n. i believe the best technology should feel effortless. like magic. at comcast, it's my job to develop, apps and tools

that simplify your experience. my name is mike, i'm in product development at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. good day, everyone. here's what's happening just moments ago. rudy giuliani dismissing new revelation from the mueller investigation. giuliani tells msnbc news -- and we may hear from the president any moment as he heads to the army/navy game. meanwhile, new york ferment prosecutors apt to be implicating him. it is center of this allegations, his former lawyer, michael cohen, a new court

filing says he acted in the direction of mr. trump. now, in response the president tweeted last night that he's totally clear. just a few hours ago he again claimed there was no collusion, and sarah sanders also dismissing the revelations. court filings have uncovered what happened to be the earliest contact with russia. the memo says that cohen was in contact back in 2015 about a russian who offered political synergy. cohen did not take him up on the offer. and five major lies, just how untruthful paul manafort was to the mueller investigation. plus he lied about his contacts with a longtime associate linked to russian intelligence services, what does this all mean for the trump presidency?

steve co hen offers this assessment. >> i think you'll find some republicans that will save their skid. that's what happened in watergate. they realized there was a cancer on the presidency. there's a cancer on the presidency now. we have a lot to dissect now. we have our panel of reporters and analysts. we'll begin with geoff bennett. he's in philadelphia, where the president is headed for the army/navy game. what can you actual es about these new filings? >> reporter: ever since these court filings dropped, president trump has taken to twitter multiple times to make the following argument. one, that he did nothing wrong, but two the investigation hasn't produced any results. both arguments are entirely off the mark. federal prosecutors are saying for the first time that michael cohen it is direction of

president trump made these two illegality payments and they were a violation of campaign finance rules to stormy daniels and to character karen mcdual -. he said this is collusion illusi illusion. at this late date, after after we have gone through, millions spent, there is nothing impeachable here, time for the witch-hunt to end. and our colleagues spoke to rudy giuliani earlier. he told them, when pressed on this issue, based that the federal prosecutors have implicationed president trump, rudy giuliani told them -- you have to believe michael cohen, who believes michael cohen? that certainly is the defense that really in concert with the white house, sarah sanders put

out a statement saying that the filedings revealed nothing of value that we didn't already know. so the position that the white house is taking is that the president did not wrong and the investigation has not yet produced results, though the court filings tell a different story, alex. >> thank you, geoff. the president is scheduled to depart in a moment, and we're waiting to see if they takes any questions. geoff, thank up. pete williams, i'm sure you've looked over the notes sent out by our colleagues. what is your take of what giuliani had to say? and denying that there's anything in these court documents. >> well, if you go back to august when michael cohen pleaded guilty, that's when he first said that president trump

directed him to make these hush money payments. this is consistent with what he said. so to some extent giuliani is correct, this allegations becomes correct the more you believe michael cohen, but the court documents say there were three people, cohen, the president and the third person, the publishers of "the national enquirer." we don't know how much cooperation he's giving, but there is a third person there, and i would be shocked if the southern district or the mueller people haven't talked to him. so there could be corroborating evidence. the president -- oops, part me -- the significance is another question. the position is clearly not going to be indicted they're bound by rules that say you can't indict a sitting president, so the question is how important is it politically?

that's the important impeach so conduct before they came into office? that's an unsettled question, but i think at this point it's a revelation that this new information is much more important politically than in terms of a potential indictment. >> the president has been very specific as well, maintaining there's no collusion. that's the terminology he uses, is he right in saying that based on yesterday's documents? >> well, yesterday's documents don't allege new collusion to influence the campaign by trump campaign officials. what they do tell us is that michael cohen, as early as november of 2015 was contacted by somebody who claimed to be a big shot in russia, who said, look, i can provide you political help, we can have

synergy. wouldn't it be great if trump met with putin. cohen said he never followed up on that, because he was pursuing building a trump hotel in moscow. it's clear that the russians were clearly reaching out to the try to influence the campaign. it's agnostic on the question of whether the people in the campaign were interested in trying to pursue that and whether they helped the russians do that. it really doesn't answer the question. it doesn't take us any further there. >> again, the president is saying there's no collusion. is that true in a snapshot at this moment? is there anything in these documents that suggest or indicates there never would be any collusion because the investigation has been completed

with regard to collusion. as you said before, when you overturn another stone, you have to go down that path. >> the simple question to that is, no, it's not over yet. >> pete, thank you, as always. mike isikoff and abigail tracy, with a welcome to you both. i want the biggest takeaway, michael, you first. >> clearly the assertion by the southern district that michael cohen committed two felonies at the direction of the president has got to be the headline there, but i agree with pete. there are real questions about where to take this from that point. david pecker is the third witness to this. he was the publishers of the "national enquirer." i think he can corroborate that

michael cohen made those payments and with the knowledge and at the direction of the president, but it doesn't get you to the question of, what was in the president's head at the time? was he making these payments, because he wanted to conceal an affair he had ten years ago with stormy daniels from his wife? or was he making these payments because he wanted to influence the election? clearly the timing would suggests latter, but to make a criminal kay, you would have to have a direction witness. there, you know, you get into the problem of michael cohen being the chief witness, and with the baggage he's got, the prosecutors say they still don't believe michael cohen has been forth coming. that makes him a rather tainted

witness. again there's been the further problem of standard doj policy is you can't indict a sitting president. so while this is provocative and serious, to have that assertion in a justice department memo, there's still a lot of questions about how far it can go. abigail, biggest headline from your perspective is? >> i echo michael on that point. obviously what we saw yesterday was prosecutors said that michael cohen committed a felony at the direct of the i want. we don't know if the president shared the same motivation as michael cohen, which was to influence the election, which is cry wall. a case with john edwards, he was driven possibly by a desire to hide an affair by his wife. so we're operating in that same gray area and this question of intent. i think we go back to the idea

of doj policy, and what he has working to his greatest advantage is his presidential status. but that doesn't necessarily mean if congress were to pursue impeachment charges we wouldn't see some of this brought up. michael, you broke the month kay lewinsky story, and back then the background was sex. how does that compare with what the president is facing right now? >> well, look, jerry nadler, who was then a member of the house judiciary committee and will soon be its chairman was quite eloquent during the lewinsky matter, that concealing a sexual affair does not rise to the level of an impeachable offense.

so i think it will be difficult for jerry nadler to commence an impeachment hearing before judiciary on this matter alone. by the way, just think of what a circus that would be. who would be your star witnesses? stormy daniels? the porn star? karen mcdougal? david peck? it's not the kind of impeachment hearing -- >> but is this about campaign finance reforms? >> yes, this is about violations of the law, but, you know, the core conduct at issue is a 10-year-old consensual sexual liaison. you know, that doesn't mean it can't become part of a broader impeachment proceeding that does get into some of the more

serious matters involving russia i'm just saying this alone will not become the basis for an impeachment proceeding. >> do you envision any scenario where republicans wholesale abandon the president? >> i think what you're looking at now is there isn't an appetite, but to michael's point, i don't think this issue alone would be something to prompt impeachment proceedings, ownership even month democrats. one of the things we have to keep at the front of our minds is this felony charge as presented yesterday, isn't happening in a vacuum. obviously the president filled out that questionnaire under oath. there have been a few questions around whether he's been hinting at pardoning for some of the individuals ensnared in this, and i think we have to take a step back and realize none of

this is happening in a vacuum, and in some cases the -- what we have to look at is where we are in a couple months or weeks, and what this broader picture looks like and whether that does get republicans over the line on some of this. for instance, you look at nixon's impeachment proceedings, and dangling pardons was something mentioned in there. so we have to take a step back and wait for the whole picture to come into focus. >> what kind of message does mulers send with friday's actions there, those filings? >> look, i mean, we are at a point where i think mueller has to make some very tough decisions as to whether things go from here. we go know and as i mentioned in the piece, there's one important outstanding matter, and that's the roger stone and jerome corsi, and whether they have

lied about their contacts with wikileaks and perhaps others during the 2016 election. i would have thought it would have been wrap up by now, but it is still -- one key witness was before the -- was being questioned by mueller's prosecutors as recently as this week. so that's one matter that's still ongoing. look, we learned significant new information last week that's reaffirmed this week about the discussions michael cohen had with the kremlin himself. about this trump tower moscow project during the campaign, went on much longer than we had known before, and something that the president was clearly not fort coming and misled the people about. i scoured those filings

yesterday as close as anybody, and i'm still not clear whether mueller has another case to bring on the core question of coordinat coordinaureoordination or collu. we have a readout of what the president did say. it wasn't on camera there, but he did say, big news, chief of staff john kelly will be leaving at the end of the year. he says he's a great guy and he will announce over the next day or two the details there, but that he is leaving at the end of the year. he appreciates his service. we'll get the tape of the president speaking there while we're in a commercial break. we're obviously watching air force one, it will be taking off for philadelphia shortly. we'll be right back, everyone. ♪

♪ the united states postal service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ with one notable exception. ♪ a lot will happen in your life. wrinkles just won't. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair's derm-proven retinol works so fast, it takes only one week to reveal younger looking skin. neutrogena® and then, more jobs robegan to appear.. what started with one job spread all around.

because each job in energy creates many more in this town. there's brushing...and there's oral-b power brushing. oral-b just cleans better. even my hygienist said going electric could lead to way cleaner teeth. and unlike sonicare, oral-b is the first electric toothbrush brand accepted by the ada. oral-b. brush like a pro. and just like you, the further into winter we go, the heavier i get. and while your pants struggle to support the heavier you, your roof struggles to support the heavier me. crash! and your cut-rate insurance might not pay for this. so get allstate, you could save money and be better protected from mayhem like me. mayhem is everywhere. so get an allstate agent. are you in good hands?

this big news from the president as he made a statement leaving the white house heading to philadelphia for the army/navy game. he made the statement that john kelly will be leaving by the end of the year, says he's a great guy, he will announce the details over the next day or two, but then john is leaving at the end of the year and he appreciates his service. we'll have the tape playback

momentarily as soon as we get it here. i've asked michael isikoff and abigail to stick around. we're joined by samuel buehl, and barry burk, the cochairman of the he litigation department at cramer/levin. abigail, i know you have reported on this the very tenuous situation between the president and john kelly. >> no surprise here. you've heard about they heightened tensions, even reaching a point where there's so little of a working relationship left. so i think this is a long time coming, especially when we look at the reports that have come out over last we're, this timing isn't all that surprising. i think everybody expected this

decisi decision. i think one of the interesting aspects is he -- an interesting bit to sort of take into this broader context of what we're seeing today with john kelly, that he did speak with the mueller investigation. let's bring in kelly o'donnell to speak to what we heard from the president. again, this is not shocking news in and of itself. this has been expected for some time. you have to wonder what it means. >> reporter: well, we were gathered on the south lawn to see if the president would take questions, and he voluntary said john kelly would be leaving at the end of the year. he would select an interim chief of staff.

he qualified that by saying the person who would replace him would likely be on an interim basis, but he also talked about john kelly being with hem for two years, first as senior of homeland security, and now as chief of staff since july 31st of last year. the president had only praise for him. in part today, of course, the army/navy game where he said he would be flipping the coin and saluting both teams. >> kelly, we're going to interrupt you. let's roll the tape. >> usually give quite a bit of notice for a lot of reasons. mark is a great gentleman, a great patriot, a great soldier. i look forward to that. on the mueller situation, we're very happy with what we are reading, because there was no collusion whatsoever. there never has been. the last thing i want is help from russia on a campaign. usual ask hillary clinton about

russia, because she financed the fake dossier, which i understand they tried to get some information and helping from russia. a very one-sided situation, but i think -- >> hmm, okay. that tape clearly freezing up there. we didn't hear anything about john kelly at that point, but we're playing what we have there. michael, i want your interpretation of this news about john kellry. again, we can confirm the president said that, unfortunately the tape froze. >> what will be the stature and authority that that person will have. clearly being a chief of staff in a trump white house is a challenging position to say the least he tried to keep him from

these tweet storms. >> now i think we have a proper version. >> i know both teams will do great. general mark millie, as you know, was just appointed the head of the joint chiefs of staff, to be determined date, a bit later in the year. they usually give a lot of notice for a lot of reasons. mark millie is a great gentleman, a great soldier, a great gentleman. on the mueller situation we're very happy with what we are reading, because there was no collusion whatsoever the last thing i want is help from russia on a campaign. you should ask hillary clinton about russia, because she financed the fake dossier, which i understand they tried to get some information and help from russia, but you ought to ask them about that. very one-sided situation, but i think it's turning around nicely, but as far as the report that we see, according to

everybodyivity spoken to -- i have not read it -- there's absolutely no collusion, which is very important. [ inaudible ] >> yeah, go ahead. no, no, no. [ inaudible ] >> say it? >> reporter: does john kelly still have a job here? >> john kellie -- i don't know if i can say retiring. he's a great guy. john kelly will be leaving at the end of the year. we will announce who will be taking john's place, it might be on an interim basis. john will be leaving at the end of the year. he's been with me almost two years now, as you know, between the two positions. we'll probably see him in a little while, but john kelly --

are you ready? -- john kelly will be leaves at the end of the year. i appreciate his service very much. thank you. thank you all. okay. reaction once again? we're going to go straight to kelly o'donnell for the reaction, but as we were saying, it's been a challenging relationship between the president and his chief of staff throughout. so no surprise. the point is, and michael brought up who the replacement will be. >> a couple things are surprising. we have talked about the turbulent relationship, the different tenure for many, many many months. that's not the surprise. what is a surprise is the president would choose to announce it himself in the way he did. we had not yet been able to proempt him with a question. he wanted to announce it. it's been reported that the end was near. one of the things we had been learning is jane kelly is a retired four-star general.

the president did not want to be in a position of firing him. so you heard the comment perhaps he's retiring. nick ayers is currently the chief the staff to vice president mike pence, has a longtime figure in republican politics, worked on some big gubernatorial campaigns. he is one person who has gotten to know primarily the president through the relationship of trump and pence, but also the extended sort of network inside the trump family, namely means jared kushner and ivanka trump. nick has been able to go back and forth pretty seamlessly. that's raised his profile. will he be the choice? we don't yet know. there's also been discussions that mick mulvaney, the director of budget and management for the president is some name that's been circulated as well.

what will be a huge choice for anyone involved in this process is, is it the job that they think it is? i think even john kelly on reflection would think it's not what he thought it might have been. the chief of staff is in charge of the executive office and sort of the great gatekeeper of the president. this president operates differently. what role will it be? what authority will it have? one thing that john kellry tried to institute was a firm grip on the oval office door, eto the extent of his daughter and son-in-law. that's been part of what we have seen. also our colleagues at nbc news reported tensions between john kelly and the first lady, so that certainly was not going to bode well. these are big headlines. in addition the president announcing this himself, i asked the question, did he direct

michael cohen to commit any violations of law? and he said no, no. of course the documents lay out clearly that in the area of campaign finance, individual-1, who is believed to be president trump, was directing and aiding cohen in the payments to those women who claimed to have sexual encounters with the president. >> which sets up my question perfectly, samuel, the president says no collusion whatsoever. you hearty him say that. do you agree that that is what is reflected in the court foolition by robert mueller yesterday? >> not really, alex. first of all we've been using this wort all along. everybody knows this is not a legal term. this is the bar that the president has tried to set for what means either success or failure for the mueller investigation. the other thing he does, he's on his way to a football game,

trying to constantly declare the game is over. this puzzle is coming together. pieces came into places yesterday. they're very significant. we're continuing to learn more and more about a campaign that was run, hiding very detailed and important information from the american people, including campaign finance violations, and this is not good news foss president. what they are probably pleased about is the government, mueller's folks are having trouble with their cooperating witnesses. they've got manafort who is not usable, cohen is probably not usable as a trial, because he's not willing to fess up to his own wrongdoing and genuinely cooperate, but as everyone has been saying, we're not talking about a trial. we're ultimately talking about congressional hears, and i don't see why the democrats wouldn't

as quickly as possible convene a hearing where they call michael cohen as a win, bring in the documents, call in "the national enquirer" guy and begin to lay this out. you see whether people begin to move on this question. >> barry burk in the he -- there's no proof of collusion. that does not mean that proof of collusion may not turn up down the road in the investigation? >> i don't agree with that. i think there has been -- yesterday filings showed even more evidence in the three queries of investigation, including collusion. what we saw was michael cohen laying out his dealings with russia on commercial matters with el into the campaign. at the same time we know that the 35 individuals and companies

that were already indicted for trying to influence the election were doing so. information was beg shared with the campaign. the president himself shortly after the trump tower meeting was making a speech that he was going to have damning evidence. it all starts painting a picture. also when you look at the fact that cohen said yesterday that he was in conversations with the administration people and others had helped him with his statements that the trump tower deem, communications with russia, ended in january 2016, which was obviously false? in addition, the president would have known those statements, both that congress in congress and publicly were were false. you see evidence of collusion, contacts with russia, both political, commercially as well as the obvious efforts to try to impact the election, but also cover-up steps. as we all know, often the

cover-up tells more about intent than anything. >> so you wrote in "new york times," it was an op-ed, barry, is this the beginning of the end for trump? >> i believe that question is raised by the filings, which directly implicated the president, and possibly other crimes. in the campaign finance area, it all but called the president unindicted co-conspirators. and remember again, the allegation was that the trump organization disguised them as retainer agreements. presumably that was done not to hide it from the president's wife, but because there was knowledge of the filing of the compare laws. more than that, there was also a lot of information about the collusion and the discussions with russia. there was also discussions about russia, that he was having

discussions after he was indi indicted, nonwas he indicted a second time, but he knew his campaign director and subordinate mr. gates was cooperating. if those involved any hind of a pardon, in exchange for manafort protecting the president, that further obstructs the investigation. there's also the issue of whether or not there could have been foreign bribes. we learned yet that mr. cohen was told the key to the trump tower building was getting the president putin's support. if there was reports of a promise of a 50 million penthouse to president putin, that's as clear as a foreign practice act violation as there could be. when you look at all of that, it seems that the areas of exposure have only grown. as a criminal defense lawyer, that spells trouble for anyone on the target or subject end of that. >> we have michael isikoff here,

and as you listen to all that's been said by these attorneys as well, does this is sync up with you and do you believe this is potentially the beginning of the end for the president? >> i couldn't great with professor buehl more that congress needs to step up to the plate here. it is really striking to me that here we are, you know, nearly two years into this and we have all they open-ended questioning about what went on during the 2016 campaign. congress has abdicated to robert mueller let's let mueller resolve all of this, and we'll wait indefinitely. but as i pointed out before, when you real closely these mueller filings, it's not clear

we're going to get answers to a lot of the questions being posed here, but congress can. they can call michael cohen to testify. they can call manafort to testify. they can call flynn to testify. there's nothing to stop them at this point. mueller might object and they could say sorry, we have an obligation to the american people to air awful facts here and, um, it's time that they should do so. >> last question to abigail. do you have any sense that the incoming congress has an appetite to do exactly what michael is calling for? >> absolutely. in the house the democrats will have the majority and i've spoken to several on the hill who say they do sbenl to overturn some of these rocks. some of those includes issuing subpoenas to individuals, but also releasing transcripts of

testimonies to roberts mueller, which could lead to potential other questions of perjury, but there definitely is an appetite among democrats in the house. obviously however in the senate we're in the same situation, of course, but i would like to note that the senate intelligence committee has operated in a much more -- fashion to date. thank you all for weighing in. kellie o'donnell, michael isikoff, abigail, barry burk and all of you. we had sam nunberg and cross over into his position. so we'll come back with you right after the break, and get your take on all of this. stay with us, everybody. introducing fidelity stock and bond index funds

with lower expense ratios than comparable vanguard funds. and we're now offering zero expense ratio index funds. that's value you'll only find at fidelity. ♪ one thing leads another that's value you'll only find at fidelity. if your adventure... ...keeps turning into unexpected bathroom trips... ...you may have overactive bladder, or oab. ohhhh...enough already! we need to see a doctor. ask your doctor about myrbetriq® (mirabegron). it treats oab symptoms of urgency, frequency, and leakage. it's the first and only oab treatment in its class. myrbetriq may increase blood pressure. tell your doctor right away if you have trouble emptying your bladder

or have a weak urine stream. myrbetriq may cause serious allergic reactions... ...like swelling of the face, lips, throat or tongue, or trouble breathing. if experienced, stop taking and tell your doctor right away. myrbetriq may interact with other medicines. tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems. common side effects include increased blood pressure, common cold or flu symptoms,... ...sinus irritation, dry mouth, urinary tract infection, bladder inflammation,... ...back or joint pain, constipation, dizziness, and headache. need some help managing your oab symptoms along the way? ask your doctor if myrbetriq is right for you, and visit myrbetriq.com to learn more. here at snowfest... for your worst sore throat pain, try new vicks vapocool drops. it's not candy. it's powerful relief. ♪ ahhhhhhhhhhhh vaporize sore throat pain with new vicks vapocool drops. ♪ the kenya tea development agency

is an organization that is owned by tea farmers. every week we sell this tea, we get paid in multiple accounts. we were looking for a bank to provide a safe and efficient technology platform to pay our farmers. citi was the only one that was able to ensure that this was done seamlessly. and today, at the touch of a button, all the farmers are able to get their money, pay school fees and improve their standard of living. with citi, we see a bright future for our farmers and their families. ♪

john kelly will be leaving, i don't know if i can say retires, but he's a great guy. john kelly will be leaving at the end of the year. we'll be announcing who will be taking john's place, it might be on an interim basis. john will be leaving at the end of the year.

he's been with me almost two years, as you know, between the two positions. so we're probably going to see him in a little while. >> john kelly will be leaving at the end of the year. he was previously senior of homeland security. let's bring in our guests. i've got to get all of your reaction, guys. peter, you first. your thoughts about john kelly leaving the white house? >> i think he should have left a year ago, if not more. i think he sacrificed his prestige as well as the military code of honor, so i'm glad he's leaving for his own sake, and also they arguments that people make about him, matt is, and others that they were somehow protecting the country against

president trump. that's such a terrible argument to make. i don't have great hope for the next person, either. you think this has tarnished the image of john kelly? >> absolutely. he's caved in on the issues of immigration. that was almost his entire plan of rolling it out. i think at the end of the day a distinguished service in the military has been contaminated business his action and sublimation to this donald trump presidency. >> we have to remember why it was that he was brought on in the first place. this is a general of the utmost respect and standing. he was brought in to offer a sense of reining in this president to some degree, or at least offering some control to the white house, which seemingly was out of control before he was brought in in the summer.

>> his's his own man. that doesn't mean he won't listen to advice. you have to give it to them, with an array of 16 candidates in a primary with a lot of experience and a lot of qualifications, trump rode down on an escalator and basically trounced every one of the people. he has his own strategy. he does things the way he sees it. he said, look, i feel things in my gut, therefore, this is the way i'm going to act. i feel this is the right or the wrong decision. so having general kelly in as his chief of staff, i'm sure he's going to take advice here and there, but really trump is going to do what he wants to do, so it doesn't matter who will be the next chief of staff.

it's still what trump wants and what trump wants to do. so shermichael, what kind of problem does that for the next he chief of staff. >> our expectations of john kelly did not meet they got, but going into the new year, i think going into the next presidential. i think nick ayers is instead a qualified choice. i don't know him personally, but i know a lot of friends in the political operative space, who speak highly of him. he's well regarded, and you need someone who has a great and clear political instinct. one thing we know about donald trump is that he lines to win. i think he is likely going to listen to someone like nick ayers, if he can help him

navigate. noelle is shaking her head. >> i think he's right. nick is very well respected. it's not about nick. this is about trump. trump listens to trump. you know what? there's nothing wrong with that, but trying to find a good fit for chief of staff that the president is going to listen to i think is outrageous. >> the premise of my point is that nick ayers does understand politics. and what we know throughout his historic, trump likes to win. if that means listening to someone who will give him that advantage, i think he likely will. last word to peter emerson. your thoughts on nick or anybody

else. even the name jared kushner was once bandied about as a potential chief of staff, because based on what noelle is saying, at least president would listen to, he's been proven to listen to his son-in-law over the years. >> a big issue about pence and what did he know. a theory having been in washington last week since pence and ayers were involved in the transition and know everything that went on and are vulnerable. another set of opinions believe because pence and ayers were close to trump in the campaign they understood they needed to step aside and be in the shadows to stay away from getting contaminated by what we see coming out from the special counsel and the various federal courts. i think it's up in the air. i think nick ayers could put himself in a difficult position if he's offered the chief of staff job and he takes it. >> peter shermichael and noelle, thank you very much for weighing in. it wasn't what we were scheduled to talk about.

in the meantime new details on the michael cohen sentencing memos filed by federal prosecutors in new york and the office of special counsel robert mueller. the u.s. attorney in new york is recommending, quote, a substantial prison term for michael cohen and joining me now as promised sam nunberg in the studio at msnbc. sam, look, you've known michael cohen for some time and i know you worked together during the 2016 trump campaign. what we understand to be looking at potentially between 51 and 63 months in prison. a, are you surprised by this recommendation? and how do you think he is reacting to it based on the fact that he asked for a level of leniency understanding and zero prison time? >> once again, as i've continually said, i know michael for a long time and met his family and feel bad for michael. i think possibly he should have got a job at the white house, he was loyal to the president. with that said, a criticism i've had of michael internally and

said it to the president during the campaign, we were trying to find a role for him. what is shown in these filings is that michael, once again, hurt michael. michael tried to play john dean. michael thought he was going to take down the president and he couldn't do that correctly. he, once again in the mueller filing, as you saw, he said he lied to them at first, in his first interview where he's trying to become a government witness and trying to not get a plea and then as is said in the southern district, he essentially mischaracterized or has not fully cooperated with the new york city department of finance on these tax issues which, once again, would be remiss if not mentioned they have nothing to do with donald trump. this is outside business of michael's. >> all right. you have "the new yorker" -- you're talking about the problems for michael and he's brought them on himself. "the new yorker" is writing that cohen memos are damming for trump and concludes mueller's notes and cohen's effort to engage with russia with trump's knowledge and consent, that it

occurred at a time of sustained efforts by the russian government to interfere with the u.s. elections. do you agree with that? >> what i agree with is the fact that mueller is playing a very smart game here. mueller remember, he is not, as opposed to ken starr, who was by congressional statute supposed to issue a report to congress, mueller may not be able to issue a report. he at best could issue some kind of blueprint. what he's trying to do is eat -- have his cake and eat it too and he's going to kill the president essentially by death through a thousand filings. mueller is able to put out things in a certain light. going to trump tower moscow, look, i -- michael, once again, freelanced and he would have talked to the president, i am sure, about trying to do a deal, but this deal never came to fruition. the idea that michael and felix sater were going to be these conduits to vladimir putin, it's almost nonsensical. if you know -- you just had on

michael and it's hysterical, when michael cohen wanted to reach the kgb or russians he asked maggie haberman for an e-mail address. this is a guy who didn't know how to even get into contact with the russians. with that said, it is highly problematic and mueller, as your previous witnesses are saying, witnesses -- sorry, guests, mueller is going to build a narrative. that's mueller's job. with that said the president has to respond to it. there are two ways to look at these things. i still look at them as a bunch of coincidences. i look at them as if that -- there was never any direct conspiracy because donald trump and vladimir putin never directly coordinated, as i've said before, on strategizing on what to release and when to release it. >> which michael cohen do you believe? the one that told the lies previously, that he got in trouble for telling and admitted that he told? or the michael cohen who is now

speaking allegedly the truth in the robert mueller investigation? >> i think michael's truth is something along the lines that could be construed two different ways. michael was not heavily involved with the campaign, especially towards the end that he wanted. with that said, the idea that donald trump even ever seriously considered, despite the fact that michael may have spoken to him about traveling to russia after he got the nomination, that was unfeasible. look, the republican party wanted to dump donald trump less than three weeks out of the election after the "access hollywood" tape was released. this would be the same party if donald trump traveled there, he would have been kicked off the nomination. >> can i ask you, because i'm almost out of time, how come the senate intel committee wants to talk to you in january? >> it's not again. it's the first time. >> the house, correct. >> and as previous people have said, they are acting in a much different bipartisan way and i would just tell you that i've

got in a -- wasn't a subpoena. a letter requesting certain documents, very narrow. it was specifically roger stone from the time donald trump announced through the time he swore in and any communications. i think they are trying to check their boxes. i also think, alex, they want to keep this open in light of what the house is going to do, which will be eventual impeachment of donald trump. >> always good to have you in studio. >> thank you. coming up, new reaction to the president's announcement that chief of staff john kelly will be stepping down at the end of the year and all the white house infighting over the man many observers will say could take kelly's place. atch, is this for real? yep. we match all the cash back new cardmembers earn at the end of their first year, automatically. whoo! i got my money! hard to contain yourself, isn't it? uh huh! let it go! whoo! get a dollar-for-dollar match at the end of your first year. only from discover. there's brushing...and there's oral-b power brushing. oral-b just cleans better. even my hygienist said going electric could lead to way cleaner teeth.

and unlike sonicare, oral-b is the first electric toothbrush brand accepted by the ada. oral-b. brush like a pro.

means they won't hike your rates over one mistake. see, liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges. for drivers with accident forgiveness,

liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ this is moving day with the best in-home wifi experience and millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. and this is moving day with reliable service appointments in a two-hour window so you're up and running in no time. show me decorating shows. this is staying connected with xfinity to make moving... simple. easy. awesome.

stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. we are just about to the top of the hour. up next, i'm going to hand things off to you. thank you. >> thank you so much. we have a lot going on. good afternoon. i am philip mena live at msnbc headquarters in new york. breaking news at this hour, president trump just announcing in the last hour that white house chief of staff john kelly will leave at the end of the year. we'll have more on that in a moment. collusion illusion, president trump on the defensive as big bombshells drop in the russia investigation. in court filings, implicate the president as a key figure in multiple federal investigations. this coming as we are a couple hours away from the release of the james comey memos following his meeting with the house judiciary committee on