tv Kasie DC MSNBC December 9, 2018 4:00pm-6:00pm PST
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♪ welcome to "kasie dc." i'm steve kornacki. we are live every sunday from 7:00 to 9:00 eastern. and tonight, ready individual one as court filings pile up. is the white house prepared for the special counsel and for democrats in control of congress? plus, the president tries to find his wartime consulary. nick ayers is no long or his way in. and former fbi director james comey is set to speak with nicolle wallace.
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his first interview since testifying behind closed doors in the house. we'll bring you the latest from them as soon as that conversation begins. but first, a simple question, is the president prepared for what is coming? the southern district of new york filing on michael cohen alone contains 23 references to individual 1. that, of course, president trump. roger stone tells "the new york times" it has finally dawned on the president that the inquiry is not going away. his lawyers' promises notwithstanding. he has finally figured out this is about him. the president has posted to twitter time and again saying the filings, quote, totally clear him and much more in the outside legal team says a counterreport is being prepared. but "the washington post" cites one friend of the president who says trump is angry, but he's not really worried. others say the white house is, quote, stuck in a bunker mentality and largely resigned to a plan to wing it.
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one former white house official telling the paper a war room. are you serious? they've never had one. we'll never have one. they don't know how to have one. with that, i'd like to welcome in my panel. with me on set, business and politics reporter for "the wall street journal," shelby holliday. editor of commentary magazine, john podhoritz and investigative reporter anna scheckter. also with us from tucson, arizona, msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi. and washington senior adviser for moveon.org, carekarine jean-pier jean-pierre. thank you for being here. does trump, does this white house know what it is in store for? let's just put that on the table first. what it potentially is in store for here. these explosive court filings on friday that seem to have really sort of stirred the pot when it comes to this question of investigations. two sort of different fronts here. one involving michael cohen, the
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campaign, hush money, women who could have come forward about donald trump. another potentially involving manafort, trump, russia. those questions. let me start on the first question of michael cohen and the campaign. what is it that we learned friday? what's the potential exposure for the president? >> the southern district of new york came out with, i actually think, more damning court documents on friday than even mueller's documents because they went into detail about these two hush money payments to the two women at the direction of trump. so cohen made those payments at the direction of trump but then there's another concurrent investigation led by mueller looking at russia and the russian real estate deal that cohen was pursuing well into 2016, into june 2016. and cohen lied about that to congress. he told them that deal had been wrapped up and closed up much earlier. so what mueller and the southern
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district, they both have been doing is painting this picture, setting the scene for the multiple lies that michael cohen, a very, very close ally, formerly, to president trump was telling over the course of a long period of time. and in fact, cohen was lying about the moscow project until september of this year. it was only in september that he came clean about the extent to which they wanted to pursue this russia deal. so there was a ton of news that came out of the court papers on friday. >> frank, let me ask you about the russia piece of it because this idea of what michael cohen is now saying and this idea of trump, the folks around trump pursuing a deal, a business deal in russia well into the 2016 campaign counter against what cohen had previously told congress. how does that intersect? does it intersect with this question of potential collusion with the russian government. of russian government
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interference in a presidential campaign. has that link been made through any of what we've seen in the last few days? >> absolutely. if you look at the filing by mueller and read between the lines because there is a bit of vagueness here and it's deliberate vagueness but clearly what mueller is pointing us to is that cohen cooperated on the core issue of mueller's inquiry. that's mueller's language. the core part of his inquiry. what is that? it's russian collusion. and what do we read in the filing? we see that cohen is talking about overtures from russia as early as 2015. understand that mueller would never have included that point if it was merely an overture. but rather, it's a connection that mueller has corroborated through cohen that the russians did more than just an overture. there was likely a response. then we see other connections and references where cohen is briefing family members of trump on the moscow tower project. so mueller is squarely in the
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russian collusion business right now. and i think the white house needs to buckle up because they're in for a wild ride on this issue. >> let me take it to the rest of the table here. are there republicans, are there trump defenders, folks in trump's camp who are looking at what happened friday and looking at this situation differently as a result of it? >> i think, without question, i don't know that we know exactly who they are. marco rubio, the senator from florida. i wouldn't say he's a trump intimate but has largely, you know, stopped criticizing trump. was clearly hinting at the possibility that he was very disturbed by this. i think there's -- it is important to note that the one way in which people may be getting ahead of themselves was reflected by senator rand paul this morning on "meet the press." as far as i know, he said it's not illegal to try to have
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business relations with russians. and this will be the trump defense. that is cohen can talk to anybody. his family can talk to anybody. the question only goes to whether or not vladimir putin and the russian government and russian intelligence had some sway over him, had some compromat on him that that relationship turned into something that was potentially a conspiracy or something like that. there was no evidence of that in what happened on friday. there's other really bad stuff, but that collusion/conspiracy thing is not indicated in what we saw. all we saw was the extent to which they were trying -- the trump organization was trying to play footsy with russia which meant deal with the russian government, and that's it. like, you know, until they can
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establish that the government was involved and that there was some kind of quid pro quo, the stormy daniels/cohen stuff seems to be much more damaging than the russia stuff. onge >> on that front, in the southern district of new york's filing, his offenses strike at several pillars of our society and system of government. the payment of taxes, transparent in fair elections and truthfulness before government and in business. this section refers to michael cohen, but at times it feels like maybe it was speaking beyond the president's former lawyer. andrew mccarthy writes for fox news about why trump is likely to be indicted, he says, by the manhattan u.s. attorney. he says the sentencing memo in cohen's case reads like an ode to campaign finance laws and argues in the four corners of this case, these words apply to cohen, but president trump cannot feel too comfortable upon reading them. here is the incoming chairman of the house intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff this morning. >> there's a very real prospect
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that on the day donald trump leaves office, the justice department may indict him. that he may be the first president in quite some time to face the real prospect of jail time. all the arguments they make about michael cohen, the idea that people are out walking precincts and doing what they should do in campaigns, the rich and powerful seem to live by a different set of rules. this was the argument for putting michael cohen in jail on these campaign violations. that argument was equally made with respect to individual one, the president of the united states. >> and shelby, you also had jerry nadler, the democratic chairman of the judiciary committee which would oversee any impeachment inquiry, if it were to come to that, also seeming to suggest today that what came out with michael cohen in connection to the campaign, in connection to these payments, in connection to the idea that, hey, did donald trump authorize the intentional breaking of campaign finance laws that that could be impeachable -- an impeachable offense, do you agree this is the more immediate
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political danger right now for this white house? >> it's really hard to know actually. i think it is a two-front war right now the white house is facing. but what we saw on friday largely corroborated a lot of the reporting my colleagues at the journal have done which is that donald trump played a central role in not just making the payments but organizing them and plotting them ahead of time in his meet with the national enquirer boss and talking to cohen and setting the page for these payments. i think it's also really telling that in these court filings, prosecutors seem to hint that they have evidence that president trump played a role in the payments and that the payments were made to influence the election. right now you have giuliani and other republicans saying, look at john edwards. it's not a crime to pay off a mistress. this could be done for reasons unrelated to politics but prosecutors wouldn't put that in the document, legal experts say if they didn't have some evidence to corroborate it. so i think that with both the mueller filing and the sdny filing, this is a public facing
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document. there is an audience here. the audience could be president trump. could be his legal team poopts also the public. they putting this down as the marker for what we should all know. you should read these documents knowing they are meant to be read by the public and also the president and his team. >> that's important because the point here is not just that these payments were made but that trump lied about all of this, right? he said we have no dealings with russia. >> i had no idea about the payments -- >> had nothing to do whatsoever with stormy daniels, right? so his situational awareness is someone comes at him, he says i didn't do it and then corrects the record later. now we have a situation in which we have cascading lies that are being challenged by official authorities that work for him. that the -- sdny is part of the justice department. so is mueller. they work for him.
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and the question then is, will the public say, ah, it's nothing. we knew that he was bad from "access hollywood" and he was made president anyway. or does this just degrade and corrode, you know, even his most substantial support? >> that's what i'm wondering about here. and karine, let me take this question to you. let's take the cohen campaign finance piece of this. moveon.org, the foundation of moveon as an organization was 20 years ago when the president of the united states at that time, bill clinton, was accused of committing a felony. of lying under oath, committing perjury to cover up a politically damaging extramarital affair. and moveon.org came into being by saying he should not be impeached over this. you should not be impeached over committing a felony to cover up an affair. you should be censured and we should all move on from that. politically, to this piece, this specific piece, we can put
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russia aside. i'm asking specifically about cohen, campaign finance violations, trump and women, does that apply here as well? >> here's the thing, steve. we haven't seen anything like this since watergate. that's the difference in this. if i were individual one. individual one should be very concerned. so should individual one junior and so should individual one son-in-law. i mean, every -- with every court filing, what we're seeing is mueller is are getting closer and closer to collusion and obstruction of justice. i mean, that is where we are. i think we're going to look back in this period of time and we're going to see it as a pivotal moment, especially these last couple of weeks. and we're going to say, okay, this is the quiet before the storm. more is coming. and that's the thing that we're in -- the place we're here right now. mueller is light years ahead of us. and so there's so much there that we just don't know. and we just have to wait and see. >> frank, let me ask you.
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we asked you -- we started this segment talking about this idea of establishing, did the revelations from friday, did the filings from friday move anywhere toward establishing this question of collusion? you heard the point that john was making here that likely the trump defense from at least what came out on friday would be this was -- these were conversations about business that were taking place through the 2016 campaign. maybe they'd even put out this idea that it's been discussed in the public square that trump didn't even think he was going to win the election. he was setting up for what he could do after the election businesswise. is there a distinction being made between conversations that took place along those lines that may look bad but not cross that line versus conversations that amount to collusion when it came to the campaign itself? >> certainly. so the four corners of the mueller filing do not lay the
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groundwork -- yet -- for evidence of crime with regard to russia. what they do is point the way to where mueller is going with this. so, for example, from a counterintelligence perspective, if russians stood to gain hundreds of millions of dollars through their relationship with trump on a project in moscow, and understand that vladimir putin has to personally approve that, then rest assured they would be going out of their way to assist trump in his campaign to assist him. and similarly, if he understands that he stands to gain hundreds of millions of dollars if this works, then he needs to be joined at the hip with the russians. and that means the russian government. so mueller is pointing us to where he's going on this. if you stay tuned and wait for the roger stone indictment, jerome corsi indictment if you see the level of assistance provided by the russians and the acceptance and recent activity of that from the trump side, i
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think that's where mueller is headed. that's what these filings point us to. >> we're just getting started tonight. when we come back, uncertainty over who will be running the white house. john kelly leaving and nick ayers bowing out. plus the midterms come rolling back in north carolina amid growing claims of fraud. top officials are resigning. nbc and the ap have revoked their calls of a key congressional race. democrat dan mccready has rescinded. and mark sanford stops by after criticizing the president and losing his seat. as we go to break, sometimes we recap what an insane news cycle it's been over the last week. here it is in one day. >> five-part tweet rant. >> about bob mueller and leaking lyin james comey. >> the president has announced nominations for the next attorney general and for the next u.n. ambassador. >> john kelly is the next to go.
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>> comey is on capitol hill testifying. >> the dow is off 420 points. >> two major court filings out tonight. >> michael cohen is now facing potentially substantial prison time. >> the trump campaign interacting with a russian national. >> federal prosecutors in new york have accused the president of criminal violations of the federal campaign laws. >> three new court documents. >> we do now have the manafort filing. >> manafort told multiple, discernible lies. an incredible night of news. >> what a news night. i love eggs, and there's a big difference between ordinary... and the best. which egg tastes more farm-fresh and delicious? only eggland's best. which egg has 6 times more vitamin d, 10 times more vitamin e, and 25% less saturated fat? only eggland's best. which egg is so special, i'd never serve my family anything else? for me, it's only eggland's best.
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most times when you start a new job, the first day is pretty straightforward. meet the co-workers, fill out a $1040 go to orientation and call it a day. pat reports to his new job in the white house as white house counsel tomorrow morning, and the administration is in a bit of a state right now. at the time, chief of staff john kelly gone by the end of the year it looks like. nick ayers reportedly on the way in but now "the wall street journal" first to report, they couldn't agree on a time frame and ayers is going to leave the administration. ayers is the vice president's chief of staff but reportedly told president trump he couldn't commit to the job for more than the first three months of 2019. the president reportedly looking at four different options and won't make an announcement until the end of the year. at the justice department,
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attorney general jeff sessions, of course, is gone. replaced temporarily by matt whitaker. soon to be replaced by william barr, if he is confirmed. shel shelby, all sorts of activity inside the white house. we've been talking about this idea of john kelly leaving for a long time now. it looks like it's actually going to happen. and this idea that kelly is the source, to the extent there's any sort of behind the scenes discipline in the white house, kelly is the source of it. a white house without john kelly, what would that look like? >> i had the pleasure of interviewing leon panetta when kelly got the job. and he said we'll see how -- it will take time to see if john kelly is successful. he will not tolerate disorderly leaking and she nan gans behind the scenes but did say if president trump decides to hell with discipline, i'm over john kelly, we'll have a problem. it's hard to know if that's where we are right now because we don't have the straight story
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out of the white house. there's no way john kelly is staying. looks like he got a little ahead of himself. it's a white house that's desperately needing order. john kelly has done somewhat of an effective job and some say it's just an impossible task. no one can do it. >> the role of a chief of staff and high-ranking person inside the white house, john is it changing? democrats are taking control of the house. there are going to be committees with subpoena power launching all sorts of investigations. we're talking about the possibility that maybe democrats look at one of these aefs and that will be developed from friday and move toward impeachment. is the role of the white house just to survive for the next year or two? >> yeah, but as chief of staff of the white house is an administrative official who is supposed to keep the trains
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running and coordinate among the 15 offices in the white house and lead staff meetings. it's an incredibly important job. it's striking nick ayers said to trump, i don't want it. i could stay for three months. i have twins and i have to go back to georgia. that's a lot of crap. i don't know nick ayers. i'm not saying he's a liar but people don't get offered the white house chief of staff job very often. he was the vice president's chief of staff. this is the center of the action. this is the red hot center of world politics, and world power, and he is going back to georgia after being the chief of staff to the less important guy? i'm not buying it. i think he wants out precisely for the reason you're outline chicago is he doesn't want to be anywhere near all of this as the storm descends on the west wing. >> this was a very politically
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astute decision for nick ayers. he's going back. everyone is thanking him on twitter. he's so great. everyone is saying we wish your family well. so he can go back to georgia and wait this out because he's watched this play out. he could become enemy number one of trump by the end of 18 months. john kelly is reportedly not really on speaking terms with president trump. so i think he's made this move in a calculated move. i'm sure there were family -- i have young kids, too. i understand there were family considerations to make but he was making a calculated political decision. >> did democrats taking over the hour, what are the adds in the first six months that they have control of the house, what are the odds the democrats are going to move toward impeachment on one of these fronts we're talking about? >> i think what democrats are going to do is hold oversight hearings on things we should look into. on real issues. on important issues. so i think they'll definitely do
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that. impeachment, i don't -- you know, impeachment, if it warrants it. if we need it i'm sure they'll go down that road. but just like the mueller investigation, i think they're going to wait to see where that takes them before they start talking about impeachment. but they should do orphsigversi. they're a co-equal branch of government. but i want to agree with john on something. i worked in the white house. and for someone like ayers who is supposed to be an up and coming rock star in the republican party, to not take the biggest job of them all, does say a lot about what some people -- how some people view this administration. you are talking about a white house who cannot be managed. trump cannot be managed. and he undermines his people who work for him and throws them under the bus and goes at it alone so many times. you are a tweet away from being fired. that's the white house they're
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dealing with. >> what do you expect in terms of the posture, the approach this administration, this white house takes toward these investigations in these coming months from the democrats in congress and from the special counsel and southern district of new york as well. >> well, i think what concerns me the most, steve is the departure of john kelly. essentially the departure of one of the last remaining remnants of adult supervision. when you think about what the approach is going to be to these incoming --slaught of investigative threat. the president is not going to be able to restrain himself. he's going to lash out repeatedly and that on any given bad day, you could see a strategy -- unfortunate strategy of trying to fire rod rosenstein and/or bob mueller. things could get a lot weers here. there's a window of time before william barr takes his seat at the department of justice while whitaker is sitting there. don't be surprised if on a bad
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day, particularly if the president feels his family members are threatened with indictment, that we see some irrational act occur where truly mueller or rosenstein are threatened. i don't see a strategy other than deny, deny and when you need to shift to saying, i did it but it wasn't that bad. that's what we'll see to the point where he can't defend himself anymore and don't rule out the possibility that mueller and/or the southern district of new york will attempt an indictment either while he's in office or under seal for execution after he leaves. >> on that note, frank figliuzzi, shelby, anna and karine jean-pierre, thank you for being with us. top officials have resigned in fewer than 1,000 votes separate two candidates in the one outstanding house race left in the country, north carolina's 9th district. amid complaints of fraud. there is now uncertainty over whether there may be a new
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election. we are joined by the state's republican party chairman and by the democratic candidate who thought he had lost. back after this. so a tree falls on your brand-new car and totals it. and as if that wasn't bad enough, now your insurance won't replace it outright because of depreciation. if your insurance won't replace your car, what good is it? you'd be better off just taking your money and throwing it right into the harbor. i'm regret that. with new car replacement, if your brand-new car gets totaled, liberty mutual will pay the entire value plus depreciation. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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an election scandal is becoming increasingly complicated in north carolina's 9th congressional district. republican house candidate mark harris ended up with a 905-vote lead over the democrat dane mccready. the state has refused to certify that race as they investigate claims of irregularities and fraud. new federal election filings show that harris' congressional campaign owes more than $30,000 to a consulting firm called red dome group for its work specifically related to absentee ballots. that firm contracted with a man named mccray dowless who is a person of interest in its investigation. it's a political operative accused of illegally collecting absentee ballots from voters and linked to similar accusations in the past. joining me now, the executive director of the north carolina republican party, dallas woodhouse. thank you for taking a few minutes. i saw the other day you laid out the conditions i think under
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which you would say we should have a new election held. basically you said harris, your party's candidate, the republican candidate, should be certified if the winner can be determined the number of potential votes we're talking about here does not indicate his winning margin. i'm just looking at this in this one county in particular, bladen county where this seems to be the focus of interest here. 684 absentee ballots were cast. and 495 absentee ballots were not returned. just add those two together you're over 905 right there. can you say -- can it even -- is it possible to say with certainty that this wasn't affected by any absentee ballot shenanigans? >> well, smarter people than me will have to figure that out, steve. this entire debacle has shaken us to the core. it is disgusting. it is not what the republican party stands for.
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i'm sitting here today in the middle of a snowstorm. in the middle of an electoral storm, and i swear we're going to have the locust and black plague come at us next week. it's been horrible. we have mr. mccready coming up. we need to treat him fair and resolve this, but i think the important thing is there has been a systematic failure going back over a decade through three governors' administrations. dozens of members of boards of elections, prosecutors, political parties that have all been part of a system attic failure, and we have to fix this for the long term. the winner of this congressional seat and who and when they are seated has really become a secondary issue. >> so you're attaching this. a longer term concern. but it is part of addressing that longer term issue because i know there's been some reporting that suggests this particular operative we've talked about has, in the past, worked with democrats, worked with republicans. okay.
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but in 2018 in this congressional election that's now unresolved, the state board of elections in north carolina so far is refusing to certify. we know he was working for the republican candidate. is there an argument to be made that as part of creating a new atmosphere going forward, you say, look, the basic fairness of this election, just 905 votes between them -- between these two candidates and all of these questions, that's part of moving forward you hold a new election. >> look, we're not ready to call for a special election yet because i think the media has been enormously helpful in bringing much sunlight, the greatest disinfectant to this. but as good as the media reports are, we have to wait for the state nonpartisan investigators. and part of that, having a new election has to meet a court standard because, you know, you have to balance what happened there with throwing out 285,000 people who cast legal ballots who are not in question. it is a tough balancing act.
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i don't know how we get there, but i think working together that we can. >> i guess -- let me read from the law here in terms of what under north carolina state law it would take for the board we're talking about here to be justified in throwing out the election and calling a new one. the law says that they should do that if the irregularities or improprieties occurred to such an extent they taint the result of the entire election and cast doubt on its fairness. so it's not a specific quantitative criteria. just saying the basic fairness of the election is called into question. i guess my question to you, what does that mean? what would that mean? >> well, traditionally, it has meant that there is a likelihood or that the race outcome was overturned or substantial likelihood it could have been. it doesn't mean that you have to get to over 905 votes. you just got to get somewhere in
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the neighborhood. but i am beginning to think the investigators will lay it out and it will become obvious. either obvious there was some bad behavior and, by the way, we are in favor of serious criminal prosecutions, putting these people for long prison sentences who did this. these are paid political mercenaries. this is a scourge on our democracy, and it has to be run out. but i worry about the 285,000 people who cast legal ballots. if we went to a special election in the middle of the winter, we'd probably have 25,000 or 50,000 people voto 225,000 people will likely be disenfranchised. you know, i have some issue with a nonquantitative measure. we have always based new elections on a bipartisan basis and based on some sort of numerical calculation. i think that's what's best for the state in the long run, but other people who understand these things better than i do
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will have to make that determination. i just think the disgraceful part about this is there are so many innocent victims here. the 750,000 people are not going to be represented when congress begins. mr. mccready -- both candidates, if they didn't know about this it is just a horrific situation that we all have to work together and pledge can never happen again. and the media has to hold us accountable for that for years and years to come. >> all right. dallas woodhouse from the north carolina republican party. thank you for taking a few minutes. now let's bring in the democratic candidate in the 9th congressional district, dan mccready. officially trailing this race by 905 votes. dan, thank you for joining us. the state board of elections has set a deadline to collect evidence to hold hearings to try to decide if it can go forward and certify this election or if
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it will take another course of action. from your standpoint, is there anything that the board of elections could learn, could ascertain over these next two weeks that would allow you to sit back and say, okay, i'm satisfied. i lost this election? >> you know, it's been a really unbelievable week. the evidence, the affidavits are pouring in, not just day by day. they're coming in hour by hour. i was as shocked as anybody to see the state board of elections decide in a bipartisan 9-0 decision a couple weeks ago not to certify this race. but the evidence has been pouring in. and i think a lot more of that is going to happen over the next couple of weeks. the amazing thing in all of this is that my opponent mark harris, who hired the known criminal, mccray dallas that you spoke about, hired this shady character to run his absentee
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ballot program, has yet to answer a single question about what he knew and when he knew it. and i think that mark harris owes it to the people, owes it to the people of north carolina who had their voices, their votes stolen from them to come clean and actually answer the questions. >> let me ask you this, though. you ran in this district. you know this district really well. i keep reading these stories and hearing from people down there that they were all sorts of stories, chatter, rumors, whatever you want to call it about bladen county, about absentee ballots, about shenanigans that go back years that involve this fellow mccray dallas. did you know who he was during this campaign? was this something that was on your radar? >> i never met the guy. i didn't know who he was. but, you know, my opponent mark harris went out and hired him. this guy -- bladen county is a small county. these are small towns. you know who the shady characters are. this guy is a known criminal, a known fraud ster.
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he'd already been investigated for absentee ballot fraud. the incumbent congressman robert pittinger said on the record that he sat down with this guy for a few minutes and decided to stay as far away from him as he could because he was so shady. >> i'm just curious because i haven't -- forgive me if you said this elsewhere, but as a tactical matter, as a campaign matter, i'm genuinely curious. were you aware that he was working for your opponent's campaign? were you worried about it? was it something on your radar, strategically. that means this could happen in bladen. was that something you were thinking about? >> you know, we were thinking about it and worried about it. and we looked into things a little bit toward the end of the election. we kicked the tires a little bit. it's hard as a private citizen, you know, i'm a marine corps veteran. i'm a business person, not a private investigator. so you can only do so much as a private citizen.
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and that's why i think it's so important that the north carolina board of elections is conducting a full investigation right now because, you know, these criminals need to be put in jail. and anybody that did something wrong and needs to be held accountable. and mark harris needs to end his silence and tell the people what he knew. >>ccready, the only uncalled race right now. >> good to be on with you. >> we did invite mark harris, the republican from this race, to be on the show but his campaign declined. coming up next, congressman mark sanford joins me next. we'll talk about the lessons he learned from standing up to president trump and losing in a republican primary.
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congressman sanford, appreciate you joining us. you have an interesting perspective, obviously, on a lot of the issues we've been talking about throughout the course of the hour here. you were defeated earlier this year, narrowly, in a republican primary for your house seat. the president in the final hours of that campaign weighing in against you. you are sort of regarded as an example out there potentially of what happens to a republican who crosses president trump in this day and age in terms of a republican base. i wonder, what is your read after this election? we now have republicans losing, it looks like, 40 seats in the house. may end up 41 if this north carolina situation were to get overturned completely. but 40-plus seat loss for republicans in the house. that, you want to say psychology in the republican party base that cost you your seat, has it changed at all because of this november election result? >> not yet. i mean, i think what it says, it's a harbinger of things to come in the future.
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in an electoral sense. i think there's a limit to what soccer moms and what business people will put up in terms of rhetoric and tone. it says that the real problems as you get to the general election. you saw a lot of, i would argue, great folks wiped out in the midterms based on the trump effect. but as to the primary voter themselves, i think the people are still fairly locked down with where they were. i think the value proposition with trump is largely economic. and as long as the economy holds, they'll stay by him. but when the economy tips, and you can begin to see some of this with what happened in the stock market this week, i think that value proposition is gone, and there will be a turn. so i think there's a half life to the trump effect but it's still pretty strong in primaries right now. >> what's the temperature among your republican colleagues in the house? what are they saying? what do you hear from them behind the scenes when it comes to the political standing of this white house with everything that's swirling around it?
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>> you know, i think that there are two different levels. i mean, publicly, and i'm an example and other people are example, the way in which after the midterms, in essence, he danced on the grave of the likes of carlos carbela or barbara comstock, people he said were not close enough to him and that was the reason they lost. the fact is those folks had taken tough votes in marginal districts to advance his agenda that very much stood by him. and the accusation was inaccurate. so what you hear is, at a private level, people, obviously, concerned about the amount of turmoil in and around the white house. whether that's something like -- with kelly leaving or some of the things we've seen here hit the headlines of late. publicly, not a lot of comment. people don't want to get in the crosshairs of a bad trump tweet. >> specifically also, i'm curious, when it comes to the
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court filings on friday, democrats out there saying and talking now about impeachment. some democrats who weren't talking about it necessarily before looking specifically at the michael cohen campaign finance case saying if it can be to break campaign fie nanance l which would be a felony and would be an impeachable offense. what is the willingness of your colleagues to stand by the president in that kind of a political battle? >> let's see how it all plays out. we don't know yet. i was around for the last impeachment and typically, unless you have everything really locked down, impeachments are difficult political endeavors and so, you know, people say look, i don't want to deal with it, let's do as was done in the midterms, see an electoral consequence but not have this in the hands of the
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politician. whether or not there is an impeachable offense that can be proven, we don't know. should it come now that there is a more delicate political question, how hard they advance or not. >> i'm curious. i can remember 20 years ago republicans almost up and down looked at bill clinton and said bill clinton committed a felony and lied under oath and committed perjury and committed a felony to cover up a politically embarrassing affair and because of that, that warranted impeachment and republicans that control the house went forward and i'm peached him and the senate didn't convict him. should that same logic apply 20 years later when it comes to a republican president that would stand accused of directing the breaking of campaign finance laws to cover up a politically embarrassing affair? >> yeah, i think you'll see the same political dynamic hold true with democrats as their base pressures them to do something about it. but i think you'll probably see the same political effect we saw
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20 years ago, which is even if the house did something, i expect the senate would not and you would see the same in essence movie play out 20 years later in terms of political drama on the hill. >> to you is that impeachable? >> i don't know what i don't know at this point. if it's true, yeah. in other words, i think that whether the president, the vice president, anybody in officer ought to be held to the same standard and laws as anybody else here in the 300 plus million folks that make up america. >> all right. congressman mark sanford from south carolina. thank you for joining us. appreciate it. more "kasie d.c." in just a minute. to most, he's phil mickelson, pro golfer.
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president trump announced and he's leaving the surgery to remove his palm from his face. >> we'll talk about who might replace john kelly, plus the first interview with fired fbi director james comey since he testified on capitol hill on friday and congressman tim ryan joins me live. i'll ask him whether democrats should stick to a message of
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court filings. >> chairman paul manafort. >> individual one. >> individual one. >> individual one. >> individual one of course, is president trump. directing cohen to make illegal payments to women with which the president had apaaffairs. that would be a fln knee -- felony. >> nobody should be above the law. >> he may be the first president in quite sometime to face the prospect of jail time. >> you can't indict a president. >> this is prosecution abuse, i think. >> they would be impeachable offenses. >> reserve judgment until we know everything that happened at some point. >> at this point we have an incomplete picture. >> we don't know what additional information the justice department has. >> if you're shooting at the president of the united states and the only bullet in your gun is michael cohen, then i think that's a problem. >> and welcome back to this second hour of "kasie d.c." with me onset republican
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strategist susan and white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lamarre and nbc nation ken and ceo of vote latino, maria teresa kumar. thank you for being with us. ken, let me go to you to set the scene because we're talking about this a little last hour and there are so many different pieces in terms of what came out friday with these different court filings and it looks like the most, with that question of impeachment hoovers overall of this, the most immediate concern there for administration when it comes to that is the campaign finance michael cohen hush money did trump commit a felony by orchestrating the breaking of the laws intentionally question. take us to the other piece of it when it comes to russia, the 2016 campaign and business ties. take us through what we learned
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on friday on that front and how it could affect these questions, as well. >> what we learned, steve, is just like the way the trump campaign deceived the voters about those payments to those women, they also deceive the voters about contacts with russians and trump's proposed business arrangement in moscow with russians and particularly we learned on friday michael cohen talked extensively and revealed new information to special counsel robert mueller about contacts during the campaign and other members of the trump campaign's contact with russians and onto the trump transition team and white house, which was the first indication that robert mueller has been investigating some aspect of donald trump's presidency. so you can knit these two things together. they both represent a fraud on the american people. donald trump at his first news conference as president, february 2017 was asked about five times whether he or anybody around him had contacts with russians during the campaign and
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he denied it up, down and sideways. if you read the transcripts, he was careful in some aspects so there are no current contacts with russians but at some point he said i don't know anybody around me that had contact with russians and we know from the document on friday that isn't true because it describes a meeting with michael cohen that donald trump had where they confirmed they reached out to the russian government about that. this is september 2015. and then as we know from previously filed documents, the negotiations on that project went on up until around the republican national convention. so all throughout the primaries and this was hidden from the american voter, steve. >> john, in terms of hbehind th scenes, there is flux who is around trump, how serious? are they taking this and what is going on there? >> there is a real degree of concern. for many close to the president, michael cohen and what he knows about the trump organization and
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what we're seeing about these ties to russia, they felt like it posed more of a threat to the presidency than some of the questions that robert mueller was looking into about collusion and such. there is a spin suggesting it was just a business project that cohen himself saw on friday. the sentencing memo from the southern district of new york said he was not fully truthful and he exaggerated helpfulness and committed serious crimes and others pointed to cohen's lack of credibility and saying and pointing to he spent multiple years in prison for what he did. therefore, if he is, as chris christie eluded to, if he's the main witness to the president, perhaps he's not the most reliable character and therefore not someone that trump should be worried about. that said, they know there is more. they know there is stuff from cohen. they know there is stuff from manafort. this isn't going away. it seems that after we had a real lull there before the midterm election when mueller
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went quiet, publicly he was clearly working very hard behind the scenes and there is more and more stuff coming out and there is a degree people around the president think he himself has not been fully truthful. we saw -- >> that's the biggest -- >> he came out on the white house lawn and said about this moscow, that was talked about during the campaign and something i fully discussed. no, it wasn't. it was always a deny. he always denied he had ties to russia and i talked to people that didn't know where that came from. >> it's the public things he may not have been truthful but everything else they don't know. that's what is scarring them more than anything, that michael cohen finding out he was looking to russia while the campaign was going on was shocking to a lot of people. what they are more concerned with i think in a lot of ways is what has the president not told them? something many never tell their lawyers anything. you're lucky if you get 75, 80%.
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that has them on edge now. >> we look at the legal issues that are floating out there and stipulate. we don't know what is going on behind the scenes in these investigations. we're going to probably find out more in things that weren't on our radar. stipulate that. trying to translate this to the political context where that question of impeachment, democrats having majority in the house to move toward impeachment if they desire, if you can connect what is happening to an impeachment push, from a republican standpoint, did anything come out on friday change the political equation for republicans when it comes to standing by this president? >> well, i think they are concerned about can they continue to stand by this president because they, too, are not sure what they don't know. they know right now that the president is basically been named as someone who violated
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campaign finance law, a felony knee that if a major, a governor, a u.s. senator wask that if a major, a governor, a u.s. senator was that if a major, a governor, a u.s. senator was indicted, the president excused. have the democrats used that for impeachment? i think they would be wiser and this is what republicans are scared of that they wait until mueller finishes his investigation and finds out what is there because every day they get more and more nervous. >> very briefly, there is a sense of republicans, if it's just campaign finance, the president can survive that. that's something the public isn't going to back i'm peach the p -- impeachment proceedings. >> is that a fair reading on the politics of it? is in my head when we talk about a felony to prevent a politically damaging affair from coming to light is 20 years ago and the roles were almost reversed. democrats said look, it's none of our business. this was bill clinton committing
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a felony potentially, perjury to cover up a politically damaging affair who wouldn't do it and republicans said impeach, impeach. does that mean it's got to in terms of impeachment, it's got to move more in terms of russia and other questions out there? >> i think if we take the temperature check of where the country is and where the president framed this is completely bipartisan effort trying to basically disrobe him from the white house, the democrats have to work closely with making sure they have more information about mueller for him to proceed. the republicans came out of the midterms badly bruised and they recognize the american people are engaged. the number four reason that a lot of voters went out and voted is they were sick and tired of the sense of corruption happening and the corruption that pointed inside the white house. the republicans are very clear they have a mandate coming out of the american people but the democrats need to thread the
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fine line to make sure they have as much information as possible so this doesn't tear the country apart, steve. it's very important also the more we learn about mueller that we keep reminding the american public mueller is actually a republican, that this is coming from comey who is also a republican so that we were talking about country first, more than what is happening with the president and that way basically takes a lot of what will come out so it's not partisan but nation first. >> and ken, the other question, "the new york times" had reporting about the investigations potentially now involving folks in the trump organization, folks in the broader trump orbit and what knowledge, what role, what sort of position they might have had in terms of what michael cohen is now needing to. what can you tell us about that? >> so this is a line of reporting nbc news is reporting. we can't independently report
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tonight that the south endistriendi district is going further. the reason that would happen is because the way this transaction was hidden, michael cohen submitted fake legal bills. other people in the trump organization participated in what looks like as a fraud. there may be legal culpability and once prosecutors start unraveling a private real estate business and perhaps allen, trump's long-time accountant, who knows where that would lead. the question is if they uncover bank fraud, tax fraud, you know, other kinds of crimes that happened before donald trump became president, would that be enough for impeachment? recall entnixon's person who wa removed from office. that would be an interesting question and then the other question that you hear about the southern district investigation is could a president be indicted
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but that indictment sealed until he leaves office because you're starting to hear people talk about the possibility that donald trump leaves office in two years and finds himself in the cross hairs of these new york prosecutors on conduct that happened before he was president. >> all right. meanwhile, just two days after testifying behind closed doors in front of the house judiciary and oversight committees, james comey sitting down with make until wallace in the first interview since that testimony. this is what he said a few minutes ago. >> is the president of the united states right now an unindicted co-conspirator? >> i don't know. not in the formal sense that he's been named in an indictment where you can actually say that this defendant and named others or others conspired together and that's how you formally name someone but if he's not there, he's certainly close given the language in the filing that the
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crimes are committed at his direction or could have gotten stronger, counsel. >> if trump wasn't the president and someone went to court in the southern district of new york and sponsored information they directed a crime, what would happen to that person? >> well, that person would be in serious jeopardy of being charged because the government wouldn't make that sponsoring allegation if they weren't seriously contemplating going forward with criminal charges. now where it stands here, i can't say. >> again, that was just a couple minutes ago, just a few miles from here. just listening to that, it strikes me we talked two years ago about this time donald trump coming into office republican house, republican senate, what's the agenda, what can be passed legislatively and now looking ahead to january 2019 a few weeks from now, these are the conversations that are going to dominate the foreseeable future for this administration. >> that's right. there is very little about the agenda. even a measured attempt to be
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bipartisan and suggestion of criminal justice reform or maybe something on open i didn't ioid. this is the white house that will be in their battle station and they know they will be in a defensive posture as that ey be and know life is changing at 1600 pennsylvania avenue once the democrats get control of the house and have the power of the subpoena. they know that senior aid after senior aid will be on the hill to testify at issues of not just russia but separation, the clause, anything else that would be pertained to the west wing every day. they realize there is a chance things are going completely bogged down and will have that much more trouble bringi ing talented people in the administration. that will probably only get worse. they are afraid that this is something that could define the rest of the way. say conversely, they think there is a sense there for the president, he told people around
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him that he thinks having a foil like this, the democrats in the house and nancy pelosi could be useful, that he's at his best when he has an enemy and someone he can go after day after day on twitter or whatever and he can start running for reelection now, currently against pelosi before the democrats choose their nomination. >> one thing i want to follow up on what ken said. if the southern district is looking into donald trump's business now, he did not put that in a blind trust. what happens in his business even while president, he is in fact responsible for. and i think that's also what a lot of people have a great deal of concern about when they are looking forward and to jonathan's point of who wants to be part of team trump. it's a bad place to be. >> much more to come over the next hour including more from james comey speaking out tonight for the first time since the closed door appearance and the white house chief of staff feels like the drummer from spinal
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tap. he'll be gone by the year's end and the rumor mill is going. >> tim ryan whose home state of ohio may be pivotal to the 2020 election. how democrats should taylor the message if they want to win in trump country. i'm at this wing joint telling people that geico has been offering savings for over 75 years. that's longer than the buffalo wing's been around. dozen wings. and did you know that geico... (lips smacking) offers mo... (coughing) motorcycle insurance? ho-ho... my lips are burning. (laughs) ah... no, my lips are actually burning. geico. over 75 years of savings and service. see how much you could save at geico.com. it's too hot. oh, this is too hot, mate. around here, nobody evreally? it it's too hot. i didn't do it so when i heard they added ultra oxi to the cleaning power of tide, i knew it was just what we needed so now we can undo all the tough stains that nobody did dad? i didn't do it it's got to be tide
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i was to tell him what the threat was in the united states and i had hair-raising stuff to tell him and he seemed distracted and i don't think he asked questions and then at the end, kicked everybody else out saying he wanted to speak alone. he said he wanted to talk about mike flynn and in substance in that conversation he asked me, which i took as a direction, to let it go. obviously, it's evidence of obstruction of justice so how to handle that was something we struggled with and we decided to keep it tight for two reasons. first, we didn't want to infect the investigative team and didn't want them to know the president said drop that investigation. we were not going to abide by the direction and didn't want to affect the investigators so we said we'll keep it among this group of five or six. >> again, that is just a few minutes ago, james comey and the first interview since testifying on capitol hill on friday speaking with nicole wallace about that oval office conversation in 2017 and the
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president asked if he would let go of the investigation and michael flynn. an interesting backdrop as we bring you back into the conversation here because we talk about the court filings on friday that was in d.c. but a couple days before michael flynn, the formal national security advisor back in the news in terms of how the special counsel office would like to deal with him going forward and say he provided substantial cooperation, what can you tell us about that? >> the juiciest parts were redacted. it was very much active investigations going on as a result of what mike flynn has given them. what james comey said in the interview tonight according to the transcripts i'm seeing is that he is a witness in the robert mueller investigation and that's important because that's a public confirmation mueller is in fact investigating obstruction of justice and
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something similar happened on friday where he said comey is a witness in the obstruction of justice probe. that's never been publicly confirmed. we've assumed it's going on but when we sift through the details, mueller is still investigating whether donald trump obstructed justice and he probably isn't going to indict trump based on foreign policy but may deliver a report to congress that could be more damming than some of these other issues we're seeing. don't forget on many occasions, donald trump that we know about asked some of his officials to say there was no collusion and told lester holt it was in part to stymie the russia investigation or done with russia on his mind is a significant aspect of the whole robert mueller inquiry. >> maria, in terms of the politics and timetable, we're hearing little bit of this from some republicans that
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potentially, one of the arguments made if and when there is a report from mueller on this, let the voters sort this out in 2020 and it will be in some point in 2019 when we hear from mueller, let the voters make sense of this and what it means in 2020. is there a timetable democrats are up against when it comes to moving on impeachment like the first six months of 2019 where you don't make a move in the wind window, you need to let it roll into the 2020 election? >> let's not forget, these are the same republicans that don't want to provide obama with his chance to until nate someone into the supreme court and when it came time to fast track, they did that with kavanaugh. that's nonsense whacht we're talking about and the american people should know is what is happening right now with the mueller investigation and they
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want answers. the democrats need to make sure they are trying not to make it, not to politicize it, that sounds absurd but less so they can politicize it and have something substantive to have hearings about is only going to make it stronger for the american people. the more they have information and i think you're seeing adam schiff doing that. he's basically telling the american people there are things that are indictable and the president for sure is more than likely going to serve jail time from the facts that he's been reading and everythiserving in committee. the republicans will want to hold this until 2019 because they will say it's all political and democrats need to needle that thread to make sure that they are having as much information so they can put a sealed tight case in front of the american people and congress when it comes to the president and possible impeachable offenses.
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>> we say flux in the white house right now in terms of who is around the president. john kelly talked about forever this idea of him leaving the white house. under what circumstances is he leaving the white house? what's the state of his relationship with the president just in terms of personal relationship and in terms of what he's meant in terms of the way the white house operates? >> kelly did have some success early on sort of with the paper process of the white house. he better organize the policies and procedures in the west wing and cut down access to the oval office that was what the president likes. there is some degree of discipline in the first few months kelly did impose on the white house. his clout faded as the months went on. there were people in the building that found ways around him and he lost respect of staff from the handling of the rob porter incident. the white house botched the background checks into that.
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trump himself also grew tired of him and the restraints that kelly was trying to put on him. he still holds respects from what we've heard, he respects john kelly and not throwing trash on the way out the door like he did with so many other former staffers, the former secretary of state. they are leaving in a relatively good term. >> is that what you're describing? is that going to happen with anybody? trump grows tired of them. is there a shelf life of a couple months? >> that's right. the chief of staff serves forever for any president but certainly this one trump does grow tired of them and it's a demad demanding job. he's so demanding it takes such energy to keep him under control and on track. kelly was successful for a time and less so. the question now is who takes his job. nick aryes considered the job. he was offered the job. he and the president were
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negotiating over the position. they have fallen apart. ayres wanted to serve for a short time, he has three young triplets at home. he wanted to stay for the first few months. the president wants a commitment for the next two years. he would like, at least on paper to have the chief of staff through election day 2020. so now those talk haves broken off. he's going to run a super pac that supports the president and instead, trump's search starts over a few names we heard, the budget director, we've heard about the treasury secretary steven mnuchin and congress with one or two other names in the mix but seems like there is no leading candidate. >> interesting to see somebody turn that position down. ken, thank you so much for joining us and when we come back, i'll be joined live by democratic congressman tim ryan from ohio. we'll talk about how parademocrparadefar
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democrats should go and the power struggle in his party and the power of the speaker on the house floor coming up in a few weeks from now. your mornings were made for better things, than psoriatic arthritis. as you and your rheumatologist consider treatments, ask if xeljanz xr is right for you. xeljanz xr is a once daily pill for psoriatic arthritis. taken with methotrexate or similar medicines, it can reduce joint pain... ...swelling and significantly improve physical function. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests, and cholesterol levels have happened.
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joining me live is tim ryan. let me start with you on the news within the democratic ranks on capitol hill the last couple weeks. democrats have the majority coming into the new congress and house. vote for speaker will be in early january. you're one of the democrats who signed that letter a couple weeks ago and said you're not going to vote for nancy pelosi. she has the endorsement to be speaker. let me start with this, are you still committed in the vote on the house floor in january not to vote for nancy pelosi for speaker? is your intention there? >> well, i am at this point and the reality of it is we campaigned on change. the american people wanted change, if you look at our candidates, whether it was stacy abrams or gillum or beto, they were change candidates. they were the ones who really energized democrats and really got a lot of people to vote for
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them and i think that's what the american people want. we have a lot of candidates who ran in one in conservative districts by saying they would get a change in leadership and vote for a change in leadership and i think we need to respond to what the american people asked for, that's change. >> what happened? no challenger, yourself included have stepped forward and said i'll run against nancy pelosi. and there are two people at least who signed this letter, steve lynch from south boston, brian higgins from new york who said forget it. i signed the letter. what happened? everything you're saying about these folks running on the idea, why is it translated into so little? >> well, over 35 people who voted against her in the caucus vote, and look, i think it's people who are voting their conscience. they are voting their district.
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they are voting for change and we don't know what that number is but that's -- i feel compelled to vote my district and to vote what my people want. look, as i said, the candidates that are generating the most energy for us as democrats are the ones that need a change and the democrats are a hard sell in the midwest. we're a hard sell in the deep south. and we've got to come up with new platforms, no ideas, modernizing the government, m modizimo modernizing the party to do it. they won based on campaigning for change saying they would vote for new leadership. i feel we have an obligation to the people. it's basically check against the establishment democrats right now. >> do you believe, though, when the new congress reconvenes, you'll be elected speaker? >> i'm not sure. i'm not sure how that will play out. i'm not sure anybody does. >> is there a challenger that
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may still emerge? >> that i don't know. i mean, there is certainly a lot of talent in our caucus and so we're just going to have to wait and see how it plays out on january 3rd, but between now and then, there is a long time and hopefully we can come to some resolution. there is a lot of people that want change. if you go out when i'm home in ohio, people say democrats, we need change. this is what we've asked for. this is what we've wanted and as i said, steve, the candidates who won who are now going to be sworn in in january, they told their constituents they were voting for a change in leadership and that means something today. >> i guess let me ask you one more question, i'll ask you from this direction because the argument has been made out there, almost a prague mat tin hey, republicans try to run against nancy pelosi and put them in the television ads and
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against the idea of being speaker and tried to do that this year. they have a net gain of 40 seats and counting but the fact that she has survived as the democratic leader for almost 20 years right now, almost two decades, the fact that shed a all these democrats out there, you're mentioning them saying how many get to washington, i'm going to stand up to her and vote against her and yet here we are close to christmas and still not a single person put their name out there and said i'll challenge her on the inside when it comes to leading democrats until the halls of congress, she is a strong and effective leader. is there a prague mat tihere an based on the fact she doesn't have a challenger? >> there is two different games being played. one, again, i'll reiterate and nobody knows the numbers and campaigns down to the number better than you. look at the candidates who won their congressional election and look at what they said. they told their constituents they were going to vote for
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change. they sometimes specifically said i'm going to vote against nancy pelosi or they said i'm going to vote for change in our top leadership. that's what they promised. that's what opened the door for them to make arguments about health care, about preexisting conditions, about the environment, about whatever the other issue was locally that helped propel them into congress. that door opened because they were going to be a changed candidate. and no one has been more complementary of leader pelosi's abilities on the inside to make things hum. there is no doubt about that. she has that skill that she's talented. she's going to be a historic figure in our country but the reality of it is, is that in places like ohio and a lot of these other congressional districts, her negatives are very, very high. we can't win unless we ask for a change in leadership. so it's two separate things but if we're going to get these candidates reelected, then i
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believe that we need a change in leadership and again, it's not personal. i've complimented and i have served under and i've voted for nancy pelosi my entire career except for when i ran against her two years ago and i voted for her on the house floor but she served two presidential terms what two presidents are allowed, she served 16. it's time for a change and if we don't make the change, we'll send candidates into really tough reelections and it's going to be a brand issue for us as we go into the 2020 presidential, as well. >> very quick question, your state ohio, we traditionally think of it as one of the premiere swing states, trump wins by ten points in 2016. turn around in 2018, there is a blue wave nationally, does not seem to hit ohio. no house seats flip for democrats in ohio. republican wins the win in ohio
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and by a tighter margin i think than a lot of folks were expected. 2020, should we still think of ohio as a swing state? >> there is no doubt about it. if we come with a worker centered platform, if we focus like a laser beam on pensions, wages, bringing private investment into places like youngstown, ohio. 80% of venture capital goes to california, new york and massachusetts. we need a new and better government and a new and better capital system driving private investment into areas like ours. if the democrats wrap their arms around bold initiatives that will help communities that have been left behind by globalization and left behind by automati automation, we can win again. we have to reconnect and this is part of the leadership battle. we got banged by general motors. they got a tax cut and cut 14,000 jobs and their stock
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price goes up 6%. that's a broken economic system and if the democrats aren't the party that comes in and fixes this stuff, with health care, with the economy, with pensions, with education, we're going to lose. and we've got to win ohio, michigan and wisconsin. we can't rely on a scandal from the president or corruption from the president or at the state capital to win. we've got to reconnect with these voters who are barely able to keep their nose above water making the bills and paying the bills and if we're the party that does that, we'll win ohio and win the midwest and start picking up seats down in the southern part of the country, as well. >> all right. congressman tim ryan, thanks for the time. >> thanks, steve. >> still to come, the moving field of 2020 contenders, who is in and already out? back after this. ♪ let's do the thing that you do. let's clear a path. let's put down roots. let's build something.
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what does it mean no one can pick up the phone and say mr. president, you accused the former fbi director of a felony? >> the people that can hold him accountable for that is us. that's our job. not to become numb to it and to stand up and participate in holding him accountable to the norms, i think of the american voting population as a giant wing nuts in the middle is mostly people unengaged, that giant is awakening because of things like this and we have to
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continue to awaken the giant so we're going to have an election in less than two years, we must hold him accountable and it's not a republican thing, it's a democratic thing and american thing because this is unacceptable behavior if tfor t leader of our country. >> would you ever run? >> no. >> have you thought about it? >> i've thought about it enough to know i'll never run for office. >> jail james kocomey speaking nicole wallace. you can add him to the list of possible candidates taking their names out of contention for the 2020 presidential race. new york governor andrew cuomo, former massachusetts governor patrick and michael avenatti said they not will be making runs for the white house that comes as "the new york times" is dubbing beto oc'rourke the wild card. he's increasingly serious about
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a 2020 run. the beto o'rourke one, it's fascinating to me. we have maria teresa kumar still with us. >> yes. >> what do you think the case against him as he couldn't win the big statewide election in texas, he got close but couldn't win it. how can you turn around and run for president? is that a hindering in this day of age. >> he wasn't supposed to come in striking distance of cruz and he did. texas should never have been in play but what beto did is what comey says needs to be done. he needs to ignite the ima imaginations of the individuals that historically sit it out. we had over 93 million americans eligible to vote who decided not to cast a ballot. that's a game changer and what he was able to do in texas. he didn't win but he came less -- he literally came in less than 5% of the vote.
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that's a possibility anywhere. when folks look where you want to win, ohio you can make a claim that ohio for all intensive purposes, the elect to be -- electoral map shifted. you see the midwest that will be more on the republican side harder to play but in texas and southern states, you have a new profession of emerging latino population paying attention to what is happening. it's a completely different map and yes, beto didn't win right away but he has name recognition. >> i was talking to a senior republican that said with a month to go before the election, he told ted cruz you need too bury him, beat him by six, eight, ten points. even if you win, you'll give him life and he'll be around for a long time. there is a recognition on the
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republican side o'rourke has that raw talent and charisma that has been lacking most of the democratic field. i think the resume is thin, he did just lose narrowly, there is something there. there is an energy behind him to create enthusiasm and produce new voters to win in texas or the south like that that i do think could be formidable. >> republican strategists, let me ask you the question this way. if you look at the roster of all three dozen of them, democrats mentioned as candidates, who would be the biggest nightmare for republicans. >> dana. >> why? >> because he has a way of connecting with the voters, all the folks who showed up in 2018 want this person. they don't know it yet but if they get introduced to him on national level. they will come out. he will get new voters out.
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republicans are losing voters. he's not that conservative. he doesn't have much of a record so he can define himself. the biggest challenge will get through a primary but a lot of people are watching him and not giving to other candidates. they are starting to dwindle down because they know they won't have the resources because people are waiting. i think he's the one that can really pose the biggest challenge. >> wow, your answer caught me by surprise. back with more "kasie d.c." coming up and the president weighing on his next chief of staff. we'll tell you about that. i'm lucky to get through a shift without a disaster.
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president trump announced that his chief of staff, john kelly will be gone by year's end. "the new york times" maggie haberman reported that kelly was supposed to break the news tomorrow, but the president beat him to the punch who will step in next? we thought might be nick ayers, chief of staff to mike pence, the vice president. ayers and the president were unable to come to an agreement on the timeframe. instead he will leave the administration at the end of the
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month and plans to return home to georgia. president trump tried to pour cold water on the recent report that ayers appeared to be next in line for the job. the president tweeting tonight that he's in the process of interviewing quote some really great people for the position and will be making a decision soon. meanwhile there are multiple reports that trump is now considering congressman mark meadows from north carolina, the chairman of the house freedom caucus. meadows' office told our producers, no comment. treasury secretary steve mnuchin and mick mulvaney are also said to be under consideration. what to watch for in the week ahead.
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all right. and before we go on this sunday, let's kick it with the panel one more time. to see what they're watching in the week ahead. maria, let me start with you. >> we were talking about 2020. i have rumors that folks will start announcing this week. so hang on tight, steve. >> let's keep an eye out on one of those 47 names. might give us an answer. >> seussen? >> there's always a chance for an indictment somewhere. but what i'm looking towards is the senate putting some sanctions on saudi arabia. i think the time has come. >> okay. and john what about you? >> i would like an explanation as to how the patriots lost on a hook-and-ladder play in the final seconds to the doflens, but beyond that i would like to see who the president does pick for chief of staff. and also girding the west wing for all the investigations to come from the democratically controlled house of representatives.
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>> we have an imbalanced panel to massachusetts. i share your frustration with the patriots result. didn't go for a touchdown when they had a chance to put the dolphins away. soy think they almost deserve what happened, unfortunately. and the other piece of news that just came across in the last couple of minutes, the baseball hall of fame, harold baines and lee smith have been elected to the baseball hall of fame. bit of news there on that front. we don't normally cover that but lee smith was a closer, so we'll close the show with that, kasie will be back next week from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. and coming up, msnbc's headliners, taking a fresh look at michael cohen after he admitted to lying under oath to protect the president. and for now, good night from new york.
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>> bob mueller revealing michael cohen's crimes as well as new details about his ties to russia. >> michael cohen potentially facing substantial prison time after pleading guilty -- twice. >> michael cohen has clearly made the decision that he is going all in in terms of his cooperation. >> donald trump seemed blind-sided by the latest michael cohen plea. he stood up on the south lawn and called michael co-an liar. >> he's a weak person and he's trying to get a reduced sentence. so he's lying about a project that everybody knew about. >> before cohen cooperated with the mueller investigation, he was the president's loyal fixer. >> if anybody else was in his mind going after his boss, he was going to fight back. >> he vowed to prote
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