handsome guy back in 2017 foreshadowing the notion that we would eventually get to the point where jared kushner would be in the running to be a chief of staff in the white house. that's one thing we've talked about this week. no one else seems to want the job. chris christie turned it down today. is donald trump ever going to have another chief of staff? >> if it is jared we can make the joke he went to jared. >> there's only been one chief of staff of donald trump. it's donald trump. it doesn't matter who he appoints. >> i was just going to say who cares, doesn't matter. >> that's a good friday sentiment to bring us out of this show. this is the who cares hour on msnbc. that does it for this hour. i'm john heilemann in for nicole wallace who will be back next week. god knows you're sick of me after only 57, 59 minutes. and i'm 36 seconds over which means chuck's going to be mad at me which is not the first time. but hi, chuck. how are you? >> that's all right.

hi, john. it's the holidays. if you watch a lot of tv advertising, you know that if you really please your friends, they find out that, oh, he went to jareds. maybe that's where the president went. we'll find out. >> who do you think it's going to be? >> i'm putting my money on bossy. >> that's not a bad choice. >> why not be bossy? he's already a bossy guy. >> be bossy. bye. >> all right. we're now a minute over. good-bye. if it's friday, the untruth is out there. good evening. i'm chuck todd here in washington. welcome to "mtp daily." we begin tonight with crimes, lies and investigations potentially pushing the presidency to the brink. to the brink of what? that's not yet clear. but we're going to use the "l" word tonight since the intent to deceive has now been made clear

by court testimony, audio recordings, and changing narratives. we're not one to throw the "l" word around a lot, but today we will. we hit a point where the president's legal team is admitting campaign felonies that implicate the president. the white house chose not to deny the allegations. here's what rudy giuliani told the daily beast. nobody got killed. nobody got robbed. this was not a big crime. and today the white house's defense against allegations that the president directed those payments didn't include denying that he directed those payments. >> michael cohen says that president trump did direct him to make those payments and he says there are documents to prove it. >> sure. but the fact i think the media is giving credence to a convicted criminal -- >> but he says there's proof. >> i understand. but the fact it's a self-admitted liar i. he's a self-admitted liar. for him to say i'm going to stop lying now, starting now is

somewhat silly. >> to be fair, the president himself has denied directing those payments. but folks, remember that the president lied about this crime. the white house lied about it. the trump campaign lied about it. and yes, michael cohen lied about it. we're going to trace the anotmy of those lies in a moment because they've taken the better part of two years to unravel. believe it or not, these crimes are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the legal exposure facing the administration which frankly has become mind numbing since there are now six different investigative entities, if you will, that are directly going after the president in some form or another. barbara quaid joins tonight's panel of geoff bennett, danielle lajae, and matthew coninani. but barbara, i want to start with you. your reaction as a u.s. attorney to hear a former u.s. attorney in rudy giuliani saying, they're

not big crimes? >> well, to suggest there are some crimes that are more significant than others i suppose has some truth in seriousness but that doesn't mean it doesn't count and you get a free pass. for one thing, there are civil matters in campaign violations. that happens when people are forgetting to dotcross a "t" ort an "i." this was what president trump sought to deceive. so it is a serious crime. and to hear a former u.s. attorney dismiss it as not so i think is disingenuous. >> i'm curious of your take of the president's legal exposure. right? you have the mueller probe. you have new york prosecutors not just with the michael cohen investigation and the stormy daniels issue, but also apparently the inaugural committee. then you have the new york attorney general examining the

trump foundation. you've got the lawsuits followed by the attorneys general on the emoluments clause. and there's a defamation lawsuit from a former apprentice c contestant that ties it back to there. you look at the totality of this. what's worse for the president? the totality of the legal exposure or are there one or two of these that are more of a nightmare than others? >> i think many of these will be easier to prove than the russia investigation. for example, the thing the state of new york is looking into, the abuse of the trump foundation for other than charitable purposes. i've seen cases like that. they're not that hard to put together. if they are solicitations put together, that's a pretty easy case of mail or wire fraud. that could be where he has the most exposure. but i think still where he faces the most potential harm is if there is evidence of coordination in election interference in russia. because it is just such a serious crime that addresses his

patriotism and his loyalty to the united states. it'll be very difficult, i think, for rudy giuliani or anyone to suggest that that is not a serious crime. >> well, the big news of the morning was michael cohen speaking out for the first time since he pled guilty. i want to play an excerpt of it. i'm curious as a former prosecutor what you make of him speaking out. let's listen to what he said to george stephanopoulos. >> he directed me to make the payments. he directed me to become involved in these matters. >> he was trying to hide what you were doing, correct? >> correct. >> and he knew it was wrong? >> of course. >> but you pleaded guilty to lying to congress. >> yes. >> so why should we believe you now? >> because the special counsel stated emphatically that the information that i gave to them was credible and helpful. there's a substantial amount of information that they possess that corroborates the fact that

i am telling the truth. >> if you were one of the prosecutors in the sdny right now, would you be happy he's speaking publicly? >> i would not. to the extent he wants to continue to cooperate, it's never good to have people out there speaking. it can create the impression he has some sort of bias or agenda to advance his own cause versus a cause for the truth. there's the worry that he could contradict himself in some minor way that could be used against him later. i'd rather he keep his mouth shut and speak through our pleadings. and the pleadings supports what he says which is his information has been corroborated by other evidence. they've said that it was useful and relevant. they sort sof sponsored that. with that being said, i would rather stick to the court filings and not to the words of michael cohen. >> let me bring the panel in here. we put together the anatomy of this coverup, if you will, and what they tried to do with stormy daniels. i'm going to go through five

different versions of events we have. the first response to these stories, number two was we knew nothing. this was hope hicks november of 2016. asked about these allegations, we have no knowledge of any of this. the second response to these allegations of paying off stormy daniels was, well, cohen did it. neither the trump campaign or organization was a party to the transaction with ms. clifford. this was before he was cooperating with prosecutors. then we heard from the president and the excuse was i knew nothing. take a listen from air force one. >> do you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make it if there was no truth to the allegation? >> you have to ask michael cohen. michael's my attorney. you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the

money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> well, that was not true from the president. he did not -- he of course knew about it. then yesterday in an interview with fox it became i didn't do it. >> let me tell you, i never directed him to do anything wrong. whatever he did, he did on his own. he's a lawyer. >> and of course by today it is so what. the rudy giuliani event. nobody got killed. nobody got robbed. this was not a big crime. i noticed today sarah sanders, geoff bennett went out of her way to not deny the story saying he was too busy taking the oath to be part of it. is the white house learning to not over-deny anymore? zblit appears. it's classic trump. you offer one version of events until it collapses on itself. then another until it collapses on itself. and you try to wait until the danger dissipates. i think the obvious parallel is the trump white house

explanation of the trump tower meeting back in june of 2016 when it was all about russian adoptions. then it was about getting dirt on hillary clinton. then it was don jr. came up with that explanation. then it was the president himself dictating it aboard air force one. to the heart of this matter, you have the time -- i'm talking about the hush money payments. you have the timeline. these alleged affairs happened years before the 2016 election. yet the payments were made in august 2016 and october 2016. why do that unless you were trying to influence the outcome of the election? >> matthew, i understand that the republican defense on capitol hill is, but these -- we're not going to impeach him for campaign finance crimes. but this is now evidentiary proof that he lies. does it chip away at his credibility over time? >> well, i think it's important to remember that trump's credibility has always been evaluated relative to other persons. right? so in 2016, trump's voters were aware of who he was, but they thought that hillary clinton was

even less credible. in fact, if you go back to the exit poll, many worried a clinton administration would be filled with investigation that would last forever. if you go into 2020 now as we're doing, with the president's credibility of lack thereof well established, who do the democrats nominate? and is that somebody who has a more pristine kind of record and can run as the candidate of integrity? are the democrats going to nominate a jimmy carter-like figure? >> that's exactly what they make of it. >> i think a lot just depends on what happens with these investigations in 2019 as the democrats are trying to figure out who their nominee is going to be. if mueller comes back with credible evidence that his campaign colluded with russia to change the outcome of the election, i think that's a game changer. and i think of course who the democrats put up matters, but that matters more. >> why have we set a bar of, well, let's see. as long as he doesn't commit -- as long as the crime wasn't working with the russians he can commit all these other crimes?

>> i don't say that, by the way. >> but is he -- i guess that's the bar he's trying to set for himself. do you think he's actually successfully set that bar? >> you have to separate the legal matters from the political matters. and the truth is, you have that justice department guidance that's been there for 40 years that says a sitting president can't be indicted. that is shielding him, i think. if the justice department continues to obey that guidance. on the other hand, there's the politics of it. and the truth is the democratic house could find anything to impeach him on. and they might have a grab bag of mueller and stormy daniels and whatever else in the inauguration. things are reaching a critical mass in terms of investigations. >> it does feel that way. >> and what has the white house so unnerved is perceived allies on the hill saying no man is above the law. i'm talking marco rubio or even orrin hatch. >> barbara mcquaid, everything i

put through here that went from we knew nothing to i know nothing, i didn't direct it, so what. if you wanted to indict the president, would that be enough? would that be included in your circumstantial evidence of it's clear he was trying to cover something up? >> i think it would. it would be part of the evidence. the hardest part of most white collar crimes isn't proving that the person did something. it's proving what their intent was which is usually an essential element of one of those. for campaign finance is willfulness. and one of the classic ways to prove they knew it was illegal is consciousness of guilt. that's proved by showing shifting stories. people lie when they feel like the truth is something that will get them into trouble. so that along with other evidence, what michael cohen said but also what other people said, this corroborating evidence i imagine includes the testimony of people like david pecker. it may include allen weisselberg. there may be documents. we know there's at least one

recording. when you couple all of those things together, i think you can put together a strong case of willfulness. >> i want to go to the michael cohen interview to the panel here for a minute. i think michael cohen wants to be john dean here. right? he wants to be john dean. is he succeeding? >> no. i don't think so. i mean, look. maybe if michael cohen wasn't out there during the campaign, maybe he wasn't such an attack dog for donald trump. maybe if he wasn't so closely tied to this family, maybe -- >> do you find him credible? you just painted a picture of a guy you remember as a partisan that you in some ways felt like you were competing against. now that he may be saying things you want to believe, do you find him believable? >> i mean, i find it believable to put it in the context of everything else that's happening. so, yes, i do. >> but you seem reluctant. >> well, i don't like the guy. i mean, trump manages to surround himself with not the best people. with people of questionable

moral ethics. no, i don't want to say i'm the biggest michael cohen fan. but that doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true. >> he has good insurance when those inevitably turn on you to have them be people who you can say well, they're not trustworthy. they're liars. which is what trump has done to cohen and omarosa when she turned on him as well earlier this year. cohen, i think, to really be a missile aimed at the heart of the trump presidency needs to somehow establish the intent to break the law with these payments. which even though it's clear from the recordings and things that trump has knowledge of it, whether we have the empirical evidence that he knew making this payment was breaking the law i think is still out for decision. >> and it means a great point that you both make. but this is not a case of he said/he said? because you have cohen under oath, under threat of perjury both saying that the payments were made to influence the

election. >> geoff bennett, the most curious thing this week has been the president -- i'm not surprised he's gone after cohen. how he's -- michael flynn has spoken hours in front of the special prosecutor. clearly has offered evidence. special prosecutor praising michael flynn for his cooperation and the president is very sympathetic to him or trying to come across sympathetic. is this out of fear? what is that? >> we cannot figure that out. it's curious, right? >> yeah. >> michael cohen does not have -- or rather michael flynn does not have the personal connection to donald trump that michael cohen -- too many michaels -- had. that might have something to do with it. also michael flynn joined the campaign at a time when few other establishment figures would. and he served a very key role as obviously national security adviser. but he offered that gravitas to the campaign trump was looking for at the time. maybe that has something to do

with it. >> some theories say he fears generals. barbara mcquaid, really quick, the justice department policy about indicting a sitting president didn't contemplate the idea that a person might commit a crime to get the presidency. do you think that some -- somebody's going to be ready to challenge this precedent or not under this justice department? >> i think it's possible, right? we know it's just an opinion. there's never been a supreme court case that has this holding. but i think robert mueller and rod rosenstein both are company men. they have worked for the department of justice. i don't think it's going to get tested. but i do think it is grounds for impeachment. the framers of the constitution, during the constitutional convention talked about fraud and the procurement of the presidency would be an appropriate grounds for impeachment if it could be proved. >> all right.

barbara, much appreciated. thank you for coming on, being our legal expert tonight. geoff, danielle, and matthew you have to stick around. up ahead, why have one investigation when you could have six? all the president's investigations next. when my hot water heater failed, she was pregnant, in-laws were coming, a little bit of water, it really- it rocked our world. i had no idea the amount of damage that water could do. we called usaa. and they greeted me as they always do. sergeant baker, how are you? they were on it. it was unbelievable. having insurance is something everyone needs, but having usaa- now that's a privilege. we're the baker's and we're usaa members for life. usaa. get your insurance quote today.

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replace general john kelly. then he says mick has done an outstanding job while in the administration. this is somebody who already wears a number of hats in the administration. he's the director of office management and before that he was a congressman. this is somebody who could potentially help donald trump see around the corners here as the house democrats take control in january and send a deluge of subpoenas to the west wing. >> acting is the buzzword there. who knows who demanded the acting? we don't have any word. >> remember nick ayers was supposed to be the acting. he didn't want to spend more than a few months in that. and the president wanted a two-year commitment. so all day we've seen -- all week we've seen people take their name off the list of consideration. mark meadows, chris christie. now mick mulvaney appears to be the last man standing. >> he was the acting head of the --

>> consumer protection financial board. >> right. but they have a new head of that. so i guess he only had -- he was down to one job for awhile. >> he needed more things to do. >> all right. matthew continetti, the president is using the word acting. what chief of staff isn't acting? meaning you serve at the pleasure of one person and one person only. but obviously something tells me that word mattered to one or both of them. >> absolutely. and maybe mulvaney was reluctant to hold the job -- >> he was wanting to seek it for years. >> we do know he has quite a job ahead of him. general kelly was successful when he came in the late summer of 2017. kind of -- >> was it one week or two weeks he had success? >> maybe a month. but after that, maybe a month or so. two months. right? there was a period where he had the flow of information to the president, traditional chief of staff job. not being able to manage who comes into the oval office and

who does not. >> then rob porter, the whole thing collapsed. >> the spring collapsed with porter. so you have to ask, is he going to try to reassert the authority of the chief of staff like general kelly had done with mixed success? or is he just going to be a facilitator and adviser to the president? >> what's been interesting is that mick mulvaney in the first six months of the administration was aggressively a public face of the administration. and then suddenly he wasn't. and i didn't understand. i don't know if he made any mistakes, i thought he was actually a pretty good surrogate for this white house compared to other folks that they had put out. >> yeah, the bar again is low with this administration. in terms of people who have a basic level of competency. he's been there. he's right up front. he can see what's happening in that oval office. maybe he's the one demanding. >> chris christie takes himself

out. nick ayers, by the way, i'm leaving the georgia today. i can understand why this is not an appealing job right now. he's already been through two. do we have that picture? i think we were going to do this later in the show. but the picture that reince priebus tweeted. we were going to tease it one year from now who will be the third person in this -- in the photo. it was from the white house christmas party. john kelly and ryaeince priebus here. but this is a thankless job. >> it is. history has predetermined the next guy's fate. this is what a source told us as we were trying to figure out who was in the running to be chief of staff. and this used to be the pinnacle of one's career. anybody who has watched the sort of unceremonious departures of john kelly and reince priebus, you see how donald trump undercuts these people who he hires. but when they sort of emerge as

an obstacle to him or a rival to his primacy, then they're expendable. zb >> possibly could be acting f for -- through 2020. i mean, this is not -- >> certainly through, yeah, until january 2020 or so. even in a typical presidency, chief of staff, year and a half is about the average tenure. so this is accelerated with the atypical presidency of donald tru trump. >> i think the downside to mick mulvaney -- you know, it's funny. on paper john kelly never made sense as a chief of staff. he's never been in an election campaign. he had some interactions as a liaison. but not political shots. mulvaney is actually not somebody that has been involved in national campaigns. you know, he was a congressman from an area that was easy to

win. so that may be another reason why he's just acting. that he's not the partner that you need in a re-election year. >> i think they're just stalling for time who will actually say i'm not going to put all that other stuff aside. anything i've seen that happened over the past couple of months, i will come here to this thankless job. they walked into the white house with pretty good reputations. again, i don't agree with any of their policies. but they had good standing. and he just undercut them and they walk out. like, it's bad. >> for what it's worth, i believe this is the fourth budget director since i've been covering presidents that has moved from the budget director to the chief of staff. leon panetta went to chief of staff of george w. bush. i think jack lew was budget director and then ended up as chief of staff. there is a reason budget directors get picked. mick mulvaney has a familiarity

with every aspect of federal government. so for being the conductor, he's perfectly -- he's got the perfect job to learn. >> right. and it's also true that the short list wasn't all that long. so white house officials we talked to really waved us off the notion jared kushner was a serious contender. >> bossy was the front runner to me an hour ago. >> inside the west wing he was seen as a polarizing figure. he never really won jared and ivanka. which you need to be chief of staff. >> there's one director of communications. there's one political director in this white house. and they are all named donald j. trump. >> pure and simple. he is better off. this might be what he -- it's an acting chief of staff. but you know what? his office will be in the eisenhower building anyway. all right. we're going to pause here. does every vote count? oh, boy, does it.

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all right. forget kevin costner. tonight i'm obsessed with the truth about voting. every vote counts. you need proof? let me tell you the story of a town called hoxie, arkansas.

population 2,780. two candidates were battling it out for a seat on the city council. control room, election music, please. meet incumbent becky linebaugh and cliff farmer. neither got a majority of the vote. then there was a runoff election last tuesday. linebaugh and farmer ended up tied 223-223. but here's the thing, farmer did not vote in either election. work conflicts kept him away from the polls, he says. so that one vote could have been the one to break the tie leading to his victory. we may never know. what we do know is how this election battle ended. linebaugh and farmer broke the tie with, of course, a roll of the dice. and they did so on thursday. farmer rolled a four.

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the company national enquirer kn -- and reports they're looking into illegal donations to the inaugural committee. talk about hitting the ground running. with me now is bob bower. he was white house counsel under president obama and is now at the nyu school of law. all right. i wanted to do a few things. there a white house counsel is not the lawyer for the president, he's for the seat of the presidency. what -- how do you handle -- how would you handle this incoming as a white house counsel when you have the inaugural committee, emoluments clause, and all this? walk us through this. >> i want to begin by saying i want to impose and i think it's

impossible. time has proven this will not happen to impose legal hygiene. it begins with the president's own statements, tweets, comments on air force one as in your previous segments. just in the last week, he's continued to do so much damage to his legal position because he can't stop talking about the case. he can't stop attacking the prosecutors. he can't stop contradicting himself. so he makes the situation more and more damaging. and if you can't get that under control, there's probably nothing else you can do to protect him. he is without a doubt the most horrible defendant in government service. >> what role will the new white house counsel be playing and how much of that does he farm out to emmitt flood who i think is in a west wing office but more assigned to the personal case? how do you -- how does that incoming come? i know you have some familiarity

at least how it worked in the '90s. >> some is inappropriately handled because it would involve questions directed at him as president of the united states. others will have to do with the personal legal affairs. and the white house counsel will want to keep that separate. flood is in the scandal business but he's a government employee. rudy giuliani is in the scandal business but he's a personal lawyer to the president. as questions come in, somebody has to act as the coordinator to make sure that the right lawyers within the right fear are answering the questions. >> let's take the inauguration committee. this is something that has to do with perhaps he may have taken as president after the committee. we don't know. where does that fall? is that a white house counsel issue or an emmitt flood/rudy giuliani issue? >> it is likely to be a flood and giuliani issue. i think the white house counsel is going to wind up -- and i don't know this because i don't know how he looks at what he's going to do. but there's an awful lot that the white house counsel has to do just to represent the office

of the president on a day-to-day basis. so the purpose of having a flood there is to pick up the scandal sector, the heavy investigations, the congressional oversight. and then what can't be handled there and has to be handled personally is handled by the personal lawyers. my view is that what the white house counsel will do in this case is make sure everybody is operating with their own sphere that he will reserve for his own time the duties of the white house counsel as much as he possibly can. >> all right. but how about the emoluments case? it does about the rules of the office of the presidency, doesn't that become a white house counsel issue? does that mean the white house counsel in that sense would he be representing the office of the presidency in any, say, deposition that the maryland attorney general may seek? >> highly unlikely that he'd be in the deposition, but as you point out, these are toefs shl

issues also there on the emoluments clause and whether it reaches donald trump's business activities the way he's organized them. those constitutional questions are one that the white house counsel would be involved. if they were more specific questions, take the inauguration committee, in whether there were donors for whom national contributions were made. those questions are questions i don't believe they would be involved with in a granular way. >> let's go big picture here. one of the quiet whispers i hear around town particularly in legal circles is the president should have better legal representation than he has. whatever you think of him, he should have the best. this is -- you know, he shouldn't just have the best he can get because of his popularity in the town. do you think hes getting good legal representation or do you think it's impossible for him to get good legal representation because of what you stated earlier? he is not a good client. >> let me put it to this way as diplomatically as i can because

i don't want to call out individual lawyers whose work i'm not familiar with on a day-to-day basis. we'll begin with what an impossible client he is. and so in that sense right away, it will limit the number of people who will work for him and the ability of those who do work for him to work for him successfully. there is no question that i would have picked somebody with a different profile than rudy giuliani. certainly do not agree with giuliani's public messaging role. but there may be other tasks. i can't see what they would be. >> question about bill barr. bill barr the nominee to be the president's pick to be the next attorney general, he reportedly also at least had one meeting with the president about replacing john dowd to be essentially the lead lawyer in the scandal business as we've been separating these things. >> yes. >> based on your experience of how recusal laws -- the recusal process works in the justice

department, do you think that would be enough to force or at least recommend a recusal? >> i suspect it depends on the content of the conversation. what he knew when he was called to meet the president that he didn't want to take the job. provided they did not discuss the case, provided they didn't get into the details, and that it was simply a question of telling the president i don't believe this is an appropriate role for me to play in your administration, then i don't think he likely faces a significant issue. if it got more complicated, then i would be concerned. if they discuss robert mueller's investigation, the deficiencies, the olc opinions whatever, then i think that mr. barr's decision to accept the nomination would be problematic. >> bob bauer, thanks for bringing expertise on how the office works. it's good to have that. thanks. coming up, is beto o'rourke going to run for president? wait until you hear this, because today he sounded like a

candidate. that's next.

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who has not the slightest respect for our norms, our traditio traditions, our institutions, civility, decency in public life. where you can say anything that you want to from the highest perch of power in this land. >> there was a lot more that he said about the eventual person that may be running against the president. beto o'rourke in a town hall today. it appears many democrats hope he does indeed run because he now leads the democratic field in a new straw poll. he's currently third nationally among democrats in a new cnn poll trailing only to two guys with the most name recognition. keep in mind, we know these early polls -- jeb bush was the early leader with chris christie back in 2014 in that poll. but still, but still the fact

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time now for the lid. president trump and people in his orbit face not one, not two, not three, not four, not five but at least six different investigations. collectively looking into the trump transition, the trump white house, the trump inauguration, the trump organization, the trump family, and of course trump associates and then there's the president himself. he's been accused of directing two campaign felonies and also the subject of crimes against the election. panel's back. when you look at the -- what is the worst aspect of this, matthew? the totality or the individual

aspects of this for the president? is there one that's just awful or is it actually good for him there's so many of them? >> no, i think it's the totality of them and the scandals have proliferated to such an extent their locking any attempt the president might change the conversation in washington and try to get back to the core issues that motivated his campaign. and you can see he's even unclear how to do gnat in this budget showdown as well. that's the problem with these investigations, the sense of losing control on the part of the white house, which for better or worse certainly in their first year of office was really setting the policy agenda in washington. >> you'll talk to anyone about clinton in the second term and they'll say he didn't get one. >> and i agree with matthew. i think it's the totality because one investigation may

fall out of the news cycle and then something else happens. and while it may be hard for us to follow along i think you're right, for president trump and the administration it's a constant barrage. so whatever that agenda might be, they can't get it in motion. >> however, if you were to pick one of the investigations you just outlined i think it would be the michael cohen case. and this week i think we're seeing in realtime that the president's allies and friends have been saying all along the cohen case poses political and legal risk to the president than it does the overall russia investigation. so you have people like crist christy who said on sunday the president, the white house is in big trouble. and jerry nadler, the incoming chairman of the house judiciary committee already making clear this could be an impeachable offense. >> i think it does say something that orrin hatch, you brought him up earl, where he had this oh, i don't care, it doesn't matter, things are going well

and then he felt the need to put out a statement to walk it back. how would you read that matthew? if you're the white house, should you start to go, wait a minute, do we have republicans looking for distance and we need to be prepared for the fact that all of a sudden our support could collapse? >> i do think you could look at the events in the senate the past couple of weeks and even the big names are retiring the senate is beginning to show some separation from the trump white house. you look at the vote on yemen, for example, and the repudiation how the white house has handled the fall out from the khashoggi assassination. and also in a weird way tom cotton kind of rallying a last ditch effort in the criminal justice reform, that would lead to criminals getting out early before their time is served. you begin to see there and then you add hatch's walk back so

closely tied to judiciary and issues -- i think senator hatch knew he needed to walk that back. but in whole you do see i think the beginnings of senators in particular more willing to criticize the president. >> you know, the president's power over congressional republicans has been fear of the primary voter, right? fear of the president's base. they do look a little less fearful. >> i think they're still scared. we'll see what happens. but i think they looked at what happened in november and maybe the lesson they're learning is the president's coattails are going to be a lot shorter and it would behoove them to stake out some ground. >> when you combine everything you said about the senate showing new independence, republicans in the senate, and add to that all the people taking their names off the list to be contenders for white house

chief of staff and then that extraordinary display in the oval office with chuck schumer and nancy pelosi. needling him. you see overall trump's waning influence. >> there's a proverb about the straw and the camel for a reason, matthew, right? i mean any one of these now it does feel as if this camel is gasping for breath of everything it's carrying, and it's like how much more can the party take. >> you have to remember january resets the table because democrats are now invested in control of the house. >> do you see that as an asset of the president short-term? >> it's a potential asset because he could triangulate and start to pick fights. i'm not saying he will, but i'm saying he could do it. frustration republicans have is that there are ways to handle

the situations he faces. he's just not doing it. >> it goes back to if he'd be a better client maybe his lawyers could be better lawyers on behalf of their client. happy friday, well-done. thank you, panel. we'll be right back. life isn't a straight line. things happen. and sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. but at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow.

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aisle we'll hear from roy blunt of missouri and plus william castro on his first interview since he filed his papers. good evening. >> hey, good evening, chuck. i bet you thought you'd make it through the hour without any break news, right? >> it's just acting chief of staff these days -- >> i was going to say the odds are against you. in for ari melber. and tonight a storm of investigations slamming into donald trump on multiple fronts. and late today trump announcing a new point man to help deal with it all. current trump budget director nick mulvaney will be new chief of staff and he will be facing a deluge of investigations immediately from day one. his appointment coming just hours after michael cohen spoke out for the first time since his sentence rebutting key claims made by the president. and as newly surfaced audio of donald trump obliterates his own defense on hush