that does it for me today. thank you very much for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reed starts right now. >> he says he directed me to do it and, oh, my goodness. he directed me. he's a lawyer. he's the guy you depend on to determine whether or not you should do it this way or that way. >> this is a guy who stood up in court and said i was fiercely loyal to donald trump. that's why i did it. no, he wasn't. he was taping him, lying to him. his client. that's outrageous. can you imagine how a jury will react to that? good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy."

donald trump's tv lawyer is back on the air waves this morning try to defend his client against a spiraling list of scandals and legal jeopardy. donald trump's campaign, his businesses, his inaugural committee and his family are all under federal criminal investigation. and robert mueller closed in on one of trump's most trusted allies, including his former fixer and now convicted felfelo michael cohen. >> first of all, nothing at the trump organization was ever done unless it was run through mr. trump. he directed me, as i said in my allocation and i said it as well in the plea. he directed me to make the payments. he directed me to becoming involved in these matters. >> meanwhile, a new nbc news wall street journal poll signals more trouble ahead for donald trump with 62% of americans say

they don't believe he's being truthful about the russia investigation. jill, you have the disadvantage. you are not at the table with us. i will start with you. rudy giuliani makes the point that michael cohen is a lawyer, which he is, and that he should have known better than to commit crimes, even if his client was inducing him to do it. this is what giuliani had to say about whether or not the payments themselves to -- i guess payments in order to quiet down the story of karen mcdougal were legal. take a listen. >> now think about this. suppose he tried to use his campaign funds to pay off stormy daniels. it would be totally illegal. if it's not a campaign expense, it can't be a campaign contribution. >> but the corporate contributions would be clearly. >> no, it would not be. it is not a contribution. you do not pursue a president of the united states for a

questionable interpretation of the statute. that is completely wrong. it's harassment. this is -- this special prosecutor was there for collusion. then he went to obstruction. campaign finance. >> jill winebanks, rudy giuliani is always a lawyer and a former prosecutor. did anything he just said make any sense? >> it makes no sense. it is incorrect. no matter how often he repeats it, it will not be true. no matter how often the president says no collusion, no obstruction and it was legal and i didn't know about it and if i did know about it, it was someone else's fault, it is not going to make it true. he has committed crimes in coordination with other people. he is right, michael cohen should have known it was illegal. but so should the president of the united states. the president is charged with being responsible for all the laws of america, and if he doesn't know what's right and wrong and what's legal and not,

that means he's not competent to be the president. so he's really, honestly just talking nonsense. >> i'm sorry to interrupt you because the question is, a, nobody has alleged that donald trump used campaign funds to pay off stormy daniels, so that's a red herring. no one has alleged that at all. but just to be clear, the fact that donald trump was involved in a scheme to suppress the stories of women who in his mind their stories could stop him from being elected and that money changed hands to suppress those stories, is that or is that not illegal? >> it is. but let's also look at the fact that it doesn't have to be money that was donated to the campaign and then came out of campaign coffers. if someone paid for the benefit of the campaign out of corporate

funds, that is an illegal contribution because it was meant to help the campaign. and there seems to be no question. both david pecker and michael cohen have said, we made these payments to help the campaign. the timing of it is obvious. these were old affairs where the women were looking to possibly get some publicity and benefit, financial benefit, out of selling the story right before the election. and they didn't want it to come out right before the election, right after the access hollywood tape had already raised the issue of his sexual misconduct. >> uh-huh. >> so they paid off the women to keep the public from knowing the facts and voting based on phony information. so it is definitely illegal. it's a violation of the campaign laws, and it's a serious violation. this isn't misstating some bookkeeping entry. it isn't an accident. this was deliberate, and they

used hidden corporations to hide the money. everything about it just reeks of crime. this is the kind of stuff when i was an organized crime prosecutor before watergate. this is the kind of stuff i saw mafia doing. that's what they were doing. >> yeah. and tim o'brian, there is sort of a concerted effort on the part of kgiuliani to pretend these are minor things. but we remember, this is not independent counsel. it is a special counsel. but when bill clinton was investigated initially for a land deal, it went all the way to monica lewinsky. prosecutors can go anywhere they find crimes. the mueller probe is just one. there is hush money payments. there is the trump inaugural committee overcharging for his hotels. there is lawsuits and potential violations of the emoluments

clause. there are a lot of crimes being investigated here. >> right. what we have learned from these documents is that there is the very real possibility that the trump campaign was a criminal conspiracy from its beginnings and that that bled into the trump transition where various criminal acts might have been committed. now you have the trump white house dealing with the consequences of all of these. when you have rudy giuliani distracting people, focussing only on campaign finance issues, focussing inaccurately on campaign finance issues, it distracts from this larger halo of illegality hanging over this entire trump team. and, you know, trump and his advisers have put out three defenses in the wake of cohen's sentencing memo that michael cohen cannot be trusted. he is a dishonest narrator, that he was giving the president advice and it wasn't the other way around and none of it had anything to do with the

election. you can pick apart on the fact pattern all three of those things. specifically, it had nothing to do with the election and that it was cohen taking advice from trump, rather than trump being the architect of those of these issues. michael cohen is irrelevant because they will not rely on only his testimony. they have tape recordings. they have e-mail. they have other witnesses. these are smart, veteran prosecutors who are assembling a case and michael cohen is a small part of that. you know, i think one of the amazing things that has emerged in the last couple weeks is trump comes out of this like dirty ikaris. and everything from his past that he had buried in his business, in his family life, in his campaign, in the transition into the white house is now coming back to haunt him. >> i feel like i had this conversation with you during the campaign. >> years ago. >> that trump might live to regret wanting to become

president because the presidency is a glass fish bowl and that everything comes out. >> right. i was thinking when jill pointed out earlier that trump is the nation's chief law enforcement official, it is tragic and ironic is someone who has never had much respect of the law or knowledge of the law and has been willing to skirt the law and brought in advisers to help him accomplish that. those people are turning on him now. possibly his accountant and possibly his own lawyers. >> remember in the michael wolfe book, it was said by steve bannon that there were hundreds of women and the through line to this is that, or appears to be, that donald trump wanted the presidency very badly for whatever reason. he also wanted to make money with a tower in moscow that would have required sanctions to be relaxed and that in order to get the presidency and ensure he could make that money, he wanted to make sure none of these women's stories got in the way.

it is not a complicated story, but his side is trying to make it sound like this is just tax stuff. >> no. it's actually very simple and it all goes back to his greed and narcissism, right? he launched the campaign to begin with, not because he really wanted to be president but because he wanted the publicity for his organization. >> right. >> that is the reason why he was pursuing this trump tower moscow deal and why all the people around him thought they had this enormous leverage to finally get that deal they wanted for decades in russia that never materialized. now that he was a candidate, it all seemed to be coming together. one of the things is they promised russia to lift sanctions because it benefits us and my ability to build a real estate property in russia. that is only really going to work if we loosen the sanctions because of, you know, having to get financing through a russian bank, for example. it all fits together. the idea that he may have

compromised the interests of the united states in order to pursue a financial opportunity in russia is arguably way more serious than the campaign violations he committed in the waiting days of the campaign because he was so desperate to get the presidency and have all the power behind him of course that comes with that. >> yep. >> i also think it is important to realize that michael cohen, going back to this defense that he's not a reliable narrator, no, he's not. but up until this point, he has been a confirmer, rather than an actual cooperator. they said he's not really provided new information to us, but he's given us corroborating information. >> right. >> that confirms everything that we already know. so that should be very worrying to the president. >> yep. >> because it is very clear that they have recordings, documents, other witnesses like the chief financial officer of the trump organization who is talking to them and telling them not just about the campaign finance violations but all of the decades past of what the russians and other, you know,

foreign entities have been doing with regard to the trump organization. >> absolutely. to the point where they hired paul manafort to go, you know, do the convention for them, the man who was accused of dirty dealings in the election in ukraine, which was russia's tributary. it is now clear whatever else is true, the public does not believe donald trump. donald trump, according to this new poll, do you believe the guilty pleas of trump's associates are just about the wrongdoing of these individuals, or does this support there is potential wrongdoing by trump himself? 48% say by donald trump. one more. well, there is another part of the poll that asks whether or not what they're hearing, what people are hearing makes them more or less dubious of donald trump. it makes them more dubious. >> that poll is interesting to me because i think one of the challenges bob mueller has faced throughout this is whether he would end up with a narrative that would be understood and believable and have traction

with middle america and most americans because it involves foreign policy. it's got financial complexities. there are people willing to give trump the benefit of the doubt. now you have a lot of detailed paperwork that lays out a damning fact pattern. polls like this suggest that some of this really is starting to reside in people's understanding of what's occurred and that that's something, i think, the trump team really has to worry about because up to this point trump's greatest strength is being able to control the narrative via twitter and television. and the narrative the shifting. >> absolutely. jill, this is one of the things that we go back and talk about nixon. he did retain some support to the very end. but in the current iteration and trump is further along down the time line of where nixon wound up before he resigned. per our poll, 50% more doubts.

31% major doubts. only 4.4% saying that it has not given them for doubts. his approval rating stays pretty steady. you know, almost 6/10 saying the country is on the wrong track. it is downhill when it comes to the way the public perceives him at this point, jill. >> it definitely is. and richard nixon start eed out with a landslide election. he won 49 states, the popular vote everywhere. he, in the end, lost total believability because the evidence was factual, because people actually started to believe it. it is a cumulative effect. they may not accept one thing and they may say, oh, but he's doing this well, so i'll forgive him for that or oren hatch saying i don't care if he lies, which people should care if he lies. but even if they don't,

eventually the mounting evidence is going to topple him because people will, like the juror in the manafort case, paula duncan said i think this is a witch hunt and a hoax, but the facts were the facts. the evidence is real and i voted to convict him on all 18 counts. >> yeah. >> i think at some point people will say enough is enough. individual number one is guilty and should be indicted. >> yeah. i mean, the difference between -- the reason that this is nixon and not, you know, clinton or john edwards is these are not lies to conceal a sexual affair from your family. they're lies to obtain the presidency, which is the through line to what nixon did. it is to try to ensure the presidency is the reason for the lies. what is your pin, jill? >> it is a number one for individual number one. >> you're always on point, my friend. thank you all very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, the republicans'

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simple. easy. awesome. stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. . i think it is really important to begin with no matter what i do in a few moments, whether i sign all three bills as they are, whether i use a line item veto for a portion of one of the bills where it's technically possible

or whether or not i were to veto that, no matter what happened in each of these three scenarios that people have talked about, all these things remain consistent. and that is the overwhelming executive authority that i, as governor have today will remain constant with the next governor. >> one of the increasingly definie ining features of your si ticks is one party embraces it when they win. on friday scott walker showed he didn't understand how a venn diagram works. he also signed a slate of bills passed by the republican legislature that will slash incoming democratic governor's powers. evers says he's considering his next move. >> now that this legislation has been signed, i will be reviewing our options and will do everything we can to make sure the people of this state are not

ignored or overlooked. >> and then there is michigan, where outgoing governor rick snyder signed bills that watered down a minimum wage increase desired by a majority of the state's voters as well as a paid sick leave measure. both these cases are disturbing indications that in the words of author george packer, writing in the atlantic, the republican party has become less a political party than an insurgency, engaged in, quote, the pursuit and abuse of power. power as an end in itself justifying almost any means. and joining me now is charlie sykes and scott ross. thank you all for being here. scott, i will start with you. this lame duck legislation signed in your state does the following, despite that not --

that incorrect venn diagram. it limits the early voting, dropping it from six weeks down to two. it gives the legislature more power over the board. it limits the incoming governor's ability to change the state's work requirement laws. it stops the incoming attorney general from withdrawing the state from a federal lawsuit against the affordable care act. let me let you listen really quickly to the wisconsin speaker. this is back on december 5th discussing the proposals that slash the powers of the incoming governor. >> we're going to have every opportunity to find common ground. that's going to happen. we have to. we have to work together. but i also know that the situation that we are sitting in right now, if we do not pass these proposals, is that we are going to have a very liberal governor who is going to enact policies that are in direct contrast to what many of us believe in. >> let me -- scott, that's a

pretty shocking statement. i mean, the incoming governor is going to pass laws we don't believe in. therefore, he must not have any power. that doesn't sound like a firm belief in democracy. >> absolutely, joy. what is going on in wisconsin is unprecedented. it is undemocratic and unconstitutional and really un-american. the voters spoke on november 6th. they spoke loudly and clearly. they wanted the change. there was six democrats on the side-wide ballot and all six won. now these sore losers led by scott walker are going back in to try and un-do the will of the people. most notably they are attacking the right to vote. we had record early voting in wisconsin. 20% of the voting population went out and early voted. they are attacking early voting and they are doing so at their own legal peril because a federal judge ruled these attacks on early voting were absolutely racially d

discriminato discriminatory. we'll see you in court, governor walker. >> this was done in north carolina a couple of years ago when the democrats won back the govern governorship. they gutted the governor's powers saying if we don't win, then the governor must have no power. this has been repeated in wisconsin. repeated in michigan as well. "the new york times" had a piece on december 6th titled "are rural voters the real voters"? wisconsin republicans seem to think so. it quotes the speaker of the house drawing a distinction between these two voters, saying if you took madison and milwaukee out of the state election formula, we would have a clear majority. we would have had all five constitutional officers and probably more seats in the legislature. well, you cannot take these two states, madison and milwaukee, without of the state. and the idea that they don't count essentially, that only the

will of rural voters really matters and that we must rule no matter what the voters in those two big cities say strikes me as dramatically anti-democracy. what do you think? >> well, i think scott walker's really bad ve in, n diagram suggests all of this wasn't thought out too well. this is not the death of democracy. i wrote a piece for the atlantic urging scott walker to veto all of this saying, look, this looks petty, vindictive. it will backfire. the restrictions on early voting will be ruled unconstitutional, i think, by a federal court. at the end of the day, it is just not worth it. this is worse than a crime. it is a blunder because, of course, now the republicans look like they are sore losers, which, in fact, they are behaving like they are sore losers. and they get very, very little for this. at the end of the day, was this worth it? and the answer is no. and particularly adding to this

theme of after the fact trying to restrict the early voting, they're going to get nothing for it, but they will have this national conversation that we're having today about do republicans actually want to suppress the vote? and they are feeding into that narrative. so it is very much a self-inflicted wound. >> you know, it sounds like the answer to that is yes because at every turn you're seeing republicans consistently over the years restricting early voting, which is used primarily of voters of color saying that -- scott walker would have never signed that legislature for himself, to limit his own powers, only because it is a democrat. this idea that they have a right to rule, that republicans give themselves the right to rule, not just in that state. let's go to florida. the governor-elect ron desantis has decided that an overwhelmingly approved amendment that restored the right to vote not so much. we're not going to implement

that. he wants implementing language. >> there needs to be implementing language. i don't see any way around that. regardless of you want it to be implemented tomorrow or whether you are trying to frustrate it. there is a law we have to pass in order to comply with this amendme amendment. >> this was passed by 65% of florida. and this incoming republican governor says, i don't care. we're going to implement it the way we say. >> yeah. i mean, and i have to tell you, joy, when you look at that, when you look at what's happening in wisconsin and in michigan and what has happened in north carolina, i have to sort of disrespect the -- respectfully say that i disagree with charlie. i believe that this is the death of democracy. what we are witnessing, in my opinion, is the republican party rejecting every single basis,

every single thing we have seen the country based on simply because they lose. some of these measures, for example, the separation of the three branches of government were written in state constitutions like in michigan as early as 1776 and now under the guise of quote, unquote "good governance" republicans are deciding that the will of the people no longer matters. the united states government has had a history of looking at elections in countries that we would call tyrannical in one nature or the other and now we are basically saying that wasn't a tyranny because we're doing it in the united states. it's okay. there are people that believe in 2020 if donald trump loses the presidential election he's not going to leave. and the fact that we don't see any republicans at the federal level saying that what's happening in these states is wrong could be something that pretends what is going to happen at the national level in 2020.

>> you have the hiring of this mccray dallas character maybe throwing the ballots in the bin, throwing them in the trash saying those voters don't have a right to vote. you have this consistent pattern, north carolina, wisconsin, michigan of saying if democrats win, they don't get to govern. you had the president of the united states, current, saying well, i didn't really lose the popular vote. let's find the three million people who voted illegally because it's not possible that i lost the popular vote. it feels like a consistent pattern of saying democracy isn't legitimate unless republicans win. >> no. and that's of course the impression that they're giving. when i say democracy is not dead, there is no question democracy is under attack, but i think it is resilient. what happened in north carolina is probably one of the most egregious cases of election fraud that we have seen in a long time. it is interesting how the president tried to make a big deal about voter fraud. but here you have the clear

theft of votes, the suppression of votes. this is criminal. it will result in a new election. but, again, this is why we need to be vigilant. one of the things we have discovered in the era of trump is these constitution norms and democratic values are a lot more fragile than we thought. here we have a moment where we are going to test those institutions, we're going to test those democratic values and right now i think republicans, in all of those states, have lined up on the wrong side of that question. >> very quickly, scott, your organization, one wisconsin now, is suing? >> yes. we will be taking legal action, along with the support of former attorney general eric holders' national redirecting foundation. we will be protecting the right to vote. we won in 2016. we expect we will prevail again, but we will fight vigilantly. >> please keep us posted on how that is going. we thank you very much. we'll be back in our next hour. coming up next, a first look

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you want to from the highest perch of power in this land. >> beto o'rourke may have lost his senate race against ted cruise in texas and he's yet to declare if he's running for president -- he's totally running for president -- but beto-mania shows no signs of slowing down. when iowa democrats were asked which candidate would be their choice for president, former vice president joe biden came out on top, followed by bernie sanders with beto rounding out the top three. joining me now to discuss is senior political editor for msnbc and jason johnson and e.j. deone. >> you have been to iowa. how real is it? >> it's real. people are excited about beto. people want to be inspired.

they want to be excited. we have too many in the past eat your peas candidates. mitt romney in 2012 was an eat your peas candidate. people want to feel inspired. but beto has not done any outreach in iowa at all. he is getting people reaching out to him. meanwhile, the top tier we are looking at, they are intensively in talks with people in iowa trying to develop a staff, develop a network. beto is really holding back. he is waiting to be wooed into this race, rather than steam rolling in. >> just quickly to stay with you, in 2006 just for context because a lot of this is anymore i.d. john edwards topped this same poll. then in 2018 you have got again name i.d. joe biden is at the top. bernie sanders and then beto.

then you have got elizabeth w warr warren. it strikes me that all these are white candidates. >> there are -- there's a real desire to have a person of color obviously on the ticket. and my reporting of iowans seeing kamela harris there, people are excited about her in theory. they are waiting for it to become reality. corey booker has been all over the place. he has been in iowa, south caroli carolina, new hampshire last week. he's very, very actively in this fight, even though he's not eventually declared. he's done good work cult nating grass roots in all of these places. but people are still waiting to see if he's got the factor to make people excited and to unify around him which is the thing that beto has more than anyone else. >> the momentum matters. it does help you. jason johnson, the polling

that we have here, do you think that the person to defeat donald trump will be more of a political newcomer or more of a seasoned political hand. 36% say they think lit be a newcomer. 15% say not sure. i'm not sure what that means. but it sounds like it would be helpful to biden. you have said on this beto/biden thing, you have a definitive take on this. you said nobody should be talking about beto and gillem in 2020 until we understand stacey abrams in 2018. >> if you look at what she accomplished in georgia, but what she accomplished there is something that needs to be looked at. she may not be traditional or the seasoned hand that people are looking for, but why not? she managed to get incredible

numbers amongst white voters. i think the most important thing for democrats to think about heading into 2020 because i don't think anyone should be the preordained coronation kind of person is the more people you have running the better because you dominate the news cycle. i want there to be 15, 20 democrats. i want them to be fighting. i want this to be hunger games for weeks. >> you will probably get 20, 30. >> that's the hope. and that list should include terry mccollum and stacey abrams. we can't get so excited about beto or biden or gillum or others. >> i look at a poll that says the democrats when they are asked what is the most important thing to you, beat trump or that the person shares your values, right? so 54% in this same poll say the

most important thing is that the winner of the iowa democratic caucus have a strong chance to beat trump. it is what people care about, beat trump. that's it, rather than shares my values on major issues, right? >> right. >> what people are looking for is something that says, i can beat trump. to me, the first step is being able to win two of these first four contests, being able to win two of four, iowa, new hampshire, nevada, right or at least one of those first three. so when i look at all this 20-some odd candidates, i don't see 18 of them that fit that bill, that could do that. beto has the advantage, including south carolina, that's four, he seems like somebody that could win two of the four. isn't that important to whittle that out early? >> i do think it is important, joy, but here is the problem. you always fail. the outparty always fails when the most important thing is beating the incumbent. that's how you get mitt romney.

because you don't vote for the person you are passionate about. that's how you lose, right? so the democrats need to think less about somebody who can beat trump. trump may beat himself, right? they need to think about somebody that will inspire them and be passionate. i say this all the time. there is a difference between a viable candidate and being an electable candidate, which means you can beat the incumbent, right? i think beto is an electable candidate. i think he could beat donald trump. i don't think if i think he's viable yet. if he doesn't have the ground work, if he can't put together a more effective campaign, he's not going to be a viable candidate and then people will be all disappointed. >> all right. let's go to e.j. because you wrote a book called one nation after trump. it is now on you to tell us which of these candidates get the country to a nation after trump. in your view, is there a front runner? should there be a front runner at this point?

>> i don't think there is a front runner, and i want to make a case for pundit humility at this case and for consumer caution. >> what is that? >> just think about it. you just showed those numbers from a few years ago. i looked up today, at this point in the 2016 race, cnn had a national poll. first jed bush, krekd chris cristie, third ben carson. donald trump was nowhere. and just on this show a couple of weeks ago i said i didn't think beto was going to run. a few weeks later, i think beto wants to run and we will have to change our minds. i think there are three dynamics here and you have already underscored two of them. one is ideology versus who can win. i agree with jason that there is a limit on our capacity to know for certain who can win, but that will effect how people think about this race. and so some elizabeth warren or

bernie sanders people might say, maybe i should look at beto or someone else if i think they have a better shot at winning. after trump, winning matters to democrat. second, new and exciting versus known and experienced. beto. corey booker. >> lastly, i think democrats in iowa and new hampshire are like party bosses. they think really hard about strategic questions. i think the big strategic question is think about winning back the midwest, in which case others rise. or do you think about breaking through in the sun belt? and that's beto. it's abrams. it's a lot of other candidates, maybe kamela harris.

i think those are the thoughts in democrats heads right now. >> absolutely. we will keep this going because we love this. by the way, our facebook group loves it even more. it is what they want to talk about literally every time we do a facebook blast. more "a.m. joy" after the break. having moderate to severe plaque psoriasis is not always easy. it's a long-distance journey, and you have the determination to keep going. humira has a proven track record of being prescribed for over 10 years. humira works inside the body to target and help block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to symptoms. most adults taking humira were clear or almost clear and many saw 75% and even 90% clearance in just 4 months. and the kind of clearance that can last. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal, infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions and new or worsening heart failure.

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all right. my panel is back for more discussion about the crowded field of potential democratic candidates. beth, we were talking at the table about a bunch of stuff. let's talk really quickly about what florida and georgia, the results there did to the democratic electorate whampt did it do to the psyche of democrats? >> the three big -- the candidates were stacey abrams in georgia, andrew gillum and beto. all three of them lost. why is it that people are talking about beto as the presidential hopeful and not williams and abrams. they can't possibly move on in a national way where beto can. i disagree. they were both excellent candidates but there are some

viability issues there by virtue of the fact that they are not as well known as beat toto. he was running for the senate. he was running against ted cruz. that enabled him to be very well known throughout the country among democratic activists and to raise the kind of money you need to be a viable candidate in all of those four states. also in california which has moved up its primary to march 3rd, they're going to have early voting a month ahead of that. >> yes. >> you need a candidate that can play in the biggest state in the country. that requires somebody that has that national fundraising, national exposure. of those three, gillum, abrams, beto o'rourke, he has that. >> this is why i disagree with you, jason, on the idea of viability. if you do not win. >> right. >> at least one or two of those first four, south carolina, new hampshire, iowa and nevada, you will not have the fundraising momentum to be able to compete literally a month later in california. california has moved up. don't we have to start talking

about that idea of being able to be a monster fund-raiser and to be able to win early? you can't wait on amy clobutar. >> i think it skews the race and makes it top heavy and you don't have candidates who have the chance to grow. my thought is this. california being really key here, right? that supposedly ends up helping out someone like camilla harris. i talked to people in florida, virginia, what's the most important constituency in 2020, black women? i've heard plenty of black women say, if a black woman is not on this ticket, i'm not voting. what happens if camila harris stumbles? where else are they going to surge to consider if not as a contender, then at least as a vp pick. that's why people like ayana presley or stacey abrams have to be taken into consideration.

they can't relegate black women to a consolation prize. >> e.j. dionne, they can't run two white guys. the fact that you have joe biden talking to beat tow o'rourke and saying they could be a ticket, i find it hard to understand how you get voters of color if you have two white men. >> if you look at the 2018 elections, it's remarkable how many women got elected to the house of representatives as democrats, so i agree. i think most democrats, if a white candidate is the number one on this ticket, i think they -- a white male, they will be looking for a woman or an african-american or both. when you hear a lot of people kick around tickets, that's why camila harris's name gets mentioned a great deal, but i want to go back to something important that beth said i think about beto which is because he

created this national fundraising base, he could go out as somebody i know has suggested to him and say, look, i'll get in if i can raise $100 million in 100 days. he can raise a lot of money very fast because of the existing fundraising base he has and we can argue correctly that politics depends too much on money, but guess what? politics does depend on money. he can raise it m a grassroots way. that may be his biggest advantage in this race. >> we're out of time. we have a cute little interactive here. can you quickly show me biden favorability and bernie sanders favorability? they were the top two. if you go to joe biden here, the black means that he's very favorable. the blue means mostly favorable. let's show bernie sanders. these are the top two. what was the viability index on the two of them and the thoughts on them when you were in iowa? >> people definitely are excited about biden.

he's going to keep that field in some degree frozen in place until he announces a decision. he has a little bit of time to get in if he wants to. bernie, on the other hand, no. people do not have a loyalty to him in iowa that they had in 2016. that's my impression. it's -- those folks were very excited about him in 2016. they want to look around at other candidates. >> they're shopping. >> they're looking for something. >> democrats like newness. thank you very much. jason and e.j. will be back in the next hour. more "am joy" after the break. (grandma) nooooooo... (dad) nooooooo... (dog) yessssss.... (vo) quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is two times more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. (boy) hey look, i got it. bounty, the quicker picker upper.

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in the oval office a few moments ago. >> that's right. >> very fun. i got to see a little bit of things here so thank you. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. what do you love about being president? so when you get up in the morning you say, i get to go do this, what do you love? >> my people love the job i'm doing. >> you have such energy for this. >> my choice. >> you do. not every president would have worked six and seven days out on a campaign -- >> how does it feel to be awesome? good morning and welcome to "am joy." as donald trump's legal woes multiply, with now three federal separate criminal inquiries into him and his associates -- trump's lawyer was sentenced to three years in prison and went public directly implicating his former boss in a scheme to break campaign finance laws and yet fox news anchor sat down with

trump and served up a heaping helping of softballs but even in his safe space at fox trump couldn't completely escape news of his legal troubles. >> why did you hire michael cohen? he was known as a fixer. that was his title. >> very low level work. >> he did more public relations than he did law. >> why did you need him? >> he was okay on television, but years ago, many years like 12, 13 years ago he did me a favor. >> likely even more jarring for the maga faithful, one fox contributor, judge andrew napolitano veered way off the script on the kirby couch. >> a very, very telling statement came out of the judge's mouth yesterday the judge finding that the president ordered and paid for michael cohen to commit a crime. that is very telling. >> what crime? >> the intentional deception and failure to report campaign payments. >> but donald trump -- but donald trump has said -- >> joining me now is author and

media analyst eric poehler and msnbc contributor gabriel sherman. are we seeing sort of a disturbance in the force game? some people at fox can't stay on the talking points. >> i love that where steve dousy was shocked. he was like -- there was like a glitch in the matrix and suddenly like truth came through and he said, what crime had he committed? so i think there are moments but i think ultimately, you know, the network is still behind him. the question is when did the audience turn on trump? this is a ratings game for fox. >> sure. >> if they start to see the ratings erode, you'll see more and more hosts break with the president. >> let's see steve dousy with judge napolitano. one more little clip. >> donald trump has said that that was not a campaign violation because it wasn't involving the campaign, it was a damage control payment. >> unfortunately the president wasn't in the courtroom and the people who were, the federal prosecutors who had a statement from david pecker, the guy that

owns. >> national enquirer. >> national enquirer said it was for the campaign. the prosecutors said it was for the campaign. michael cohen said it was for the campaign. >> i wonder, eric, when the viewers of fox news hear that or hear shep smith who breaks it down and keeps it real, is that something they view as their network being fair and balanced or is this something that they just utterly reject and ultimately management says do less of that? >> i think they utterly reject it. the whole idea of fox news, you hear this over and over again. the problem for trump is fox isn't going to be enough. sentencing judges don't care what fox news thinks. grand jurys don't care what fox news thinks. democratic chair men don't care. we're entering a whole new dimension and 2019 is going to be much more of a legal battle versus a political partisan battle. fox news is good on the partisan, mudslinging stuff. judge na politan mow is off script because he's a judge who

kind of understands the law. everyone else, there's no defense that they've come up with that makes any sense for any of this russia stuff. >> i want to bring in charlie sykes. you were on conservative talk radio for a long time. you know how exacting conservative audiences can be if you veer off script and you don't tell them what they want to hear. i wonder what you think about whether or not fox news does have space to at some point inject a little bit of the reality of donald trump's situation because it's very difficult to hide how much jeopardy he is increasingly in. >> that is a very, very good question because i think that increasingly a lot of conservatives think of the conservative media as their safe space, a phrase you used. they don't want to hear this necessarily and fox news has to look over its shoulder because there are other even more pro trump networks out there. >> right. >> but i do think -- but i do think that was it eric who said that fox news is not enough? it's not enough because here's the president who has really,

you know, tried to create an alternative reality around all of this and fox news has contributed to creating this alternative reality bubble. but, you know, facts are stubborn things and reality does intrude and you are starting to see some cracks here, but it is interesting that how does donald trump react to all of these threats? it's to go back into his warm, fuzzy, safe space and, you know, engage in these incredibly cling worthy interviews. that's only going to get him so far. >> we've been here before, actually. at the end of the bush presidency after katrina where just -- it was clear to everyone, even republicans, that it was a disaster. fox news basically almost stopped covering the white house. they did some stories, but they basically shifted the focus and they did other memes like war on christmas. at some point they may have to stop covering trump so heavily and find other stories because the audience just doesn't want to hear objectively bad news.

>> one of the things that you see in that very vein is that they focus on immigration, right? >> yeah. >> they focus on something that triggers their -- >> brown people's storming the country because they stopped covering the caravan. interestingly enough apparently it stopped arriving. you still have people like tucker carlson who's been hitting that one drum of demographic change is scary and that's what he's been doing. here's a little bit of tucker. >> we have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poorer, dirtier and divided. >> this is their strategy. keep on harping on that. that has caused some backlash too. pacific life has pulled ads because of that comment. >> right. that's what they do well. they smear. they do the hate mongering. they do fear. they don't do legal defense very well. we saw two new polls in the last 24 hours. they don't believe trump on the russia. there's been an 18 month trump

fox news hoax campaign. none of that stuff plays outside the bubble. that's the problem they have in 2019. >> you know this audience very well as i said before. one of the other things that says to work or be tried is cultural grievance and this idea that -- >> yes. >> it is all a conspiracy not just against trump but by extension against conservatives. the left hates conservatives and that's the reason they're trying to investigate donald trump. donald trump going after "saturday night live" which is an odd thing to do to keep on -- he's obviously watching "saturday night live" and he -- it really upsets him that they make fun of him. i put that up to say that i've heard this for very many years, this idea among the right where they say comedy is biased against conservatives and, therefore, when people are making fun of someone like donald trump by extension they're making fun of the right. that is a way to defend trump even against lying and criminality. >> yeah. there's two things. yes. the distraction, like almost like the dog with the squirrel.

oh, let's look over here at hillary's e-mails or these dark, dirty people coming across the border. it is extraordinary how the people on the right played the victim card. i never thought the conservative movement would describe themselves as victims and donald trump plays this blaming the problems on the other but also saying that attacks on him are attacks on you, which is why he plays this cultural grievance. so, for example, when he criticizes, you know, his critics, watch how he pivots to say this is not about me. they are insulting you. they're coming for you. this is an assault on your values. and that, of course, has resonated. this is one of the reasons, you know, this was one of the themes of the trump administration -- i mean, the trump campaign and the trump administration and also this belief that donald trump himself can never fail. he can only be betrayed or undermined. >> yeah. >> the buck never stops with

donald trump and you're going to see that theme a lot. >> you know, gabe, i'm curious to see again how long the fox news establishment, roger aisles w -- roger ales was very good at that. rush limbaugh it was the same thing. they're coming after you, they, that amorphous they is out to get you. fox news did hire some people who still want to be journalists, right? >> yeah. >> chris wallace who often is in that pivot position of being doing conservative tv but also doing journalism, here he is again. i wonder how long this kind of thing can survive. take a listen. >> michael flynn, president says, you know, mueller says he lies. flynn said he didn't lie but what he neglects to mention is that the president fired him three weeks after he became the national security advisor. why did he fire him? for lying. so the president fired the man for lying who he's now defending against lying. >> i'm always

dichotomy, right? chris wallace is going to do that. i wonder how long the new management at fox will tolerate -- is that something they encourage? >> one of the changes in the roger ales era, a comment like that would have gotten someone taken off the air. in the post ales era they go where the audience goes. they allow moments like that to happen because the ratings are good. there's not the authoritarian top down. a young reporter criticized sarah palin and that young person was pulled off the air. the mourdocks are primarily concerned with money and the money is pouring in. >> i wonder when you extrapolate from something like that to sinclair which is doing a completely different thing which is broader than what fox is doing. they're feeding direct propaganda into the homes of people into their traffic and weather today. that is a much more ominous development. >> people saw how much money you can make from fox and if you are

a radical idea owe log like the owners of sinclair, let's take this to the local stations. let's infiltrate local news. polling shows people actually admire and respect local news. >> right. >> they trust it. >> yes. >> anything on local news they're more likely to trust. that has been another in. sinclair ran into a problem. they had to make an apology. they're always seeing the bumps along the way and they don't know how this is going to play out. >> that is the question, charlie. >> absolutely. >> and also, you know, speaking of this pattern that we've been describing, the shutdown of the weekly standard -- >> right. >> -- on friday is really part of all of this. really rather extraordinary that one of the very, very few independent trump skeptical publications on the right has basically been, well, victim of ritualized murder by the owners and how ironic that just as the trump presidency appears to be imploding that this very, very

important dissenting independent fact-based voice on the right has been silenced. >> it is an interesting development. thank you, guys. eric poehler and gabriel sherman. well, trump is now promising really good health care. less than 24 hours after an activist republican judge went after obamacare. more on that next. and saying, "really?" so capital one is building something completely new. capital one cafes. inviting places with people here to help you, not sell you. and savings and checking accounts with no fees or minimums. because that's how it should be. you can open one from right here or anywhere in 5 minutes. seriously, 5 minutes... this is banking reimagined. what's in your wallet? when your blanket's freshness fades before the binge-watching begins... that's when you know, it's half-washed. next time, add downy fabric conditioner for up to 7 days of downy freshness.

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i believe we're going to get really good health care. exciting things happened over

the last 24 hours. if the republicans and democrats get together, we are going to end up with incredible health care, which is the way it should have been from day one. >> okay. you won't be surprised to find out that that's not true. the affordable care act is still the law of the land and there are no signs that congress plans to redo health care from scratch. what trump was referring to was the surprise ruling friday night perfectly timed to disrupt the final day of obamacare open enrollment in which a conservative federal judge in texas declared that the affordable care act is unconstitutional despite the supreme court ruling six years ago to uphold the aca. this could put the health care law on track to wind up right back in the high court again before an even more conservative bench. joining me now, jonathan cohn of the "huffington post", perry bacon jr. of 538.com and jonathan i'm going to start with you. we started during the "rachel

maddow show." have you had time to digest this? >> the ruling the first time we looked at it friday night, it looked kind of bananas, which is -- and i use that phrase because in the two days since i've read a lot of the commentary from a lot of the legal experts and actually a lot of conservative experts have looked at it and said, this ruling is bananas. that's a direct quote from the guy who filed the last lawsuit against the affordable care act. >> right. >> it doesn't make a lot of sense. it basically says we need to obey -- we have to respect the will of congress, what congress said back in 2010, even though congress changed its mind in 2017 and, again, people know this is all about the basis of the case is the individual mandate, the penalty. that's now gone. can the law stand or fall? whether -- you know, what happens with the case is hard to say. i mean, you know, this is a fairly farfetched legal argument. it's hard to imagine a circuit court upholding it. it's even harder to imagine john

roberts who had two chances to vote against the affordable care act voting against it. you know, it's not a guarantee. that's the thing. now the possibility is out there. >> that's the thing, perry bacon jr. we've been talking about the affordable care act for eight years now. as the law has gotten more popular. it has a 53 to 40 favorable ruling. as the law has gotten more unpopular, that hasn't changed the messaging. republicans more than 50 votes to try to overturn it, they've consistently tried to gut it. this is their thing to try to get rid of it. maybe it's my cynicism, but the courts are packed with republican judges who simply think exactly like the base of the party. >> right. i think you think about how much mitch mcconnell focused on judicial appointments to the exclusion of everything else. that is his big priority. the reason for that is you're likely to see more venue shopping.

let's find the judge who is like us. conservatives targeted this judge, used to work for john cornyn. as long as john roberts is in the court, you have four democratic votes plus roberts. it will ultimately stand up, but i think we're now in almost year nine of obamacare resistance. >> yes. >> you have states won't expand medicaid, states won't use marketplaces. all of these lawsuits. i think you'll see this continue. we might be in year 12, year 13. the republicans now know they probably can't repeal this through congress because it's unpopular. they're going to keep looking for the courts to knock down obamacare for them. >> wendel potter, i want to go to sort of another issue here which is that you've got republicans, someone who has described this ruling as the dog that caught the car. you have on the one hand acti activist republicans don't believe in regulating the insurance markets. they believe the insurance companies should be able to charge people higher premiums if

they want to. they don't believe in the idea of this at all. on the other hand, you have people who have to legislate who they don't have the luxury of being ideological. they may vote to overturn the affordable care act but they do so when they know it won't happen, right? let me show you that dichotomy of susan collins. here's what she said about the aca and this ruling earlier today. >> i think this will be overturned on appeal. >> you do? >> i do. >> in the supreme court or in the fifth circuit or where do you -- >> i'm not sure where it will occur, but there's no reason why the individual mandate provision can't be struck down and keep all of the good provisions of the affordable care act. >> at least for now susan collins on the record saying that she thinks this will be overturned until it's politically expedient to change her mind. now you have the most radical member of the trump administration, steven miller, who was on cbs this morning and here were his thoughts. >> so to be clear there, you're

predicting that this goes to the supreme court and that the supreme court ultimately strikes down? >> i believe that's the likeliest outcome because obamacare has always been dicho. people don't want to say they're against the pre-existing conditions. people like steven miller are like, yeah, kill the whole law. >> senator collins has a much better understanding of how our health care system operates, that's one thing. i think the senator is hoping and frankly relying on the fifth circuit to say save republicans by themselves. the fifth circuit judge is a clinton appointee. the chances of it being over turned is much greater. i think that's probably the case. whether it reaches the supreme court, we'll just have to see. but i think that increasingly republican lawmakers and certainly republican voters are beginning to understand that we can't go back to where we were. in fact, a significant

percentage of republicans are saying we need to go much further and maybe even embrace medicare for all types of system. that's one thing we're going to be seeing is that more -- and i think one of the problems with the republicans is that they were misreading a lot of the polls. it has been unpopular, the aca in the past, but a lot of that unpopularity is that did not go far enough. it left insurance companies more or less still running our health care system. i think that we're going to be seeing when the new congress is sworn in, it's going to be a move not only to preserve the affordable care act but also to move beyond that. >> and, jonathan cohn, you were nodding there. you think this might trigger expansion of the law? >> that might be the ultimate effect. if you rewind the tape to when they wrote the affordable care act, why did they settle on this kind of system? the logic was it had some republican ideas. there was a version of it in massachusetts that mitt romney, a republican governor had signed, and there was a hope that by kind of incorporating

some kind of republican ideas, trying to get some republican cooperation in 2009, that that would sort of create a little bit of a ground swell and make it easier to pass the law and easier to implement it. we know the very opposite happened. republicans had been at war with this from day one and it has not stopped. so the next time democrats get a chance to do health care legislation, they're going to look at the landscape. they're going to remember this history. they're going to say, there's no point in trying to sort of compromise with the republicans or take the ideas. we're just going to do what we think is best, whether that's medicare for all or expanding government programs, i think you're going to see that that's going to be the lesson of all of these court systems, of all of these fights. trying to cooperate, trying to find a middle ground, it just doesn't pay off. >> perry bacon jr., i recall the stories you did going to kentucky, people saying i hate obamacare but i like connect, the version in kentucky that is

obamacare. is that dynamic still at play? the base of the republican party, do they still hate the idea of having health care? >> you saw these ballot initiatives in utah, idaho, in conservative places medicaid expansion was a big issue. medicaid expansion, people getting health care is popular among republican voters, too. that's a big thing. it's republican voters, if you had a vote in most states would be favorable to medicaid expansion and the other parts of the aca. republican activists, the koch foundation, those people are opposed to this. there's a real world effectiveness which is as long as the activists are pushing this way, you had the last day of obamacare enrollment. you have 14 states, places like texas, alabama where you can't get on medicaid still so i still think the republican effort here is probably unpopular and not getting very popular. it's still going to meaningfully

mean fewer people have health insurance than they otherwise would have. >> absolutely. wendel, very quickly. let's entertain this idea of medicare for all. the lead line is it's completely unviable, too expensive and republicans are messaging against it. it was done against andrew gillum and others to say now democrats want pure socialism. is that true? is it not viable? what do you make of this idea for all? >> no, in fact, the reason -- the fact that they're pushing back against this shows that this has growing public support for it. it's scaring the insurance industry which is largely behind a lot of the propaganda. it's not only viable, it's a matter of when, it's not if. if you look at the current system and project out ten years, this is a system we can't afford and you can save trillions of dollars by moving to a medicare for all types system. >> we'll have more of that discussion because it is bubbling up. it is out there. jonathan cohn, wendel podder,

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holiday -- or the time of year for holiday parties all throughout cable news. we have our party last night. not to be outdone this morning the kids on the curvy couch did their secret santa exchange. take a look. >> did you do it? >> i did it. i went for it. all in. oh, it's the trumpy bear. yes. >> more than the trumpy bear. i'm sitting there watching fox, i see this. >> this guy advertises all the time. he has the trump bear, the red tie. i'm thinking maga bear. you could bring it home to quinny. >> my daughter could use it. >> it has the red tie. >> very soft. >> when you see the commercials you don't think it's real at first. >> how is that a real product? we need to have a discussion about trumpy bear. all right. more "am joy" after the break.

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we're going to do whatever is necessary to build the border wall to stop this ongoing crisis of illegal immigration. >> that means -- >> absolutely. >> the white house trotted steven miller back onto the sunday shows to deliver an ominous message that the government is willing to shut down the government this week if donald trump doesn't get his

border wall that mexico was supposed to pay for. joining me now jennifer rubin, back with me e.j. dionne and michelle bernard. jennifer, i'll start with you first. steven miller, i think it's fair to say he's probably the most radical member of the administration left there especially on immigration. back out on the sunday shows to defend those policies and to say they'll shut down the government if they don't pay for the border wall. >> they should have had chuck schumer and nancy pelosi on the set to explain to him why that is disastrous and built on a mountain of lies. trump is backing them into a terrible corner because they are trapped. none of them, even the ones who are leaving, don't want to shut down the government. the one who shuts down the government is always the loser. it's an axiom of american politics. they will eventually have to reopen it and they're not getting their $5 billion. all he is doing is painting trump into a corner and saying

things that raise expectations on the part of the base. so i don't know how they're going to get themselves out of it, but democrats at this point can wash their hands and say, you guys figure it out. you're in charge. >> e.j. dionne, at one point chuck schumer and some democrats were willing to compromise and give for border security which trump could have used to build the wall that mexico was supposed to pay for. he could have done it. now even chuck schumer, who tends to be a compromiser is saying, no. you get nothing. so i wonder where this goes. if republicans can't do it themselves while they're still in charge, as jennifer said, then what's the point of all of this? >> well, democrats i think still have on the table 1 billion, 1.3 billion for border security that just doesn't happen to be labeled the wall that mexico was supposed to pay for, but the republicans -- politico had a very interesting story this week that republicans in the house

really don't want to deal with this. they are proposing a two-week extension, a continuing resolution, something like that, and they want to throw the hot potato at the new speaker, nancy pelosi, and they're trying to persuade trump that's a great way to start the year. you can have a big fight with pelosi. they just don't want to deal with this. >> yeah. >> i think that's the missing part of the story. republicans -- a lot of republicans don't really have any interest in this wall either. >> yeah. you know, i think the surprise they would get, e.j., is nancy pelosi ain't paul ryan. she is a very effective speaker. she knows what she's doing. she just doesn't wear cute coats. she knows what she's doing. >> she showed it in that meeting at the white house. that meeting showed why democrats want to re-elect her or bring her back as speaker. >> yeah, absolutely. michelle, you know, it puzzles me but i guess it shouldn't, the idea that of all of the voices and faces that the administration would want to put out on television to talk about

immigration, picking steven miller is an interesting choice. adam serwer had a point that the cruelty is the point. a lot of what you see by the trump administration is cruelty. demonstrating it, showing it so people can see it and note it. he is sort of the author of that, right? let me let you play one more piece again. let's keep in mind for the audience a 7-year-old girl died this week with dehydration while in the custody of u.s. border patrol. here is steven miller talking immigration a little bit more. >> it's time that both parties had the appropriate level of outrage over the fact that these organizations continue to take advantage -- >> equipped to deal with the record number of families coming across. why aren't they? >> one of the great tragedies that is going on in our country today is the loopholes in our immigration laws and the deficiencies in immigration laws that incentive advise the most vulnerable populations to come

to our country. >> what are your thoughts having that be the message coming out of the trump administration the same week a little girl died. >> what's absolutely horrifying about this is that steven miller by speaking about that issued the way he did on behalf of the administration because you've got to know there is no way the administration sent him out to join fa"face the nation" this morning about what he was going to say. they sanctioned cruelty and they have absolutely no empathy for the fact that people who are going to leave their countries to come to a country where they know no one, they don't know the lifestyle but they know they have to leave because they are trying to get away from the most horrible situations anyone could ever imagine tells us that the country is really in so much trouble. there is no empathy. there is a continual decision to try to do things to, you know, basically tear apart our democracy. i would note there are people reporting, for example, that there is a possible move by this

administration to make people who came here escaping the vietnam war as refugees, you know, eligible to be deported and, again, the belief is steven miller is the face of that. >> i mean, jennifer reuben, on that point, right, you have people from the vietnam war, people who helped american troops, vietnamese people who are in this country now being scheduled eligible for deportation cruelty. this week we saw video of people who are still on the mexico side of the border, families, including children, having numbers written in magic marker on their arms to designate them as a number that are look to go have asylum in this country. we saw border patrol dumping water that was meant for desperate migrants being dumped out on the ground. this just sort of extravagant cruelty is unusual for any administration. for this administration they seem to think it's effective for their base. >> exactly. a couple things. first of all, you would never know from listening to steven miller that they have been in

charge for two years. if there are so many loopholes, why haven't they been closed by a republican congress, republican president. that's nonsense. listen, these people are in the business of cruelty. that's how they whip up the base. that's what the caravan was about. we're tough. we're both under siege but we're going to get back because we have the border security people so we can treat these people miserably. it is i think in large part a reason why they lost the house. this is the kind of stuff that has turned formerly republican women against them. it's not just hispanics, not just people of color but people who have a modicum of compassion, particularly women, men, too, but particularly women who see this. it's needles cruelty. it did result in a tragic death of the girl. they blamed the parents. they take no responsibility once they put these people in custody and then they turn around and they blame the victims.

so i think the big take away from this year is that trump and his base are in a closed universe. they are a significant segment unfortunately of the country. they dominate the republican party but they convince no one outside it and they are beginning to, i think, bleed support within it. so as infuriating as it is for us to sit here and listen to that, there is some solace in knowing that no one believes what he is saying who is otherwise, you know, not a trumpy and in the future i think they're going to have to pay a price once again in 2020 for this kind of behavior. >> e.j. dionne, what happened to the caravan? the caravan was the most exis tensi -- existential threat to the people and it has disappeared. >> this is all -- a lot of this is a show for trump and he believes passionately that the

issue he can always fall back on to mobilize his own people is immigration and cruelty can work. but i think as a political matter, not as a moral matter, but i think jenn made the central point. in this election there is real evidence that this hard, cruel line hurt the republicans in an awful lot of suburban congressional districts. and i think unfortunately for the country as trump gets into more and more trouble as these investigations close in on him he will turn more and more to the base as his -- the last line of defense against the congress and so we may be seeing more of this because he's not going to be trying to persuade middle of the road voters, he's just going to try to hang on to enough republicans to survive, perhaps survive impeachment. >> yes.

>> so i think there's going to be more statements just like we saw today from steven miller. >> hey, joy -- >> go on. >> i just wanted to add. just imagine though what it says about what the -- donald trump thinks about his base. we've seen what he believes, and unfortunately maybe the facts will bear this out. his base is scared of anyone who is not visibly white. and, again, we also see that the trump administration and the republican party that has become the trump republican party will do absolutely anything to win. so they gear -- they sort of gear up the fears of their base talking about this caravan. they have state sanctioned tv over at fox news doing the same thing and then the day after the mid term elections we hear nothing about it from the president and we hear nothing about the caravan again from fox news. it is a very, very disgusting view of the american public and unfortunately it appears too often to win. >> yeah. absolutely. to the point that they -- the reason to do it, jennifer, is that they do believe this will

help trump to survive whatever is coming from a legal point of view. i want to play a little bit of rudy giuliani this morning talking about it doesn't appear that donald trump will submit to an interview with robert mueller if asked. that seems to be where this train is going. take a listen. >> special counsel, does he want to interview the president. >> good luck. good luck. after what they did to flynn, the way they trapped him into perjury and no sentence for him? 14 days for papadopoulos? i did better on traffic violations than they did -- >> when you say good luck, no way -- >> over my dead body but, you know, i could be dead. >> your thoughts, jennifer. >> oh, my. what a sad dissent of a human being for a moment. this is what this man is going to be known for, rudy referring to. listen, trapped into perjury i suppose in the trump administration is having fbi agents come to your office and ask you questions. that's the trap that he is

speaking of. but of course these people are constitutionally incapable of telling the truth so any questioning i suppose in that sense is a trap. at this point i don't know whether roberts mueller needs to talk to trump or wants to talk to trump. if he wants to push this, i think ultimately he could prevail even with this supreme court, but i don't think that's necessarily at this stage what he wants. he has trump's written answers. he has him locked in and i would bet the farm that he has people in evidence that are going to contradict those answers that trump put in writing to him. he's got mounds of other evidence so at this point whether he sits for an interview, whether he doesn't sit for an interview is immaterial. for a guy who wanted to talk to mueller and thought he could tell the truth, donald trump looks like a chicken. >> memo to rudy, you can't be trapped into perjury if you simply tell the truth. >> right. yeah. yeah. and there you have it. jennifer is going to be back. e.j., michelle, thank you both.

have a wonderful rest of the day. >> thank you. up next, yes, it's coming. we're going to tell you who won the week. and just like you, the further into winter we go, the heavier i get. and while your pants struggle to support the heavier you, your roof struggles to support the heavier me. [laughter] whoo. [crash] and your cut-rate insurance might not pay for this. so get allstate, you could save money and be better protected from mayhem like me. mayhem is everywhere. so get an allstate agent. are you in good hands?

>> it's time for the question everyone is waiting for. who won the week? >> robert mueller for two reasons. the poll would suggest the attempts are falling short and because we got a sense of the scope and sale of all of the investigations that are targeting the trump administration. it 4es it as not an outliar. >> and whatever discrediting attempts they have made has failed. it should continue. yeah. i think it's a pretty wise choice. >> let's go onto jason johnson. if you say terry i'm going to cut your microphone. >> i'm just warning you.

>> yeah. she a wonderful example of how everyone and you still win. people hated him as a real estate when he poisoned even more. they hated him in the state senate. they hated him in congress. they hated him at the consumer protection bureau. they didn't want them to be able to protect themselves. he assembled himself of being chief of star. this man won the week. he called trump a terrible person and still got to job. >> yeah. that's a very very excellent point. i love him. don't call me. nobody tweet me. he is a great guy. that's a wise clois. it will be difficult determine who is correct and who is wrong.

who won? >> for a change the joits senate. one was to condemn the saudis for the opinion writer. it was a rebuff of trump and his service who came out to try the say there was no smoking gun. it was probably mike pompeo. it turned into a genocide dal disasters. they badly want to support it because the sauds are in charge there. the yielts senate took back some power which is important to do. the law making power has been frittered away and the declaring war power has been really

furthered away. they said we are no longer going to support this. come the following year we'll see whether trump is able to fund this or support this in any way. it was a first for many of these people and actually repuffing him on something he wanted. if you do it once or twice and pretty soon you're like an equal branchover congress. >> yeah. >> it's like magic. this is something a lot are passionate about. is love of the saudis the breaking point? very quickly, yes or no? >> i am skeptical about it.

>> they will sell out again and sell out the american people. >> what do you think? >> i think democrats would be smart to start putting pressure on those running for reelection in blue and purple states in 2020. susan collins, gardener, those people are the weak links. it could be the key to whether you could see the senate move aside from donald trump. >>. >> so i was going to declare you the winner. in the holiday season i am going to say all three of you are correct this time, just the once. never will it happen again. you're all right. no one is wrong.

thank you guys very much. have a wonderful rest of the day. more after the break. you're in the business of helping people. we're in the business of helping you. business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it.

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