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good day to all of you. high noon here in the east. 9:00 a.m. out west. fighting words after at least six trump entities come under fire. the personal attorney giving his line of defense. >> it's not a crime. it's in the a crime. if it's not a campaign expense it can't be a campaign contribution. >> whether it happened or didn't happen it's not illegal. >> they will try to go look for unpaid parking tickets. >> do americans believe the president is telling the truth about the rush that probe? new numbers just out today. obamacare redo, whether washington can come up with a fix after a judge's ruling friday. new numbers when asked if they think the president has been honest and truthful about the

russia investigation. 62% no. the president is not telling the truth. 94% of democrats do not believe the president however a majority of republicans, 70% do believe the president. when asked if they had given them any doubts half the respondents said yes and 44% saying no. the fallout widens after trump's former lawyer insisted then candidate trump directed him to break finance law by making hush money payments. anxiously waiting. the incoming chair of the house sending his target on trump's former fixer. he will tell the american public

what he has been saying without interfering bt mueller investigation. healthcare at the sent over of a debate about preexisting conditions. democrats a judge for ruling the affordable care act is unconstitutional. he says this is what he plans to do next. >> it is an awful ruling. we'll fight this tooth and nail. the first thing we are going to do when we get back there in the senate is urge, put a vote on the floor urging an intervention in the case. there are going to be a good number of republicans who are going to really have to make a decision whether to join us or face very severe consequences. >> as friday's deadline approaches the man credited to be behind the immigration policies is not backing down.

>> what is the president's plan? >> we lo do whatever we need to do -- if it comes to it, absolutely. >> so much to talk about. let's get to this new reaction of the president's attorney to micha michael cohen this week. what is he saying? >> a lot of issues facing the white house and one of them is the legal issues the president faces. he has been talking out about the relationship with the president and claiming that the president directed him to commit a felony to two women that

claimed sexual affairs the president says did not happen. today his friend and current outside attorney was taking on michael cohen in very personal terms they have saying it is not an investigation where it will be there. here is jugiuliani going on. >> the man is pathetic. that is a lawyer and he says he -- he directed me to do it. my goodness. he's a lawyer. he's the guy you depend onto determine whether you should do it this way or that way. whether you're donald trump or me or you. >> he said he knew it was wrong. >> the president said it was false and he said it was false.

the man lies to fit the situation. it's not a crime, george. paying $130,000 to stormy and paying 100,000 to the other is not a crime. >> so there's a lot there. they knowledged the payments were made. they say it was a legal act and not relate today the campaign. they talked about the decent grags saying he was not defending the president when he was taping then president donald trump. it is at a time when as you indicated polling suggests there are many more who have doubts about the president's truthfulness on this. he was out there trying to swing the bat on this.

>> thank you so much. gabe sherman is here and john. john, to you first. let's talk about the last point as evidence by the john edwards case. >> look, the john edwards case ended in a hung jury. he was not convicted. the argument was whether or not the page was maede for covering up an affair from the family. this is a different set of circumstances. they clearly had a plan in order to deal with these as the election was getting underway. the bottom line is they are the

ones going to determine whether a case can be brought. he is playing the legal equivalent of what trump said which is i can shoot somebody in the middle of fifth avenue and not lose any support. he will say anything that the president has done is fine. he may call michael cohen pathetic. if you look at his representations he has competition from giuliani. >> nicely said there. he was also asked whether there will be more q and a webetween e president and robert mueller. >> is it possible the president will talk to robert mueller? >> the agreements are having discussions if there are any further follow-ups. there's been no change in that agreement. i have to say quite honestly watching some of the things they are doing like letting cohen say he was fiercely loyal to donald

trump. he was never fiercely loyal to donald trump. >> what does it look like? is it certain it might be answers? >> it is not certain. that's what they are talking about now. that was the result of months of negotiation about how he would answer questions, what questions he might answer. that list on the dealt with the collusion question, not the obstruction investigation. he has also said he is not inclined to have trump sit down face to face. it still leaves a question of will there be follow-up answers or questions on the separate investigation or will mueller decide he doesn't need to talk to trump anymore and this first round of questions submitted on thanksgiving is enough for now. >> so gabe, what do you know about the president as to how

satisfied he is with the way giuliani is handling all of the public messaging or the response to all of the negative headlines? do you have any insight on that? >> in the past it has been up and down. you know, rudy has a tendency to be an unguided missile on live tv. he has said ning in tthings in that is beyond where the president wanted him to be. it is a case where he is back on television recently. he was basically gone for much of the final stretch of the midterms and had been completely banished from television. so now that that is over and we are moving into what appears to be more of an end game we see rudy out there again. trump really feels that the only defense that is -- the best

defense is his own which is why we continue to see him being his own spokesperson. >> yeah. six of them just this morning. john, also the question they will go ahead with impeachment. >> i think a major thing right now is to let mr. mueller do his job. let him complete his job. then we take a look at what he says and go from there. i think it's premature right now to do that. >> and you know, there has been a lot of back and forth. the fact is they have to walk a fine line between working on the policies that got them back into leadership and then worrying about possible impeachment. how do they thread that needle? >> first of all it is pretty clear to everyone that democrats are not making a tonov of polic.

you're not getting a lot between the republicans and senate and this republican white house. they are make messages points but it's not likely they will be making a lot of policy. second thing is as we saw on our poll this morning, 55% of americans say they support the idea of house oversite investigations of president trump and his administration. i think they are not going to hold back on that front. i don't think it is an either or question. i do believe that democratic leaders understand that is where it is headed. they don't want to appear too eager for it. so it's actually happening. i don't think impeachment will be stoppable by democratic leaders. i talked to daifrvis.

he thinks some will join with democrats in that front and it's not impossible given what mueller finds and how political circumstances deteriorate that it's not out to have the question that a senate could convict on impeachment charges. it is a heavy uphill task. we'll have to see what mueller lays down. >> certainly. it will be more friendly to point donald trump. what about what includes a possible government shutdown. is the president imping for one to happen or you think he is looking for a compromise? >> as we saw in his meeting with pelosi the other day the president did something that almost no one does in washington. i guess we could siay no one dos

which is to claim ownership. altered political landscape into which donald trump will be heading into after january. i really think that, you know, trump, this was a lot of bluster. at the enof td of the day i don think he wants a shutdown. >> what do you think? shutdown or continuing ref lugs? >> even trump had some luck. so he is putting congressional republicans in a really tough spot. i think republicans might be inclined to accept the democrats deal for border funding. it is really just the president who is saying no. we need 5 billion.

i think he would be happy because he could say to his owners look, i'm negotiating for you. this is border security. he is going to be getting a lot of pressure from both to make sure it doesn't happen. >> yes. >> and he has forshadowed. he said even if i don't get the money from democrats i will build the wall. much of it is already built. that is the exit ramp that he has already signalled that he may take. >> except much of the wall hasn't already been built. >> that is correct. >> that is what he -- >> okay. >> thank you all. appreciate it. >> indict or not indict the president? what might robert mueller do? i will ask my legal panel in a few minutes.

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we'll sit down with the d-- democrats and we will get great health care for our people. >> promising to get what he calls great health care by sitting down with democrats. we have debbie here. always good to see you. thank you for joining me. is there an appetite among the democrats to sit down and redo

obamacare? >> no. i think what you see right now is outrage that the week before christmas that we would see it that is terrifying americans. even the administration has told people nothing will change right now. they know it will be in the court. is obamacare perfect? no. even republicans coming out of the election where people were terrified, the reason we are here is because justice department refused to defense preexisting conditions in the current law. >> in terms of numbers i want to reference a wall street journal poll. in the midterms we saw 57% saying democrats would better protect people with preexisting conditions. so does this at all tie the hands of democrats in terms of how much they can work with

republicans on this? >> i am someone that says we always need to work together. so this isn't a political game. this isn't a war of words. i spent the night in an emergency room. while i was scared to death person after person kept coming in and telling me how frightened they were. we have to figure out they need to not be worried about whether they can go. >> i'm sorry to hear about that. >> he's okay. he's john. >> what about more voters saying they will vote for democrats in 2020. you 5% more people that plan to reelect the president. the difference between those

that approve and disapprove, do you think he benefits from this investigation fatigue when you six major investigations underway it's not like he had two years ago. so how do democrats find a balance? >> i will say first of all i have said for two years said he could get elected and he could get reelected. i think the democrats now have to produce. we have a fundamental responsibility to protect our f religion. you just talked about health care. people are scared about their health care, the escalated prescription costs, the broken infrastructure. democrats have to produce. when we take over and they see the democrats controlling the

house we had to move some legislation and do some things that instead of war of words are helping the american people, working men and women who want some help. >> what about the investigations though? i'm curious if they are telling you it is just noise. could they make heads or tails of all of it? >> remember i have the largest muslim population in the country. those people are scared to death. i also have people worried about bad trade deals. people are worried about the economy and their jobs. that's what they want to see us work together. they don't want to see this president violating or attacking people because of what their religion is or quite frankly lord knows people can get mad but they want to free media in

this country. >> here is what cohen's former attorney had to say. let's listen to that. >> this is the top law enforcement officer in our system of government calling somebody who decides to tell the government a truth a rat. that's the language of a mobster, not of the president. >> first thing that came to me, is this a scene of the departed? does it concern you at all? >> all of this concerns me. in many ways he is a teflon president. i believe that we need to let this continue. we need to get the facts and when we get the facts we need to hold people accountable. i think first and foremost it's also an important role.

>> all right. thank you. i know i will speak with you again soon. wish your husband the best for us. >> thank you. giuliani making his case, breaking it down argument by argument next with my legal panel. with the united explorer card, i get rewarded wherever i go. going out for a bite. rewarded. going new places. anytime. rewarded! learn more at the explorer card dot com. if you want to get the most details about your family history. my pie chart showed that i'm from all over europe, but then it got super specific. i learned my people came from

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>> rudy giuliani is doubling down that his cliept did nothing illegal. >> collusion is not a crime. it was over with by the time of the election. if it's not a campaign expense it can't be a contribution. >> it would be clearly illegal. >> no. it would not be. >> this is why it is so weird, strange. the crime is conspiracy to hack. collusion is not a crime. >> joining me now is nelson cunningham. okay. i'm glad i have two people with experience here. what is your take on all of this? is this investigation weird and strange to giuliani?

>> there is a lot that's weird and strange here. collusion is not a federal crime but all of the activities that might go into collusion, misleading statements, collaborating, directing payments, all of those are federal crimes. the experience to engage with others to do them but there's a lot of drl activity that could zboo collusion. >> let's look into the details. collusion isn't a crime. it goes onto say it was over by the election. bid you admit to collusion? >> first of all what does it matter if it is before or after the election? it is something that no, it doesn't make a difference at all. >> okay. what about the experience over dpsz all that he says he has he

has experience? it leads me to believe that the woman that the president paid to keep their sexual encounters quiet, here is what he says. he will say it in his own words. >> the amunount of money is consistent with harassment. when it's true and you have the money the president had it's a million dollars settlement. when it's a harassment settlement you give them 130 to 150,000. >> he is basically add milting to paying women money. his defense is if it had been more money it would have been

more serious. you're in a death spiral of stupid. this is insanity. >> death spiral of stupid. your take on this? >> i agree. there's a saying i learned. if you have the facts pound the facts. if you don't have to facts pound the law and if you don't have either pound the table. sounds like we heard giuliani doing a lot of table pounding. >> i know you wrote in october and suggested mueller may have subpoenaed the president. giuliani said he has not been seasoned but he doesn't know because it could be under seal. where does that stand? >> first of all that secret case that has been bouncing around for the last several courts, friday was a pretty

consequential day. it was by one side we believed to be the special council and by a mystery witness. 20 reporters showed up to see who showed up for that argument. after a period they were shoed off the floor. the floor was sealed. no one was able to see the lawyers walking in and nobody could see the lawyers walking out. i don't know. that feels to me like litigation involving high profile people. we know ten minutes after that argument was closed down he drove back into his offices. coincidence? doesn't feel like it. >> they did shut down the entire floor. >> i have never heard of that. >> that's what we were saying as well. it says that the trump organization may have overcharged trump's inaugust

yurl. we have not verified this claim. what does this tell you? that that are ready? >> it began at the beginning of the -- after the election where president trump refused to step down. the appearance of impro pryty is whether or not is almost irrelevant. they have involved in the creation and orchestration of the inauguration is what lead to this investigation. here, again, stepping away from the company and from impro pryty would have been the best course. we are in this situation. >> do you think he had just released his tax forms? >> had he just done that that people would have said okay

you're seeing it. >> there would have been more transparency including his tax records. we don't know this. if he had and there's all of these improper connections between trump enterprises we would have learned a lot more or he wouldn't have been so willing or interested. it could go either way. it's the appearance that's really the problem. >> what about the new article? it argues that in order to guarantee that the report is made public robert mueller should try to indict because then the attorney general would have to explain why he chose to prosecute or not prosecute the president. what is your take on that? >> that is a cleverer argument. there are only very limited ways he is get out to the public.

it will go to the acting attorney general and that it's audiotape to whitaker to decide if he will make it public. mueller doesn't even have to indict the president. he could say i would like to indict the president or i would like to forward a response to congress including information about impeachment. if he overrules him that fact must be reported but only at the very end of the investigation. it could be a long time. >> all right. it's good to see you both. i know i'll speak with you again soon. >> thank you. it is one of the most read articles. we'll talk about it next. i just got my cashback match,

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now to a new article. it is titled mounting legal threats as nearly every organization he has lead is under investigation. it looks at the campaign finance investigation, scrutiny of the inaugural economy. let's bring in susan. you are my appointment tv this time. let's talk about the remarkable range of investigations. this says that the mounting inquiries are building into a cascade of legal clal lehalleng.

what would it mean for the country? >> this is going to be completely everything that absorbs donald trump's time. the interesting thread through all of the investigations come down to husband tax returns. you start pulling at one thing and you have to end up look agent everything else. it's very concerning to see what relationships he has potentially with foreign governments as well as what he is doing in his business. it is also important to remember he is still involved with. he did not put this in a blind trust. >> do you think democrats want these investigations, all of these to dominate trump's presidency or does it hurt them with moderate voters that will point fingers and say it has been of your making? >> it is a fantastic question. the answer is nobody knows.

the democrats have an obligation to inves. this president is the most corrupt president in the history of the republic which is saying quite a lot. they have an obligation. what they must not do is turn it into a benghazi or that kind of stuff. it has to be an investigation aped at telling the truth. that is very important to me. i have confidence in the chairs of the committee. i don't know all of the investigations that may happen because i think they get this. this cannot be a politically motivated investigation. it has to be an investigation that is good for the country because we happen to have a crook at the helm. >> as far as otherreaching i think we have seen one place so far that it appears it will be too political and can hurt just the country and the democrats is when we look at the attorney general elect of new york.

she is opening informations, many of which are -- she is in her right to. one stands out as odd. i asked a lot of people about i and they don't get it. she is investigating the meeting with the russians in june of 2016. a lot of people think that's just overreaching. that's part of the mueller investigation and a lot of others that we have to remember it is not -- even though it stands for attorney general it also means aspiring governor. >> yes. >> i have heard that one before. >> the one she is focusing on is more about the trump foundation. >> yes. >> but she -- >> yes. but she added that meeting to her list of things. i find it odd. she could have stayed within her lane and had plenty whether it is the charity, the business etcetera. she shouldn't be crossing into

that. >> i disagree with that and just briefly. it is the insurance policy. if he does the same thing assuming he gets confirmed it is good to have a backstop. >> you the house and senate for that. i just don't see where that's something the intel committee can investigate. >> if it is a state offense. >> yes. >> you're right. >> it is something trump can't pardon. i think he will try to pardon himself it of all of this stuff. >> what about as we look into the probes of the trump organizations? they think they are more of a reflection of opposition to the president than anything else. as the republican here is there

anything that will change their minds? >> i think they are starting to see a few minor cracks. if more allegations come out such as the big one where the president is basically labeled someone who violated campaign finance law, in the case of a felony, i think when you see more and more things come out, if they do they will start having republicans pull away a little bit. there are only -- a lot of them we hear off the record but they stay with him because of his base and they support him. if they start seeing cracks in the president's numbers then they will start becoming more independent. >> i'll start with you. i'm curious about this new poll that's out. a number that stands out here is the one that we'll show in a second. 62% showing that the president has not been honest and truthful. it is up 6 points from august.

34% say he is being honest and truthful. what's the significance of that? >> sit a bad number to start with. this is why it is so important that the house do this with dignity and be careful about this. watergate nixon started off with good numbers. the house of representatives has to make a case to the american people that is fair and thoughtful. it cannot do what those guys did in benghazi. they have to be fair and as nonpartisan as they can be. that number will get worse for trump as it did for nixon. >> okay. i will leave it there unless you have anything to add to that. >> i completely agree with the governor. >> there we go. >> thank you so much.

the john edwards argument the next. but first saturday night live's take on it's a wonderful life trump style. here is the ghost of christmas past. >> i told you, donald, you don't have a press secretary because you weren't legislated president. >> hello mr. trump. >> you look incredible, so healthy and vibrant. >> after we lost the campaign the devil did give me my soul back. excuse me i have to find my husband who i do speak to now. >> great. so hillary is president? >> that's right. in this reality all she had to do to win was visit wisconsin once. >> did they find her e-mails? >> they did. they were all bed, bath and beyond coupons. ♪

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new today, the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, reacting to cohen's sentencing and making payments for alleged affairs to stormy daniels and karen

mcdougal. >> it's not a crime, george. paying 100 whatever thousand to one and the same to another is not a crime. >> charlie is here from the "new york times." you're the perfect one to talk to because you wrote this week how this compares to the other case. tell us how it's different. >> giuliani is perfect for telling us how hush money payments made by a politician could be a transaction that would be subject to contribution limits and disclosure requirements and all the other rules. john edwards paid his pregnant mistress in 2008 and the obama administration justice department moved forward with prosecuting him for that, and a

judge ruled that if, in fact, that was done intended to influence the campaign, in fact, he could be convicted of that. the one rudy giuliani is pegging this to is that case ended in a mistrial as well as an acquittal on one count. so the jury couldn't, on the other counts, make up its mind that facts were proven in this case. there are other things that should give giuliani and his defense team pause. there was not krocorroboration that case. they couldn't say this was to influence the election or not let her story influence the election, it was just the prosecutor's word. here we have cohen, the ami, the

national "national enquirer" pr and probably everyone wasn't agreeing on what was the purpose of these payments. they said, yes, we're talking about the election, not president trump's personal life. >> i want to talk about the timing of the payments and the difference between these two. it's my understanding that john edwards' payments began even before he started a presidential campaign. this was to help pay for the birth, the expenses, child support, if you will, paying this mistress of the mother of his child, and then you look at donald trump's payments. these are the timing of it just before an election for things that allegedly happened, i think, one was stormy daniels. went that like tw2006? and karen mcdougal, 2011. so why you would have to pay for

these things right before an election if it was all about protecting your family. >> that's why the edwards case doesn't open and shut say this is due to a set of facts, the trump set of facts. to what you say about the payments being made before he was running, the last payment made to his mistress is as he was dropping out, when he clearly had no ambition of winning that primary but still was making payments. so that muddied the waters, saying was this a personal transaction to hide it from his wife or was this to prevent the outcome of an election. as you pointed out, payments right before the election was stuff that happened before, so it was a clearer timeline in the edwards case. the bigger takeaway from this is the jury ruling that the facts

didn't meet the standard of a particular case is a different thing than to say the law doesn't require that in general. rudy giuliani is confusing these two cases. >> what does david pecker have that could create serious problems for the president? >> we haven't seen what david pecker told a grand jury specifically, but we imagine it's most likely the same thing that was listed in this non-profit agreement with his company, ami, that he was involved in this meeting with cohen and probably trump in 2015, and that everybody knew this was about influencing the campaign. that was the discussion. the important of that is michael cohen is a liar and everyone knows it on all sides, and he doesn't have very good credibility if he is the sole witness against trump if this were to come to a prosecution some years from now when trump is no longer president. and so having other people who are in the room as well as their paperwork in whatever sort of written contemporaneous

corroboration adds a lot to the president's hand as cohen is not the best witness in the world for the prosecution. >> thank you so much nfor joinig me. a bomb threat is wondering if it could come back to haunt republicans. there's no excuse for what they did to you.

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to tell the truth, brand new msnbc polls on the president and